I am looking to replace my old Proceed PAV/PDSD audio video processor. I am using this in conjuntion with Mark Levinson amps, Thiel speakers, and Krell DVD player. Has anyone heard anything first hand of any audio video processors from these companies? By the way, I do not care about HDMI as I have my projector do the video switching and the the audio goes from my dvd player to processor by digital cable. I also need balanced outputs for all channels.

Thanks a lot.
Ken

I am a former Proceed AVP owner. I have a Theta CBIII with two Six Shooters now. I have first hand experience with all of the processors you name. All have a different sound. Mcintosh latest processor is a solid performer. A bit laid back in sound but some find this type of persentation good for movie sound tracks. The on-board pre-amp is above average for music and second to none with on-board analog bypasses. The Casablanac III is a bit more neutral. I do not feel the on-board pre-amp betters the MCintosh however and it is only two channel. The external Six Shooter, however, better all pre-pros for analog sources by a considerable margin. Classe did a very good job with the SSP600. It is very musical and an excellent all around performer. It's been a long time since I heard the Krell piece, too long for me to really comment. If you do not want to process the new formats then you can get a processor without HDMI and an analog bypass. With Theta you would have to buy the Six Shooter. The others have built in bypasses. If I were picking an all in one box solution, it would be the Classe piece. The HDMI issue however is unavoidable because of the superior sound quality of the new surroudn formats. Only about three companies really have working solutions now but none are on your list. No HD-DVD or Blu-ray players on the market now are really high-end pieces so you are limted if you go this route and use analog bypass.

Thank you for your detailed comments. I am basically buying the unit for movies as I really never listen to straight music anymore. I have been out of the market for a long time so I am not familiar with all of the newest terms and formats.

I did attempt to buy a Lexicon MC12 a couple of years ago. I broght a few dvd's to the store to audition them and I got no more than a minute into a dvd that I was very familiar with and I told the person I don't need to go any further. My Proceed blew it away. It really lacked a lot of the detail. Since then I haven't gotten off my butt to do anything as I didn't no where to start. Now my Proceed is having issues and I need to get a new unit.

When you say the Mcintosh is laid back, do you mean it lacks detail or it is not bright? Also how do you define neutral with the Theta. I know though that it is difficult to describe sound.

I basically am looking for something that sounds as good as I have now for movies, if not better, but do not need video switching.

Thanks again,
Ken

Thank you for your detailed comments. I am basically buying the unit for movies as I really never listen to straight music anymore. I have been out of the market for a long time so I am not familiar with all of the newest terms and formats.

I did attempt to buy a Lexicon MC12 a couple of years ago. I broght a few dvd's to the store to audition them and I got no more than a minute into a dvd that I was very familiar with and I told the person I don't need to go any further. My Proceed blew it away. It really lacked a lot of the detail. Since then I haven't gotten off my butt to do anything as I didn't no where to start. Now my Proceed is having issues and I need to get a new unit.

When you say the Mcintosh is laid back, do you mean it lacks detail or it is not bright? Also how do you define neutral with the Theta. I know though that it is difficult to describe sound.

I basically am looking for something that sounds as good as I have now for movies, if not better, but do not need video switching.

Thanks again,
Ken

The Mcintosh really does not lack any detail. It's a bit rolled off on the high end. The Theta is not but you have the option of using the shelf EQ to roll off the highs. Well if you are a bit rusty then you may not know how superior the new Dolby and DTS formats are to old Dolby Digital. With the high-end gear that you have you must get one of both formats! I do not have any first hand experience with the Halcro piece but the reviews and end user reports are great. If I were looking for what you describe, that is the one I would buy right now. Once you hear Dolby True-HD, you will absolutely want that capability at home. IF the Halcro can provide the best rendition of Dolby True HD tracks, then it would be the best solution right now.

Do a search at this 20K forum and you will find threads discussing in detail all of the surround processors you mention - including the Theta CB3 and Six Shooter which I have and love. Check the archives for the last year or two, too.

Wonderin' when the Lexicon surround processor luvers will chime in and tell you how you were hearing things and didn't do the demo right or you would have luved the Lex surround processor. I'm afraid in the demos I've had over the years my subjective opinion of Lex was the same as yours. HA! But there are a # of forum members who swear by the Lex and I'm sure they'll show up here swearing at me!!!@@

How many channels are you running - sides? rear cener surround? How many subs?

I am currently running the krell hts7.1 processor with thiel mcs1/klipsch RC64 centre and martinlogan front. Recently managed to listen briefly, Mcintosh mx136 , quiet impress with it that it carry a different sound compare to krell though i think both do a very decent job. The krell with me for more than a year and is pretty reliable. It carry very open detail sound esp. the high sometime can stand out depending on the speaker i use. some call this bright but is all subjective to individual preference. I THINK the mcintosh can give a warmer presentation that with HDMI it would be a good option. Big name like lexicon MC12 had always catch my attention previouly. The first time i listen to it in a dealer showroom before i get to listen to other and thought it gave quite a impactfull presentation. The last time i had a chance to listen to it in a show but not impress, may due to setup.

I currently own a Krell Showcase, but want better sound quality.
I have auditioned the Meridian 861 V4, CB III, Classè SSP600 and Cary Cinema 11.
Mcintosh, Halcro and the new Krell units are not readily avilable here in Norway :(
There is also the ML No40, but thats way out of my league with a price here in Norway at around $50.000!
My impressions this far is that for userfriendliness, sound and build quality the Casablanca III takes the first place. The meridian unit has sound quality very close to the CB III, but i think the build quality and the complicated setup lets the unit down.
The Classè is a fine unit with good sonics and extremly well equipped especially if you tend to use the unit in a multiroom system, lots of triggers etc.
Soundquality wise it`s not at the same level as Theta and Meridian.
My bigest surprise was the cinema 11. Extremly high value for money, very good soundquality and buildquality. The fact that the cinema 11 is an audio only processor is a neutral factor in my book.
The fact that Theta and Meridian has a modular design and already have proven themselves to be "future proof" is a important factor to me.
Lexicon is a brad i also like to listen to, but for now my rating would be like this:
1. Theta Casablanca III
2. Cary cinema 11 (due to the extremly good price/performance)
3. Meridian 861 V4
4. Classè SSP600

Thanks all. let me answer all on one reply.

I have a lot of homework to do. I "assume" that the new dolby and dtx formats are not out on all dvd's presently or are they? Can I listen to via coax digital cable directly from the dvd player to the processor, or only through hdmi?

In addition to the normal 5.1 channels, I also have two sides.

I am not sure if laid back is good or not. Sometimes bright can be described as detail etc. Depends on the person. I think with the Krell DVD player and Thiel speakers, this is a little on the forward sounded side, but not bad. For music I don't think it is the greatest, but for movies it sounds good.

The ML 40 is not for me as it is too expensive and also I wouldn't buy another ML product again as the company is too screwed up. Well it's noy Madrigal anymore but still.

The bottom line though is that I won't buy anything that I cannot hook up to my system at home first and listen to it. I have one store near me that I have done most of my business with and I can audition the Classe and Mcintosh at home. I really want to try the Theta so I need to see if I can somehow do that.

Ken

In addition to the normal 5.1 channels, I also have two sides.

Ken

Re the Theta CB3, as you have 7.1 channels:

If you want to go the analog multi-channel route for HD DVD and Blue Ray movies, you would need two Six Shooters (each one provides six channels).
If you got the CB3, rather than get two SS, you might want to wait for the upcoming upgrade which will do multi-channel audio over HDMI (though the upgrade will be at additional cost and the time frame still somewhat uncertain, probably one year or more out still). Or just get the CB3 without the SSs and let your HD DVD or Blue Ray player downsample out the coaxial or digital output to the CB3 (it will still sound real good to you).

I do not agree re: Meridian 861 v4 is difficult to configure as I have had one for a number of years and find it very user friendly...in terms of sound quality the only 1 I have compared it against is the Meridian MC-12B and, to that end, much prefer the Meridian 861 as I have bought one...

I do not agree re: Meridian 861 v4 is difficult to configure as I have had one for a number of years and find it very user friendly...in terms of sound quality the only 1 I have compared it against is the Meridian MC-12B and, to that end, much prefer the Meridian 861 as I have bought one...

You meant Lexicon MC-12B didn't you?

Do you require rs232 control?

Is the RS232 used for a universal remote such as a Crestron? I am using this.
Ken

I went to a store this afternoon where I am pretty friendly with the owner. He carries everything mentioned on this thread ecept for the Theta. He stopped carrying it two years ago as he said he gave up on them. He gave me a great deal on the ML40 on display but it is still out of the price range for me. That's a new Harley.

He said he would not sell me the Halcro as he has sold 4 so far and everyone has come back with issues and he has sent them back to Halcro. He said that after the ML40, it is pretty much a dead heat between the Mcintosh and the Classe.
Ken

I have a lot of homework to do. I "assume" that the new dolby and dtx formats are not out on all dvd's presently or are they? Can I listen to via coax digital cable directly from the dvd player to the processor, or only through hdmi?
Ken

No the new formats are not on standard DVD only HD-DVD and Blu-ray. I stuck to the list you gave for the most part. The Meridian 861 is a good selection as well. Yes you need HDMI to be able to send 5.1 channels of 24/96 or even 5.1 channels of 24/48 into the processor. The Halcro processor does not decode the formats. That is done inside the new high definintion players for now. Theta is going to be developing on-board decoding as will others of these new formats. Do not know when this will happen. HD-DVD player are now around 300.00 for the Toshiba A3. Here's a place to find out what's coming out http://www.movieweb.com/dvd/releases/hd/month.php . Yes the Theta is better than the Classe. However to use the new formats you either need a 5.1 analog bypass from the player or be able to send the signal into the pre-pro. I use two Six Shooter, Theta's robot controlled pre-amp to do 7.1 channels of analog bypass from a Panasonic player. I am using some "old tech" a Parasound Ex expander to get additional channels out of my Toshiba HD-DVD player. It is only 5.1 out analog and I get two, well really one matrixed channel out, of the EX expander. If you are only going to do Dolby Digital and not worry about the new formats for now, yes the Theta Casablanca III is a great choice. May be a good time to make a deal if you are not in a rush to use the new formats and want to enjoy Dolby Digital as some here are selling their units on audiogon. Then whenever Theta upgrades you can do it at that time but they may be at least a year away. I do not know. Of the processors on your list. the combination of Theta CBIII with it's analog bypass will better all of the others on your list. Not on your list is the Halcro which many seem to be extremely please with but again I have no first hand experience. I am certain the Xtreme dacs in the Theta Casablanca will better the older Burr-Brown 1702 dacs in your current unit.

I He said he would not sell me the Halcro as he has sold 4 so far and everyone has come back with issues and he has sent them back to Halcro. He said that after the ML40, it is pretty much a dead heat between the Mcintosh and the Classe.
Ken

The original review sample sent to The Perfect Vision was even defective. Some member have reported having to send back several units. I believe these issues are being solved or have been solved. I noted that the original review of the Halcro was not so great. When Halcro returned a second unit, it got rave reviews. No mention of what was actually wrong that would so effect the sound quality of the Halcro was ever given. I have a problem with that. Now with that said, many users here of the Halcro report excellent sonics. I would include it on my list to additon. I have no intention of switching as I am happy with my Theta and am sure it will kick ass when the new Dolby and DTS format boards are implemented. I intend to audition the Halcro peice in a few weeks as I like to hear everything out there. Your selection is going to depend upon how soon you want to "jump into" the new formats. You need to hear the sound quality. It is something that you will NOT be able to ignore. None of the surround processor companies will be able to ignore them either. HDMI still has some issues as well. This should be mentioned as well. I believe Theta has some major issues with jitter on HDMI and is working to reduce it via this connection. Theta is more of a perfectionist audiophile company and will not release anything with which they are unsatisfied with for sound quality.

Wonderin' when the Lexicon surround processor luvers will chime in and tell you how you were hearing things and didn't do the demo right or you would have luved the Lex surround processor. I'm afraid in the demos I've had over the years my subjective opinion of Lex was the same as yours. HA! But there are a # of forum members who swear by the Lex and I'm sure they'll show up here swearing at me!!!@@

Maybe not. Let's all try at least to take the high ground. Don't know how long the Bland can last not taking a shot at Theta:D. I am refraining from any comments on Lexicon. Tempted ya know but took the high ground:).

Maybe not. Let's all try at least to take the high ground. Don't know how long the Bland can last not taking a shot at Theta:D. I am refraining from any comments on Lexicon. Tempted ya know but took the high ground:).

I thought about it after I posted it, but I said it the way I heard it. It would be different if I parroted something that someone else said. I went into the audition WANTING to buy it.
Ken

You meant Lexicon MC-12B didn't you?

I do not agree re: Meridian 861 v4 is difficult to configure as I have had one for a number of years and find it very user friendly...in terms of sound quality the only 1 I have compared it against is the Meridian MC-12B and, to that end, much prefer the Meridian 861 as I have bought one...


Ooops...good catch in that "Meridian MC-12B" should read "Lexicon MC-12B".

I am going to see if I can audition the Casablanca 3 in my home. Please explain exactly what I need to take advantage of various audio formats. I am not interested in just music. I am referring to the current audio formats for DVD movies. Also what would I be looking at in terms of dollars for the configured unit? I need balanced outputs too.

Thanks,
Ken

The most important thing I can tell you is to make sure you have a Casablanca III with Superior II or Xtreme dacs. Hopefully you will be able to demo a unit with Xtreme dacs. The older Superior I dacs are just OK and will not better your Proceed unit . The prices vary greatly depending on configuration. If you buy a used unit, you will not have warranty. If you buy a used CBII and have it upgraded you will gain a warranty upon the upgrade. I purchased a dealer demo Casablana II and had it upgraded. Check audiogon for used prices. Check the Theta site for dealers in your area. The Casablanca III has all of the formats you will need for regular DVD. If you want to try the new HD-DVD or Blu-ray formats with their associated higher resolution audio, you will need the 6 channel analog bypass accessory, the Six Shooter until the upgrade to the CBIII allowing it to directly process a feed from one of these players with the new formats.

Is the RS232 used for a universal remote such as a Crestron? I am using this.
Ken

Yes. The Casablanca has RS232.

Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity do you think the MX-135 and the Classe 660 would sound better than the Proceed that I have?
Ken

When you finish your demos, please post back and give your impressions.

The most important thing I can tell you is to make sure you have a Casablanca III with Superior II or Xtreme dacs. Hopefully you will be able to demo a unit with Xtreme dacs. The older Superior I dacs are just OK and will not better your Proceed unit . The prices vary greatly depending on configuration. If you buy a used unit, you will not have warranty. If you buy a used CBII and have it upgraded you will gain a warranty upon the upgrade. I purchased a dealer demo Casablana II and had it upgraded. Check audiogon for used prices. Check the Theta site for dealers in your area. The Casablanca III has all of the formats you will need for regular DVD. If you want to try the new HD-DVD or Blu-ray formats with their associated higher resolution audio, you will need the 6 channel analog bypass accessory, the Six Shooter until the upgrade to the CBIII allowing it to directly process a feed from one of these players with the new formats.

Question....does the six shooter give the Gen 8 6 channels?.....or is that strictly limited and/or controlled by CB3? I have heard the Gen 8 sounds lower on 2 channel although i would like to be able to add channels...

Question....does the six shooter give the Gen 8 6 channels?.....or is that strictly limited and/or controlled by CB3? I have heard the Gen 8 sounds lower on 2 channel although i would like to be able to add channels...

Gen VIII is just a two channel dac. You would need three of them to do 6 channels. The Six shooter is controlled by the CB3. You would use it as a 6 channel pre-amp and have a fixed output from the Gen VIII dacs.

I spoke with Levinson and they are releasing a new pre pro but I couldn't nail down any features or price or anything for that matter......I gave a few suggestions as I feel sonically the #40 is heads and tails above all over pre pro mentioned here. and truly can double for an one of the best 2 channel pre amps for music only listening. My suggestion were utilize the LOGIC 7 chip have EQ capabilities and be able to process the new uncpmressed DVD audio formats.

Joey

Joey,

The HK audio system in the Range Rover sport has Logic 7. I'm not too sure whether HK components for home audio have it as well. Maybe Mark Levinson can utilize Logic 7 since all these companies fall under the umbrella of HSG.

It's interesting to know that ML are coming up with a new pre-pro. The No. 40 was for $30K. I sure as hell hope that the No. 50 is not $40k or so.

You would need your head examined to buy the new ML product. I presently owned ML amps for my HT and have the Proceed PAV/PDSD which was a madrigal product. Previously I have owned the ML, 36S, 37, 38S. I love their products. I even toyed around with buying the ML40 display unit last week at 35% off but it made no sense to buy something that will not be upgraded at the huge discounted price.

With all of that said, I would NEVER buy another product with an ML badge on it. I have been through to much crap with Harmen after madrigal went over. I would be willing to bet that the new ML40 or whatever they will call it will not sound as good as the current discontinued (Madrigal) #40. The new carnation will probably be a souped up Lexicon, and the ML name deserves better than that.
Ken

I would be willing to bet that the new ML40 or whatever they will call it will not sound as good as the current discontinued (Madrigal) #40.

Well, that is always a matter of opinion, right?


The new carnation will probably be a souped up Lexicon, and the ML name deserves better than that.
Ken

Nope, and yup.

;-)

I take back my head examined comment. I must have had a bad morning that day. :(

Yes, it was a matter of opinion.
Ken