Hello Alimentall,

Please be kind enough to forward me details of the source of this particular test of the Manger driver. I always enjoy comparing the results of scientific analysis as well as swapping subjective opinions, debate is what advances knowledge.
I am It will be very interesting to chat with who ever has carried out the test. May I pose two simple "Yes" or "No" type questions as a little teaser to keep the debate going until we get the facts?
Do you think Audio Physics, Professor Joseph Manger, and Overkill Audio would have spent a total of 35 years and over $3.5 million US dollars in R&D to bring to market a driver that has "nearly 10% distortion across the bandwidth" ?
Assuming you and the majority of AVS members will answer no!
My Second question is:
Should we not qeuestion the validity of such a statement or even not make the statement until it has been independantly verified!"
Food for thought or meat for the mill...?!

Regarding pricing we offer tremendous value for money both on component quality and subjective performance comparisons. I am happy to make detailed and direct comparisons with any speakers or complete AV systems that you feel are appropriate.

All the best

Derek Wilson
Overkill Audio

I saw a measurement that was posted that showed the distortion spectrum of the Manger driver and it was very bad, as many vibrating panels are, with 5-10% distortion through much of its operating range. Of course, I saw measurements of a ribbon hybrid and it was also nearly 10% distortion across the board, but it was only $2000.

The problem that I saw with the Manger wasn't that it had distortion at either end of its spectrum, the distortion was endemic and unavoidable. Perhaps this is why Audio Physic dropped the Medea, so the answer to your question "would Audio Physic spend all that money on a bad driver?" the answer apparently is, yes, but they also apparently recognized their mistake.

Further, for DEQX applications, the Manger driver is probably about the worst possible choice. It doesn't take advantage of DEQX, nor can DEQX take advantage of it. The ideal driver would be pistonic in the bandwidth it is assigned with its distortion/dispersion issues nicely excised by the steep digital filters.

IMO, Overkill Audio gear is poorly founded, the only apparent outlet for a failed driver concept and is accompanied by the worst kind of hype and trite, car salesman-esque marketing. Of course, that isn't unusual, but busting into forums like that was, well, almost uniquely bad.

I saw a measurement that was posted that showed the distortion spectrum of the Manger driver and it was very bad, as many vibrating panels are, with 5-10% distortion through much of its operating range. Of course, I saw measurements of a ribbon hybrid and it was also nearly 10% distortion across the board, but it was only $2000.

The problem that I saw with the Manger wasn't that it had distortion at either end of its spectrum, the distortion was endemic and unavoidable. Perhaps this is why Audio Physic dropped the Medea, so the answer to your question "would Audio Physic spend all that money on a bad driver?" the answer apparently is, yes, but they also apparently recognized their mistake.

Further, for DEQX applications, the Manger driver is probably about the worst possible choice. It doesn't take advantage of DEQX, nor can DEQX take advantage of it. The ideal driver would be pistonic in the bandwidth it is assigned with its distortion/dispersion issues nicely excised by the steep digital filters.

IMO, Overkill Audio gear is poorly founded, the only apparent outlet for a failed driver concept and is accompanied by the worst kind of hype and trite, car salesman-esque marketing. Of course, that isn't unusual, but busting into forums like that was, well, almost uniquely bad.


well John I guess after your post that the name of their company should be renamed from Overkill Audio to "Killed Over Audio" based on the kindness of your post

John you've repeatedly dissed the Manger driver but failed to show the proof of this "10% distortion"

Hey, look, it's one thing to say "we have a unique product that should be auditioned", it's another thing to act like you just toppled off all the giants in the industry. So, maybe my post is equal and opposite reaction, but it's exactly how I think of it. I think Wilson products are overpriced, in the same way Bayer Aspirin is, but the market obviously supports it and there's some good engineering going on (despite some of my quibbles). I think Overkill is just off the charts "I've got a wacky theory that you should buy into" kinda stuff, but at least they're proud of it. I'd be interested in seeing measurements in Stereophile and Soundstage as that would reveal a lot, but I don't think you'll see that any time soon.

If you want to roast me for calling BS, go right ahead (though I find it hard to believe I'm the bad guy in this instance). Or maybe change out those X2s for a set of Overkills. I dare you :)

Seriously, the Manger driver is very high in THD and is unsuitable for truly high-end applications, not that this wouldn't stop anyone from buying it based on over the top marketing.

John you've repeatedly dissed the Manger driver but failed to show the proof of this "10% distortion"

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=190465

There was a couple of threads on it. Note that it showed 10%@ at 500Hz and 2kHz at 95dB. Someone posted the graph later, but I'm still looking.

Also, Tom Danley, a very respectable engineer and product designer also commented that while the Manger is very time/phase coherent and accurate over a wide range, it has very high THD. The irony here is that DEQX can easily fix time/phase/accuracy issues, but can't fix in-band THD, so they chose one of the worst possible drivers for their crossover.

Tom Danley is pretty well respected around these parts. I'd like to hear more of his thoughts on the Manger driver.

Hi Tim,

I noticed we were posting practically the same thing at the same time. I did see more of his thoughts if you search for "manger" under "tomservo". I think he respects it for some things it does well, but wasn't keen on its natural distortion levels, even at low SPL.

"I'd be interested in seeing measurements in Stereophile and Soundstage as that would reveal a lot, but I don't think you'll see that any time soon."

Oh you mean the same measurements you harshly criticized every chance you get? :confused:

Let me add, you only criticize them when they are not in your favor.

Ummmm, no, those are the only two I don't criticize, for one thing. I criticize Stereophile for having people that aren't terribly good listeners or writers. Besides, their measurements are almost always in my favor, Mike. :D

Ummmm, no, those are the only two I don't criticize, for one thing. I criticize Stereophile for having people that aren't terribly good listeners or writers. Besides, their measurements are almost always in my favor, Mike. :D



LMAO! You never cease to amaze me with your relentless trolling & bashing and your ability to do a 180 when....once again, when things are not in your favor, JOHN.

Sincerely
"Mike" :D

Hello Alimentall,

Why are you so aggressive towards me... or are you just playing hard to get!

I followed your link to the source of the distortion measurements and found our good friend KlausR and his reference grade equipment he lists below! Dont worry if you dont recognise the equipment it may not quite register on the AVS high end radar! KlausR is a lovely chap and well known in the Manger DIY world.
BUT... with the greatest of respect personally to him, I would not invest my money based on any comments by KlausR. Would you?
As to any other designers test results including Tom's they all are correct!
Ahh, got ya there !! Joking aside and again with respect to all these guys, DIY and commercial, here is the truth.
The Manger driver has never been able to produce life-like sound with low distortion WHEN IMPLEMENTED & TESTED WITH PASSIVE CROSSOVERS AND USED BELOW 300Hz!!!!!
All of these guys have been doing it wrong (yes including Audio Physics), we have done it right! Please read the full explanation on our website under the Prey document.
We achieve less than 0.5% distortion from 300Hz to 30kHz at the same 95dB @1M. We use IIR time and phase coherent filters (66dB to 96dB slopes) at 300Hz to 400Hz and can attain 118dB peaks at 1m in room!
Regarding the suitabilty of the DEQX.
We use some of the DEQX software as well as other DSP. The "sticking plaster" function (the time and phase driver correction) is worse than usless in our unique application. ie the DEQX measures and corrects (using time delay to make all the "broken pieces" fit together) all the gross time & phase distortions present in all multi driver cone dome ribbon pannel speakers.
We dont have that problem in the first place!
If it aint broke dont fix it and all that, or less (processing) is more, take your pick.
We do use the room EQ and some crossover DSP (shared function with another companies DSP)
We already have a perfectly naturaly time and phase coherent point source driver housed in an acoustically perfect shape! We have the Holy Grail of loudspeakers, please keep an open mind. After 100 years of scientific advances is it so surprising that someone has found a better way than cones & domes and passive crossovers in big boxes?
Regarding pistonic drivers... well I can only repeat, please read the Prey information sheets (and the Encore and Predator and go on the the Angels too you know you want to..) on our website. Hey even you agree with it all you might find a spelling mistake and then you can really have fun at our expense!
I appreciate your use of IMO regarding our products but I have one quetion.
How can you justify your ill informed sweeping dismisal & cruel comments when you have never heard any of our equipment or even taken the time to read the facts on our website? You even dismiss the carefully concidered opinions of 4 top internationaly respected reviewers!
Regarding my sales & marketing lierature, its all true! One of the reasons our flagship Finale system costs $55K (including installation & VIP set up!) and NOT $155K is that we dont spend $100K per month on advertising.
We rely on networking, recomendations, reviews, our website and God forbid Forums!!! Usually I am welcomed more warmly than you (Ali the agressive one as you are now affectionatly refered to!) have seen fit to do so.
Is this because I sent you a copy of my first post as a private email? I sent 20 private email copies and all the rest have been ok once they realised I ment no harm.
So after long debate we have decided you are right and we should close down the company. There just for a moment you went all gooey and smiled!!

All the best

Derek Wison
Overkill Audio.




THE "REFERENCE SYSTEM"as used by KlausR!

KlausR.'s 1st and 2nd System
Last Update: February 02, 2007 at 02:33:32 IP Address: 145.64.134.241
Amplifier: none
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): Funk MTX studio (balanced/unbalanced)
Speakers: 1st: Klein + Hummel O500C digital active studio monitors
2nd: Genelec 8020A

Sources:
CD Player/DAC: 1st: Tascam CDRW4U studio CD recorder
2nd: Philips Discman EXP2461
Turntable/Phono Stage: Michell Gyrodec Mk IV, SME 309, Shure V15VxMR / Rane PS1 phonostage
Other Source(s): Tascam MD 801-R studio Minidisc Recorder
Other Accessories/Room/Misc.:
Speaker Cables/Interconnects: Cordial CMK222 microphone cable, van den Hul Bay C5, stock Funk URM
Other (Power Conditioner, Racks etc.): none
Tweaks: none
Room Size (LxWxH): 8.6 m x 4.6 m x 2.5 m
Room Comments/Treatments: Ceiling is synthetic fabric under tension, absorption coeff. of about 0.8 between 60 and 4000 Hz
Music Preferences and Comments:
Music Used (Genre/Selections): Rock, Pop
System Goals/Comments: none
System Strengths: Hifi and hiWAF
System Weaknesses: none
Video/HT System: None
Other Interests/Hobbies/Occupation: Patent examiner

Why are you so aggressive towards me... or are you just playing hard to get!

Why are you so aggressively marketing against, I believe, AVS rules?

The Manger driver has never been able to produce life-like sound with low distortion WHEN IMPLEMENTED & TESTED WITH PASSIVE CROSSOVERS AND USED BELOW 300Hz!!!!!
All of these guys have been doing it wrong (yes including Audio Physics), we have done it right! Please read the full explanation on our website under the Prey document.

And how, pray tell, does that effect the high distortion above 300Hz?

We achieve less than 0.5% distortion from 300Hz to 30kHz at the same 95dB @1M. We use IIR time and phase coherent filters (66dB to 96dB slopes) at 300Hz to 400Hz and can attain 118dB peaks at 1m in room!

That is unlikely as this is difficult to do with good drivers. But if you submit the speakers to Soundstage, they could verify those numbers. I also trust Tom Danley more than a sales guy who is "overkill" in his assessment of his gear.

Regarding the suitabilty of the DEQX.
We use some of the DEQX software as well as other DSP. The "sticking plaster" function (the time and phase driver correction) is worse than usless in our unique application. ie the DEQX measures and corrects (using time delay to make all the "broken pieces" fit together) all the gross time & phase distortions present in all multi driver cone dome ribbon pannel speakers.
We dont have that problem in the first place!

I'd be curious to find out how DEQX fixes your THD problems. That's my point. Why you would use DEQX with those drivers is beyond me.

We already have a perfectly naturaly time and phase coherent point source driver housed in an acoustically perfect shape!

I'd argue about the "acoustically perfect shape" thing. There's no such thing, for one thing.

We have the Holy Grail of loudspeakers, please keep an open mind.

The holy grail of loudspeakers won't exist in our lifetime, possibly never. To use that term is simply reckless marketing.

After 100 years of scientific advances is it so surprising that someone has found a better way than cones & domes and passive crossovers in big boxes?

Yes.

Regarding pistonic drivers... well I can only repeat, please read the Prey information sheets (and the Encore and Predator and go on the the Angels too you know you want to..) on our website. Hey even you agree with it all you might find a spelling mistake and then you can really have fun at our expense!

I think they're full of a lot of BS, especially our sensitivity to time/phase. I also don't see how cutting out the LF will solve the Manger's distortion components at 2kHz, for example.

I appreciate your use of IMO regarding our products but I have one quetion.
How can you justify your ill informed sweeping dismisal & cruel comments when you have never heard any of our equipment or even taken the time to read the facts on our website? You even dismiss the carefully concidered opinions of 4 top internationaly respected reviewers!

I don't know, how can you justify your statements that you have the "holy grail" or are now "the contender" or whatever? Or your guerilla (and possibly gorilla) advertisements and active solicitations for sales? I don't think I'm being any more cruel than you are being brazen and rude. I regularly dismiss the opinions of reviewers. Most of them are biased, have poor hearing or have difficulty with intellectual honesty. And, yes, I read stuff about your products a year or two ago and was shocked by the BS. I normally wouldn't make anything of it, except for your uncouth marketing techniques. You're like a bull in a china store. I'm kind of surprised you weren't banned after the first post, actually.

Regarding my sales & marketing lierature, its all true! One of the reasons our flagship Finale system costs $55K (including installation & VIP set up!) and NOT $155K is that we dont spend $100K per month on advertising.
We rely on networking, recomendations, reviews, our website and God forbid Forums!!! Usually I am welcomed more warmly than you (Ali the agressive one as you are now affectionatly refered to!) have seen fit to do so.

Well, someone needs to call BS, might as well be me. I'm actually kind of surprised you weren't instantly roasted by everyone. Must be a quiet day. Maybe you should rely more on word of mouth from satisfied customers or actual internet buzz rather than making up your own?

Is this because I sent you a copy of my first post as a private email? I sent 20 private email copies and all the rest have been ok once they realised I ment no harm.

Nope.

So after long debate we have decided you are right and we should close down the company. There just for a moment you went all gooey and smiled!!

Well, I'd probably shut down the marketing department at least.

Well, I'd probably shut down the marketing department at least.

Oh gawd, not another b.s. opinion before you have ever heard the speaker.
Why don't you give it a rest and wait until you have heard the speaker? Then you can at least bash it with some first hand experience.:p

Like I'm ever going to see some of these floating around, let alone hear them!

Besides, my "opinion" is that the speakers a) don't make sense for a DEQX design and b) the marketing of them is rather obnoxious. I don't think that's all that controversial. I would be interested to hear them only because they use DEQX, just to see what DEQX can do for a really wacky driver.

John doesn't need to hear a speaker to determine how it sounds, he has magic powers and golden ears, he can tell how a speaker sounds just by reading specifications and measurements.

Thank you