Just today I read the new Best Buy ad...they have a two page spread of HD, Blu and SD DVD stuff...that's all well and good.

However, like many other ad's out there, they show a set of pricey HDM machine and movies, and an inch from the ad for the HDM machine they list 1,2, maybe 3 SD DVD players usually with the taglines "1080P Upconverting DVD player that makes you standard DVD's look like HD"....and the price...$89 after rebate...

Oh and prior to that page there are no fewer than one or two pages LOADED with older and recent release SD DVD's selling for $4.99...or $6.99..or maybe even 5 for $20....

So what do you think the average consumer on a budget who needs a new player will do...? Yup, odds are his significant other will probably say..."Honey that $89 Panasonic will be fine for what we need."


How is HDM supposed the reach the masses like many are predicting (or hoping) when they (avg shopper) are being fed HUGE HUGE movie and player bargains in almost every Sunday paper ad...especially now that we are a month from the opening of the holiday shopping season.

If BB, CC, Ultimate Electronics etc. wants to really stoke the fires, they all need to have HDM only multiple page ad's every week during the holiday season.

If the current technique continues throughout the remainder of the hot selling season, HDM will be at strike three for the holiday's and I doubt they could recover...it will all slowly decline and go the way of the Minidisc, DVD-A or whatever "greatest" gadget came and went back in the day.

Of course the MAIN way to fix all this is to have ONE machine (HD or Blu) and ALL studios support that machine...and of course the movies need to drop close to the pricing levels/bundles that we see every single week in the Sunday ad's.

IMO the two formats can't sit idley(sp) by getting few sales for another year or two ...at some point manufacturers and or studios will say "Ya know what, America has spoken, they like their SD DVD and we're cool with that..lets back off the whole HDM thing...not worth all the costs involved..."

So what do you think the average consumer on a budget who needs a new player will do...? Yup, odds are his significant other will probably say..."Honey that $89 Panasonic will be fine for what we need."


Yep, give the general public a cheaper substitute, and it doesn't have to be better, or even as good. They'll FIND a way to justify the purchase over the better option. Upscaling players are a siginificant hurdle to mass adoption... not so much because of what they offer, but because of how they're presented to the public. They're not HD players and shouldn't be presented as such.

But in all honesty, I'm not really worried about the people who would be eager to settle for an $89 upscaling player. Quality isn't their big concern. I'm worried about the people that are willing to drop $200, $300, or more, and can't get the information they need about HDM. For everyone looking at the HD players, how many think that HD-DVD is a variant of SD-DVD? How many realize that the two formats are incompatible? How many think that all studios support both formats?

I'm not blaming these people for being ignorant of HDM, but the industry for conducting this format war in such a fashion.



Of course the MAIN way to fix all this is to have ONE machine (HD or Blu) and ALL studios support that machine...and of course the movies need to drop close to the pricing levels/bundles that we see every single week in the Sunday ad's.


I don't have a problem with the pricing, I really don't. However, I agree with you on the one-format thing. People hear "two formats" and automatically have flashbacks to VHS. vs. Beta, and no amount of discussion will change their mind from that. (oddly enough, many people who are not experts on HDM consider themselves experts on the VHS vs. Beta war, though I've yet to understand why) They then decide to hold off on HDM, and thus stall progress for another year.

I agree and what drives me even more crazy is when those that own upscaling players try to claim that upscaling looks pretty much just as good as a real HD title. Talk about self-justification! :rolleyes:

That burns me up.... :mad:

I agree and what drives me even more crazy is when those that own upscaling players try to claim that upscaling looks pretty much just as good as a real HD title. Talk about self-justification! :rolleyes:
Or how about the flip side - customer gets annoyed because they cough up the $89 and see zero difference..........then they say screw the HD, it's a load of manure.

I was in 2 BBs over the weekend. They were pushing both formats rather heavily, so it seamed. One had an LG and S300 hooked up to a 42" display playing BD, and an A3 hooked up to a 42" and one hooked to a 60" display (playing Transformers). the second BB was pretty much the reverse. Unfortunately, with the exception of clearance items and open box items, most of the players were going for list price. I was unimpressed. I don't think they are really trying very hard.
J

I agree and what drives me even more crazy is when those that own upscaling players try to claim that upscaling looks pretty much just as good as a real HD title. Talk about self-justification! :rolleyes:

That burns me up.... :mad:

II noticed that the Sony and Samsung upscalers have the same gold 1080p "full HD" sticker on the front of them that their Blu-Ray counter parts have.
It may be the same with Toshiba too.

It appears that since the manufacturers sell far more upscaling DVD players, they are purposely trying to confuse customers to generate even more sales.
:mad:

the current pan. 1080p upscaler has been advertised in cc flyer not as 'almost hd' but as hd; i havent seen that ad in last month or so, however. it couldnt have helped the situation. i cant believe that hdm manufacturers will let this holiday season pass w/out a concerted effort to capitalize on it, perhaps w a mass 'insertion' of hd-a2s/a3s, chinese machines (venturer ?), bd players, etc., into the wlm'ts (as mentioned in other threads) and the other big boxes maybe just before thanksgiving or most likely starting on black friday. to miss out on that just defies all logic, imo!

Or how about the flip side - customer gets annoyed because they cough up the $89 and see zero difference..........then they say screw the HD, it's a load of manure.

Yep, forgot about that *wonderful* situation..... :mad:

I hate the fact that they show some of the higher end ones in the ads right next to the 'cheap' upscalers too. if someone is in the market for a higher end BR or HD deck the won't dpend on the Best Buy ad. They need to show the $400 PS3 or the $200 HD decks in the mass market ads. and stop saying the upconverters are near HD.

...How is HDM supposed the reach the masses like many are predicting (or hoping) when they (avg shopper) are being fed HUGE HUGE movie and player bargains in almost every Sunday paper ad...especially now that we are a month from the opening of the holiday shopping season..."
First off, studios and CEs are realistic. Only fanboys think or hope HDM will (or should) go anywhere fast. Everyone in buisiness is selling to the current market, which includes the old on the way out(old DVD players), the sweet spot (upscaling DVD players for those small 720 HDTVs bought in OK numbers) and the leading edge for a few willing to pay high end prices(HDM.)

No one in business cares about HDM for this xmas season. In case you have not heard, there's a format war like VHS/betsmax.

I agree and what drives me even more crazy is when those that own upscaling players try to claim that upscaling looks pretty much just as good as a real HD title. Talk about self-justification! :rolleyes:

That burns me up.... :mad:

Let me help you understand your problem - to them, it does look ~as good. Here's the clue - it's their opinion that counts for them, not yours. You also must realize that it looks ~as good because that's what you get when your watch a small(<42") HDTV (or bigger EDTV) for 12 to 15'.

HDM will VERY slowly phase in as prices come down and ppl see it's true merit at other ppls houses. But keep in mind, for a while it will be "Wow, but what did all the stuff cost."

Next xmas will be HDM's FIRST season. There will be some over priced DF players and HDM prices will be > DVD+$5.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has been fool enough to pay list in this forum.

Best Buy was running the $178 + Heroes Xbox promo in the Sunday paper, but like any other good deal in HD it's the result of a manufacturers promo. For some reason Best Buy sees no reason to hold prices down on HDM media or hardware. I think they don't want to be selling $100 HD players a year from now, they want the market to stay at higher price-points.

With our economy suffering a bit, it's funny to me that so many consumer outlets have begun to try and cultivate a higher-end market.

First off, studios and CEs are realistic. Only fanboys think or hope HDM will (or should) go anywhere fast. Everyone in buisiness is selling to the current market, which includes the old on the way out(old DVD players), the sweet spot (upscaling DVD players for those small 720 HDTVs bought in OK numbers) and the leading edge for a few willing to pay high end prices(HDM.)

No one in business cares about HDM for this xmas season. In case you have not heard, there's a format war like VHS/betsmax.



Let me help you understand your problem - to them, it does look ~as good. Here's the clue - it's their opinion that counts for them, not yours. You also must realize that it looks ~as good because that's what you get when your watch a small(<42") HDTV (or bigger EDTV) for 12 to 15'.

HDM will VERY slowly phase in as prices come down and ppl see it's true merit at other ppls houses. But keep in mind, for a while it will be "Wow, but what did all the stuff cost."

Next xmas will be HDM's FIRST season. There will be some over priced DF players and HDM prices will be > DVD+$5.

Pretty much dead-balls-on with your take on the situation. Stores ads are nothing but marketing spots that companies have paid for and beyond that, a store is going to advertise what will bring customers into their front door in order to entice them to buy something not on sale. High margin items are what brings in the cash and stores try to find a way to increase the sales of those high margin items. There has to be a fundamental demand to move product and there just isn't a demand for HDM at this point. Believe it or not but home theater is everyones favorite hobby, and the demand for HDM is support of that observation. Add to that the format war that only confuses people even more and you are scaring away many people who might have actually made a purchase if there wasn't a war.

I don't care if HDM goes mainstream or not, what I care about is can I buy titles.

I'm also not too upset at paying a premium for that title, to help offset the extra costs of production.

That said, honestly, the chances of either format superseding DVD is remote, at best. DVD is good enough for most everybody, and so they won't pay extra for the extra. Which means that the costs of production (which are obviously higher for HDM) cannot really be passed on to the consumer unless the consumer is willing to pay more.

Costs of production include more that simply pressing the disc, we're looking at extra features and more care with the print.

So long as I can buy my HDM discs, and the disc is a great transfer, I'll pay the 50% extra.

The option to rent is always there as well.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has been fool enough to pay list in this forum.
Call me a fool -- I paid list ($499) for a Tosh A1 on the first morning they showed up at the local Best Buy back in April 2006. I grabbed it off the hand truck they had just rolled in from the FedEx van. There weren't a lot of deals to be had that day.. ;)

Regarding the OP - doesn't anyone know what fraction of a weekend ad, like Best Buy's, contains products for which there has not been promotional payment by the manufacturer? In other words, what ad placement decisions are made by the retailers, and what ones come from the manufacturing ad budget?

Is placing the HD upscalers next to the HDM players a retailer-only decision to move hardware, or strongly incentivized by the manufacturer's marketing decisions?

I have always thought that the co-marketing money from the manufacturers dominated weekend ad placement, but I will have to admit I have no inside connections to know for sure.

Ken

A couple of very good points:

...High margin items are what brings in the cash and stores try to find a way to increase the sales of those high margin items...

...Believe it or not but home theater is everyones favorite hobby, and the demand for HDM is support of that observation...

I don't care if HDM goes mainstream or not, what I care about is can I buy titles.
...

I'm afraid the two go hand in hand, but according to my crystal ball. Pause, it's warming up. There it is - studios want HDM because, not like DVD, it is not easy to pirate.

For example, who's going to do the following with HDM:
Receive a DVD from netflix, pop it in the PC along with a 25 cent blank, press copy, and after dinner, put the netflix copy in outgoing mail and the DVD copy in the in basket.

Keep in mind, there are at least two things that ppl can not do in advance. (1) Decide what to have for lunch. (2) Decide what movie to watch.

II noticed that the Sony and Samsung upscalers have the same gold 1080p "full HD" sticker on the front of them that their Blu-Ray counter parts have.
It may be the same with Toshiba too.

It appears that since the manufacturers sell far more upscaling DVD players, they are purposely trying to confuse customers to generate even more sales.
:mad:

I agree with the confusing customers part because I have a upconverting dvd player and my girlfriend says that looks like HD to me and I say its not.To prove to her its not I have to take her in the basement turn on a movie in HD from DTV and show her the difference. I know most women cant tell the difference anyway it just shows that she seeings something that says near HD she thinks it is.

Unfortunately the marketing of upscaling DVD players is a big hit to people's adoption of HD formats. Toshiba even shoots themselves in the foot with HD DVD player's ads. "It allows me to watch my DVDs in near HD." Even if you get someone to buy an HD DVD player, why would they bother paying $10-15 more for a movie if they think buying the same title on DVD is the same thing?

A couple of very good points:





I'm afraid the two go hand in hand, but according to my crystal ball. Pause, it's warming up. There it is - studios want HDM because, not like DVD, it is not easy to pirate.

For example, who's going to do the following with HDM:
Receive a DVD from netflix, pop it in the PC along with a 25 cent blank, press copy, and after dinner, put the netflix copy in outgoing mail and the DVD copy in the in basket.

Keep in mind, there are at least two things that ppl can not do in advance. (1) Decide what to have for lunch. (2) Decide what movie to watch.

...maybe the netflix method is another time of timeshifting.

...maybe not...

In the end we'll all be downloading and not owning....

...maybe the netflix method is another time of timeshifting.

...maybe not...

In the end we'll all be downloading and not owning....

That will be a LONG time away I believe, current bandwidth issues will prevent it for quite some time, in my opinion.

I don't buy into the downloadable movies at all.

the current pan. 1080p upscaler has been advertised in cc flyer not as 'almost hd' but as hd; i havent seen that ad in last month or so, however. it couldnt have helped the situation. i cant believe that hdm manufacturers will let this holiday season pass w/out a concerted effort to capitalize on it, perhaps w a mass 'insertion' of hd-a2s/a3s, chinese machines (venturer ?), bd players, etc., into the wlm'ts (as mentioned in other threads) and the other big boxes maybe just before thanksgiving or most likely starting on black friday. to miss out on that just defies all logic, imo!

Personally I think they're already letting the opportunities slip by. I don't know about your circle of friends, but mine have already started their Christmas shopping.

HDM Isn't for the masses, not this Holiday season. The prices are still too steep and there is no clear winner on the horizon.

Hd dvd players are going to start entering the higher end $150-200 upscaling dvd players and after that the $100 upscaling players.

It will get to a point where dvd simply wont be and hd dvd will replace it. It just takes awhile.


This is what consoles do to each other. At some point the xbox 360 will start reatching ps2 pricing and then there wont be any more ps2 sales.