I am currently in plan check with the City of Los Angeles for a home remodel. One of the rooms we will be building from scratch is a dedicated home theater room. Since I am interested in having complete lighting control over the room we decided to make the room an internal room. The room does not share any external walls since I did not want windows in the room.

We received our first set of plan check comments back from the City and they have taken issue with this theater room. They state that it is a habitable room and therefore it must meet CBC codes 1203.2 and 1203.3. One code deals with the requirement of natural light via a window while the other code deals with a means of ventilation by means of an exterior opening. :confused:

My question is how do people get around these two code requirements? I would assume there are plenty of people within Los Angeles with dedicated theater rooms that do not contain windows. Are there any codes exceptions or workarounds that anyone has come across that I might try? We are far enough along that to change the home design would be both a time and cost issue for us. It would be more of less out of the question to move the room as well.

Any help would be extremely appreciated. We are going to meet with the plan checker this Thursday (Oct 25th).

Thanks.

Scott

One classic workaround is to comply with their requirments and after the final inspection just change it to how you want it.

However if there are no external walls in your plan that might be difficult.

Did a quick check in the LA homeowner guidelines (http://www.ladbs.org/rpt_code_pub/home_owner_guide.pdf) and found this:

"VARIANCES FROM CODES AND ORDINANCES
The Department has an appeal process for alternate construction methods. Be sure to
discuss any concerns you have with the plan check engineer when you first submit your plans. Your construction Inspector can also advise you which items may be appealed and provide you with forms for making the appeal. "

Thanks Bigmouth for the info and taking the time to look that up. :) I will definately be asking the plan checker when I see him this week.

I was just hoping I might have some examples that people might have used to get around or appeal this to provide to the City when I go in.

I was wondering if anyone from Los Angeles has gone through this. It seems like it would be somewhat common.

I tried to get a variance in my theater with no luck. I think you have to convince them that it isn't a habitable room and that windows are not in line with the intended use of the room. With a dedicated theater, ventilation might not be a bad thing and using an HRV could get around this requirement (although I believe the code uses the words "operable" and "window".

The problem very simply is that just because you are defining the room to have a certain purpose, does not mean that it will always be the case.

What happens when you sell the house and someone else moves in and decides it is a bedroom or family room?

Unfortunately the city has to be concerned with the future use of the house, not just your use.

Perhaps you can go with a roof window that opens. Include in the room build plan the ability to close the roof window opening with a removable panel. The roof window may give you the code compliance with ventilation and light.

Perhaps you can go with a roof window that opens. Include in the room build plan the ability to close the roof window opening with a removable panel. The roof window may give you the code compliance with ventilation and light.

That was what I was also thinking.

I think i have seen skylights that also are made with tubes/reflectors if the room is cetered and not near any low space above it.

Can always make a panel to cover or, or drywall over after inspection.

There have been some disturbing changes to codes lately, like requiring all rooms in basements to have escape windows whether the room is habitable or not. Safety is one thing, but there comes a time when a man should be able to be able to make his home the way he wants to.

thanks for all the replys. Things that will not work for me though are roof windows. It is literally in the middle of the house where the roof is at its peak. I wish i had just called it a walk in closet in hindsight. haha. I may have to show that it is open to an adjoining room or perhaps they will let me get away with a skylight. I do not like the skylight though beacuse I do not want light in the first place and the extra cost and potential for future leaking kind of sucks.

So no one on these forums has put in a home theater in Los Angeles? I have been to one in a high end home in Newport beach before and it did not have light. they must ahve paid off the inspectors? haha

:(

How about not putting a door on the room? If someone where to come along later and put a door in the doorway.....

thanks for all the replys. Things that will not work for me though are roof windows. It is literally in the middle of the house where the roof is at its peak. I wish i had just called it a walk in closet in hindsight. haha. I may have to show that it is open to an adjoining room or perhaps they will let me get away with a skylight. I do not like the skylight though beacuse I do not want light in the first place and the extra cost and potential for future leaking kind of sucks.

So no one on these forums has put in a home theater in Los Angeles? I have been to one in a high end home in Newport beach before and it did not have light. they must ahve paid off the inspectors? haha

:(

i've been lurking around and just like post #2 said, add window frames and some cheapo windows and get your certificate of occupancy. once you get that rip out the windows and drywall and re-do it.
thats what i would do

Is there a way you can leave one or part of a wall down so that the HT is connected to a room with windows? Maybe an opening for french doors? You could then pass the inspection and afterwards put the wall up after.
Good Luck

"When the inspector starts paying my mortgage, then he can tell me what I can't do in my house."

Personnally, i'm an inspector for a city here in Quebec. Even tho we have a different code for construction than yours, we have request concerning the windows too (mostly for security and light/ventilation). Your room is probably big enough to be considered habitable.

Like other said, what i would suggest is be legal during the inspection and after that, change it. Here in Quebec we can't go against the Construction code because it's a federal legislation, so it's higher than the city power.

Maybe you could check what are the requirement that obligates you to have a window (Here it's with the surface of the room). So would could build a "temporary" wall in the room to seperate it, so the surface won't be big enough to require windows, and then when you get the permit, destroy it and enjoy your HT!

Just giving my 2 cents and how it works for us up here ;)

Take the term "home theater" off your plans. Then ask the 'plan checker', just how he'd propose you provide an exterior operable window to an interior room.

Ugh....that is one part of the code I was afraid of.....planning on stating mine up after the 1st of the year.

My basement has two windows that I was going to frame over for the theater. I guess I can just build plugs after the fact and then fabric over them.

In my build I eliminated an exterior window from my basement HT. My city required me to follow code where I changed out the air once every 3 hours and provided adequate artificial light. I don't have the code information up front of me, but the plan inspector quoted from the International Residential Code book. This may be an acceptable workaround in LA as well.

Ugh....that is one part of the code I was afraid of.....planning on stating mine up after the 1st of the year.

My basement has two windows that I was going to frame over for the theater. I guess I can just build plugs after the fact and then fabric over them.

Its all what the local code allows. I walled over 3 windows in my basement. I took out permits and had inspections. The local code gave me fits with HVAC, as they limited flex ducts to runs shorter than 14 feet, and my joist bays were pretty loaded up. Made sound isolation more challenging.

I have heard nothing but horror stories about California permitting, my sympathies to the OP.

again thanks to all thsoe that took the time to respond. It is based on any space used for "living". how do you like that? I guess I could "live" in a bathroom but I don't ahve to have a window because of it. The code asks for natural light from an opening that is 24 sf minimum I believe. I was thinking of putting a door from this room into a neighboring room that does have windows to satisfy sf and then closing it up afterward. I am not sure if this will fly though and they may want a window in "this" room. It is going to be a real nightmare I am sure. I will find out tomorrow anyway.

So how do all the people in Home Theater magazine etc get away with it? Big bucks?:)

You could consult a remodeling contractor to see if they have had to deal with this issue before and if they have a good work around for your situation.

I have a contractor friend whom I consult when I get ready to start a DIY project. I find his many years experience a wonderful tool in its own right. He has a different way of looking at things and "sees" potential problems that I may not and usually has a pretty simple way of working around these problems.

Good luck in your adventure.

Regards,

RTRSOE

According to the International Residential Code Book of 2007 under section R202, a habitable space is defined as "A space in a building for living. sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar are not considered habitable spaces."!

So, unless you plan to eat, sleep and cook (not advisable) in your dedicated theater, it's not a habitable space! Throw that one at your L.A. inspector.

I think it was mentioned above, tell it's a VERY LARGE walk-in closet for your wife !!!

Yeah, although the word "living" kind of kills the defense so to speak. I guess you could argue you're also "living" when you're in the bathroom or kitchen, or at least you had better be or you have some problems I guess. :D

It's a storage room :)

Matt

So what happened at the meeting? This is like TV serial drama where the world is being overrun by aliens and the second season isn't renewed.

I agree with Dennis, don't call it an inhabitable room, call it "storage" or "pantry." -:) I know codes are a hassle, but at the end of the day once you start building and gaining confidence in your inspectors, it will be a lot smoother. I was sick of them, but during my final inspection, the Inspector said "Holly Sh**" when he saw the theater. He even asked if he can come back and show his wife this because he would like to do the same thing in his basement.

On the other hand, I have seen a number of contractor jobs when things are not up to code.

According to the International Residential Code Book of 2007 under section R202, a habitable space is defined as "A space in a building for living. sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar are not considered habitable spaces."!

So, unless you plan to eat, sleep and cook (not advisable) in your dedicated theater, it's not a habitable space! Throw that one at your L.A. inspector.

The operable word is "or"; meaning if the room is to be used for living, sleeping, eating or cooking and then the codes define bathrooms, closets, etc as being exempt from the requiremnt. If I was a designer, I would be extremely careful on helping people get around the building code in Southern California. With that said unless the building code has been modified by local authorities, the requirements for basement rooms, Code Requirements for basements are:

International Residential Code™ (IRC-2006)
Egress/Rescue Openings Code Requirements
For One- and Two-Family Dwellings

EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE REQUIRED SECTION: R 310.1
Basements and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency and rescue opening. Such opening shall open directly into a public street, public alley, yard or court. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency egress and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Where emergency escape and rescue openings are provided they shall have a sill height of not more than 44 inches (1118 mm) above the floor. Where a door opening having a threshold below the adjacent ground elevation serves as an emergency escape and rescue opening and is provided with a bulkhead enclosure, the bulkhead enclosure shall comply with Section R310.3. The net clear opening dimensions required by this section shall be obtained by the normal operation of the emergency escape and rescue opening from the inside. Emergency escape and rescue openings with a finished sill height below the adjacent ground elevation shall be provided with a window well in accordance with Section R310.2.

Posted on San Jose website:
ICC Bay Area Tri-Chapter of Northern California - Basement Guidelines
Recommendations & Commentary committee meeting (full text is available at http://www.sanjoseca.gov/building/Other/Basement_Commentry.pdf)

AHJ = authority having jurisdiction (the local building enforcement agency)

NATURAL LIGHT SCENARIO –
An applicant proposing to build an 800 sq. ft. home theatre in a basement did not want any windows because he wanted the basement to be dark. The designer was proposing to use CBC sec. 1203.1 to get out of providing windows in the basement. This code section states, "For the purpose of
determining the light or ventilation for Group R Occupancies required by this section, any room may be considered as a portion of an adjoining room when one half of the area of the common wall is open and unobstructed and provides an opening of not less than one tenth of the floor area of the
interior room or 25 square feet, whichever is greater." The advantage of using this code section in a basement application is that openings in the floor of the first story, as well as skylights, could provide natural light to the basement without having to provide windows in the basement. See the hypothetical example below for some possible scenarios.

EXAMPLE: SFD - 1,200 sq. ft basement - first story is 1,000 sq. ft.
The natural light required for the basement is 120 sq. ft. (10% of floor area)
The natural light required for the first floor is 100 sq. ft. (10% of floor area)
The total light required for both floors combined is 220 sq. ft. (10% of combined floor area)

Case #1 - 100% of the natural light for the basement could come from roof skylights with clear unobstructed openings of the combined skylights totaling 120 sq. ft. and extending all the way from the roof to the basement with no reduction in shaft size OR

Case #2 - 100% of the natural light for the basement could come from 220 sq. ft. of window openings in the first story with adequate floor openings into the basement below. However, the AHJ would have to determine how much of the first story floor would have to remain open as there is no common wall in this scenario. The assumption with this code section is that an "adjoining room" is presumed to be on the same floor level as the room it adjoins to.
The consensus of the committee was that this scenario could possibly be acceptable to the AHJ under the Alternate Methods and Materials of Construction.

Note 1: Bringing light from the floor above or through skylights does not eliminate the requirement for emergency escape or rescue provisions as previously specified in this document.

Ok, sorry for the delay for those that were interested in seeing how this one turned out. I went in and met with the plan checked last week.

It turned out to be not as much of an issue as I had envisioned. This was mostly due to the fact that plan checker did not provide me with a variance form to allow for this sort of thing. He even said "I probably ashould have given you that form with your comments."

As it turns out, you can fill out a form that the City of Los Angeles provides, that is basically a request for an exception to a code (I am at work and do not have the name of the exact form but it is a multipurpose form for a bunch of things). In this case I was stating that this room is designed specifically for use as a theater room only. The important thing is to prove to them that there is no intent to use this room for anything other than that, especially not a bedroom in the future.

Now I am not 100% in the clear yet because I have to get this plan checker supervisors approval to make such an exception. He made is seem like his supervisor would believe us since we are showing stagger stud walls, no closet etc.

A few things I learned for all you City of LA people that might be important for your designs include: Be careful if you put a closet in your "theater room" as they see this as more of a bedroom or potential future bedroom. If you add this they might not let you get around the lighting code. It may be helpful to provide a plan showing your theater layout (wiring, seating, projector etc) to help prove that this is what the room is solely intended for.

One other minor thing not theater room related is be careful with any room you are making that you don't want to be considered a bedroom. We have an "office" that the Bureau of Engineering is now counting as a bedroom. The reason is that they charge sewer fees based on the number of rooms or soemthing. So basically it seems that if you have a room with 4 walls, a window and a closet they will probably count it as a bedroom. This might be minor but I am sure I pay more fees because of this fact.

Anyway, again I would like to thank all of you good people for your suggestions and moral support. I will try and post again if I run into any snags or everythign goes through as planned. :)

Take the term "home theater" off your plans.


There's another good reason to do that. A "Home Theater" spells big bucks to the tax assessor. I called mine a "Media Room". You know a pool table, a dry bar, a big screen TV. That way I was able to get the drywall shell signed off then start with the real theater construction. I had the same issues with required windows but reatined them outside anyway because the addition would look silly with no windows. I installed mini blinds and covered the windows with MDF panels in the inside.

Resale is a valid concern. Not everyone wants a theater in their house so to that end I even framed out a sliding door in one wall but stuccoed and drywalled over the framing. I took pictures to show future buyers the possibility of adding a 6 foot door to the back patio.

A skylight tube still may meet the requirements

http://www.sun-dome.com/tubular_skylight_features.html is just one type. The tube can be as long as you need it to be in the attic.

So what happened at the meeting? This is like TV serial drama where the world is being overrun by aliens and the second season isn't renewed.

I was so pissed when invasion got canceled...

Doh, back on topic!

Yes, variances are your friend. As long as you aren't cryptic with your explanation and you don't catch whatever director/planner is signing it on a bad day, they're usually all you need.

I work for an architecture firm down in orange county. We do a lot of work in LA & OC, including high end custom homes/extensive remodels. I've dealt with the city many, many times regarding home theaters, and what I found works with *dedicated* HTs (dedicated, as in this is what you want and as long as you'll be living there, it won't change) is adding a note stating that the room is to be used exclusively as a home theater and that if the house were to be sold in the future, you would notify the buyers of the room. The city is usually good with this as it releases them from liability and you can get away without having to file/pay extra fees for the variance. They have asked for increased air changes from time to time, but that's about it.

I have recently started running into an issue with naming rooms 'media room'. Some plancheckers are now viewing the multiple uses of a media room as a possible use of a living space. Their take on it is that the actual 'use' of a 'media' space is too broad, so it needs to comply with more strict codes.

Oh, and for you California folks, get ready for a code change at the first of the year. 2007 CBC (used in CA as of 1/1/2008) is now using the 2006 IBC (Internationl Building Code) as a baseline (as opposed to the UBC (Uniform Building Code) which has been used for decades). The two codes are quite different, so just a heads up for ya.