Greetings,
I have been a lurker here on the AVS Ultra High End forum for a few months now and I've been thinking of what to contribute from the perspective of an audiophile / videophile. Well I think I've found the perfect icebreaker.

While at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest I saw and heard some pretty cool rooms but nothing could prepare me for what I heard in the Synergistic Research room. They had their Tesla cables on display and were showing a new AC line conditioner and a valve power supply for the Tesla cable's active shielding.

The line conditioner was based on a technology that runs AC through EM fields that they turned on and off while playing music. The effect when the line conditioner was on was that of a noticeably wider, deeper, and more expansive soundstage with a lowering of the noise floor and an increase in resolution and over all smoothness. When they turned it off the sound stage seemed to collapse, while low frequencies and highs seemed to roll off and the music sounded harder and more forward. This was quite noticeable and if this was not a trick, I believe it will turn the AV world on its ear. They also reported that when they plug a plasma screen into their line conditioner it is like "looking out a window on the world." Now I have played around with line conditioners but I've never heard one that lowered the noise floor AND increased my audio systems resolution and sound field. If this thing works as well on video as it did on audio (assuming they were not perpetuating some kind of hoax in the audio demonstration) then a storm is on the horizon because what I heard was unbelievable.

Now to the tube power supply for active shielding. This thing had two different tubes supplying 30 volts DC out-side-the-signal-path to the shields of their interconnects, speaker cable, and power cords. Both were vintage- one a 1945 Western Electric and the other a 1935 GE Tangar (or something like that). They played music with one tube delivering the DC voltage and then paused the track, switched to the other tube (the devise allowed you to switch between two tubes placing one tube on standby while the other tube glowed a purplish blue) and continued to play music with the opposite tube. I was amazed as both tubes rendered a different perspective on the recorded performance. On track after track I could clearly hear a substantial difference, and as they contrasted closely mic'd jazz to classical symphonies, I preferred the Western Electric with Jazz and the GE with classical. What I find interesting is that this was obvious to many who were listening and again if not a hoax, over time this is going to have a profound impact on many people’s high-end cable perspectives. What I find amazing is how a DC signal riding on the shield of a cable and outside the signal path can have such a profound effect.

I bring this to your attention as I believe this may prove once and for all that cables really can make a difference (something I have known and used for years to improve my systems).

John Franks

Speaking as a person who worked at a manufacturer for years, and did all the training... NEVER EVER TRUST A MANUFACTURER DEMO!!!

THey bring all the best magic smoke and fanciest mirrors to shows.

I am not saying that this box does nothing (i do think it though) but any demo at a trade show has been rigged in every way possible.

Try it at home with a stock box in your system, then lets chat.

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/index.php?PageID=51

I am not seeing any specs.

Welcome to the forum John!

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/index.php?PageID=51

I am not seeing any specs.

nor would you. is it necessary to beat that horse yet again? we all accept that conditioners (separate from surge protectors) do... "stuff" and many believe that it adds to their system.

SO stop beating the specs horse here. Jump all over the outlandish claims if you like... but enough with the specs.

Jump all over the outlandish claims if you like... but enough with the specs.

Hey I am ok with that.

John, I saw the same demo at CES, and I'll call you to task on every obervation that you saw. I'll cut and paste from my website article:

I was witness to one speaker cable demo though that deserves mentioning. They were in the same room as Bryston amplifiers (which are indeed well built) and a power conditioning/distribution unit shown below. I’ll leave out the name of the cable company since I don’t remember it anyways, and I don’t want to get sued..:)

The premise of the speaker cable was that based on some theory given by Nikolai Tesla many years ago, they were able to actively treat the speaker cable to have ZERO capacitance over it’s length. Furthermore, they were able (according to them) to switch their active treatment of the cable on and off, so you could hear the difference. Oohhhkaaay, I’ll buy into this theory for now. However, let me geek speak for a second: Every cable has capacitance, that’s the nature of cable. In theory, if you have too much capacitance in a cable, speaker, cablevision or line level, you WILL affect the sound or picture going through the cable. Too much capacitance, and you lose the high end frequency response (the treble in audio, the fine detail in video content).

However…. Most cables have such little capacitance that even 100’ of said ordinary cable will not affect the sound quality whatsoever. According to this rep from this cable treatment company however, the differences heard in the ‘before’ and ‘after’ the active treatment were profound.

The rep told the 6 or so in the room that he would play 45 seconds of a CD through the Bryston amps with the active treatment on, then he’d stop the CD, start it over with the switch in the ‘off’ position. Fair enough.

So I listen once again to some female singer that I’ve never heard of singing some piece of music that I’ve never heard before. It starts softy, then builds to the chorus. As the chorus starts, he pauses the CD, goes over to the amplifier and turns off a switch. After about 10 seconds, he turns the CD back on again, and the chorus starts. Well wait a sec. For the most part, the music with the active treatment was soft acoustic music, now he’s switching off the active treatment at the start of a loud passage. He didn’t start the CD over to replay what we’d already heard.

After he did this twice, I asked him why he didn’t turn the active treatment on and off on the fly, without stopping the CD. The rep tells me that there is a decay and rise time as the active treatment turns on and off. Well fine, but if the difference is that profound, should we not hear a change in frequency response or the soundstage as the unit is turned on or off? He didn’t answer.

After the demo, all other 5 guys in the room claim to have heard a difference… except me. I let the other guys leave before I told him that I didn’t hear a difference. He also told me that the speaker cable that they used had minimal capacitance to it in the first place, but changing it to have zero capacitance still made a difference, and he was sorry that I didn’t hear it. I guess I’m just a poor uneducated guy that can’t possibly have good hearing…

So I challenge what you heard and what they offered. I've also got a bridge I'd like to sell.. cheap!

(hey, nothing like putting up one post and getting attacked, huh? :D)

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/index.php?PageID=186

Acoustic Reference speaker cables combine one high current Tricon geometry with one high current Acoustic geometry with Quantum Tunneling and Zero Capactance Active Shielding for a unique blend of air and inner detail with mid-range bloom and low frequency weight.

Hold on "Quantum Tunneling"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunneling

http://phys.educ.ksu.edu/vqm/html/qtunneling.html

A little programm to play around with.

Curt,
I don't think you heard the same demo at CES in January as I heard at RMAF this October- Synergistic Research was demonstrating their new, as in not out yet, AC Power Conditioner and a new valve based power supply for active shielding. According to the guys from Synergistic Research, the line conditioner is in patent pending status and both are slated for release later this year.

I cannot wait to try them in my system. For the record I heard no such soft/loud trickery as you outline in your listening experience during my listening experience this past weekend.

John

Well if their cables had quantum tunneling everything they played could have ended up in the past. :D

Can you say new guy = TROLL.

Remarkably similar to the Stereophile blogs on this matter! Perhaps this is a coincidence. Why stop the music when doing the demo? Why not simply place a 'curtain' over the device that shields it and the tester from the listener's eyes, play some musical piece or for that matter relatively low level pink noise, and then toggle the device? Assuming the device doesn't hum or that the toggling is silent, then all the listeners would have to do is indicate when the device was 'on' or 'switched'.

[QUOTE=bluray Well if their cables had quantum tunneling everything they played could have ended up in the past.

Too Funny.
This is going to be one of those threads.

It may have been a different demo, but it all comes down to doing a double blind test. Again. That no one can agree on.

John, if you hear a difference, go ahead and buy them. After all, the good folks at Synergistics need to eat too, as I understand that active filtering also removes all fire and nutrients from their cables, but I'll remain a skeptic.

Curt,
Well we can agree to disagree on DBT'ing but I will let you know when I get some of the cables and the line conditioner hooked up- I am cautiously optimistic based on what I heard at the show with the key word being cautious.

On a different note I see you are a CRT man- I always wanted to go with a CRT before I got my Pioneer Plasma but I'm still thinking bigger- how do CRT's stack up today against more modern projectors? In particular I have my eye on a Runco that retails for around six grand give or take.

Thanks in advance,
John

I'm still waiting on the line conditioner and the Enigma tube power supply for active shielding however I do have the Tesla cables in my system RiGHT NOW and they are nothing short of spectacular.

As a side here's a link to at least one international audio reviewer who agrees with what I heard at RMAF- enjoy!

Prelude to the Tesla review:
http://sixmoons.com/audioreviews/synergistic/tesla.html

The Tesla review:
http://sixmoons.com/audioreviews/synergistic/tesla_2.html

A heads up on the Enigma power supply for Synergistic Research Active Shielding and yet another nail in the coffin of "all cables sound alike"

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2008/10708syn/

You mean like this nail?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

You mean like this nail?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

Michael,

I would have called that example more of a screw. Thing is, you can remove a screw a lot easier if you aint happy with the final result...but it still leaves a nasty hole :D :)

Michael,
Nothing is stated in your link as to how this test was performed however I have no doubt the differences were slight. I have been following the new Synergistic Research technology and have even purchased their active cables. I find them to to be completely different from other cables offering performance others fail to deliver. I think this has everything to do with the fact their cables are active and now with the Enigma tube power supply the differences are greater still.

If you have only seen ten brown dogs in your life do not assume ALL DOGS ARE BROWN.

ARe you up for a DBT test at your place of Synergistic cables vs Home Depot stuff?

Who're you working for Mr. Franks?

Good cables sound spectacular if the listening material sounds spectacular, and broken cables sound either like crap or not at all.

Fortunately, good "spectacular-capable" cables are not expensive.

I think Tesla would laugh heartily at what's being promoted in his name.

and broken cables sound either like crap or not at all.



I had one of those once. A broken connection at one spade lug.:p

More seriously though, other than putting in 26 gauge wire to run a bunch of 18" subs or being open, how can a cable be 'broken'?

I guess if the shield opens up on a line or mic level interconnect, it can sound bad?

One day I'll share the story of a local nighclub that had a 'microbiologist' taking care of the sound system. I got called in after a transformer blew on the outside of the building, and the biologist told the owner not to open up on a Friday night as 'there are power surges lurking in the building' that could take the sound system out'. :rolleyes:

the biologist told the owner not to open up on a Friday night as 'there are power surges lurking in the building' that could take the sound system out'. :rolleyes:

Do you call in an exorcism or an electrican for that?

Heh, yeah, that's pretty much why they called me. I went to high school with the DJ. Needless to say, we powered up and it all worked fine. They kicked him to the curb, and I did the sound in there for the next 8 months. Then someone else came in and told the owner that I had no idea what I was doing and so I got the boot.

Turns out that every sound contractor had taken care of that place, and rumor had it that they had spent over $1 mil in sound equipment. Their basement was full of BGW and old late 70s SAE amps with the large red LEDs on it. The club is gone now. Yes I asked about getting the old gear. No, they didn't want to get rid of it. Go figure.

Commodore?

i still don't see the point of a dbt. if someone "does" hear differences they will be scolded at and called a golden ear. and even if the objectivists actually hear a difference they will never say that they did as "science" doesn not prove differences in cables. so again, my question is.... what is the point?

That would be a classic "when did you stop beating your wife?" question. The flaw in your premise is this:if someone "does" hear differences they will be scolded at and called a golden ear.Actually, no, they will not. I'm all for a "golden ear" doing these tests. If one person can truly hear the difference between two speaker cables that we objectivists claim should be audibly identical---well, that means we are wrong, and we have to adjust our hypothesis. So if you know anyone out there with incredible hearing acuity, by all means, bring 'em on.

Now, I certainly would grant to you that we might not swing our opinion totally to the "most cables sound different to the average" side. We have ample evidence already that is not the case. But of course we'd have to concede something material if someone truly passed a DBT. Perhaps you're projecting onto us what subjectivists would do when faced with repeated DBT failures?

All we say is we would like to see some sort of PROOF that these things do ANYTHING.

That is it. Saying that you heard a difference means nothing. sorry, but your ears cannot be trusted if your eyes were involved. And as far as a manufacturer demo... forget it. i worked for one. show demos are full of ALL SORTS of magic smoke.

your ears cannot be trusted if your eyes were involved. And as far as a manufacturer demo... forget it. i worked for one. show demos are full of ALL SORTS of magic smoke.

Sorry Dizz I disagree with you 100%- just because you worked for a dishonest manufacturer, as you have stated over and over again, does not mean all companies share your/their business ethic. I have TESLA cables in my system and they're like nothing else i've owned. As to your SPECULATIONS, I have listened to the effect of the Enigma and PowerCell- both are AMAZING. Switching between the two tubes and turning the PowerCell on and off were as obvious as night and day, both at RMAF and again at CES.

I suppose a couple of guys could get together in a dark room, wearing masks, and take turns turning the line conditioner on and off while switching between the large tubes and have a gay 'ol time, but not me- thank you very much.

John

once again... blind tests have nothing to do with the lights being out.

And i did not say that manufacturers lie per say... just that demos are always rigged. no way around it. when you set things up, and you choose the content, you rig a demo.

And whether you accept it or not, unless you have done some sort of test with some sort of controls in place, there is no way you can state that there is a difference, but it is very likely there is not. if there was, it is real simple...

1. they would show the proof.
2. someone in the military or scientific community would use one to improve testing or something.
3. There would be some sort of science to show why it improves the power going into the amp/whatever.


That fact is it is one big placebo box more than likely.

It is a box that changes the LAWS of our physical universe with no proof... think about it.

once again... blind tests have nothing to do with the lights being out.

And i did not say that manufacturers lie per say... just that demos are always rigged. no way around it. when you set things up, and you choose the content, you rig a demo.

And whether you accept it or not, unless you have done some sort of test with some sort of controls in place, there is no way you can state that there is a difference, but it is very likely there is not. if there was, it is real simple...

1. they would show the proof.
2. someone in the military or scientific community would use one to improve testing or something.
3. There would be some sort of science to show why it improves the power going into the amp/whatever.


That fact is it is one big placebo box more than likely.

It is a box that changes the LAWS of our physical universe with no proof... think about it.

Dizz,
It is you and not I, who lacks understanding. Think about a generated electromagnetic field around a cable out side the signal path and it's likely effect on a signal passing through said cable. Is it not probable that an external EM field would have an effect on a cables internal signal and the signals interaction with the cable's dielectric- not to mention the probable effect the external stable (DC) electromagnetic field would have on an internal signal and its fluctuating electromagnetic fields, or how these fields effect the way signal passes through a conductor? Do you honestly believe this process, or ones much like it, are not being used elsewhere for just the reasons you state- "someone in the military or scientific community would use one (DC field) to improve testing or something". Careful.

John

I suppose a couple of guys could get together in a dark room, wearing masks, and take turns turning the line conditioner on and off while switching between the large tubes and have a gay 'ol time, but not me- thank you very much.

John
I believe you'll find a host of clubs where guys get together in dark rooms wearing masks. Look into some San Francisco clubs.

To be serious, in a situation such as John describes, provided that the listener can't see what's going on, there's no reason why the listener couldn't simply indicate the exact point when the switch is thrown. Assuming of course that the switching is silent. So, let's say that John does indeed hear a difference. That it's 100% valid. Then we could look for the answer which may be as trivial as determining whether the device alters the FR or simply adds harmonics to the signal.

BTW, does anyone know why Synergistic's phone # is also the same as...

LENDING NET
2182 DUPONT DR
IRVINE, CA
92612-1327
Phone: 949-476-0000

Heeere we go again. John, to call Dizz ignorant (or 'lacking in understanding'), is.... ignorant.

Forget about the big ticket bets that go nowhere on this forum, I'd throw $100 into the pot that if you did a DBT in your own home with your own equipment of the Synergistic cables vs generic 14 gauge zip cord, you would not be able to choose the esoteric cables more than 75% of the time.

Dizz is right, any demo of something like a cable where any benefit would be of a nonexistent/minimal nature, a public display or demo would need to be rigged to favor the manufacturer.

I smell a troll

Nah, he's legit, we just haven't converted him yet..;)

Well, do you smell a troll, or perhaps John Franks is the same person as the John Franks from Chord?

Dizz,
It is you and not I, who lacks understanding. Think about a generated electromagnetic field around a cable out side the signal path and it's likely effect on a signal passing through said cable. Is it not probable that an external EM field would have an effect on a cables internal signal and the signals interaction with the cable's dielectric- not to mention the probable effect the external stable (DC) electromagnetic field would have on an internal signal and its fluctuating electromagnetic fields, or how these fields effect the way signal passes through a conductor? Do you honestly believe this process, or ones much like it, are not being used elsewhere for just the reasons you state- "someone in the military or scientific community would use one (DC field) to improve testing or something". Careful.

John

No, I believe Dizz understands it quite well. What are you warning him "careful" about?

When a magician puts on a show, there are probably audience members who say to themselves, "Wow! He made a woman vanish and made a dove appear in his hand from nothing! How does he do that?" and there are those who say, "Wow! He made a woman appear to vanish and a dove seem to appear in his hand! How does he do that?"

I would fall into the latter category (as I'm sure Dizz, Chu Gai, jj, and others would); it doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy the show, though.

i do understand the principles involved in AC getting to a power supply then being converted to the DC needed to run the product.

While you talk about things that exist and can be demonstrated... the simple reality is that they DO NOT exist in any amounts to be AUDIBLE or really even MEASURABLE in their interference that could theoretically introduce to a power supply in an audio or video product.

And we know that these things are not taken seriously by anyone with scientific credentials. in order for something to be used in ANY research or "true high end application" the device must be understood. its charachteristics must be understood and its impact documented. otherwise i am throwing an unknown into an experiment... not such a good idea.

So while a guy at MIT may have one of these types of things in a lab to use when testing... we can be pretty sure he is not testing audio frequencies.

THis is what annoys me about people ranting and raving about things they apparently do not understand. they throw out esoteric principles that MAY be valid when we are talking about Radar frequencies and Milliamp currentflow and try to extend them to be totally valid in a freakin audio amp (or whatever). it just does not apply.

it is like taking airflow designs for stealth fighters and trying to apply them to my Saturn ION driving up the 85 freeway in San Jose during rush hour. while we could show in a wind tunnel that they do apply, the reality is that there is NO effect WHATSOEVER in the conditions that the car is used in.

So if you want to go on about how amazing one of these is, and how much it increases the tickling of your fancy when listening to tunes, either state that "i have no idea what it does, but it really SEEMS to improve the sound" or show SOMETHING... ANYTHING... let me say again... ANYTHING! that shows that it is some thing more than a big placebo box.

Morbius?

I thought this article was pretty interesting and kind of relevent to this conversation.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2008/01/14/4772578-ap.html

Duh! everybody knows that.

Seriously, that is part of the discussion.

Dizz,
It is you and not I, who lacks understanding.

um, ok.


Think about a generated electromagnetic field around a cable out side the signal path and it's likely effect on a signal passing through said cable.

A cylindrical conductor, such as a shield, does not have an internal magnetic field. This is a consequence of Maxwell's equation, specifically, the circular integration of current enclosed by the symmetrical loop surface. None.


Is it not probable that an external EM field would have an effect on a cables internal signal and the signals interaction with the cable's dielectric-...

Not it is not probable. When the agressor conductor is a cylinder, such as a shield, there is no internal EM field.. The electric field will be capable of setting up an electric gradient from the outer cylinder to the inner wires, and this can be used to limit the capacitive effect such shield would have on the inner wires, as well as the leakage. Called a guard circuit, it is used quite a bit for test systems requiring measurement of attoampere, femptoampere, and picoampere level currents. Guard technology becomes more difficult as the frequency goes up, as stability becomes an issue.

not to mention the probable effect the external stable (DC) electromagnetic field would have on an internal signal and its fluctuating electromagnetic fields, or how these fields effect the way signal passes through a conductor?

For room temperature conductors, this is not an issue. It is however, an issue for superconductors, as persistent currents within the superconductor will alter the Ic of the superconductor..the critical current.


Do you honestly believe this process, or ones much like it, are not being used elsewhere for just the reasons you state- "someone in the military or scientific community would use one (DC field) to improve testing or something". Careful.

John

As I said, guard circuits are used for very low level current measurements. But rarely are these things used when a simple high quality insulator is around the wire.

If you have links to military or scientific community uses where novel things are being claimed, I'd love to look at them.

Attached is the field profile of a shield. I ran it 45 minutes, so only one quadrant of the field is depicted. It is absolute intensity, scaler not vector..

Cheers, John

um, ok.

My point was that whatever miniscule amounts af field interuption there is, is so far below a threshold of what we are practically talking about that it is ridiculous.

My point was that whatever miniscule amounts af field interuption there is, is so far below a threshold of what we are practically talking about that it is ridiculous.


Um, Dizzman?

I did not know how to convey via words or smilies, the intent of my "um, ok".


His statement was that you lacked understanding....he then backed up that statement with "factoids" which I clearly point out are inconsistent with electromagnetic field theory..... My approach was not unlike that of one who yells "pull", then aims.

I cannot state with certainty that the "solution" to the "problem" which synergistic claims to solve does anything at all, either good or bad. However, I can with certainty, shoot down inconsistencies in E/M theory, which Mr Franks provided us with.

I did take exception, however, to the statement that you do not understand that which you posted...I did not see content in your post which was consistent with "lack of understanding".. The converse was indicated.

Cheers, John

web posting (end email, and IM, and...) can be such a beeyotch! :D

understood, i just wanted to convey that while i know a little bit about a lot, his post went deep into an area (whether correctly or not) that i had very little iunderstanding about, but my initial point of anything that MAY be there is so far below any audible threshold that discussion it in this context is ludicrous, still stood.

Like many of the cable discussions it seems...

No, I believe Dizz understands it quite well. What are you warning him "careful" about?

When a magician puts on a show, there are probably audience members who say to themselves, "Wow! He made a woman vanish and made a dove appear in his hand from nothing! How does he do that?" and there are those who say, "Wow! He made a woman appear to vanish and a dove seem to appear in his hand! How does he do that?"

I would fall into the latter category (as I'm sure Dizz, Chu Gai, jj, and others would); it doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy the show, though.

Well back in 1999 David Copperfield made me "dissappear" at Caesars Palace but I swore not to tell how. Honest truth he even autographed pic for me and the kids!

I performed a little "test" last night- my system is wired now completely with Synergistic Research Tesla cables with Active Shielding. This means the cables have a power supply. My wife helped me perform a one way "blind" test; this means she turned the line strip that has all the wall warts plugged into it on and off 30 times while I wore a night mask. I was able to tell 100% of the time when the cables were being powered, and when the DC bias was tuned off. The difference was as clear as night and day. With the cables powered the sound stage grew dramatically in all directions- front to back, vertically, horizontally, and front to back. There is also a distinct improvement in low frequency control and extension as well as improved clarity in the high frequencies.

As to how this occurs I am also certain that it has everything to do with electromagnetic fields generated by the DC bias on the shield of the cable- unless one of our industry "experts" can offer a more plausible explanation.

John

I smell a dbt get-together brewing..:)

Funny, this is the exact test I wanted Synergistic to do when I saw them at CES last year. THey refused to, saying that the effect was subtle and could not be detected if you turned on and off the AC adapter. Which was my point. Now you're saying the complete opposite.

I will continue to read with baited breath...

John, i do not doubt what you are hearing. not for a minute. but what you are hearing is not always what is actually going on. If this thing is so night and day, get your wife, or a friend to come in and listen. show them sighted what it sounds like with and without... then blindfold them and do thirty trials. get a random number generator off the web and use that to decide which one to choose next. or better yet do it abx. you should be able to do switches pretty fast. get an observer or two. there are loads of people here from LA. THEN, tell us the results.

However this is the problem with this whole area... the effort to do a real test with decent controls in place is pretty complex. And in most cases it will not really change anybodys mind. I will be the first to say that if a real test was done and you passed, i would be really interested in what might actually be going on.

However the reality is that you would not pass. you would have a result that is the same (statistically) as chance. If you stood a chance of passing, somebody somewhere on this planet somewhere at some time in recorded history would have passed one of these tests on any manner of exotic/esoteric products. It sounds somewhat defeatist for me to say that, but that is the reality. if anybody could point to a successful test, they would.

As to how this occurs I am also certain that it has everything to do with electromagnetic fields generated by the DC bias on the shield of the cable- unless one of our industry "experts" can offer a more plausible explanation.

John

I'm no industry "expert" but assuming this is a valid test (you flipped a coin 30x beforehand, you couldn't see or hear what your wife was doing or the tubes glowing, she rapidly toggled the switch so that even if the 2nd through 8th tests represented 'on', etc.) then perhaps the system doesn't work like it's been described. Rather, it does nothing more than embelish the original signal with harmonics leading to what you heard.

As to how this occurs I am also certain that it has everything to do with electromagnetic fields generated by the DC bias on the shield of the cable- unless one of our industry "experts" can offer a more plausible explanation.

John

You have the cart in front of the horse. You provide anecdotal accounts of the audibility of something, and ask others for a "more plausible explanation".

There is no electromagnetic field generated inside of the shield as a result of current.

You say bias...IOW, there is DC voltage applied to the shield with respect to the wires inside?

When it's off, the shield is not connected to the system. When it's on, the supply is providing a low impedance connection between the sheild and the inner wires.

Shield on....shield off.

I'd look there instead. Repeat after me...there is no electromagnetic field...there is only a static E-field, and a change in shield to signal impedance.

And here I thought the shield was actively driven..

Cheers, John

I heard the Tesla demo at the HE 2007 NY show. There was a clear difference when the active shielding was turned on and off - they were the same sections of the song. The thing is, I didn't think with the shielding off - that the sound was very good (diffuse and fuzzy). I posted my thoughts on another forum and was told the wires were new and not burned in by a dealer who posted. Still when my system swapping settles down I would like to audition a pair of thier speaker cables. I am currently using Cerious cables which use synthetic ceramics in a liquid to conduct, as opposed to metal.

They then must have changed the demo since CES 2007. THe demo there was flawed so that there was NO WAY to hear any difference whatsoever.

(mind you, that's just me, others in the room claimed there was a startling difference, just like the salesman told them to say).

So who knows that they are not switching active filters in and out of the circuit? Gawd knows the hocus pocus was thick and heavy in their demo room at CES.

commander Riker, you are FOS


"john franks" pick a different name on a board full of geeks.

commander Riker, you are FOS


"john franks" pick a different name on a board full of geeks.

Well now, that was a post chock full of practical and informative words... I guess one does what one can. Other than pom poms, do you have anything of value to add to the conversation?

I at least, have pointed out fatal flaws in the explanation that has been given, and have even proposed an explanation using actual physics detailing a possibility to explain what has been perceived as different.

You....nada.

Cheers, John

jneutron,
Perhaps you are confusing Synergistic Research's Active Shielding with battery cables from AudioQuest. Unlike AudioQuest whose cables only tie un-terminated conductors to the hot and cold anodes of a battery, Synergistic Research cables are powered in a closed circuit that draws current- this is why they have wall wart type transformers, not batteries as batteries would need constant recharging. I'm willing to bet the Active Shielding circuits in Tesla cables generate a relatively strong EM field in relation to their signal and ground conductors.

Again I attest to the dramatic effect Active Shielding has had on the sound of my system. When the interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords are powered with Active Shielding turned "on" my system is far more dynamic with better control of low frequencies, the sound stage is dramatically larger in all directions with a holographic sound stage like nothing I have ever heard before, and highs have more air and detail.

In short I have been an audiophile for nearly 20 years, I have top flight equipment and have owned state of the art electronics and speaker systems from Mark Levinson, Krell, Audio Research, Esoteric digital, Wilson Audio, B&W, Magnapan and so on. Everything I have tried has sounded "different" and in some cases components have sounded much better when paired with complimentary electronics and speakers. However I have never heard anything that transformed the experience of listening to a nice "stereo" into a "I am listening to live music in my home" experience the way Synergistic Research active cables have. If you have not tried Tesla cables you really have no idea what they can do for a high-end system. These cables are not just cables- they are active components that transfer phase and frequency information in a way passive cables do not; I am hearing for the first time what my system and its components are actually capable of. I guess some people here are just too cynical to experiment with a crazy idea like active cables. Thankfully this forum is not just for the jaded.

John

Cynicism has nothing to do with it.

When you claim to break the laws of this universe, and claim things that cannot happen, then i will call it skepticism. If there was any proof that they did something, then i and many others would be apt to give them more credibility.

the big disconnect comes from your refusal to accept that you cannot trust your ears, and that to do a test with any meaning takes some work. And without that test, your observations are fairly meaningless. i fully believe that you hear changes, i do not however believe that there are any. at least not the ones that you think you hear.

When sound improves... sound changes. if sound changes, then it can be measured. ergo, if these things make things so night and day better, then the difference can be measured. And if no difference has ever been measured (and lets face it... if there was ANY measurable difference {let alone audible} the manufacturer would be ALL OVER IT in order to use in marketing documentation) then we have to assume there is no difference. the claims of superiority must exist in the ether of vague ethereal airy fairy audiophile reviewer BS.


Thoughts?

jneutron,
Perhaps you are confusing Synergistic Research's Active Shielding with battery cables from AudioQuest. Unlike AudioQuest whose cables only tie un-terminated conductors to the hot and cold anodes of a battery, Synergistic Research cables are powered in a closed circuit that draws current- this is why they have wall wart type transformers, not batteries as batteries would need constant recharging. I'm willing to bet the Active Shielding circuits in Tesla cables generate a relatively strong EM field in relation to their signal and ground conductors.

I am not confusing any wire configurations from any manufacturer, in this you err.

I have stated, and repeat...a cylindrical shell of current does not have a magnetic field inside caused by the current, No matter what the current within the shield. You would lose your bet.

Again I attest to the dramatic effect......... I have been an audiophile for nearly 20 years, I have top flight equipment and have owned state of the art electronics and speaker systems from Mark Levinson, Krell, Audio Research, Esoteric digital, Wilson Audio, B&W, Magnapan and so on. Everything I have tried has sounded "different" and in some cases components have sounded much better when paired with complimentary electronics and speakers. However I have never heard anything that transformed the experience of listening to a nice "stereo" into a "I am listening to live music in my home" experience the way Synergistic Research active cables have......

Hmmm.. you are in need of a "calibration", as it were.... Please point out within this thread where I have discounted the possibility that you are hearing a difference. You will find I have not.

It is indeed plausible that connecting an overall shield to a low impedance supply will affect the e field shielding capabilities of that shield, as well as the effective shunt capacitance...and if the supply is an active one, it will have a frequency dependent impedance.

Understand that I have discussed only the physics. Not whether or not you hear a difference, nor whether or not you just think you hear one. That is your concern. Mine has been the physics.


If you have not tried Tesla cables you really have no idea what they can do for a high-end system. These cables are not just cables- they are active components that transfer phase and frequency information in a way passive cables do not; I am hearing for the first time what my system and its components are actually capable of. I guess some people here are just too cynical to experiment with a crazy idea like active cables. Thankfully this forum is not just for the jaded.

John

There are many things incorrect in the current understanding of cables, both in the make a difference camp, and in the don't make a difference camp. I do not take sides, but detail the errors which I see in both.

Another plausible statement was made by emailists; that the unpowered cables sounded horrible, turning the shield on fixed that. It is easily considered that a floating, unconnected shield simply degrades the system, turning on the supply reconnects it.

You may simply be keying in on the change for the better that the switch causes, and have not worried about the change bringing the system just up to "par".

Cheers, John

It is indeed plausible that connecting an overall shield to a low impedance supply will affect the e field shielding capabilities of that shield, as well as the effective shunt capacitance...and if the supply is an active one, it will have a frequency dependent impedance.

John,
Very interesting. The effects when the cables are turned on are a significant increase in dynamics, a much larger sound field, more detail, smoother overall sound, a lower noise floor, and a natural holographic "rounding" of images in the sound field as opposed to "flat" images like one sees in an old View Master viewer.

Your explanations as to how this works intrigue me. Perhaps you can shed light on the following. When the cable shields are turned off the system does not sound "horrible" merely ordinary. Before the Tesla cables I had cables that were far more expensive, traditionally shielded (the interconnects anyway. The speaker cables were unshielded) and they sounded much like other cables I’ve owned with the exception of more apparent detail and air, and greater system speed. They were in fact very good cables but they were also not fundamentally different from other cables I've owned. For example they did not have the holographic sound staging of my current Tesla cables nor were they as detailed, or as harmonically textured, or as extended in the low frequencies. Could it be that the active shielding of the cables has some technical explanation beyond my armchair speculations regarding EM fields?

Also at this time I have only the supplied wall wart power supplies. Can you think of any technical reason that switching from the standard solid state power supplies to the tube power supply for active shielding shown at CES could have an impact on sound? I know what I have heard and I trust my ears but find your clinical analysis refreshing.

BTW I was not suggesting that you discounted my subjective observations and am glad for technical explanations that shed light on this most curious phenomenon.

John

Honestly ... based on The Amazing Randi's challenge, there should be some VERY rich cable manufacturers. Wealth built from passing the double blind A/B ID testing, not from cable sales ;)

For some reason... the cash goes unclaimed?

BTW I was not suggesting that you discounted my subjective observations and am glad for technical explanations that shed light on this most curious phenomenon.
John

Ah, I apologize for my over-reaction.

John,
Very interesting. The effects when the cables are turned on are a significant increase in dynamics, a much larger sound field, more detail, smoother overall sound, a lower noise floor, and a natural holographic "rounding" of images in the sound field as opposed to "flat" images like one sees in an old View Master viewer.

Acoustic image reconstruction is of extreme interest to me, it's interesting to read the descriptors of others as there is really no common nomenclature in the science. It's so bad in the industry and academia in this regard, that I've had to resort to developing and advancing the science on my own. I give some hints and glimpses (as it were) to people on various audio sites in the hopes that it will get them to thinking.

And to think, it all started for me with skin effect.:confused:

Could it be that the active shielding of the cables has some technical explanation beyond my armchair speculations regarding EM fields?

If there is indeed a difference between shield power on and off, there is certainly a technical explanation. Your em speculation, as I've pointed out, does indeed have holes in it. That of course doesn't rule out an effect, just the explanation you suggested.

Can you think of any technical reason that switching from the standard solid state power supplies to the tube power supply for active shielding shown at CES could have an impact on sound? I know what I have heard and I trust my ears but find your clinical analysis refreshing.

There are significant fundamental differences between solid state and tubes, so it's easy to think that there would be a difference in impact.

To answer any technical question pertaining the the specific circuits, we'd have to know the detailed design, what the designer was trying to do, and a good understanding of what the hardware actually did (as opposed to what the designer thought it was doing.)

Cheers, John

You mean, you'd like to see the actual wiring diagram, right?

That would help.

You mean, you'd like to see the actual wiring diagram, right?

A functional diagram would be nice. If a schematic were given, I personally don't have the appropriate software available to model it. So I couldn't derive impedances, transfer function, phase shift...all the goodies that number crunchers like me would worry about.

Cheers, John

OTOH, if a schematic were given we might see something else.

OTOH, if a schematic were given we might see something else.

True enough..

Watch, the circuit is probably designed to add an orthogonal signal to the midrange band to add a dithering component for enhanced localization image capability (like the 901's did with the dihedral vector shifted reflections.)

Course, it could also be something complex..:eek:

Cheers, John

Well don't forget that Ted Denney III, the inventor, was a printer and I'm sure he read a lot of the stuff he printed and is privy to knowledge that you seemed to have miss John.

Well don't forget that Ted Denney III, the inventor, was a printer and I'm sure he read a lot of the stuff he printed and is privy to knowledge that you seemed to have miss John.


Ahhhh...a printer. That would explain a lot.

There are many Farside's and Dilbert's that I fear I have missed.

Cheers, John

No schematic but here's a verbal answer from the designer.

Hi Ted,

What's inside the Synergistic Research Enigma?

Inside the EnigmA you find three transformers- one linear to 1 Ghz for
> the interconnects and speaker wires, another for the AC power cords,
> and one for the tube heaters. You also find two solid state rectifiers
> one for powering the power cords and another for an alternate solid
> state section for the IC's and SC's. Lastly you find 4 Active DC
> biased filter caps. The EnigmA is the worlds first active device to
> use my patent pending Active capacitors.
>
> The PowerCell is available in three different configurations- one a 6
> outlet version and a 10 outlet version both with 20 amp IEC's. The
> last version, the PowerCell 10 UHC has 10 outlets with two 32 amp
> powercon connectors so its powered by two separate power cords. This
> last version has better low and mid-frequency performance and can even
> be connected to two different 20 amp dedicated circuits so you can
> power your system with 40 amps of current; this however is not
> necessary to realize it's higher performance. As to specialty AC
> duplexes, all three units use our 20 amp duplexes which are the
> highest performance duplexes I have found for the PowerCell. I tried
> several high cost duplexes in prototype however all colored the sound
> and masked detail and air without improving smoothness as the EM cell
> takes care of any grain or glare in the AC. No high cost options for
> duplexes will be offered and it is impossible to change the duplexes
> in any of the units without damaging the chassis and in the process voiding your warranty.
>
> Yours in music,
> Ted
Ya know, that sounds suspiciously like something Dilberts garbageman would say....:p


Sigh..that tells us squatzola. Might as well include a flux capacitor in that puppy.

He's not listed in the patentee index of www.uspto.gov either.

Hmmm...a transformer linear to a gig eh? I'd sure hate to have to verify that by test..

Thanks for the info.

Cheers, John

Hmmm...a transformer linear to a gig eh? I'd sure hate to have to verify that by test..


Ya beat me to it. As someone told me a long time ago: If you have an audio amplifier or speaker cable that's passing anything close to 1 Ghz, you have a lot of other problems with your stereo..:D

Ya beat me to it. As someone told me a long time ago: If you have an audio amplifier or speaker cable that's passing anything close to 1 Ghz, you have a lot of other problems with your stereo..:D

Bill Whitlock at Jensen Transformer would like to see it also. Their Video Isolation Transformer is limited to about 10MHz.
from his "Losing the Hum Bar" article

IOW, the designer won't tell you what's inside. ;)

Bill Whitlock at Jensen Transformer would like to see it also. Their Video Isolation Transformer is limited to about 10MHz.
from his "Losing the Hum Bar" article

pfft...Whitlock..pffft..

What does he know?? He's what, an engineer??..:p

Now, a printer...that's the cat's meow..

""There's never a printer around when ya needs one.""

""Clear the way....printer comin through!!""

Actually, Bergoz makes transformers capable of 1.75 Ghz operation, 200 pSec risetimes..(FCT-WB-082-20:1). Buuuut, the application is a tad shall we say..."different"?

Cheers, John

That's because it's

http://www.macuser.com/images/2006/11/stevesecret.jpg

Well, if you'd have told me a one-legged man could dance a convincing salsa, I wouldn't have believed you either. But after clicking on Chu Gai's link, my mind has been opened to the possibilities! :)

The guy rocks don't you think?