HP is shipping the new HP Pavilion Elite m9000t Desktop RIGHT NOW with a HD DVD & Blu-Ray reader (and Blu-Ray writer!) all this with a hdmi video card. the high version of the 9000 is around $2000+
If HP can do it Apple should be able too! :mad:

If HP can do it Apple should be able too! :mad:Unfortunately, many of our calls for what Apple "should" do get lost in the murk of what Apple's strategic plan for HD is. I doubt that what HP is doing has any bearing on what Apple will do, and that could be a good thing. From the optical disk wars, to the battleground of HD downloads, Apple has yet to signify any direction it intends to take. Many of us here hope that Apple will provide some new direction that will resolve those long-standing issues.

The upcoming release of Leopard will set the stage for how Apple intends to move into the HD world. But the hardware and strategy it will use most likely won't be apparent right away. Will Leopard provide support for BD and/or HD-DVD disks? Patience.

It's easy to say "HP did it, why can't Apple." The reality is Microsoft did all the heavy lifting by including all the internal DRM and other crap the media industry demanded to get BlueRay and HD-DVD working on a computer. Apple has to do both the hardware and the software with a small fraction of the resources of Microsoft and HP combined.

wildrock Leopard is going to released in 6 days and yes it supports HD DVD and Blue-Ray(the Movie Player.app in Leopard now includes preferences for both HD DVD and Blu-ray) and still NO Blu-Ray or DVD HD player!

pkscout Apple is setting on billions of dollars of cash (richest US corp around in cash reserved) let them use a bit of this $ to make their product more in line with what the rest of the industry is offering...

wildrock Leopard is going to released in 6 days and yes it supports HD DVD and Blue-Ray(the Movie Player.app in Leopard now includes preferences for both HD DVD and Blu-ray) and still NO Blu-Ray or DVD HD player!Third party BD players have been available for the Mac for a while. But I've yet to hear of anyone running Leopard previews being able to play an AACS disk. DVD Player for Tiger has had HD preferences for quite a while, yet you can't play HD commercial disks. I don't know why you might think that DVD Player under Leopard is any different.

pkscout Apple is setting on billions of dollars of cash (richest US corp around in cash reserved) let them use a bit of this $ to make their product more in line with what the rest of the industry is offering...More likely Apple will spend its $$$ leading the industry in a new direction.

Sales of Blue-Ray and HD-DVD software and hardware has been sluggish at best*. If it gains momentum then Apple should support it, but that isn't the case at the moment. The biggest reason why Apple should not support BR or HD-DVD is that they have no foothold in the living room. BR and HD offer little or no benefits on laptops or desktop computers. Small screens are not the place for BR and HD-DVD media.

*I'm an owner of both.

If this were 1985 (or so) and the issue was an audio CD, then I think you would have a point. However, the forms of DRM that have been added to hd DVDs and the hd players is so terrible that I can understand why Apple is avoiding it and why Linux is struggling to find a way around it. It's understandable that we all want the best we can get. However, when there is such a high price to pay, perhaps it is better to wait.

I would prefer Apple deliver on a tightly integrated family room solution that provides easy legal DVD ripping ala Kaleidoscape, with great upscaling;

For HD, focus on a download solution that bypasses the spinner wars altogether.

ken

--before HD disks, how about we finally get the OS to pass through Surround sound formats!!-- 5 more days....

1080p, 5.1 to 7.1 lossless sound are the specs for BD and HD-DVD. Downloadable HD. Forget it. It will be a while before we all have 10 TB disks and 100 Mbit/sec links.

It will be a while before we all have 10 TB disks and 100 Mbit/sec links.Might happen before the optical disk wars are over.

I think Apple knows you can *make* the product.
If you want to sit back and enjoy it, move to another chair :-)

As for storage/burning, you can get external/Toast.
Also all the DRM can be a killer.

I think the direction that Apple intends to continue going in is they sell you the HD content via Itunes and you play it with AppleTV.
Hence, I don't see Apple in any hurry to add in HD DVD/BluRay capability. Just my .02
Maybe their business model will change, I hope it does because I think Apple would be the frontrunner to make the end-all be-all of livingroom appliances.

However, the forms of DRM that have been added to hd DVDs and the hd players is so terrible that I can understand why Apple is avoiding it and why Linux is struggling to find a way around it.

Well, Apple is a member of the Blu-Ray Disk Association and presumably had at least some input into the DRM on Blu-Ray disks.

As has been stated, the infrastructure is not ready for hi-def 1080p downloads. There is, what, 25GB of data on a movie HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disk? That's why they look so darn good.

Besides, the war seems to be drawing to a close with the availability of sub-$300 combo disk drives that play both formats.

Well, Apple is a member of the Blu-Ray Disk Association and presumably had at least some input into the DRM on Blu-Ray disks.

Perhaps, however, from what I have read, the discs are still loaded with DRM as well as the connection between the player and the display.

Besides, the war seems to be drawing to a close with the availability of sub-$300 combo disk drives that play both formats.

Dual format players don't end the war, they lengthen it. So long as both formats remain viable, the war will continue. However, as I wrote, it is the DRM that seems to me the big problem. Incompatible formats is just another reason to stay away.

i will bet apple is waiting on a clear winner.

Considering Apple's release OS release schedule, I'd be very surprised if Leopard doesn't support Blu-ray and HD DVD movies. They simply can't wait another two years to support them.

Also, with all the ties to the production industry you'd think it be more pressing. Needing a os version to support makes sense, no other reasons do.

As for why do you need HD DVD or Blu-ray on your computer, that's easy. Who wants to buy two versions of the same movie, one for the HT and one for the plane etc?

Considering Apple's release OS release schedule, I'd be very surprised if Leopard doesn't support Blu-ray and HD DVD movies. They simply can't wait another two years to support them.Yes, Leopard may well support one or the other or both. But will Apple reveal that support at launch? First they said they had "secrets" yet to reveal. Then they said that all has been revealed. Is there another secret lurking under the hood? MoviePlayer.app, perchance? Or must we wait until Apple's year of HD finally kicks in three years late at MacWOrld 2008, where Jobs will announce appleTV 2.0 as its solution to the great HD conundrum?

Also, with all the ties to the production industry you'd think it be more pressing. Needing a os version to support makes sense, no other reasons do.DRM'd playback is not needed in the production industry. High cap archival formats would be nice, and we've been given that already by Toast's support for Blu-Ray drives on Mac. Will Finder disc burning gain BD support for data?

As for why do you need HD DVD or Blu-ray on your computer, that's easy. Who wants to buy two versions of the same movie, one for the HT and one for the plane etc?Do you want to play the same disc material on both? How are you going to downsample the 1080p to play on your iPod Touch or iPhone on the plane? Or do you mean playing on the plane on a laptop? In which case 720p would be fine.

If Apple only supports one format, what does that say to the other side's studios? And how will that affect their willingness to work with Apple for iTunes Store downloads--SD or HD movies?

This is all such a mess. I doubt that Apple will reveal anything in Leopard until it is ready to roll out its solutions in full fanfare. I think that those who have expectations for Leopard gifts in the form of HD anything at launch may be sorely disappointed. But I would love to be proved wrong.

Again for me it comes down to the fact that there is this great new video standard (is there a better way to watch movie today?...NO!) that standard is available in 2 flavors and both (Blu-Ray & HD DVD) are available NOW with dozens of new and classic movies released every months.
And call me selfish but I don't care if middle America has not taste right now, there will be nothing better for a loooooong time (downloading HD are you kidding?!)
So both (or at least one) should be made available NOW by Apple, if they want to charge me some extra $ for it fine but don't come tell me that this is not "good for me" because there is a DRM or a Format "war" problem (I don't see Windows, HP or Sony having problems)
All are offering it right now so there is no reason why I should not have the option for it under OSX! (again it's fine if I have to pay extra for it)

Well, Apple is a member of the Blu-Ray Disk Association and presumably had at least some input into the DRM on Blu-Ray disks.

As has been stated, the infrastructure is not ready for hi-def 1080p downloads. There is, what, 25GB of data on a movie HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disk? That's why they look so darn good.

Besides, the war seems to be drawing to a close with the availability of sub-$300 combo disk drives that play both formats.
Link for the sub-$300 combo players please.

So far as the DRM (and Apple is format neutral for now -- they are a member of the DVD Forum as well) it is strictly being shoved down the throats of the tech
companies by the studios.

Lastly, I suspect that HD downloads, when they arrive, will be much smaller than 25GB -- like maybe 2.5 ~ 5GB. They will likely be 720P H.264 with DD5.1 at best. You can squeeze that into a very small file. Yes, it will be noticeably lower quality than BD/HD when viewed on a top of the line rig, but most people owning such a beast won't consider downloads anyway. Joe iTunes user will be very happy.

And call me selfish but I don't care if middle America has not taste right now, there will be nothing better for a loooooong time (downloading HD are you kidding?!)

I think the main obstacle to HD downloads are the studios playing ball -- not anything technical.

So far as who doesn't have taste for HD/BD -- "middle America" ain't the culprit here. I work in a NYC office full of gadget happy techies. There are 10+ iPhone owners on my floor alone. When DVD players were $400+ in 1998 dollars we were all getting them along with 5.1 audio.

Now, not a single co-worker has bought a BD/HD rig. Same with my flesh and blood movie buff friends -- not a single person I talked to at the just concluded New York Film Festival has BD/HD. Sorry adl, but BD/HD is a tiny, tiny niche right now.

LG combo drives are not quite in the retail channel, but getting close. Guess their first shipment sold out, but they are getting another. I imagine Newegg will have the drives for $250 when the retail channel fills up in the US:

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=26553&vpn=GGC-H20N/L&manfuacture=LG%20Electronics


By the way, I've noticed some of the newly-released HD-DVD's come with hi-def on one side of the disk, and a 'regular' DVD resolution on the other.

Ted, try watching the BBC production of Planet Earth on HD-DVD (avalable on Amazon). It is absolutely stunning and will make you a convert if anything will.

http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Earth-Complete-BBC-DVD/dp/B000MRAAJW

And Ted, my anecdotal evidence differs from yours....I have dozens of colleagues who now have stand-alone players....bought specifically to watch the above referenced series.

Ted, try watching the BBC production of Planet Earth on HD-DVD (avalable on Amazon). It is absolutely stunning and will make you a convert if anything will.

http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Earth-Complete-BBC-DVD/dp/B000MRAAJW

And Ted, my anecdotal evidence differs from yours....I have dozens of colleagues who now have stand-alone players....bought specifically to watch the above referenced series.I don't think the issue here is that we want or appreciate what BD/HD has to offer. We all would love to have access to prime 1080p content. I watched the Planet Earth series on cable HD, and even at 1080i, it was stunning. And like your friends have done, it was almost enough to make me want to go out and get a stand alone BD player.

But in my community, and I run with the high tech crowd and video producers and Mac heads in a small rural city, almost none of them have stand alone players. A small minority of wealthy videophiles make up the vast majority of BD/HDDVD purchasers here. 99% of the rest of the people in this community haven't a clue about HD. You can't rent an HD disk in a local DVD shop. Target and BestBuy aren't pushing the disks and stocking good collections because few are buying the players. Here, people plug there big screens into SD cable, and watch DVDs from old DVD players connected via composite. "Upscaling" equates high def to them, because the local sales guy at BB knows he doesn't have the time to explain HD to them, or that he thinks they are too dumb to really understand it.

People in the know either have enough money that they don't care about platform or format wars, disk redundancy,etc. and just get what they want, or they are waiting for the BD/HDDVD battle to get resolved--or another solution coming along and superseding them--or a good online download strategy evolves. Till then, we get along with cable or satellite HD (or both).

Give me a good affordable, single solution of access to a complete library of available 1080p with TrueHD, and all the rest goes by the wayside. That's what I hope for from Apple in the future. Will I get it? Who knows. I've spent enough futile time in front of Apple's wailing wall to demand it. But the HD landscape will be a lot different in 10 years than it is today. And whoever provides the best solution will be a rich, rich company. I'm sure Apple would love to be there. And they have as good or better chance than any other to do so.

Dual format players don't end the war, they lengthen it. So long as both formats remain viable, the war will continue. However, as I wrote, it is the DRM that seems to me the big problem. Incompatible formats is just another reason to stay away.

Depends on what perspective you look from. Dual Format players effectively end the war for the consumer. The studios are still stuck with the conundrum and costs of supporting two media types but that's their fault as they helped get us into this situation in the first place. When I buy a Universal format most likely next year the War is effectively over for me.

Considering Apple's release OS release schedule, I'd be very surprised if Leopard doesn't support Blu-ray and HD DVD movies. They simply can't wait another two years to support them.


Leopard does not contain the HDCP/AACS/BD+ support it needs for HD DVD and Blu-ray movie playback. Perhaps a future release will enable them but seeing as how Apple had to delay Leopard for 4 months I doubt they are interested in the work required to embedd DRM support throughtout their OS. Microsoft is because VC-1 is their baby and they will eventually get paid somehow. Apple wants to lead with iTunes HD downloads. I wouldn't be surprised to see no HD optical support in Leopard a year from this date. The numbers simply don't justify it yet. Apple's very own authoring tools don't fully support HD DVD and there's no out of box support for Blu-ray.

Depends on what perspective you look from. Dual Format players effectively end the war for the consumer. The studios are still stuck with the conundrum and costs of supporting two media types but that's their fault as they helped get us into this situation in the first place. When I buy a Universal format most likely next year the War is effectively over for me.

I think dual format players can end the war for certain individuals , but not in general. Unless ALL players are dual format, so the consumer doesn't have to know the difference maybe; but that won't ever happen IMO...


Leopard does not contain the HDCP/AACS/BD+ support it needs for HD DVD and Blu-ray movie playback. Perhaps a future release will enable them but seeing as how Apple had to delay Leopard for 4 months I doubt they are interested in the work required to embedd DRM support throughtout their OS. Microsoft is because VC-1 is their baby and they will eventually get paid somehow. Apple wants to lead with iTunes HD downloads. I wouldn't be surprised to see no HD optical support in Leopard a year from this date. The numbers simply don't justify it yet. Apple's very own authoring tools don't fully support HD DVD and there's no out of box support for Blu-ray.

I agree - numbers are just too small to warrant the efort from Apple right now. They will stick to the occasional iTunes HD download...

ken

Depends on what perspective you look from. Dual Format players effectively end the war for the consumer. The studios are still stuck with the conundrum and costs of supporting two media types but that's their fault as they helped get us into this situation in the first place. When I buy a Universal format most likely next year the War is effectively over for me.

As long as consumers buy both formats, they will continue to exist. I have read that several studios have chosen to make only one format, so the extra cost does not exist for them and they can continue earning money with the one format they have chosen.

It is also possible that a third format (didn't the Chinese develop one?) may be chosen to avoid the embarrassment of choosing one of the two current formats. If this happens, then consumers with a dual format player will also lose.

It's ironic that these format wars usually everyone loses except the one company that made the winning format. Yet, the industry continues making these wars.

I have read that several studios have chosen to make only one format, so the extra cost does not exist for them and they can continue earning money with the one format they have chosen.

Not to mention that both formats use common codecs so 95% of their investment and time is not wasted. The only risk is with inventory and developing tools to create menus and extras.

It is also possible that a third format (didn't the Chinese develop one?) may be chosen to avoid the embarrassment of choosing one of the two current formats.

This format is DOA (in the western world). It offers no benefits over HD-DVD in that they're both red laser based.

Leopard does not contain the HDCP/AACS/BD+ support it needs for HD DVD and Blu-ray movie playback.

Wow, you sound very confident, maybe you'll share why you have so much confidence in this statement. I haven't heard of Apple making such a statement and no one else seems to know either.

Do you want to play the same disc material on both? How are you going to downsample the 1080p to play on your iPod Touch or iPhone on the plane? Or do you mean playing on the plane on a laptop? In which case 720p would be fine.


I want to buy one disc that I can play in my HT and take with me on a plane to watch on my MBP. It would be nice if there was a iPhone/iPod version included on the disc, like Fox is doing with Die Hard, but I'm not holding my breath considering the relationship Apple has with the studios.

Wow, you sound very confident, maybe you'll share why you have so much confidence in this statement. I haven't heard of Apple making such a statement and no one else seems to know either.

The contents and feature set of Leopard isn't exactly an unknown. You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect to find features that have never been mentioned by Apple. Do you not think that BR or HD-DVD support would have been worth a mention on Apple's '300 Leopard Features' page on the website?

When 6pm rolls around and Leopard is available for all who want a copy, don't show up on this forum with posts about features that were never promised and how Apple has failed by not providing those features. That may sound harsh, but it happens after each product release and announcement and it's more than a little annoying.

The contents and feature set of Leopard isn't exactly an unknown. You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect to find features that have never been mentioned by Apple. Do you not think that BR or HD-DVD support would have been worth a mention on Apple's '300 Leopard Features' page on the website?

When 6pm rolls around and Leopard is available for all who want a copy, don't show up on this forum with posts about features that were never promised and how Apple has failed by not providing those features. That may sound harsh, but it happens after each product release and announcement and it's more than a little annoying.I think that what some of us are getting at is not that the BR and HD DVD may be included in Leopard as a "feature." But as an underlying technology that can be revealed by the proper software at a later date, when Apple is ready to unveil its grander HD scheme. So HD support may not be readily apparent in the shipping Leopard version.

I don't expect to see any signs of BD and/or HD DVD support in Leopard. It only makes sense that Apple withhold optical disk support until it has its iTunes HD strategy fully underway. If Apple were to make HD opticals available on, say the Mac Mini, why would anyone buy iTunes downloads that are obviously inferior? Even if Apple were to up the resolution to 720p. The only way I see Apple introducing BR and HD DVD support is if it can offer a 720p movie rental option for an affordable price--say $3.99, with the ability to play it for 30 days on the devices of your choice (similar to iTunes' 5 authorized computers/devices).

As Ben alludes to above, why in the world would anyone want to buy an inferior HD download, if the price is similar to an optical disk they already own? Let's see, 1080p disk with all of the added bonus material, and language options, etc. Or a single 720p file that may/may not even have DD?

If Apple were to offer BR/HD DVD support with the Leopard launch, it would take the steam out of its iTunes HD strategy. So I think that, unfortunately, we will have to wait until iTunes evolves. Then the question becomes one of how will Apple solve the DRM/OS issue, and does Leopard have the HD framework built in (but unrevealed), or can it be added later. Or will Apple come up with a purely software app sandboxed solution that solves the encrypted/protected (HDCP) pathway morass without having to hack the OS like Windows does?

Or lastly, is the appleTV really Apple's final word in HD? Plop an optical drive in it, let it take one-click HD downloads from the iTS, and then the question becomes one of "why support BR/HD DVD on the Mac at all?" Except for people like Ben who want to watch their already acquired BR/HD DVD disks on their laptops, this becomes a moot question.

Only time will tell.

This format is DOA (in the western world). It offers no benefits over HD-DVD in that they're both red laser based.
HD-DVD is blue laser, not red laser.

Also -- thank you Wildrock for eloquently answering on my behalf.

Or will Apple come up with a purely software app sandboxed solution that solves the encrypted/protected (HDCP) pathway morass without having to hack the OS like Windows does?

No. The reason Windows is "hacked" is that the data path from the drive to the display must be encrypted, 100%, all the way, not sandboxes, not tom foolery, not magic. It's a software and hardware solution and nothing Apple is going to do is going to solve that issue with existing hardware.