Notice it say 40gb Spider... So pretty much Spiderman 3 will come packaged inside. I'm sure thats what the Big bang announcement is.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/10/sony_ps301.jpg


matches the UPC data base

http://www.upcdatabase.com/itemnotfound.asp?upc=711719800606

Yeah, I just saw this on another site. It would be huge if true. Price is the biggest thing holding people back from buying PS3's. Yes, the games library could be bigger as well, but price is the main roadblock.

I'm definitely buying the first day it comes out. Crossing my fingers for the rumble included.

Starting to look pretty tempting...but did they ever patch Spider-Man 3 so that it runs with a smoother framerate?

Man I am loving this!!!!!!!

Competition is all out hell on the next generation. If the $399 part is true.. We've seen a $200 drop on a Playstation console before it has even turned 1 year old.

I guess I need to start taking a look at the Bluray section in BlockBuster.. ;0)

Starting to look pretty tempting...but did they ever patch Spider-Man 3 so that it runs with a smoother framerate?

its a bluray movie...

Every Playstation fan should be sending thank you cards to Microsoft. The PS2 came down faster than expected due to competition and it looks like the PS3 is following as well.

Without Microsoft there would be no need for these aggressive moves by Sony. Another $500 SKU after the discontinuation of the original, a packin game and now perhaps a $400 SCKU in under a year.

Compeitition is good for gamers.

Oh trust Frank it ain over.. expect Microsoft to counter..

And the deals to get even sweeter on both sides!

Hell at this rate.. by Xmas 08.. the 40G PS3 will be $299 and the 360 Premium will be $199.. and they both will have a game disc included!





Honestly.. under $300 is ideally where these units should have been priced from the beginning. When you drop below $300 you really start to get in the area where anybody can afford it. Play money for videogames and such is a joke for me now.. but I remember being a struggling college student 10 years ago.. it seemed I would have to hit the lottery to afford the $299 PS1 and $399 Sega Saturn. And rob a bank after that to afford a game and an extra controller.. lol

Starting to look pretty tempting.

Its too late in the season for MS to adjust their plans this year (Two pack in games and the recent price drop) but I am looking forward to the response and counter-response. Once the PS3 hits $300 I'll grab one for the living room and another for my sons room.

I dont think its too late for them to counter. But I do believe they are looking for atleast their first profitable quarter ever.. and have the lineup/hype to do that season without touching the price.

I've been looking for a second machine for the plasma in the bedroom. And I'd much rather pickup a PS3.. than another 360. Its simply a much better fit for my little 1 bedroom apt.

Its quieter for watching late night movies, everything is included in the box (no extra accessories needed) and I get to play PS3 exclusives (most of which are single player games anyways.. so no need worry about extra controllers or friends in the bedroom).. As soon as the price is officially announced I'm going to start buggin my girlfriend how I've found what I want for Xmas.

I hope you are correct and I am wrong. I am buying my nephew a 360 Arcade unit (I have a spare HDD) and I would love to pay less than $280.

Its too late in the season for MS to adjust their plans this year (Two pack in games and the recent price drop) but I am looking forward to the response and counter-response. Once the PS3 hits $300 I'll grab one for the living room and another for my sons room.

You can bet that they have plans for this exact scenario.

You can bet that they have plans for this exact scenario.

They have a packed games, forza and marvel instead. If there was another price drop, trust me you would have heard about it like the first price drop and ps3 drops. Big companies can't just drop prices out of a whim, corporation profits are included in stockholders forcast.

They have a packed games, forza and marvel instead. If there was another price drop, trust me you would have heard about it like the first price drop and ps3 drops. Big companies can't just drop prices out of a whim, corporation profits are included in stockholders forcast.


And retail is also like a battle. They need to have contingency plans for big surprises from their competitors.
price is easy to react to. You can't just go and change a bundle but you can quickly change the price and it has happened in the past in retail..
To assume you competitor will do nothing to couteract your price drops makes no sense. Any company that doesn't have contingency plans can be in big trouble depending on the circumstances.

Man I am loving this!!!!!!!

Competition is all out hell on the next generation. If the $399 part is true.. We've seen a $200 drop on a Playstation console before it has even turned 1 year old.

I guess I need to start taking a look at the Bluray section in BlockBuster.. ;0)

What will your new sig be ;)


---
Definitely hope MS counters with a nice price drop and more reliable systems. $250 with HDD would be a great price.

What will your new sig be ;)


---
Definitely hope MS counters with a nice price drop and more reliable systems. $250 with HDD would be a great price.

What makes you think that MS can provide a more stable/reliable xbox360? I would think that if they had something up their sleeve, they would have corrected the issue before taking on $1B in debt to provide a stronger warrenty.

What makes you think that MS can provide a more stable/reliable xbox360? I would think that if they had something up their sleeve, they would have corrected the issue before taking on $1B in debt to provide a stronger warrenty.

To me it would seem silly if they simply decided to leave things as they were from day one and just count on constantly fixing things, maybe you disagree?


I'd be surprised if they haven't already changed some proccesses to make some aspects better already. Improving reliability what be better for their bottom line regardless. It can't be cheap to ship boxes back and forth and send out multiple refurb's to people and all the activity involved with that process.

What will your new sig be ;)


---
Definitely hope MS counters with a nice price drop and more reliable systems. $250 with HDD would be a great price.

LOL..

I guess it will change to I care a little bit about BR...

Renting discs from Blockbuster.. a BR rental costs me no more than a DVD rental.. so without a doubt I'd go for it. The only part that would suck is I could only watch them in the bedroom.

As far as my overall stance on HD disc technology. Im still not that wow'ed about it. And definitely not interested enough in it to upgrade my TV and reciever.

I've never hated the technology.. just never experienced the "wow" factor other people did when I took my try at it.. I understand alot of its due to my equipment. I have two Vizio plasmas. Both 50". Both 720P max rez. And I have a 7 year old Sony 5.1 DD/DTS surround reciever.

So with no 1080P display.. no 7.1 loseless sound setup.. I've never had much reason for care for BR or HDDVD.. even after buying/trying/selling the HDDVD addon for my 360..

Yeah, I just saw this on another site. It would be huge if true. Price is the biggest thing holding people back from buying PS3's. Yes, the games library could be bigger as well, but price is the main roadblock.

I think they'd be better off packing in a killer game instead of a movie.

I have helped several people buy and setup HDTVs. Not one of them is interested in blu-ray or HD-DVD. To them, DVD looks good enough, especially when blu-ray movies are selling for two and three times the price of DVDs.

PS3 has the killer hardware. It desperately needs some killer software to prove it. I just don't think a blu-ray Spiderman movie is going to move PS3s like Halo 3 will move XBOXes.

What makes you think that MS can provide a more stable/reliable xbox360? I would think that if they had something up their sleeve, they would have corrected the issue before taking on $1B in debt to provide a stronger warrenty.

I'd be surprised if they haven't already changed some proccesses to make some aspects better already. Improving reliability what be better for their bottom line regardless. It can't be cheap to ship boxes back and forth and send out multiple refurb's to people and all the activity involved with that process.

I'm not so sure you understood what the $1B loss was accounted for. It was to actually address the problem.. not just keep putting bandaids on refurbed systems.

The heatsink design was reengineered to be larger and more effective.. and the smaller CPU and GPU die are starting to show up on store shelves..

Theres no scientific study done to show if the improvements are working.. but I've personally noticed alot less RROD complaints with the newer systems. Especially alot less RROD complaints with any HDMI equipped 360.

It appears most RROD complaints you hear these days are solely from individuals who owned 360's prior to the heatsink/cpu/gpu upgrades done this year.. the non-HDMI units.

the switch over to 65nm cores reducing power and heat should reduce RROD. people over at beyond3d have pics of the Halo 360 and the core seems to be smaller than the original 90nm, however, not THAT much smaller (almost looks like 80nm).
i don't think its too late for MS to counter but i don't think they will.

anyway, good move for Sony... they would have been stupid not to introduce a new, cheaper sku, or at least have another price drop before the holiday season. bundling it with SM3 was also a great move.

I hope that the $399 PS3 will act as an impetus for MS to drop the price of the premium 360 further. It would make it much easier for single console owners who cannot currently justify the expense of multiple next-gen system to own both the 360 and PS3.

If true I might just pick this up. Still plan to pick up an Elite. But if MS was to drop another price then I can wait for that too. No rush.

Damn I am buying too much stuff to keep up.

I think they'd be better off packing in a killer game instead of a movie.

I have helped several people buy and setup HDTVs. Not one of them is interested in blu-ray or HD-DVD. To them, DVD looks good enough, especially when blu-ray movies are selling for two and three times the price of DVDs.

PS3 has the killer hardware. It desperately needs some killer software to prove it. I just don't think a blu-ray Spiderman movie is going to move PS3s like Halo 3 will move XBOXes.

Trust me I'm right there with you brother. To most people DVD still looks great. Not everyone is concerned with more pixels and the clearest sound as most of here on AVS are.

Hell you'd be surprised so many people get an HD Plasma or LCD.. get an HD cable box.. and never bother to even turn the HD service on, hook up the HD cables.. Especially females.. they just like the newer flat model tvs because they take up less space in the room. Or those individuals that do have everything HD turned on and hooked up properly (like myself).. but never bother to watch the HD channels (my girlfriend and her friends)

My girlfriend is living proof of that. I have HD service and HDTV's both the living room and bedroom and she never bothers to turn to the HD channel. She still watches her old stuff on her old channels. In the 2 years I've had the service/tv's.. not once has she came and asked me.. "hey.. i want to watch this in HiDef.. what is the HD channel for it".

DVD's on the other hand look much better than SDTV.. so you can imagine she does appreciates the video quality upgrade when watching a DVD.. but she could give a good got damn less about watching the BR or HDDVD version of a movie. If she wont take the time to even flip between a HD and SD channel on the cable box.. how interested do you think she is gonna be in purchasing an HD disc player and then purchasing or hunting down HD discs.

While you guys may laugh at her views on HD stuff.. be aware thats what the average person thinks. Especially considering women in her age range 25-35 spend more money than any other demographic. Of course males are different.. but you know the #1 reason my male friends are interested in HD.. for sports.. not for the movies or the shows. When I have the guys over the only time they ask me to turn to the HD channel is to watch the game or sportscenter.




I agree completely with you that the PS3 needs to be marketed more for its gaming abilities.. than its movie playing abilities if it wants to start shipping serious numbers. Why? Because for every one person that truly cares about Bluray.. there are probably 50 that care more about actual gaming. If that werent the case.. then the Wii/360/DS/PSP/hell even the PS2 would NOT be outselling the PS3.

Heavenly Sword would have been the perfect game to include with the PS3 as a holiday bonus. Its very easy to play.. just press away on two buttons.. Its short and fun enough for most people to finish and enjoy without getting frustrated.. and it looks beautiful. It shows those next gen graphics people expect with new consoles.

Instead they include a copy of the movie Spiderman3.. which most people have already seen and wont bother to even watch again. I dont care how much clearer it is.

I still have the copy of Spiderman2 which came with my PSP. And have never bothered to ever watch it all the way through. I saw the original in movie theaters and watching it once was enough. I popped it in my PSP.. watched the first few minutes.. and said "wow thats cool.. look how clear the screen is.." And never bothered to play it again. Of course I never bothered to purchase a UMD movie after that either.

LOL..

I guess it will change to I care a little bit about BR...

Renting discs from Blockbuster.. a BR rental costs me no more than a DVD rental.. so without a doubt I'd go for it. The only part that would suck is I could only watch them in the bedroom.

As far as my overall stance on HD disc technology. Im still not that wow'ed about it. And definitely not interested enough in it to upgrade my TV and reciever.

I've never hated the technology.. just never experienced the "wow" factor other people did when I took my try at it.. I understand alot of its due to my equipment. I have two Vizio plasmas. Both 50". Both 720P max rez. And I have a 7 year old Sony 5.1 DD/DTS surround reciever.

So with no 1080P display.. no 7.1 loseless sound setup.. I've never had much reason for care for BR or HDDVD.. even after buying/trying/selling the HDDVD addon for my 360..

So you have two 50" Vizio plasma's and a 1080i Rear Projection set, anything else you forgot to mention, jk. How many people live in your place?!

When you rent some you can always compare the lossless using 2 channel if interested just to compare. Of course you lose the surround effect.

Personaly I don't do 7.1 but 4 channel as I my front left and right mimic the center channel fine and 7.1 would be over kill for my room anyways. Is more about the SQ than the extra number of channels for me at this time. My receiver could do 7.1 for maybe one day if I ever move into a place that has a bigger family room. Still 5.1 still makes a great surround field if done right.

I do agree it would be a better move to pack in a good game.. Do something like Resistance (Insomniac has packed in games before I believe). Though financially it is probably much less expensive to pack in a blu-ray movie.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. With consumers rejecting their ridiculous pricing Sony definitely needed to do something to generate sales and this will at least do that.

Do we know if this system is gimped in any way? What is the incentive to buy the higher priced model?

So you have two 50" Vizio plasma's and a 1080i Rear Projection set, anything else you forgot to mention, jk. How many people live in your place?!

When you rent some you can always compare the lossless using 2 channel if interested just to compare. Of course you lose the surround effect.

Personaly I don't do 7.1 but 4 channel as I my front left and right mimic the center channel fine and 7.1 would be over kill for my room anyways. Is more about the SQ than the extra number of channels for me at this time. My receiver could do 7.1 for maybe one day if I ever move into a place that has a bigger family room. Still 5.1 still makes a great surround field if done right.

?

How does it register you getting 5.1 then if you have 4 physical speakers hooked up? If I recall you have to have 5 speakers 1 sub to utilize true digital surround.
Can you explain the speaker set up. Actually BK PM me rather then derailing the thread. Just curious.

Trust me I'm right there with you brother. To most people DVD still looks great. Not everyone is concerned with more pixels and the clearest sound as most of here on AVS are.

Hell you'd be surprised so many people get an HD Plasma or LCD.. get an HD cable box.. and never bother to even turn the HD service on, hook up the HD cables.. Especially females.. they just like the newer flat model tvs because they take up less space in the room. Or those individuals that do have everything HD turned on and hooked up properly (like myself).. but never bother to watch the HD channels (my girlfriend and her friends)

My girlfriend is living proof of that. I have HD service and HDTV's both the living room and bedroom and she never bothers to turn to the HD channel. She still watches her old stuff on her old channels. In the 2 years I've had the service/tv's.. not once has she came and asked me.. "hey.. i want to watch this in HiDef.. what is the HD channel for it".

DVD's on the other hand look much better than SDTV.. so you can imagine she does appreciates the video quality upgrade when watching a DVD.. but she could give a good got damn less about watching the BR or HDDVD version of a movie. If she wont take the time to even flip between a HD and SD channel on the cable box.. how interested do you think she is gonna be in purchasing an HD disc player and then purchasing or hunting down HD discs.

While you guys may laugh at her views on HD stuff.. be aware thats what the average person thinks. Especially considering women in her age range 25-35 spend more money than any other demographic. Of course males are different.. but you know the #1 reason my male friends are interested in HD.. for sports.. not for the movies or the shows. When I have the guys over the only time they ask me to turn to the HD channel is to watch the game or sportscenter.




I agree completely with you that the PS3 needs to be marketed more for its gaming abilities.. than its movie playing abilities if it wants to start shipping serious numbers. Why? Because for every one person that truly cares about Bluray.. there are probably 50 that care more about actual gaming. If that werent the case.. then the Wii/360/DS/PSP/hell even the PS2 would be outselling the PS3.

Heavenly Sword would have been the perfect game to include with the PS3 as a holiday bonus. Its easy to play.. just press two buttons.. Its short enough for most people to finish and enjoy without getting frustrated.. and it looks beautiful.

Instead they include a copy of Spiderman3.. which most people have already seen and wont bother to even watch.

I still have the copy of Spiderman2 which came with my PSP. And have never bothered to ever watch it. I saw the original in movie theaters and watching it once was enough.

You could always do what I did--I deleted the SD version of any channel that had an HD version. So, if my fiance wants to watch ABC, CBS, NBC, etc, she has to watch in HD. :D

You could always do what I did--I deleted the SD version of any channel that had an HD version. So, if my fiance wants to watch ABC, CBS, NBC, etc, she has to watch in HD. :D

Thats exactly what I did with mine too. Try it out Daekwan if it starts and argument though back off :D

So you have two 50" Vizio plasma's and a 1080i Rear Projection set, anything else you forgot to mention, jk. How many people live in your place?!

When you rent some you can always compare the lossless using 2 channel if interested just to compare. Of course you lose the surround effect.

Personaly I don't do 7.1 but 4 channel as I my front left and right mimic the center channel fine and 7.1 would be over kill for my room anyways. Is more about the SQ than the extra number of channels for me at this time. My receiver could do 7.1 for maybe one day if I ever move into a place that has a bigger family room. Still 5.1 still makes a great surround field if done right.

The 1080i stuff was a hypothetical situation. I thought I was pretty clear when I said that.

In all honestly though.. check my post history on this site about 6 years ago.. I did own and enjoy a 1080i only RCA MM52100 52" big box CRT. The tv actually accepted VGA input of 800x600 @ 60hz.. and was connected to a RCA DTC100 DirectTV HD box, my original XBox, my HTPC, and my Sega Dreamcast.. all with the use of a VGA switcher.. and it looked great. I had it for about 2 years before I sold it and went the DLP projector route.

While alot of you guys are "new" to HDTV. I've owned and enjoyed HDTV and digital surround sound since 2000. I'm 7 years into this.

?

How does it register you getting 5.1 then if you have 4 physical speakers hooked up? If I recall you have to have 5 speakers 1 sub to utilize true digital surround.
Can you explain the speaker set up. Actually BK PM me rather then derailing the thread. Just curious.

Most receivers simply have the front left and front right do the job of the center channel. You're Onkyo TS-XR 805 that you will be getting (same as what I have) has that option. If you do the audyssey eq setup it will automatically detect the lack of a center or sub or whatever else isn't used.

So when you do those THX audio optimizers, etc it will show the pic of the center being played yet your two fronts will be playing the test tone. Sometimes doing this is called a "phantom center". Sometimes this is the only way for people to have their home theater set up based on display type, room layout etc.. In my case it is a bit of both as the Energy Reference center speaker is way too big to put on the SXRD without a crazy custom stand and all that.

In my old Energy Connoisseurset up I actually had 5.1 but the center channel that was designed to match the other speakers actually had a slightly different tonal characteristic (different sized cabinent, etc) and I preferred the sound more during phantom mode and took the center channel back.

Most receivers simply have the front left and front right do the job of the center channel. You're Onkyo TS-XR 805 that you will be getting (same as what I have) has that option. If you do the audyssey eq setup it will automatically detect the lack of a center or sub or whatever else isn't used.

So when you do those THX audio optimizers, etc it will show the pic of the center being played yet your two fronts will be playing the test tone. Sometimes doing this is called a "phantom center". Sometimes this is the only way for people to have their home theater set up based on display type, room layout etc.. In my case it is a bit of both as the Energy Reference center speaker is way too big to put on the SXRD without a crazy custom stand and all that.

In my old Energy Connoisseurset up I actually had 5.1 but the center channel that was designed to match the other speakers actually had a slightly different tonal characteristic (different sized cabinent, etc) and I preferred the sound more during phantom mode and took the center channel back.

Cool I will try it with/without the C3 Center channel. Thanks

You could always do what I did--I deleted the SD version of any channel that had an HD version. So, if my fiance wants to watch ABC, CBS, NBC, etc, she has to watch in HD. :D

Thats a great idea..

It actually frustrates me that she doesnt care. Even worse she knows how to use the DVR functions on the cable box. She records all her shows and watches them just fine.

She simply could give a damn less if one is more clearer than the other.

Her most outstanding comment on HDTV was something along the lines of.. "I dont like it.. it lets you see all of her wrinkles". This was talking about Vanessa Williams in the show Ugly Betty. She said HD makes her look too old.. lol

The 1080i stuff was a hypothetical situation. I thought I was pretty clear when I said that.

In all honestly though.. check my post history on this site about 6 years ago.. I did own and enjoy a 1080i only RCA MM52100 52" big box CRT. The tv actually accepted VGA input of 800x600 @ 60hz.. and was connected to a RCA DTC100 DirectTV HD box, my original XBox, my HTPC, and my Sega Dreamcast.. all with the use of a VGA switcher.. and it looked great. I had it for about 2 years before I sold it and went the DLP projector route.

While alot of you guys are "new" to HDTV. I've owned and enjoyed HDTV and digital surround sound since 2000. I'm 7 years into this.

I must have missed the hypothetical part, my mistake :o I just read this post and didn't notice anything prior or after stating that:

Halo 640p thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11759749#post11759749

I wonder how you feel about the whole 1080i situation with the PS3 then. Last I checked HDTV support is checked on the box.. but yet my very popular 1080i rear projection HDTV only plays certain PS3 games in 480P max.
It just proves Sony entry into the HD gaming arena is a bit of stretch.
*no pun included*

I think my first was the most expensive as well (MSRP of like $3,700, I used a friends employee price for about a 1k off), Sony 4:3 53" CRT 53HS30. Don't remember the year but a long time ago. Each set has cost me less and less. $1300 for a 1080p 55" SXRD is my latest. I have to admit my favorite was the 65" Hitachi ultravision beast (probably 3-4 dead bodies could fit in the cabinet, lol)

...

My girlfriend is living proof of that. I have HD service and HDTV's both the living room and bedroom and she never bothers to turn to the HD channel. She still watches her old stuff on her old channels. In the 2 years I've had the service/tv's.. not once has she came and asked me.. "hey.. i want to watch this in HiDef.. what is the HD channel for it".

DVD's on the other hand look much better than SDTV.. so you can imagine she does appreciates the video quality upgrade when watching a DVD.. but she could give a good got damn less about watching the BR or HDDVD version of a movie. If she wont take the time to even flip between a HD and SD channel on the cable box.. how interested do you think she is gonna be in purchasing an HD disc player and then purchasing or hunting down HD discs.

While you guys may laugh at her views on HD stuff.. be aware thats what the average person thinks. Especially considering women in her age range 25-35 spend more money than any other demographic. ....

You're right that this is typical... But people do see the difference if you really toggle back and forth...

So when my wife an I are watching a TV show she sometimes ended up on the SD channel.. When I switched it for her, she does say "Oh! Much better"... (I also force my SD stuff to play in the correct 4:3 ratio with pillar boxes... Even though she likes it stretched better, that's just not allowed in our house! :D ) She's come around on the aspect ratio since...

With the recent update in the DirecTV HD channels... I now have a favorites list as a default that eliminates all SD channels that have an HD counterpart. And with the HDDVR, we never even see SD shows when it is available in HD (live or recorded)... It is fun finally being in the future.

Bringing this back to gaming, this is why I think the PS3 strategy confuses lots of people. But "future proof" is a smart strategy. The PS3 is the most capable HD movie and HD gaming system you can buy now. As people in this forum know, we often get into technology before the masses do... But the masses always end up getting here...

...We all had early DVR devices... We all got DVDs early... We all got HDTVs early... HDDVRs, early... And now HD Movies... and now HD Games...

In 3 or 4 years HDTVs are going to be very mainstream (if they're not already getting there now). So if a PlayStation with that simple HDMI connection is only $299 or $249, well, it is going to be a no brainer.

I don't see my Xbox (purchased on launch and replaced/refurbished 3 months later) lasting 3-4 years more... I just don't see it. If their plan is a next-next gen console, then think about your girlfriend as an example of the average consumer...

...how much more HD can the neXtBOX be? SD - DVD - HD --- The differences, as you point out, are becoming less and less drastic and less important to the average consumer.


**EDIT: Sorry... I somehow missed that there was a Page 2 to this thread. oops... Sorry I repeated the SD channel deleting ideas!**

Cool I will try it with/without the C3 Center channel. Thanks

You can turn it on and off in the setup menu pretty easily. It is pretty basic, just hit menu and go to the speaker options. So basically I'd let the EQ do its thing then mess around with it after.

one thing I haven't tried is to see if I can raise the level of the center channel sound without the center channel, basically bringing up the dialog,etc. I know with the center hooked up it is simply a matter of raising it up. So that could be one benefit, especially for night time watching as some movies are mixed with a high dynamic range and dialog is hard to hear when listening at lower levels. Of course there is probably a better way for that but I haven't messed around with it much or read the manual yet, lol

I must have missed the hypothetical part, my mistake :o I just read this post and didn't notice anything prior or after stating that:

Halo 640p thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11759749#post11759749



Brian I dont own or have a PS3.. or single PS3 game.. that should have told you right there I was being hypothetical.. If you would read the post above mines. You would also see I was mocking Dralt. I basically copied and pasted his pro-Sony post.. and flipped the words into my own making it pro-Microsoft.

I think my first was the most expensive as well (MSRP of like $3,700, I used a friends employee price for about a 1k off), Sony 4:3 53" CRT 53HS30. Don't remember the year but a long time ago. Each set has cost me less and less. $1300 for a 1080p 55" SXRD is my latest. I have to admit my favorite was the 65" Hitachi ultravision beast (probably 3-4 dead bodies could fit in the cabinet, lol)

And thats the reason why the no-1080i support on some PS3 games is such a hot topic with people here. Those tvs were EXPENSIVE not to many years ago. My tv was MSRP $3499.. and I had a friend who worked at BestBuy "hook" me up with his employee discount to purchase it for $2800. Plenty of big box CRT's were going for $5000 plus. I remember the Mitsubishi Diamond ones were up to $10,000.

After selling that I went through two DLP projectors. The infamous Infocus X1 800x600 ($999).. nice little projector.. but the slow colour wheel and resolution sucked.. and then the BenQ 6200.. 1024x768.. ($1599) more rez, more light, faster wheel.

Eventually sold the projectors.. sold my house.. moved to a 1 bedroom apt in Jersey to work in NYC.. and needed as much space in the apt as possible. Picked up my first Vizio from Costco for $2600.. my 2nd Vizio from Sams club for $1750 a year later.

Last I checked that same Vizio plasma is down $1250. And the 1080P versions are under $1700.

So alot of people buying HDTVs now.. spewing senseless 1080P talk here and there.. about how its a must have and dissing the older technology dont understand people who bought this technology just a few years ago were spending $5000.. to get what they are paying $1500 for..

Hell for the price I paid for my 1080i only big box CRT years ago.. I could have bought TWO 1080P flatscreens in todays market.

Fair enough. I didn't think you had a PS3 and didn't read it that way. I certainly wouldn't have ruled out a friend bringing one over.

I think you are referring to the 1080p LCD's not Plasma's ;) As far as I know Vizio doesn't have a 1080p plasma yet. Thought that would be a killer price, well below any competition for 50". Vizio, make it so!

Bringing this back to gaming, this is why I think the PS3 strategy confuses lots of people. But "future proof" is a smart strategy. The PS3 is the most capable HD movie and HD gaming system you can buy now. As people in this forum know, we often get into technology before the masses do... But the masses always end up getting here...

...We all had early DVR devices... We all got DVDs early... We all got HDTVs early... HDDVRs, early... And now HD Movies... and now HD Games...

In 3 or 4 years HDTVs are going to be very mainstream (if they're not already getting there now). So if a PlayStation with that simple HDMI connection is only $299 or $249, well, it is going to be a no brainer.

I don't see my Xbox (purchased on launch and replaced/refurbished 3 months later) lasting 3-4 years more... I just don't see it. If their plan is a next-next gen console, then think about your girlfriend as an example of the average consumer...

...how much more HD can the neXtBOX be? SD - DVD - HD --- The differences, as you point out, are becoming less and less drastic and less important to the average consumer.


You make some excellent points. Especially the part where HDTV's are becoming cheaper by the season. I think in 2-3 years.. it will be easy to find 1080P 50" flatscreens under $1000 and a $200 PS3 with BR playback will be perfectly suited for that tv and that individual buying that tv. The futureproof part is definitely there.

The problem is though.. to get to that point.. you have to sustain yourself now when the console 'war' is most important.. When developers are choosing sides, when buzzwords are being formed, and when people generally think great playing games.. Sony has to hope that the high price of the PS3 and relative low interest in BR arent causing too many people to lose interest in the Playstation now. The price and inclusion of BR has so far made it difficult for the PS3 to retain exclusives and hold that brand name power. Its even struggling in Japan.. its home country.

Of course the race is still early.. but by how much early. All of these consoles are entering their 2nd year.. and 3rd year for the 360.. and we are now seeing sales pointed towards the 20 million mark after this holiday season. The 4-5 year shelf life.. and mid 20 million mark is usually where average selling consoles start to die out.. and people begin to hold their breath for the next version.

So 2-3 years from now we could easily see a gaming world dominated by MS and Nintendo. And Sony's happy ending fairy tale never had its chance to play out. Then again.. if they are serious about a 10 year shelf life for the PS3.. I guess whats happening now with the PS3 going into its 2nd year has very little importance on its future. A $600 PS3 is quite a different animal than a $200 PS3.

I must have missed the hypothetical part, my mistake :o I just read this post and didn't notice anything prior or after stating that:

Halo 640p thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11759749#post11759749

I love this quote by Bungie on the topic of 640p:

"We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists"

This board is full of it... Drama that is.

Every Playstation fan should be sending thank you cards to Microsoft. The PS2 came down faster than expected due to competition and it looks like the PS3 is following as well.

Without Microsoft there would be no need for these aggressive moves by Sony. Another $500 SKU after the discontinuation of the original, a packin game and now perhaps a $400 SCKU in under a year.

Compeitition is good for gamers.

Ummm...right, and MS can just forward those thank you cards to Nintendo along with their own thank you cards. These price drops on BOTH companies consoles have a lot more to do with the Wii than the 360 vs. PS3 next gen race.

I love this quote by Bungie on the topic of 640p:

"We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists"

This board is full of it... Drama that is.

Bungie added the drama themselves by advertising something that wasn't there.

You make some excellent points. Especially the part where HDTV's are becoming cheaper by the season. I think in 2-3 years.. it will be easy to find 1080P 50" flatscreens under $1000 and a $200 PS3 with BR playback will be perfectly suited for that tv and that individual buying that tv. The futureproof part is definitely there.

The problem is though.. to get to that point.. you have to sustain yourself now when the console 'war' is most important.. When developers are choosing sides, when buzzwords are being formed, and when people generally think great playing games.. Sony has to hope that the high price of the PS3 and relative low interest in BR arent causing too many people to lose interest in the Playstation now. The price and inclusion of BR has so far made it difficult for the PS3 to retain exclusives and hold that brand name power. Its even struggling in Japan.. its home country.

Of course the race is still early.. but by how much early. All of these consoles are entering their 2nd year.. and 3rd year for the 360.. and we are now seeing sales pointed towards the 20 million mark after this holiday season. The 4-5 year shelf life.. and mid 20 million mark is usually where average selling consoles start to die out.. and people begin to hold their breath for the next version.

So 2-3 years from now we could easily see a gaming world dominated by MS and Nintendo. And Sony's happy ending fairy tale never had its chance to play out. Then again.. if they are serious about a 10 year shelf life for the PS3.. I guess whats happening now with the PS3 going into its 2nd year has very little importance on its future. A $600 PS3 is quite a different animal than a $200 PS3.

I just believe that the general public is quite fickle when it comes to all this. I agree that you don't want to lose developers, but people look at things in the "now". So if people are following the war and see that PS3's aren't selling as much as 360s and Wiis they might think that means the PS3 sucks... and not think about it... But it isn't like Sony isn't great at hype... lol. If/When they have the opportunity to drop the price, combine it with some big releases and HYPE the PS3, the buzz changes. I think they've got a pretty clear road map of their strategy. A lot of people have attacked them for entering the market with a $600 game console... But they did get in... They did give blu ray a boost... And they did sell out (even causing supply problems) at launch. I don't think Sony was ever under the impression that they'd be doing PS1/PS2 like peak sales with a $600 unit. Price cuts are their ace in the hole. Whether or not the price point drops are 'exactly' on schedule or not... I don't honestly know (probably not?)... But they've done this very successfully twice before.

And the 20 million mark has been where most consoles do start to die out... But that has not been the case with Sony's consoles. Their stated goal has not only been to repeat what the PS2 (and PS1 before that) did, but to exceed it.

I don't know if there will be any "domination" in the gaming world in the next 2-3 years, but I'm pretty certain that MS's Xbox 360 will NOT dominate then. Forgetting worldwide sales, forgetting any hardware issues, forgetting the lack of an HD player... They're going to be competing with a PS3 priced for impulse pickup... A cheap PS3 for that sub-$1k 1080p set you mentioned.

The "next" PS3 will be nowhere on the horizon... And if there is to be a next-Xbox, how are you going to convince your girlfriend that it does anything better than your PS3? Toggle back and forth or not... A "vastly" superior next Xbox is going to have to be quite pricey... and one that is just nice upgrade (standard HDMI, HD movie player, standard HDD) is going to leave past 360 owners saying, "That's it?!?!?"

So if you take option A (the vastly superior, but expensive, next Xbox), it is going to have to REALLY shine... I'd love to know what's possible in the next 3-4 years on that front (btw). But up until about now, the PS2 has been outselling the 360 montly, and that wasn't half as "future proof" as the PS3 was designed to be.

I don't know if I sound all "doom & gloom" for Microsoft or not, but it does worry me. Because (as we are seeing with this price drop on the PS3 and the strong holiday season for the 360) competition is a good thing for US. If the 360 starts fading at 20 million sales, I can't see Microsoft really trying hardware again.... What's the point? After all, it is Microsoft... Their core competency has always been software...

...maybe one day we'll be able to purchase a subscription to Live that runs on the PSN network? lol ;)

(that last line is just a joke... for people that wear tinfoil hats and like rumors (http://kotaku.com/gaming/rumor/bungie-microsoft-tight+lipped-on-separation-rumors-305825.php))

What makes you think that MS can provide a more stable/reliable xbox360? I would think that if they had something up their sleeve, they would have corrected the issue before taking on $1B in debt to provide a stronger warrenty.

Not that it matters, since their library is the one to beat.

Cheap powerful hardware means nothing without software. I find it interesting that one of the comments involves searching for BR titles as opposed to games.

What makes you think that MS can provide a more stable/reliable xbox360? I would think that if they had something up their sleeve, they would have corrected the issue before taking on $1B in debt to provide a stronger warrenty.

As I understand it, they took an accounting charge to earnings to reflect additional warranty costs on prior sales.

I don't recall them taking out any debt to finance this. This is a charge that doesn't hit the cash flow statement but reflects future expected costs offsetting the sale (kind of like allowance for bad debt expense, it's not the bad debt now but some assumed amount to be conservative as you certainly won't collect it all).

Despite the charge taken all in 1 quarter (representing that quarter's sales and all previous Xbox 360s sold up to that point) they still posted a profit for that quarter.

Maybe I have this wrong in my head as I haven't followed MSFT closely in a while but I think your understanding of the issue and presentation is far off from reality.

I have HD service and HDTV's both the living room and bedroom and she never bothers to turn to the HD channel

i've said it before and i'll say it again: the winner in the HDDVD/BLURAY war will be DVD ;)


only on-demmand and downloadable (instant gratification) will be the end of dvd, and IMHO that'll happen before hddvd/bluray become a success

Now before I post this, I'd just like to say that I enjoy and own both consoles.

I purhcased a 360 along with my brother at launch and loved it. About 4 months later I got the RROD so I sent it back to Microsoft and got it replaced. About 5 months into the new one, same thing happened, so I brought it back to bestbuy under warranty(now that they were in stock) and got it replaced. Another 4-5 months go by and 360 number 3 is dead. I ordered the coffin, but was too apathetic to send it in. At this point I asked my brother if I could use his 360, since he never plays it(avid pc gamer). He said it was no problem, so he let me have it. Played it for a few weeks and surprise, RROD. His console still had the bestbuy warranty so I brought it in, got it replaced. Come home that night, and start playing Topsin that came with it in the bundle, and after about 2 hours the new console froze up, RROD. At this point, I really got pissed. 5 consoles dead in under 2 years. I brought the new one back to bestbuy, and they asked if I wanted to upgrade to the Elite for $50 more than I had paid at launch, which gave me an idea. I asked a few questions, and the manager came over, and shortly after I walked out with a 60gb PS3 for $100(after the $400 credit from my premium 360). I had done the research on the ps3 before hand, and figured I'd be better off for now with the system as people were having very few problems with it. I've had it for 2 months now and I'm very pleased with the ps3, hasn't given me a single problem yet.

I still have a 360, sitting in the coffin waiting to be sent to microsoft, but I'm waiting to send it out until I hear more reports on the new 65nm chips and how they're working out. I love the console(especially because i've got a 1080i only set) but I was just tired of the issues I'd been having with them(and I know that I was having unusually bad luck).

I think the amount of problems people have been having with the 360, combine with sony dropping the price to $400 will help sony with console sales. In the mainstream, the issues with the RROD may not be very common knowledge, but I'd imagine many people buying consoles have friends with them, and have probably heard accounts of issues with the 360, though probably not to the level that they exist, and that you hear about them on message boards. I know for a while I was very happy with my 360, and wasn't considering getting a ps3 at all(especially for $600) but with all the problems I'd had, i made the jump and I've never looked back. I'm very happy with my decision and love my ps3, but I also can't wait to get another 360 and have the best of both worlds.

i've said it before and i'll say it again: the winner in the HDDVD/BLURAY war will be DVD ;)


only on-demmand and downloadable (instant gratification) will be the end of dvd, and IMHO that'll happen before hddvd/bluray become a success


AGREE 1000%!

I guess it will end up in a giant blood bath where Sony and Microsoft compete to be the one with the biggest loss while Nintendo racks in money with the Wii.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Wolfman2k5/WiiPrintsMoney.gif

:p

MS better prepare their shareholders and postpone their profitability target date.

i hear ya benkrishman; that really is the curse of the 360, lousy reliability; i however had two different ones (without new heatsink) and they never died after perhaps 9months of use each everyday; HOWEVER, they froze up WAY too often; i've got a new 360 with hdmi on the way and i'd switch to ps3 in a heartbeat if they had the games i want.....it's so much prettier anyway ;) alas, the games are not there so much; couple years and i'll have a ps3 no doubt

if you're going to own one console at a time; now's the time for the xbox, hopefully the ps3 will be the one to have in several years, though i'm certainly concerned

i'll tell you my biggest fear: that sony would get beaten enough to NOT make a ps4; i doubt that will happen, but the thing i don't want above all else is for MS to dominate the console market

Yeah, the ps3 is a bit slow still(I actually don't own any ps3 games at this point, just mgs2 and mgs3 which I rebought after getting the ps3) especially with a 1080i only set. I plan on picking up warhawk soon, and I'm definitely going to be getting Haze and R&C. I think I might also pick up folklore around thanksgiving/christmas, even though it's 720p only(demo at least) it was still a very fun and unique game. Definitely won't be a system seller though.

I've often wondered why so many gamers get caught up in the financial side of the industry. Its one thing to lose your favourite exclusive or have a big title stripped from your system of choice. That can be both an ego blow and a financial blow to you directly (the gamer). Because now you need to own another console to play a game you're interested in. But beyond that.. who really gives a damn if Sony or Microsoft lose a billion (or two) here or there. You guys argue financials all day, and I'd bet not a single one of you own a dime of MS or Sony stock.

For Nintendo.. there business model has always been about gaming and making a profit from there. Always has been.. always will be. Nintendo could give a damn about the other "media" features.

For Sony and Nintendo their scope of operations is alot larger, and the gaming market is but a small piece of the pie. Honestly with those two its not just about gaming anymore. Its about games, media, music, tv, hd, movies, PC's, and internet connectivity all from one device in your living room. The digital living room if you wish to call it that. Not only from do Sony and MS want to sell you the all-one-device that can do all of this, they want to sell you the software and be your service provider for any network services you may need (IPTV or PlaystationTV anyone?)

Both of these companies are large enough, have revenue spread out far enough, and have so much invested into the digital living room that neither are going nowhere soon. Even if they continue to take a loss this year, next year and year after. They are both too heavily invested in the future to even think about pulling out. I laugh at the "watch out shareholders" or "there might not be a PS4" statements because I know the digital living room is way too important to both parties for them to back out whether they come in 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever place this generation.

This 'war' is far from over.. and is about way more than who has the best games. Also dont think all the participants are finalized.. you can best believe Apple is trying to figure out how to get their foot into the digital living room also. The Ipod, Iphone, AppleTV, and Imac will soon merge together into some type of Iconsole in the next 5 years. I'm not sure exactly how it will support and play games.. but best believe.. gaming is too important to digital entertainment for Apple to leave out.

"I'd bet not a single one of you own a dime of MS or Sony stock."

Ok, lets do it. I like free money/cookies or whatever you are willing to bet ;) Well it isn't fair when I already know the answer :)

FYI, Apples are already entering the gaming field with EA games. You can play "PC" games on apples already. My friend switched over all of his PC desktop gaming (Warcraft, et) to his apple.

They have a packed games, forza and marvel instead. If there was another price drop, trust me you would have heard about it like the first price drop and ps3 drops. Big companies can't just drop prices out of a whim, corporation profits are included in stockholders forcast.

Big companies have dropped prices on a moment's notice. In past generations we've seen reactive price cuts where one vendor drops prices the same day or week as their competitor, in pure reactionary mode. It's very easy to see when this happens because they don't have time to get it in the weekly Sunday circulars, so they have the problem of the wrong price in the ads for a couple of weeks.

As an example, when Sony announced the PS2 price cut at E3 2002, Microsoft immediately cut the Xbox price, that same day. This was not a coincidence, and the new price did not appear in the Sunday ads that week.

This time, given their stronger sales position and price advantage, I'd expect MS to monitor their sales for a couple of weeks before cutting.

i agree they should be putting a game in on the pack in... but with spiderman 3... that movie made SO much money, and will sell so well on dvd, that its basically a free packin for sony. plus they're still hoping to get people into bluray.

honestly, i have a panny ae900u pj, and while i definitely can see the difference between hddvd/bluray and sd dvd, upscaled sd dvd (in most cases) is still completely kickass picture quality, and more than good enough for me normally.

a few movie franchises will be that exception (harry potter, sw, lotr, bourne, new bonds, comic book movies, etc.), but i'm still buying dvds, and i will continue to do, especially for comedies and other movies. 90" in HD is already amazing enough. :)

Pure speculation, but if I had to guess, a Halo 3 pack in is inevitable for MS after this announcement is made by Sony... launching some time before Black Friday makes sense. Perhaps a $50 price drop (or just a free Halo 3) because a $399 PS3 is a very good value considering the BR angle but a $279 intro system with Halo 3 will be very appealing to the everyday consumer.

Unfortunately for Sony, I still think Joe Gamer doesn't care about BR and lil Johnny asking for a console for the holidays definitely doesn't so both will choose a 360 and Halo 3 over a PS3 with SM3.

The AV enthusiasts will sing a different tune but they are a much smaller crowd. If the $399 version isn't too crippled, I will be all over it, finally making me dual format but that is the only thing that excites me about the PS3 right now... Beyond NGS and HS, I don't know what other games I would get and I am not even that excited to get those. Sorry if it sounds like flame bait... just being honest.

Pure speculation, but if I had to guess, a Halo 3 pack in is inevitable for MS after this announcement is made by Sony... launching some time before Black Friday makes sense. Perhaps a $50 price drop (or just a free Halo 3) because a $399 PS3 is a very good value considering the BR angle but a $279 intro system with Halo 3 will be very appealing to the everyday consumer.


I really, really doubt that MS would bundle Halo 3 -- which is not only a brand-new release but also their biggest cash cow by miles -- for free with a 360. Maybe another game (and they're already doing it with other titles), but not Halo 3.

Nintendo has done it for years and they are a still doing it with the DS (MK pack in) and the Wii. Every current 360 owner who is going to buy H3 most likely has it already. MS did it with Forza last generation, I could see it happening... but it's pure speculation.

Nintendo has done it for years and they are a still doing it with the DS (MK pack in) and the Wii. Every current 360 owner who is going to buy H3 most likely has it already. MS did it with Forza last generation, I could see it happening... but it's pure speculation.

As good as Forza is, it isn't Halo. They might do a pack-in somewhere down the road, but they stand to make a lot more money right now from selling Halo 3 separately.

MS should be more concerned about sorting out the hardware issues with its console so that it can remain a viable platform for the extremely strong crop of software due in the next few months (and years).

"I'd bet not a single one of you own a dime of MS or Sony stock."

Ok, lets do it. I like free money/cookies or whatever you are willing to bet ;) Well it isn't fair when I already know the answer :)

FYI, Apples are already entering the gaming field with EA games. You can play "PC" games on apples already. My friend switched over all of his PC desktop gaming (Warcraft, et) to his apple.

For full disclosure, I do own MSFT, SNE and AAPL stock. I've held MSFT for the longest... APPL since the Mac Mini and SNE off and on but most recently since the PS3 announcement.

You're not alone freestyle.

Pure speculation, but if I had to guess, a Halo 3 pack in is inevitable for MS after this announcement is made by Sony... launching some time before Black Friday makes sense. Perhaps a $50 price drop (or just a free Halo 3) because a $399 PS3 is a very good value considering the BR angle but a $279 intro system with Halo 3 will be very appealing to the everyday consumer.

Unfortunately for Sony, I still think Joe Gamer doesn't care about BR and lil Johnny asking for a console for the holidays definitely doesn't so both will choose a 360 and Halo 3 over a PS3 with SM3.

The AV enthusiasts will sing a different tune but they are a much smaller crowd. If the $399 version isn't too crippled, I will be all over it, finally making me dual format but that is the only thing that excites me about the PS3 right now... Beyond NGS and HS, I don't know what other games I would get and I am not even that excited to get those. Sorry if it sounds like flame bait... just being honest.

i agree, and unfortunately for sony, most av enthusiasts either already have a ps3 or have another bd player.

i agree, and unfortunately for sony, most av enthusiasts either already have a ps3 or have another bd player.

I personally don't believe all av enthusiast are early adopters. Most likely the majority of av enthusiast don't have either at this point.

Most true AV enthusiasts arent early adopters at all.. the true enthusiasts who really pump alot of dollars into their HT systems.. dont run out and by the cheapeast or the first to market. They sit back and research brand/trends. They have a plan for their HT and add components based on that plan.

Their equipment cabinet is very more refined with names recommended by their professional installer, a shop that they trust or a A/V review magazine. Their installations are more permanent and things like cable layouts are installed in wall with the use of jacks and labeled terminations.



And by true.. I'm not talking about the people who had a noname 27" tube tv and radioshack dvd player last year.. but when they got their income tax refund check this year.. ran out and bought the first 1080P set on sale and the first silver HTIB that matches his tv.. because the guy at Best buy told him it was a good brand. Keep in mind the guy at Best Buy probably doesnt know the different between 720P and 1080i.. . Its even easier to tell these same people by their setups, who usually have a 100 of cables sticking out from behind there tv.. and their surround sound speakers sitting on anything from the arm of the couch to window sill.

That type A/V Enthusiast.. has become very popular on here in the past couple of years.. and usually cause the most trouble, arguments, and personal attacks. Thanks Google. Because the guy above just bought TV "A" at WalMart on sale last week.. and is trying to figure out the remote code for it to get it work with his cable box. Types in the TV model number in Google search.. and waa-lah.. 10 mins later AVS has its newest member.

^^ The consequences mentioned are the price you pay when what used to be a niche hobby becomes more mainstream. Thankfully, everybody has the right to enjoy the A/V hobby no matter at what level.

Yes I would say most that posters here are 'enthusiasts'... meaning they are enthused by AV enough to continue posting and following the threads here. Daekwan your post could be taken as condescending but I will not take it that way. I believe what you are describing is an AV Elitist. Just because you are enthused or interested in a hobby does not mean one has to spend a vast sum of money piecing an all McIntosh system.

Yes I would say most that posters here are 'enthusiasts'... meaning they are enthused by AV enough to continue posting and following the threads here. Daekwan your post could be taken as condescending but I will not take it that way. I believe what you are describing is an AV Elitist. Just because you are enthused or interested in a hobby does not mean one has to spend a vast sum of money piecing an all McIntosh system.

And "elitist" might be taken as even more condescending than Daekwan's descriptions of such A/V devotees.

Trying to pin-point a definition to such a widespread group with different philosophies seems pretty impossible.

I've always thought of the people here as audio and video-philes. I'm personally enthused by this stuff... I spent lots of time researching before getting my home theater TV, receiver and surround system (Panny Plasma, Denon, Paradigms , Velodyne sub, etc)... but I ran out and purchased the 360 and PS3 on day one! :D

Agreed and I did not intend to offend.

I also spent a lot of time researching (and still do) putting together my system but I think everyone here deserves a fair shake, whether or not they bought a HTIB and want to know about speaker placement or they just bought Pardigm's and want to know what frequency to crossover at. In other words a hobby is a hobby no matter how you get into it.

And "elitist" might be taken as even more condescending than Daekwan's descriptions of such A/V devotees.

Trying to pin-point a definition to such a widespread group with different philosophies seems pretty impossible.

I've always thought of the people here as audio and video-philes. I'm personally enthused by this stuff... I spent lots of time researching before getting my home theater TV, receiver and surround system (Panny Plasma, Denon, Paradigms , Velodyne sub, etc)... but I ran out and purchased the 360 and PS3 on day one! :D

Ya, the way I've always understood and used the term is this:

Enthusiasts: You are enthusiastic about a hobby, you spend a lot of time learning about and participating in the hobby. This should not reflect how much equipment you own and when you choose to purchase it. An an example, I could be a poker enthusiasts (watch it on tv, read books about it), but barely ever play poker.

Audio/videophile: As I understand it, these are both just descriptions of being an enthusiast of audio and video equipment. Again, no particular reference to when you buy the equipment or how much.

Overall, I think there are different kinds of enthusiasts. Some might be most interested in researching and learning about the hobby, but they might not have the finances or desire to put significant portions of income into the hobby. Others may be HT enthusiasts, but they may not have the time or want to spend the time on researching prices and reviews, so they may pay a more research oriented person to help them make purchases. In the end, these words are flexible. Thats my rant.