Kosty or Lee Stewart

Speaking of timing...

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that, for an honest Format "Debate," this is very, very short notice to get someone in who will represent HD DVD? The first post on SFTE is timestamped yesterday at 10:48 AM... that's, what... just over 24 hours?

Call me jaded, but this smacks of set-up... like Blu-ray.com has already picked their "ringer" well in advance of the offer to "debate" ever even being extended to AVS.

One side well-prepped, the other scrambling to get "someone" in on time.

Seems like a very Sony-esque contrivance, if you ask me. :( I'm in contact with Nelson over there by PM.

Don't thinks its as much of a setup as his (Nelson's) personality at work wanting to get things a moving.

It would be unreasonable to insist on tomorrow daytime, with such short notice, and evenings are always a more appropriate.

AFtr seeing how Nelson was treated at Blu-ray com a while back, I think he has a sincere interest at this.

I am willing to take him at his word on this.

If I do this, heck, maybe I'll get another HD DVD T-shirt out of the deal. I can then send it to Micheal Bay.

I imagine Wicky has Penton or Geek with him, yes?

Kosty, you are very knowledgeable on the subject, but Lee Stewart really has teeth when it comes to HD-DVD debates. I think you are qualified, but I think Lee could tear into em a little harder.

Oooh... bad idea, imo. He tends to have trouble keeping his facts straight. Kosty is a much better choice, again just my opinion.

I would also suggest Dave Vaughn and Josh Zyber as possible candidates.

Shall we start a poll?

Seconding, thirding? w/e, Kosty as well.

I nominate Kosty with rdjam to be his co-representative.

Shall we start a poll?

Let's.

Seconding, thirding? w/e, Kosty as well.
What about you?

What a Genius plan!

I need some comments to encourage me to do this, and to give me some advice on the format choice and rules of engagement..

I imagine I can have other people support me with information.

I imagine WickyWoo would have Penton and Geek.

I also imagine I can nicely represent the HD DVD perspective against WW.

I nominate Kosty with rdjam to be his co-representative.

No offense to RD but the Blu-ray guy is probably going to have someone more in-the-loop (read geek) shall we say, it'd only be fair to afford the HD guy the same benefit. I think you know who I'm hinting at...

No offense to RD but the Blu-ray guy is probably going to have someone more in-the-loop (read geek) shall we say, it'd only be fair to afford the HD guy the same benefit. I think you know who I'm hinting at...

+1

Amir's the obvious choice for ringer/co-representative/whatever you wanna call it.

No offense to RD but the Blu-ray guy is probably going to have someone more in-the-loop (read geek) shall we say, it'd only be fair to afford the HD guy the same benefit. I think you know who I'm hinting at...

Amir is retired:) Although he may come out of retirement for this...

What about you?

I have no delusions of being as eloquent as Kosty on said matters, flattered though. Besides.. I've had a BD player longer than some of those guys... would seem weird.

From the first post at that site:

It looks like the Blu-ray.com people have responded and are willing to debate in a civilized manner.

Which is more than I can say for the AVS/HD DVD camp. My invitation was either moved or deleted faster that you can say "They killed Kenny!"

So, if anyone can contact a person from the AVS or any legit HD DVD forum to accept this denate, please refer them to me.

Update: some peepz from the AVS forums have contacted me.


Wow! Have fun with that one guys...

http://www.wendolonia.com/bm/thunderdome_fight.jpg

TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!!!!!!

Shall we start a poll?

No.

I think the mature people who are already gathering participants have good candidates in mind. They don't need a poll to decide.

I hope the debate stays clean and informative.
It would be interesting to watch a mature debate for once.

http://www.wendolonia.com/bm/thunderdome_fight.jpg

TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!!!!!!

lmao, mad at myself for not thinking of it first. I only hope this is a "real" debate and not 2:1! 2:1! 2:1! omgz!

From the first post at that site:

It looks like the Blu-ray.com people have responded and are willing to debate in a civilized manner.

Which is more than I can say for the AVS/HD DVD camp. My invitation was either moved or deleted faster that you can say "They killed Kenny!"

So, if anyone can contact a person from the AVS or any legit HD DVD forum to accept this denate, please refer them to me.

Update: some peepz from the AVS forums have contacted me.


Wow! Have fun with that one guys...
I like how you took that post out of context. (the usual fanboi remark :rolleyes:)

If you read on, you will see that it was most likely a misunderstanding why his thread/request got deleted here and Nelson was a little surprised.

Kosty is a good choice....

but i think Amir could easily answer any of their questions.

lmao, mad at myself for not thinking of it first. I only hope this is a "real" debate and not 2:1! 2:1! 2:1! omgz!
Or PiP, PiP, PiP, Ethernet !!!!!! FTW !!!!!!

Kosty is kool in my book, I'll second Amir as co-rep.

Read posts 3, 4, 5 and 7 at that site, then read post 12 by the administrator and then ask yourself what is really going on.

I PM'ed him early yesterday, I haven't heard from him yet, if anyone is able to get in touch with him, please do so, just to at least know if he's interested at all. Thanx.

Or PiP, PiP, PiP, Ethernet !!!!!! FTW !!!!!!

Granted although I think mandatory features are more important than todays sales numbers but valid point just the same.

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg



+6

I think the details are still up in the air.

I can do it if it is not Thursday daytime.

I will do it if no one has any real objections. Or if anyone else wants to do it......

PM me or post here with any thoughts.

I've long stated I think that I will eventually get a Blu-ray player, with BD-Live and 1.1. or 2.0 profile, when their at the right price, just to watch Sony content alone, since I'm a home theater HD fan.

I currently have a Toshiba HD XA1 and Toshiba HD XA2.

What do you guys think of me representing the HD DVD point of view?

I think it adds undue legitimacy to Bay's website and the extreme fanboi Blu-ray.com site. But, if Kosty really want's to do it, he has my support as a reasonable, rational HD DVD supporter who will stick to the facts & issues.

I think the details are still up in the air.

I can do it if it is not Thursday daytime.

I will do it if no one has any real objections. Or if anyone else wants to do it......

PM me or post here with any thoughts.

I've long stated I think that I will eventually get a Blu-ray player, with BD-Live and 1.1. or 2.0 profile, when their at the right price, just to watch Sony content alone, since I'm a home theater HD fan.

I currently have a Toshiba HD XA1 and Toshiba HD XA2.

What do you guys think of me representing the HD DVD point of view?

I think you'd do an excellent job ... but I still think it's a trap.

Kosty/Amir would be a good choice I think, but has anyone contacted Amir to see if he would be interested yet?

Also, We gotta realize that this may not be workable in Kosty's schedule. I'm surprised some of the Red Bloods *KIDDING* (had to say it since Blu Ray has the Blu Bloods) haven't come out to accept.

Read posts 3, 4, 5 and 7 at that site, then read post 12 by the administrator and then ask yourself what is really going on.

yeah, I really don't know why anyone is bothering with this. there's plenty of info on the web that they can link to if the goal is to inform people.

Granted although I think mandatory features are more important than todays sales numbers but valid point just the same.
What I would like to hear and see in the debate is the CURRENT pros/cons/advantages/weaknesses of both formats. Then maybe move on to what future specs/implementations(wish list/speculation) can provide to either formant once that has all been hashed out.

+6



I think it adds undue legitimacy to Bay's website and the extreme fanboi Blu-ray.com site. But, if Kosty really want's to do it, he has my support as a reasonable, rational HD DVD supporter who will stick to the facts & issues.

Keeping BD.com out of it for a second, it IS Bay's site if I'm not mistaken, not sure how this could/would add/subtract legitimacy from that, in other words it'll still be his site tomorrow. Unless you just meant notoriety, if so he really couldn't get much more in A/V circles atm.

Kosty/Amir would be a good choice I think, but has anyone contacted Amir to see if he would be interested yet?

I've PMed him. He is currently on the road. He did let the new management team for HD DVD know, but stated that it would be up to them to respond.:(

I need some comments to encourage me to do this, and to give me some advice on the format choice and rules of engagement..

I imagine I can have other people support me with information.

I imagine WickyWoo would have Penton and Geek.
I also imagine I can nicely represent the HD DVD perspective against WW.

:eek: Go for it.

yeah, I really don't know why anyone is bothering with this. there's plenty of info on the web that they can link to if the goal is to inform people.
There's also information that may not be on the web and sometimes a debate brings forth new information that may have not been discussed.
The Insiders thread was kind of that place here but it's run it's course and lost it's luster/intent.

I'm expecting that this debate will be with participants from both formats and no fanboi comments flaming in the middle.

The ratio could be true. But that I could attribute to the fact that people on AVS are more intelligent that the average folks out there, more educated and hence more able to make up their minds. They do not need to be part of a propaganda machine to feel a sense of value....

I would disagree with that all together. Intelligence levels here are no different than the average public... HD DVD is priced right and that is the main driving force here in my opinion.

I need some comments to encourage me to do this, and to give me some advice on the format choice and rules of engagement..

I imagine I can have other people support me with information.
I can help you but if the debate is after 8:00pm EST I'm out. I'm also a member of Red Sox Nation...:p

I'm in contact with Nelson over there by PM.

Don't thinks its as much of a setup as his (Nelson's) personality at work wanting to get things a moving.

It would be unreasonable to insist on tomorrow daytime, with such short notice, and evenings are always a more appropriate.

AFtr seeing how Nelson was treated at Blu-ray com a while back, I think he has a sincere interest at this.

I am willing to take him at his word on this.

If I do this, heck, maybe I'll get another HD DVD T-shirt out of the deal. I can then send it to Micheal Bay.Well, I trust that you'd know better than I then Kosty. :)

Whoever ultimately carries the torch, a couple of questions that I would really like to hear the "other" side squirm to try and answer are simply these:
"Purely from a quality-of-playback perspective, what meaningful advantage does Blu-ray provide to the average person that HD DVD doesn't?"
Then, assuming they blather something like "more capacity for lossless audio,"
"What kind of investments in A/V gear (other than the significantly more expensive Blu-ray player, of course) are required in order for the average person to detect this advantage?"

What I would like to hear and see in the debate is the CURRENT pros/cons/advantages/weaknesses of both formats. Then maybe move on to what future specs/implementations(wish list/speculation) can provide to either formant once that has all been hashed out.

Question, (just one example) how do you define in a meaningful way; what "lossless" audio means to the average consumer, or have I missed the entire point here, is this actually for the uninitiated's benefit? if not then this probably is a big ol' waste of time :)

In other words, what kind of example are you going to use for "lossless" if you say lossless is like CD and lossy is like MP3....... millions of people will assume lossy is the way to go. All hail the iPod.

This debate needs to be about Current Players and Capabilities not the future. It is a lot easier to Promise the Future then Deliver the Present.

I agree that this looks more like a Witch hunt/Lynching then an "Informed Debate"

Kosty: Good luck. Hopefully this wont degenerate into a shouting match.

What I would like to hear and see in the debate is the CURRENT pros/cons/advantages/weaknesses of both formats. Then maybe move on to what future specs/implementations(wish list/speculation) can provide to either formant once that has all been hashed out.

I say leave out all the "on paper" and possible future upgrades stuff. Use real world examples. Compare video and audio quality of current films. Compare currently impemented features and extras. And as with anything, talk about price.

By looking at and debating audio/video/features of high rated films like Transformers and F4, people can then go home and compare themselves.

I'm expecting that this debate will be with participants from both formats and no fanboi comments flaming in the middle.

I guess you are more optomistic than I am. I think if they wanted a real debate they should involve insiders..not just throw out an open invitation to basically anyone 24 hours before they want to have it. It seems hastily thrown together and as such I don't really expect much out of it..other than it will resemble one of the many flame threads we already have here.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5747/transformers2007vv6.jpg

One shall stand, one shall fall!

Of course Kosty is Prime

Question, (just one example) how do you define in a meaningful way; what "lossless" audio means to the average consumer, or have I missed the entire point here, is this actually for the uninitiated's benefit? if not then this probably is a big ol' waste of time :)

In other words, what kind of example are you going to use for "lossless" if you say lossless is like CD and lossy is like MP3....... millions of people will assume lossy is the way to go. All hail the iPod.
Who said anything about lossy or lossless. It gets old reading fanbois narrowminded viewpoints and I'm just curious to see if "mature" people can debate in a civilized manner with no flaming, you know, like how the Insiders Thread use to be.
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1966284/2/istockphoto_1966284_race_horse_in_action.jpg

I would disagree with that all together. Intelligence levels here are no different than the average public... HD DVD is priced right and that is the main driving force here in my opinion.

Not price, value.

This has been prtty obvious for about a year now, but the discussions have gotten so insular that no one seems to realize the hypocrisy of accepting all HD DVD PR releases at face value (how exactly did Paramount get sales TO CUSTOMERS data in one day for Transformers???) while doubting every BD press release (give me another souce besides a Sony-purchased study that shows that BD standalones sold more in July).

Or another easy example, the religious acceptance here of web journalist Boulet's sudden (and anonymous) "insider" information that contradicted actual announced data on BD production, while ignoring multiple anonymous VIacom sources reported by The New York Times on the Toshiba payoff, even after Toshiba admitted they paid incentives to Paramount!

It's become pathetic, and I see little attempt to reign it in with any set of standards.


Paramount released that information at almost the exact HOUR that WB released their 300 first week sales information. That was never questioned. BD fans were even saying that if there wasn't a press release that day that TF couldn't have sold 100k.

Sony PR releases are questioned due to the horrendous history they have had in misleading people. Period. It is of their own making. If you know someone has been lying to you you cannot trust them blindly anymore. Certainly there has been some people that refuse to believe any bad news and demand too many sources and links but IMHO that is atleast as prevalent in BD circles.

As far as the payoff goes BD folks have overstated this 100X over. Sure there were incentives. But there was never 150M in cash. Worse, there is a link around here that a person in the industry wrote about how immediately after the announcement he and others were getting info from Sony's PR firm about a payoff and sure enough the next day the NYT report came out. The 150M number seems a little suspect to me and everything that Toshiba has said publicly included "not even close" or something along those lines.

Who said anything about lossy or lossless. It gets old reading fanbois narrowminded viewpoints and I'm just curious to see if "mature" people can debate in a civilized manner with no flaming, you know, like how the Insiders Thread use to be.

Care to clarify what you meant in post 281 then? Surely you'll agree that lossless could be considered a "pros/cons/advantages/weaknesses of both formats" ? :confused: I've been here quite a while, I don't ever remember the insiders thread being like that :)

As far as the payoff goes BD folks have overstated this 100X over. Sure there were incentives. But there was never 150M in cash.

Could be overstated, could be understated. None of us really know the exact amount.

I guess you are more optomistic than I am. I think if they wanted a real debate they should involve insiders..not just throw out an open invitation to basically anyone 24 hours before they want to have it. It seems hastily thrown together and as such I don't really expect much out of it..other than it will resemble one of the many flame threads we already have here.
I agree that if they get the typical immature fanbois to debate, it will be useless but Kosty brought this up so I feel it must be a legitimate debate amoung mature format experts.

It seems the fanbois here are the ones flaying their arms in a frenzy and making it out to be trojan horse debate for HD DVD to fail and fall on it's face.
The paranoia is deafing here sometimes.

I agree that if they get the typical immature fanbois to debate, it will be useless but Kosty brought this up so I feel it must be a legitimate debate amoung mature format experts.

It seems the fanbois here are the ones flaying their arms in a frenzy and making it out to be trojan horse debate for HD DVD to fail and fall on it's face.
The paranoia is deafing here sometimes.

Sadly you're guilty of a bit of arm flaying as well, just a few posts earlier, that was uncalled for. I was trying to have one of these "mature debates" you referred to.

My suggestion would be to get a list of the questions that could be reviewed and prepared for BEFORE the actual debate begins. That way, it could be determined if the debate is a sham or is it a real debate.

My suggestion would be to get a list of the questions that could be reviewed and prepared for BEFORE the actual debate begins. That way, it could be determined if the debate is a sham or is it a real debate.

Why do I have a sinking suspicion that won't fly. Oh, must be the pessimist in me :)

I agree that if they get the typical immature fanbois to debate, it will be useless but Kosty brought this up so I feel it must be a legitimate debate amoung mature format experts.

It seems the fanbois here are the ones flaying their arms in a frenzy and making it out to be trojan horse debate for HD DVD to fail and fall on it's face.
The paranoia is deafing here sometimes.When dealing with an opponent who, time and time again, has openly displayed an appalling lack of honor and integrity, it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of motive when they approach you, ostensibly, with an olive branch.

Why do I have a sinking suspicion that won't fly. Oh, must be the pessimist in me :)

That would be too bad if your suspisions are correct. IMO a debate is like a jury trial. There is necessary preparation before it starts. Evidence and proof are required . . . or else is becomes opinion versus opinion - and that is totally worthless.

To have someone - anyone - show up at a website that is hosting a debate with no prior knowledge of what is expected . . . THAT is a recipe for disaster.

It was stated that the lack of lossless audio is meaningless to the average home video enthusiast, and that is true. However, most of the people here are not that average person. For those that do have the HDMI receivers and good speakers to go with it, lossless audio does matter. Sure the picture of HD-DVD and Blu-ray are the same; however, the bitrate is not. So, other than discussing cost of stand alone players, you cannot say that HD-DVD is the optimum format as it relates to the best picture and sound for Bay's movies. Many movies I firmly believe either format would be fine, but a movie like Transformers (or really any other high octane movie) you want the 1080p transfer with lossless sound. If I did not have the receiver to handle it, I would be more than fine with HD-DVD.

My suggestion would be to get a list of the questions that could be reviewed and prepared for BEFORE the actual debate begins. That way, it could be determined if the debate is a sham or is it a real debate.

I totally agree. have both parties review the questions and exchange their intial responses for eachothers review, and have a nuetral mediator oversee said exchange, this allows the debate to start off healthy and also facilities a higher level of acucracy and accountability

Alexander Revisited on BR has a Dolby Digital track at 640kbs, should we argue that BR is not a viable medium for this movie?

The flagship BD player (PS3) is incapable of playing lossless or any other than the 640 track through optical. Meaning in order to achieve lossless you would need to have an HDMI connection and a receiver that is HDMI compatible. This is a new technology so basically everyone that has a receiver more than 1 1/2 yrs old on a PS3 is getting a garbage audio track (atleast in comparison to the 1.5mbps/TrueHd/etc). The funny thing is many don't even know and present their AQ as lossless when they are incapable of achieving such a result.

Quoted


Blu-Rays play in my PS3.

Rumor has it that since it can play DVD's, it's only a firmware update away from playing HD DVD's too.


You know, I actually believe that. I think all the Blu Ray players could play HD DVD's with a FW update. Too bad they don't issue such an update and make all the players dual players but then that's not what they want at this time.

-Brian

If the legalities of that could be worked out then I would be once happy couch spud

IT's funny that so many here are worried this is some sort of pro-BD trap; if you read the BD.com thread, they spent quite a while discussing whether it was a pro-HD DVD trap.

I don't know what good or bad will come from it (if either) but it seems unlikely that this is at trap aimed at anyone.

It was stated that the lack of lossless audio is meaningless to the average home video enthusiast, and that is true. However, most of the people here are not that average person. For those that do have the HDMI receivers and good speakers to go with it, lossless audio does matter. Sure the picture of HD-DVD and Blu-ray are the same; however, the bitrate is not. So, other than discussing cost of stand alone players, you cannot say that HD-DVD is the optimum format as it relates to the best picture and sound for Bay's movies. Many movies I firmly believe either format would be fine, but a movie like Transformers (or really any other high octane movie) you want the 1080p transfer with lossless sound. If I did not have the receiver to handle it, I would be more than fine with HD-DVD.

While I would agree that most people here are not average wrt Technology, I don't know that I would say most people here have the gear for lossless. It's unfortunate that so much is being made out of this lossless versus lossy thing -- over and over. There have been several posters here that have trumpted how much better lossless sounds -- only to be enlightened later that they'd have a hard time getting lossless via the SPDIF connection. *shrug*

Bitrate has also shown to not be a major issue. Remember, bitrate cannot be discussed alone. If the movie is a set length, then by upping the bitrate, you are also chewing into capacity. IOW: a 118 minute movie at 15 mbps is going to use a good percentage less space than the same movie at 20 mbps. Now, we have this talk about lossless. That will chew up bitrate as well. PCM at 6 mbps, for example, is using 400% more bandwidth than a DD+ stream at 1.5 mbps (ie: it's not free). Now, throw in the fact that these codecs aren't mandatory on Blu-ray players and studios have to throw other encodes in there -- that are also using up that same bandwidth pool. Basically, while Blu-ray may have more bandwidth, it is also stuffing more things in there than consumers cannot take advantage of (ie: you can't listen to a PCM English and PCM German track at the same time, yet both are present and using bandwidth the whole time).

So are the video encodes on Blu-ray really using a higher bitrate when compared to HD DVD? Dunno ... I don't think any of us really has access to that information (bit rate meters aren't quite 'accurate'). Do we know that both formats can give us great PQ and AQ? Yup. So what the big deal? Again ... we're putting more stock into a 'format type' here than the quality of the mater; which, imo, is leaps and bounds more important.

I'm disappointed in some of the rhetoric I'm hearing. Do your HD DVD facts not stand for themselves? I'm sure it's going to be lopsided, but if you truly believe in HD DVD, then you should be heard! All I see is a lack of stones by most of you. We BD guys have been outnumbered 2:1 on AVS for the entire format war. Does that mean we should just give up and go home?

Don't answer that. :)

For God's sake grow a pair! ....We BD guys have been outnumbered ......... Does that mean we should just give up and go home?Hey Sketcha, I'm signed up here "for the duration".:)

IT's funny that so many here are worried this is some sort of pro-BD trap; if you read the BD.com thread, they spent quite a while discussing whether it was a pro-HD DVD trap.

I don't know what good or bad will come from it (if either) but it seems unlikely that this is at trap aimed at anyone.

But the nature of the questions can be a trap themselves. I like all of you can think of at least 3 questions that would not have a good answer possible.

If the debate happens, I am sure it will get plenty of internet play.

And keep in mind that the debaters are nothing more than informed end users. They will not have information that might be needed to answer questions properly and factually.

And keep in mind that the debaters are nothing more than informed end users. They will not have information that might be needed to answer questions properly and factually.

That doesn't seem to stop anyone here :p Or is it scarier when people have to leave an area where they have the advantage of numbers to face honest questions that require factual answers?

I think the details are still up in the air.

I can do it if it is not Thursday daytime.

I will do it if no one has any real objections. Or if anyone else wants to do it......

PM me or post here with any thoughts.

I've long stated I think that I will eventually get a Blu-ray player, with BD-Live and 1.1. or 2.0 profile, when their at the right price, just to watch Sony content alone, since I'm a home theater HD fan.

I currently have a Toshiba HD XA1 and Toshiba HD XA2.

What do you guys think of me representing the HD DVD point of view?


No way!

You go get 'em Kosty!

That doesn't seem to stop anyone here :p Or is it scarier when people have to leave an area where they have the advantage of numbers to face honest questions that require factual answers?

I'll go do that right now, any bets on how long my account lasts over there? I'm reading 4 or 5 posts right now; that are flat out ********, I'd love to have an active account long enough to challenge those posts.

Can you guys even do this debate? The webmaster for MB's account seems to be saying...

"Now I hear some have been threaten by AVS with having their accounts suspended or banned if they participate in this debate.

Bummer."

Not to mention he was banned himself for offering the debate in the first place. Doesn't seem like avs is too keen on this.

Agreed...tired of this AVS forum is biased ********. Forum software usually has no bias. There's two forums for HD, two for blu. Then there's the "battle" forum where all the fanatic mouthbreathers can argue over the same crap every day. Not AVS' fault some choose to hide in the cult of the Blu forum....Forum software usually has no bias...You ought to spend some time browsing the two Blu-ray areas. On the threads there, it's not at all unusual to find a large number of postings by red Harpies who fly in and attempt to torment the Blu-ray posters and put down Blu-ray.

That doesn't seem to stop anyone here :p Or is it scarier when people have to leave an area where they have the advantage of numbers to face honest questions that require factual answers?

Ahhhh . . . who determines if the questions are honest? . . . or loaded?

Without an agenda - the debater is on the spot to provide an answer - if he can.

We know Bay's site is very pro BD so we have to assume that the questions will also be pro BD. Will that yield a fair debate?

IMO - no it won't.

Moderator

what ever is posted on another forum: so be it

Here on AVS we would ask that every poster take the high road in every post

Many Thanks :)

^^^^^^^^

I fear the worst if our poor AVS-fellow gets trapped by educated marketing guys in a propaganda session. Nevertheless, the more I think about this the more I have my doubts that this session would be any helpful for educating potential buyers about HD media. What would be the message of this session if a fan/customer who just bought the DVD or HD-DVD stumbles across that side? It could be "hey, do you know you just bought the wrong format because it gives you less bits per second" or "congrats, you got the right one with all the web features". In any case: he already bought his disc so this makes me wondering about what the real purpose of this session is.

You ought to spend some time browsing the two Blu-ray areas. On the threads there, it's not at all unusual to find a large number of postings by red Harpies who fly in and attempt to torment the Blu-ray posters and put down Blu-ray.

The same can be said about the HD DVD areas and Blu-Ray supporters, so what's the point?

To whoever ends up representing the HD-DVD side of this debate, I believe it is a losing argument to say that technically HD-DVD is equal or better than BR. Even as a stronger supporter of HD-DVD, I do not believe that is true.

Under the right circumstances, HD-DVD can be just as good, but there are too many IF's. If the home theater setup is not good enough, you may not hear a difference. If the projector is not good enough, you may not see a difference. If you are over 35 and no longer have perfect hearing, you may not hear a difference. And all those reviewers who gave <name of title here> 5/5, would it still be 5/5 under different circumstnces?

Of course we can pick up specific exceptions, but generally speaking, I believe that technically BR is better than HD-DVD. Therefore in your debate, you need to emphasize the strengths of HD-DVD, which are not technical. For example, do you want to give your money to a company such as Sony which has done so much to harm consumer's fair-use rights. Or put up with Fox's DB+. Or the low entry-level cost of the HD-DVD hardware. Or the silly appearance of putting a game console into your HiFi rack.

But if we start arguing that HD-DVD is technically better than BR, then we have lost the argument before we even start. And you can also argue that the better technical format doesn't always win.

You ought to spend some time browsing the two Blu-ray areas. On the threads there, it's not at all unusual to find a large number of postings by red Harpies who fly in and attempt to torment the Blu-ray posters and put down Blu-ray.

Er, well given the fact that blue guys do the same here...

But if we start arguing that HD-DVD is technically better than BR, then we have lost the argument before we even start.

Yeah but that would be kind of like debating tractors at a grain silo convention, related but not really on-topic. Luckily most of us watch movies not technicals, sometimes I have to wonder exactly what people are really doing with these discs..

And you really think the same crap doesn't happen in the HD DVD forum?:(:confused:

You ought to spend some time browsing the two Blu-ray areas. On the threads there, it's not at all unusual to find a large number of postings by red Harpies who fly in and attempt to torment the Blu-ray posters and put down Blu-ray.

Kosty is a good choice....

but i think Amir could easily answer any of their questions.
Not to offend anyone, but Amir would be my No1 choice ;) Kosty, Lee, and others qualify as well. I recommend to prepare good questions and detailed answers to potential questions before the session.

A WORD OF CAUTION!

Please review posts by the Administrator (Nelson) whose idea this debate was. Please read through some of his posts. I am not sure you are going to agree with the way he handles posters:

http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/search.php?searchid=13110

Yeah but that would be kind of like debating tractors at a grain silo convention, related but not really on-topic. Luckily most of us watch movies not technicals, sometimes I have to wonder exactly what people are really doing with these discs..

Then why not just watch the VHS copy? We are here because we care about movies and the technicals.

:DIf the legalities of that could be worked out then I would be once happy couch spud:)
lol
Same here

Then why not just watch the VHS copy? We are here before we care about movies and the technicals.

See this is what I'm talking about, are you implying VHS looks anywhere near as good as HD DVD? You want technicals? Ok.. no mandatory ethernet ports on BD players, lots of IME titles held up on Blu-ray due to.. wait for it... technical reasons. All I'm saying is there are pro's and con's to both formats.

IT's funny that so many here are worried this is some sort of pro-BD trap; if you read the BD.com thread, they spent quite a while discussing whether it was a pro-HD DVD trap.

I don't know what good or bad will come from it (if either) but it seems unlikely that this is at trap aimed at anyone.

IT'S A TRAP - Admiral Akbar

A WORD OF CAUTION!

Please review posts by the Administrator (Nelson) whose idea this debate was. Please read through some of his posts. I am not sure you are going to agree with the way he handles posters:

http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/search.php?searchid=13110

AVS bashing almost immediately left unchecked, then apparently bans a new member and tells him to "shut the *&%^ up" for making similar comments about BD.com members. I found that quite strange and made me take notice.

And you really think the same crap doesn't happen in the HD DVD forum?:(:confused:Dude, track back. I don't believe I said any such thing.

I'll go do that right now, any bets on how long my account lasts over there? I'm reading 4 or 5 posts right now; that are flat out ********, I'd love to have an active account long enough to challenge those posts.

If you take their preference into account and try to be polite about your disagreement and stick to the facts I don't think there would be a problem; certainly many other people manage to disagree with the majority opinion from what I've seen (I don't actually spend that much time there myself...I just like to have multiple sources of news).

A WORD OF CAUTION!

Please review posts by the Administrator (Nelson) whose idea this debate was. Please read through some of his posts. I am not sure you are going to agree with the way he handles posters:

http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/search.php?searchid=13110

heh... he's pretty fond of certain four letter words :)

To whoever ends up representing the HD-DVD side of this debate, I believe it is a losing argument to say that technically HD-DVD is equal or better than BR. Even as a stronger supporter of HD-DVD, I do not believe that is true.

Under the right circumstances, HD-DVD can be just as good, but there are too many IF's. If the home theater setup is not good enough, you may not hear a difference. If the projector is not good enough, you may not see a difference. If you are over 35 and no longer have perfect hearing, you may not hear a difference. And all those reviewers who gave <name of title here> 5/5, would it still be 5/5 under different circumstnces?

Of course we can pick up specific exceptions, but generally speaking, I believe that technically BR is better than HD-DVD. Therefore in your debate, you need to emphasize the strengths of HD-DVD, which are not technical. For example, do you want to give your money to a company such as Sony which has done so much to harm consumer's fair-use rights. Or put up with Fox's DB+. Or the low entry-level cost of the HD-DVD hardware. Or the silly appearance of putting a game console into your HiFi rack.

But if we start arguing that HD-DVD is technically better than BR, then we have lost the argument before we even start. And you can also argue that the better technical format doesn't always win.

oh pulleeezzz, dont believe that for a minute:rolleyes:...the Blu propaganda now comes in slurpees forget kool-aid:rolleyes:

All I'm saying is there are pro's and con's to both formats.

Which is exactly what I am saying. I support HD-DVD even though I believe BR is technically better, because there are other factors that are more important to me. But that doesn't mean we should just settle for what we are given.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE:

AVS Forum as a company is NEUTRAL on the issue of the format war. We work closely with both format providers. (Side note...Both camps were sponsors and guests and the CEDIA AVS Forum party.)

Seeing this was an offer not extended to any other site other than AVS and Blu-ray.com, someone seems to not understand the above. The offer did not ask for forum members, they asked for a representative from this site to take part in an e-mail that was sent. AVS will not take part, as we can not, and they were informed about this.

BE IT KNOWN...Anyone who enters into this debate IS NOT REPRESENTING AVS FORUM. You may be a member here, as on other various sites, but please do not speak for this site. This includes the mods.

All we can see come from this is just more attacks between members and this has already started to happen.

With this said, we will now close this thread and threads on the same debate subject. Lets face it, we already have enough debate on the formats as it is. Now lets go watch a movie.

Thank you all.