Micheal Bay's website is looking for pro HD DVD participant for moderated debate on that site.

Unknown to the format or date and time

I have real world client responsibilities that take up most of my Thursday daytime.

Webmaster is requesting 1200 EST selection of a participant.

Are they looking for anyone to debate on the issue of whether Michael Bay should come clean and admit that he's never actually seen a movie in his life and has no idea what they're supposed to look like, or if we should all stop waiting and just strap him to a cocaine-fueled rocket that we shoot into the sun? I mean, come on already!

Why wouldn't you ask this in one of the HD DVD forums?

And why would you post this same thing in the Nielsen thread and other threads? Isn't its own thread enough?

Hey,

I think Kosty may be trying to "get the word out" because he was recommended to be in the debate and can't, or doesn't want, to be in it. And they want to get a person representing the HD DVD side by noon today.

I would recommend Lee Stewart or Rdjam as they carry the torch for HD DVD more then anyone else who post frequently. (At least that's my impression.)

I told Michealbay's webmaster that we debate HD DVD and Blu Ray pretty much round the clock over here so the project was pointless but he wants to go through with it anyway.

-Brian

Lets hope some rational people get involved in this, and not the fanboys.

Why wouldn't you ask this in one of the HD DVD forums?Because everyone might be interested?

And why would you post this same thing in the Nielsen thread and other threads? Isn't its own thread enough?Because the deadline is 1200 EST.

To use your words...

Thanks for speaking for all the AVS members.

If you don't care then ignore it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11887249#post11887249

The fud has already started with a bluboy asking about boiling disk...I don't think it will work...

I'm not eligible for either side. I can't speak for HD DVD because I think that ultimately Blu-ray is the superior technology (and dozens HD DVD fans evidently disapprove of what I post on AVS). And I can't speak for Blu-ray because I bought into the rival format.

Why should anyone from the HD DVD side waste their time going onto a site who's pretty much made up their mind on which format is "better"? Of course they could always flip flop... IE: Michael Bay.

My question would be what's the point of this debate? How many people on the planet know of or care about Michael Bay's forum? What is the benefit for the "winner?"

Not to mention there's already a debate taking place. It's called AVSForum.com and it's been going on for awhile. Nothing will be said at Bay's forum that hasn't been said here. If he was interested in learning, he'd come here and quietly read. This is just a stunt. Maybe he should just get a couple stunt doubles to have the debate. One could be dressed up as ________ and the other as __________. I'll let you fill in the blanks (in your mind, not in this thread) with your favorite format zealots, I don't want to offend anyone.

Hey,

I think Kosty may be trying to "get the word out" because he was recommended to be in the debate and can't, or doesn't want, to be in it. And they want to get a person representing the HD DVD side by noon today.

I would recommend Lee Stewart or Rdjam as they carry the torch for HD DVD more then anyone else who post frequently. (At least that's my impression.)

I told Michealbay's webmaster that we debate HD DVD and Blu Ray pretty much round the clock over here so the project was pointless but he wants to go through with it anyway.

-Brian

Why thank you Brian.

I stand ready, willing and able to debate on behalf of HD DVD.

The fud has already started with a bluboy asking about boiling disk...I don't think it will work...


People laugh, but that DID work with CoM. Got a replacement copy of CoM, nonetheless.

This was his link. ^^^ So tell me how was it FUD? Sounds like a legit question.

But I don't think that's going to be the way the debate is set up. It's going to be a one on one style debate from what the Admin. says.

rob71,

Sometimes it works from what I've read but attention is not drawn to it because it's embarassing or something. I think the manufacturing process needs to be tweaked at one of the production houses. The boiling seems to reset something. I have also seen this reported for DVD's years ago that were coming from a Mexico facility.

It works, sometimes, but I think people would rather just return it and try for one that doesn't need it.

-Brian

rob71,

Sometimes it works from what I've read but attention is not drawn to it because it's embarassing or something. I think the manufacturing process needs to be tweaked at one of the production houses. The boiling seems to reset something. I have also seen this reported for DVD's years ago that were coming from a Mexico facility.

It works, sometimes, but I think people would rather just return it and try for one that doesn't need it.

-Brian

I'm just saying that if your on the outside looking in it might be a concern. Now would be a time to refute it. And in the interest of full disclosure, I don't think it's a major concern anymore. But that would be a good forum to dispel a lot of myths going around about both formats.:)

i joined.... should be interesting..

I am fair and balanced. :)

Why wouldn't you ask this in one of the HD DVD forums?

And why would you post this same thing in the Nielsen thread and other threads? Isn't its own thread enough?

+1

Lets hope some rational people get involved in this, and not the fanboys.

There is little difference here.

This was his link. ^^^ So tell me how was it FUD? Sounds like a legit question.

But I don't think that's going to be the way the debate is set up. It's going to be a one on one style debate from what the Admin. says.

Fud because it was meant to imply more troubles with HD DVD discs then there actually is. Like if I implied that people should worry about there whole BR collection getting disc rot and then providing several links to where multiple people have reported the same problem on more discs that what the industry explained was the problem

I'm sorry. But there really is nothing either side can say to convince the other side that format X is better than format Y. Regardless of which website it's on. I'm almost starting to believe that HDM is no different than gaming consoles where someone will always prefer their platform vs. the other. Not that one is better than the other.. more that one is different than the other. Like a PS3 owner vs. a Xbox 360 owner.

But the question is, it's very easy to put 3 different versions of a game but the number of games titles is about 0.01% of movie titles. I don't know if studios are willing to publish multiple copies of the same titles on different formats.

I'm sorry. But there really is nothing either side can say to convince the other side that format X is better than format Y. Regardless of which website it's on. I'm almost starting to believe that HDM is no different than gaming consoles where someone will always prefer their platform vs. the other. Not that one is better than the other.. more that one is different than the other. Like a PS3 owner vs. a Xbox 360 owner.

But the question is, it's very easy to put 3 different versions of a game but the number of games titles is about 0.01% of movie titles. I don't know if studios are willing to publish multiple copies of the same titles on different formats.

I agree. It almost seems like people are more interested in arguing/fighting about the formats than actually enjoying them, and it's usually about minutiae that affects almost no one at the consumer level. The arguing is usually done in a pretty arrogant and narrow-minded way too (by both sides), which probably adds to the anger from partisans.

Personally, I think a formal debate is pointless. Reminds me of an Apple vs. PC debate that ends up being 1,000 replies long and goes absolutely nowhere. The variance between people's wants/needs even on this forum is huge (for example, I love extras and get better audio from HD DVD, which is incredulous to some people), so why even try to reach a consensus?

I would participate in this debate but there is not much to debate. There are 2 formats both of equal video and audio quality. One has crippled specs and has millions of video games machines carrying it while the other came to the market 6 months earlier with full featured players and a completed spec. If HD DVD would have been built in to the 360 this war would have been over before it started, end of debate.

thats the thing... Blu Ray is winning because of the PS3.... now if and when the XBox 360 adds the internal hd-dvd.... HD-dvd will gain the advantage and get a real strong lead

Please post a link to the debate.

I do agree that a debate will be pointless. We have all heard the talking points about both formats ad nauseaum.

All that can be said . . . by both formats . . . is "wait and see what Q4 brings" and that will not be acceptable (though it is the truth) to either format debater because someone will be looking for a win - which will not happen. Life will reflect the outcome - a stalemate.

Holding the debate on "non-neutral grounds" is begging for a fiasco. Bad idea.

Yea I agree with the posts here so far this is a no win. I went into the Catholic church the other day . I was invited to speak about how Islam is a great religion.:D

Art

Holding the debate on "non-neutral grounds" is begging for a fiasco. Bad idea.

It's like having a Presidential debate with Bill O'Reilly as the moderator.

One thing I find curious, bluray.com have been asked put forward a BD speaker, obviously due their BD orientation. As AVS has been asked to to forward a HD DVD speaker, does this mean that AVS is as orientated towards HD DVD as bluray.com is to BD? :confused:

One thing I find curious, bluray.com have been asked put forward a BD speaker, obviously due their BD orientation. As AVS has been asked to to forward a HD DVD speaker, does this mean that AVS is as orientated towards HD DVD as bluray.com is to BD? :confused:

... and what happens if "we at AVS" nominate a happy BD supporter who is posting here in the AVS BD sections regularly? :D

As I stated in this thread www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=927697 already, I think the webmaster either has a misconception about AVS or something ugly is going on...

I do agree that a debate will be pointless. We have all heard the talking points about both formats ad nauseaum.

All that can be said . . . by both formats . . . is "wait and see what Q4 brings" and that will not be acceptable (though it is the truth) to either format debater because someone will be looking for a win - which will not happen. Life will reflect the outcome - a stalemate.

Why is it that most all of the HD-DVD supporters seem to be the only ones saying this debate will be pointless? What it is going to do is allow someone like Michael Bay to read up on and participate in what we go thru on a daily basis here on AVS. In the end, he is going to see that Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh its weaknesses and his movies can look and sound better on Blu-ray than HD-DVD given the proper treatment. Michael Bay has already attempted to see what the problem is with the HD-DVD sound issues with LFE/Bass being too low. This is a problem that is not HD-DVD related, however it sheds more light on the question as to why no lossless on the HD-DVD version by bringing attention to the audio. Had a lossless audio track been in place instead, there would be no such issue since the stream would be identical to the master.

I think Xylon - my favorite format neutral person on AVS - would be a great candidate for this...

... and what happens if "we at AVS" nominate a happy BD supporter who is posting here in the AVS BD sections regularly? :D

As I stated in this thread www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=927697 already, I think the webmaster either has a misconception about AVS or something ugly is going on...
Irrespective of official policy, it's probably true that, as blu-ray.com is the most Blu-leaning popular forum on the Internet, AVS is probably a good candidate to be the most HD DVD-leaning popular forum when you look at member constituency here. That's not a knock on the staff here - but the staff cannot dictate what the forum membership feels.

I believe Nelsen, the webmaster at Michael Bay's ShootForTheEdit forums, has posted comments indicating that this is his belief.

The fud has already started with a bluboy asking about boiling disk...I don't think it will work...

How is that fud, he linked to AVS posts where HD-DVD owners discuss this fix? I didn't even know about this, but it appears to be a real thing, and definetly seemed like a valid question for someone whoe is on the fence.

Is the boiling thing true or know I'm curious now. Still back on topic,

The debate has potential to be useful, but also can go the other way so ...

Had a lossless audio track been in place instead, there would be no such issue since the stream would be identical to the master.

You obviously don't know what lossless means.

It is not identical to the master. I could have a Dolby TrueHD version of the film in 8bit 12Khz and it would be lossless. No loss DUE TO COMPRESSION of the codec, not no loss compared to the master.

Why is it that most all of the HD-DVD supporters seem to be the only ones saying this debate will be pointless?

Because this debate has been beaten to death.

In the end, he is going to see that Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh its weaknesses and his movies can look and sound better on Blu-ray than HD-DVD given the proper treatment.

Yeah right.

Michael Bay has already attempted to see what the problem is with the HD-DVD sound issues with LFE/Bass being too low. This is a problem that is not HD-DVD related, however it sheds more light on the question as to why no lossless on the HD-DVD version by bringing attention to the audio. Had a lossless audio track been in place instead, there would be no such issue since the stream would be identical to the master.

A perfect example why this debate would be useless, assumptions fueled by bitterness.

Probably in Micheal Bays mind, the lack of Lossless audio on Transformers... is a big strike against HD-DVD and really does accentuate the limits of HDDVDs capability

The real point of this exercise... is to generate traffic on Michael Bays website.
What a Genius plan!

Fud because it was meant to imply more troubles with HD DVD discs then there actually is. Like if I implied that people should worry about there whole BR collection getting disc rot and then providing several links to where multiple people have reported the same problem on more discs that what the industry explained was the problem

Hmmm be carefull if that guy is on the fense and you attack his implications you can loose a customer or two just by shooting down what he may see as an honest question

I think Xylon - my favorite format neutral person on AVS - would be a great candidate for this...

Um, sure as long as another format neutral person is arguing the BD side.

Probably in Micheal Bays mind, the lack of Lossless audio on Transformers... is a big strike against HD-DVD and really does accentuate the limits of HDDVDs capability

The real point of this exercise... is to generate traffic on Michael Bays website.
What a Genius plan!

Yes I'd like to hear Micheal tell us exactly what's wrong with his disc.

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Seriously. Page one of that stupid thread already has the BD fanboys like doby trashing AVS and the other Blu-ray.com sheep go right in lockstep.

I'm serious guys, you are asking for trouble if you participate in this. There is no way this is going to be fair, and no way it's going to be productive.

I went to the Bay site and I don't trust the moderator. He seems as though he already has a bias, maybe more to AVS than HD DVD. But most defentatly to HD DVD.


Thats just the felling I got from reading his comments. Who ever goes to this debate has to walk on thin Ice Because of this. Good Luck:(

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Seriously. Page one of that stupid thread already has the BD fanboys like doby trashing AVS and the other Blu-ray.com sheep go right in lockstep.

I'm serious guys, you are asking for trouble if you participate in this. There is no way this is going to be fair, and no way it's going to be productive.

+1

I would recommend Lee Stewart or Rdjam as they carry the torch for HD DVD more then anyone else who post frequently. (At least that's my impression.)



I'd go with that recommendation.

Probably in Micheal Bays mind, the lack of Lossless audio on Transformers... is a big strike against HD-DVD and really does accentuate the limits of HDDVDs capability

The real point of this exercise... is to generate traffic on Michael Bays website.
What a Genius plan!

I agree that this is a move to get a lot of people to join their site.. However No lossless audio on the HD-DVD version is a HUGE negative in Michael bay's eyes and I'm sure this will be discussed on his forum to death.. We already know exactly what will be discussed since these discussions have already happened here. However Michael might make some more personal comments about what he thinks which may not be so kind to HD-DVD and that will be big news even though many on this forum don't feel a Director's opinion means anything.. I feel what Bay thinks and Spielberg thinks about this format war is very important and may have a bigger impact than one may think.. Michael bay was upset at the paramount 150 million incentive deal that made them go exclusive. Spielberg was also upset at this and both have spoken about it and their future relationship with Paramount. In either case, the importance of what these directors think brings controversy and makes headlines which cannot be good for HD-DVD if they are negative towards them.. Michael bay seems to be a stickler for high audio and video quality and seems to be in the same league as Richard Casey is by saying the SD-DVD could have been better in an interview had he had some input and helped work on it with the DVD team.. This debate will be interesting to say the least and already it is accomplishing their main goal which is to bring more people to their site and create traffic. However Michael bay may have been the one to ask for such a debate in the first place which would make it seem more important. We shall see...

If you check the duplicate thread over at blu-ray.com webmaster@michaelbay when asked which format Michael Bay prefers posted a link to the USA Today article. It's nice to Michael Bay is rich enough to replace his player every time a new spec is released. I may be more receptive to blu-ray if I didn't have to plop down $500 dollars for a crippled stand alone player. I have a kid that depends on my income as much as I do and blowing 5 bills to watch some Disney movies in HD knowing that the specs are incomplete and I will want to replace my player when they are just doesn't jive in my household.

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Seriously. Page one of that stupid thread already has the BD fanboys like doby trashing AVS and the other Blu-ray.com sheep go right in lockstep.

I'm serious guys, you are asking for trouble if you participate in this. There is no way this is going to be fair, and no way it's going to be productive.

You might be right. Michael Bay is probably upset that Transformers doesnt have lossless audio. And he is right, the lack of lossless really does accentuate the technical limits of HD-DVD.

The lack of LFE on the HDDVD soundtrack draws more attention to the fact that transformers doesnt include the highest quality audio format.

I am not saying that the LFE thing is HDDVDs fault, but if you are already upset about the missing lossless track, then you get an HD-DVD that has audio problems.... you start to make a connection, even if the lack of LFE isnt the fault of HDDVDs technical capabilities.

You might be right. Michael Bay is probably upset that Transformers doesnt have lossless audio. And he is right, the lack of lossless really does accentuate the technical limits of HD-DVD.

The lack of LFE on the HDDVD soundtrack draws more attention to the fact that transformers doesnt include the highest quality audio format.

I am not saying that the LFE thing is HDDVDs fault, but if you are already upset about the missing lossless track, then you get an HD-DVD that has audio problems.... you start to make a connection, even if the lack of LFE isnt the fault of HDDVDs technical capabilities.

I'm betting he doesn't even care about that. And a select few people seem to have this LFE problem and didn't exactly stop reviewers from rating it perfect.

Probably in Micheal Bays mind, the lack of Lossless audio on Transformers...

Why?

More people have A/V systems setup to play DD+. So more people will enjoy than could lossless.

Out of ALL the Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies I have seen, many of them lossless, Transformers audio was unsurpassed.

And he is right, the lack of lossless really does accentuate the technical limits of HD-DVD.

No it doesn't? You don't think they could have fit a TrueHD track on a double disk set? :rolleyes:

One thing I find curious, bluray.com have been asked put forward a BD speaker, obviously due their BD orientation. As AVS has been asked to to forward a HD DVD speaker, does this mean that AVS is as orientated towards HD DVD as bluray.com is to BD? :confused:

Yes, that is exactly what it means.

AVS is 2:1 pro HD DVD.

AVS is 2:1 pro HD DVD.

For good reason.

Instead of wasting everyones time just pick any thread over here and cut and paste it over there...next

One thing I find curious, bluray.com have been asked put forward a BD speaker, obviously due their BD orientation. As AVS has been asked to to forward a HD DVD speaker, does this mean that AVS is as orientated towards HD DVD as bluray.com is to BD? :confused:
Not quite... but close. ;)

Why?

More people have A/V systems setup to play DD+. So more people will enjoy than could lossless.

Out of ALL the Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies I have seen, many of them lossless, Transformers audio was unsurpassed.

With a quote like that... why do you guys get upset when he infers that HDDVD fans do not have a "Critical eye" or mindset. How often do you argue with DD+ is good enough. More compression is good etc.

Michael Bay isnt most people. He probably has the capability to enjoy lossless. And he wants people to hear the movie the way he intended it to be.

1) He see's that Lossless isnt included. Why? Because it was sacrificed for good enough

2) People say that the movie is lacking LFE.

So when you have those two in combination, while they may not be directly related. People may make that connection. And in the least, it does draw attention to the fact that lossless wasnt included, for whatever reason.

You might be right. Michael Bay is probably upset that Transformers doesnt have lossless audio. And he is right, the lack of lossless really does accentuate the technical limits of HD-DVD.

The lack of LFE on the HDDVD soundtrack draws more attention to the fact that transformers doesnt include the highest quality audio format.

I am not saying that the LFE thing is HDDVDs fault, but if you are already upset about the missing lossless track, then you get an HD-DVD that has audio problems.... you start to make a connection, even if the lack of LFE isnt the fault of HDDVDs technical capabilities.

I agree with this as I have mentioned this already in a few posts. It seems the HD-DVD supporters are going to have a hard time convincing anybody why they should support HD-DVD when it can't deliver the goods, especially on their biggest release of the year...Transformers....

I'm disappointed in some of the rhetoric I'm hearing. Do your HD DVD facts not stand for themselves? I'm sure it's going to be lopsided, but if you truly believe in HD DVD, then you should be heard! All I see is a lack of stones by most of you. We BD guys have been outnumbered 2:1 on AVS for the entire format war. Does that mean we should just give up and go home?

Don't answer that. :)

For God's sake grow a pair!

No it doesn't? You don't think they could have fit a TrueHD track on a double disk set? :rolleyes:

Thats what I am saying, they couldnt include lossless on a double disc set?

That really accentuates the limits of HDDVDs technical capabilities.

I agree with this as I have mentioned this already in a few posts. It seems the HD-DVD supporters are going to have a hard time convincing anybody why they should support HD-DVD when it can't deliver the goods, especially on their biggest release of the year...Transformers....


Yeah, because being the highest selling HDM on either format in a single week didn't do it. :rolleyes:

You guys are amazing.

It doesn't help when senior members of AVSF like Grubert and dobyblue head over to that forum and portray as if we are fawning HD-DVD sycophants here, constantly posting BD in bad light. Even on a neutral forum, they don't have one thing positive to say about HD-DVD.

The disc rot on The Prestige was an isolated issue "only trumpeted" on AVSF, while this member does nothing to discount the "boil the Transformers HD-DVD to cure playback issues" rumor being perpetrated in that very thread.

From Blu-ray vs HD-DVD debate - Page 5 - The Official Michael Bay Forums (http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3194#post3194)


Junior Member

Posts: 8
Join Date: Sep 2007

Default Today, 08:01 AM


Of course replication issues also effect the Blu ray tech as well. There was much talk about disc rot with Blu Ray. Again, like HD DVD, this was a replication issue and isolated. The protective coating on some Blu ray discs got contaminated during production. Several months latter the disc would get spoty/cloudy and the players could not read them.
This was actually on less than 100 copies of The Prestige and there was certainly not "much talk" about it outside of the AVS Forum, where people were lead to believe it was either widespread or about to be.

and


Junior Member

Posts: 8
Join Date: Sep 2007

Yesterday, 12:15 PM

at The Official Michael Bay Forums - View Single Post - Blu-ray vs HD-DVD debate (http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3027&postcount=1)

So I've invited both the Blu-ray.com forums and the AVS forum to a moderated debate dealing with their formats.

Hello,

My name is Nelson and I'm the webmaster for the official Michael Bay site (Michaelbay.com) and the admin for Michael Bay's Shoot for the Edit (SFTE) forums.

I am here to extend an invitation to a civil debate on the SFTE forums on the subject of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. An invitation has also gone out to members of AVS.com/Blu-ray forum. The debate will be moderated by me and will be amongst one person representing Blu-ray.com forum and one person representing the AVS forum.

Please choose ONE person among you to represent your forum. Let that person contact me at nelson@michaelbay.com so I can set up the debate.

Also, when you do select that one person to represent you, that person should have 3 to 5 question they are willing to ask the other side.

It looks like the Blu-ray.com people have responded and are willing to debate in a civilized manner.

Which is more than I can say for the AVS/HD DVD camp. My invitation was either moved or deleted faster that you can say "They killed Kenny!"

So, if anyone can contact a person from the AVS or any legit HD DVD forum to accept this denate, please refer them to me.

Update: some peepz from the AVS forums have contacted me.

Some more info on the nature of the debate.

This debate is not a dick-measuring contest.

The purpose of this debate is to allow our readers to inform themselves on the the ongoing format competition. Although some people in our forums have chosen their format, most of us maintain an open mind.

When both sides do choose someone to come on, I will discuss with them the best way to conduct the debate. For now I suggest that the reps of both camps will start out by posting an opening statement on their format. Afterwards, I will ask questions to each side and let them answer it and then let the other side rebuttal or post a counter-point.

BTW, this thread is NOT THE DEBATE THREAD.

Stay tuned for details.

Unfortunately that's the way AVS' HD DVD area is run.
If it's based on facts and statistics, it's likely positive for Blu-ray and deleted.
If it's based on whim and opinion, it's likely from the HD DVD crowd and is allowed to continue unchecked.

:rolleyes: Way to go spreading FUD doby !! I wonder if you will get infraction points for biting the hand that feeds. :confused:

Michael Bay isnt most people. He probably has the capability to enjoy lossless.


Yes, for Transformers, Bay has the capability to enjoy lossless for both video and audio. I dont think it would be that hard for him to get the masters :D

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Seriously. Page one of that stupid thread already has the BD fanboys like doby trashing AVS and the other Blu-ray.com sheep go right in lockstep.

I'm serious guys, you are asking for trouble if you participate in this. There is no way this is going to be fair, and no way it's going to be productive.


+ 2

I feel it funny that pro blu-ray people feel threatened to stay at a format neutral place like AVS. They have to have their own forum in which they could delete/ban anything that relates to HD-DVD. Why not come over here and defend the format. AVS only seems pro HDDVD cuz they are hiding in their own forum.

btw, the posts by doby and supermans in the bay forums are hilarious. Talk about being selective on what is being posted :D

It doesn't help when senior members of AVSF like Grubert and dobyblue head over to that forum and portray as if we are fawning HD-DVD sycophants here, constantly posting BD in bad light. Even on a neutral forum, they don't have one thing positive to say about HD-DVD.

What I said there, I posted here at the same time, so I wasn't posting behind anybody's back:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11997385&postcount=8

I'm not eligible for either side. I can't speak for HD DVD because I think that ultimately Blu-ray is the superior technology (and dozens HD DVD fans evidently disapprove of what I post on AVS). And I can't speak for Blu-ray because I bought into the rival format.

You just proved to be part of those HD DVD fans.

It doesn't help when senior members of AVSF like Grubert and dobyblue head over to that forum and portray as if we are fawning HD-DVD sycophants here, constantly posting BD in bad light. Even on a neutral forum, they don't have one thing positive to say about HD-DVD.



Yeah, that forum is completely unreadable unless you're a diehard BD supporter, especially when the discussion has anything to do with Paramount/DW. I go there and read the insider's thread because paidgeek and Penton-Man have actual interesting information to reveal, but otherwise it's just ridiculous the amount of flag waving and arrogance over there.

To be fair, the 'debate' threads on here can be just as bad, but at least there's two sides to it (albeit mostly red). It's amusing to see how seriously some people take it.

What I dont understand is, when did Michael Bay become a big player and when did his opinion account for anything? He is a low rate director and he can easily be replaced. As far as the debate goes, this is just a ploy to get people over there and help the blurayfanbois recover from the kick in the nuts that the sales of Transformers did. Nothing more nothing less. And you people with the ridiculous we want lossless chant when you know it would take a nice system, much nicer than the average consumer has to appreciate it are getting real tired...is there anything else you can latch onto besides that when it would only affect less than 5% of the HD crowd anyway?? What a joke.

I agree with this as I have mentioned this already in a few posts. It seems the HD-DVD supporters are going to have a hard time convincing anybody why they should support HD-DVD when it can't deliver the goods, especially on their biggest release of the year...Transformers....

Yeah, I took a long time to post, so I must have missed it. I agree its thats just too big of a black mark. Michael Bays Biggest movie ever and it couldnt include lossless on the 2 disc HDDVD.

People can argue all day about how DD+ is good enough. But the fact remains. Lossless isnt there for a reason

That really accentuates the limits of HDDVDs technical capabilities.

No what I was fishing for is where the lack of "technical capabilities" won't allow a TrueHD track? Anybody that has actually watched the disc can attest to the quality of the provided soundtrack, so I have yet to find any negatives to this disc that actually hold water.

I feel it funny that pro blu-ray people feel threatened to stay at a format neutral place like AVS. They have to have their own forum in which they could delete/ban anything that relates to HD-DVD. Why not come over here and defend the format. AVS only seems pro HDDVD cuz they are hiding in their own forum.

btw, the posts by doby and supermans in the bay forums are hilarious. Talk about being selective on what is being posted :D
Don't both of those guys post here as well? :confused:

If the HD DVD camp really wants to represent with someone who knows all the facts inside and out, then I nominate Robert Zohn to represent. He would not get heated by their BD fanboy remarks and stick to the facts.

The issue of the format war has always been about the PS3 and how it gave a leg up to BD. But history is full of "superior" formats that failed:

1. Betamax
2. 4 Channel Stereo
3. LD (yes it failed - to be accepted by the public)
4. SACD/DVD-A

Having the "superior" format does not guarantee a win with the public. . . who almost always chases price before quality - just a fact of the market.

People can argue all day about how DD+ is good enough. But the fact remains. Lossless isnt there for a reason

Maybe if you say this enough times it will magically become true but in reality it won't and you are just boring the life out of me (and probably not just me) with your broken record routine.

What I said there, I posted here at the same time, so I wasn't posting behind anybody's back:

AVS Forum - View Single Post - Micheal Bay's Website is Having a Format Debate HD DVD participant needed (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11997385&postcount=8)



You just proved what I said of HD DVD fans.

Grubert, I am one of those HD-DVD fans you refer to in your posts on that forum. I have been meaning to ask you this for a long time, and don't want to portray this to be a witch hunt against you in public.

If you say you have a HD-DVD player, which indicates you saw something worthy of buying into HD-DVD for, why don't I see you posting anything positive about HD-DVD?

By posting such allegations against HD-DVD supports in those BD leaning forums, you are only further proving my point. For once, try to portray AVSF and its members as the forum it really is.

Yeah, because being the highest selling HDM on either format in a single week didn't do it. :rolleyes:

You guys are amazing.

This means very little because Michael Bay knows the numbers would have been double or triple that had it been released on Blu-ray alone based on current software sale trends (not to mention the Ps3/Blu-ray crowd is younger than the current HD-DVD crowd).. As time goes on and more people buy HD-DVD and Blu-ray players, the record will be shattered numerous times since more people will be buying discs.. At this time, Blu-ray is leading in the software sales area... Transformers had the opportunity to showcase HD-DVD's superiority by being all that it can be, however it failed at that with the current sound issues people are having which is unrelated to it not being lossless but still brings the situation to the forefront of the discussion. Couple that with Transformers being a two disc set and still not being capable of offering lossless audio, the high bitrate video, and IME all on one disc showcases the limitations that HD-DVD has rather than any of its strengths which at the moment is the IME. However because the choice was made to include IME, the audio quality was lowered...Michael Bay and his team know that they could have included everything on one disc had it been on a Blu-ray which would have lowered production costs as well and had enough room for lossless audio..

The issue of the format war has always been about the PS3 and how it gave a leg up to BD. But history is full of "superior" formats that failed:

1. Betamax
2. 4 Channel Stereo
3. LD (yes it failed - to be accepted by the public)
4. SACD/DVD-A

Having the "superior" format does not guarantee a win with the public. . . who almost always chases price before quality - just a fact of the market.

Are you acknowledging Blu-ray is the "superior format" ????? What a shock coming from you Lee... ;)

I agree with this as I have mentioned this already in a few posts. It seems the HD-DVD supporters are going to have a hard time convincing anybody why they should support HD-DVD when it can't deliver the goods, especially on their biggest release of the year...Transformers....

step back and look at what you type...

Saying HD DVD cant deliver is just silly. HD DVD has a consistant ine of fantascic looking and sounding movies (as does BD). Personally I dont think you have the right to make a statement like that unless you have spent an equal amount of time with both formats. For some reason I think you base a lot of your opinions on HD DVD without even watching the movies on a regular basis.

What does that say about the value of your input on the format and its movies?

Micheal Bay in all his statements seems to be focusing on extras and innovations in presenting supplementary content - pointing to his 4 disk Pearl Harbor DVD. I would like to see a single statement about Lossless from him... so to set the record straight.

1. Pip/IME Experience - currently highly inefficient on BD and not at par with HD DVD.

2. Web enabled content - currently only available on HD DVD.

3. Lossless audio - possible on both formats. In fact HD DVD DD+ is 24 bits, v. BD PCM which are mostly 16bits. But this is not a technical limitation of HD DVD. 300 has TruHD, lossless and IME for HD DVD. Furthermore, it is also a combo!

4. PQ is the same.

5. HD DVD tools are more developed and easier to develop with....

6. More HD DVD standalone players sold imples more HT fans are embracing HD DVD.

7. HD DVD players approaching mass consumer prices much faster than BD...

Michael Bay is probably not well informed at this point. Doing DD+ was a studio choice. Not providing web content or encoding real PiP on BD is not a choice. Big difference....

Agree with all the posts about this pointless debate - it's been done to death. A more productive debate would be to discern why people like me (despite being able to afford both formats) choose to not buy into either at this time. The question about BD or HD is secondary and meaningless until the first question is answered.

Micheal Bay in all his statements seems to be focusing on extras and innovations in presenting supplementary content - pointing to his 4 disk Pearl Harbor DVD. I would like to see a single statement about Lossless from him... so to set the record straight.

1. Pip/IME Experience - currently highly inefficient on BD and not at par with HD DVD.

2. Web enabled content - currently only available on HD DVD.

3. Lossless audio - possible on both formats. In fact HD DVD DD+ is 24 bits, v. BD PCM which are mostly 16bits. But this is not a technical limitation of HD DVD. 300 has TruHD, lossless and IME for HD DVD. Furthermore, it is also a combo!

4. PQ is the same.

5. HD DVD tools are more developed and easier to develop with....

6. More HD DVD standalone players sold imples more HT fans are embracing HD DVD.

7. HD DVD players approaching mass consumer prices much faster than BD...

Michael Bay is probably not well informed at this point. Doing DD+ was a studio choice. Not providing web content or encoding real PiP on BD is not a choice. Big difference....
Then go tell him that!

If you say you have a HD-DVD player, which indicates you saw something worthy of buying into HD-DVD for, why don't I see you posting anything positive about HD-DVD?

- Excited about 1080p24 support for HD DVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10909630#post10909630
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10854521#post10854521

- Happy about HD-A1: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10590090&postcount=38

- Possibility of "XA3" by the end of 2007: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10435232#post10435232

- Excited about no more combos (unfortunately debunked): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11747605&postcount=89

- Thread opened about Zodiac Director's Cut: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11654481#post11654481

- Appreciation of The Road Warrior HD DVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11596831#post11596831

- Hoping for American Beauty and Road to Perdition on HD DVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11433780&postcount=30

****

And...

- Criticism of SCE for taking SACD support out of the PS3: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11853001&postcount=49

- Reporting that Warner's Terminator 3 will not be Profile 1.1: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11940936&postcount=3226

- Reporting lack of bonus features on The Fly Blu-ray: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11406972&postcount=39 (btw I was wrong and the BD was eventually pretty loaded on extras)

and still not being capable of offering lossless audio, the high bitrate video, and IME

OK broken record #2 can you give us a link to show HD DVD is not "capable" of offering these features?

No? I didn't think so. Hey it's ok not everyone was born to be a thinker. :D

Just find your man, already...


I want to see this thing go down!

Grubert, I am one of those HD-DVD fans you refer to in your posts on that forum. I have been meaning to ask you this for a long time, and don't want to portray this to be a witch hunt against you in public.

If you say you have a HD-DVD player, which indicates you saw something worthy of buying into HD-DVD for, why don't I see you posting anything positive about HD-DVD?

By posting such allegations against HD-DVD supports in those BD leaning forums, you are only further proving my point. For once, try to portray AVSF and its members as the forum it really is.

The word that comes to mind is - hypocrisy :)

The word that comes to mind is - hypocrisy :)

See three posts above and take your foot off your mouth.

I would not even attempt on signing on this blu bias forum created by a blu fanboy director...like another poster said...this low rate director can be "facilmente" replaced and no one will ever know.

Transformers had the opportunity to showcase HD-DVD's superiority by being all that it can be, however it failed at that with the current sound issues people are having which is unrelated to it not being lossless but still brings the situation to the forefront of the discussion.


You are joking right?


Do you actually believe your zealous claims or are you trying to incite disbelief as well as illustrate your ignorance?



The people have spoken Transformers is awesome in AQ/SQ that is a fact. It is the best HD disc out there and has no equal that is a fact. Why we start stating facts instead of mind reading and dancing around the truth?


What gets me angry is blind allegiance on both sides like any of us no matter what our format of choice is will actually win anything from this situation...the only thing we will win is a chance to give the studios more of our money.


Lossless sound will not determine the outcome of this war....price and features will and you can quote me on that or put it in your sig or whatever you want to do with it. We can go back and forth all day about boiling discs. disc rot. Bd+ crashes, lock ups and freezes, drm......when it is all said and done:

PRICE
FEATURES

step back and look at what you type...

Saying HD DVD cant deliver is just silly. HD DVD has a consistant ine of fantascic looking and sounding movies (as does BD). Personally I dont think you have the right to make a statement like that unless you have spent an equal amount of time with both formats. For some reason I think you base a lot of your opinions on HD DVD without even watching the movies on a regular basis.

What does that say about the value of your input on the format and its movies?

I have spent an equal amount of time with both as I constantly am doing A/B comparisons with friends on multiple projector setups.. If you don't feel I have any value on these forums, then so be it, however I say it as it is. I supported HD-DVD for quite a long time and you can go back and look at my history and see that I did.. The turning point came once Blu-ray released higher than HD-DVD quality titles on BD50's consistently while HD-DVD titles have actually not improved much beyond the initial launch titles. If HD-DVD had equal specs as Blu-ray and there was no difference between them, I would support HD-DVD since the players are cheaper and I want HDmedia to get into people homes at a faster pace. I do not work for or get paid anything by any company as this is my hobby. I started out with a Samsung HDTV on this forum and an upconverting SD-DVD player as my first venture in higher quality. I was happy with my SD-DVD collection until I first started seeing over the air HDTV and I haven't looked back ever since. I first bought into HD-DVD with the HD-A1 and fully supported it as an early adopter here on AVS. Like I said, my support has changed and for good reason. I want all of the movies released to look and sound as good as POTC: DMC or Apocalypto and Blu-ray is the only studio delivering the goods on these blockbuster titles while HD-DVD is lacking.. To me it is a no brainer which format to support.

Admiral, we have enemy ships in Michaelbay forum next to Sector 47

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

I feel it funny that pro blu-ray people feel threatened to stay at a format neutral place like AVS. They have to have their own forum in which they could delete/ban anything that relates to HD-DVD. Why not come over here and defend the format. AVS only seems pro HDDVD cuz they are hiding in their own forum.


Agreed...tired of this AVS forum is biased bullshit. Forum software usually has no bias. There's two forums for HD, two for blu. Then there's the "battle" forum where all the fanatic mouthbreathers can argue over the same crap every day. Not AVS' fault some choose to hide in the cult of the Blu forum.

OK broken record #2 can you give us a link to show HD DVD is not "capable" of offering these features?

No? I didn't think so. Hey it's ok not everyone was born to be a thinker. :D

Yeah...Transformers....King Kong...next question.... Neither have lossless and neither are reference quality...

As long as people continue to measure the formats by their specs and not with their eyes and ears - we will be discussing these issues until . . . well forever.:(

I would say there is value to going there and educating Michael etc. Mostly people are misinformed and there is always the chance of getting people to see the reality. The case for BD is so weak, that dispelling it takes very little effort.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, not recipe. I would simply ask Micheal to take at look at Transformers and 300 (or King Kong) and compare it to any BD title and get his feedback - you don't close your eyes and ears when you go to a movie, why not use the, for evaluating the respective formats?

To me it seems like Michael Bay has spent very little time seeing either HD DVD or BD movies. In fact I am almost sure of that.

As for Grubert. IF he prefers BD over HD DVD based on his personal experience, then I respect that. But if it is based on specs and promises from Sony....then I have my doubts :)

Yeah...Transformers....King Kong...next question....

Yup. Both titles received 5/5 video and audio scores from all reviewers who saw these movies....like they say proof is in the tasting, not recipe.

HD DVD is simply a superior implementation overall than BD. Superior specs will lose when confornted with superior implementation - when both products are equivalent from a user perspective. The fact that BD continues to lose market share even while escalating their losses and marketing budgets is a testamont to a failing product....customer acquistion costs for BD is out of control and non sustainable.

Yup. Both titles received 5/5 video and audio scores from all reviewers who saw these movies....like they say proof is in the tasting, not recipe.

The proof is in the tasting Plazman.. And once you have a taste of High Def audio, you never want to go back to anything less...

Yup. Both titles received 5/5 video and audio scores from all reviewers who saw these movies....like they say proof is in the tasting, not recipe.


Highdefdigest gave a 4.5 for video quality.

The fact that BD continues to lose market share

This is why this forum is considered an HD DVD website. Please prove your FUD.

Highdefdigest gave a 4.5 for video quality.



This is why this forum is considered an HD DVD website. Please prove your FUD.

Check out the Q1, Q2 and Q3 sales posted by Grubert himself on this forum. You will also see that since Q1 - BD has grown 20%, while HD DVD has grown around 70%...so HD DVD has not only grown relative to BD during this period, but for each quarter, HD DVD did better relative to BD than the Q before...

This is from the AVS forum home page, yeah Blu Ray is losing market share.

Blu-ray Outsells HD DVD Nearly 2-1 Through September, Research Shows

Blu-ray discs have outsold HD DVD titles by nearly 2-to-1 through September of this year, according to new statistics from Home Media Research (via Reuters).

From January 1 to September 30, 2.6 million Blu-ray discs were sold, compared to 1.4 million HD DVD titles.

This is so stupid. There is going to be nothing other than what we already know. HD DVD has interactivity, it has X studios and the hardware is cheaper. BD has more CE support, has X studios, software prices are sometimes lower due to combos, more disc space and bitrate, more expensive hardware.

Bam, make your decision not too tough. Im so sick of hearing the talking points over and over as if one day someone is going to wake up and say "by golly hes right, they have Disney" or "by golly hes right i can look at a google earth map on my hd dvd and see where crooks are"......no one will have a revalation and the only people on the fence are those who dont want to throw money away on the WRONG format...people arent on the fence because they cant see the differences, its because they dont want to have to replace their libraries in 2 years....so unless one of the debaters can bring a time machine to solve the REAL problem on slow adoption (uncertanty of one format) this is the stupidest thing ive seen in a while.

Thanks for letting me rant, that felt great. :cool:

Highdefdigest gave a 4.5 for video quality.



This is why this forum is considered an HD DVD website. Please prove your FUD.


Highdefdigest can give it a 1.2 for all I care, what matters to me was what I saw..and it was a beautiful 5 in my eyes...exactly what I want in HiDef.

The proof is in the tasting Plazman.. And once you have a taste of High Def audio, you never want to go back to anything less...

You do realize that MOST BD PCM tracks are 16 bits, v. HD DVD 1.5 Mbps DD+ tracks from Universal and Paramount which are 24 bits and hence are superior for 99.99% of people that are listening to these tracks. If BD is catering to .01% of the population and for that they want to justify their infrastructure...then the business model is broken.

Remember, HD DVD can put lossless on any title - even one that is 3 hours long! Also, remember that NO BD title can have web enabled content and that PiP probably cannot be implemented at all in a title the length of KK.

HD DVD implementation is just superior. Period.

Looks like the new strategy of the BDA is to portray AVS as an HD DVD fan site while Bluray.com is where the reasonable people duck for cover! Increasingly, the BDA is assuming that the world is full of stupid people who will actually believe this sort of crap :rolleyes:

300 next question....wait what was the question :confused:

Fixed.

This is from the AVS forum home page, yeah Blu Ray is losing market share.

Look at the quarterly break down of that data. Then come back...

BD HD DVD
Q1 832 359
Q2 768 436
Q3 1000 605

BD HD DVD
Q1 69.9% 30.1%
Q2 63.8% 36.2%
Q3 62.3% 37.7%

Sales growth Q1 to Q3:

Blu-ray = 20.2%
HD DVD = 68.5%


Someone even found the old Fox chart from CES to compare against :)

This means very little because Michael Bay knows the numbers would have been double or triple that had it been released on Blu-ray alone based on current software sale trends (not to mention the Ps3/Blu-ray crowd is younger than the current HD-DVD crowd).. As time goes on and more people buy HD-DVD and Blu-ray players, the record will be shattered numerous times since more people will be buying discs.. At this time, Blu-ray is leading in the software sales area... Transformers had the opportunity to showcase HD-DVD's superiority by being all that it can be, however it failed at that with the current sound issues people are having which is unrelated to it not being lossless but still brings the situation to the forefront of the discussion. Couple that with Transformers being a two disc set and still not being capable of offering lossless audio, the high bitrate video, and IME all on one disc showcases the limitations that HD-DVD has rather than any of its strengths which at the moment is the IME. However because the choice was made to include IME, the audio quality was lowered...Michael Bay and his team know that they could have included everything on one disc had it been on a Blu-ray which would have lowered production costs as well and had enough room for lossless audio..

it's just comical at this point.

This means very little because Michael Bay knows the numbers would have been double or triple that had it been released on Blu-ray alone based on current software sale trends (not to mention the Ps3/Blu-ray crowd is younger than the current HD-DVD crowd).. As time goes on and more people buy HD-DVD and Blu-ray players, the record will be shattered numerous times since more people will be buying discs.. At this time, Blu-ray is leading in the software sales area... Transformers had the opportunity to showcase HD-DVD's superiority by being all that it can be, however it failed at that with the current sound issues people are having which is unrelated to it not being lossless but still brings the situation to the forefront of the discussion. Couple that with Transformers being a two disc set and still not being capable of offering lossless audio, the high bitrate video, and IME all on one disc showcases the limitations that HD-DVD has rather than any of its strengths which at the moment is the IME. However because the choice was made to include IME, the audio quality was lowered...Michael Bay and his team know that they could have included everything on one disc had it been on a Blu-ray which would have lowered production costs as well and had enough room for lossless audio..


Perfect summation...and explains the race to the 51 gb disc. 30 gb is already outmoded.

Look at the quarterly break down of that data. Then come back...


and that would be located......

You do realize that MOST BD PCM tracks are 16 bits, v. HD DVD 1.5 Mbps DD+ tracks from Universal and Paramount which are 24 bits and hence are superior for 99.99% of people that are listening to these tracks. If BD is catering to .01% of the population and for that they want to justify their infrastructure...then the business model is broken.

Remember, HD DVD can put lossless on any title - even one that is 3 hours long! Also, remember that NO BD title can have web enabled content and that PiP probably cannot be implemented at all in a title the length of KK.

HD DVD implementation is just superior. Period.

Looks like the new strategy of the BDA is to portray AVS as an HD DVD fan site while Bluray.com is where the reasonable people duck for cover! Increasingly, the BDA is assuming that the world is full of stupid people who will actually believe this sort of crap :rolleyes:

I think its peoples observation on the posters and interaction of those posters WITH the moderation......nothing truly wrong, everyone has opinions, but to act as if this place is straight down the middle is laughable....no one portrays this place as anything, other than the folks here.

it's just comical at this point.

yes, it is.

Does anyone find it interesting that they would pick Blu-ray.com for a Blu-ray person, but AVS for an HD DVD person? Couldn't they find both sides here?

and that would be located......

Ask Grubert :D

It's there in the Neilson sales thread....

Here is a summary

Look at the quarterly break down of that data. Then come back...

BD HD DVD
Q1 832 359
Q2 768 436
Q3 1000 605

BD HD DVD
Q1 69.9% 30.1%
Q2 63.8% 36.2%
Q3 62.3% 37.7%

Sales growth Q1 to Q3:

Blu-ray = 20.2%
HD DVD = 68.5%

Does anyone find it interesting that they would pick Blu-ray.com for a Blu-ray person, but AVS for an HD DVD person? Couldn't they find both sides here?

I don't really know the point you were trying to make, but it is sad that this is the "biggest" hd dvd supporter site on the web.

I have felt that this should be renamed HD DVD forum because of all the support.

AVS is to HD DVD support as the NRA is to the Republican party.

I would guess 80% HD DVD here vs 20% BD.

I don't really know the point you were trying to make, but it is sad that this is the "biggest" hd dvd supporter site on the web.

I have felt that this should be renamed HD DVD forum because of all the support.

Why is it sad?

Are you sad because people are allowed to freely exchange ideas here, UNLIKE all the other sites? Does it make you mad that when all things being equil (like they are here) people are favoring HD DVD?

Perfect summation...and explains the race to the 51 gb disc. 30 gb is already outmoded.


It's called check-mating your opponent in chess.

Already any advantage BD has is already theoretical (space at this point)....any advantage HD DVD has is real (cost, web, IME). With 51GB even the theoretical advantage will be lost.

Highdefdigest can give it a 1.2 for all I care, what matters to me was what I saw..and it was a beautiful 5 in my eyes...exactly what I want in HiDef.

No other movie that I have watch looked or sounded better than Transfomers. I own both HD DVD and Blu-Ray and have a system that plays lossless. Spout all the specs you want, its results that count.
(It reminds of all the PS3 owners who complain that it is the developers fault that PS3 games don't look as good as the 360 versions...But the PS3 has better specs!. http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-76859.aspx)

Now if I could just find a Blu-Ray disc that allowed for web connectivity and real PiP, I could say they both formats are equal. Oh, except for that price thing.

I don't really know the point you were trying to make, but it is sad that this is the "biggest" hd dvd supporter site on the web.

I have felt that this should be renamed HD DVD forum because of all the support.


No it's sad that a site like blu-ray.com had to be made so Smurfs could can sing koom-by-ya around their own FUD.

AVS "at least" let's both sides duke it out rather then ban someone for posting an opinion other then that of the site.

There is an HD DVD forum a few clicks down from this one.

I don't really know the point you were trying to make, but it is sad that this is the "biggest" hd dvd supporter site on the web.

I have felt that this should be renamed HD DVD forum because of all the support.

it is even sadder that all BD insiders must quit and take shelter in a site called bluray.com! You gotta be able to defend your position logically and in public. At AVS you are not banned for saying anying positive about BD. OTOH, folks at blu-ray.com are sent PMs to come over and spread FUD on AVS. How truly sad is that!!!!!!

I would be ashamed personally if the only place I felt comfortable was in a website (bluray.com) created for my propaganda and supported solely by people whose propaganda I am spreading. Very Very sad!!!!!!!!!

Like they say....if you can't stand the heat....

As far as this debate is concerned... This was posted by the Mod over there


"Update: some peepz from the AVS forums have contacted me.

Some more info on the nature of the debate.

This debate is not a dick-measuring contest.

The purpose of this debate is to allow our readers to inform themselves on the the ongoing format competition. Although some people in our forums have chosen their format, most of us maintain an open mind.

When both sides do choose someone to come on, I will discuss with them the best way to conduct the debate. For now I suggest that the reps of both camps will start out by posting an opening statement on their format. Afterwards, I will ask questions to each side and let them answer it and then let the other side rebuttal or post a counter-point.

BTW, this thread is NOT THE DEBATE THREAD.

Stay tuned for details."

This whole thing is rediculous. Who the hell can take someone who talks like that serious?

And this too...

"Dude, I'm trying to get both sides to come and talk, so please shut the f*ck up.

If you have a problem with them, take it some where else.

Any bashing on this this thread will get your account suspended."

I had to edit the f word so it would show up. He spelled the word correctly

So who's representing HD DVD? BR.com has WickyWoo representing Blu-ray side with an anonymous co-representative.

AVS is to HD DVD support as the NRA is to the Republican party.

I would guess 80% HD DVD here vs 20% BD.

This has been prtty obvious for about a year now, but the discussions have gotten so insular that no one seems to realize the hypocrisy of accepting all HD DVD PR releases at face value (how exactly did Paramount get sales TO CUSTOMERS data in one day for Transformers???) while doubting every BD press release (give me another souce besides a Sony-purchased study that shows that BD standalones sold more in July).

Or another easy example, the religious acceptance here of web journalist Boulet's sudden (and anonymous) "insider" information that contradicted actual announced data on BD production, while ignoring multiple anonymous VIacom sources reported by The New York Times on the Toshiba payoff, even after Toshiba admitted they paid incentives to Paramount!

It's become pathetic, and I see little attempt to reign it in with any set of standards.

AVS is to HD DVD support as the NRA is to the Republican party.

I would guess 80% HD DVD here vs 20% BD.

No man calls me a Republican and expects to live. ;)

No other movie that I have watch looked or sounded better than Transfomers. I own both HD DVD and Blu-Ray and have a system that plays lossless. Spout all the specs you want, its results that count.
(It reminds of all the PS3 owners who complain that it is the developers fault that PS3 games don't look as good as the 360 versions...But the PS3 has better specs!. http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-76859.aspx)

Now if I could just find a Blu-Ray disc that allowed for web connectivity and real PiP, I could say they both formats are equal. Oh, except for that price thing.

Wait, why does it matter HOW the PiP comes to you....is there FAKE PiP or something? It seems to me that if a strength of a format allows it to encode the vid however it must to get you THAT feature of PiP its doing its job.

I truly dont see how if youre getting th ePiP you are going to trash the format for it being "fake" simply because its delivered differently.

Maybe if you say this enough times it will magically become true but in reality it won't and you are just boring the life out of me (and probably not just me) with your broken record routine.


Hmmm, interesting. I am pretty sure that its true that Transformers Doesnt have lossless audio

So no matter how many times I say it... its true.

The proof is in the tasting Plazman.. And once you have a taste of High Def audio, you never want to go back to anything less...

DD+ is high def audio.

I really don't understand this unfounded belief that a lossy picture that is 6x the resolution of DVD is considered 'high definition video' but a lossy soundtrack that is around 6x bitrate than DVD is NOT considered 'high definition audio'.

Which is it people?

It's become pathetic, and I see little attempt to reign it in with any set of standards.

http://www.avsforum.com

or

http://www.blu-ray.com ?

This has been prtty obvious for about a year now, but the discussions have gotten so insular that no one seems to realize the hypocrisy of accepting all HD DVD PR releases at face value (how exactly did Paramount get sales TO CUSTOMERS data in one day for Transformers???) while doubting every BD press release (give me another souce besides a Sony-purchased study that shows that BD standalones sold more in July).

Or another easy example, the religious acceptance here of web journalist Boulet's sudden (and anonymous) "insider" information that contradicted actual announced data on BD production, while ignoring multiple anonymous VIacom sources reported by The New York Times on the Toshiba payoff, even after Toshiba admitted they paid incentives to Paramount!

It's become pathetic, and I see little attempt to reign it in with any set of standards.
It's still loads better than any fanboy site where any criticism, however minor, gets slapped with an instant suspension or a ban. What do you think will happen if someone were to post what you wrote here, except turned around in HD DVDs favor, over on that forum?

AVS is to HD DVD support as the NRA is to the Republican party.

I would guess 80% HD DVD here vs 20% BD.

You don't need to be registered with the HD DVD party to post on AVS. Take a look at your own posts. If you were doing the same, but replaced all your HD DVD with BD and vise versa....you'd be banned from Bluray.com in 15 minutes :D

Even beatboy runs around at AVS.

The ratio could be true. But that I could attribute to the fact that people on AVS are more intelligent that the average folks out there, more educated and hence more able to make up their minds. They do not need to be part of a propaganda machine to feel a sense of value....

Wait, why does it matter HOW the PiP comes to you....is there FAKE PiP or something? It seems to me that if a strength of a format allows it to encode the vid however it must to get you THAT feature of PiP its doing its job.

I truly dont see how if youre getting th ePiP you are going to trash the format for it being "fake" simply because its delivered differently.

Yeah until they don't have enough space on the disk for lossless audio because they've used it all up by putting two copies of the movie on the disc.

It's not fake PIP. It's inefficient PIP.

Let's take our BD50. Put a 20GB movie on it and then put the exact same 20GB movie on it again but with a little square box and the director talking.

OR, let's take a HD30 and put a 25GB movie on it. ;)

Ok so who is going to participate for the HD-DVD side?

It's called check-mating your opponent in chess.

Already any advantage BD has is already theoretical (space at this point)....any advantage HD DVD has is real (cost, web, IME). With 51GB even the theoretical advantage will be lost.

So are you saying HD-DVD can't perform a check-mate unless they do come out with 51GB's?? Let's assume 51GB HD-DVD's come out sometime middle of next year. And let us assume they are compatible with all current HD-DVD players and don't have any issues as the current combo discs have with playback. Will all HD-DVD titles that suffer from lack of bitrate or space suddenly get re-issued for a double dip or will they do an even exchange for free as Sony did with "The Fifth Element"? I'm talking about Transformers, King Kong, The Jack Ryan Collection, Troy to name a few just to add the lossless audio track and perhaps some extras which are lacking in all those releases mentioned.. Transformers has extras on the second disc so it is not a title lacking in extras however King Kong definitely fits that description and it is also lacking in the audio dept..

Why is it sad?

Are you sad because people are allowed to freely exchange ideas here, UNLIKE all the other sites? Does it make you mad that when all things being equil (like they are here) people are favoring HD DVD?

Things are not equal (not equil). There are considerably more hd dvd supporters on this forum.

Hmmm, interesting. I am pretty sure that its true that Transformers Doesnt have lossless audio

So no matter how many times I say it... its true.

It took you that long to reply and you can't even get it right still. I wasn't debating whether or not the disc has a lossless track but refuting your claim that it wasn't even "technically possible". Hey nice try though, i'm sure in a hour you'll have some new boring post for me to spike back in your face.

DD+ is high def audio.

I really don't understand this unfounded belief that a lossy picture that is 6x the resolution of DVD is considered 'high definition video' but a lossy soundtrack that is around 6x bitrate than DVD is NOT considered 'high definition audio'.

Which is it people?

What is the bitrate of DD+ (max, as not all DD+ are maxed, correct)? There are DVD's (standard definition) that are over 1500 kbps.

Things are not equal (not equil). There are considerably more hd dvd supporters on this forum.


But the basis for letting people decide most certainly is equal. The fact that people FREELY chose to support HD DVD just makes you sad.

What is the bitrate of DD+? There are DVD's that are over 1500 kbps.

Of DD?

I belive the highest DD tracks are 640k and they are not all decoders can read it. 448k is the highest for 99.9% of dvd's.

there are 1.5 DTS, but they are apples and oragnes.

Wait, why does it matter HOW the PiP comes to you....is there FAKE PiP or something? It seems to me that if a strength of a format allows it to encode the vid however it must to get you THAT feature of PiP its doing its job.

I truly dont see how if youre getting th ePiP you are going to trash the format for it being "fake" simply because its delivered differently.

Well, by doing the two movie encode thing, you run into the same problem as HD DVD with space when doing it with long movies. AFAIK, the Blu-rays that do have PiP are fairly short movies, like Crank (87 min), The Descent (99 min), T3 (109 min).

You're right in that once it's on screen, who cares how it's done (although it's nice to be able to turn it on and off on the fly). I just wish they would get this whole profile thing worked out though, because I want more PiP commentaries on Blu-rays.

fanboy warz.....its serious business. i really wanna see this debate tho, itd be good for a couple of laughs. itll either be a madhouse of fangirls calling each other noobs and saying you got pwned or a rational discussion where noone changes anyone elses extremely biased opinion.

hopefully its the former and not the latter.

So are you saying HD-DVD can't perform a check-mate unless they do come out with 51GB's?? Let's assume 51GB HD-DVD's come out sometime middle of next year. And let us assume they are compatible with all current HD-DVD players and don't have any issues as the current combo discs have with playback. Will all HD-DVD titles that suffer from lack of bitrate or space suddenly get re-issued for a double dip or will they do an even exchange for free as Sony did with "The Fifth Element"? I'm talking about Transformers, King Kong, The Jack Ryan Collection, Troy to name a few just to add the lossless audio track and perhaps some extras which are lacking in all those releases mentioned.. Transformers has extras on the second disc so it is not a title lacking in extras however King Kong definitely fits that description and it is also lacking in the audio dept..

no, what he's saying is that it will then silence people like you that hammer on constantly about spec differences that have yet to provide much of a real world difference..unless you consider comparing pixels at 400% in photoshop to be real world differences. And yes, we're already well aware that anything less than lossless is garbage so you don't need to remind us about transformers, king kong, etc. Nevermind the fact they are widely praised....it's the specs!

You gotta be able to defend your position logically and in public. At AVS you are not banned for saying anying positive about BD. OTOH, folks at blu-ray.com are sent PMs to come over and spread FUD on AVS. How truly sad is that!!!!!!

I would be ashamed personally if the only place I felt comfortable was in a website (bluray.com) created for my propaganda and supported solely by people whose propaganda I am spreading. Very Very sad!!!!!!!!!

Like they say....if you can't stand the heat....

I guess you use your "logic" when you are guessing on the Nielson numbers. Didn't you guess 35:65 two weeks ago?? Nice try. You post everything on this forum based on your "feelings" rather than logic. Don't even try to throw that one out.

I am not even a member of Bluray.com.

Why is it that most all of the HD-DVD supporters seem to be the only ones saying this debate will be pointless? What it is going to do is allow someone like Michael Bay to read up on and participate in what we go thru on a daily basis here on AVS. In the end, he is going to see that Blu-ray's strengths far outweigh its weaknesses and his movies can look and sound better on Blu-ray than HD-DVD given the proper treatment. Michael Bay has already attempted to see what the problem is with the HD-DVD sound issues with LFE/Bass being too low. This is a problem that is not HD-DVD related, however it sheds more light on the question as to why no lossless on the HD-DVD version by bringing attention to the audio. Had a lossless audio track been in place instead, there would be no such issue since the stream would be identical to the master.

Huh? So a lossless stream would fix an issue with a receiver not performing a 10db boost on LFE? Or on a player doing bass management internally?

Michael Bay thought that 300 'rocked on HD DVD'. It simply cannot be done on Blu-ray today. How is it that you think he'll come up with 'Blu-ray is better' based on that? :confused:

So are you saying HD-DVD can't perform a check-mate unless they do come out with 51GB's?? Let's assume 51GB HD-DVD's come out sometime middle of next year. And let us assume they are compatible with all current HD-DVD players and don't have any issues as the current combo discs have with playback. Will all HD-DVD titles that suffer from lack of bitrate or space suddenly get re-issued for a double dip or will they do an even exchange for free as Sony did with "The Fifth Element"? I'm talking about Transformers, King Kong, The Jack Ryan Collection, Troy to name a few just to add the lossless audio track and perhaps some extras which are lacking in all those releases mentioned..

Not sure if you play chess. But just in case. There are many ways to have a check-mate. It depends on what your opponent does and how the pieces are aligned. HD DVD could have delayed this feature and prolonged the game, clearly it has not prevented any of their current studios from putting out content and infact both originally neutral studios clearly favor HD DVD over BD. So, they are doing it for someone else...someone who cares about this.

30 GB HD DVDs have received 5/5 for audio and video. Folks like Xylon and Kris Deering are saying that Transformers is reference HD media....so 30Gb is sufficient for what the market wants or needs....HD DVD is hitting the sweet spot for HD media.....and that is the key.

Are you equating Transformers and King Kong with The Fifth Element? You are not being serious. Right? Aren't there several BD titles on BD 50 without lossless and even fewer extras than on the HD DVD 30 GB version?

Huh? So a lossless stream would fix an issue with a receiver not performing a 10db boost on LFE? Or on a player doing bass management internally?

Michael Bay thought that 300 'rocked on HD DVD'. It simply cannot be done on Blu-ray today. How is it that you think he'll come up with 'Blu-ray is better' based on that? :confused:

Based on facts... Which do show Blu-ray's advantages far outweigh HD-DVD's. And HD-DVD's only advantage of IME will soon be history as the new profile gets released. At that point in time, HD-DVD will still not be finished with TL51 and as each month goes by, compatibility with older players and TL51 becomes less and less likely to make a difference in this format war..

It's like having a Presidential debate with Bill O'Reilly as the moderator.

O'Reilly would be far superior as a moderator than say....flunkies like Chris Matthews/Wolf Blitzer/et al. Nice try though buddy. Please stay on topic. This debate will rock!!! I guarantee it!

I'm not sure what this debate is supposed to accomplish that hasn't been done ad nauseam on various other forums. However, what would definitely be interesting is if the moderator provided an opportunity to present arguments to Mr. Bay himself. In that case I would say one should show him some of the better HD-DVDs in comparison to their Bluray counterparts to remove any doubt that both formats are fully capable of excellent video and audio quality, and then give him a demonstration of the web-enabled features on Transformers. I think a creative person like him should immediately see the potential of being able to add and seamlessly integrate things like custom viewing modes, hidden features, udpated fact-tracks, community components, new menu artwork etc. at any time even after the disc has been released.

Or am I the only one excited about the potential of making these media dynamically extensible via web-connectivity? I think both media are pretty much on par when it comes to presentation quality, but it's a shame that Bluray currently cannot replicate next-generation features like that. I suspect it's something people will quickly get used to once they have experienced it, and then a format lacking it will just look outdated.

Of DD?

I belive the highest DD tracks are 640k and they are not all decoders can read it. 448k is the highest for 99.9% of dvd's.

there are 1.5 DTS, but they are apples and oragnes.

Not DD, DTS like you said. anotheraviotar did not specify 6x DD only.
" but a lossy soundtrack that is around 6x bitrate than DVD is NOT considered 'high definition audio'."

So DD+ goes up to 2.6? Any movies actually do that. I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD.

I agree that this is a move to get a lot of people to join their site.. However No lossless audio on the HD-DVD version is a HUGE negative in Michael bay's eyes and I'm sure this will be discussed on his forum to death.. We already know exactly what will be discussed since these discussions have already happened here. However Michael might make some more personal comments about what he thinks which may not be so kind to HD-DVD and that will be big news even though many on this forum don't feel a Director's opinion means anything.. I feel what Bay thinks and Spielberg thinks about this format war is very important and may have a bigger impact than one may think.. Michael bay was upset at the paramount 150 million incentive deal that made them go exclusive. Spielberg was also upset at this and both have spoken about it and their future relationship with Paramount. In either case, the importance of what these directors think brings controversy and makes headlines which cannot be good for HD-DVD if they are negative towards them.. Michael bay seems to be a stickler for high audio and video quality and seems to be in the same league as Richard Casey is by saying the SD-DVD could have been better in an interview had he had some input and helped work on it with the DVD team.. This debate will be interesting to say the least and already it is accomplishing their main goal which is to bring more people to their site and create traffic. However Michael bay may have been the one to ask for such a debate in the first place which would make it seem more important. We shall see...

So why would he be upset with the HD DVD? It was rated Tier 0, Reference PQ/AQ ... but sure ... I guess it could go to 11 ... :rolleyes:

Seriously, and then you post that he was upset about the Paramount decision to drop Blu-ray but forget to mention that he completely changed his view after seeing 300 on HD DVD.

This is purely a stunt to get a bunch of traffic on their site and ambush someone (or someones).

I wouldn't be surprised to hear some BDA spin on this.

But the basis for letting people decide most certainly is equal. The fact that people FREELY chose to support HD DVD just makes you sad.

No, the reason that AVSforum is primarily hd dvd is because it was the first format released.

AVSforum is an early adopter site. We are the .00000009% of the population that goes out and buys the latest and greatest A/V equipment. Thus people would like to back their investment.

Also, Blu Ray screwed the pooch out of gate. They had a crappy player and were using mpeg2 in an inferior manner. Since Q4 of 2007, I personally feel that Blu Ray has out performed hd dvd in sound quality, video quality, disc selection and player performance. That is why I am a Blu ray supporter.


By the way, I own an HD D1 and more hd dvd discs than most of the supporters on this forum. I owned the hd dvd player before Blu Ray was released so I made an informed decision, not an emotional one.....

I guess you use your "logic" when you are guessing on the Nielson numbers. Didn't you guess 35:65 two weeks ago?? Nice try. You post everything on this forum based on your "feelings" rather than logic. Don't even try to throw that one out.

I am not even a member of Bluray.com.

Predicting numbers is not my game. It is done for fun here. However, my position on things are well thought out, especially when I am able to weigh the options and evaluate all the factors at play....

Please point out a logical fault in my argument. I have even asked Darin this when he implied the same. This name calling seems to be another trait of the classis BD strategy....

This is pure entertainment. Everything from the many spec-whoring posts, some people being much too attached to this format war, to all the new accounts created on Michael Bay's forum from fanboys who post here.

Bunch of tools.

By the way, I also agree with Michael Mullis that this is a trap for HD DVD, Michael Bay has made up his mind long before the Paramount/Dreamworks decision.

Nothing can come of this that would be beneficial to hd dvd.

This will turn out to be a BDA spin-o-rama. I am sure that HD DVD will fall right into it....

The fake PiP method, does it use seamless branching so that you can turn it off? Or do you have to watch the movie with PiP or without?

In many HDi titles you can choose to watch the PiP or watch it without a restart. You can either not hit the A key or use the menu option to turn it off.

The only way to accomplish that with fake PiP would be to use seamless, so that by turning it off or on you flip to the same point in the PiP or non PiP version.

Anyways, how do they do it?

Yeah...Transformers....King Kong...next question.... Neither have lossless and neither are reference quality...

Huh?

No, the reason that AVSforum is primarily hd dvd is because it was the first format released.

AVSforum is an early adopter site. We are the .00000009% of the population that goes out and buys the latest and greatest A/V equipment. Thus people would like to back their investment.

Also, Blu Ray screwed the pooch out of gate. They had a crappy player and were using mpeg2 in an inferior manner. Since Q4 of 2007, I personally feel that Blu Ray has out performed hd dvd in sound quality, video quality, disc selection and player performance. That is why I am a Blu ray supporter.


By the way, I own an HD D1 and more hd dvd discs than most of the supporters on this forum. I owned the hd dvd player before Blu Ray was released so I made an informed decision, not an emotional one.....

How do you know that? :rolleyes:

At least I know what types of movies you prefer and what you are looking for. I am taking WB out of the equation here since their BD disks are usually inferior to HD DVD. :D

Not sure if you play chess. But just in case. There are many ways to have a check-mate. It depends on what your opponent does and how the pieces are aligned. HD DVD could have delayed this feature and prolonged the game, clearly it has not prevented any of their current studios from putting out content and infact both originally neutral studios clearly favor HD DVD over BD. So, they are doing it for someone else...someone who cares about this.

30 GB HD DVDs have received 5/5 for audio and video. Folks like Xylon and Kris Deering are saying that Transformers is reference HD media....so 30Gb is sufficient for what the market wants or needs....HD DVD is hitting the sweet spot for HD media.....and that is the key.

Are you equating Transformers and King Kong with The Fifth Element? You are not being serious. Right? Aren't there several BD titles on BD 50 without lossless and even fewer extras than on the HD DVD 30 GB version?

Transformers by not including Lossless audio takes it away from being considered "reference" material for any home theater. Even highdefdigest which uses a 60 inch HDTV for its reviews gave Transformers a 4.5/5 in PQ and hidefpreivew which uses a home theater setup also gave it a 4.5/5 PQ rating and a 4/5 for the audio.. Overall in comparison to other reference discs, this one does not live up to expectations for such a blockbuster release and because it is missing high def audio, it cannot be considered reference..

This is from the AVS forum home page, yeah Blu Ray is losing market share.

Didn't it used to be "more than 2:1" ? and now it's "nearly 2:1" ... would you call that gaining share? :confused:

It's still loads better than any fanboy site where any criticism, however minor, gets slapped with an instant suspension or a ban. What do you think will happen if someone were to post what you wrote here, except turned around in HD DVDs favor, over on that forum?

Actually, David Boulet, for example, was indeed allowed to post his anonymous insider claptrap over there and try to support his opinion until he started making personal attacks on the integrity of the insiders.

Considering how often Amir was sheltered here from criticism, you ought to understand why the can't allow personal attacks on insiders.

BTW, at least BD.com admits to being a format-preference site. The thing thats obnoxious is that AVS is not supposed to be; it does maintain a good degree of fairness on other forums, so it's very frustrating to see how one-sided the HDM forums are.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:qZZeo2efPbiuEM:http://www.tirbd.com/uploaded_images/broken-record-766245.jpg

By the way, I also agree with Michael Mullis that this is a trap for HD DVD, Michael Bay has made up his mind long before the Paramount/Dreamworks decision.

Nothing can come of this that would be beneficial to hd dvd.

This will turn out to be a BDA spin-o-rama. I am sure that HD DVD will fall right into it....

As a Director he is pretty much powerless to do much....I am hoping that he made up his mind after looking at the facts. Remember he saw 300 on HD DVD AFTER his initial outburst. I am curious what BD movie he saw that would convince him that BD is superior....

However, I took a quick trip to his web site and it does look like the bluray.com fan base has desended enmasse there.

Now that Dreamworks/paramount is HD DVD exclusive - his opinion is moot, as far as I can see. But I am for informing....

The fake PiP method, does it use seamless branching so that you can turn it off? Or do you have to watch the movie with PiP or without?

In many HDi titles you can choose to watch the PiP or watch it without a restart. You can either not hit the A key or use the menu option to turn it off.

The only way to accomplish that with fake PiP would be to use seamless, so that by turning it off or on you flip to the same point in the PiP or non PiP version.

Anyways, how do they do it?

Nope, you can't switch between the versions. At least in the Lionsgate implementation (Descent and Crank), even the menu button was disabled when playing the PiP version, so only way to switch versions was to stop the movie and start over from the beginning and skip forward to where you were.

BTW, at least BD.com admits to being a format-preference site. The thing thats obnoxious is that AVS is not supposed to be; it does maintain a good degree of fairness on other forums, so it's very frustrating to see how one-sided the HDM forums are.

Whats frustrating about a bunch of forum members preferring one over the other?

Moderator

what ever is posted on another forum: so be it

Here on AVS we would ask that every poster take the high road in every post

Many Thanks :)

Wait, why does it matter HOW the PiP comes to you....is there FAKE PiP or something? It seems to me that if a strength of a format allows it to encode the vid however it must to get you THAT feature of PiP its doing its job.

I truly dont see how if youre getting th ePiP you are going to trash the format for it being "fake" simply because its delivered differently.

It's not just delivered differently, it's functionally different. Menu'ing systems completely changed, and it can't just be shut off at your leisure. It's really a *very* different implementation -- so much so that it shouldn't be called PiP.

Transformers by not including Lossless audio takes it away from being considered "reference" material for any home theater. Even highdefdigest which uses a 60 inch HDTV for its reviews gave Transformers a 4.5/5 in PQ and hidefpreivew which uses a home theater setup also gave it a 4.5/5 PQ rating and a 4/5 for the audio.. Overall in comparison to other reference discs, this one does not live up to expectations for such a blockbuster release and because it is missing high def audio, it cannot be considered reference..

Looks like you favor hidefdigest as your single source of information and reviews. So, on hidefdigest, what are the reference disks that get a perfect score?

Yeah, I took a long time to post, so I must have missed it. I agree its thats just too big of a black mark. Michael Bays Biggest movie ever and it couldnt include lossless on the 2 disc HDDVD.

People can argue all day about how DD+ is good enough. But the fact remains. Lossless isnt there for a reason

I keep hearing about how Transformers lacked lossless due to capacity issues. The fact that Paramount made Blu-Rays for ages and did not release any (that I know of, certainly very few if they did) lossless tracks on movies. Only since they switched to HD exclusive have they released any lossless tracks (only 4 I believe). Does this mean that Blu-Ray was incapable of having lossless tracks?

The answer is obviously not. But for HD to take such a hit for such a great release is a joke. The truth is there is STILL enough space to put a 16/48 track on the movie. This absurd fascination with lossless is getting out of hand.

If the HD DVD camp really wants to represent with someone who knows all the facts inside and out, then I nominate Robert Zohn to represent. He would not get heated by their BD fanboy remarks and stick to the facts.

Good choice. Or Amir...........he would kill the bluboys with kindness. Amir has forgot more about HDM than 99.9% of those cute litte bluies know! Gawd, this is entertaining. Keep it up!!!!

BTW, Amir is waaaaaaaaaay too good for this ridiculous Bay debate sh*t.

So why would he be upset with the HD DVD? It was rated Tier 0, Reference PQ/AQ ... but sure ... I guess it could go to 11 ... :rolleyes:

...

Not surprising at all. Different formats have different standards. Just because something rates a 5/5 or a 10/10 on format doesnt' mean it can't be improved upon.

Lord of the Rings on DVD was rated with a perfect score on many websites, reference material. Yet most of my blu-ray titles look and sound much better and they certainly aren't all rated Tier O "reference" quality by blu-ray standards.

Not surprising at all. Different formats have different standards. Just because something rates a 5/5 or a 10/10 on format doesnt' mean it can't be improved upon.

Lord of the Rings on DVD was rated with a perfect score on many websites, reference material. Yet most of my blu-ray titles look and sound much better.

what do you think they are comparing hd-dvd's to when they rate them?

(hint, it's not DVD).

I keep hearing about how Transformers lacked lossless due to capacity issues. The fact that Paramount made Blu-Rays for ages and did not release any (that I know of, certainly very few if they did) lossless tracks on movies. Only since they switched to HD exclusive have they released any lossless tracks (only 4 I believe). Does this mean that Blu-Ray was incapable of having lossless tracks?

The answer is obviously not. But for HD to take such a hit for such a great release is a joke. The truth is there is STILL enough space to put a 16/48 track on the movie. This absurd fascination with lossless is getting out of hand.

Bandwidth limitations....

Lord of the Rings on DVD was rated with a perfect score on many websites, reference material. Yet most of my blu-ray titles look and sound much better.

Awesome comparison! :confused::rolleyes: What?

This absurd fascination with lossless is getting out of hand.

But it's the newest talking point, kinda like bit rate meter watching. They tend to stick with whatever they can regardless of how minute the difference translates.

Fanboys live for this kind of stuff even if it's all trivial.

Based on facts... Which do show Blu-ray's advantages far outweigh HD-DVD's. And HD-DVD's only advantage of IME will soon be history as the new profile gets released. At that point in time, HD-DVD will still not be finished with TL51 and as each month goes by, compatibility with older players and TL51 becomes less and less likely to make a difference in this format war..

Facts are that most Blu-ray releases are on 25GB Discs, and almost half of them don't include a lossless track. The newly release Sony S500 is Profile 1.0 and $700. What do you expect a Profile 1.1 player to cost? $1200 for the Denon? I'm pretty sure $200 to $1200 is a significant advantage, no?

You still really haven't shown anything that can be done on Blu-ray that can't be done on HD DVD. But there are many many things that can be done on HD DVD that can't be done on Blu-ray.

Sure, you can say 'Soon, we have potential, later on, it can do, etc." But, for that, why don't we trash Blu-ray and HD DVD and just buy into HVD? Sure, it's expensive, but then we can get lossless audio and video!

TL51 likely isn't going to make any difference, studio's aren't really asking for it according to Insiders. So what about it?

Tell me which advantages of Blu-ray outweight HD DVD? Not based on paper, but in the 'Real World'. Both of these formats offer outstanding PQ and AQ. If you think that the format is more important than the quality of the master, then you really should do more reading. *shrug*

what do you think they are comparing hd-dvd's to when they rate them?

(hint, it's not DVD).

Other HD DVD's of course. Just as DVD's are compared to other DVD's. Kind of the point I made, different standards.

Tell me which advantages of Blu-ray outweight HD DVD? Not based on paper, but in the 'Real World'.

+1

What is the bitrate of DD+ (max, as not all DD+ are maxed, correct)? There are DVD's (standard definition) that are over 1500 kbps.

I would say that DVDs using 1500kb/s are NOT the standard.

E-AC-3, more commonly known as Dolby Digital Plus, is an enhanced coding system based on the AC-3 codec. It offers increased bitrates (up to 6.144 Mbit/s), support for more audio channels (up to 13.1), improved coding techniques to reduce compression artifacts, and backward compatibility with existing AC-3 hardware.

Transformers by not including Lossless audio takes it away from being considered "reference" material for any home theater. Even highdefdigest which uses a 60 inch HDTV for its reviews gave Transformers a 4.5/5 in PQ and hidefpreivew which uses a home theater setup also gave it a 4.5/5 PQ rating and a 4/5 for the audio.. Overall in comparison to other reference discs, this one does not live up to expectations for such a blockbuster release and because it is missing high def audio, it cannot be considered reference..

It's not 'Reference' to *you* because of AQ, but then you cite highdefdigest and mention their PQ review? Wasn't their AQ score 5/5? If you take a sampling of *all* the reviews, I'm pretty sure most have it reference quality. If you're going to pick and choose review sites that fit your agenda, then can you name any Blu-ray releases that are Reference Quality? Remember, all I need to do is find *one* review that takes half a star away and it's no longer reference following your logic. :rolleyes:

Looks like you favor hidefdigest as your single source of information and reviews. So, on hidefdigest, what are the reference disks that get a perfect score?

No, I favor my own eyes and ears as my single source. And I did mention two review sites and not just one plazman so please go and re-read my post..I mentioned review sites since many people do look at them and feel what they say is gold and has some meaning. As a whole, if you take all the review sites and take an average score of all of them, you get a better more credible score however even that is not always the case.. Either way, Transformers average score is not as high as other "reference" titles like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest for example..

Other HD DVD's of course.

are you honestly implying that reviewers don't base ratings on what other hd-dvds and blu rays look like? Only hd-dvd?

But it's the newest talking point, kinda like bit rate meter watching. They tend to stick with whatever they can regardless of how minute the difference translates.

Fanboys live for this kind of stuff even if it's all trivial.

From acclaimed director: spec comes: spec, starring: spec, winner of the 2006: spec award. Spec: A tale of spec and spec, told for the very first spec. In Theaters spec/spec/spec.

No, the reason that AVSforum is primarily hd dvd is because it was the first format released.

AVSforum is an early adopter site. We are the .00000009% of the population that goes out and buys the latest and greatest A/V equipment. Thus people would like to back their investment.

Also, Blu Ray screwed the pooch out of gate. They had a crappy player and were using mpeg2 in an inferior manner. Since Q4 of 2007, I personally feel that Blu Ray has out performed hd dvd in sound quality, video quality, disc selection and player performance. That is why I am a Blu ray supporter.




I agree until you say better player performance (look at WSR's XA2 review this month) and disc selection. I love the Matrix,Transformers,Forbidden Planet, Serenity etc. I think now ,with the studio support as it is, it's a matter of taste.

Art

Good choice. Or Amir...........he would kill the bluboys with kindness. Amir has forgot more about HDM than 99.9% of those cute litte bluies know! Gawd, this is entertaining. Keep it up!!!!

BTW, Amir is waaaaaaaaaay too good for this ridiculous Bay debate sh*t.

Amirm? Why would you want him to represent HDDVD, most of his posts were centered around BD.:D

As a Director he is pretty much powerless to do much....I am hoping that he made up his mind after looking at the facts. Remember he saw 300 on HD DVD AFTER his initial outburst. I am curious what BD movie he saw that would convince him that BD is superior....

However, I took a quick trip to his web site and it does look like the bluray.com fan base has desended enmasse there.

Now that Dreamworks/paramount is HD DVD exclusive - his opinion is moot, as far as I can see. But I am for informing....

Sour Grapes ... I think it's safe to say that Transformers fits the PS3 demographic pretty decently. These folks are upset that they can't watch it. They think they found support in Michael Bay so perhaps they all run to him in the hopes he can get them a copy on Blu-ray. I don't know, the more they whine and cry about it, the more sour the grapes seem to be. *shrug*

It's obvious that the Paramount decision to *drop* Blu-ray was very significant. No matter how much they try to minimize the importance of that decision, their reaction to things like this shows how difficult it really was/is for them to deal with.

Actually, David Boulet, for example, was indeed allowed to post his anonymous insider claptrap over there and try to support his opinion until he started making personal attacks on the integrity of the insiders.

Considering how often Amir was sheltered here from criticism, you ought to understand why the can't allow personal attacks on insiders.

BTW, at least BD.com admits to being a format-preference site. The thing thats obnoxious is that AVS is not supposed to be; it does maintain a good degree of fairness on other forums, so it's very frustrating to see how one-sided the HDM forums are.

It's leaning more towards the HD DVD side because the BD side left. Amir got more criticism and insults thrown at him than any Blu-ray insider, but he still posts here rather than retreating to some MS Blog site. For that, I give him credit. He may have an agenda, but so does Paidgeek, TalkStr8t and Penton-Man on the Blu-side of the divide.

How do you know that? :rolleyes:

At least I know what types of movies you prefer and what you are looking for. I am taking WB out of the equation here since their BD disks are usually inferior to HD DVD. :D

I look to see how many movies are listed in a lot of peoples signatures. I have more than quite a few of the "major" hd dvd supporters.

How are WB blu ray discs inferior to hd dvd? Are you talking about the inclusion of DD+ on some of their discs?? Or the fact that Warner hasn't even released quite a few movies on Blu Ray? Is that what you are implying?

Things are not equal (not equil). There are considerably more hd dvd supporters on this forum.

There may be now, but that wasn't the case a year and a half or 2 years ago when it looked like Blu-ray was going to steamroll HD DVD

My observation is that while virtually everybody on this site wants everybody else to agree with them, most HD DVD supporters are willing to debate their points, most Blu-ray supporters expect others to blindly accept their points and are unwilling to be be challenged in any manner.

That's why many fanboys who used to post here have moved on to blu-ray.com so that they say whatever they want about the format wars without any meaningful pushback or debate. The only job of the moderators there seems to be to trash or ban anybody who is pro HD DVD. Sure, they only get one very biased point of view over there, but IMO that's what they want.

I would say that DVDs using 1500kb/s are NOT the standard.

E-AC-3, more commonly known as Dolby Digital Plus, is an enhanced coding system based on the AC-3 codec. It offers increased bitrates (up to 6.144 Mbit/s), support for more audio channels (up to 13.1), improved coding techniques to reduce compression artifacts, and backward compatibility with existing AC-3 hardware.

True, most titles were not 1500kb's. Just for comparison, what are the stats on DD+ titles? What is the norm and what has been the highest?

Not surprising at all. Different formats have different standards. Just because something rates a 5/5 or a 10/10 on format doesnt' mean it can't be improved upon.

Lord of the Rings on DVD was rated with a perfect score on many websites, reference material. Yet most of my blu-ray titles look and sound much better and they certainly aren't all rated Tier O "reference" quality by blu-ray standards.

Why do people keep bringing up this argument that has been well debunked? We're not comparing last generation to this generation optical formats. When these titles get reviewed, they're not being reviewed against DVD. All DVD titles were reviewed against ... guess what? DVD titles!

HDM titles are reviewed against ... guess what? HDM titles! Who would have thought? HD DVD releases are reviewed against Blu-ray releases and vice versa. A bar is set against HDM as a whole, not just format by format. Suggesting that HD DVD is only rated against HD DVD and Blu-ray is only rated against Blu-ray is ridiculous. In fact, reviewers themselves have posted *specifically* that they rate/compare against the other format.

Seriously, it's sad that because HD DVD has produced reference quality PQ and AQ on several titles, the only thing you can suggest is that Blu-ray is better because "it must be". :confused:

Tell me which advantages of Blu-ray outweight HD DVD? Not based on paper, but in the 'Real World'.

Blu-Rays play in my PS3.

Whats frustrating about a bunch of forum members preferring one over the other?

"Preferring"? I have no objection to the mass preference at all. What bothers me is how much misinformation or disregarding of real information goes on because of how everyone piles up on sources they don't like (regardless of veracity) and shoring up obvious BS.

For the last year the HDM forums have simply not been a reliable parcer of data, while other forums on AVS are. I think this is sad, but nothing will (or probably even can) be done as long as the member-bias situation continues as it currently is.

I agree until you say better player performance (look at WSR's XA2 review this month) and disc selection. I love the Matrix,Transformers,Forbidden Planet, Serenity etc. I think now ,with the studio support as it is, it's a matter of taste.

Art

Art,

I was talking about the primary player, the PS3. The PS3 plays anything you put in it. No problems at all. I have had quite a few problems with stand alone Blu Ray players. Of course I had massive problems with my HD D1 until I sent it back to Toshiba for repair.

There are some good movies out on HD DVD. I agree with you on that. I personally just like more of the movies on Blu Ray.

Also Blu Ray has more titles than hd dvd. That was more of my point than preference.

As for you saying it is a matter of taste, I agree 100%.

No, the reason that AVSforum is primarily hd dvd is because it was the first format released.

AVSforum is an early adopter site. We are the .00000009% of the population that goes out and buys the latest and greatest A/V equipment. Thus people would like to back their investment.



It was out 3 month before BD. You actualy think that is the reason for the Higher numbers? Want to buy my bridge? It's in both manhatten and brooklyn....

Most HD DVD users own the A2, which came out after BD had been around for 6 months...

Tell me which advantages of Blu-ray outweight HD DVD? Not based on paper, but in the 'Real World'.

Homer Simpson HD

Not DD, DTS like you said. anotheraviotar did not specify 6x DD only.
" but a lossy soundtrack that is around 6x bitrate than DVD is NOT considered 'high definition audio'."

So DD+ goes up to 2.6? Any movies actually do that. I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD.


the MINIMUM on HD DVD for DD+ (which is on all HD DVD) is 640k. Warner is the only concistant user of that spec. Most all others are encoded at 1.5 or higher.

Besdies 640k DD+ beats 1.5 DTS hands down. They are not equal at all.


Ohh and HD DVD can go to way higher than 2.6 for DD+

Other HD DVD's of course. Just as DVD's are compared to other DVD's. Kind of the point I made, different standards.

And clearly, the point you are making is not correct. These reviews are not based on 'different standards'. In fact, go ahead and ask the reviewers themselves instead of repeating this nonsense over and over. *shrug*

No, I favor my own eyes and ears as my single source. And I did mention two review sites and not just one plazman so please go and re-read my post..I mentioned review sites since many people do look at them and feel what they say is gold and has some meaning. As a whole, if you take all the review sites and take an average score of all of them, you get a better more credible score however even that is not always the case.. Either way, Transformers average score is not as high as other "reference" titles like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest for example..

Really? Care to post a summary of review sites and scores for both titles?

There may be now, but that wasn't the case a year and a half or 2 years ago when it looked like Blu-ray was going to steamroll HD DVD

That is a tough argument to use for HD DVD now. While it appeared that way before the "war", HD DVD buried Blu Ray in the first 4 months.


They made some bad decisions and look where we are now. Same place we were before the war started.

Sales growth Q1 to Q3:

Blu-ray = 20.2%
HD DVD = 68.5%


Someone even found the old Fox chart from CES to compare against :)

WOW, Blu-ray looks to be going the way of the Dodo bird. Nice.
And the 2 to 1 BR advantage thru Sept. of discs sold? Hehe. 4 million sold combined! Transformers SD disc has probably sold close to 10 million in a week or so. It means NOTHING!

are you honestly implying that reviewers don't base ratings on what other hd-dvds and blu rays look like? Only hd-dvd?

My point really is and I should have made clear earlier. Just because a title recieves a 5/5 doesn't necessarily mean it can't or couldn't have sounded better. Also, there could be 8 HD DVD's (blu-ray's as well) all rated 5/5 on audio and PQ, that doesn't automatically guarantee they are all equal in respect to PQ and AQ. Just like LOTR on DVD, despite receiving the scores it received I have titles that IMO sound and look better.

Blu-Rays play in my PS3.

Rumor has it that since it can play DVD's, it's only a firmware update away from playing HD DVD's too. :p

the MINIMUM on HD DVD for DD+ (which is on all HD DVD) is 640k. Warner is the only concistant user of that spec. Most all others are encoded at 1.5 or higher.

Besdies 640k DD+ beats 1.5 DTS hands down. They are not equal at all.


Ohh and HD DVD can go to way higher than 2.6 for DD+

I never implied they were equal. Merely asking out of curiousity. Thanks for the help :)

So curious, which titles are above 1.5 or 2.6? Any review sites that list the specs?

I think if his schedule allows it should be Kevin Collins. He does post here, he knows both formats inside out, and he is FUD free.

Maybe they could even get Bill Hunt to do the BD side.

"Preferring"? I have no objection to the mass preference at all. What bothers me is how much misinformation or disregarding of real information goes on because of how everyone piles up on sources they don't like (regardless of veracity) and shoring up obvious BS.

For the last year the HDM forums have simply not been a reliable parcer of data, while other forums on AVS are. I think this is sad, but nothing will (or probably even can) be done as long as the member-bias situation continues as it currently is.


Sounds to me like you're just (*) frustrated these folks don't think the way you do, the terms preference and bias aren't interchangeable. By and large the HD DVD guys here prefer HD DVD on their own accord, any "bias" you sense is most likely is a result of (*).

Amir is the man, he has a way with words.


Art

True, most titles were not 1500kb's. Just for comparison, what are the stats on DD+ titles? What is the norm and what has been the highest?

The pther thing you are TOTALY tossing out is that DD+ allows for 24bit. That in and of it'self sets it a bar above any legacy sound system.

In fact you seem to dissmis the fact that Transformers is 24 bit.

It is CLEARLY "High Def" audio.

Btw, the closest thing to any stardard of "hi def" sound is HD Radio. That is on par to CD quality, so go figure...

I never implied they were equal. Merely asking out of curiousity. Thanks for the help :)

So curious, which titles are above 1.5 or 2.6? Any review sites that list the specs?

Not shure but I think there is a thread in the HD DVD forum that has all that info on a title by title basis.

Any of the TrueHD discs would almost certainly be above 1.5

I think it's about a 40-60 split with 640 to 1.5 or above.

np on the help:cool:

Why?

More people have A/V systems setup to play DD+. So more people will enjoy than could lossless.

Out of ALL the Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies I have seen, many of them lossless, Transformers audio was unsurpassed.

Seeing that all you need for lossless is: 1) HDMI with new decoding; 2) HDMI with a player that can decode TrueHD; 3) Analog with a player that can decode TrueHD, I'm not sure you're right.

The same mechanisms that pass DD+ pass TrueHD. And since all HD DVD players decode TrueHD, no problem!

[QUOTE=nakedeye;12000451]...

Besdies 640k DD+ beats 1.5 DTS hands down. They are not equal at all.

...QUOTE]

And you know this, how ? I will agree 1.5M DTS beats the crap out of 1.5 M DD+
:)

Quoted


Blu-Rays play in my PS3.

Rumor has it that since it can play DVD's, it's only a firmware update away from playing HD DVD's too.


You know, I actually believe that. I think all the Blu Ray players could play HD DVD's with a FW update. Too bad they don't issue such an update and make all the players dual players but then that's not what they want at this time.

-Brian

Originally Posted by briankmonkey
True, most titles were not 1500kb's. Just for comparison, what are the stats on DD+ titles? What is the norm and what has been the highest?

The pther thing you are TOTALY tossing out is that DD+ allows for 24bit. That in and of it'self sets it a bar above any legacy sound system.

In fact you seem to dissmis the fact that Transformers is 24 bit.

It is CLEARLY "High Def" audio.

Btw, the closest thing to any stardard of "hi def" sound is HD Radio. That is on par to CD quality, so go figure...


If you don't know that answer to the actual question which you quoted that is fine. Please quote me where I dismissed Transformers being 24 bit or where I tossed out DD+ allowing for 24 bit so I can at least undestand where you are coming from.

[QUOTE=nakedeye;12000451]...

Besdies 640k DD+ beats 1.5 DTS hands down. They are not equal at all.

...QUOTE]

And you know this, how ? I will agree 1.5M DTS beats the crap out of 1.5 M DD+
:)


I think you ment 1.5 DD+ beats the crap out of 1.5 DTS.

As far as the 640k DD+, Well I use my analog outs on my A1 and then switch to the DTS 1.5

The DD+ is way better.

Now to be fair, the Dac's in my A1 are better than my Onkyo. Also I'd bet that the re-encode process form DD+ to DTS may drop it a bit. I wonder if I have any discs with a 1.5 DTS and a 640k DD+ to test with...

Not shure but I think there is a thread in the HD DVD forum that has all that info on a title by title basis.

Any of the TrueHD discs would almost certainly be above 1.5

I think it's about a 40-60 split with 640 to 1.5 or above.

np on the help:cool:

Well I meant for DD+ as that is what you were talking about earlier when you said over 1.5, correct? Or was "DD+" a I typo in the quote below and you meant TrueHD? I merely asked because you're the first person I've seen indicated DD+ going over 1.5.

"Ohh and HD DVD can go to way higher than 2.6 for DD+"

I'll go check out that thread then. Thx.

I have not had time to read this entire thread yet.

Does ayone know of the proposed format for the debate, and or the time.

I have sent PM to Nelson at the Bay site, but I still don't know the answer.

My point really is and I should have made clear earlier. Just because a title recieves a 5/5 doesn't necessarily mean it can't or couldn't have sounded better. Also, there could be 8 HD DVD's (blu-ray's as well) all rated 5/5 on audio and PQ, that doesn't automatically guarantee they are all equal in respect to PQ and AQ. Just like LOTR on DVD, despite receiving the scores it received I have titles that IMO sound and look better.

so....reviews are subjective. I can agree with that. You seem to bring up this LOTR comparison (this is like the 3rd time I've seen it) as some sort of dig at hd-dvd..."well such and such was rated a 5/5..but we'll look back years from now and realize it's not 5/5". HDM releases, red and blue, are judged against each other. Quality will no doubt evolve and we'll see better titles in the years to come from both formats...but I'm still trying to figure out what your point was..besides nitpicking highly rated titles.

If you don't know that answer to the actual question which you quoted that is fine. Please quote me where I dismissed Transformers being 24 bit or where I tossed out DD+ allowing for 24 bit so I can at least undestand where you are coming from.


I think I am mixing you up with Supermans a bit. Sorry!:confused:

I think I am mixing you up with Supermans a bit. Sorry!:confused:

No problem. :)

Well I meant for DD+ as that is what you were talking about earlier when you said over 1.5, correct? Or was "DD+" a I typo in the quote below and you meant TrueHD? I merely asked because you're the first person I've seen indicated DD+ going over 1.5.



I'll go check out that thread then. Thx.


There was a post a bit back that stated DD+ on HD DVD can go to 6.6 or so. On BD I belive it can only go to 3.0?

Hey,

I think Kosty may be trying to "get the word out" because he was recommended to be in the debate and can't, or doesn't want, to be in it. And they want to get a person representing the HD DVD side by noon today.

I would recommend Lee Stewart or Rdjam as they carry the torch for HD DVD more then anyone else who post frequently. (At least that's my impression.)

I told Michealbay's webmaster that we debate HD DVD and Blu Ray pretty much round the clock over here so the project was pointless but he wants to go through with it anyway.

-Brian It was a timing issue.

I am available in the evenings but I have professional client business during today and tomorrow that make it tough for me to do real time stuff today and thursday during the day.

Just trying to get the word out.

I am willing to do this in the evening tomorrow or most any evening or if it is not real time the next day or so.

So DD+ goes up to 2.6? Any movies actually do that. I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD.

DD+ has a max bitrate of 3.0Mbps on HD DVD (1.7Mbps on BD) according to this chart:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4361/comparisontable800pxjl3.jpg
There are no movies, to my knowledge, that have any DD+ tracks above 1.5Mbps.

As for "I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD,' only Warner is using 16bit 640kbps DD+ tracks (as far as I know.) Paramount and Universal typically use 24bit 1.5Mbps DD+ tracks.

I think that chart is in accurate

I thought the deadline for finding a representative was 12 today. Anyone picked to be sacrificed yet?

Reminds me of Sid from Ice Age 2, being thrown into the volcano. Bad ju-ju. Bad ju-ju.

Moderator

what ever is posted on another forum: so be it

Here on AVS we would ask that every poster take the high road in every post

Many Thanks :)

^^^

what he said


several posts deleted/ warnings & points issued: please do not bash or insult other members

DD+ has a max bitrate of 3.0Mbps on HD DVD (1.7Mbps on BD) according to this chart:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4361/comparisontable800pxjl3.jpg
There are no movies, to my knowledge, that have any DD+ tracks above 1.5Mbps.

As for "I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD,' only Warner is using 16bit 640kbps DD+ tracks (as far as I know.) Paramount and Universal typically use 24bit 1.5Mbps DD+ tracks.

Thanks Steeb and Nakedeye (again) that helps a lot :) I thought it would be more fun to learn about this than continue with the Michael Bay same old same old for now. I'm sure I'll get sucked in later again :o

edit: oh nakedeye said inaccurate.. Hmm. I'd like to see what you believe to be different.

I think I am mixing you up with Supermans a bit. Sorry!:confused:

I'll be glad to answer any question regarding my comments. I am not perfect so if I made some mistake just point it out and I'll clarify and fix it. We all have strong opinions about these issues we are discussing and even though AVS is 80/20 in favor of HD-DVD, I will not be running and hiding in a blu-ray.com forum or any other forum for that matter. One is enough.. This Michael Bay.com forum discussion will come and go and I'm sure Michael bay has already made up his mind one way or another which format he prefers. However this discussion might simply strengthen that belief and maybe he makes a post which supports Blu-ray 100% as his format of choice this time however I don't see that happening as long as Paramount is holding the leash to his movie franchise. I'm hoping he does as the more support from big name directors Blu-ray gets, the better.. In either case, when is this debate happening? At what time? I feel like I am going to miss it by debating about the debate on here..lol..

I think that chart is in accurate
Then by all means - provide evidence to the contrary.

Dolby's website (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/dolby_digital_plus.html)
Features

- Multichannel sound with discrete channel output.
- Channel and program extensions can carry multichannel audio programs of up to 7.1 channels* and support multiple programs in a single encoded bitstream.
- Outputs a Dolby Digital bitstream for playback on existing Dolby Digital systems.
- Supports data rates as high as 6 Mbps.
- Bit rate performance of at least 3 Mbps on HD DVD and up to 1.7 Mbps on Blu-ray Disc.
- Accurately reproduces what the director and producer intended.
- Interactive mixing and streaming capability in advanced systems.
- Supported by HDMI™, the new single-cable digital connection for high-definition audio and video.

Will all HD-DVD titles that suffer from lack of bitrate or space suddenly get re-issued for a double dip or will they do an even exchange for free as Sony did with "The Fifth Element"? I'm talking about Transformers, King Kong, The Jack Ryan Collection, Troy to name a few just to add the lossless audio track and perhaps some extras which are lacking in all those releases mentioned..

So you are comparing King Kong, Transformers, etc. to The Fifth Element, a title that was universally panned for it's terrible quality as well as having been released prematurely ostensibly with a "customer be damned" mindset in order to compete with HD DVD's early launch?

And somehow or another this post claims to put them on an equal footing? This boggles the imagination.

Never kid yourself, The Fifth Element exchange was down in recognition of the anti-consumer nature of the original Blu-ray launch and in order to mitigate the continuing negative PR that title propagated. It was not just because a better release was available.

I willing to do this, so are many other people here at AVS.

PM me and I can help choose and will coordinate with the AVS HD DVD representative.

If its WickyWoo, I feel comfortable in representing HD DVD, even though I think we are moving to a dual format dual player hradware model over time..

Then by all means - provide evidence to the contrary.

I am probably wrong but I tought I remember seeing alot of posts saying that not only the bit rate is higher than waht that chart says, but also that the number of chans is also quite a bit higher.

I don't have time to search so I'll pass to you for now!

I'll be glad to answer any question regarding my comments. I am not perfect so if I made some mistake just point it out and I'll clarify and fix it..

24 bit audio is most certainly "hi def"

As I see it, the Transformers HD-DVD did not even have lossless sound on it, so how can anybody argue that HD-DVD is a viable medium for this movie? I think the theatrical footprint was even greater than what one could contain on a Blu-ray disk, but at least it could hold the HD Dolby soundtrack, if not PCM.

I am probably wrong but I tought I remember seeing alot of posts saying that not only the bit rate is higher than waht that chart says, but also that the number of chans is also quite a bit higher.

I don't have time to search so I'll pass to you for now!

Okay, here's where the chart came from - Dolby's Website.

Link. (http://www.dolby.com/professional/pro_audio_engineering/solutions_dvd3.html)

Scroll down a little and there ya go.

It was a timing issue.

I am available in the evenings but I have professional client business during today and tomorrow that make it tough for me to do real time stuff today and thursday during the day.

Just trying to get the word out.

I am willing to do this in the evening tomorrow or most any evening or if it is not real time the next day or so.

It has already started...read on:)

DD+ has a max bitrate of 3.0Mbps on HD DVD (1.7Mbps on BD) according to this chart:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4361/comparisontable800pxjl3.jpg
There are no movies, to my knowledge, that have any DD+ tracks above 1.5Mbps.

As for "I've read the majority aren't much higher than 448k on HD-DVD,' only Warner is using 16bit 640kbps DD+ tracks (as far as I know.) Paramount and Universal typically use 24bit 1.5Mbps DD+ tracks.

This maybe off topic..but if 51tl becomes a reality and is backwards compatable what would the bandwidth be increased to from both and audio and video standpoint?

And if thier was an increase would it matter?

This maybe off topic..but if 51tl becomes a reality and is backwards compatable what would the bandwidth be increased to from both and audio and video standpoint?

And if thier was an increase would it matter?

No.

Sounds to me like you're just (*) frustrated these folks don't think the way you do,

I pretty much deal with people who don't "think the way I do" for a living and it doesn't bother me. For example, I don't think think the Paramount deal was ethical, while obviously many here do. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. Otoh, many people here continue to pretend there wasn't a payoff, even though laws (and lawsuits) prevent the NYT from making their quotes up, and Toshiba admitted they paid Paramount. I don't care that you disagree wtih me about the interpretation of the situation, but the best facts are that Paramount was a paid a not-insubstantial amount of money for their choice, and disagreeing with that is bias or a lack understanding of standards of evidence.

the terms preference and bias aren't interchangeable.

Oh? Let me switch them to suit your preference then: At least BD.com admits their bias, while the doctrinally neutral AVS consistenly filters information according to the preference of its users. It's not AVS as an organization that's doing this, it's the overwhelming preference of the board users that ignores reasonable but unpopular information while raising to near-factual proportions speculative information that is popular with boardmembers.


By and large the HD DVD guys here prefer HD DVD on their own accord, any "bias" you sense is most likely is a result of (*).

I have no issue with the reasons why many people here like HD DVD. Nor is it unusual for people with similar viewpoints to congregate socially (and the internet makes that even easier). It doesn't change the fact that the overt preferences of the HDM boards here radically skews which data is viewed as "true" and which data is discarded, and that those shifts are entirely due to the insular nature of the boards, where pro HD DVD people can take solace in finding several dozen confirmatory posts, even when the data does not support their viewpoint.

That is what I lament. Not the personal preference, or that people disagree with me or anyone else, but that the preference is overwhelming what the actual data says on an almost daily basis. And since these are the Audio Video SCIENCE boards, I find that really unfortunate.

I would say that DVDs using 1500kb/s are NOT the standard.

E-AC-3, more commonly known as Dolby Digital Plus, is an enhanced coding system based on the AC-3 codec. It offers increased bitrates (up to 6.144 Mbit/s), support for more audio channels (up to 13.1), improved coding techniques to reduce compression artifacts, and backward compatibility with existing AC-3 hardware.

This is more in line of what I was thinking with reguards to DD+

Not sure why many people think this when Dolby's own site contradicts it:confused:

It has already started...read on:)

Might have got lost in the shuffle but was someone nominated to represent AVS yet?

As I see it, the Transformers HD-DVD did not even have lossless sound on it, so how can anybody argue that HD-DVD is a viable medium for this movie? I think the theatrical footprint was even greater than what one could contain on a Blu-ray disk, but at least it could hold the HD Dolby soundtrack, if not PCM.

Alexander Revisited on BR has a Dolby Digital track at 640kbs, should we argue that BR is not a viable medium for this movie?

Might have got lost in the shuffle but was someone nominated to represent AVS yet?

Been wondering that myself, but unfortunately another pissing contest erupted on the virtues of DD+ and other forms of audio. :(

This is more in line of what I was thinking with reguards to DD+

Not sure why many people think this when Dolby's own site contradicts it:confused:

I think I see where the confusion is coming from. DD+ itself can go up to 6Mbps. For whatever reason, the limits for HDM are lower.

Might have got lost in the shuffle but was someone nominated to represent AVS yet?

HDTV Tivo dealer would be a good AVS rep that supports HD-DVD over Blu-ray..

Might have got lost in the shuffle but was someone nominated to represent AVS yet?

yes, everyone who quotes BD fanboys.....:)

I think the details are still up in the air.

I can do it if it is not Thursday daytime.

I will do it if no one has any real objections. Or if anyone else wants to do it......

PM me or post here with any thoughts.

I've long stated I think that I will eventually get a Blu-ray player, with BD-Live and 1.1. or 2.0 profile, when their at the right price, just to watch Sony content alone, since I'm a home theater HD fan.

I currently have a Toshiba HD XA1 and Toshiba HD XA2.

What do you guys think of me representing the HD DVD point of view?

I think I see where the confusion is coming from. DD+ itself can go up to 6Mbps. For whatever reason, the limits for HDM are lower.

There you go then!

It was a timing issue.Speaking of timing...

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that, for an honest Format "Debate," this is very, very short notice to get someone in who will represent HD DVD? The first post on SFTE is timestamped yesterday at 10:48 AM... that's, what... just over 24 hours?

Call me jaded, but this smacks of set-up... like Blu-ray.com has already picked their "ringer" well in advance of the offer to "debate" ever even being extended to AVS.

One side well-prepped, the other scrambling to get "someone" in on time.

Seems like a very Sony-esque contrivance, if you ask me. :(

I think the details are still up in the air.

I can do it if it is not Thursday daytime.

I will do it if no one has any real objections. Or if anyone else wants to do it......

PM me or post here with any thoughts.

I've long stated I think that I will eventually get a Blu-ray player, with BD-Live and 1.1. or 2.0 profile, when their at the right price, just to watch Sony content alone, since I'm a home theater HD fan.

I currently have a Toshiba HD XA1 and Toshiba HD XA2.

What do you guys think of me representing the HD DVD point of view?

Well there is nothing wrong to purchase a BD player to be able to watch BD content. We love movies 1st formats 2nd.

The risk with a HD DVD supporter that just ownes HD DVD is that it could be a target point when they take BD titles as an example and you havnt seen it.

No offense, but I pretty much deal with people who don't "think the way I do" for a living. For example, I don't think think the Paramount deal was ethical, while obviously many here do. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. Otoh, many people here continue to pretend there wasn't a payoff, even though laws (and lawsuits) prevent the NYT from making their quotes up, and Toshiba admitted they paid Paramount. I don't care that you disagree wtih me about the interpretation of the situation, but the best facts are that Paramount was a paid a not-insubstantial amount of money for their choice, and disagreeing with that is bias or a lack understanding of standards of evidence.

Absolutely. Let me sitch them then: At least BD.com admits their bias, while the doctrinally neutral AVS consistenly filters information according to the preference of its users. It's not AVS as an organization that's doing this, it's the overwhelming preference of the board users that ignores reasonable but unpoplar information while raising to near-factual proportions speculative information that is popular with boardmembers.

I have no issue with the reasons why many people here like HD DVD. Nor is it unusual for people with similar viewpoints to congregate socially (and the internet makes that even easier). It doesn't change the fact that the overt preferences of the HDM boards here radically skews which data is viewed as "true" and which data is discarded, and that those shifts are entirely due to the insular nature of the boards, where pro HD DVD people can take solace in finding several dozen confirmatory posts, even when the data does not support their viewpoint.

That is what I lament. Not the personal preference, or that people disagree with me or anyone else, but that the preference is overwhelming what the actual data says on an almost daily basis. And since these are the Audio Video SCIENCE boards, I find that really unfortunate.

By the paragraphs: Promotional fees, thats what Toshiba "admitted" to, I read the entire article, the one with the actual quotes. Define that; (promotional fees) i.e. get a clear concise answer on that they meant by that and you may just find out that it wasn't as sinister as some make it out to be. It's almost as if people think the EU investigations were viewed as a joke by some of these guys, I'm fairly confident they took them seriously and proceeded into whatever negotiations there were with that in mind. Unnamed sources can and have been wrong in the past. Seriously, these "pay offs" are probably a dangerous road to go down, no telling what kind of pre-EU investigations; skeletons we may find in Hollywoods closets.

Honestly don't see a problem with the second paragraph, without a specific example of filtering. All sorts of forums do the same, call it like-minded-ness or whatever, its not all that uncommon. Some specific examples in the third would make it easier to respond, very specific examples. Pretend this board preferred Burger King, would you be advocating they ate more Mc Donalds?

Again, it almost sounds as if you think because Blu-ray is outselling HD DVD (and I readily admit it is) that everyone here should toss off their red hat and put on a blue one. To be quite honest the "science" portion of AVS was compromised the day the first gaming forum was added, I honestly think its too far gone on that one, I'd be happy to be wrong however.

Guys,

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

Seriously. Page one of that stupid thread already has the BD fanboys like doby trashing AVS and the other Blu-ray.com sheep go right in lockstep.

I'm serious guys, you are asking for trouble if you participate in this. There is no way this is going to be fair, and no way it's going to be productive.

+1

yes, everyone who quotes BD fanboys.....:)

I'll readily admit I get a bit out of it when the seasons change, but I don't get that one :)

Kosty, you are very knowledgeable on the subject, but Lee Stewart really has teeth when it comes to HD-DVD debates. I think you are qualified, but I think Lee could tear into em a little harder.