Epson Home Cinema 720 Owner's Thread [Text View]

jrwhite

10-03-07, 10:48 PM

I saw those too. It's suprising that there has been no news about it, and no official announcments from Epson.

The pre-IFA Epson tour that Cine4home went on showed the new Euro / Asian lineup. One of the new offerings was the TW680, a slightly improved TW600 ( the PowerLight 400 in North America ).

Photos from CEDIA showed the HC720 in the Epson booth, but no official announcement.

Just as the 400 was a slightly improved and much lower cost PowerLight 550, I think it's the same thing for the new HC720. Slightly brighter offcial spec ( 1600 vs 1500 for the 400 ), and probably an MSRP the same or less than the 400 has been selling for after rebate.

I think this is a good thing, as the same basic chassies is just being improved and available at lower cost. To me, this means a reliable projector. Mits just did a similar thing with the HC1500 replacing the HD1000.

All the development now is in the 1080 products, with the 720's just being optomized for lower production cost.

Perhaps the official announcement hasn't been made because they want to clear the 400's already in the channel. Also, Epson already had a couple of big announcements with the 1080UB, and the new MovieMates. They probably consider this more a product evolution than something new.

If you're on the fence between the 400 and HC1080, I would wait till spring. There were a number of press reports about a HOME Cinema 1080UB at sub $3K MSRP that suddenly were retracted. The PRO cinema 1080UB was the model that was announced at CEDIA. If history repeats, Epson released the HC1080 the spring after the PRO Cinema 1080.

Just my take,

Jonathan

appleseed

10-03-07, 11:21 PM

Yeah I'm aware of the 1080UB. It is very interesting indeed. However I don't think I can wait that long, at least not anymore since I sold my 4805 and X1 to a not well off local church who wanted something for related movies and stuff for the kids. I informed them of the bulb costs but it didn't seem to matter since they where happy to get two projectors let alone one for cheep.
Now I have nothing and I'm having withdrawals:D So much for thinking I new what I wanted:o

FWIW. the retailer that had it for preorder listed specs that are very similar to the pro 810 just in a white case and reduced retail price. Close enough to the price of the 400 after rebate to take a wait and see possition.

jrwhite

10-04-07, 08:00 AM

Yes, the contrast is improved, and the lens in the photo from CEDIA looks different than my 400. I was hoping that they'd just re-badge the 810 and put it in a white case ( the TW700 / 810 continue through this product cycle ) so the new 720 would have a 2:1 zoom, but no, it's still 1.5:1.

If you decide to wait for the 720, post back when you get it. If the wait turns out to be too long, I'm sure you'd be happy with the 400. It's a great little ( well maybe not so little ) pj.

Jonathan

fillydee

10-04-07, 10:37 AM

I hope it is just the TW700 rebadged. That is the projector I wanted, but I was leary of buying it overseas and importing it. I was going to be forced in to buying the Epson 400 mainly due to the price difference. Sort of a smart move by Epson if that is the case. Hold the TW700 (the better 720P offering) away from the US market to later reintruduce it as a new model. They always had the 810 here, which is the same as the TW700, but the price was way out of wack. Sort of the Pro vs HC offering.

Wish we could get some specs on the 720 to see what it actually is.

jrwhite

10-04-07, 10:10 PM

The HC720 is most likely the TW680 announced at IFA. Just my speculation.

epson Europe tw680 specs (http://www.epson-europe.com/internetLive/dctm/content/EU/en_GB/products/video_projectors/EU_Product_Model_EMPTW680_EN.inter.jsp)

You can get more info if you Google 'Epson TW680'

Jonathan

appleseed

10-04-07, 10:23 PM

Excellent value – bright, low wattage lamp uses less energy, and is guaranteed for three years :eek:

Im now trying to decide if I want to wait for this or get the IF 7210 thats on sale tonight. hmmm.

jrwhite

10-04-07, 10:40 PM

appleseed

10-07-07, 03:50 PM

Still unable to find any real info on the HC 720. I'm not going to wait for it. I'm going to decide on either the Epson Pro 800(refurb through Epson) or the HC 400. Can anyone comment on which one I would be better getting. There is only $175 difference and they both come with 2 year warranties. Other than that there pratically the same spec wise.

I would also like to know why the forum sponsored web sites still show a $500 rebate while Epson's online store shows no rebates available. Curious because if the rebates are not proprietary then I could use it at Epson's store and get an additional 20% off of the HC 400 as well.

jrwhite

10-07-07, 10:40 PM

Hi appleseed,

Yes, it's curious why Epson dropped the rebates before introducing the new models. Here in Canada, the $500 rebate is still valid until the end of October, but, they have extended the month prior to expiry though the summer, so, I think this is it.

From what I've read, when they transitioned from the 550/800 model year to the 400/810 model year, the 400 specs exceeded the 550 but were just slightly short of the 800. I would suspect that the 800/400 are very close. If the warranty's are the same, I guess it comes down to if you want a black case or a white case.

Jonathan

mjn

10-13-07, 02:44 PM

Any word on this PJ?

jrwhite

10-13-07, 06:46 PM

Appleseed,

If you're still following the thread and haven't pulled the trigger, Epson just dropped the price on the 810 to $1,599. It's not discontinued, the Epson tour that Cine4Home took before IFA showed that the TW700 was continuing on this year.

This probably means that the HC720 will be in the 1K price range MSRP.

Jonathan.

SbWillie

10-14-07, 10:32 AM

Am I missing something?

How is this model not a re-badged 810? (good thing if it is!)

4 ounce diff. in weight is all I can see difference wise...

This probably means that the HC720 will be in the 1K price range MSRP.

under $1,300 actually..not sure if that's enough to sway me from a Z5.

jrwhite

10-14-07, 10:55 AM

Hi SbWillie,

The new TW680 previewed before IFA is the one I'm presuming will be the HC720. One major difference between the TW680 and TW700 is the lens. The TW680 is reported to have a 1.5x zoom, like the HC400 currently has, while the TW700 (810) has 2.1

I too was hoping they just stuck the 810 in a white case (especially because of the zoom ) but from the info out there so far it doesn't seem like it.

On the Cine4Home Epson Tour (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/TW2000Japan/TW2000Worldpremiere.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcine4home%2Bepson%2Btw680%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom .microsoft:*) page, it lists the TWD10 ( Moviemate 72 ) at 1299 Euros, and the TW680 at 1099 Euros. Since the MSRP of the Moviemate is $1,199US, this is where I concluded that the HC720 would probably be the same or less. Just speculation of course.

Jonathan

SbWillie

10-14-07, 12:19 PM

SbWillie

10-14-07, 01:49 PM

I'm not sure if the 3 year lamp warranty is going to be available in the NA version, but wow, if it is that would be great, especialy if it would force other pj manafacturers to do the same. I think this would be the biggest thing the industry could do to eliminate the fear of FP for the average user.

hint hint Epson

Jonathan The lack of a long term lamp warranty is the lone reason I haven't considered ordering directly from EPSON...I was considering NOT buying from them at all after their 1080UB price fiasco but I have since calmed down.:p

jrwhite

10-14-07, 03:24 PM

It can be preordered for close to what I mentioned @VA...hence my price.

thx for the info...lens,etc the same as the 400?

Based on what has been stated on this forum the 400 is a step down from the 700/810. I'm not sure if it's worth the extra $300 (budget killer for what I will have to squeeze in). COurse getting a much larger screen @10-11ft (plus 10 fL!)makes it very desirable when I compare it to the sharper Z5...:o

I would tend to belive that your pre-order quote is a much more solid bit of info on this than my speculation.

From the photos I've seen of the tw680, the lens looks different than my 400. It might just be cosmetic, but to me it looks more like the tw700 / 810 lens. 1.5x is right on their slides though, so, possibly better optics, but not more zoom. I think the CR number is up from the 400, and 100 lumens brighter. This will be interesting as the 400 was tested at nearly 500 lumens brighter than their 1500 lumen claim.

For us here in the Great White North, the 810 is now only $100 more than the 400, and no mail-in rebate to deal with. Believe it or not, the 800 is now $1000 MORE expensive than the 810 on the Canadian Epson site!

Jonathan

pottscb

10-14-07, 03:31 PM

Yes, the contrast is improved, and the lens in the photo from CEDIA looks different than my 400. I was hoping that they'd just re-badge the 810 and put it in a white case ( the TW700 / 810 continue through this product cycle ) so the new 720 would have a 2:1 zoom, but no, it's still 1.5:1...

Evan Powell seems to think its a 2:1 zoom lens, that would be nice...and the contrast spec. has increased over the 400 from 5K to 10K...maybe it is a rebadged 810.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_720.htm

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_400.htm

jrwhite

10-14-07, 03:57 PM

Well, that would be happy news indeed!

Jonathan

SbWillie

10-14-07, 06:00 PM

I would tend to belive that your pre-order quote is a much more solid bit of info on this than my speculation.

Jonathan

$ can be looked up in 10-15 seconds...(can't post their price even though they are sponsors here)

if it is a rebadged 810 I will get it for the pre-order price...over the Z5-a no brainer.:D

edit,well under my previous $$ amount now ...SWEET!

on PP's site the specs are virtuallyidentical...case around the lens is differs between the 810 and 720 but it appears the same projector otherwise.2.0 to 2.10 zoom differential.

Why is it not on EPSON USA's site yet?

better deal than the low contrast AX200.

appleseed

10-14-07, 09:12 PM

jrwhite, yes I'm still following. Just been busy doing research and some decision making for my very basic theater in progress. Also just got back from a hunting trip and saw that the HC720 is being listed for preorder now from VA and PP. What i find strange is that i called them Thur and neither knew anything about this model. Where they fibbing to me? Those heifers:p . Most likely they weren't able/ allowed to say anything, but who knows. As far as the 810, Ive been aware of the new price for awhile now. Thanks though. My biggest problem in deciding on a new projector is the new ones coming out at/near the price of the HC400 after rebate. What I'm trying to determine is if the price of the new projectors that I'm interested in the AX200, HC720 are justifiable. I'm looking at an additional $300 to $500(for the 810) that could equally be used for the rest of the theater, like seating or a new screen for instance. Really I'm the only one who can answer this for myself since I'm the one who's going to be spending the money, but opinions are welcomed;)

Was set on probably getting the 400 but then made the mistake of going into one of the AX200 threads and thats why I now have an interest in that one as well. What concerns me is that it has not been determined if the bugs from the AX100 have transitioned to the AX200. The reliability and the customer service are in question for me as well, but make no mistake it looks to be about perfect for me.

My decision now has been made even harder now that the 720 is near. The only thing that could possible keep me from buying this one, besides the additional expense is that it will likely not have the ability to do VS for a scope set up. This is not a total deal breaker for me, but going scope is something I will be doing in the future and having to get a scaler is just another expense.

Something of note, has anyone else noticed that PP is the only ones listing the replacement bulb for the HC720 at $199:eek:

N8M

10-15-07, 05:06 PM

Hmm, just did a search for the projector on the web and it appears that a local store has the HC 720 in stock.

As it's not too far away, i'll swing by while i'm out to have a look. :eek:

N8M

10-15-07, 05:08 PM

Oh, and PP appears to have stock according to their website. :eek:

SbWillie

10-15-07, 10:08 PM

guess VA is a little bit behind PP when it comes to who gets Epson's new stuff first.:rolleyes:

SbWillie

10-15-07, 10:12 PM

james.92

10-16-07, 01:20 AM

720 only has 1 HDMI input and cannot accept 1080p input per spec sheet. A little behind the times, don't you think?

SbWillie

10-16-07, 07:38 AM

if it won't accept 1080P to down convert then it's not the same as the 810 if memory serves...

fillydee

10-16-07, 08:41 AM

Does any one know the actual release date, besides "November". I can't wait to see how this one does. I hope it has video scaling for CH, but I know that is a long shot. None of the other Epson's have it.

fillydee

10-16-07, 08:50 AM

Nevermind. Looks like they are available for purchase. Who is going to be first?

N8M

10-16-07, 10:26 AM

720 only has 1 HDMI input and cannot accept 1080p input per spec sheet. A little behind the times, don't you think?

Would it be possible for you to link to said spec sheet?

N8M

10-16-07, 10:27 AM

Nevermind. Looks like they are available for purchase. Who is going to be first?
I'd love to be first, but need to work on the wife a bit more. :D

I wasn't able to confirm that the local shop near me has any in stock, but hopefully I can stop by tonight to check.

mjn

10-16-07, 11:15 AM

The1 HDMI port doesn't bother me as I have the mono 4 port HDMI switcher. But I am very anxious as to the final(and confirmed) specs of this PJ. With the 810 being only a couple of hundred more, if they skimp on the 720 the Pro 810 is still an option.

james.92

10-16-07, 01:54 PM

Would it be possible for you to link to said spec sheet?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_720.htm

Click on the PDF icon to download both pages.

N8M

10-16-07, 02:43 PM

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_720.htm

Click on the PDF icon to download both pages.

Great, thanks! :cool:

appleseed

10-16-07, 11:19 PM

It appears that PP is no longer offering the HC720 as it is not listed on their site anymore.

Having only one hdmi port is a non issue for me and I would presume a lot of folks. If I need more then I will buy a switcher, there cheap and keeps me from having to replace my receiver. Besides I'm not so lazy that I cant get up to manually do it, pain though it may be.:p

1080p is also a non issue as I do not have an HD/BD player nor the intention of getting one until everyone decides to get along and choose a format. The only HD source, if you can call it that, will be my 360. Of which will be set for 720p anyway. Besides 1080 i/p will have to be scaled to 720 anyway so I can hardly see how there will be a noticeable/discernible difference in picture quality.

Other features and issues however are another story. Leading me to a difficult decision.

Also .. I'm curious to know why theres not as much buzz about this projector as there has been with other recent listings?

fillydee

10-17-07, 09:10 AM

Maybe PP took it off, b/c maybe it isn't really in stock and ready to sell. When I said they were available was b/c you could put it in your cart at PP. Visual Apex still has it at pre-order, available in Nov. I also thought it was odd that PP was 1 franklin cheaper than apex, when apex has been cheaper than PP on their other Epson offerings.

I am definately interested in this unit. Maybe there isn't much of a buzz since it isn't available yet and probably nothing too new in features. Probably just the 810 / TW700 renamed as a "Home" version.

I hate to say it, but there may be more interest if Panny didn't fix the quality issues w/ the AX200. Time will tell. I really want the Panny to be reliable for the scope CH scaling ability.

appleseed

10-17-07, 06:51 PM

Well other than the few of us who have posted here, there seems to be a complete and total lack of interest for this projector. As far as I can tell anyway.

Also, from what I can tell the HC720 is the TW700, just given a new name. As such I now wonder how well the TW700 compares to the AX200. Will do a forum search and see if there is a vs on them.

SbWillie

10-17-07, 08:40 PM

the 700/810 was reviewed as a better projector than the 100...not sure about the 200.

WHY DID it disappear from PP,etc??

mjn

10-17-07, 09:07 PM

I would think people looking at the Ax100 and people looking at the AW15 would be very interested.

appleseed

10-17-07, 09:11 PM

Not sure why they no longer have it on there site. Guess I could call and ask them:D Couldnt find a VS on the two I mentioned. Maybe someone who has/had both could chim in. ( epson 810/700 VS AX200 )

Im also thinking we're looking at a late Nov. release if I had to guess.

SbWillie

10-17-07, 09:16 PM

I would think people looking at the Ax100 and people looking at the AW15 would be very interested.nieither would work for me...the 200 would be third or 4th on my list IF it is problem free still in 3 weeks time (absed on forum discussion)..THe AW15 is wayyy too dim for my LR even with the Black Flame screen I'm DIYin'.

SbWillie

10-17-07, 10:00 PM

It's still up on VA...expected to ship mid November...I'll be ready to order in exactly 3 weeks...won't wait the extra week.

So how close is this projector to the 810? I'm still a noob on the tech stuff but if it the 810 it's the best LCD for the price overall.

mjn

10-18-07, 04:48 PM

I have just been reading up on the 810, it seems a few reviews have commented on its soft image? It seems mid to high brightness, good blacks, and a sharp image is an impossible feat.

appleseed

10-18-07, 11:13 PM

Would anyone care to comment on an Epson 810 vs IN7210.

There is a forum member trying to get a deal on the Infocus for less than the what I'm now calling the 720/810.

This is not a guaranty however and I still may get the HC720 or the AX200.

The only real comparison I would like to know is the picture quality and reliability of the two. Thanks.

appleseed

10-19-07, 10:07 PM

Looks like VA has got the best deal on the HC720 so far. They are offering a 1yr extended warranty along w/ a 2yr lamp warranty. Not to mention, if you need one, they have a special on a projector mount if you buy an epson and also have the AVIA calibration disk for $10 less than normal.

SbWillie

10-20-07, 01:44 AM

I have just been reading up on the 810, it seems a few reviews have commented on its soft image? It seems mid to high brightness, good blacks, and a sharp image is an impossible feat.Art's reviews stated the 550 was soft but the 810 greatly improved on sharpness...only a couple of peeps here thought the image was real soft (on the off. 810 thread)

SbWillie

10-20-07, 01:46 AM

Just noticed some of the recent changes to the VA page.. in the past didn't u have to purchase an Epson proj. directly from Epson to qualify for overnight replacement?

jrwhite

10-20-07, 11:23 AM

You only have to purchase it from an authoried dealer to qualify for the next day replacement.

Jonathan

SbWillie

10-20-07, 11:30 AM

gg I'm ignorant..lol

SbWillie

10-20-07, 11:36 AM

anyone talked to Epson to get a straight answer on whether this is a rebadged 810?

IO should correct myself..the 810 was reviewed as being sharper than the 800-not 550.

appleseed

10-22-07, 09:07 PM

More info per link from main page of AVS.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/epson_announces_1300_720_hd_projector/C157/index.php/?cr=on

Linky #2
http://www.mysolutioninfo.com/news-display.aspx?Code=4555&t=Epson%20-%20the%20World%20s%20Number%20One%20Selling%20Projector%20Br and%20-%20Introduces%20the%20PowerLite%20Home%20Cinema%20720%20HD%2 0Projector%20for%20the%20Expanding%20Home%20Theater%20Market (http://www.mysolutioninfo.com/news-display.aspx?Code=4555&t=Epson%20-%20the%20World%20s%20Number%20One%20Selling%20Projector%20Br and%20-%20Introduces%20the%20PowerLite%20Home%20Cinema%20720%20HD%2 0Projector%20for%20the%20Expanding%20Home%20Theater%20Market )

jeffropaige

10-23-07, 01:25 AM

epson must be smoking something why is the 800 1999 msrp and the 810 1599 msrp???? are they just trying to confuse everybody ? the specs on the 810 seem better than the 800???? and now the 720 is 1299 msrp which from all of the specs is definetly a rebadged 810 which is cool with me but dude just come out and say it and price these things right. your driving me nuts over here. 800 should be 1000 msrp 720 1299 msrp and the 810 1299 msrp. i gotta be missing something here??????????? lol jeff

appleseed

10-24-07, 01:20 PM

Looks like PP has the HC720 back up on their site. Once again they are showing that it will ship in 1 to 2 days. The only thing changed is the price. So as of right now VA still has the best deal with the extra warranties and if your so inclined a pretty good deal on the avia disk( just click on the link for the disk to see the new price). Problem w/ VA is they still show an eta for Nov.

mjn

10-24-07, 03:25 PM

Does anyone know the ON/Off or ANSI contrast of this unit and how it might compare to the Sony AW15.

Zipplemeyer

10-24-07, 05:39 PM

cbaseuser

10-24-07, 06:18 PM

I wonder if they changed the annoying feature in the 810 whereby you can make changes to the grayscale and the CMS both not both at the same time. That, in my book is a huge fault and would preclude me from considering the Epson 720.

Moe

EXACTLY....what was their strategy there? Take your pick: perfect white balance or perfect colors, but not at the same time!!?!??!?! :mad:

ridiculous

oldrocker

10-30-07, 01:42 PM

Hi all,
Has no one bought one yet?
Sounds like great deal at V/A.

fillydee

11-05-07, 03:00 PM

I am hesitant to write this as I jumped the gun once before on some bad data at one of these sites, but the Epson HC720 is listed as in stock and ready to ship at both Visual Apex and Projector People.

If anyone gets a hold of one of these projectors, please give me/us your opinion on it.

It is down to this one and the PannyAX200 for me. I want to get the best bang for my buck on the latest projector offerings. I really would like to go w/ the Epson, but I think the 2nd HDMI input and CH scaling on the AX200 is probably going to win me over. Hopefully I'll have one of these by Christmas. I'm going on a big push to get my room functional by then.

mjn

11-12-07, 11:55 AM

Nobody?

dstr5725

11-12-07, 03:19 PM

VA just extended the Warranty offer, and is now also throwing in a free mount and dust cover till the end of the week.

I decided to bite the bullet. My Z3 has serious blue polarizer burn and the lamp is due to die any minute. I've always had good experiences with epson products in general and looking forward to seeing how this baby performs.

I'll post some pics once she gets here.

mjn

11-12-07, 03:49 PM

Great, thank you for your trailblazing. Looking forward to your pics and impressions, especially where sharpness and black level are concerned. I hope you are rewarded.

N8M

11-12-07, 08:37 PM

Great, thank you for your trailblazing. Looking forward to your pics and impressions, especially where sharpness and black level are concerned. I hope you are rewarded.
Ditto from me, I hope this machine is fantastic.

The fact that I can get one locally for the same price as the US, and Epson's strong history of warranty service definitely have me intrigued.

N8M

11-13-07, 01:29 PM

I sent Art @ ProjectorReviews an email last night, and he advised that a review of the HC 720 would possibly be coming after the Thanksgiving holiday.

I get the impression that he has contacted them for a sample projector and is waiting to hear back.

fillydee

11-14-07, 09:16 AM

Glad to see some movement on this model. Looking forward to seeing some reviews.

dstr5725

11-15-07, 11:59 AM

So my unit arrived yesterday. I have to say I'm very impressed by VA and am glad I decided to go through them. Very quick and eager to please.

Haven't taken any pictures yet, but damn is this thing bright. I currently table mount to a 92" greywolf screen and its default "living room" setting is simply too bright, even in ambient lighting. I plan on mounting a shelf close to the ceiling to place this projector (rent an apartment, so can't really bother with nicely mounting this thing). I have been using Theatre Black 2 in ambient lighting with Dynamic Iris on.

Performance has blown me away. Much better contrast than the z3 ever had, specifically in shadow details. I watched some "Three Sheets" on mojo and there was footage of a grinder used in rum making which had lots of small scratches on its darkened surface. All the ridges glistened slightly and had a depth which was simply never present in such dark areas on a z3.

Overall black level is a good bit lower, probably half the grey level of the z3. The black level is also completely neutral and I didn't notice an influence of any particular color (this was always a problem on the z3 even before my polarizer started to go, it always shifted towards blue in the blacks)

Also, performance with SD material is noticeably better. I haven't ran tests with comparing its scaler to my upscaling dvd player, but it definately deinterlaces better than the chip in my receiver that I use for Comcast.

If you guys have any configuration tests/questions feel free to post 'em.

rxdude

11-15-07, 01:26 PM

Overall black level is a good bit lower, probably half the grey level of the z3.

Sorry, I'm a little confused. To be clear, are you saying that the z3 "black" is actually grey, and the 720 is about 50% "blacker"?

Thanks for your review!

fillydee

11-15-07, 04:11 PM

Last year the TW700 had some professional reviews saying that it produced a very clean image. I have seen a few reviews stating the AX200's std def image is a little lacking with some grain and image noise. Therefore it may have a leg up over the AX200 in that regard and at least spec wise it has a better contrast ratio. There is a chance we may have a projector that puts out a beter image than the AX200with similar brightness, but at the expensive of no internal CH scaling, and only (1) HDMI:(

Definately need a side by side shootout

Decisions, Decisions ....

dstr5725

11-15-07, 04:13 PM

Sorry, I'm a little confused. To be clear, are you saying that the z3 "black" is actually grey, and the 720 is about 50% "blacker"?

Thanks for your review!

Yes, the 720 is significantly closer to a pure black as opposed to a dim grey. It still has some light passing through, but it is much closer to film projection than the z3 was ever able to muster.

Today I put on "Dynamic" mode while watching the morning news during sunrise. I have windows facing the screen covered by plain white metalic blinds. Even in this setting with a substantial amount of sunlight I would describe Dynamic and Living Room as simply too bright. The Natural and Theatre settings were very watchable and had great depth in this setting.

rxdude

11-15-07, 04:41 PM

Yes, the 720 is significantly closer to a pure black as opposed to a dim grey. It still has some light passing through, but it is much closer to film projection than the z3 was ever able to muster.

Today I put on "Dynamic" mode while watching the morning news during sunrise. I have windows facing the screen covered by plain white metalic blinds. Even in this setting with a substantial amount of sunlight I would describe Dynamic and Living Room as simply too bright. The Natural and Theatre settings were very watchable and had great depth in this setting.

Thanks. When you get a chance, can you post your impression of the fan noise in the various settings?

dstr5725

11-15-07, 05:23 PM

Thanks. When you get a chance, can you post your impression of the fan noise in the various settings?

In high brightness modes, as loud as the z3. Noticeable, but not an xbox 360 by any means. In "low brightness" i can't hear it from sitting 3-5 feet away.

jrwhite

11-15-07, 05:54 PM

Hi dstr5725,

How is the white field uniformity when you're using the most telephoto position of the zoom? Do you see any pink to blue left to right?

How is the panel mis-convergence when you throw up the grid test pattern?

thanks,

Jonathan

mrad

11-15-07, 10:02 PM

Any vertical banding (one of my pet peeves)?

baca

11-15-07, 11:19 PM

what about sharpness? how would u describe it? how does it work with standard televison signal, like cable tv or something, what about shadow detail?, r u able to watch it in dynamic mode or the picture is unwatchable? (like washed out colours, etc), thx a lot,raff

mcluhanprophecy

11-16-07, 06:42 AM

I've had my TW700 for 11 months (purchased from Japan via EP) and regarding black levels I have to say that last week I watched that Tom Hanks Doc on the Apollo Moon Program. There is both documentary real footage and "staged" footage. On the moon you have scenes that contain huge amounts of solid black and very bright in the vistas. I was impressed with the blacks and with the contrast. Note the dynamic iris on the Epson can be noisy. No problems otherwise with the Epson. And I'm considering their Home 1080P
for another installation but may wait to see their new UB line. But may also go with another 720 P if the 1080's don't come down in price. ( I plan to buy from Japan directly, in any case, one way or another) Do look at the Hanks film for great pics and for a piece of history.

dstr5725

11-16-07, 11:28 AM

Any vertical banding (one of my pet peeves)?

Nope.

what about sharpness? how would u describe it? how does it work with standard televison signal, like cable tv or something, what about shadow detail?, r u able to watch it in dynamic mode or the picture is unwatchable? (like washed out colours, etc), thx a lot,raff

As I said its great with standard def. It does not accentuate artifacting and does a great job of blowing it up in the various zoom/squeeze modes.

It is a softer image than my sanyo, but it also has less noticable sde.

High brightness modes are not washed out. The colors are vibrant. I would say for me its unwatchable because its so bright in my rather small room that it causes eye strain.

I have my copy of Avia at work from doing some monitor calibration. I'll be sure to bring it home this weekend and take some pictures along with doing some more technical test patterns.

baca

11-16-07, 12:16 PM

is your z3 a lot sharper?, would u describe hc720 as too soft?, I wanted to buy one but wanted to check the sharpness level first, since HC400 was a little bit too soft for me, was wondering if they used better optics or video processor on this one, thx a lot for your info, raff

fillydee

11-16-07, 03:44 PM

Dstr,

Could you please look at the model number tag on the bottom of the unit. Does it say HC720 or TW700? I am almost willing to bet it says TW700...

When the Epson HC1080 came out it said TW1000 which confirmed it was the same as it's overseas counterpart.

If it says TW700 that just confirms it is the exact same unit that was available last year. However I'm hoping it isn't, so there may be some improvements. Thanks.

jrwhite

11-16-07, 04:11 PM

fillydee,

The HC400 is badged as the TW550, but the specs are different than the 550. So, I think even if it's marked TW700 ( which I bet it is too ) it's no guarantee its the exact same unit.

BTW, I find with my 400 that the image is much sharper if you feed it upscaled SD, assuming a good scaler at the component end. I seem to remember the reviews reflected this too.

Jonathan

mjn

11-17-07, 10:53 PM

He must be sitting in his apartment loving his projector. Which is a good sign. I am not sure how sharp the Z3(which dstr5725 said was sharper than the HC720 :( ) but I hope the HC720 got the TW700 optics.

With the advancements of LCD 720p projects coming to a screeching halt. I can't think a more crucial time in LCD 720p projector history where a LCD 720p head to head to head to head to head t shootout was more needed. With Split screen shots and direct comparisons

Sony VPL-AW15
SANYO Z5
PANNY AX200 With a AX100 Present for a sub comparison
EPSON H720
BENQ 500W

and the DLPs deserve one too, but am not privy to the pertinent models as I get dizzy watching them. Same goes for them.

dstr5725

11-18-07, 06:36 PM

Sorry guys, been busy enjoying the new projector and chillin with my girl (she's taking the GRE so she studies during the week and I only really see her on weekends).

The model is EMP TW-720. I think on average sanyos are considered very sharp projectors. I would not say the softness of the 720 is distracting but it is noticeably softer than the z3. That being said, it does not accenuate artifacting like the z3 did and the more I watch SD material with it the more pleased I am.

Watched "Over the Hedge" in HD on Comcast and was blown away by how detailed the dark scenes were.

I promise I will take some pics and do some testing soon. Every time I get a new projector it takes me a minute to get over the initial wow factor. Hard to take time to do tests when you are constantly muttering to yourself "this looks so amazing".

jrwhite

11-18-07, 11:11 PM

Interesting that it boasts a TW moniker, usually the Euro / Asian counterpart of an NA model. The cine4home Epson tour only showed the TW680 as a new model, and the TW700 as a continuing model. So, I guess it must have some new stuff. Maybe for once NA gets an Epson model that Europe / Asia doesn't?

Jonathan

geezerpl

11-19-07, 09:08 AM

a LCD 720p head to head shootout was more needed. With Split screen shots and direct comparisons

SANYO Z5
PANNY AX200 With a AX100 Present for a sub comparison
EPSON H720

Here you go: http:// w w w . b e i s a m m e n . d e /thread.php?threadid=78255</b>

mjn

11-19-07, 08:12 PM

Yea I saw that one a while ago. Very nice shoot out. Looks like pictures are down now. If I remember( I don't currently have the translation) it was out of the box only. and the Z5 needs color adjustments out of the box. Plus I would like to see the Sony in the mix as its the only one I have seen extensively.

But thank you. that is a great shoot out. Nothing better than those side by side shots. :)

ToxinLab

11-21-07, 11:30 AM

I would really like to see the brightness numbers/real world experience compared between the 200U and the Epson. I remember that the last review of these Epsons said that their ANSI numbers were underestimated--but is it really as bright as the Panny? Is it perhaps brighter? If it is comparable in brightness, is the LightHarmonizer still an advantage or make any difference at all?

Maybe I should send this as an email to Evan Powell at PC.

mjn

11-21-07, 05:38 PM

I got a good look at the Epson 400 today and got to play with it a bit, not to much but the salesmans said he had ran Avia on it a few weeks ealier and the colors looked very good. Even the Blacks were down right good, not great but good. But I just couldn't get it sharp. It was soft. I saw some HD sports and a bit of HD-DVD. And some DVR'ed Three Sheets which I had just seen last night on MY HS10.(not the same episode). This thing was Soft soft soft. Yea, it was HD and there was some definition there. but no eye popping. It was an unacceptable projector for me.

Anyway, I need to know if the HC720 has the 400 optics or not because the 400 lack of sharpness takes it out of contension.

My mind is currently boggled that there is thread after thread(many negative) about the panny ax200 and seeming hundreds of people who have bought them. And this point the Epson with better spec-ed blacks, similar brightness, a significantly better quality control reputation, and a has a total know ownership group of 1.

I am ready to buy but the lack of information on this last available model is stifling me. Its really the one that has the most of what I need if all its promises are met. Thumb twiddling is driving me crazy.

jrwhite

11-21-07, 06:41 PM

mjn,

the 720 does have different optics. It has a 2:1 zoom where the 400 has a 1.5:1. It most likely has the lens from the TW700 / PC810.

As far as 'softeness', if your room can accomodate it, you'd probably like something the Mits HC1500 better. It's very 'sharp'. ( I have both a Mits 1000 and HC400 ). If you need to stick with LCD for flexibility, maybe you should stick with Sony. Their panels have always had a 'sharper' look.

The important factor is resolving power. I haven't done anything but cursory tests, but both projectors will resolve 720p patterns without a problem. It comes down to what you like in an image. If it's sharp, then I would tend to recommend DLP's.

Jonathan

mjn

11-21-07, 10:13 PM

At a glance I love DLPs, and I haven't given one a chance in 2 years, maybe I will try to sit down and watch one again. The last time I did(and I didn't know it was a DLP(I got Seasick). I love the Sony, and actually ordered it and had some uniformity issues and refunded it out, I am not against giving it another try, but i am giving up my 92" diag home theater with dark walls and ceiling for a rec room with lighter walls, a bit of ambient light and a 106" diag screen(I want to go 110") but seems all the screens coming 106" diag these days. But a DLP would be pefrect as I will be in a wide open are and noise level and heat output are less of an issue. Maybe I will see if I can find a demo and see if the latest faster colorwheels make a diiference. I really want blacks, sharpness, and brightness wraped into into one(who doesn't I guess).

I just wish the details, reviews, and opinions would comepout on this unit. All the other units had revies , shootouts, screenshots, and huger user threads seemingly withing hours of their release. Yet here I twiddle.

How are the 1500s blacks and brightness?

Chad T

11-21-07, 11:07 PM

I'm also interested in hearing more about this projector. It's listed #7 most popular among 720P projectors on projectorcentral.com. Also, Visual Apex is showing it as their #4 best selling projector. SOMEBODY out there is buying'em.

jrwhite

11-21-07, 11:28 PM

Hi mjn,

I was actually suprised that the 400's blacks were as close to the 1000 as they were. I use a CRT in our main theatre, so I can't really gush over the 1000's blacks, but, overall I'd say they are quite acceptable and satisfying. If you think you might be slightly DLP artifact prone, I'd consider saving a bit and getting the HD80. I thought it was stunning when I saw it at a trade show in a good, blackout demo room. I tend to see rainbows, and in a hour of viewing I couldn't see a single one with the HD80.

Although I've never seen one in person, the HC3000 might be another contender for you. Very sharp and well balanced, and within the same price range these days as the 400 / 1500.

Too keep this on topic, I prefer the look of the 400 for watching movies. I consider it's look 'smooth' rather than 'soft'. The one time I saw the 810, it wasn't under ideal conditions so I can't comment with any authority, but it did look 'sharper' than then 400. From what everyone here has dug up so far about the 720, it appears it is an improved TW700 / PC810.

Good luck in your quest!

Jonathan

mjn

11-22-07, 01:52 AM

Thanks I am looking at this as fun rather than frustrating and waiting for a a good review or shoot out on the HC720, until then maybe I will seek out some fo the Projectors you mentioned and see if I can find some local Demoed DLPs, but I have been to all or most of the stores demo-ing PJs within a reasonable distance. Come on reviewers and HC720 Owners!!!!!!!

N8M

11-22-07, 02:18 PM

Update from Art @ Projectorreviews.com:

I was hoping to hear yesterday, but, alas, no word. I'm waiting on 3 different Epson projector to review in the next 4-5 weeks: The 720, the 1080UB, and the all-in-one MovieMate 72.

My priorities as described to Epson are: 1080, 720, Moviemate

However, it is most likely that a 720 will be available shortly, ahead of availability of the 1080ub, So, with a little luck, I'll get one by the end of next week, and have a review posted a week later.

Epson has committed to the product for reviews. As soon as I have a shipping date, as usual, I'll post the arrival date and anticipated review date at the top of the upper right column on the home page."

Looks like we'll have a review in a couple weeks. (or three)

mcluhanprophecy

11-22-07, 03:11 PM

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/plhc720/plhc720ug.pdf

here's their guide and it looks like a tw700/810 to me

Chad T

11-23-07, 08:51 PM

I talked to some Epson dealers today. Some are getting shipments and some aren't. A lof of the lack of interest could be due to lack of product. From the specs, this seems like a great projector. VA has them in stock and I'm so close to jumping in on their current deal, but I sure wish there was a good review out.

mjn

11-24-07, 01:25 AM

Its like a cricket convention. I know dstr5725 has a lot going on and only sees his girlfriend on the weekend, so I can only hope he finds the time to time sit back and take some pics but with limited time with his women he can't be blamed I certainly remember that time in my relationship and a projector was not top priority. Now away days the first 100 hours with my projector is like a calibration and screen shot carnival, but I got 2 kids and its an escape for me. I personally need to make a decision soon and with the panasonic problems starting to roll in like the sniffles at the ER on Saturday night, I really really really would like to get some feedback on this unit. The only spec that has me worried on paper is the 33db. Thats is a jet engine. and is equal to my current Sony HS10 . even the 26db in eco mode is nothing to write home about. But I can over look this, if I can get a confirmation on the sharpness, blacks, and brightness. but the sheer silences is deafening.

mjn

11-25-07, 02:54 PM

I will mail a crisp $100 monopoly bill and one of those really good butterscotch oval hard candies to anyone that can further this thread with any first had information. I just got back from 80 mile journey and saw 5 Epson projectors on display. 3 400s and 2 800s. All of which were not not calibrated(I hope). The 800s were soft as were the 400s. Every salesman looked at me like I was asking about some far unreachable distant future that may never come when I asked of the elusive HC720. One told me it was never going to be produced, but he did have one Cinema pro 810 left in The back for he could part with for $3xxx. Wow, what luck. I asked him why wasn't it on display? He said he said because it will sell without displaying it. ..OK?I didn't even bother telling him the home 810 is less than half that right now. Man I hate salesman.

Is there anybody out there with a few minutes to give a review? I just had an unexpected financial hiccup or i would have just said heck with it and bought one of the ~$2500 1080p projectors. But as it is $1300 is all I can swing right now. I will even need to hold off on buying screen and do a temp 110" DIY.

Nick Smith

11-25-07, 04:34 PM

mjn,

You could just buy the 720 from an online retailer with a decent return policy (if used under a certain amount of hours). All you'd be out is the return shipping ($15?) if you didn't like it....many retailers offer free shipping to you, so that wouldn't cost you a thing. This way you could see it first hand in your own house.

mjn

11-25-07, 06:57 PM

I have thought about that, and may do that. But i have to build quite a very odd little mount around the projector when it gets here and have been through3 projectors(same model returned due to defects) this summer. And just need some general feedback. to make sure I am in the right ball park with my choice.

Nick Smith

11-25-07, 11:31 PM

Ahh, I see. I'm also a little interested in the 720, but not so much so to go ahead and buy one before Art does his review.

MolsonH

12-03-07, 12:29 PM

Still no reviews? That German shootout seemed to think the epson was real good

Steerforth

12-03-07, 06:20 PM

http://www.avdeals.ca/productreviews/epsonhomecinema_firstlook.htm

That's a partial review. No hard numbers on anything, just first impressions. Excellent image, very good black levels, and exceptionally bright. I really want a comparative review though. Oh, well. Better than nothing.

Keep in mind, too, that they're trying to sell them, so...

jmuffat

12-03-07, 07:22 PM

to point to this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=947836

I finished calibrating my HC720 with SD DVE, both on PS3 and HD-A2 (quite a few differences), and it looks great, I'll post my settings shortly. At least to my demanding, yet untrained (read not familiar with amazing projectors) eye, it looks VERY good. I even managed to calibrate it in dynamic mode for very decent color accuracy, so I'm happy with it with quite a bit of ambient light.

J.

mjn

12-03-07, 07:40 PM

I got a good looks at the Epson 1080p today, the store i was at was working on the fiber optic ceiling and the guys kept turning the lights on and off. and there were no chairs in the room. It looked good, but I couldn't get it as sharp as I would like, but it was moderately sharp. But it was hard to tell with two guys tearing open boxes and switching lights on and off. I first thought it was the HC720, but nope it was the 1080p. Only source they had was DTV so that might be why I couldn't get it razor sharp.

Steerforth

12-03-07, 07:43 PM

jmuffat, the reviewer in that link I posted mentioned a "folding" problem sending a 1080p signal from his PS3, and that it went away when he set the PS3 signal to 720p. Are you using 1080p, and have you noticed anything like this?

HDholic

12-03-07, 09:34 PM

Has anyone here come from using a DLP projector?

Basically, I can't make up a decision on which way to go. I'm looking at something better than the HC1500 and I'm considering this model along w. DT-500, Z3000 or VP4001. Having never seen an LCD based projector, I don't know how different they feel.

Anyone can post comments? Do LCD's have less "3D look" on mixed scenes, as I've heard that DLP have better ANSI contrast? What else?

gottahavapj

12-04-07, 12:41 AM

Steerforth

12-07-07, 06:51 AM

Reviewer says HC720 "by a mile" over the PLV-Z5:

http://www.avdeals.ca/productreviews/epson720_vs_sanyoplvz5.htm

I would have preferred a shootout with the Panny, but that retailer doesn't carry them, so they have no interest in something like that. No screencaps, BTW. Just data and observations.

12-07-07, 11:39 AM

If anyone who has seen this projector (or the 810) and has also seen the Infocus 4805 please comment on the comparative SDE between these projectors.

TIA

mjn

12-07-07, 01:29 PM

Well at least the site is selling both projectors. The utter shellacking of the Z5 worries me. Its a pretty good projectors. I wish a few more the owners would put up some reviews and screenshots and impressions compared to there last pjs.

12-10-07, 07:09 AM

I just bought the Epson Home Cinema 720.

I currently own an Infocus SP-4805 (480p DLP) which was a fanatistic value projector in its day (actually still is), but after ~4 years and 1500 hours its lamp had dimmed enough to need replacing. I decided to look at buying a new/brighter projector vs a new lamp.

I was looking at either the Epson or the Panasonic AX-200U and finally pulled the trigger on the Epson, because of reliability concerns with the Panasonic. I have never owned a LCD projector and was concerned about SDE, but it turned out to be a non-issue coming from the 4805. I was hoping the increased resolution of the Epson would balance out the better fill-factor of the 4805 and that appears to be the case. In fact I would say SDE on the Epson is a little less noticable than on the 4805.

I watched some HD football last night and then "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" and pretty much out-of-the-box the Epson beats the 4805 in most areas including brightness, sharpness, blacks and shadow detail. The only place where I might say the 4805 is better is in 480i de-interlacing.

I'm projecting a 96" wide (110" diagonal) image from 16.5' onto a Da-Lite Hi-Power screen. With this screen and projector combination daytime sports viewing in a family room with a wall of windows on the right side is actually tolerable.

gottahavapj

12-10-07, 04:34 PM

12-11-07, 07:49 AM

Thanks for the feedback bk....

I think I finally have the OK from the wife to do an upgrade to something in this price range from a 3.5 year old Optoma DLP. I too am concerned with going from DLP to LCD but it is the only way I can get a ~90" diagonal image from ~9'. My primary concern was image sharpness as I've heard people call Epson LCD's "soft". I think your 4805 is at least as sharp as my Optoma and you indicated the 720 was sharper. That is encouraging. Also that you indicated the blacks and shadow detail were better than the 4805 as well.

Do you notice or hear the dynamic iris thing happening or do you have it disabled?

Thanks..

gottahavapj

I don't want to oversell the Epson 720 - I may have been overly effusive in praise without hard evidence. I had to decided on either buying a new lamp for my 4805 or buying a new projector, and at this point I am still happy with my choice to buy the Epson. For what it's worth I have 7 more days to decide on keeping or returning the Epson, but I plan on keeping it. I was also considering the Panasonic AX200 and might have purchased it over the Epson if not for the reliability issues the AX200 seems to be facing.

I haven't really calibrated the Epson and only watched one DVD (the new "Pirates") and some HD TV. I had the projector set in "Theater Black I" mode for the DVD and didn't notice the iris in action, but I believe it's on in that mode. That movie has quite a few dark scenes and the shadow detail seemed better than I recall the 4805 capable of, but I haven't watched that particular movie on the 4805. I will put in the 1st Lord of the Rings and watch the scenes from the Mines of Moria to compare my recollection of the 4805 vs the Epson.

shaurya

12-11-07, 09:57 AM

gottahavapj

I don't want to oversell the Epson 720 - I may have been overly effusive in praise without hard evidence. I had to decided on either buying a new lamp for my 4805 or buying a new projector, and at this point I am still happy with my choice to buy the Epson. For what it's worth I have 7 more days to decide on keeping or returning the Epson, but I plan on keeping it. I was also considering the Panasonic AX200 and might have purchased it over the Epson if not for the reliability issues the AX200 seems to be facing.

I haven't really calibrated the Epson and only watched one DVD (the new "Pirates") and some HD TV. I had the projector set in "Theater Black I" mode for the DVD and didn't notice the iris in action, but I believe it's on in that mode. That movie has quite a few dark scenes and the shadow detail seemed better than I recall the 4805 capable of, but I haven't watched that particular movie on the 4805. I will put in the 1st Lord of the Rings and watch the scenes from the Mines of Moria to compare my recollection of the 4805 vs the Epson.

Hello BK,

Congrats on your purcahse. I am also planning to buy this PJ.
Can you please comment on 720's upconvert feature. How good a regular dvd (without any upscaling/upconverting in the flow) looks thru the PJ. I mean if I hook up a regulard DVD player(non upconverting/scaling) directly to PJ, what kind of pic quality are you getting.

Regards, Shaurya

12-11-07, 03:49 PM

Shaurya,

I feed the Epson 480i via component from my Sony DVP-NS775v DVD player. I'm not a hard-cord videophile and don't try to look for issues, but I didn't notice any deinterlacing artifacts watching "Pirates of the Caribbean : End of the World" the other night. I can't say how the movie would have looked from an upscaling player, but I was happy with the way it handled 480i over component (I expect it to be even better once calibrated).

I have noticed some minor artifacts watching SD TV that might be deinterlacing issues that I didn't see with my Infocus 4805, but I don't know if it's because the Epson's Pixelworks processor isn't as good as the 4805's Faroudja, or the artifacts are just more visible with the Epson and I hadn't notices them with the 4805.

Before anyone wonders why 480i it's because I have an older Mits RPTV whose component inputs can't accept progressive signals also hooked up to the same DVD player and I don't want to have to constantly "fix" the DVD player when my kids watch a movie on the TV. :)

shaurya

12-11-07, 04:19 PM

Thanks bk for your response.

I am going to pull the trigger. Did lot of heads & tails b/w epson 720 and ax200u. Although the coin was fair, I was not fair with ax200u due to known issues. Would you like to share the place/price for this puppy via PM.

Any comments on brightness....I mean day light viewing.

Regards, Shaurya

12-11-07, 08:43 PM

I have my projector in a two-story family room which has a bank of 15, yes 15, windows on the right wall of the room, and it's open to the kitchen on the back side. It's a great area for parties and watching sports.

I project onto a Da-Lite Hi-Power and with the Epson 720 watching football Sunday afternoon in HD was at least tolerable. I wouldn't watch a movie in those conditions.

mjn

12-12-07, 06:44 PM

I can't believe we can't get a review sooner. You would think epson would overnight one to a reviewer somewhere. I all I really want is a good well put together comparison with the HC720 and PJ I have seen focusing on contrast, sharpness, and over all picture. I have seen the AW15, AX200(AX100), Epson 1080p, Sanyp z5, Sony HS10. I have also seen the Epson 400.

mjg100

12-12-07, 08:08 PM

gottahavapj

12-12-07, 09:12 PM

How did you like the Epson 400?
According to one of his posts about 3 weeks ago- he said it looked "soft, soft, soft". That definitely has me concerned. I could probably put up with many of the other faults some of these budget PJ's are displaying, but a soft picture ain't one of 'em. :)

Cheers!

MrPenPad

12-12-07, 10:39 PM

mjn

12-12-07, 10:56 PM

The 400 was definitely soft, , totally unacceptable to me.. I couldn't stop playing with the focus, I thought the thing was broke. I kept changing channels hoping something was wrong, but it was just the pj. This is the reason I haven't pulled the trigger on the HC720. I understand why they cant easily do bright with good blacks. But for the life of me I can't understand why there isn't an LCD with good brightness and a sharp picture available. And with the Epson 810 supposedly having great blacks and great brightness, where is the sharpness? A few reviews call it soft on HD material. A was very happy with the Sony AW15s sharpness and blacks when I had one for a while in the summer, but I am moving into a ambient light filled room and need the flexibility of a higher brightness PJ. Man I wish DLPS didn't give me the spins. The Epson HC720 with a sharper lens would be the one, done deal. No questions asked. But I haven't been able to see one, or get a good review, and the few choice words I have read on it say its not as sharp as a Z3, so I am currently stuck with a very sharp, but very green Sony Hs10 with totally fried blue polarizers. It seems everyone that has upgraded their HS10/20 doesn't want to part with them(I don't blame them). At this point if i could gt the polarizers for $150 for the pair i would just swap them out and wait another year for 1080p. But I am not going to put $350 into the HS10. This was kind of fun waiting and watching, but now I am getting frustrated. I never thought I would see a projector out for 2-3 months and get 2 or 3 brief paragraphs about its performance and no reviews. I got the family coming over for Christmas Eve and would like to have more than a washed out green HS10 to show off.

Steerforth

12-12-07, 11:52 PM

Decided it was time to retire the old Hitatchi SX5500 LCOS. it took 6 years for me to find a better fp :o Though I had my sights set on the z5, I "settled":rolleyes: for the Epson 720. After reading the short review at avdeals (THANKS steerforth !) I'm optimistic that the 720 will bring me out of the dark and carry me through to the next Decennial or maybe the 2nd gen 1080p fp's.

You're welcome, MrPenPad. :) That review was brief, but very promising. I'm just waiting on Art's review at PR to make a final decision. I know it's unscientific, but his screenshots cut through all of the technobabble and confusion inherently associated with these devices.

Please let us know your thoughts as soon as possible.

Toby1Kenobi

12-12-07, 11:57 PM

Just got mine. Definately better than the Z5 in my opinion, and no misconvergence. There was some obvious (what looks like light bleed) in the corners with the out of the box brightness settings, but went away completely when I switched to Theater Black 1.

Anyone else notice that, or was it just mine?

mjn

12-13-07, 12:23 AM

What about sharpness and contrast/blacks compared to the Z5?

Toby1Kenobi

12-13-07, 01:00 AM

I found the sharpness to be very comparable to the Z5, if not a little sharper (Although I haven't had it very long so thats not definitive whether or not it's actually sharper) but if you're worried about the picture being soft, don't.

The blacks are excellent. I'm probably not the best person to ask for a comparison to the Z5 on blacks though, as my Z5 had the blue corner problem pretty bad, so I'm a little biased on that.

mjn

12-13-07, 02:12 AM

Thats quite encouraging. The Z5 I saw was so sharp, I would be pleased if the HC720 was in the same ball park. Do you still have your Z5?

gottahavapj

12-13-07, 01:09 PM

mjn

12-13-07, 02:17 PM

Are their any brick and mortar stores carrying this projector. The local Hometheater Electronic stores that carry epson all have to order it. If I want to try it as a test, and decide to pick one up locally, having them order it defeats the purpose, in that case I can just order one off the internet myself?

dbrunsti

12-13-07, 03:57 PM

I am not sure how many HH Gregg stores there are around the country but they carry them. They currently have them for $1149.

mjn

12-13-07, 04:07 PM

Never heard of them, but it looks there is one about 100 miles away in Indiana. Thanks. Looks like a cool store(from their website) There has got to be someone that has them in Chicagoland.

Chad T

12-13-07, 10:07 PM

Has anybody heard if Art has received an HC720 from Epson yet?

mjn

12-14-07, 02:50 AM

Does anyone know the deatails of the 2 year lamp waranty offered by Visual apex, I am having trouble finding details on their site? Any other general experiences about buying from them? restocking fees? etc?

fillydee

12-14-07, 09:23 AM

Wow, HHGreg has them, I wouldn't of thought of that and comes in at least $100 cheaper than online. I guess once you figure in sales tax the difference goes down, but still a good alternative. I guess it just depends on what freebees come with it (ceiling mount, ext waranty, etc) to really evaluate what the better deal is. I was going to go back to Visual Apex as they were good to me w/ my Panny 300. We will see.

One plus for HHgreg, they have some pretty good deals. I picked up a Toshiba A3 w/ (5) movies from them on black friday for $149 and a Sony 5.1 receiver (component and HDMI switching, no s-video, no upconversion) for $95. And that one wasn't even a black friday special. It is really sort of an inflexible receiver, but providing you have components with the right connections, you can't beat the price.

chansen

12-14-07, 10:11 AM

I picked up one from my local HH Gregg. Don't forget to ask for a discount. I have never been told no by HH Gregg. I offered the salesman $100 less than their price. He told me he would try to get $50 off for me. When he came back from his discussion with the manager, the price was $150 lower. Sometimes our educational system does pay off.:D I pointed out to him that it was less than I offered before he completed the checkout. I didn't want him to get fired for giving me the wrong price, but they honored it.

I upgraded from a 4805. I sold my 4805 with my old house. It was near the end of life on its second bulb. My new basement is still under construction, but just projecting on a white wall is impressive. There is no comparision, in my eyes, on SDE between the 4805 and the 720. The resolution makes the SDE a non issue for me. My old screen was 80 inches wide so 16x9 was 92 inches. I am projecting this one at 106 inches diag.

What screen would people recommend for this projector? Most of the readily available at the B&Ms around me have a 1.8 gain. Would that be too bright?

mjn

12-14-07, 03:05 PM

gottahavapj

12-14-07, 04:12 PM

Toby,

what about audible noise? how loud were the fans?
Another one disappears into his cave to watch movies after a couple of tantalizing posts :D

mjn

12-14-07, 06:30 PM

We get them for about an hour, then gone forever. Thats got to be a good, frustrating, but good. :)

Archon

12-14-07, 07:31 PM

I just got my HC720, my first projector and it blows away my old 50 LCD RPTV and it blows away any "panel" display I've ever seen at Best Buy.

For those who know calibration, how best should I go about tweaking each mode? Any hints with EPSON parameters? There seems to be a LOT of settings for each mode.

Please help and thanks

greenos

12-16-07, 09:37 PM

I got my Epson720 on thursday.... I have put about 12 hours on it and let me say this is one of the best purchases I have ever made... HD conent is amazing ... I am still waiting for my screen to arrive and am viewing on a beige wall and it still looks damn good not blurry....

Now all I have to do is finish my home theatre room....

12-17-07, 01:59 PM

Toby,

what about audible noise? how loud were the fans?

Mine is mounted about 4 feet above my head (when seated) and I can only hear the slight sound of air moving when really listening for it. Compared to my Infocus 4805 previously mounted in the same spot it is silent.

mjn

12-18-07, 12:53 AM

I got a really long look at one today. I did no tweaks or calibration. So everything I mention can only get better.

The blacks were outstanding, neck and neck with the AW15, possibly a touch better, possibly a touch worse, impossible to tell with out a side by side.

The colors were also outstanding, Dynamic mode was bright and colors were way off, the rest of the brighter moder modes were off as well, but normal mode(fairly bright) looked good, and the theater modes looked great.

Sharpness was a notch below the AW15, Some scenes seemed sharp as a tack, some were a little off, never soft, but not always super sharp. I watched Monday Night football and that Turf in Minnesota looked so so, but the closeups looked great, so I think it was the cameras at the dome. Colors were awesome.

The shadow detail of the HC720 wins over the AW15 from what I remember, this was one of the AW15s weaknesses, the dark blacks were great but alot of detail was lost. I 720 seems to show more detail.

I noticed alot of noise over HDMI, its an DVI cable with 2 DVI to hdmi adapters on the ends and an HDMI switcher, I hope thats the reason why. I didn't get to test any sources on component except xbox(non 360) which looked fine.

HD-DVD looked very good, but not as sharp as I would like(and some noise), also using the DVI cable and an HDMI Switcher.

Since I am going to use this as an everyday TV in a living room I am 99% sure I am going to get it, I was intimidated by all the possible setting, but glad they are there so I can learn them. I would like to sharpen up the picture and reduce the noise if possible. Or at least know its possible before purchase.

We also watched on a Dalite highpower 92 inch and I will be looking to go with a 1.3 gain in the 106 to 110" range. (all numbers in diags)

If this thing was super sharp it would be perfect.

I also noticed the credits at the end of an HD-DVD were a bit jerky but not in the movie its self, I went back and checked 10 or so scenes and found nothing but smoothness, only the end credits.

Also the thing was extremely quite. the HD-A2 12 feet away made more noise than the HC720 3ft over my head.

Screen door was there, but less then the AW15, but Screen door has never bothered me, I like sharp more than I dislike screen door.

Edit.....

Well, the noise and lack of sharpness I saw on HD-DVD was on some scenes of Transformers. I just popped in Batman Returns HD-DVD and it was very sharp and much less(if any) noise.

Anthony*gw

12-18-07, 05:41 AM

Great impressions mjn. I also have this pj and the ax200 in my radar and am waiting a review from projectorreviews. i'm more leaning towards the 720, so i hope it gets great reviews. Tell me somthing, i've read numerous threads about a noisey picture on sd-dvd with the ax200, how does the 720 fair in this regard?

mjn

12-18-07, 01:13 PM

I don't know I put in the 5th element and again some scenes are crystal and some grainy(noise). I don't know why. I didn't see any problem at with with Batman returns, but I have seen the 5th element on other projectors and never seen any graininess.

I also can't get Xbox(not 360) to show in wide screen. I can only get to show in 4:3 then stretch it. annoying.

Hertz

12-18-07, 07:20 PM

That is encouraging....

Master Kenobi :)- have you seen any DLP's in action in addition to the Z5? This is my biggest quandry as I've owned DLP for the last almost four years and loved the picture. I have only seen two older LCD's and was not impressed at all. Granted they may have been poorly calibrated and older technology.

For me it's between this one and the Optoma HD65. Both will give me pretty close to the http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12480204~90" diagonal screen I want from less than 10'.

Hmmmmmmmmm........ :p

Ouch. I think you'll have a hard time getting more than 80" from the HD65 at less than 10'. Throw distance calculators count the distance from the lens. Even if you can mount 10' away, you still must subtract almost 8" for the depth of the projector to hit the back of the wall (if you're pushing it that much. it sounds like you're pressed for space), and on top of that the protrusion of cable connectors (I use 90 degree adapters for my HD70). If you've taken these into account, great, if not, know that realistically you're not getting more than ~81" in a best case scenario, according to the calculators.

damn DLPs. ;)

gottahavapj

12-18-07, 09:10 PM

Ouch. I think you'll have a hard time getting more than 80" from the HD65 at less than 10'. Throw distance calculators count the distance from the lens. Even if you can mount 10' away, you still must subtract almost 8" for the depth of the projector to hit the back of the wall (if you're pushing it that much. it sounds like you're pressed for space), and on top of that the protrusion of cable connectors (I use 90 degree adapters for my HD70). If you've taken these into account, great, if not, know that realistically you're not getting more than ~81" in a best case scenario, according to the calculators.

damn DLPs. ;)
I appreciate the feedback. I did take the lens to screen measurements into account. My current throw distance is exactly 10' from lens to screen. The HD65 is an inch "shallower" than my current Optoma and I have ~6.5" from the back of the current pj to the support beam, which is my restriction. If I used 90 degree adapters I could pick up a good 3-4 inches of throw. My new screen (AT DIY) would also be an inch or two closer to the lens when making room for the speakers behind it. I should still be able to get about exactly 10' of throw, which according to the calculators would give me a max 88.8" diagonal of screen. I wouldn't build a screen based on that absolute max diagonal, it would be better to do like 86" and save a couple of inches for "slop".

I agree with you on the DLP thing... I'd dearly love to find a good deal on a Sharp DT-500, DT-510 (although there are no distance calculators out for the 510 :rolleyes:), or Marantz VP4001 (bowing issues?). These will all throw a well over 90" diagonal image from ~9'6". Problems everywhere... but such nice toys for a little over a Grover Cleveland.. :)

Hertz

12-18-07, 10:49 PM

I appreciate the feedback. I did take the lens to screen measurements into account. My current throw distance is exactly 10' from lens to screen. The HD65 is an inch "shallower" than my current Optoma and I have ~6.5" from the back of the current pj to the support beam, which is my restriction. If I used 90 degree adapters I could pick up a good 3-4 inches of throw. My new screen (AT DIY) would also be an inch or two closer to the lens when making room for the speakers behind it. I should still be able to get about exactly 10' of throw, which according to the calculators would give me a max 88.8" diagonal of screen. I wouldn't build a screen based on that absolute max diagonal, it would be better to do like 86" and save a couple of inches for "slop".

I agree with you on the DLP thing... I'd dearly love to find a good deal on a Sharp DT-500, DT-510 (although there are no distance calculators out for the 510 :rolleyes:), or Marantz VP4001 (bowing issues?). These will all throw a well over 90" diagonal image from ~9'6". Problems everywhere... but such nice toys for a little over a Grover Cleveland.. :)

OK great :) I guess that qualifies as a light cannon at 41 foot lamberts...! I picked up a 90 degree HDMI "port saver" from monoprice for almost nothing, works great so far and is really quite low profile. Monoprice didn't have any for RCA/Component, so I got my 90 degree adapters on ebay for an exceedingly reasonable cost. Also quite low profile, and so useful! From the flush backing of the PJ (remember the ports themselves stick out with nothing attached), these adapters stick out no more than 1 inch, and you don't have to worry about stress on the cables or the ports themselves. Whether having an intermediate connection is going to be a problem, especially with longer runs of HDMI, remains to be seen.

For a long time I wished I had picked up one of those Hitachi TX100s for $699, mainly because from 10' (which is incidentally my throw distance as well), it would throw a 108" image. That's 20" larger than the HD70 throws for me. Wow...I'm a size junkie. At least I have zero SDE with the HD70, and the greater brightness is a plus, though you'll have no problems with brightness with the HD65. Cheers!

mjn

12-19-07, 11:13 AM

Are we still talking about the epson? I hooked back up the SonyHs10 last night and alot of the noise I saw on HD-DVD I also saw on the HS10, so its either related to the HD-DVD or my long run DVI cable(with the hdmi adapters). I thinks its just the look of the HD-DVD because other HD-DVDs looked great.

gottahavapj

12-19-07, 01:10 PM

Yep- we're still talking about the Epson. Sorry for the little off topic DLP discussion there. :)

Thanks for your feedback mjn. You are tossing some good info out there. The feedback of chansen and bk- those coming from DLP's is especially helpful for me.

It is still between this unit and an Optoma HD65 for me. If the Epson wasn't so darn big it would be a no-brainer. This big honker will require me to replace my mount and lose about 6" of throw distance to the Optoma.

I see that Visual Apex extended the rebates until 12/31. They were slated to end 12/17. That be a good thing, good thing, good thing.

Cheers!

Hertz

12-19-07, 02:21 PM

Are we still talking about the epson? I hooked back up the SonyHs10 last night and alot of the noise I saw on HD-DVD I also saw on the HS10

hahaha!

Hertz

12-19-07, 02:28 PM

The Epson's shorter throw and longer zoom range nullifies losing that 6 inches of throw, you'll still have a larger image than the HD65.

Replacing the mount, though....not so great.

gottahavapj

12-19-07, 03:02 PM

From Projector Central- 12/18 news- They have both a 720 and a 1080 UB and they're gonna sit on 'em until after the holidays!!! Big old holiday break movie watchin', hog the good stuff everyone wants to know about- creeps! Just kidding of course.

At least some reviewers are starting to get them..

“The Epson Cinema 720 and 1080 UB units have finally arrived. However, Christmas and New Year's vacations are going to slow the review process. Neither one will be posted prior to Christmas. We may be able to get one of them done next week prior to New Year's, but no promises. My objective is to get them both completed by January 5, which is the week prior to the big CES show in Las Vegas.”

RAFABAMAD

12-19-07, 03:11 PM

Just a quick note of my observations as an owner of this pj and to address some statements posted above.

The Epson HC720 does NOT create or add "noise" to any image. Any "noise" or "grain" (which by the way isn't noise) is inherent in the SOURCE.

It DOES produce a very SHARP image and screendoor is evident if viewing at 1x screen width.

The auto iris does a fantastic job with the black levels and detail.

This projector produces an excellent image and I would absolutely recommend others to take a look at it.

Brian Owens

12-19-07, 03:25 PM

I just installed an Epson 720 last night. HDMI cable to a $99 Sony DVD player set for 720p output. $1400 for the entire setup and I am very impressed. Factory "Theater 1" setting has awesome color, brightness, and contrast.

Someone asked about Visual Apex. . .I ordered mine from Visual Apex. Third projector I have bought from them in the past 6 months (installs for customers). I always talk to Lataye Carr there and she is very helpful. Knows the products too. . . .If you order from there, ask to speak to her. :) Got the ceiling mount and 2 year warranty that includes the bulb for $1249. I noticed you can get the 1080 version for $2099 after a $300 rebate, and you get a free extra bulb. That sounds like a great deal. . .

Now I want a new projector. . . My old NEC LT260k does not look as good as it did 3 years ago compared to the projectors out there today :(

Brian

mjn

12-19-07, 04:32 PM

Been watching this thing for the last two days and i really like the overall image it creates. A very good overall image. I like it better than the AW15 overall. While the AW15 did a few things better, the HC720 seems to do a long list of things better. Although I am clueless on where to start with the calibration. I am glad all the option are there but I am a bit overwhelmed and with theater black 1 looking so good all I have really done is turn the auto iris on. The brighter mode natural livens up the picture for Nature shows and sports but it also livens up the fan noise is really not necessary as even in theater black 1 everything still jumps out at you.

RAFABAMAD, I am afraid my HD-a2 may not be as good at upconverting to my HC720 as my old Bravo D1 was with an exact pixel match was to my HS10 because there is a bit of grain to the image with the superbit 5th element disc on the 720.

Whats the difference between grain and noise. I do believe I agree with you because I went through the Transformers HD-DVD and some scenes were as sharp as could be and some had a grain to them, so I assume this was added on purpose for effect during the DVD mix. I got the HD-DVD player just recently, so all this detail is new to me. My HS10 is sharp but the blue polarizers have been fried for a while.

Also something has been bothering me. My xbox(non 360) with the HD kit is set to wide screen. The HS10 showed it wide screen fine. But the HC720 only wants to show it 4:3. the only option I have is to then stretch the image, distorting the games, I hate that. I went in and double checked and the xbox is still set to widescreen. The HC720 is reading the signal as 525p. I would really like to get the HC720 to show that in widescreen without any stretching.

HDholic

12-19-07, 06:40 PM

Steerforth

12-19-07, 08:00 PM

I went and saw a demo of the 810 today, which is supposed to be very similar to the 720. The store was a "high-end" home theatre dealer, selling mostly expensive Sony 1080p models (those things are huge), but they also carry a lot of Epson stuff. I asked the sales guy why he didn't have a 720 in yet, and he said that their Epson rep had told him to "wait a while, as there might be a few bugs." That could just be a cautious approach, I don't know. Regardless, he also told me that they had sold one customer another Epson model (can't remember which one) that kept blowing bulbs on him. Epson gave him two refurbs, then upgraded him, free, to a model that cost $1,500 more. That's the kind of customer service I'm looking for, and pretty much confirms all the good things I've heard about Epson.

Anyway, if the 720 is anything like the 810, I'm getting one. I had to stand very close to the screen to see the miniscule SDE to any significant degree, it's very bright, and the sharpness was quite good. This had been ISF calibrated, and the colours were perfect, so I can't say how the out of box settings are, but sales guy mentioned that a novice with a calibration disc could easily get a very satisfactory picture.

Sorry I couldn't give you a 720 report, but that's the next best thing, I guess.

tjriha75

12-19-07, 11:06 PM

Bought mine from visual apex, they threw in the mount and extended warranty, plus free shipping and no sales tax saved me a ton over buying local. I had an Infocus SP4805, and there is no comparison. Simply amazing color and wonderful picture on both HDTV and DVD. Bright enought to still show a good picture with the lights on in the room.

Just curious to others that have had a chance to play with auto iris... .what is your preference.. local dealer tells me to turn it off.

mjn

12-20-07, 02:24 AM

I can't tell the difference, with it on or off. But I have been flipping around so much watching parts of movies, shows and video games, I haven't really sat down for a long period and watched it work.

The projectors picture is really growing on me. I got a chance to see a few familiar HD shows today they looked fantastic.

Chad T

12-20-07, 11:46 PM

Projectorreviews.com is close. From Art's blog:

"The Epson Home Cinema 720 is the second projector inbound this week, and will also post before year end."

mjn

12-23-07, 03:34 AM

Some screen shots. 12 year old Digital camera and no tripod. So the PJ is even sharper than the pics show. And of course the colors are a bit off due to the camera as well.

92" Diag Screen(for now) I plan on going to either a 106" or 110" diag

All Shots taken with some ambient light in room. 60watt bulb obscured behind a couch and a door cracked with light leaking in. You could read a magazine in the room but not easily.

All shots taken in Theater Black 1 mode except last Xbox picture is in Living room mode.

Transformers HD-DVD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/hddvd.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/hddvd2.jpg

Comcast HD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/comcasthd2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/comcasthd1.jpg

Standard DVD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/standarddvd.jpg

XBox(non 360)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/xbox1-component.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/mjayn/xbox2-componant-livingroom.jpg

I have yet to do any tweaking to this PJ and I am totally in love with it. I would be blown away if Art gives it anything but a stellar review. I had a friend come in from out of town who has an AX100 and he said it blows his PJ away. And he wasn't all to happy about it :) Anyway. I can't get over how they picture continues to grow on me. The sharpness is not an issue. really the only thing I can find wrong with the pj is that when playing games the lighter modes have some pretty high fan noise, but who cares when you are playing games. its not dead quiet in theater black mode either but pretty quiet. The colors and Blacks are the best I have seen, I can't wait until a tweak thread gets rolling and I can start getting this thing calibrated, I won't lie to you, I am too intimidated to to do it myself without some help from a good tweak thread. It would take an army to get this thing away from me right now.

tjriha75

12-24-07, 12:06 AM

I would agree. I actually bought the $40 home theatre calibration dvd from visual apex, but i am reluctant to mess with any of the factory settings on the epson because it looks so darn good.

Heavywait

12-24-07, 07:17 AM

Tjriha can you postup your screen dimensions?

fillydee

12-26-07, 10:35 AM

tjriha75

12-27-07, 06:07 PM

I have a 102 inch 4:3 Glass beaded Da Lite. (I haven't bought a wide screen screen to save money) I think in widescreen that results in a 90 inch diagonal picture if I do my math right. The projector is about 16 feet back from the screen and you sit about the same distance.

rmccormack

12-28-07, 12:54 AM

anyone else get this? post some screen shots!

Heavywait

12-28-07, 07:43 AM

A friend just got one yesterday from Visual Apex they recommened talking to Mari Michaels.Looks good out of the box, very bright maybe not as bright as ax100 but bright enough. They are projecting on 18foot wide screen. Using hddvd as source with Eastern Promises,pic was vibrant, rich and looked very accurate.For that size screen it was very impressive.

Not quite as smooth as Panny but not a problem,very sharp ,detailed images. no flickers or other distractions. I will check it out over the weekend give a full impression. But today it looks pretty darn good.

Ofer80

12-28-07, 08:14 AM

I'm not sure that all that you say is correct... But the reason is understandable.

Steerforth

12-28-07, 01:06 PM

Another reason to get this projector, $100 mail in rebate and a free replacement bulb. Check all the usual online suppliers. I just wish my room was ready for it, then I'd jump. I guess the pot will just get sweeter over time (or cheaper:))

Only in the U.S., sadly. NOT valid in Canada. Once again, Canadians get screwed. You guys in the States with your low prices, unlimited selection, and awesome rebates, be thankful for the choices you have.

Yes, I'm bitter. :(

skablaw

12-28-07, 04:56 PM

Well I just unwrapped my shiny new HC720. The theater room isn't finished so there isn't much I can do in there, but I set it on the dining room table and aimed it at an empty off-white wall. It looks... *drum roll*... just awful. Of course that may be from the row of 7' high windows all along the opposing wall. I can't find anything big enough to cover them so I must wait for the cover of night... Current sunset time is listed for 5:26 P.M. One and a half hours to go.

inukshuk

12-28-07, 06:34 PM

Only in the U.S., sadly. NOT valid in Canada. Once again, Canadians get screwed. You guys in the States with your low prices, unlimited selection, and awesome rebates, be thankful for the choices you have.

Yes, I'm bitter. i am in canada as well and the guy i spoke to at visual apex was very helpful, he assured me that epson offered a _north american_ warranty

are you certain that the extras wouldn't be good in canada ?

the bulb would still come certainly

epson canada offers a 2 year warranty on this pj standard if you by from them

i understand that epson support is some of the best in the business which is why i leaning toward the 720 vs the panny 200

Steerforth

12-28-07, 07:04 PM

i am in canada as well and the guy i spoke to at visual apex was very helpful, he assured me that epson offered a _north american_ warranty

are you certain that the extras wouldn't be good in canada ?

the bulb would still come certainly

epson canada offers a 2 year warranty on this pj standard if you by from them

i understand that epson support is some of the best in the business which is why i leaning toward the 720 vs the panny 200

The warranty is North American, so where it's purchased is not an issue. The rebate is, however. I spoke to Epson Canada and Epson America today, and, after an hour on the phone, they both confirmed that Epson Canada will not honour the $100 rebate + bulb. The only Canadian "rebate" offered is $50 back if you buy a "Duet" screen with the projector. Whatever that is.

By the way, not to take any bread out of the mouth of a forum sponsor, but, one reason this projector appeals to me is that it's one of the few models (the BenQ W500 is another) that will actually cost me less money to buy IN Canada, despite the lack of a rebate. I would warn any Canadians to factor in duty, brokerage fees, shipping, etc. before buying it online from the States. The Panny 200U I would buy from the States, but not the 720. It's actually reasonably priced up here, and you don't have to deal with the expense and hassle of getting it through customs.

inukshuk

12-29-07, 12:52 PM

The warranty is North American, so where it's purchased is not an issue. The rebate is, however. I spoke to Epson Canada and Epson America today, and, after an hour on the phone, they both confirmed that Epson Canada will not honour the $100 rebate + bulb. The only Canadian "rebate" offered is $50 back if you buy a "Duet" screen with the projector. Whatever that is.

By the way, not to take any bread out of the mouth of a forum sponsor, but, one reason this projector appeals to me is that it's one of the few models (the BenQ W500 is another) that will actually cost me less money to buy IN Canada, despite the lack of a rebate. I would warn any Canadians to factor in duty, brokerage fees, shipping, etc. before buying it online from the States. The Panny 200U I would buy from the States, but not the 720. It's actually reasonably priced up here, and you don't have to deal with the expense and hassle of getting it through customs. great points, i agree, projectors in canada are expensive and the epson is a rare exception,

however, i am close to the border and have a us po box so i can always get it shipped there, get the warranty and bulb and still do service in canada if i need ... as to the other issues, there should not be any duty on a projector .... also, you can have it shipped "self clear customs" and do the paperwork yourself and avoid the brokerage fee .... there are always ways around these issues which are easier if you live near the border

i have been looking at the panny 200 but am waiting for the projectorcentral review, if it comes up good i will go for the epson and maybe just get it in canada and forgoe the bulb and rebate just to avoid the hassle

Steerforth

12-29-07, 01:22 PM

great points, i agree, projectors in canada are expensive and the epson is a rare exception,

however, i am close to the border and have a us po box so i can always get it shipped there, get the warranty and bulb and still do service in canada if i need ... as to the other issues, there should not be any duty on a projector .... also, you can have it shipped "self clear customs" and do the paperwork yourself and avoid the brokerage fee .... there are always ways around these issues which are easier if you live near the border

i have been looking at the panny 200 but am waiting for the projectorcentral review, if it comes up good i will go for the epson and maybe just get it in canada and forgoe the bulb and rebate just to avoid the hassle

Most manufacturers will not accept PO Boxes for rebate claims. Also, there is duty on ANY electronic item entering Canada, if the country of manufacture is outside North America. Just being packaged and sold out of the States does not make a projector duty free. It has to be physically produced there.

More power to you if you can get away with it, but I don't know. I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I'd just buy the 720 in Canada.

Please let me know if you're successful, and what the final costs were.

inukshuk

12-29-07, 03:30 PM

Most manufacturers will not accept PO Boxes for rebate claims. Also, there is duty on ANY electronic item entering Canada, if the country of manufacture is outside North America. Just being packaged and sold out of the States does not make a projector duty free. It has to be physically produced there.

More power to you if you can get away with it, but I don't know. I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I'd just buy the 720 in Canada.

Please let me know if you're successful, and what the final costs were. if i buy the epson i will almost certainly buy it in canada, i still get a 2 year warranty which is terrific, unless i get unlucky and the bulb just goes (which does happen) by the time i need a new bulb i will be buying a new projo so that's not a huge issue, the rebate is more than offset by the extra shipping costs etc .... so we are in agreement that buying from epson.ca is the way to go

as far as your other comments, the po box i have uses a street address since it is a private po box that can accept ups/fedex etc so the rebate issue is not a problem .... the duty issue is not at all correct, projectors can be brought into canada duty free ..... as someone who has brought in a ton of stuff from the states, trust me, the customs guys are generally clueless, they will often just follow your lead if you tell them where to look ... i had them look up projectors a couple of years ago

in any event, as you say, with the epson, canadians are finally catching a break ... let's hope projectorcentral gives it a glowing review !!!

skablaw

12-29-07, 03:39 PM

I'm too busy enjoying my projector to post much right now. I just wanted to say that I love it and I'm very pleased with my decision.

The only improvement I could possibly want is 1080p because I tend to fixate on things and the flaw of the day is pixel visibility. It isn't bad by any means for a 720p projector, but compared to the VPL-VW60 I was watching during some demo sessions, the difference is very obvious. Not a single person who has been here to see it has commented on this issue so I tend to believe that it is really only apparent to those who have actually viewed considerably better projectors. For "entry" to "mid" level, this is about as good as I can imagine it getting.

I think it would be pretty foolish to spend more on a 720p projector than this. Of course there aren't too many out there that cost more than this, but for those few it seems a pointless expenditure when performance like this can be had at about $1,200. The free replacement lamp rebate also liberates me to use my projector as I please. I have no qualms about using the brighter picture modes and I won't shy from multi-hour gaming sessions. The freedom to actually enjoy my purchase is very satisfying. If I had stretched my budget another $1,000, I would have no excuse to upgrade in a few years and I'm very much looking forward to seeing what projectors are on the market in 2010.

Have no fear about buying sight-unseen if you're on the fence. Go to a local Best Buy and watch Sony's VPL-AW15. Imagine it having better flexibility in terms of picture modes and that's about where you'll be. I don't think I'd say that either one looked "better" than the other, and, even though it isn't as crucial as the marketing would have you believe, native 24 frame/sec output would be nice, so that's pretty much where your choice lies. If you want or need a few more picture modes for gaming and television viewing, the Epson is probably the way to go (though I should say that the Sony's Cinema Black mode is an excellent movie mode and requires no apologies for its performance, including in brightness). If pure movie watching, especially of material that can be output in 1080p/24, is your bag, then the Sony is going to be a joy for you. Ultimately, though, I'd consider these a coin-toss in most objective measurements. The Epson just ultimately appealed to me a tad more (especially with the current incentives), so that's what I settled on, but I easily could've walked out of the store with a VPL-AW15.

Steerforth

12-29-07, 06:45 PM

if i buy the epson i will almost certainly buy it in canada, i still get a 2 year warranty which is terrific, unless i get unlucky and the bulb just goes (which does happen) by the time i need a new bulb i will be buying a new projo so that's not a huge issue, the rebate is more than offset by the extra shipping costs etc .... so we are in agreement that buying from epson.ca is the way to go

Actually, there's no cost savings when buying from Epson directly. If you have a local authorized Epson dealer, just walk into the store and have them order it for you. You'll get the same price, and I've found it's better to be able to go back to the store and talk to someone if something goes wrong, rather than have to pick up the phone. Alternatively, you can save about $2.50 and buy it from a Canadian online retailer that has a very good reputation. It's pretty much the same price, wherever you look in Canada. Epson.ca is fine, too.

the duty issue is not at all correct, projectors can be brought into canada duty free ..... as someone who has brought in a ton of stuff from the states, trust me, the customs guys are generally clueless, they will often just follow your lead if you tell them where to look ... i had them look up projectors a couple of years ago

Can be? No doubt, they have been. Should be? No. If you're saying that you know how to fool customs officials, that's one thing. Regardless, electronic devices not manufactured in North America are not protected by NAFTA, and should be charged duty. That's the law. Is it inefficiently and inconsistently applied? Sure. It's still the law.

in any event, as you say, with the epson, canadians are finally catching a break ... let's hope projectorcentral gives it a glowing review !!!

And projectorreviews! They have pictures. :)

inukshuk

12-29-07, 08:14 PM

Actually, there's no cost savings when buying from Epson directly. If you have a local authorized Epson dealer, just walk into the store and have them order it for you. You'll get the same price, and I've found it's better to be able to go back to the store and talk to someone if something goes wrong, rather than have to pick up the phone. Alternatively, you can save about $2.50 and buy it from a Canadian online retailer that has a very good reputation. It's pretty much the same price, wherever you look in Canada. Epson.ca is fine, too. wish there was one here in victoria, i would happily buy from them

i will say that one advantage of dealing with epson is returns, small dealers hate returns because it ends up costing them money, if not directly then by way of paperwork, lost opportunity etc whereas a large company like epson will be less concerned if you want to return an item, reviews notwithstanding, you never know until you have a hands on experience

one last shot on the duty issue (based on bringing in at least a dozen seperate items from the us over the last 5 years, mostly by hand carrying across the border on the ferry) , if you download the canada 2008 customs tariff, i challenge you to figure how to classify 1000's of items, depending on how you you classify it, projector duty can range from free to 3-6-7 %

if you are dealing with a customs guy standing in a shack in the victoria, they just are not experts in knowing the difference between one kind of projector or another, so it often comes down to their mood and how long they are willing to page through a complex, arcane book vs. when their next coffee break is ....

the guys i have dealt with will often get the book and try to get as close to the item as possible and then just "call it" depending on their mood, _your_ mood often has a lot to do with the process

i certainly am not fooling the customs officials ..... i am saying that they simply are not trained to properly interpret and classify all of the goods they see based on the 2008 tariff manual, which, if you have ever read is a very arcane document, not at all cut and dried, and very much open to interpretation

i will end on a note of agreement with your comment about the law: " Is it inefficiently and inconsistently applied? Sure. It's still the law. yes, i agree .... it is consistently inefficiently and inconsistently applied :)

jakejj

12-30-07, 02:06 PM

Has anyone started an Epson HC720 Tweak Thread? If yes, can someone forward me a link to the thread? If no, is there anyone out there who has spent some time tweaking the Epson HC720 and would like to share his/her picture settings with the forum? Thanks!

tjriha75

12-30-07, 07:17 PM

I would tend to disagree on a couple of points. The epson is MUCH brighter than the Sony. Also get a better warranty with the extension from visual apex and I think Epson has a reputation for their quality service.

skablaw

12-31-07, 10:36 AM

I would tend to disagree on a couple of points. The epson is MUCH brighter than the Sony.

And I would tend to temper that assertion by saying that the Epson is capable of being much brighter. In their respective best color-accuracy modes, brightness is about equal. The Sony has a slight edge in ultimate black level, which means that even in Theater Black 1 on the Epson, you must dial down the brightness to achieve the same results, which essentially levels the playing field for movie viewing.

I can certainly attest to the brilliance of the Epson's other modes. Living Room is particularly good because is sacrifices little in terms of acceptable color reproduction and perceived black level for a great boost in brightness. Dynamic mode is a mess, though, and I can't imagine actually watching it out-of-the-box, but I'll try to recalibrate and see what I come up with.

Brightness is only a concern if you actually need it. I can see myself using Living Room for video games, but that's the greatest compromise I'd be willing to make in terms of image quality.

I don't own the Sony. I went with the Epson for a number of reasons, but brightness wasn't one of them. Some of the reviews out there are being done by people with 120" or larger screens. The Sony can't effectively cope with screen sizes this large, but, frankly, and I don't mean to step on any toes here, if you're putting together a theater of that scale, you should budget for more than an entry-level projector anyhow.

Steerforth

01-01-08, 07:43 AM

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2007/12/31/projectors-epson-home-cinema-720-a-first-look/

Art's "first look", prior to the actual review, which he says should be up by Friday.

Sounds like mixed results so far.

dvdvideo

01-01-08, 03:19 PM

Not mixed, just rather colored buy much more expensive projectors.

Sounded largely positive to me.

rmccormack

01-01-08, 03:58 PM

yeah it basically says the RS2 is better but for the cost it better be, sounds like this one is solid though

Steerforth

01-01-08, 04:55 PM

Yes, I realize he apologized over and over for watching it right after the RS2 review, but he also says this, independent of that:

Black level performance for the Epson seemed pretty average for 720p projectors

I was hoping for a bit more than that, from the preliminary reports we've received here thus far.

Anyway, I'm glad the review will be out soon.

greenos

01-01-08, 11:00 PM

He also states "haven’t spent much time on the Theater Black modes yet" thats where you will get the black level performance....

skablaw

01-04-08, 10:42 AM

For those who already own the Epson Home Cinema 720, have you attempted a calibration? If so, what results have your adjustments yielded?

I spent some time last night fooling with the RGB (grayscale) and RGBCMY (hue and saturation) controls, and, though I actually am quite pleased with the picture, I can't say that the grayscale calibration was terribly scientific. I wish I had the appropriate tools because it seems like too much of a guessing game to eyeball it and I end up feeling like the outcome is a disappointing compromise.

Without looking at the menu, I can't tell you what my settings are off the top of my head (I'll post those soon, though, for anyone wishing to use them as a starting point), but I can tell you that initially, red was extremely prevalent in all of the IRE fields from 10 through 100. On the plain gray image, excess red is much easier to detect than green or blue so I hope I didn't overcompensate, but I pulled the red way way down. Green then became the issue, with so little red it came through quite visibly. So I pulled green down as much as I could and bumped red back a little to compensate. Blue is very hard to detect so I could be a little high on that since I didn't fiddle much with it. Basically, pulled green and red way down, both offset and gain.

For color, I found again that I needed to dial red way down. Yellow needed tweaking, as did magenta. Blue and cyan weren't terrible. Using the green color bars with flashing hue and saturation swatches, I hardly touched the settings. Through the filter, I couldn't see any real trouble with green, but when I flipped on some demo material, it seemed like flesh tones were a little sickly. This phenomenon seemed to be highly dependent upon the scene, however, which may indicate that it is actually part of the image. In the HD-DVD of "The Last Samurai", interior shots with warm lighting revealed some of that greenish tint in skin tones. When the action moved outside at night, though, skin appeared very natural. A pale peach, with none of the unpleasantly over-saturated reds, and lacking the green intrusion I'd previously noted.

A standard brightness/contrast adjustment with needle steps and pulses really improved the linearity of shadows. Previously, I'd felt that some detail became lost as lighting diminished in a scene, with black arriving far too soon. Also, in Theater Black 1, white isn't exactly Chlorox bright, so bumping up that white level restored some brilliance.

Well, that's what I've found so far. I have to say that the grayscale calibration really demonstrated the convergence issues inherent in these 3LCD projectors. On every IRE field, red always was accentuated heavily in the upper-left corner, and green was equally so in the lower-right. The anomaly doesn't reveal itself in regular viewing and it is nearly invisible at 100 IRE and too dim to notice at 10 IRE, so it likely won't be an issue because extreme white and black are really the only steps in the grayscale that are ever displayed full-screen in any material I've ever watched.

I'll be very interested to hear what others have concluded!

mjn

01-04-08, 11:35 AM

Black level performance for the Epson seemed pretty average for 720p projectors

THis was from watching mostly Dynamic mode. I can't watch that mode for more than a few minutes without turning it off,the colors and blacks are so off. Its is a brightness at all costs mode. Hopefully with some more time to check out the other modes his tune will change.

As far as calibration, I haven't messed with the projector yet. I just hit 120 hours, so I am ready to calibrate, but I am looking for a starting point, maybe read a little back and forth of a tweak thread before getting started, it has more features than I am used to.

Audixium

01-04-08, 02:36 PM

Some of the reviews out there are being done by people with 120" or larger screens. The Sony can't effectively cope with screen sizes this large, but, frankly, and I don't mean to step on any toes here, if you're putting together a theater of that scale, you should budget for more than an entry-level projector anyhow.

You missed my toes...:) However, assuming Art's full review puts the HC720 on par with the Panny AX200, I'm going to pick up this Epson and project a 120" image in my living room. My dedicated HT room (planning phase right now) will get a "big boy" PJ. Food for thought...

mizzoutigers

01-04-08, 04:19 PM

This was just posted at PC by Evan Powell:

I will give you some brief thoughts on the Epson products here, and save the details for the final reviews. First, Epson has clearly taken their home theater projectors to a new level. Not only are the Pro Cinema 1080 UB and Home Cinema 720 projectors large steps ahead of their previous models, but they are without a doubt the most competitive home theater projectors we've ever seen from Epson. With these models, Epson enters the top ranks in overall home theater industry price/performance - in our opinion for the first time.

The Cinema Pro 1080 UB has excellent black level, contrast, and color saturation for the money. It is appropriately priced above the Panasonic AE2000, for its image quality in terms of these key parameters is a clear notch above the AE2000 as well. Conversely, the 1080 UB is priced well under the JVC RS2, and this is also as it should be. The RS2 is the superior projector in terms of black levels, contrast, and saturation. For the premium dollar you spend on the RS2, you get visibly better performance. So as we've seen before, you can safely discard the official contrast ratings (50,000:1 on the 1080 UB vs. 30,000:1 on the RS2) as reliable guides to relative contrast performance.

We have not yet had the opportunity to do side by side testing between the Epson 1080 UB and the JVC RS1. This will be an important section in the review since these two models are more closely matched in price and performance. The fact is, you can get either one of them and end up with a magnificent home theater set up.

As far as the Epson Cinema 720 is concerned, this is a beautiful 720p resolution product that represents a significant improvement over the Cinema 400 in contrast, saturation, and color accuracy. Bill will have more to say about this in the review, but the Cinema 720 is highly competitive at its current street price level. Epson fans can order this one today without any fear of not getting top performance for the dollar spent.

skablaw

01-04-08, 05:14 PM

You missed my toes...:) However, assuming Art's full review puts the HC720 on par with the Panny AX200, I'm going to pick up this Epson and project a 120" image in my living room. My dedicated HT room (planning phase right now) will get a "big boy" PJ. Food for thought...

I was probably a bit dismissive in my earlier statement. Given the state of the industry, it probably isn't unrealistic to expect a passable, if not excellent 120" image at this price point. I actually think that the Epson Home Cinema 720 is exactly the projector to accomplish this! Save yourself the Panasonic headaches (and cash in on a $100 rebate plus a free replacement lamp) by going with Epson and I think you'll be quite happy. I've had mine project more than 110" and was very satisfied with the outcome, even in "best" mode.

At any rate, my point was more as a counter to some of the "professional" commentary on Sony's VPL-AW15, which is really an outstanding projector. I'm not sure why it gets bad press because owners are widely satisfied, and I was almost wooed on color accuracy alone. It puts out a very pleasing image. Just not one that's going to burn a hole in your wall.

Audixium

01-04-08, 05:50 PM

I think near this $1k price point (give or take), a lot more people like me are willing to give a PJ a shot in a living room situation, which completely changes the game for manufacturers. Sure I could go get a 60" LCD to replace my old 46" Sony HD RP CRT. But at my 13 foot viewing distance the 60" will still seem puny compared to a 100" plus PJ image at an 18 foot viewing distance.

So for some living room users, I think the PJ has the ability to supplant that new LCD or Plasma purchase. Because the HC720 and Panny AX200 are light cannons (relative to past budget projectors), I think more and more people will start to seriously consider them over a smaller direct view display replacement.

Heck, I'm going to keep the 46" HDTV in the living room for most normal viewing. Then for our favorite HD shows, sports or movies I'll fire up the Epson. And specifically for sports, I've configured my room so that I can have one game on the 46" TV and the "main event" on the PJ + surround.

Save yourself the Panasonic headaches (and cash in on a $100 rebate plus a free replacement lamp) by going with Epson and I think you'll be quite happy.

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...;)

mjn

01-04-08, 06:01 PM

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...;)

As three months slowly slide by.

skablaw

01-04-08, 07:43 PM

Ok - but let me just see Art's review first...;)

Will do, but do be sure to read the thread about PT-AX200U issues first as well. :D

sota2000

01-04-08, 08:19 PM

Is this a good projector for Playing Games such as PS3?

Has anyone hooked up their game system yet?

Thanks in advance.

mjn

01-04-08, 11:21 PM

Xbox is incredible in living room mode.

rmccormack

01-04-08, 11:54 PM

yeah wheres the review....its almost Saturday!

mjn

01-05-08, 02:17 AM

You mean he is not gonna make the Thanksgiving deadline?

Heavywait

01-05-08, 06:55 AM

Clearly, he doesnt work for Perry White.

Chad T

01-05-08, 12:35 PM

You mean he is not gonna make the Thanksgiving deadline?

Maybe he meant Thanksgiving 2008?

pottscb

01-05-08, 03:22 PM

Art's a little slow but when he finally gets it posted its always good...I'll take quality over quantity anyday (but I'd rather have both)...also, he's been posting to a blog for us impatient fanatics.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/

Heavywait

01-05-08, 08:47 PM

I had the chance to spend some time watching the playoffs on my friends pj today.I was very impressed,very rich color very natural looking and nice brightness.I look forward to review by Art but imho The Epson 720 is a knockout.

Steerforth

01-05-08, 09:20 PM

It's up.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/powerlite-home_cinema_720/index.php

He's still not keen on the black levels, but says it makes up for it with shadow detail.

Overall pretty positive, but he gives the edge to the Panny for "film-like" quality.

The Panasonic has the advantage in overall brightness, but the Epson is second in the field, particularly when comparing the brightest modes. I'd definitely favor the Epson for sports viewing, with its richer colors, and crisper image. The Panasonic, and the Epson are pretty close for movie viewing, but I'd probably give the Panasonic the edge in its Cinema 1 mode (which is more film-like), although if you want extra lumens, the Panasonic Vivid Cinema mode is brighter than Epson's Theatre or Theater Black 1 mode, but also gives up the Panasonic's Cinema 1 film-like advantage.

If it's "close", I guess that's good enough for me to go for the Epson, considering my limited options in Canada. For the price, it sounds like a pretty good deal.

Chad T

01-05-08, 09:58 PM

Finally! I was half kidding with the Thanksgiving comment. Art does do a *great* job and I understand that takes time. I think he just needs to work on his review completion projections. In business, "if you tell them 3 days and it takes 2 you have a very happy customer. If you tell them 1 day and it takes 2, you have an unhappy customer. Same time frame, just different expectations."

Anyway, I'm gonna think it over for a few days, but I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a 720. If I go with a gray screen I think black levels will be okay. I mostly watch movies and wish he would have given higher marks in that regard, but you can't have everything. Considering the whole, I still think the 720 seems like a great option. Especially if I can get the price knocked down a little. That combined with the free lamp and $100 rebate should be an excellent deal.

rmccormack

01-05-08, 11:13 PM

yeah i dont think 1080p is worth the money, considering this is almost a third the price, its better to buy this and then just buy something better in 2 years

skablaw

01-06-08, 01:51 AM

I'm fighting the urge to be defensive, but I think the review was pretty objective. I would say that Art gives a fairly accurate breakdown of the pros and cons of this unit.

What I do take issue with is that I don't feel the Epson's competition has been as dispassionately considered. Art really oohed and ahhed over the Mitsubishi HC1500, and though I would wholeheartedly agree that it is a great looking budget projector, it does not have superior black levels, or a superior overall image to the Epson. I have A/Bed Sony's VPL-AW15 and the HC1500 after careful adjustment and the Sony is definitely better. I have subsequently A/Bed the VPL-AW15 and the Home Cinema 720, and the 720 is almost as good as the Sony. I realize my reasoning is a bit inductive, but I really would not give the Mitsubishi the edge in overall image quality in comparison to either of those LCD units. The Mitsubishi's advantage over the Optoma puts the HD70 even further behind, though not by much.

I haven't been reviewing projectors for years, but my recent experiences researching my own purchase have limited my scope specifically to sub-$1,500 720p projectors and I have seen almost all of them. If you were to put all of the units fitting my price limit into the ring, I really feel that the Panasonic, Epson, and Sony are 1, 2, and 3. The Panasonic has the best combination of traits, but I shied from it purely on warranty and Panasonic's spotty reputation for reliability, though if it were borne out that this is not a legitimate concern for the PT-AX200U, I would have chosen it over the Epson. The Sony's cinema mode with its iris AI fully engaged yields the best image of any of these projectors, but it doesn't have any other modes going for it and I was relieved at having picked up the Epson today when I was playing Call of Duty 3 with daylight streaming in through the living-room windows. That's something the Sony just can't do, and, for me, it was a deal breaker. It took third place because it's really a one-trick pony.

There are some incredible sale prices going for some truly exceptional DLP projectors, which puts them into my price class. If we take these clearance or incentive price units into consideration then Sharp's DT-510, Mitsubishi's HD3000, and Optoma's HD7100 take top-honors over the LCDs.

The BenQ W500, Mitsubishi HC1500, Optoma HD70 and Acer PH530 aren't different enough in overall image quality to make much of a distinction. Of those I would take the BenQ if I needed the lens shift, otherwise I'd go for the PH530 because they're practically giving it away and it has replacement lamps going for $200, which makes it a fantastic choice if you just want something to tide you over until 1080p becomes more economical.

Well, that's what I think. I'm not a professional so my opinion may not count for spit, but hopefully it will prove helpful. I can't speak to Art's frame of mind going into this review, but, though it was extremely good of him to disclose the context of his viewing by admitting that he has been watching much more expensive projectors lately, I think he still understates the effect this may have had. I A/Bed the VPL-VW60 and VPL-AW15 and there was absolutely no contest, but that's why the two models exist. If the AW15 could compete with the VW60, then Sony wouldn't have both products. They're marketed in completely different ways to completely different customers and the same is true for the Home Cinema 720 and the JVC DLA-RS2. If the JVC didn't blow the Epson out of the water, why the heck would anyone pay $7,000+ for it?

I have to call into question Art's concluding statement that "while [the Epson] makes for a good projector for movies, those seeking perfection will look elsewhere." If you're seeking perfection, then SIM2 will happily relieve you of $32,000 for a C3X 1080. At $1,100, people may be seeking perfection, but I think most of them understand that they aren't likely to find it. If his assertion is that it can be found in another projector at this price point (and yes, I know he is referring to movie-watching), then I'd like very much to hear his recommendation because I must have missed it during my search.

Well I'm off to enjoy my "not as good as most of the competition" black levels and "not quite as film-like" image!

Steerforth

01-06-08, 02:21 AM

Excellent post, skablaw. A lot of useful information there, thanks.

I think I'm sold on the Epson at this point. The Panny is a sexy machine, but the 720's 2-year warranty and Epson's reliability are too important to overlook. I just don't trust Panasonic. Plus, the 200 costs nearly twice in Canada what it does in the States, when our dollar is now above par. So, yeah, screw them.

edit: Except now I want a 1080UB :D
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2008/01/05/epson-home-cinema-1080ub-being-reviewed-first-thoughts/

For those of you setting their clocks by my reviews (which are usually a couple of days late), I’m hoping to publish the full review on Tuesday or Wed, the 15th or 16th.

Heh, I wonder who he's talking about there. :p

mjn

01-06-08, 03:09 AM

I just skimmed the review, its late, and I have been enjoying my projector all night. I will read it thoroughly tomorrow. He has some interesting points. Most of Arts Comparison photos the 720 photos look terrible(just the HC720 ones). So bad that its like they just happened to come out bad, no way the scene of the wet bricks in Aeon Flux looked that bad. Or the re-entry from space cowboys(labeled vpl-vw60) looked that bad on the pj, I just watched some of that movie tonight and it looked great, but you don't have to tell me how hard screen shots are to take. He gives the panny the nod in film like picture, I would expect that with smooth screen, and I prefer the sharper image. I am surprised by his talk of weak blacks. I had them(in my mind) right there, maybe a half notch below, the Sony Aw15. But I watch everything in theater black 1 with Iris on. (except when Playing Xbox). I have noticed the improved shadow detail over the Sony. So basically, the review was everything I thought it would be except I thought he would have some better things to say about the blacks and have hit this PJ with the best in class tag, but I haven't seen the 200U(only the 100U), maybe the blacks are better? But if they are close I will go for the sharper image every time, and I can't wait to calibrate. I know this image can be made even better. Theater black 1 is very nice, but with all those lumens to play with I bet there is a perfect tweaked mode with a little more punch, a little more detail, perfect colors, and some richer blacks. We need to get that tweak thread going.

dan webster

01-06-08, 12:40 PM

From reading Arts review it seems like the 720 is identical in every way to my Epson TW 700.

3mar67

01-07-08, 07:49 AM

Hi, I'm a new owner of this unit. So far I've only watched SD DVD on a Sony upconverting DVD player. Hooked up by HDMI cable. When I set my DVD player to 720p, the projector tells me my resolution is 750p. When I set the DVD player to AUTO or 1080i, the projector says my resolution is 1125i. Anyone else notice this or am I doing something wrong?

BTW I'll post more about the projector after I've spent a few hours watching it.

jrwhite

01-07-08, 10:45 AM

3mar67,

What you're seeing is normal. In North America the 1080 / 720 is the number of lines in the active picture area of the signal. In Asia / Europe they state the active picture lines + the vertical blankiing lines. So 1080+VBI=1125.

Jonathan

Audixium

01-07-08, 11:49 AM

NOTE: the context for the quote below is not included and thus it should not be interpreted that skablaw would actually buy the PH530 over the HC720. Please read his entire post to get the context.

...otherwise I'd go for the PH530 because they're practically giving it away and it has replacement lamps going for $200, which makes it a fantastic choice if you just want something to tide you over until 1080p becomes more economical.

I thought I had convinced myself to go with the HC720 over the AX200. Then you had to go and say that about the Acer! ;) Now I'm thinking the Acer is less than half the price of the HC720, could potentially have decent enough quality for a one year lifespan, and then I would go with a 1080p PJ. This will be my first PJ and I have ambient light issues - tell me I'm going mad...

skablaw

01-07-08, 02:09 PM

I thought I had convinced myself to go with the HC720 over the AX200. Then you had to go and say that about the Acer! ;) Now I'm thinking the Acer is less than half the price of the HC720, could potentially have decent enough quality for a one year lifespan, and then I would go with a 1080p PJ. This will be my first PJ and I have ambient light issues - tell me I'm going mad...

I'm really torn when I think about this scenario. I hate the idea of leading you astray so I want to carefully consider the ultimate financial impact. Obviously, one can't put a "price" on your viewing enjoyment so if the conclusion was "do nothing and wait until 1080p becomes more fiscally attractive," you'd miss out on the big-screen experience for the intervening time. If, on the other hand, you buy the cheapest possible 720p projector now, and buy a reasonably priced 1080p projector later, your "cost per day" would likely meet or exceed the cost of buying 1080p now.

Let's say you pick up a PH530 for $600 (it has been done and will be done again). Then, in one year, the Mitsubishi HC4900 is being sold on clearance for $1,000. If you make your purchase then, you net the same amount out-of-pocket and lose 365 days of 1080p viewing. The one advantage would be that you might need to replace your lamp in a year so your net out-of-pocket cost to continue watching any projector would rise by $300 - $400 if you buy one now and intend to extend its service life beyond one year. That would make your "buy it now" HC4900 scenario just under $2,000, while the PH530 + HC4900 combo would be only $1,600 for 2 years of viewing. That assumes that you exhaust your lamp in 1 year, regardless of model. That's probably short for most people. Even with the inordinate amount of time I'm wasting with my projector, I can't imagine racking up enough hours to kill a lamp in one year.

At any rate, it's all a matter of perspective. I think that I rationally recognize buying 1080p now, even at its higher cost, to be a better "value" proposition than picking up the Home Cinema 720, which I did, and waiting for the higher resolution. That's predicated, however, on the premium that I place on 1080p as it relates to my viewing pleasure, and the realization that I will buy 1080p, and probably a lot sooner than I want to admit. I wanted a projector immediately and in the midst of making my decision, was hit with a $2,000 mechanic's bill for my car. That changed my buying power very quickly. I couldn't even afford to shell out money that would later be recouped in rebates so 1080p was an impossibility even with the bargain units.

I have friends and family that would be blown away by a 480p projector and would keep it for a decade, diligently paying for repairs and replacement lamps until it literally fell apart. But I'm an A/V enthusiast; I'll readily concede that when watching a movie at home, the video and audio quality accounts for probably %30 of my pleasure, while the movie itself makes up the remaining %70. I'll watch bad films just because they make good demo material.

A family friend I recently visited has a brand new THX-certified (whatever that counts for), 720p Runco projector the size of a go-cart in his theater, and let me tell you, it looks great, but I can tell it isn't 1080p and I fixate on it. The only saving grace is that 720p is usually the maximum resolution of any source material he has because he watches mostly standard-definition DVDs and television, with the occasional HD sports broadcast. He has no interest in Blu-Ray or HD-DVD at the moment. His son recommended the unit after attending a consumer electronics show and reporting that he didn't think the 1080p Runco looked any better than the 720p. Well, I happen to think he's wrong, but that's because I've viewed some reference-level systems and my eye recalls the experience of true state-of-the-art.

This is really a cautionary tale. The key to happiness in this hobby is to enjoy the content. Don't forget that the point of all this is to reproduce a movie, and if the reproduction is good enough to immerse you in the action or bring the story to life, that's all you need and the rest is just a bonus. I'm happy to say that the path of the videophile isn't nearly as capricious and arbitrary as that of the audiophile, but is still rife with upgrade-itis, and you'd do well to avoid that whenever possible.

I finally put my mind at rest by making a firm decision to limit the number of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD titles I actually buy. I rent them regularly through NetFlix, but that's mostly because it doesn't cost a dime more to go with high- over standard-definition with their service. I also have a lot of money invested in my upscaling DVD player, the Denon DVD-5910, which cost more than I can admit without blushing, so I won't be adopting any flagship HD players because I've learned my lesson on that front. With my non-HDMI SSP, and using an Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 for high-def playback, lossless audio is of no benefit to me.

So I have a large library of standard-definition DVDs that are beautifully rendered by my Denon, a smattering of games that are all programmed in 720p, and occasionally I rent a high-definition disc because I can freely choose it over its DVD counterpart. When I take these factors into consideration, 1080p becomes fancy anti-aliasing for my video games and little more. Hardly worth $1,000. Now there are other aspects of image quality that improve dramatically at the $4,000 mark, but that's not even remotely realistic for me so why should I buy an entry-level 1080p projector whose main advantage to me at this point is reduced pixel visibility? If I were more heavily invested in source material that could take full advantage of 1080p, it would make more sense, but until set-top boxes and PC-based on-demand hit that resolution, I'm getting a huge percentage of the potential out of my sources.

Well how's that for a stream of consciousness?

Audixium

01-07-08, 02:32 PM

Well how's that for a stream of consciousness?

I always appreciate thoughtful input! Money is also an object in my case...but I also could get a 1080p PJ without it being painful financially. To me it isn't so much about being a videofile, it is about the relative value. And that is what got me about your comment.

I'm still left thinking, is the HC720 twice as good as the Acer PH530 - for MY needs. Now, I'm rarely the one to go with the bottom shelf option just for the sake of price. But if actually seeing the difference between the two is going to take a "videofile" mindset then I might have to reconsider my approach. This is along the same lines of many people saying they really can't see a significant difference between 720p and 1080p given their seating distance.

skablaw

01-07-08, 04:30 PM

Since we're trading posts, I'll keep this one short :D. Sometimes when I'm doing this, I wonder if the people who are replying to me are sitting in their office procrastinating a finance report too!

The Home Cinema 720 is not twice as good as the Acer PH530. Especially when it comes to image quality. If you wouldn't have to do a lot of gymnastics to properly situate it in your room, and you don't see rainbows, then it's an easy answer.

In fact, your comparison to the "I don't see the difference between 720p and 1080p" debate makes my statement above even more pertinent because I think 720p vs. 1080p is a much clearer distinction than PH530 vs. HC720 would be.

It isn't exactly apples-to-apples, but if you have a Best Buy anywhere nearby, give them a call and see if they have a projector room. A few do, and they'll likely have the Sony VPL-AW15, Optoma HD70, and Mitsubishi HC1500 all set up. Get them to close whatever doors and mask whatever windows are necessary to get it as dark as you can and then set the Sony and Optoma to their "best" modes. The difference between these two is probably close to the difference we're talking about, and that way you could actually see what we're discussing. The Acer isn't going to look quite the same as the Optoma, likewise the Sony and Epson, but it will at least illustrate that at this position in the market, the differences are more about ergonomics, convenience and customer support than they are about actual image quality.

Check out the screen shots in the ProjectorReviews.com write-up about the PH530 and peruse their owner's thread. I think it's pretty amazing what the Taiwanese are offering up for $600.

MrBostn

01-07-08, 04:53 PM

I can't find an Acer Ph530 for $600. Everyplace I see it's about $720. Plus I saw the Acer reseller cutsheet and It's listed as discontinued.

I'd buy it for $600-but not in the $700's

skablaw

01-07-08, 05:21 PM

You know, now that I look, I see the vendor I had in mind, named after a group of supposed intellectuals with thick glasses, greasy foreheads and well-worn pocket protectors, indeed is no longer selling the PH530. At least it is not posted on their site at the moment. If the current price structure persists, that would make the Optoma HD70 the next logical choice at about $700 after rebate.

It hadn't even occurred to me until now, but if you need some of the ergonomic features of the 3LCD projectors, the BenQ W500 has been well received by professional reviewers and it can be had for a little over $800. I suppose as you creep up the price ladder, the jump to something like the Home Cinema 720, PT-AX200U, or VPL-AW15 becomes more tempting.

The tyranny of fluctuating markets! Woe unto the consumer.

Audixium

01-07-08, 06:10 PM

Sometimes when I'm doing this, I wonder if the people who are replying to me are sitting in their office procrastinating a finance report too!

Well not a finance report, but the rest...

I did recently go to a BB "Magnolia showroom". They had only the Mitsu 1500 mounted and the sales guy was an ignorant A$$. I swore to only go there again when my son wanted to buy a game.

I've managed to confuse myself even more now. I was 99% ready for an AX200 - then the more I read about reliability issues I started moving towards the HC720. I was just waiting for a good review from Art. Now, thinking about that Acer makes me wonder about my motives.

I think due to ambient light issues in my living room I am still going to land on the HC720. I want good sports during the day without having to black out the room. I want contrast at night when the room is 99% light controlled. I think since I've put so much time into my PJ research that I'd start "seeing" things that aren't there if I chose the Acer.

But I still plan to do a $3k-5k PJ in my future basement HT, so the Acer keeps coming back up...no, I will not give in to the dark side. I'm going off to drool over HC720 screenshots.

mizzoutigers

01-07-08, 06:16 PM

Skablaw, I know you have demoed a lot of projectors, including the ones I am trying to decide between. I was originally set on the HC1500, but then the AX200 and HC720 also interest me. My home theater/family room will accomodate any of these 720 projectors. Due to the price, the HC1500 was the most appealing since it seems the PQ is pretty similar between these three units. Then the HC4900 had to come along with its low (after rebate) price for a 1080 projector. Now I am even more confused. I would like to purchase a projector in the next few months (by Spring) and want to have a long-term projector, not a stop-gap projector. Since you have seen these projectors, is the HC4900 worth the extra few hundred bucks (over the HC1500) or the extra couple hundred bucks (over the HC720 or AX200)? What is the difference in PQ between this bottom-end 1080 machine and these mid-tier 720 machines?

skablaw

01-07-08, 07:26 PM

mizzoutigers,

My love of A/V gear is matched only by my hatred of the Sooners, so I'm happy to be of whatever service I can. I would say that if you're mentally prepared to pay for the HC4900 and you haven't already resolved to buy a better projector in a year or two, it probably is the best choice of the options you've mentioned, contingent on two factors:

1) You don't crave the performance of projectors like the Sony VPL-VW60. If you think you might get the HC4900 and then wish you'd held out for the Epson Home Cinema 1080, Sanyo PLV-Z2000, or even the Panasonic PT-AE2000U, well, have no fear, buy the Mitsubishi and laugh all the way home with the $500 to $1,000 you've saved because, of the entry-level projectors, the difference in picture quality is not striking enough to be particularly concerned about choosing one over the other. Yes, all three of the more expensive units produce a better picture (especially on movies), but the difference is incremental, not night and day, and the gap could be further narrowed by a gray screen that would lower your overall black levels with little impact to brightness due to the Mitsubishi's excellent light output. Projectors like the VPL-VW60 or JVC's DLA-RS1 may be available for $2,500 in a year or so, though, so if that's what you're striving for, don't spend more than you have to now because you'll just end up dropping another big chunk of change when that type of performance becomes more affordable.

2) You plan on feeding the HC4900 a 1080p signal from a Blu-Ray player, HD-DVD player, or both. I'm not a 1080p snob, but I will tell you that with a high-definition disc, the difference in resolution is noticeable and quite breathtaking. Unless you have a true 1080p source, though, you really aren't missing much. Even 1080i cable HD programming is less than overwhelming because the material is so compressed that other compromises become evident much sooner than do resolution differences, and I think it is safe to say that 1080p will not be a wide-spread resolution outside of disc media for probably two years or so because it requires a massive amount of bandwidth.

If these two scenarios describe your situation and you're comfortable with the price, get the HC4900. There won't be another 1080p projector that substantially undercuts the current Projector People deal for a long while so I wouldn't have any buyer's remorse unless you are looking for the significantly more expensive projectors to come down to less stratospheric prices in a year or so. The SXRD projectors aren't going to dip to $1,500 for a while, but Sony is introducing the VPL-VW40 with an MSRP of $2,999, and that, for me, is a harbinger of forthcoming performance in the $2,000 - $3,000 range.

On a personal note, I bought the Home Cinema 720 for these reasons:

1) It has significant lens shift and zoom range, making it easy to integrate into my room without the finality of a ceiling-mount (mine is shelf mounted).

2) It is not DLP, essential for me because I'm sensitive to rainbows.

3) It has the potential to be bright, which I appreciate because I don't like to play video games in pitch-dark conditions and the Living Room mode is an exceptional blend of brightness and image quality.

4) From MSRP pricing (though mine was cheaper), it currently goes for $1,199 with a free $349 replacement lamp. Factor free shipping and no sales tax from an online vendor and you're coming in at a very attractive price point. As an aside, my vendor offered 2 years of no-interest financing, so I'm enjoying this projector for a few dollars per month.

5) I have owned displays in the past that have developed problems out of warranty and the result has always been that completely replacing the device proved less expensive than repairing it. Epson's fantastic warranty allays much of my fear about repeating this frustration.

Essentially this projector fits both my current needs and my long-term desires. I will buy a new projector in two years when I can afford SXRD-like performance, my financing period has expired and I am approaching the end of my second (free) lamp's life after having thoroughly enjoying my Home Cinema 720 without any apprehension about using high-lamp modes or watching it for hours on end. It was a rare confluence of factors that worked perfectly for me and I'm very happy with my decision, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone.

hypez604

01-07-08, 09:00 PM

3mar67

01-07-08, 10:10 PM

Here's a couple of quick screenshots (92 inch). Standard Def DVD. No tweaking...just out of the box. Haven't had it very long. Looks very good. I'm using my tiny point-and-shoot camera so sharp pics are impossible with its slow shutter since I didn't pause the movie.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i50/ruby1993/post01.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i50/ruby1993/post02.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i50/ruby1993/post03.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i50/ruby1993/post04.jpg

mjn

01-07-08, 11:20 PM

You guys are depressing me.

I bought the 720 just before they offered the Lamp rebate, is there anything I can do to get it, I use the Projector as my full time TV, the Lamp rebate would really be a great thing for me. The 4100 rebate would be great too, but I really want that free lamp. Who can petition for some compassion for an early adopter? I bought the PJ 7 days too soon? That doesn't seem very fair?

skablaw

01-07-08, 11:34 PM

mjn,

You purchased before the 21st of Dec.?

skablaw

01-07-08, 11:52 PM

HC720 picture quality doesn't really seem as good as on the Acer PH530.
about the HC4900 deal, I bought my PH530 so I could wait out for 1080p to become mainstream & cheap. thing is HC4900's color reproduction seems very dull compared to many other models... so biting on the first 1080p pj deal that pops is not the wisest, it's probably worth it to caught up a few more benji's and get a Sanyo PLV-Z2000, or wait for newer models to come out.

That's a bold statement. I'm not going to say it isn't true, but I will say it's bold. Have you had a chance to see them both in action, or are you comparing screen shots? If so, I must say that the Projector Reviews images of the PH530 do look quite good, but I'd be surprised if this wasn't more a result of varying photographic conditions.

I know it requires some inductive reasoning, which is a big no-no in the world of logic, but A/Bing the Sony VPL-AW15 and Optoma HD70 reveals the Sony to have the better picture for movie viewing. Being a similarly designed DLP projector, the PH530 is probably in line with the HD70's performance. I find the Home Cinema 720's Theatre Black 1 mode to be quite similar to the Sony's Cinema mode, iris set to 1 (not 2, which has better black levels than the Epson) so I would venture to say the Epson is superior to the HD70 (though at some of the prices the Optoma is available at, it certainly is the better value proposition).

If the PH530 looks as good or better, though, I can't say there's a compelling reason to spend more, unless you need lens shift or some other convenience feature it lacks.

mjn

01-08-08, 12:37 AM

mjn,

You purchased before the 21st of Dec.?

Yes, I would have waited had I known the rebate was coming. But I purchased on the 14th

Steerforth

01-08-08, 01:16 AM

Yes, I would have waited had I known the rebate was coming. But I purchased on the 14th

I bet if you called Epson, they'd just give it to you. Seven days is pretty cruel to deny on that basis. And they're a very reasonable company to deal with. Alternatively, your retailer might let you do a return "on paper" and issue you a new invoice. It's worth a try.

speculare

01-08-08, 06:21 AM

Great informative thread.

I was almost decided on getting a benq w500 when this new Epson got my attention, and been following it's threads here.

It brought me back wondering again...

It got worse now with the comparisons with the TW700.
Finally consulted a local vendor and got a great offer for a TW700 (they don't have the 720 yet).

At this moment I could get (in a local shop) a Tw700 + a logitech remote harmony 785 (offered as promotion) for the same price i can (and was plannig to) get a Benq w500 (online). The remote is offered in the bundle

I should really jump on the offer right? For what I read the TW700 should beat the Benq in everything except SD material?

thanks for any input
cheers
L.

3mar67

01-08-08, 08:49 AM

I don't think the lamp rebate applies to the HC720. I could be wrong.

skablaw

01-08-08, 09:46 AM

I don't think the lamp rebate applies to the HC720. I could be wrong.

You can see the particulars on the Visual Apex site. I called the folks there to ask when a form would be available and they said that Epson announced the rebate on Saturday, December 29th so the forms haven't been sent out to retailers yet. They're a very reputable vendor so I wouldn't expect any tomfoolery from them. We'll just need to sit tight for a bit. As long as your invoice is dated between 12/21/07 and 1/31/08, there shouldn't be any trouble.

skablaw

01-08-08, 10:06 AM

At this moment I could get (in a local shop) a Tw700 + a logitech remote harmony 785 (offered as promotion) for the same price i can (and was plannig to) get a Benq w500 (online). The remote is offered in the bundle

I should really jump on the offer right? For what I read the TW700 should beat the Benq in everything except SD material?

thanks for any input
cheers
L.

I'd say it sounds like a pretty good offer. I'm not sure exactly what price point you were considering the BenQ W500 at, but it can be had online for less than $850 so it would be insane not to pick up a TW700, from a local vendor no less, at a similar cost. The remote is a nice bit of swag, too, as it retails for between $150 and $200.

If the price you were planning on committing to for the W500 is more like $1,000, then I would balance your desire for the remote with the practical benefit of the free lamp being offered with the Home Cinema 720. I think the lamp is a better deal because remotes can be found on clearance sales, or picked up used from Videogon and the like with little chance of defects. Lamps have to be purchased new, and they're rarely discounted so I wouldn't pass on one expecting that next year it will be cheaper. The actual projector may go down several hundred, but the lamp may become even more expensive depending on supply and demand!

I like the idea of buying locally because brick and mortar Epson dealers aren't usually fly-by-night snake-oil peddlers. You can walk into some pretty scandalous stores hawking Sony and Panasonic products, but Epson doesn't have the kind of name-recognition that these hucksters like to lure unsuspecting customers with so you'd probably benefit from some good personal service and helpful follow-up should any ill befall your new projector.

You certainly don't lose either way. I think it's more worthwhile to consider these matters in a broader context. Either unit is an excellent sub-$1,500 display so you shouldn't fret about a Benjamin here or there. Over the course of it's lifetime, your projector's "cost per day" will remain absurdly low at these prices.

speculare

01-08-08, 10:21 AM

I'd say it sounds like a pretty good offer. I'm not sure exactly what price point you were considering the BenQ W500 at, but it can be had online for less than $850 so it would be insane not to pick up a TW700, from a local vendor no less, at a similar cost. The remote is a nice bit of swag, too, as it retails for between $150 and $200.

If the price you were planning on committing to for the W500 is more like $1,000, then I would balance your desire for the remote with the practical benefit of the free lamp being offered with the Home Cinema 720. I think the lamp is a better deal because remotes can be found on clearance sales, or picked up used from Videogon and the like with little chance of defects. Lamps have to be purchased new, and they're rarely discounted so I wouldn't pass on one expecting that next year it will be cheaper. The actual projector may go down several hundred, but the lamp may become even more expensive depending on supply and demand!

I like the idea of buying locally because brick and mortar Epson dealers aren't usually fly-by-night snake-oil peddlers. You can walk into some pretty scandalous stores hawking Sony and Panasonic products, but Epson doesn't have the kind of name-recognition that these hucksters like to lure unsuspecting customers with so you'd probably benefit from some good personal service and helpful follow-up should any ill befall your new projector.

You certainly don't lose either way. I think it's more worthwhile to consider these matters in a broader context. Either unit is an excellent sub-$1,500 display so you shouldn't fret about a Benjamin here or there. Over the course of it's lifetime, your projector's "cost per day" will remain absurdly low at these prices.

I should mention I am in Portugal so I will have to buy online to get proper prices.
That would be 938€ for the benq W500. (For your reference a Pan X200 would be 1200 €, a Epson 680 also 940€ and a tw700 at the same online store 995€.).
These are my price references and by far the best I could get.... no chance to get US prices or close, and no free lamps opportunities also.

Now locally I could get the TW700 for 945€ with free remote, three year waranty (according to email from Epson on Projector AND lamp) and a DOA warranty without having to ship a projector back to anther country.

I'm a little mesmerized at it seems a little too good to be true. The Epson portuguese xmas promotion was offering the tw700 with the remote for 1299€- I have the leaflet. Just some nice emails got me a vendor with a quote of 945€. Seems to good to be true.

Thanks for your comment, hope the price structure above makes my question more answerable.

cheers
L.

mjn

01-08-08, 11:39 AM

You can see the particulars on the Visual Apex site. I called the folks there to ask when a form would be available and they said that Epson announced the rebate on Saturday, December 29th so the forms haven't been sent out to retailers yet. They're a very reputable vendor so I wouldn't expect any tomfoolery from them. We'll just need to sit tight for a bit. As long as your invoice is dated between 12/21/07 and 1/31/08, there shouldn't be any trouble.

So they announce the rebate and retro it for 8 days but I bought mine 15 days before the announcement. And the window is over a month. How typical of my life is that.

I took a chance a little early based on Epsons great reputation and I get punished to the tune of $450, nice.

chansen

01-08-08, 04:22 PM

I am seriously thinking about picking up a PS3 to hook up to my HC720. What resolution do people use when using a HD source hooked to these projectors? Would I be better off with 720p or 1080i?

Steerforth

01-08-08, 04:44 PM

I called the folks there to ask when a form would be available and they said that Epson announced the rebate on Saturday, December 29th so the forms haven't been sent out to retailers yet.

ProjectorPeople had the form up on their website before that. The 28th, I think. It was only up for a very short time before they yanked it, though. That's what led to my confusion over whether it was valid in Canada or not, because, at the bottom of the form it said: "THIS IS THE U.S. REBATE FORM ONLY. FOR THE CANADIAN FORM, GO TO EPSON.CA."

Except there was no form at Epson.ca. Weird. It defintely was there, though.

jakejj

01-08-08, 05:05 PM

Has anyone seen a "Tweak Thread" here on the AVS Forum for the Epson HC720?

mjn- Have you tried calling Epson to see if they are willing to honor the current rebate even though you purchased the HC720 before the rebate period began? I have a friend who ordered an Epson PLPC800 from a forum sponsor months ago. The lamp that came with his PLPC800 burnt out around 15 days after the 90 day manufacturers lamp warranty expired. He called Epson and gave them his story. Epson could have told him he was SOL but they shipped him a replacement lamp at no charge.

Audixium

01-08-08, 05:13 PM

jakejj - thanks for your mount suggestion in my thread. Here is the tweak thread you asked about: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=970883

Steerforth

01-08-08, 05:19 PM

Whoa! Update!

I just spoke to a Canadian online retailer (they were closed when I spoke to Epson last week), and the salesman just told me that the Epson reps were dead wrong and that Epson Canada WILL DEFINITELY honour the rebate! Freaking awesome! $1,247.53 CAN (after $100 rebate), free lamp, free shipping. That is the best value of any projector in Canada, by far, and that seals the deal for me.

Dude said that Epson Canada is notoriously slow in posting information and rebate forms, but not to worry about it, as they would guarantee the rebate as a condition of sale. I apologize for the information I relayed before, but Epson was quite vehement in their position that the offer was U.S. only. Maybe they just changed their minds. That happens, I guess.

The retailer is not a forum sponsor, so I won't post a link, but any Canadians interested can PM me.

skablaw

01-08-08, 05:26 PM

Epson USA is quite vehement that there is no rebate here either, but retailers are posting it so I'm inclined to believe that Sanjay in customer support is just a little behind the curve. Maybe it's the 11 hour time difference. Who knows?

Steerforth

01-08-08, 05:45 PM

I actually wouldn't have minded it so much if it was some guy in India reading from a script who had no idea what I was talking about (as is typical today, sadly), but this was an actual English-speaking person at Epson USA who kept me on the phone for an hour, while she called her immediate supervisors, then people at Epson Canada, to "confirm" that the offer was not valid in Canada. You'd think they'd be able to a) get it right and b) take less time than that.

Oh, well. I'm just happy that we're getting it, too. :)

Stevenator

01-09-08, 05:21 PM

I've had been waiting for Art's review of the 720, and was disappointed in his comments on black levels. The pics did not look good either. Did he get a bad unit? It's perplexing to me, as a year ago, he said the Z5 had black levels as good as most PJ's to 10K, and said the 810 had very good blacks as well. The 720 has the same specs as the 810, and has newer panels, so should be at least as good. Interestingly, AVDeals.ca did a shootout with the 720 and Z5 recently, and said the 720 blew the Z5 away in every category, including black levels. They went further to say, that there was no comparison between the two. Sounds like the 720 must have pretty good blacks.? I'm interested in upgrading from an SP5000, but am undecided between the 720, 810 (white version), and maybe the 1080. I'm sure any of these will be an improvement. Even though the SP5000 looks great on my DIY Pewter Mug screen in any condition, except completely dark scenes. Also, I don't think the Sp5000handles motion that well. Any thoughts on how the 720 should handle fast motion? Any thoughts on all this? Thanks.

skablaw

01-09-08, 05:56 PM

I'm throwing my hands up. I just don't get what's wrong. When I watch my Home Cinema 720, I'm very happy. I demoed a lot of projectors, and I really feel like I picked up the best one in the price and resolution class I was considering, but Art isn't impressed. I guess it is the opinion of just one reviewer, but all of his gushing over practically every sub-$2000 projector has me perplexed at the ho-hum response the Epson received.

Reading his "vs." segment in "Summary, Pros, Cons," I'm left scratching my head. In "The Bottom Line," Art says that people looking for perfection will look elsewhere, but none of his comparisons reveal a superior contender. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

I hate to be critical because God knows the man has reviewed many many projectors and certainly knows what he's talking about, but some of the statements in this review seem contradictory, and the commentary occasionally rambles aimlessly.

Take, for instance, his opening remarks on skin-tone handling - "So, how did the HC720 do? Very well overall, but I should note that without more calibration than I know how to do, on occaision the can look a little contrasty and oversaturated. Please, I'm talking subtle here." Versus his conclusion - "Bottom line, not the most film-like handling of skin tones despite very natural color. The HC720 will please most, but not those seeking perfection for $1200 or so."

What is "film-like handling of skin tones" anyhow? In a preceding paragraph he makes a point to mention that films often intentionally distort the color palette to achieve a deliberate aesthetic. Would "film-like" not then be the faithful reproduction of the source, not necessarily realistic?

I'll admit that based on screen shots the Panasonic PT-AX200U seems to throw a much more pleasing image. I guess I'm at a loss. Maybe once a couple of other reviews have come in, we can start making some more general conclusions. For now, I can tell you that it is a very nice projector, and I don't regret buying it at all, but I am miffed by the lukewarm reception.

HotAhr

01-09-08, 06:00 PM

I too was confused by the review. In the end it has me looking at other options, but at the same time, when I talk to dealers that are selling this item, they really really like it. So, I too am looking for more info on it.

:(

Stevenator

01-09-08, 06:40 PM

Skablaw, sounds like you are pleased with your selection. That's great. My dilemma is related to this scenario: the SP5000 looks fantastic on lighter scenes, with the room lights on, and even on dark scenes that have some kind of light somewhere in the image. For example, a scene with a dark room and a table lamp on;looks great, with really black blacks. My black bars above/below the 2:35:1 image look black too.

Nevertheless, in a completely dark scene, such as in 'Rambo' - where he is being chased through the woods at night, or Pirates 1- night scenes on the ship at sea. The picture is dim, with loss of detail. I'm hoping an upgrade will provide much better dark scenes. I know these new projector have 3x or 4x better contrast, and better shadow detail. Skablaw, how do you think your 720 performs in the dark scenes? Is everything blacker, instead of dim? I'm using a 110" gray screen, so it is not excessively large.

HDholic

01-09-08, 07:03 PM

His review cannot be taken too seriously or as "THE" review of the entire industry, far from it. Many times he doesn't make sense and makes statements that make me wonder what qualifies him as a "Pro" reviewer.

He is comparing this model to more expensive 1080P models indirectly, even his opening comment states that "he's been spoiled by 1080P models" and in his blog, also states writing the review while "watching the 1080P UB" :rolleyes:. Of course the 720 is gonna have bad blacks and everything else...

For a "real" professional review, Cine4Home is one of the best. Just have to wait for it though, or read the TW700 for an idea HERE (http://cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/EpsonTW700/TW700Test.htm). You need to translate the page.

MrPenPad

01-09-08, 09:03 PM

Personally, I enjoyed his review and yes some reading between the lines is warrented - but I'll catch up to his line of reasoning after a few more readings (light optics can be a little like rocket science). I hope he is not being dogged after investing time and sharing years of experience. These guys are a absolute bonus on getting good insight and understanding that you just dont find in the owners manual.

Bottom line is that no projector will give as good a picture as looking out your front door ( screen or not ). Then again, I don't have beach front property. They each have strong and weak points that each individual should weight and choose a best fit for their environment and intent. I bought the Epson 720 3 weeks ago. I'm not looking for any "best of class" award from the industy to make me feel good about my purchase. There will always be somthing better in a month or two.

Why did I select the 720 ? A living room environment, TCO & low cost to operate ( teens can play xbox360 & wife can watch GH and hubby wont be monitoring the lamp hours ), DLP makes me physically ill while watching the dots vibrate. It does give one stellar picture imho. This forum is great to learn from and share observations and get advice. I hope this thread will grow in content as more people start to enjoy their newest pj and share their discoveries. With the menu access this light cannon has, I'm sure it has a few pleasent surprises waiting for us.

Being over 40, I just dont spend much time any more trying to get the last 3% out of my electronics. I now leave that to the younger generation that still gets excited about oxygen free speaker wires and ribbon tweeters.

My sons 8525 hermes is getting more iphone like everyday. I'm sure he will soon be responsible for our "felter-carb" and its support\integration\tuning\etc.

skablaw

01-09-08, 10:03 PM

I agree with the above, I'd just say that my own personal investment is immaterial at this point. I love my projector because it is showing me visual entertainment like I have never before experienced at home. My purpose is more to offer the insight of an owner to prospective buyers because even with all of the time Art puts into his reviews, he himself admits that the calibrations are cursory and the measurement less-than-scientific. That doesn't make his conclusions invalid, but it's important to take that commentary (for better or worse) with a grain of salt.

If you read back through the pages of this thread, you'll see a lot of posts where people declare that they are sitting on the fence until the ProjectorReviews.com analysis is in. Now that we have that analysis, some of those hesitant buyers are shying from a purchase because the tone of Art's commentary is less than ecstatic. I just would hate for people to come away from reading those opinions with a false understanding of the facts, and potentially suffer a worse experience by making an uninformed decision.

1080p is reaching some very reasonable prices, and the projectors of that class often have a number of other benefits beyond resolution that set them above the mid-level 720p crowd, but for those who are firmly adhering to their price ceilings, this projector is about as good as you're going to get in a new unit. If you pick up a customer-return XV-Z12000MkII for a grand, well then I tip my hat to you, but for those who can't waste time and energy waiting on a stroke of luck, you aren't going to be disappointed in the Epson.

Those of you reading this thread to help you make up your mind, I think you should make a list of exactly what you need/want in a projector and stick within that framework. If you can safely spend more than $1,500, maybe you should take a peek at Mitsubishi's HC4900. If you don't need lens shift, but you're bothered by rainbows, consider Sony's VPL-AW10 (I've seen it under $800!), if DLP doesn't bother you and you can ceiling mount, you're nuts not to look at the Mitsubishi HC3000 or Sharp DT-510. But, if your list of needs is specific, and it includes a sub-$1500 price-tag, lens shift, no rainbows, and enough muscle to either fight back ambient light or throw a 100"+ image, the Epson and the Panasonic PT-AX200U are what you're looking for. Take your pick of the two, just weigh the Panasonic's smooth-screen technology and seemingly better color reproduction against the Epson's warranty and bulb rebate.

3mar67

01-10-08, 10:01 AM

The rebate form for the HC 720 is now on the Epson.com site. The form states the rebate is valid for the U.S. as well as those of us in Canada. Purchase must be between Dec. 21 and Jan. 31. The website says the rebate is 300 dollars and a free lamp for a 649 dollar savings. But the rebate form says 100 dollars and a free lamp. I'm guessing the website figure might be a mistake.

Heavywait

01-10-08, 11:03 AM

Well stated Skablaw. I would have said exactly the same thing but I didnt take enough English classes in school.

chansen

01-10-08, 11:38 AM

I have reread the review a couple of times, and honestly, I thought the review was quite positive. Maybe I just heard what I wanted to justify my purchase, but her are the quotes that caught my attention...

"but overall, it easily holds its own with less expensive and even more expensive DLP projectors like the Optoma HD70, Mitsubishi HC1500, and Optoma HD73. It is also significantly brighter than the Sanyo PLV-Z5 projector or Sony AW15, both LCD projectors."

"The Epson Home Cinema 720 is awarded our Hot Product Award, based primarily on its very sharp, bright image, and its strength as a projector that performs at least very well, on all types of content, from movies to sports, especially for a low cost 720p projector entry. Think of it this way. Epson's HC720 is sensational for watching sports and does a very respectable job on movies!"

Doesn't that rank pretty high if not the highest amongst the sub $1,500 720p competitors?

Numerous times he had to compare it to the JVC RS2. Not bad considering I bought mine for $1051.

"Despite the lack of really great black levels, the Home Cinema 720 is really very good on shadow details. In this it reminds me very much of the $2000 Mitsubishi HC4900, currently the lowest cost 1080p projector. It too doesn't do great blacks, yet the details are there."

"For comparison, here is our reigning champ, the $8000 1080p, JVC DLA-RS2."

"This Epson almost shouts out: "look how sharp my image is". I normally point out that even the softest 1080p projector is far beyond the sharpest 720p projector at resolving detail and appearing sharp. With this Epson, that's simply is less true."

On his summary, I interpret versus the PT-AX200U a tie not counting warranty and customer service. No competition versus the other entries.

I have no idea where "perfection" can be found in this price range. Maybe if I throw another $7,000 against it for the JVC I might find it.

Maybe he is sick of looking at sub $1,500 720p pjs and doesn't want to be too positive about any one now that 1080p can be had for about $1,000 to $1,500 more.

My $.02 anyway.