All these new display technologies appear to be half-baked. I've researched intensively for a new HDTV, and they all suffer from problems the end consumer should not have to deal with after plunking down $1000 and up: Motion blur, flashlighting, clouding, uniformity issues, burn in potential, line bleed, SDE, SSE, etc. etc. or the RPTV just breaks down.

The closest answer, as I see it, is plasma, but their PQ appears dim to me, and whites look more like light grey. They get way too hot, and you have some of the problems mentioned above.

Add to this the fact that there's still alot of SD content out there, and it usually looks like crap blown up on a big HDTV.

I'm actually considering something that would have seemed unthinkable 2 months ago when I first got excited about HD: Staying SD. It seems to me that HDTV's won't be adequately perfected (not perfect) for at least another 2 to 3 years. By then there will be more HD content, and prices will have dropped as well.

This post started out as an email to advise a friend after I got him all excited about HD talking about my research.

I'd love it if someone could show me the error of my ways, but I'm pretty discouraged right now.

Ok, pep talk time!

I would advise that you look only at well calibrated 1080p plasmas, including but not limited to Panasonic's 50PZ700/750U, Samsung's 5084, or Pioneer's 5010.

None of these panels will fall within a 1k budget, but for a little more than 2x that (for the cheaper models among the three anyways), you will find your excellent picture quality.

I assure you, there's nothing grey about the whites on these sets. In my experience, they are bright enough to be painful without proper bias lighting - and my Pany 700U is definitely the least bright of the above mentioned sets.

10 minutes into your first blueray/hd dvd disk, and I have no doubt that you will be wondering why you didn't buy an HD set 6 months ago. The picture quality is simply stunning...

Yes, an HD set will reveal certain flaws in your SD signal, in the same way that the world looks less ugly (but more blurry) when you walk around without your glasses on. But some SD channels look surprisingly sharp - especially if you watch in SD's proper aspect ratio.

Prices will drop and better sets will come out, but there really are already some good options out there :)

Wow, I thought I was obsessive compulsive.
Thanks for making me feel better.

PS, any HDTV is better than any SDTV.

If you insist on perfection or nothing......welcome to nothing.....and get used to it!

Take the proctologist's view of life and you'll miss out on the beautiful view the rest of us have been enjoying.

There is no perfect video display. The one's that are near perfect cost a lot more than you are willing to spend.

This has been said many times before by many different people on this board in many different contexts, but I think it bears repeating here.

Universal Truism 1: The products coming out 2-3 years from now will be better than the products out today, but not as good as the products coming out 2-3 years from then.

Universal Truism 2: There is such a thing as paralysis by analysis, and it is endemic amongst the analytical-types who feel the need to research the ever-living-snot out of every purchase they make (a sentiment which is only heightened when there is a multi-thousand dollar, technology-oriented purchase at issue). These are the types of folks that decide, "hey, I'm going to get an HDTV, maybe I should start researching it", and eventually end up here at AVS, get information overload, and get frustrated at least once. I would venture a guess that somewhere between 99.999997% and 99.999999% of AVS Members are such a person.

Universal Truism 3: Joe Six-Pack who uses his aol account for his email, has never even heard of AVS, and walks into Best Buy to pick out the best one by spending 20 minutes glancing at the 40 sets on the wall WILL, in no uncertain terms, be happy with his decision -- uninformed though it may be.

Universal Truism 4: One cannot begin to enjoy HDTV until one owns an HDTV.

Universal Truism 5: The character described in Universal Truism 2 will spend 2 months researching, get frustrated for a month and call it quits, spend 4 more months researching, and then will ultimately realize the truth of Universal Truisms 1 and 4 and will buy the set he believes to be the best available at the time for his needs, based upon a thorough analysis of all then then-available information. He will then be as happy (or nearly as happy) as Joe Six-Pack from Universal Truism 3, only he will have the satisfaction of "knowing" he made the "right" decision.

Moral of the Truisms: The only difference between the agony you are putting yourself through and the Joe Six-Pack approach is that you will feel satisfied that what you ended up doing was the "right" thing based on all the available information. Is all of that trouble worth that relatively minor difference? Unquestionably, yes.

/pep talk 2

--Mav

SD is half baked;(can you say interlaced) that is why I am going to stick with shadow puppet entertainment for the next half century. I went through all this before when people tried to persuade me to upgrade to that half baked display known as Etch A Sketch. No thank you, I am going to stick with tried and true caveman era shadow casting. ;)

It seems to me that HDTV's won't be adequately perfected (not perfect) for at least another 2 to 3 years.

No such thing as perfection though. It's not humanly possible.

There are many really good products out there. You must remember that what you read here and in pro reviews are nit picking to the highest degree. If you look at the higher rated products from any technology, in someones home environment, reasonably set up PQ wise, you will see magnificent picture and a very very happy owner. SD really blows but there is so much HD content available now that for most it's a non factor. With prices where they are right now I would tell anyone to jump in and enjoy and have yourself a wonderful experience.

This forum is the emergency room for injured displays, and techno-condriacs.(Not a real word, I just coined it.)

Forming your impressions on the general health of the entire HDTV population from what you find on this site, is the same as scouring the emergency room at the local general hospital, and concluding, from what you observe, that there must be no healthy people on the planet!:)

This forum is the emergency room for injured displays, and techno-condriacs.(Not a real word, I just coined it.) Forming your impressions on the general health of the entire HDTV population from what you find on this site, is the same as scouring the emergency room at the local general hospital, and concluding, from what you observe, that there must be no healthy people on the planet!
Cute! Also apt.

I agree with much of your sentiment LT9000, and am waiting at least until after the new year to see where prices go (as the NY Times has recommended consumers do). Despite what the true believers say here, I think you're right to say that when you pay multiple thousands of dollars you should be getting a product that doesn't have major issues, which the posters above white-wash. Let's not be naive--technology is big, big business, and the hype draws people in. Just compare how these displays are presented at your typical Best Buy with how regular CRT's were displayed 10 years ago. Nowadays you get slow-moving (to hide motion blur), super-color-saturated scenes of nature to make you feel like you'll be "transported" when you watch your HDTV. But guess what: when you get it home you'll be watching the same old crap (at least that's what I think of much of the content available) that you watch on your SDTV. Of course, if retailers (hypers) just showed regular TV programming on models that are offered for sale, like in the "old days" (10 years ago), you wouldn't be hooked in with the subliminal, emotional "wow factor." You'd look at say to yourself, "wow, look how big that toilet-paper commercial is. I wonder if I need any toilet paper?" That the manufacturers and retailers have folks spinning in circles over these displays is readily apparent when you read the hyper-emotional posts on this website over what technology is better, whether you need 1080p, whether 120hz makes it "feel like you're looking through a window," blah, blah, blah, etc. Did people ever foam at the mouth like that over VCR's and CRT's? Not that I remember. And I think much of that is from the marketing of these products, not simply because they are bigger and sharper.

Remember, this is business, and the goal here is to take money from you, and as much of that money as possible. On that subject, here's an interesting little blurb regarding legal/technological developments that no one seems to talk about:

Liquid Crystal Displays - In February 2007, Green Welling LLP filed a class action lawsuit in United States District Court on behalf of persons or entities who purchased Liquid Crystal Displays ("LCD") indirectly from the world’s leading LCD manufacturers, including: LG Philips, Samsung, Sharp Electronics, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sanyo Epson, NEC, IDT, AU Optronics, Chi Mei Optronics, Chunghwa Picture Tubes, and Hannstar Display. Plaintiffs allege that, in violation of federal and state antitrust and state consumer protection laws, Defendants colluded among themselves and certain co-conspirators to fix the price of LCDs sold in the United States at supracompetitive prices. As a result of this allegedly unlawful conduct, Plaintiffs allege they paid artificially high prices for LCDs.

So, don't believe the hype, trust your gut, be business-like about your decision, and treat this like buying any other major appliance.

Im happy to own a 42" Westy 1080p, Maxent 50" plasma, Vizio 37" LCD, Panny 50" Plasma, JVC 61" 1080p and AU900 panny 720p 102" screen.

Im happy to report that myself, family and hundreds of people love HD on all my equipment. I host football games, etc all the time here in florida. Im so happy I dont know of a peron with the problems the OP has. :D Im sorry about your OCD ;)

As for my eyesight? Its Airline Pilot rated (I passed those tests easily)

As for the market not producing great TVs, well those who complain like this are not the customer companies want to produce products for anyways. Its for the average person who just loves to watch great TV in HD, good thing 99% of the public doesnt care about the rants I read in these sections too much.

I'd love it if someone could show me the error of my ways, but I'm pretty discouraged right now.

Drugs...lots of drugs :D

btw, great post Greenland!!

I agree with much of your sentiment LT9000, and am waiting at least until after the new year to see where prices go (as the NY Times has recommended consumers do). Despite what the true believers say here, I think you're right to say that when you pay multiple thousands of dollars you should be getting a product that doesn't have major issues, which the posters above white-wash. Let's not be naive--technology is big, big business, and the hype draws people in. Just compare how these displays are presented at your typical Best Buy with how regular CRT's were displayed 10 years ago. Nowadays you get slow-moving (to hide motion blur), super-color-saturated scenes of nature to make you feel like you'll be "transported" when you watch your HDTV. But guess what: when you get it home you'll be watching the same old crap (at least that's what I think of much of the content available) that you watch on your SDTV. Of course, if retailers (hypers) just showed regular TV programming on models that are offered for sale, like in the "old days" (10 years ago), you wouldn't be hooked in with the subliminal, emotional "wow factor." You'd look at say to yourself, "wow, look how big that toilet-paper commercial is. I wonder if I need any toilet paper?" That the manufacturers and retailers have folks spinning in circles over these displays is readily apparent when you read the hyper-emotional posts on this website over what technology is better, whether you need 1080p, whether 120hz makes it "feel like you're looking through a window," blah, blah, blah, etc. Did people ever foam at the mouth like that over VCR's and CRT's? Not that I remember. And I think much of that is from the marketing of these products, not simply because they are bigger and sharper.

Remember, this is business, and the goal here is to take money from you, and as much of that money as possible. On that subject, here's an interesting little blurb regarding legal/technological developments that no one seems to talk about:

Liquid Crystal Displays - In February 2007, Green Welling LLP filed a class action lawsuit in United States District Court on behalf of persons or entities who purchased Liquid Crystal Displays ("LCD") indirectly from the world’s leading LCD manufacturers, including: LG Philips, Samsung, Sharp Electronics, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sanyo Epson, NEC, IDT, AU Optronics, Chi Mei Optronics, Chunghwa Picture Tubes, and Hannstar Display. Plaintiffs allege that, in violation of federal and state antitrust and state consumer protection laws, Defendants colluded among themselves and certain co-conspirators to fix the price of LCDs sold in the United States at supracompetitive prices. As a result of this allegedly unlawful conduct, Plaintiffs allege they paid artificially high prices for LCDs.

So, don't believe the hype, trust your gut, be business-like about your decision, and treat this like buying any other major appliance.

I beg to differ with your characterization of our comments as a whitewash of the issues. Every display has issues, every display in 2-3 years will have issues (albeit different issues than the current ones), every display 4-6 years from now will have issues (albeit different issues than the current ones), and so on. That's the nature of the beast. There is no perfect display or perfect technology for every conceivable type of content and viewing environment. Some of this is a product of the infrastructure that will get better over time (the only true 1080p content out there is HD/BR discs; and most HDTV programming is poorly-executed or upscaled SD content from network sources who don't quite know what they're doing yet and/or don't quite have the equipment to do it yet), but a lot of it is just the nature of the technology. To not buy something because something better will come along is pretty ridiculous -- particularly, in a technology-driven industry where something better will always be coming along. The only think that perspective accomplishes is to ensure that you will never buy one.

Finally, remember, most of us here have no skin in this game one way or another. We are mostly technology-loving folks who REALLY enjoy our HD sets and our HDTV experience and are genuinely supportive of one another and "newbies" who come here looking for advice.

--Mav

P.S. Class action anti-trust litigation in this country is hardly something to get excited about. The filing of a complaint bears no relationship to its merits.

P.P.S. If done properly, 9 times out of 10 the viewing experience will be MUCH better at home with a given set than it is in the store, so it's not quite the little bait and switch you make it out to be.

I agree with much of your sentiment LT9000, and am waiting at least until after the new year to see where prices go (as the NY Times has recommended consumers do). Despite what the true believers say here, I think you're right to say that when you pay multiple thousands of dollars you should be getting a product that doesn't have major issues, which the posters above white-wash. Let's not be naive--technology is big, big business, and the hype draws people in. Just compare how these displays are presented at your typical Best Buy with how regular CRT's were displayed 10 years ago. Nowadays you get slow-moving (to hide motion blur), super-color-saturated scenes of nature to make you feel like you'll be "transported" when you watch your HDTV. But guess what: when you get it home you'll be watching the same old crap (at least that's what I think of much of the content available) that you watch on your SDTV. Of course, if retailers (hypers) just showed regular TV programming on models that are offered for sale, like in the "old days" (10 years ago), you wouldn't be hooked in with the subliminal, emotional "wow factor." You'd look at say to yourself, "wow, look how big that toilet-paper commercial is. I wonder if I need any toilet paper?" That the manufacturers and retailers have folks spinning in circles over these displays is readily apparent when you read the hyper-emotional posts on this website over what technology is better, whether you need 1080p, whether 120hz makes it "feel like you're looking through a window," blah, blah, blah, etc. Did people ever foam at the mouth like that over VCR's and CRT's? Not that I remember. And I think much of that is from the marketing of these products, not simply because they are bigger and sharper.

Remember, this is business, and the goal here is to take money from you, and as much of that money as possible. On that subject, here's an interesting little blurb regarding legal/technological developments that no one seems to talk about:

Liquid Crystal Displays - In February 2007, Green Welling LLP filed a class action lawsuit in United States District Court on behalf of persons or entities who purchased Liquid Crystal Displays ("LCD") indirectly from the world’s leading LCD manufacturers, including: LG Philips, Samsung, Sharp Electronics, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sanyo Epson, NEC, IDT, AU Optronics, Chi Mei Optronics, Chunghwa Picture Tubes, and Hannstar Display. Plaintiffs allege that, in violation of federal and state antitrust and state consumer protection laws, Defendants colluded among themselves and certain co-conspirators to fix the price of LCDs sold in the United States at supracompetitive prices. As a result of this allegedly unlawful conduct, Plaintiffs allege they paid artificially high prices for LCDs.

So, don't believe the hype, trust your gut, be business-like about your decision, and treat this like buying any other major appliance.
Oh, woe is me! If they're all not out to get me, I'm sure they soon will be. :rolleyes:

Mr 9000,you studied far to long. Rear projection (with real color guns are no longer manufactured). Great HD and with 50 channels and a recorder, who needs SD.:D

Im happy to own a 42" Westy 1080p, Maxent 50" plasma, Vizio 37" LCD, Panny 50" Plasma, JVC 61" 1080p and AU900 panny 720p 102" screen.

Let's see, so you've spent easily several thousand dollars on HDTV's. Could it be that some of your hostility towards me stems from the fact that you feel like a dumb-ass for spending that much on mediocre technology?

Bear in mind that not all of us are over-paid union pilots with money falling out their pockets.

This has been said many times before by many different people on this board in many different contexts, but I think it bears repeating here.

Universal Truism 1: The products coming out 2-3 years from now will be better than the products out today, but not as good as the products coming out 2-3 years from then.

Universal Truism 2: There is such a thing as paralysis by analysis, and it is endemic amongst the analytical-types who feel the need to research the ever-living-snot out of every purchase they make (a sentiment which is only heightened when there is a multi-thousand dollar, technology-oriented purchase at issue). These are the types of folks that decide, "hey, I'm going to get an HDTV, maybe I should start researching it", and eventually end up here at AVS, get information overload, and get frustrated at least once. I would venture a guess that somewhere between 99.999997% and 99.999999% of AVS Members are such a person.

Universal Truism 3: Joe Six-Pack who uses his aol account for his email, has never even heard of AVS, and walks into Best Buy to pick out the best one by spending 20 minutes glancing at the 40 sets on the wall WILL, in no uncertain terms, be happy with his decision -- uninformed though it may be.

Universal Truism 4: One cannot begin to enjoy HDTV until one owns an HDTV.

Universal Truism 5: The character described in Universal Truism 2 will spend 2 months researching, get frustrated for a month and call it quits, spend 4 more months researching, and then will ultimately realize the truth of Universal Truisms 1 and 4 and will buy the set he believes to be the best available at the time for his needs, based upon a thorough analysis of all then then-available information. He will then be as happy (or nearly as happy) as Joe Six-Pack from Universal Truism 3, only he will have the satisfaction of "knowing" he made the "right" decision.

Moral of the Truisms: The only difference between the agony you are putting yourself through and the Joe Six-Pack approach is that you will feel satisfied that what you ended up doing was the "right" thing based on all the available information. Is all of that trouble worth that relatively minor difference? Unquestionably, yes.

/pep talk 2

--Mav

Most of your truisms are basically "no-brainers" anyone would agree with, except for your moral which is untrue. Joe sixpack may well buy a POS and have to live with it, or have to mess with repairs/exchanges. I have a much better chance of avoiding that by learning first, or even waiting.

Ok, pep talk time!

I would advise that you look only at well calibrated 1080p plasmas, including but not limited to Panasonic's 50PZ700/750U, Samsung's 5084, or Pioneer's 5010.

None of these panels will fall within a 1k budget, but for a little more than 2x that (for the cheaper models among the three anyways), you will find your excellent picture quality.

I assure you, there's nothing grey about the whites on these sets. In my experience, they are bright enough to be painful without proper bias lighting - and my Pany 700U is definitely the least bright of the above mentioned sets.

10 minutes into your first blueray/hd dvd disk, and I have no doubt that you will be wondering why you didn't buy an HD set 6 months ago. The picture quality is simply stunning...

Yes, an HD set will reveal certain flaws in your SD signal, in the same way that the world looks less ugly (but more blurry) when you walk around without your glasses on. But some SD channels look surprisingly sharp - especially if you watch in SD's proper aspect ratio.

Prices will drop and better sets will come out, but there really are already some good options out there :)

Thanks for your input Sceptic (and everyone who attempted constructive input.) I came within an inch of buying a Panny plasma last week, but didn't b/c the PQ appeared dim/dull. Maybe if I get one home without all of that bright store lighting it will be a non-issue. Plasma still seems to have the fewest issues of any display tech so far.

Let's see, so you've spent easily several thousand dollars on HDTV's. Could it be that some of your hostility towards me stems from the fact that you feel like a dumb-ass for spending that much on mediocre technology?

Bear in mind that not all of us are over-paid union pilots with money falling out their pockets.

Wow, thats a little harsh.

I do agree with the theme of the post here, you will never get the latest and greatest as there will be something new down the road. There is a downside to everything. Same way with cars, do you not buy a new car even though a new model year is coming out? or a better used car may be available in 10 days?

I didn't buy the Sharp 52" 1080p LCD last year because of the banding issue but 3 of my friends did and I kick myself for not pulling the trigger as they have no issues. My wife got so sick of me going back and forth on a new TV for the last 18 months she wouldn't go near the TV section of any store we went to. Meanwhile here I was still watching HD TV (football) on a 32" Samsung LCD. All my friends and neighbors couldn't beleive that it what I had as I am the guy with the latest and greatest everything (yes I get paid way too much $$ to analyze data for the govt. that may be my problem!) I have 4 26" LCD in my game on a HD distro but yet I couldn't pull the trigger on a 52" plasma/LCD purchase as I found issue with each one looked at. Meanwhile I did no research the the LCD purchase, just found the best deal and bought them.

I picked up the Samsung 50" 1080p plasma on monday and I don't know how I lived without it. The Blu-Ray player purchase is next after I mount the TV and buy the bias light from GeorgeAB

Just find what is best for your needs, buy it, and enjoy the purchase

G/L

This forum is the emergency room for injured displays, and techno-condriacs.(Not a real word, I just coined it.)

Forming your impressions on the general health of the entire HDTV population from what you find on this site, is the same as scouring the emergency room at the local general hospital, and concluding, from what you observe, that there must be no healthy people on the planet!:)

That's a good point. My tech friend just reminded me of this too: ("alot of the people that go there are having trouble with their sets.") But I still think most HDTV products aren't perfected just yet.

BTW, by "perfected" I don't really mean perfect. I mean a product relatively free of major bugs and defects for the end consumer. That's not what many folks are getting right now.

Wow, thats a little harsh.

Did you read the part where he said I have "OCD" and need "lots of drugs?"

Just get the best mainstream panel(s) out there at the moment..a Kuro Pioneer plasma and be done with it. :cool:
Take a look at the Kuro photo thread and be amazed. Forget about LCD and the others. Your prize awaits.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11849241#post11849241

When the Wright Brothers got their first plane in the air, was that "mediocre technology"? The Kitty Hawk technology pales in comparison to anything flying today, but it was still unbelievably fanfreakintastic technology.

And while we're at it, are today's planes "mediocre technology"? They're still affected by wind shear and other phenomena such that passengers may experience turbulence. And they can't always take off in icy weather. And one out of every couple hundred thousand flights crashes. There are undoubtedly advancements to come.

The point is that technology is *always* relative. What came before wasn't as good, and what comes after is better. So it's not clear why you are so down on today's technology - there's never been anything better.

And the issues you listed are almost universally overblown - they're either minor, non-existent or largely things of the past. HDTVs look pretty darn fantastic.

Will they get better? Everybody on this site who loves their current HDTV hopes so, so they can enjoy even better technology in the future.

So lighten up Francis! And enjoy a new HDTV while you're at it. :)

I was thinking the same, now i want the TV ^^ that guy just posted :D

When the Wright Brothers got their first plane in the air, was that "mediocre technology"? The Kitty Hawk technology pales in comparison to anything flying today, but it was still unbelievably fanfreakintastic technology.

And while we're at it, are today's planes "mediocre technology"? They're still affected by wind shear and other phenomena such that passengers may experience turbulence. And they can't always take off in icy weather. And one out of every couple hundred thousand flights crashes. There are undoubtedly advancements to come.

The point is that technology is *always* relative. What came before wasn't as good, and what comes after is better. So it's not clear why you are so down on today's technology - there's never been anything better.

And the issues you listed are almost universally overblown - they're either minor, non-existent or largely things of the past. HDTVs look pretty darn fantastic.

Will they get better? Everybody on this site who loves their current HDTV hopes so, so they can enjoy even better technology in the future.

So lighten up Francis! And enjoy a new HDTV while you're at it. :)

Would you have bought the Wright brothers plane and expected to enjoy it? I doubt it.

Just get the best mainstream panel(s) out there at the moment..a Kuro Pioneer plasma and be done with it. :cool:
Take a look at the Kuro photo thread and be amazed. Forget about LCD and the others. Your prize awaits.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11849241#post11849241

I guess, but I'm thinking of just getting a good value in a PX 700 series Panna plasma if I pull the trigger. I couldn't tell a great difference in the 720p vs 1080p unless I got real close in the store. From several ft away in a 50 inch, I bet the difference would be very subtle.

I just read the above post by Elemental and burst out laughing at "Forget about LCD and the others. Your prize awaits." I don't doubt your sincerety, and you're clearly self-confident, but there are very well-informed people who say just the opposite. I guess they are all wrong?

The reason I used the term white-washing above is that I can't think of another instance in which serious issues are raised as to a product's ability to perform even the basic functions for which it is intended (see HD Guru's brand-new resolution-test article), and then massive amounts of time and energy are spent by proponents to explain why those issues don't really matter. I don't think I've ever heard so often in the context of considering a major purchase the phrase "well nothing's perfect."

What is really going on is that the manufacturers and retailers believe that a majority of the population will replace their television sets within the next 10 years, and they are fighting it out now to see who will dominate that market when it really picks up steam. The strategy is to release beta ("well, nothing's perfect") versions of products and try to build loyalty among the early adopters to whom the later purchasers will look for help in making purchasing decisions. (Who's to say that some posters on here are not, in fact, paid by manufacturers to advocate a particular model, e.g., Pioneer Kuros.) This process will winnow down the field to a few major contenders who will then control the market. At that point, the product will be more standardized (see, e.g., home computers) and I would be surprised to hear anyone say "well, nothing's perfect." We're just not there yet.

Would you have bought the Wright brothers plane and expected to enjoy it? I doubt it.

Does somebody need a hug? <scratches behind LT9000's ears> Who's a grumpy boy? <Tickles LT9000> Who's a grumpy boy? <Pat on LT9000's head> Come oooooooon now, turn that frown upside down!

Let's see, so you've spent easily several thousand dollars on HDTV's. Could it be that some of your hostility towards me stems from the fact that you feel like a dumb-ass for spending that much on mediocre technology?

Bear in mind that not all of us are over-paid union pilots with money falling out their pockets.


lol, Just was speaking about my eyesight qualifications because people love to post about others not having good eyesight.

Im not a pilot, I do software for a living and lots of DIY stuff but only enough so I can golf more or post mindless stuff on here :D

Wasting money?? lets see....

$2000 for a panny 50" LAST CHRISTMAS, 61" JVC 1080p then too for $2400...two HUGE deals.

The Westy 1080p 42" LCD is a free replacement for my first LCD 37" westy three years ago. Good thing I had purchased the warranty :D :D

The Vizio 37" was $650 and the Maxent was my best steal yet....$850 open box at best buy 1 month ago!!

so thats about $7K in TVs.....not a big deal but I have lots of rooms that need them.

You dont like anything out there? That is your problem NO MINE OR ANY MANUFACTURER. I feel for you I really do, you cant enjoy the content (HD sports, HD movies, HD Heroes and House on TV).

ALL These TVs are awesome, compare them to the average household TV and you have a huge improvement. If you are splitting hairs like what happens here I hate to see how some of you live in the real world.


You asked if it was you and I said yes, you posted a simply insane opinion, did you really expect any other sort of response?

Does my post help at all? nope, of course not but its as silly as this thread period. I hope ZERO manufacturers listen to people like you, nothing will ever get created if we try to go your route. Most of us just like things to work and look good. We are the ones spending the money too so who really matters??

I love my TVs, I can sit in my pool and watch football on a 50" plasma....now that rocks.

lol, Just was speaking about my eyesight qualifications because people love to post about others not having good eyesight.

Im not a pilot, I do software for a living and lots of DIY stuff but only enough so I can golf more or post mindless stuff on here :D

Wasting money?? lets see....

$2000 for a panny 50" LAST CHRISTMAS, 61" JVC 1080p then too for $2400...two HUGE deals.

The Westy 1080p 42" LCD is a free replacement for my first LCD 37" westy three years ago. Good thing I had purchased the warranty :D :D

The Vizio 37" was $650 and the Maxent was my best steal yet....$850 open box at best buy 1 month ago!!

so thats about $7K in TVs.....not a big deal but I have lots of rooms that need them.

You dont like anything out there? That is your problem NO MINE OR ANY MANUFACTURER. I feel for you I really do, you cant enjoy the content (HD sports, HD movies, HD Heroes and House on TV).

ALL These TVs are awesome, compare them to the average household TV and you have a huge improvement. If you are splitting hairs like what happens here I hate to see how some of you live in the real world.


You asked if it was you and I said yes, you posted a simply insane opinion, did you really expect any other sort of response?

Does my post help at all? nope, of course not but its as silly as this thread period. I hope ZERO manufacturers listen to people like you, nothing will ever get created if we try to go your route. Most of us just like things to work and look good. We are the ones spending the money too so who really matters??

I love my TVs, I can sit in my pool and watch football on a 50" plasma....now that rocks.

OK Rockefeller.

BTW if this thread is so "silly" why are you bumping it by posting in it - even editing your last post? Don't you have some HDTV to watch?

P.S. If you don't want to make any bad blood, don't tell people they have "OCD" and need "lots of drugs" just because you disagree with them. Most folks will find that offensive.

OK Rockefeller.

BTW if this thread is so "silly" why are you bumping it by posting in it - even editing your last post? Don't you have some HDTV to watch?

P.S. If you don't want to make any bad blood, don't tell people they have "OCD" and need "lots of drugs" just because you disagree with them. Most folks will find that offensive.

No Rockefeller, I believe in give my childern all my debt when Im done ;)

Sorry to ruffle your feathers. It just seem to be such an extreme thread to start with period. I mean, millions of people are loving HD Flat panels, Heck I dont know once in the real world I have heard someone say the things I read in these Flat panel forums. The comments I hear day to day, any time Im in a store or I have friends over is simply the "Wow" and "So Cool".


I just think people here are kind of out of touch sometimes with reality and go crazy with all the possible problems that could happen. They spend more time LOOKING for flaws then enjoy the real purpose of owning a TV....which is to waste brain cells and time watching bad conent ;)

You did ask if it was you and Im seriously saying it is you! The new flat panels coming out all the time are awesome for the normal person buying a new TV. If you have an issue its your pickiness that is stopping you from buying something that millions love.


btw, I have no idea why I waste time on here, usually its during work hours but sometimes its better to be on here then to watch survivor with my wife :D

Wasnt anyone else taught the following?

If you go looking for flaws you are always going to find them. Those who choose not to look for the flaws but instead look for the positives are much happier period.

I just read the above post by Elemental and burst out laughing at "Forget about LCD and the others. Your prize awaits." I don't doubt your sincerety, and you're clearly self-confident, but there are very well-informed people who say just the opposite. I guess they are all wrong?

The reason I used the term white-washing above is that I can't think of another instance in which serious issues are raised as to a product's ability to perform even the basic functions for which it is intended (see HD Guru's brand-new resolution-test article), and then massive amounts of time and energy are spent by proponents to explain why those issues don't really matter. I don't think I've ever heard so often in the context of considering a major purchase the phrase "well nothing's perfect."

What is really going on is that the manufacturers and retailers believe that a majority of the population will replace their television sets within the next 10 years, and they are fighting it out now to see who will dominate that market when it really picks up steam. The strategy is to release beta ("well, nothing's perfect") versions of products and try to build loyalty among the early adopters to whom the later purchasers will look for help in making purchasing decisions. (Who's to say that some posters on here are not, in fact, paid by manufacturers to advocate a particular model, e.g., Pioneer Kuros.) This process will winnow down the field to a few major contenders who will then control the market. At that point, the product will be more standardized (see, e.g., home computers) and I would be surprised to hear anyone say "well, nothing's perfect." We're just not there yet.

I agree with most of what you say here. I think I upset some of these HD enthusiasts here with my post which was not my intent.

"You did ask if it was you and Im seriously saying it is you!"

Well not exactly, but as I read this thread I'm getting more convinced that alot of what I'm reading is not a fair sampling of owner satisfaction. (They're here b/c they're having a problem, and the satisfied owner you don't hear from. At least I hope that's it.)

"You did ask if it was you and Im seriously saying it is you!"

Well not exactly, but as I read this thread I'm getting more convinced that alot of what I'm reading is not a fair sampling of owner satisfaction. (They're here b/c they're having a problem, and the satisfied owner you don't hear from. At least I hope that's it.)

There are lots of folks with problem-free sets. Take a look at the xbr4 thread. btw, the dim pq of plasma ain't gonna get any brighter when you get it home. ;) Plasma looked the same way to me and that's why I went with lcd. To each his own but I prefer the brighter screen. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Most of your truisms are basically "no-brainers" anyone would agree with, except for your moral which is untrue. Joe sixpack may well buy a POS and have to live with it, or have to mess with repairs/exchanges. I have a much better chance of avoiding that by learning first, or even waiting.

For chrissake, dude, where's that hostility coming from?! I'm just trying to encourage a self-proclaimed "discouraged HDTV researcher" to keep plugging along and to not "give up" because you will be rewarded in the end. I firmly believe that if you keep it up, you will eventually make the "right" decision for you, whether it be LCD, plasma, sony, sharp, pioneer, panasonic, or nothing.

If you want to come on this board and basically ask its members for words of encouragement, I would advise you not be a prick when they give them to you.

--Mav

Incidentally, I am not going to try to turn this into yet another lcd/plasma debate, but fwiw (and this is just my personal experience), I bought the Panny 58PZ700U after wrangling back and forth between it and the Sony 52XBR4 (if you look at my HT thread in my signature block, the reason for my consideration of an LCD will be aparent). In the store, the Panny seemed like it was going to be way too dim for the room. When I got it home, it's PLENTY bright and I still have another 1/3 of "headroom" on the overall "brightness" meter (which will never get used).

The moral of that little story (although, evidently, you're not fond of morals generally) is that you can't tell squat about how most sets will peform in your viewing environment by looking at them in the store. Do your research, go to the store to evaluate the non-environmental characteristics of the set, repeat a couple of times, then buy one from a store with a good return/exchange policy and give it a go.

Oh, and stop being such a defensive prick.

--Mav

For chrissake, dude, where's that hostility coming from?!

If you want to come on this board and basically ask its members for words of encouragement, I would advise you not be a prick when they give them to you.

Look who's talking. All I did was disagree with your "truisms" post (which I found to be quite frankly useless,) but did not in any way insult you. For this you call me a prick twice like an angry 12 year old.

Penngray said I had OCD and need "lots of drugs."

All of this for just having an opposing opinion. And I'm the one being hostile on this thread? Look in the mirror bud.

Wow, did this thread go south or what? You guys need to lighten up. From what I could tell the comment about OCD and drugs was meant to be humorous and that's how I took it.

Anyway here's the my moral about plasma and lcd as I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. A friend and I would go out and look at HDTV's. Standing side-by-side and looking at the same sets he would swear that plasma was better while I preferred lcd. He bought plasma. I bought lcd and we are both very happy. From what I learned in the forum, the bottom line is it has to look good to you no matter what the reviewers/users say.

I guess, but I'm thinking of just getting a good value in a PX 700 series Panna plasma if I pull the trigger. I couldn't tell a great difference in the 720p vs 1080p unless I got real close in the store. From several ft away in a 50 inch, I bet the difference would be very subtle.

I actually have a 2 yr old Panasonic which I enjoy every day with no regrets so I can understand your bang for the buck thinking.
As good as Panasonic is, if I were buying now.....a Kuro would be here.
Kuro's come in 720p and 1080p flavors, btw. :cool:

I just read the above post by Elemental and burst out laughing at "Forget about LCD and the others. Your prize awaits." I don't doubt your sincerety, and you're clearly self-confident, but there are very well-informed people who say just the opposite. I guess they are all wrong?

The reason I used the term white-washing above is that I can't think of another instance in which serious issues are raised as to a product's ability to perform even the basic functions for which it is intended (see HD Guru's brand-new resolution-test article), and then massive amounts of time and energy are spent by proponents to explain why those issues don't really matter. I don't think I've ever heard so often in the context of considering a major purchase the phrase "well nothing's perfect."

What is really going on is that the manufacturers and retailers believe that a majority of the population will replace their television sets within the next 10 years, and they are fighting it out now to see who will dominate that market when it really picks up steam. The strategy is to release beta ("well, nothing's perfect") versions of products and try to build loyalty among the early adopters to whom the later purchasers will look for help in making purchasing decisions. (Who's to say that some posters on here are not, in fact, paid by manufacturers to advocate a particular model, e.g., Pioneer Kuros.) This process will winnow down the field to a few major contenders who will then control the market. At that point, the product will be more standardized (see, e.g., home computers) and I would be surprised to hear anyone say "well, nothing's perfect." We're just not there yet.

Please save this BSing for the LCD community as the latest Sony XBR and Samsung series can't even take on my 2 yr old 720p plasma, let alone the King Kuro lineup from Pioneer.
Along with the many LCD defects, these LCD panels have so many flaws like color accuracy, motion blur...and oh my, even some reflective screens.
Move along now...don't be silly. :D
Now I'm the one laughing.

My last word on the subject: Never make a purchase if you are not convinced that you are going to get your money's worth.

Wait until the reports from CES in early Jan. 2008. There are supposed to be big improvements in a lot of the 2008 panels.

Take your time until you feel confident that you have found what you are looking for.

"Marry in haste, and Repent at leisure".


Please stop all the bickering and personal attacks. Why get so riled up about something so trivial as mere boxes of electronic components.

Mere boxes of electronic components?? If anyone here felt like that about their hobby/passion I doubt they would be here at all. What a silly statement to make on a site like this.

You are right. My mistake. Your box of electronic components contains mystical powers which cast a spell on you, and compel you to engage in passionate worship of them!

This thread reminds me of my friend who has a "sliding scale" for reviewing/rating restaurants.

Cheap diners usually score better with him than ritzy places because he finds cheap diners deliver better value for the price than most expensive restaurants (where his expectations are much higher).

I'll admit to owning two Westy's - an LVM37w1 and a LVM47w2.

Are they perfect? No. Nevertheless, I'm very, very happy with them - especially since they didn't break the bank.

IMO, certain programming benefits a great deal from flat-panel technology and HD broadcasting. After watching football games and ice hockey, in HD, on a widescreened flat-panel . . . well, I'd certainly never go back to watching on these sports on a "square box" again. These games are played "horizontally" and, thus, you get more of the live, being there experience. As a Rams season ticket holder (feel my pain) and an occasional hockey game attender, I think I know what "being there" feels like and - to me - the current technology replicates that feeling . . . even with the occassional pixelation.

The other thing is this: No way, no how would I have EVER watched some of the "nature programming" in SD on a square box. But with a flat panel, and - especially in HD - yep it captures my interest. Put it this way, you can't see bacteria without a microscope . . . the same goes for wide screen HD. For me at least - "nature programming" is waaaay more interesting when you can see, say, an entire tree frog from nose to tail AND his/her color is "true to life."

I think - too - that many more content providers are discovering this last point . . . that HD content isn't shouldn't necessarily be the same old SD programming only "sharpened up." Programs like "man vs. wild" and "survivorman" - I think - are much more compelling on widescreen (and in HD) because it makes you feel more like you are in the jungle, desert, etc. with them . . . much more so - imo - than a square box in SD. I think more content providers are becoming aware of this "experience" aspect of widescreen/HD viewing and - consequently - you'll see a "shift" towards more "immersive" type programming in lieu of "soundstage" sitcoms.

Finally, travel programming benefits a great deal from this current technology. I've done a good deal of travelling - especially in Europe. A Rick Steve's program in HD on a widescreen makes ME - at least - feel that I'm actually standing there live and in person . . . and some of these are places I've actually been.

MceSaint

Great comments, Greenland, I agree whole-heartedly.

The thing I don't get is the "hobby/passion" feeling toward what is basically a home appliance. That view might make sense if you were building an HDTV (remember the old Heath Kits?), but how is buying and owning a home appliance a hobby? Is this just an effect of seductive marketing?

Great comments, Greenland, I agree whole-heartedly.

The thing I don't get is the "hobby/passion" feeling toward what is basically a home appliance. That view might make sense if you were building an HDTV (remember the old Heath Kits?), but how is buying and owning a home appliance a hobby? Is this just an effect of seductive marketing?

I can understand the "hobby/passion" feeling regarding audio from visiting that part of the forum but didn't realize there was the same fervor about TV's. Anyway, why put down anyone's hobby/passion. Many people like furniture. Antiques anyone? I collect radios from different eras. Not really but you get my point. :p:D

Greenland, you're closing in on two thousand posts. How long have you been under this spell? I used to be a car nut, now I'm a TV nut. I like it and I enjoy talking about it and seeing others on this site sharing there knowledge. For sure including your opinions. It's supposed to be a technical site but bias often finds it's way into the mix at times. Usually in a good way. Nature of the beast.

Penngray said I had OCD and need "lots of drugs."

Sorry about the OCD but trust me, drugs are a good thing!! :D

You are right again. Once again, my mistake. I am the one who is under the spell of my box of electronics. O the anguish and doubt. Which Electronics Totem Tribe shall I joint; shall it be the Plasmaniacs or the LCDemons. Death to all agnostics.

Pardon me; I must answer the call to take up arms and do battle on another site where they just besmirched my noble toaster. Damn wide slotted Infidels.

LT9000

I do have to ask, what does your spouse think of this in-decision? What do you do when you watch TV or a movie at a friends or family's house?


btw, did I say 2007 plasma, LCD flat panels along, projectors and rear-projection systems are better then they have EVER BEEN in their whole history so its only simply opinion if someone thinks they suck. Its an opinion that a very small minority has. Heck only a small minority even talks about the flaws people argue about here.

So one more time, you asked if it was you? and the obvious answer is yes of course its you. The LCD/plasma worlds (who cares which one both are great) are doing very well and everything is great for the rest of us.

My last word on the subject: Never make a purchase if you are not convinced that you are going to get your money's worth.

Wait until the reports from CES in early Jan. 2008. There are supposed to be big improvements in a lot of the 2008 panels.

Take your time until you feel confident that you have found what you are looking for.

"Marry in haste, and Repent at leisure".


Please stop all the bickering and personal attacks. Why get so riled up about something so trivial as mere boxes of electronic components.

The best post of the thread!

I'm not sure when I'll jump in, but like you say, not until you feel it's the right time for you. This stuff is relatively expensive after all.

Now if only I knew what "CES" was I'd go read it.

CES Consumer Electronics Show. Las Vegas. Early January 2008. An annual event where all the major manufacturers demonstrate their upcoming displays. Panasonic, Hitachi, and Pioneer are supposed to introduce big break throughs in their 2008 line of Plasmas. Sony etc are expected to introduce exciting new LCD products. You will not be able to find any real specifics until after the holidays. After all, the manufacturers will not want to reveal what is in the pipeline that might result in depressing holiday sales of their currrent products.

My last word on the subject: Never make a purchase if you are not convinced that you are going to get your money's worth.

Wait until the reports from CES in early Jan. 2008. There are supposed to be big improvements in a lot of the 2008 panels.



greenland,

Do you have any insight that you can share about what improvements are likely coming and when the new products will be released? I'm very impressed with the Kuros, but the price tag is holding me back, especially on the 1080p model. I'm hoping Panny and Samsung plasmas, and maybe even LCD panels, will close the gap next year on performance. But how long will I have to wait?

Someone else said in another thread that all of this research, data and uncertainty is causing a giant headache, and I agree wholeheartedly!

CES Consumer Electronics Show. Las Vegas. Early January 2008.

Its less about the products and more about Vegas!! :D Its always a blast for me :D

greenland,

Do you have any insight that you can share about what improvements are likely coming and when the new products will be released? I'm very impressed with the Kuros, but the price tag is holding me back, especially on the 1080p model. I'm hoping Panny and Samsung plasmas, and maybe even LCD panels, will close the gap next year on performance. But how long will I have to wait?

Someone else said in another thread that all of this research, data and uncertainty is causing a giant headache, and I agree wholeheartedly!

Watch for the reports coming out of the CES in early January. Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi will be introducing new plasma panels using their new 10-lumen products. They are supposed to greatly increase the brightness levels, while not sacrificing any of the black levels, while using far less energy, and running much cooler. Reduction of manufacturing steps is supposed to also permit them to make sizable cuts in the MSRP of their products.

They are supposed to have made major break throughs in the R&D that they did jointly under their APDC alliance. http://www.advanced-pdp.jp/fpd/english.html

In the LCD display arena, there should be more manufacturers introducing better versions of the LED LCD panels than the Samsung 81 panels that just got introduced.

There will be a CES thread started once more specifics become available. Stay tuned. It is just three months away. I am looking forward to what will be shown. As for when the products will be on the market.' Too early to speculate, but I expect that the individual manufacturers will mostly likely follow pretty much the release calendar schedules in 2008 that they have in previous years.

LT9000: it's your money; if you're not comfortable spending it . . . if you don't think you'll get the enjoyment out of it . . . then you shouldn't buy now.

But, calling the current products "half-baked" is wide of the mark. The current technology is - imo - leaps and bounds better than the old technology - especially - for certain types of viewing. And these new displays don't weigh a ton like the RPTVs of old (I have a 27" JVC in the bedroom that two people can barely lift) or take up much space. This gives you flexibility on where you place your television - which is a plus for many people.

Like I said, good-sized, widescreen viewing of HD sports - especially football and hockey - cannot be be beat and you are depriving yourself of that greatly enhanced experience today in hopes of something better in the future. You are also missing out on some programming you don't currently watch because the format - SD on a box television - doesn't grab your attention . . . even with "drawbacks" of the current HD displays.

That's the "trade-off" your making. If your fine with that, then ok.

But, believe it or not there are those of us who are not ok with that trade-off.

What's that old saying? A bad day on the golf course, beats a great day in the office.

That's how I feel about the current technology - even with the occassional (and it's really occassional) pixelation, a an HD football game on my Westys beats the exact same football game in SD on my JVC.

I think that's all any of us "current technology" people are really saying.

Correction: my old JVC is a CRT . . . been a long day.

Like I said, good-sized, widescreen viewing of HD sports - especially football and hockey - cannot be be beat and you are depriving yourself of that greatly enhanced experience today in hopes of something better in the future. You are also missing out on some programming you don't currently watch because the format - SD on a box television - doesn't grab your attention . . . even with "drawbacks" of the current HD displays.


You are exactly right about this. I bought a 38" RCA CRT HDTV a few years ago and sports in particular are spectactular. It's not just the better picture, but also the wider field of vision. Movies are the same way. If you don't have an HDTV at all yet, then I'd either get a high end panel and just live with the fact that the same tech will be cheaper next year (all of us have had to live with that reality for computer purchases for years) or I would buy a cheap HDTV for now that you can move to a bedroom later when the technology has advanced to the point that you want to upgrade.

For me, my RCA fits the bill as the transition/future bedroom HDTV to hold me over until I buy a bigger panel for the great room. So, I think I'm going to wait because I'm anxious to see what CES will promise for the 2008 model year.

Watch for the reports coming out of the CES in early January. Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi will be introducing new plasma panels using their new 10-lumen products. They are supposed to greatly increase the brightness levels, while not sacrificing any of the black levels, while using far less energy, and running much cooler. Reduction of manufacturing steps is supposed to also permit them to make sizable cuts in the MSRP of their products.

I heard the same re: the great reduction in heat/power consumption. That alone may be worth waiting 3 or 4 months. If they get brighter as well - all the better.

"Like I said, good-sized, widescreen viewing of HD sports - especially football and hockey - cannot be be beat and you are depriving yourself of that greatly enhanced experience today in hopes of something better in the future."

"You are exactly right about this. I bought a 38" RCA CRT HDTV a few years ago and sports in particular are spectactular. It's not just the better picture, but also the wider field of vision."

Damn you sadistic bastards!!!

"Movies are the same way. If you don't have an HDTV at all yet, then I'd either get a high end panel and just live with the fact that the same tech will be cheaper next year (all of us have had to live with that reality for computer purchases for years) or I would buy a cheap HDTV for now that you can move to a bedroom later when the technology has advanced to the point that you want to upgrade.

For me, my RCA fits the bill as the transition/future bedroom HDTV to hold me over until I buy a bigger panel for the great room. So, I think I'm going to wait because I'm anxious to see what CES will promise for the 2008 model year."

I think that's exactly what I might do. Get one for now, and then when I upgrade - the old one can go to a family member or the bedroom.

There are also some companies checking nanotube backlights, which by themselves could reduce power consumption by as much as 2/3 and reduce manufacturing costs signifigantly. But oh, the HD that one would miss in those months weeks years that one might wait. Glad I jumped in 4 years ago.:D

I expect that the individual manufacturers will mostly likely follow pretty much the release calendar schedules in 2008 that they have in previous years.

And what might that schedule be Greenland? (Your best guess.)

And what might that schedule be Greenland? (Your best guess.)

Most 2008 models release dates will start as early as May 2008 and as late as November 2008. Many models hit showrooms the same time frame as new cars (August-October). That's why their model years are often confused with autos.:D