I read in a earlier post that Ofer considers the Algolith Mosquito to be one of his favorite components, and would like to solicit input from others on the merits of a device like the Mosquito vs. a VP when ones viewing preference is and will increasingly be balanced towards Blu-Ray and HD-DVD content.

Recently I spoke with Algolith directly because I was looking for more information on their Dragonfly video processor. What they told me was that they feel that if your application is more oriented towards Blu-Ray and HD-DVD you really don't need theirs or any other video processor. They feel that I would be better off with a dedicated noise reduction unit like the Mosquito. primarily because with hi-def content the issue isn't scaling and de-interlacing. According to Algolith with HD-DVD and Blu-Rays ability to do 1080/24 from source to display natively, introducing a VP into the path is redundant and of limited or no value. In this scenario the only artifacts left to address are those that can be corrected with a dedicated noise reduction platform like their Mosquito. Obviously it is in Algolith's best interest if the world shared their position on this, but I was wondering for those you own the Mosquito and/or have extensive experience with VP's if you agree with that position.

Well, I'd say it's definitely one of my favorites. I love all my processors (I have 3 in my system now), but the Algolith Mosquito is certainly a favorite.

In the last few weeks (and even months) I've been doing a lot of testing on a host of displays, many of which are FULL HD displays (some for tests, some for "Secrets" and some for the Israeli site I co-own). I have been using various HD sources, using both 1080i and 1080P. I found a few interesting things:
1. Most of my sources deinterlaced 1080i sources quite well indeed!

2. When setting to 1080i (deinterlacing through the display) vs. 1080P (deinterlacing via the source) in almost all cases, I had a very difficult time determining which was which. I also found virtually no deinterlacing artifacts and had a hard time determining when (if at all) the display or source was ever dropping to video...

3. when using a processor, the differences between scaled SDTV vs. unscaled was quite dramatic. The higher the factor between display resolution and source resolution, the more critical the differences in processing.

4. When using a processor, I could find very little difference between display and scaler performance on FULL HD and HD ready displays. It might be more critical on FULL HD front projectors (which I haven't been testing lately), but this is certainly the case on 37-50" flat panel displays.

The type of content I watch in HD is almost exclusively film sources. It's movies and high quality series, so different types of content might yield different results than what I got.

BD and HD DVD content uses 24FPS, a compatible display does wonders with 1080p24/25. If there's no overscan on the display, you basically get dot by dot native rate source. No need to touch it and I doubt that any scaler can improve on it.

I do see compression artifacts on some HD content. It's light, but it's increasingly there. It wasn't there a year or two ago. I guess bitrates are dropping as availability increases.

Processors like the mosquito do very well on SD sources. H264 is a different story, I'm not really sure how the mosquito will handle it. I currently route around my H264 sources (Still waiting for our local satellite company to launch their HD services, which will be H264 based). The Mosquito was designed for MPEG2, and while it will reduce mosquito noise on H264, it will have a harder time with block noise (H264 adds variable sized blocks).

In any case, as a whole, if I weigh the importance of MPEG artifact removal against HD processing, I would have to say that the former makes a more critical PQ improvement than the latter simply because most good brand name displays do HD processing quite well. With BD and HD DVD offering 1080P24, and with most new displays coming out as FULL HD and 1080P24 compatible - processing these is becoming less and less important.

Ofer,

I appreciate you sharing your hands on experience with us` I hope that others contribute to this thread as well.

From someone with about 1/10 the knowledge base of Ofer, I'll have to agree with his commentary. Although when I can get a good handshake between BD/HD-DVD and the processor, I do notice an improvement in PQ but I'm guessing it has more to do with the the processor settings than anything else. For instance, I could probably get the same results by adjusting the settings on my RS-1 without having the processor in the chain. Hardware -wise, my video chain seems to work smoother when the HD source is wired directly to the display.

...
I do see compression artifacts on some HD content. It's light, but it's increasingly there. It wasn't there a year or two ago. I guess bitrates are dropping as availability increases.
...
The Mosquito was designed for MPEG2, and while it will reduce mosquito noise on H264, it will have a harder time with block noise (H264 adds variable sized blocks).
...

Ofer-
I'm seeing lots of compression artifacts in HDTV sources. You seem to be implying that the Mosquito will help with these sources, or am I inferring incorrectly?

Since HD DVDs are generally not MPEG, does that mean the the Mosquito will not help them very much. I just watched the 'A Room with a View' HD DVD, and all of the solid colors were crawling like mad. I guess it would be called video noise and I sure would like to find something that would help remove that.

Thanks,
Tim

oferlaor, what other NR have you compared the Mosquito to? How does it compare to Gennum (GF9350 and GF9450, and I know the 9450 is supposed to be a big improvement over the 9350), Realta, VP50pro, etc?

Ofer brings up an interesting point regarding NR and H264 (MPEG-4).
We are starting to see much new material in this format.
What processors out there are able to do good NR with MPEG-4?

Current ones will still do well, just not as well as they could do. A proper H.264 decoder is going to have in-loop deblocking anyway. Broadcast encodes might have the option to use 8x8 blocks (instead of the normal 16x16) but I doubt they'll go into the advanced profile 4x4 blocks. Will the current solutions be sufficient for 8x8 blocks? Hard to say, because I have no idea if they use a fixed block size or not. Perhaps some will only need a firmware upgrade, but it is indeed possible that a hardware update would be necessary to deblock H.264 at full potential. Again, it's much less necessary, though.

Can anyone guess on the differences between the RadianceXD NR and Algolith NR?

Will the RadianceXD's BAR, Field, Mosquito, etc. NR be as good as the Algolith Mosquito's?

wish I could answer that one but I haven't seen the Radiance

Up till now I compared only 3 types of MPEG-NR algorithms: the ABT one, HQV, Algolith mosquito. I have not had access to a Genum unit thus far :(

I am using a lot of H264 and VC1 stuff recently. Have not felt the need to pass it through any MNR, I'm not seeing enough compression artifacts for that yet. I guess my sources haven't gotten around to start pushing the limits of their bandwidth yet...

BAR algorithms will have a hard time through most MPEG NR systems that were designed around MPEG2. Not only are the blocks varying in size, but the loop through algorithms are supposed to reduce Block noise significantly to begin with (That's one of the selling points for H264 over MPEG2). Mosquito noise has not changed much and I suspect that most systems (HQV, ABT, Algolith) will do quite well in reducing this type of noise.

I use an Algolith HDMI Flea with my broadcast sources(a Series 3 TiVo, A TiVoHD , and a FIOS HD STB) before going to my VP50pro. The flea does an excellent job cleaning up the broadcast video. It's below the Mosquito but it does an excellent job so I would think the Mosquito would be even better.

I use an Algolith HDMI Flea with my broadcast sources(a Series 3 TiVo, A TiVoHD , and a FIOS HD STB) before going to my VP50pro. The flea does an excellent job cleaning up the broadcast video. It's below the Mosquito but it does an excellent job so I would think the Mosquito would be even better.


The last Mosquito FW upgrade files are almost a year old.

even if the Mosquito you say is better , won't the Flea catch up with even

newer FW upgrades ?

Michael

Aaron,

Does the flea clean-up HD broadcast video too?
I am using Dish Network, BTW.

Yes. That is what I'm using the HDMI Flea for, strictly broadcast sources. Most of what I watch is HD. It does a very good job cleaning up the broadcast HD and also SD.

The last Mosquito FW upgrade files are almost a year old...........
Michael

:(

I reported a Mosquito bug (control-related) and they told me they'd fix it. That was 9 months ago. I think their HT biz is kaput.

Aaron,

How's the Pro's NR compare to the Mosquito and Flea? My Pro has not yet arrived, but I'm thinking about canceling my order going with a Mosquito. From what I’m seeing in the threads lately, I might as well stick with the VP50 and buy a machine with better NR.

Aaron,

How's the Pro's NR compare to the Mosquito and Flea? My Pro has not yet arrived, but I'm thinking about canceling my order going with a Mosquito. From what I’m seeing in the threads lately, I might as well stick with the VP50 and buy a machine with better NR.


I don't have the Flea but I do have the vp50pro. I'm not impressed with the NR it has at this point in time. It really doesn't do much for me, or not what I'd like anyway. I do use it on satellite SD but its a minor clean up for noise. If its set past low it makes the text on the Directv HR20's menu look smeared, but it doesn't have that effect on video.

I do have a lot of experience using NR with a HTPC, using things like Dscaler, ffdshow and Nvidia graphics cards. The pro needs to do more like they do, IMO. I keep watching the RadianceXD thread to see how NR works out on that.

I reported a Mosquito bug (control-related) and they told me they'd fix it. That was 9 months ago. I think their HT biz is kaput.
sadly, I agree

Their Mosquito line may be on its way out, but I believe the Flea has sold very well. $2500 MSRP is just too much money for noise reduction, IMO.

Thanks Larry.

Bump. Anyone had a chance to do any comparisons between some of these solutions?