Micheal Bay's website is looking for pro HD DVD participant for moderated debate on that site.

Unknown to the format or date and time

I have real world client responsibilities that take up most of my Thursday daytime.



Webmaster is requesting 1200 EST selection of a participant.

That seems like an uphill battle with Bay apparantly Pro-Blu-ray....

don't you think the pros and cons of each format has been debated too much already? what exactly is the purpose of it? i visit the blu-ray.com forums every now and then and upon reading up on some of the threads there, i would bet it would just turn out into an uncivilized discussion by the 3rd post. my 2 cents...

I vote Kosty if we want a civilized debate, Rdjam if we want to drop kick Michael Bay to the curb.

don't you think the pros and cons of each format has been debated too much already? what exactly is the purpose of it? i visit the blu-ray.com forums every now and then and upon reading up on some of the threads there, i would bet it would just turn out into an uncivilized discussion by the 3rd post. my 2 cents...It will get press attention focused on the other side of the story.

With Bay apparantly not worried about crapping on the hand that feeds him i doubt hes to worried about Pro HD DVD mods on his site ;)

what is obviously silly and insulting about that post by nelson and this whole deal is that apparently there is a conception that avsforum is the hd dvd side .... where the hell does that come from ?

i wouldn't dignify this ...

Nothing good comes from a debate, when the moderator has chosen a winner before the debate even begins.
this would not be a good idea.
It seems like Bay's blu-ray buddies have not given up on wanting Transformers.

IMHO ... the fact that someone is trying to schedule a "debate" on which distribuiton format is "better" is the crux of the situation. How can a distribution format's specifications be "debated"? They are factual and are not subject to debate.

Now, don't get me wrong here. For the un-educated an explanation of what the format's specifications mean, a translation of specs to "reality of use", is extremely useful. Again though, these should be statements based solely in fact and again, should not be debateable as some features of a spec may be important to me, while others I have no interest in.

While this effort is noble in nature - I see it only as a means to "convince the lazy" on what specifications and features are important to those same intellectually lazy people. These are the consumers who should stay away from EITHER format. They are, in reality, looking to lay blame on others (insert ANYONE or ANYTHING here - studios, corporations, a website, etc) for a possible mistake they may one day make by purchasing a piece of CE.

All this hub-ub and wasted effort over a 5.25" disc continues to boggle my mind. I still fail to understand the ultimate point of a debate over something that cannot be changed (the specs of a format) by a consumer. These are the intellectually lazy and I for one have no desire in participating in a "supposed" intellectual exchange for the benefit of those that take no responsibilty for the knowledge to be gained.

Ok ... done ranting :)

IMHO ... the fact that someone is trying to schedule a "debate" on which distribuiton format is "better" is the crux of the situation. How can a distribution format's specifications be "debated"? They are factual and are not subject to debate.

Now, don't get me wrong here. For the un-educated an explanation of what the format's specifications mean, a translation of specs to "reality of use", is extremely useful. Again though, these should be statements based solely in fact and again, should not be debateable as some features of a spec may be important to me, while others I have no interest in.

While this effort is noble in nature - I see it only as a means to "convince the lazy" on what specifications and features are important to those same intellectually lazy people. These are the consumers who should stay away from EITHER format. They are, in reality, looking to lay blame on others (insert ANYONE or ANYTHING here - studios, corporations, a website, etc) for a possible mistake they may one day make by purchasing a piece of CE.

All this hub-ub and wasted effort over a 5.25" disc continues to boggle my mind. I still fail to understand the ultimate point of a debate over something that cannot be changed (the specs of a format) by a consumer. These are the intellectually lazy and I for one have no desire in participating in a "supposed" intellectual exchange for the benefit of those that take no responsibilty for the knowledge to be gained.

Ok ... done ranting :)

Because Sony has clouded the market with so much FUD, at least now there can be a factual debate that will educate people who have a hard time weeding through all the PR crap.

As much as I would like to see a rational, level-headed debate between the two camps I dont think it will happen. It seems you guys wont put forth a representitive because you feel that the technical merits of the formats will be discussed, where Blu-ray has an obvious advantage. I probably wouldn't want to debate for the HD DVD side either with a mountain to tackle like that. Certainly, its harder to convince people when you have a moderator who will not allow spin.

And please god, no Rdjam. The forums have a bad enough name as it is already, the last thing we need is someone with views like that to be propped up as the AVS Representative. Both AVS and HD DVD fans would come out looking bad in that scenario.

BDA wants to debate this? Guess they are feeling it and are trying to convince themselves and others that they arent the weakest link in this war. If HD DVD was trying to organize this then you could say the same about them.

A factual debate only leads to the conclusion that Blu-ray has the greater specs and has the greater potential as encoding and production improves. HD-DVD factually has more problems with discs and freezing which is evident in all forums. Blu-ray has the harder coating which makes it scratch proof so to speak, even against a brillo pad.. When an insider like Rickard Casey, President of Rbfilms comes on AVS and says the same things I've said above which are all factual, he gets attacked by none other than Microsofts former employee Amirm. We then find out Amir was not being truthful in his post about how helpful Microsoft was with Richard.. As for Transformers, why wasn't lossless audio placed on the disc? This was answered by Paramount already in a press-conference which simply shows a lack of bandwidth and space as being the culprit since they wanted the video to look better and adding lossless would have caused the video bitrate to be on average at 14mbps which Richard has stated is not good enough and apparently Paramounts encoding team also agreed with that assessment since they chose to leave it out... Then the discussion can lead to Tl51 and why is that needed or important if HD-DVD is already "good enough", and will it be compatible with current players? All that this will accomplish is in showing Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh HD-DVD's...

IMHO ... the fact that someone is trying to schedule a "debate" on which distribuiton format is "better" is the crux of the situation. How can a distribution format's specifications be "debated"? They are factual and are not subject to debate.

And considering that superior specifications have had little or no influence on winning market wars when the inferior technology "also delivers the goods" in the eyes of the consumer, what would be the point? I would think for the debate to be useful, it would have to concentrate on the attributes that have actual importance to the market and thus will really influence the outcome of this format "war".

im for plazman and Rdjam.

For some as important as Michael Bay I would think that someone high up on the HD DVD forum would make a personal visit to him and personally demonstrate all the benefits of HD DVD and answer any questions. Anyway we could talk Amir into do this one last thing?

Debating the issue will only show zealous chanting from both sides with not a single person changing there opinion or views no matter what is said or proven.

Michael Bay apparently cares about quality and I would hope that the only thing that would sway him is actual facts and comparisons.

How is this debate any different from all the format war threads on every website going?

Why give it any legititamcy?

This is just a web site after some more site traffic.

How do you decide a 'winner'? Won't one side cry foul regardless? Won't the public still buy as it sees fit?

Mind you it might be worth it to see blu-ray squirm every time profiles comes up.

You do realise that Michael Bay is on holiday and isn't even involved in this?

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=291567&postcount=52
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=291653&postcount=77

The Blu-ray side wants a debate as they are obssesed with 'winning'.

+1 for Plazman, often brings numbers\links to support his points, a good debater, not just a fanboy.

All that this will accomplish is in showing Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh HD-DVD's...

Which leads to the question "why has blu ray failed to end the war that they said that they had already won".

Sticking a BD in every PS3 didnt do it.
Having studio support didnt do it.
BOGO didnt do it.
Having better technical strengths didnt do it.
Whats up? Why cant they or havent they won the war?

What about Amir? Could he be won over to attend as HDDVD representative? I guess this would be highly political, and if I was he I would decline ;). Nevertheless, all the candidates which were proposed so far (Plazman, Lee Stewart, rdjam, Kosty, ...) qualify in my eyes.

Which leads to the question "why has blu ray failed to end the war that they said that they had already won".

Sticking a BD in every PS3 didnt do it.
Having studio support didnt do it.
BOGO didnt do it.
Having better technical strengths didnt do it.
Whats up? Why cant they or havent they won the war?
Price....average Joe still doesnt need/want high definition DVD's because they are happy with SD....and split studio support.

How is this debate any different from all the format war threads on every website going?

Why give it any legititamcy?

This is just a web site after some more site traffic.

How do you decide a 'winner'? Won't one side cry foul regardless? Won't the public still buy as it sees fit?

Mind you it might be worth it to see blu-ray squirm every time profiles comes up.

You do realise that Michael Bay is on holiday and isn't even involved in this?

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=291567&postcount=52
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=291653&postcount=77

The Blu-ray side wants a debate as they are obssesed with 'winning'.
Exactly what I was thinking when I read today about the "debate". Transformers is out, it has received superior scores regarding PQ and AQ, and everyone should be happy, except for some BD hardliners who desperately want the title on their favourite format. So the solely purpose of the thread could be to discredit the HDDVD format decision which Paramount/DW made. By the way the bickering and FUD spreading has already started in the referenced thread. Whoever is to attend this "debate" should be aware that he has nothing to win and only to lose...

Price....average Joe still doesnt need/want high definition DVD's because they are happy with SD....and split studio support.

Then BD has or will lose the war.
I doubt that they can afford to or are willing to lose more money than they already are.

If its price, then its just a matter of time before blu ray joins beta max in peoples closets and landfills.

A factual debate only leads to the conclusion that Blu-ray has the greater specs and has the greater potential as encoding and production improves. HD-DVD factually has more problems with discs and freezing which is evident in all forums. Blu-ray has the harder coating which makes it scratch proof so to speak, even against a brillo pad.. When an insider like Rickard Casey, President of Rbfilms comes on AVS and says the same things I've said above which are all factual, he gets attacked by none other than Microsofts former employee Amirm. We then find out Amir was not being truthful in his post about how helpful Microsoft was with Richard.. As for Transformers, why wasn't lossless audio placed on the disc? This was answered by Paramount already in a press-conference which simply shows a lack of bandwidth and space as being the culprit since they wanted the video to look better and adding lossless would have caused the video bitrate to be on average at 14mbps which Richard has stated is not good enough and apparently Paramounts encoding team also agreed with that assessment since they chose to leave it out... Then the discussion can lead to Tl51 and why is that needed or important if HD-DVD is already "good enough", and will it be compatible with current players? All that this will accomplish is in showing Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh HD-DVD's...

Clearly ... nothing could be further from the truth, and again ... this is the problem. Here is an example: I am in the market for a new receiver. I am looking at two models. One model has a completely flat freq response from 5-26Khz. Another model has the exact same freq respose with a -3db dip from 23K-26K. Which receiver is better?

Answer ... NEITHER based on spec. The "feature to use" education lies in the fact that NO HUMAN ALVE can hear frequencies in the 23K-26K range. Any "debate" over which receiver is "better" in the above example is completely WORTHLESS.

When will people finally understand that just because "format X" has "spec Y" it does NOT make that format better in anyway, unless that specific spec makes the end result of use a better experience.

This is why I completely ignore any "my format, spec, or anything ELSE about a CE product is better than yours" unless my experience when using said product is somehow limited based on that spec. Sheesh ... enough with storage and bit-rates as to date all are worthless points to quality of experience!!

HD-DVD factually has more problems with discs and freezing which is evident in all forums.

Funny. I've never once had a problem with any of my disks, including combos. And many others here are either in the same boat, or have had a problem with one or two disks at most. Making such a statement as this is akin to me taking isolated incidents of F4 not playing correctly and then stating that "Blu Ray factually has more problems with not even playing disks". I mean, it's not like you can't find any examples of blu ray disks not playing or skipping, freezing, etc.

Blu-ray has the harder coating which makes it scratch proof so to speak, even against a brillo pad..

I like how people continously forget to leave out the fact that the coating is necessary due to the fact that the data is stored closer to the surface of the disk, making the data in fact more vulnerable to potential damage. It's not like the coating was placed there out of the kindness of the companies hearts.

Then the discussion can lead to Tl51 and why is that needed or important if HD-DVD is already "good enough",

Maybe so the whole continuous shouting of 50gb dl Blu Ray disk talking point gets nullified? I don't know, wild guess there. ;)

and will it be compatible with current players? All that this will accomplish is in showing Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh HD-DVD's...

If by "far outweigh" you mean, "matter very little", then yes, I agree.

What I don't understand: since when is AVS the forum of HDDVD fans solely? Or am I reading too much into webmaster's invitation:

Hello,

My name is Nelson and I'm the webmaster for the official Michael Bay site (Michaelbay.com) and the admin for Michael Bay's Shoot for the Edit (SFTE) forums.

I am here to extend an invitation to a civil debate on the SFTE forums on the subject of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. An invitation has also gone out to members of AVS.com/Blu-ray forum. The debate will be moderated by me and will be amongst one person representing Blu-ray.com forum and one person representing the AVS forum.

Please choose ONE person among you to represent your forum. Let that person contact me at nelson@michaelbay.com so I can set up the debate.

Also, when you do select that one person to represent you, that person should have 3 to 5 question they are willing to ask the other side.

I think the webmaster has a misconception about AVS. For me AVS HD forums represent both camps equally. However, what's about the 3 to 5 questions to the "other" side?

Whoever goes please ask Mr Bay if he has seen the HD DVD of Transformers and then ask when BR will be able to deliver a disc that matches it for features.

As for Transformers, why wasn't lossless audio placed on the disc? This was answered by Paramount already in a press-conference which simply shows a lack of bandwidth and space as being the culprit since they wanted the video to look better and adding lossless would have caused the video bitrate to be on average at 14mbps which Richard has stated is not good enough and apparently Paramounts encoding team also agreed with that assessment since they chose to leave it out...

Link to this supposed press conference please.

All that this will accomplish is in showing Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh HD-DVD's...

Yet Transformers in its current form is not possible on the so-called superior BR format. So how do BR's strenght's outweigh HD DVD's again?

That seems like an uphill battle with Bay apparantly Pro-Blu-ray....

Who said the HD DVD of 300 "Rocks"..

Who said the HD DVD of 300 "Rocks"..

I wonder what he will say if/when he sees the HD DVD of Transformers.

There wont be anything objective about this debate. You can see that the Michael Bay forums have been invaded by Blu-ray.com members and the overall atmosphere is one of animosity.

The first post from their Mod (Nelson) tells all
It looks like the Blu-ray.com people have responded and are willing to debate in a civilized manner.

Which is more than I can say for the AVS/HD DVD camp. My invitation was either moved or deleted faster that you can say "They killed Kenny!"

So, if anyone can contact a person from the AVS or any legit HD DVD forum to accept this denate, please refer them to me.

They thread goes on to talk about HD DVD's needing to be boiled to work. I notice no one mentioned the Fantastic Four fiasco, or Liars Dice?

This is going to be a FUD-fest and whoever debates for HD DVD is going to be demonized at that forum. This isn't an intellectual debate they are looking for, it's a witch hunt/lynching. No matter how professional and factual the HD DVD rep is it is just going to turn into "Well Michael Bay says BD is better so it must be!"

Unfortunately this is like a train wreak and it will be hard not to watch.

We should have tried to round up Kevin Collins just for shock factor!

Which leads to the question "why has blu ray failed to end the war that they said that they had already won".

Sticking a BD in every PS3 didnt do it.
Having studio support didnt do it.
BOGO didnt do it.
Having better technical strengths didnt do it.
Whats up? Why cant they or havent they won the war?

I thought Sony said they'd won back in January? :)

There wont be anything objective about this debate. You can see that the Michael Bay forums have been invaded by Blu-ray.com members and the overall atmosphere is one of animosity.

The first post from their Mod (Nelson) tells all


They thread goes on to talk about HD DVD's needing to be boiled to work. I notice no one mentioned the Fantastic Four fiasco, or Liars Dice?

This is going to be a FUD-fest and whoever debates for HD DVD is going to be demonized at that forum. This isn't an intellectual debate they are looking for, it's a witch hunt/lynching. No matter how professional and factual the HD DVD rep is it is just going to turn into "Well Michael Bay says BD is better so it must be!"

Unfortunately this is like a train wreak and it will be hard not to watch.

We should have tried to round up Kevin Collins just for shock factor!

Ever since Paramount left Blu-ray and Transformers came out on HD DVD the Blu-ray camp has been foaming at the mouth over it. Can't we send them all some tranquilisers or something?

If anyone needs more proof of the bias at MB forum then look no further. They are currently debating how many more copies of Transformers would have sold if it was a BD exclusive:


300 grossed $210 million, Transformers grossed $318 million.
300 sold 165,000 copies on Blu-ray in its first week, despite being available in HD on the inferior format as well, HD DVD.

Transformers sold 190,000 copies on HD DVD in its first week as an exclusive HD title.

If Transformers performed as well as 300 did on Blu-ray, disregarding the fact 300 was also available on HD DVD, Transformers would have had to sell 249,000 copies on HD DVD.

165,000/$210mil x $318mil = 249,000 copies.

Had this been on Blu-ray it would have sold probably more than 400,000 copies on its first week of release.

Just wanted to add another perspective.

Now maybe it's just me or is speculating over sales of a product that doesn't exist about as useful as speculating on how many Miles Per Gallon you could get out of a rocket powered unicorn???

Price....average Joe still doesnt need/want high definition DVD's because they are happy with SD....and split studio support.

I definitely agree with you on the price/need/want issues. I do not have any family, friends, or people I work with that have jumped on either high definition bandwagon. They are all satisfied with SD. Many of them do not like the higher costs of equipment and media. Most of them don't own widescreen televisions. And the ones with widescreen tvs, watch fullscreen movies on them. Sorry for going off on a tangent there. :o

This has to be the most utterly retarded event I've ever witnessed. Whats so crazy is, a bunch of techy nerds debating the technical superiority of either format has absolutely ZERO bearing on what the real consumer actually looks for. It kills me that these people don't realize that folks like us here at AVS are the far minority. The consumer who is going to determine the winner does not give two sh!ts and a giggle about the technical jargon or superiority of one format over the other. They don't care that Blu-Ray has a hard scratch resistant coating, because most people watch the movie a few times, and let it sit in its case where it doesnt get mauled up. The average person doesnt care about which audio codec the disc uses, or how the video is compressed. The average person does not care about interractive features or how much room there is on a disc to squeeze extra crap. The average person just does not $#@$ing care about all of this, they simply want it to be inexpensive, have a wide selection of movies that look good (which DVD quality to most folks is still good enough), and not have to make confusing choices about upgrading to a new format.

Both of these formats stand zero chance against the incoming train that is downloadable movies. I love my A2 and PS3, but they will be obsolete in a few years. Period. When speeds get high enough/enough bandwidth to easily download HD movies, one of these companies are going to come up with a slick interface that hooks everyone. Its coming.

Who gives a rat's tail about Bay or the rest of these Producer/ Director/ movie-maker tools?

Does anyone really think they will decide the future of HDM?

I care about the CEM's first, retailers second, movie making tools >>> NEVER!

Am I in the right forum?!? This must be the blu-ray forum right!?! OH, I guess not. It's the HD-DVD forum. I just assumed based on all the blu-ray supporters here calling HD-DVD the weaker format that this must be the Blu-Ray forum. Or Digitalbits, or maybe even blu-ray.com.
Oh, that's right. I forget AVS does not have a smackdown area, so I get to read blu-ray fanboys no matter which forum I enter.

here I will take this if no one minds ;)

I am neutral and definetly not a spec monkey. Can't be a spec monkey. I work in IT. Where I see specs every day on paper for Network switches, Fiber-channel through put, Storage array ram size for caching, etc etc until I am blue in the face. The question is, how does it apply in the REAL WORLD (Network swithces can never go above 80% of the advertise speed, Fiber-Channel can have 10 Gb but is limited to PCI-X bus speeds anyway, only when paired with Infiniband can it actually get CLOSE, Netapp use 1/4 the write cache that EMC uses and real world testing shows that is suffers no performance loss, AT ALL) and are they using the Specs for selling. 98% do as they can not back those claims up come showtime.

so spec out all you want, in the end it is irrelevant when it comes to real world use.

saying a debate over on that site is stupid is just insulting all of us. Talk about being hypicriticle. All they are are a bunch of people who are interested in HDM enough to go online and get info about both sides. Only idiotes dont listen to both sides even if they do choose just one side.

Both sides has merrits, but in the end with all specs aside it comes to down which one performs and performs well. The answer is both.

Am I in the right forum?!? This must be the blu-ray forum right!?! OH, I guess not. It's the HD-DVD forum. I just assumed based on all the blu-ray supporters here calling HD-DVD the weaker format that this must be the Blu-Ray forum. Or Digitalbits, or maybe even blu-ray.com.
Oh, that's right. I forget AVS does not have a smackdown area, so I get to read blu-ray fanboys no matter which forum I enter.
And I get to read the posts the HD DVD fans who's members double those of blu-ray here. :rolleyes:

This has to be the most utterly retarded event I've ever witnessed. Whats so crazy is, a bunch of techy nerds debating the technical superiority of either format has absolutely ZERO bearing on what the real consumer actually looks for. It kills me that these people don't realize that folks like us here at AVS are the far minority. The consumer who is going to determine the winner does not give two sh!ts and a giggle about the technical jargon or superiority of one format over the other. They don't care that Blu-Ray has a hard scratch resistant coating, because most people watch the movie a few times, and let it sit in its case where it doesnt get mauled up. The average person doesnt care about which audio codec the disc uses, or how the video is compressed. The average person does not care about interractive features or how much room there is on a disc to squeeze extra crap. The average person just does not $#@$ing care about all of this, they simply want it to be inexpensive, have a wide selection of movies that look good (which DVD quality to most folks is still good enough), and not have to make confusing choices about upgrading to a new format.


I agree 100%. why should the people care how its done? it doesnt really matter as long as the movie looks great and sounds great.

This was posted by the Mod over there


"Update: some peepz from the AVS forums have contacted me.

Some more info on the nature of the debate.

This debate is not a dick-measuring contest.

The purpose of this debate is to allow our readers to inform themselves on the the ongoing format competition. Although some people in our forums have chosen their format, most of us maintain an open mind.

When both sides do choose someone to come on, I will discuss with them the best way to conduct the debate. For now I suggest that the reps of both camps will start out by posting an opening statement on their format. Afterwards, I will ask questions to each side and let them answer it and then let the other side rebuttal or post a counter-point.

BTW, this thread is NOT THE DEBATE THREAD.

Stay tuned for details."

This whole thing is rediculous. Who the hell can take someone who talks like that serious?

And this too...

"Dude, I'm trying to get both sides to come and talk, so please shut the f*ck up.

If you have a problem with them, take it some where else.

Any bashing on this this thread will get your account suspended."

I had to edit the f word so it would show up. He the word correctly

And this too...

"Dude, I'm trying to get both sides to come and talk, so please shut the f*ck up.

If you have a problem with them, take it some where else.

Any bashing on this this thread will get your account suspended."

I had to edit the f word so it would show up. He the word correctly

Sounds like they have a P53 PWNZ kid trying to put this together.

This debate of fanboy vs fanboy is dumb.
Like if a fanboy from either side is best qualified to represent a format.

I wont be tuning in or wasting time reading this "debate".
If toshiba, sony, and the studios did it I might waste my time reading it.....
but I wont waste my time reading what any fanboys have to say.
Thats about as useless as reading what bill hunt thinks or has to say...LOL!

I'll do it. I have been following the technical side of this stuff since its inception, and I have always wanted HDDVD to win because I do not want a content producer to be in charge or a format (Sony.)

Are you taking volunteers?

PLEASE TAKE NOTE:

AVS Forum as a company is NEUTRAL on the issue of the format war. We work closely with both format providers. (Side note...Both camps were sponsors and guests and the CEDIA AVS Forum party.)

Seeing this was an offer not extended to any other site other than AVS and Blu-ray.com, someone seems to not understand the above. The offer did not ask for forum members, they asked for a representative from this site to take part in an e-mail that was sent. AVS will not take part, as we can not, and they were informed about this.

BE IT KNOWN...Anyone who enters into this debate IS NOT REPRESENTING AVS FORUM. You may be a member here, as on other various sites, but please do not speak for this site. This includes the mods.

All we can see come from this is just more attacks between members and this has already started to happen.

With this said, we will now close this thread and threads on the same debate subject. Lets face it, we already have enough debate on the formats as it is. Now lets go watch a movie.

Thank you all.