http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/home_entertainment/news/e3i67186c6df1899184e8d6189a873dc639

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/home_entertainment/news/e3i67186c6df1899184e8d6189a873dc639

Unfortunately, I must agree with most everything in that article.

Right now the BD or Meet the Robinsons is double the price of the DVD. Which do you think people are going to buy?

The hesitation, the NPD study revealed, stems from a variety of factors, most notably high player prices (cited as the major deterrent by 72% of respondents). Another 70% said they were holding off because they saw no immediate need to replace their existing DVD players, while 60% said they get their high-definition movies from cable or satellite, and 54% said they intend to hold off buying a player until the format war between Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD is resolved.

So price is the #1 factor. Luckily that is one of the biggest things that can be changed because prices are guaranteed to fall (for players, media desperately needs to change to).

Number 2 factor is the "DVD is good" factor. I think studios should start to release the HD DVD/Blu-Ray versions of new releases a week or so before the DVD release. It wouldn't be screwing the customer by saying "we're killing DVD suckers" it would just be saying "HDM is the way of the future for home entertainment

#3, so people get HD movies from other sources. Well it is definitely cheaper! And if people are happy enough with HD movies from other sources then I think all the bickering about which format has better PQ is completely moot.

54% say the format war. Well luckily it isn't the number 1 reason. The top two reasons can be dealt with time and appropriate measures.

/agreed. Though I've been eyeing the HD-A2 recently, but we usually spend more for our players anyways (we traditionally like 5 disk changers).

It's really down to getting an Upconverting player or going HD-DVD with the A2 at this point, I just don't want to deal with firmware problems and player lock-ups and all of that stuff.

72% said high player prices. At $299 or less?:confused:

The main issue is the evolutionary nature of HDM. People just aren't in love with it. And the survey bears this out - 11% said they will "probably" buy a player:(

72% said high player prices. At $299 or less?:confused:

The main issue is the evolutionary nature of HDM. People just aren't in love with it. And the survey bears this out - 11% said they will "probably" buy a player:(

yep, and the close minded elitists on avs won't ever realize that. what people don't understand is that average consumer sees both blu-ray and hd dvd as nothing more than fancy dvd players. they don't care about lossless audio, they dont care about 1080p/24, they don't care about ime. dvd's are cheap, they're everywhere, and their $20 cyberhome player will play it just find on their new 50" set. No need to spend $300 on a new dvd player just to watch movies on. I'll never buy a dvd again, and i have a 120" screen and can get lossless audio on my setup, but im not stupid enough to think that everyone is the same way, or that everyone cares about lossless audio, 1080p, or increased bandwidth.

Price has been exactly my reason for being single format. Sorry, but that is the way it is. Some of us with wives and 3 year olds just don't have an extra $499 to toss at a movie player. Moreover, it doesn't get good approval from the wife in question. And anyone on here who tells you they override the wife or tell her they're getting it anyway is lying to you.

I have the Xbox 360 add-on because it was $200. I could sell $200. I have yet to be able to successfully sell $499. Once again, I am sorry the "elite" folks on this forum don't seem to be able to grasp this. $299 I can sell. I see no current Blu-ray player for $299. When one becomes available that is current and isn't going to be out of date profile-wise the day I buy it, then I'm in.

Until then, count me in that 72%. Where I've been all year long.

Right now the BD or Meet the Robinsons is double the price of the DVD. Which do you think people are going to buy?

After seeing the movie in theaters? Neither. Just kidding. I agree the HDM prices are a bit out of control. Especially Fox. Bare bones legacy titles at $40? You have to be kidding....

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?

Price has been exactly my reason for being single format. Sorry, but that is the way it is. Some of us with wives and 3 year olds just don't have an extra $499 to toss at a movie player. Moreover, it doesn't get good approval from the wife in question. And anyone on here who tells you they override the wife or tell her they're getting it anyway is lying to you.

I have the Xbox 360 add-on because it was $200. I could sell $200. I have yet to be able to successfully sell $499. Once again, I am sorry the "elite" folks on this forum don't seem to be able to grasp this. $299 I can sell. I see no current Blu-ray player for $299. When one becomes available that is current and isn't going to be out of date profile-wise the day I buy it, then I'm in.

Until then, count me in that 72%. Where I've been all year long.

Price has been exactly my reason for being single format. Sorry, but that is the way it is. Some of us with wives and 3 year olds just don't have an extra $499 to toss at a movie player. Moreover, it doesn't get good approval from the wife in question. And anyone on here who tells you they override the wife or tell her they're getting it anyway is lying to you.

I have the Xbox 360 add-on because it was $200. I could sell $200. I have yet to be able to successfully sell $499. Once again, I am sorry the "elite" folks on this forum don't seem to be able to grasp this. $299 I can sell. I see no current Blu-ray player for $299. When one becomes available that is current and isn't going to be out of date profile-wise the day I buy it, then I'm in.

Until then, count me in that 72%. Where I've been all year long.

<Urza sneaks in, makes a whipping sound effect>:p

j/k dude!

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?

Yep. Again, it's why I own the Xbox 360 Add-on, and not an XA2. ;)


<Urza sneaks in, makes a whipping sound effect>:p

j/k dude!

Haha, you laugh dude. That whip keeps me from sleeping in the car at night. :)

Old Data, recycled yet again. When did this data first come out, August September?
It points out the uphill fight to displace DVD, but that hasn't changed.

Russ Crupnick applauded the Panasonic funded Disney magic carpet ride bus tour, Why?
18 malls doesn't do near enough to raise awareness. The summer theater ad campaign did more to inform.

Yep. Again, it's why I own the Xbox 360 Add-on, and not an XA2. ;)




Haha, you laugh dude. That whip keeps me from sleeping in the car at night. :)

That's totally fair. I didn't get into the HD game until I could gather enough Amazon.com gift certificates to get the Samsung 1400 for $340. Though had I waited a week, I could have gotten it for $290. Ah well.

72% said high player prices. At $299 or less?:confused:



Yep, because for the vast majority of people in North America, $300 is too big a chunk of money to spend on a "dvd player", which is how they look at it.

$200 will open quite a few more wallets though and at $150 the floodgates will probably begin to open.

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?

Way to high for a "DVD Player" and an "ok" price at best for a "video game".

Don't get me wrong, the $399 PS3 will sell a few hundred thousand units but those will be mostly to hard core gamers who are far more likely to sell that free copy of SM3 on ebay for more game money than to watch it.

Video game consoles will never become mainstream enough (80 million+ units sold) to replace DVD players.

The format war will be decided by stand alone, dedicated players and 95% of the public will never buy them when they come with a $200+ price tag.

I spent enough years managing retail stores to know what the general public will be willing to pay for new technologies.

Both standard DVD players back in the late 90's and upconverting players just a couple of years ago, didn't start to really sell until they dropped to $150 or less and we will not see really big numbers of HD players start to move each month (hundreds of thousands) until a company puts one of them on a store shelf at that price as well.

People are already scared away by high TV prices. Then they see players that are $300 and up. They see discs that cost twice as much as regular DVDs. They wonder if they can even rent many of the HD discs once they do buy a player.

Then they hear things like how the low-priced Toshiba players aren't able to do full 1080p. They don't necessarily know what 1080p is, but they know something better costs more, and it scares them away from a purchase. Then they start hearing things like version 1.0 and 1.1 not playing discs right, HDMI that's not compatible between some models of TVs and players -- they just throw up their arms and say, "SCREW THIS! I'll wait!"

And don't for one second think that consumers out there ignore the ability to back up their own discs. You can't easily do that with HD movies, and studios keep fighting to keep people from being able to do it legally.

Right now the BD or Meet the Robinsons is double the price of the DVD. Which do you think people are going to buy?

Not at BB the blu is $22.49 and the DVD is $14.99. These are B&M prices.

Way to high for a "DVD Player" and an "ok" price at best for a "video game".

Don't get me wrong, the $399 PS3 will sell a few hundred thousand units but those will be mostly to hard core gamers who are far more likely to sell that free copy of SM3 on ebay for more game money than to watch it.

Video game consoles will never become mainstream enough (80 million+ units sold) to replace DVD players.

The format war will be decided by stand alone, dedicated players and 95% of the public will never buy them when they come with a $200+ price tag.

I spent enough years managing retail stores to know what the general public will be willing to pay for new technologies.

Both standard DVD players back in the late 90's and upconverting players just a couple of years ago, didn't start to really sell until they dropped to $150 or less and we will not see really big numbers of HD players start to move each month (hundreds of thousands) until a company puts one of them on a store shelf at that price as well.


I think there will be some (not a lot) folks that pick up the $399 PS3 for BluRay playback only. I purchased the 60Gb PS3 in August after the price drop solely for that purpose. My reasoning being that if BluRay fails as a format, it can still be used as a gaming system albeit a 3rd place videogame system.

Oh, I wasn't trying to argue that $399 is the sweetspot for mass-market DVD players. To be honest, I don't even think $150 is. Until media prices get more reasonable and people can play whatever movie they want, I don't think HD DVD or Blu-ray is going anywhere fast.

As many people have said, you can get $50 upconverting players and $5 dvds. $20 at most for new releases, and that's ALL new releases.

Way to high for a "DVD Player" and an "ok" price at best for a "video game".

Don't get me wrong, the $399 PS3 will sell a few hundred thousand units but those will be mostly to hard core gamers who are far more likely to sell that free copy of SM3 on ebay for more game money than to watch it.

Video game consoles will never become mainstream enough (80 million+ units sold) to replace DVD players.

The format war will be decided by stand alone, dedicated players and 95% of the public will never buy them when they come with a $200+ price tag.

I spent enough years managing retail stores to know what the general public will be willing to pay for new technologies.

Both standard DVD players back in the late 90's and upconverting players just a couple of years ago, didn't start to really sell until they dropped to $150 or less and we will not see really big numbers of HD players start to move each month (hundreds of thousands) until a company puts one of them on a store shelf at that price as well.

Well we have come to that point in the road . . . the time of put up or shut up. Now we see if the public is really interested in HDM:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/wal-mart198.jpg

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)...As the above rack looks untouched, I don't see Walmart moving a lot of any product at $198....particularly with no ability to rent locally and $25 to $40 per disc. That is a lot of dough to the average Walmart shopper..

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)...As the above rack looks untouched, I don't see Walmart moving a lot of any product at $198....particularly with no ability to rent locally and $25 to $40 per disc. That is a lot of dough to the average Walmart shopper..

Especially when Walmart sells DVD's for $1 to $5's and has $20 DVD players...

You guys crack me up!

Of course Target . . . whose demographic is even lower than WM is going to sell $499 S300's and $30 BD's and HD DVD's? So is this once again the BD double standard?

Guys . . .

4300 WM stores in the USA alone. 6500 WW. Can you imagine all of them selling $198 HD DVD players?:D

Oh . . . BTW - WM is now #2 in CE sales behind BB. They have revamped their CE areas and are bringing in well know brands of CE products (like Special Sony LCD HDTV's)

So I call BS on both of your posts!:p

PS: - An endcap at Target:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/1010072154.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/laughing.gif

Correcton to Lee: target's demographic is not lower than WM. Their revenue is lower, not the same thing. I will agree on 1 thing though, a $400 player at Target will not move anywhere near what a <$200 player will move at WM. I don't care which format it is.

I thought Walmart's demographic is about $16,000 year annual income..

Good to see only the display model is left in the Blu Ray picture!!!:D

I thought Walmart's demographic is about $16,000 year annual income..

Good to see only the display model is left in the Blu Ray picture!!!:D

Costco, which has the highest average salary per customer of the national chain retailers, stocks tons of quick selling HD DVD players in most of its' stores and only stocks blu ray players in a few of its' stores.

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)...As the above rack looks untouched, I don't see Walmart moving a lot of any product at $198....particularly with no ability to rent locally and $25 to $40 per disc. That is a lot of dough to the average Walmart shopper..

Because it is clearly impossible for people who are looking for a HD DVD player to say "hmm... there is a HD DVD player at Wal-Mart for $100 cheaper than Best Buy, too bad I am a Best Buy demographic or I could walk into Wal-Mart"

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)....

And now I think I have read it all. :eek:

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?

Definitely!

This just reinforces my opinion that HDM will remain a niche market.

And to add to the price comparisons, most households already have a standard definition DVD player which is "good enough" for them. Therefore, it is not just the price difference between a $30 cheap-o player and a $XXX HDM player; it is the total price of the HDM player. Plus the $XXXX pricetag of a HDTV that can take actually show the difference over the TV currently in their living room. Plus the $XXX of an AV receiver that can let them take advantage of the new audio formats. I'll assume that they already have a decent 5.1 speaker setup so they won't have to spend any more money there. All of the software is twice as expensive.

It all adds up to an enthusiasts-only answer. I think that all of us here want to see HDM survive and thrive, but I think that standard DVD is too cheap and good enough of a solution for many that HDM will remain a niche.

Look there is growth in both segments and although its not the ridiculous meteoric rise of DVD it is there none the less. The studios are looking for something to offset the slow decline in sales of DVD and this combined with downloads and VOD is doing the trick. I think the absurd assumptions made early on about volume doubling each quarter needs to be tempered. Remember that silly fox graph from the begining of the year. Both formats are tracking upwards. Once both sides hit a million plus dedicated players I think we can assume that we will have hit the niche survivable phase. (i.e. The market is large enough to sustain itself.) if not already. At least we are further along than SACD and DVD-Audio at this point imo.

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?

$299 would be better.

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)...As the above rack looks untouched, I don't see Walmart moving a lot of any product at $198....particularly with no ability to rent locally and $25 to $40 per disc. That is a lot of dough to the average Walmart shopper..
It's a photo. It doesn't change. They may have stocked it five minutes before and it may have been empty five minutes after the photo was taken. We don't know. Photos are weird like that.

Price has been exactly my reason for being single format. Sorry, but that is the way it is. Some of us with wives and 3 year olds just don't have an extra $499 to toss at a movie player. Moreover, it doesn't get good approval from the wife in question. And anyone on here who tells you they override the wife or tell her they're getting it anyway is lying to you.

I have the Xbox 360 add-on because it was $200. I could sell $200. I have yet to be able to successfully sell $499. Once again, I am sorry the "elite" folks on this forum don't seem to be able to grasp this. $299 I can sell. I see no current Blu-ray player for $299. When one becomes available that is current and isn't going to be out of date profile-wise the day I buy it, then I'm in.

Until then, count me in that 72%. Where I've been all year long.

I hear what you're saying and I dont have the bulging bank account like some guys do. However, if you're crafty and pay attention to sales and deals, you can pull off the dual-support.

- My Toshy A2 was just $299....not a big purchase even for modest 'ol me. I was in the market for a new DVD player anyway so the overcost for an HD player was easier to justify and it plays our old discs too.

- I got my PS3 with 0% financing for almost 14 months through SonyStyle. Now, I know that credit debt in America is a crisis....but we have used the zero payment/zero interest deals for many other items in our house and we always pay them off before D-Day. The wifey loves these kinds of deals and I can swing just about anything using this type of payment arrangement. Usually, our fairly decent tax return(because Im so damned poor) each year pays for whatever we bought the previous year. Works like a charm. :D

I know that this wont work for everyone but there are ways to get the toys you want without waiting months on end. Life is way too short to NOT enjoy the things you like. Dont save too much money.....what the fock are you gonna do with it anyways? Live life to the fullest. ;)

My brother-in-law is joe six pack. He came down and watched a few movies over the weekend, including Transformers on HD DVD. He recently bought a 57" DLP TV. I told him about the $198 players at Wal-Mart and he was uninterested. He has a Sony "HD DVD" player that he got with his TV and was told it plays all disks. It took me 20 minutes at Best Buy with a hands on tutorial to explain the 3 different disks within an arms length. He of course gravitated to the cheapest ones (SD DVD) and said his player will play the cheapest ones HD on his HD player and HDTV.

Good grief.

I think the $198 price at Walmart a good start for HD DVD but if anyone does basic research or ask questions on the A2, they will find out that it's the 2nd gen player that has been replaced by the A3/Gen3. That might make people 2nd think about getting something has has already been replaced by the manufacturer. You know, like when the iPod Gen3 came out, who wanted the 2nd gen old model.

I still believe the 2 biggest factors is movie selection(fomat specific) and disc prices that keep most people away.

It also doesn't help that when you go to one Walmart/Target/BlockBuster that it has a decent selection of HDM discs while others have a selection of none to a few.
This gives the perception that aren't readily available everywhere.

Also, most people still watch their DVD's using the composite/S-video output and haven't even moved up to component/progressive.

Right now the BD or Meet the Robinsons is double the price of the DVD. Which do you think people are going to buy?
Oh, so now high priced discs are exclusive to Blu-ray.:rolleyes:

Day and Date prices:
Transformers HD DVD = $29.99
Transformers DVD = $14.99
And don't start spouting the CC BOGO error or the Amazon $27.99.
Most people paid $29.99

yep, and the close minded elitists on avs won't ever realize that. what people don't understand is that average consumer sees both blu-ray and hd dvd as nothing more than fancy dvd players. they don't care about lossless audio, they dont care about 1080p/24, they don't care about ime. dvd's are cheap, they're everywhere, and their $20 cyberhome player will play it just find on their new 50" set. No need to spend $300 on a new dvd player just to watch movies on. I'll never buy a dvd again, and i have a 120" screen and can get lossless audio on my setup, but im not stupid enough to think that everyone is the same way, or that everyone cares about lossless audio, 1080p, or increased bandwidth.

Very well said sir.....the whole "people think $299 is too expensive?" kind of statements show a true "elitist" attitude and I think many in that same mindset have no idea how things work outside their "HT Elitist world".

you know, the thing is that while I tend to see the Blu side always speaking of things like 50gig disk, game machine/player combo, 2-1 current ratio etc, the HD side is more on the subject of $198 player in WM, price is the way to go for the masses, picture looks equal why pay more etc...what format do you think the average consumer is going to buy at first if at all.....I have to say HD DVD, considering price and the current information.

My brother-in-law is joe six pack. He came down and watched a few movies over the weekend, including Transformers on HD DVD. He recently bought a 57" DLP TV. I told him about the $198 players at Wal-Mart and he was uninterested. He has a Sony "HD DVD" player that he got with his TV and was told it plays all disks. It took me 20 minutes at Best Buy with a hands on tutorial to explain the 3 different disks within an arms length. He of course gravitated to the cheapest ones (SD DVD) and said his player will play the cheapest ones HD on his HD player and HDTV.

Good grief.

Crazy isnt it? They'll buy a $1500 dollar TV but you cant get them to drop $200-$300 bucks on a good HD DVD player that WILL play all discs. Thats crazy....but your bro-inlaw isnt the only one. My own damned brother, the movie hobbyist, is claiming that upconverting is good enough for him and he cant justify the cost. I reminded him that he does NOT have to rebuy all of his SD discs but he responds by saying that if he has the HD option then he will feel compelled to rebuy everything and thats too expensive.

I see his point....but UGGGHHH!!!! :mad:

Crazy isnt it? They'll buy a $1500 dollar TV but you cant get them to drop $200-$300 bucks on a good HD DVD player that WILL play all discs. Thats crazy....but your bro-inlaw isnt the only one. My own damned brother, the movie hobbyist, is claiming that upconverting is good enough for him and he cant justify the cost. I reminded him that he does NOT have to rebuy all of his SD discs but he responds by saying that if he has the HD option then he will feel compelled to rebuy everything and thats too expensive.

I see his point....but UGGGHHH!!!! :mad:

I think part of the problem is that $200-300 player WON'T play all discs. But thanks to retailer confusion, even selling $200 players won't be easy: take for instance, this description of a Samsung upconverting player on Wal-Mart's website:

"Designed for those who want nothing less than HDTV quality, the DVD-HD1080P7 unconverts the resoultion of conventional DVDs to 720p/1080i/1080p, enabling amazing clarity in viewing." :eek:

I think part of the problem is that $200-300 player WON'T play all discs. But thanks to retailer confusion, even selling $200 players won't be easy: take for instance, this description of a Samsung upconverting player on Wal-Mart's website:

"Designed for those who want nothing less than HDTV quality, the DVD-HD1080P7 unconverts the resoultion of conventional DVDs to 720p/1080i/1080p, enabling amazing clarity in viewing." :eek:


Yup..I already pointed out this arguement here a while ago:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=926459

yep, and the close minded elitists on avs won't ever realize that. what people don't understand is that average consumer sees both blu-ray and hd dvd as nothing more than fancy dvd players. they don't care about lossless audio, they dont care about 1080p/24, they don't care about ime. dvd's are cheap, they're everywhere, and their $20 cyberhome player will play it just find on their new 50" set. No need to spend $300 on a new dvd player just to watch movies on. I'll never buy a dvd again, and i have a 120" screen and can get lossless audio on my setup, but im not stupid enough to think that everyone is the same way, or that everyone cares about lossless audio, 1080p, or increased bandwidth.
Agreed.

I think it's funny that HD DVD fans see $199 as the magic hardware number when so many J6Ps are happy as all get-out with their "1080p, Hi-Def" upscaling, 75 dollar "HD" DVD players. Now when those players break down in 20 years...

What about a $399 PS3? Still to high?
Not for a lot of gamers who get a bonus BD player.

Crazy isnt it? They'll buy a $1500 dollar TV but you cant get them to drop $200-$300 bucks on a good HD DVD player that WILL play all discs. Thats crazy....but your bro-inlaw isnt the only one. My own damned brother, the movie hobbyist, is claiming that upconverting is good enough for him and he cant justify the cost. I reminded him that he does NOT have to rebuy all of his SD discs but he responds by saying that if he has the HD option then he will feel compelled to rebuy everything and thats too expensive.

I see his point....but UGGGHHH!!!! :mad:

By the time us lowbrows drop $1500+ on a TV it's very difficult to justify another $200-300 on a player when we have a perfectly good working DVD player at home (I'd spend the extra on a bigger TV if I had it). Also, since my DVD player is a HTIB with only stereo inputs I'd be giving up what little sound quality I have. So its not just another $200 for a player, its also another $300+ for a sound system.

You gotta give us a chance to catch our breath and pay down the credit card a bit before expecting us to jump into HD. I expect that a lot of people who got their first HDTV in the last year will be wondering what all to hoopla about High Def is. They might not be willing to drop 400 bucks ("A quarter of my TV for a DVD player, are you nuts?") but $150-200 is "mad money".


To the commenter who mentioned that the picture of the rack at WalMart looked "untouched". The original poster stated in his post that the display was taken down immediately because the sale was supposed to start 11/3. I've seen another post where the poster called WalMarts in their area. 2 had not yet received their shipments. The third had 2 left of the 16 they received after 2 days (I guess not all of the managers pay attention to starting dates of sales).

All of the PS3 comments are amazing to me.

I hear all the time how the PS3 is the best BD player (less issues, etc.). It always seems to be recommended most to new owners (here and on the Blu-ray websites, too).

Hell, on beatboy77's site, 5 out of 6 reviewers use a PS3 (http://hidefpreview.com/about%20us%202.html) as their Blu-ray player for doing reviews. (And I still can't figure out how they got lossless sound from it for their Nature's Journey BD review :rolleyes:).

IMO, as long as the best and cheapest Blu-ray player is a game machine (PS3) Blu-ray is in trouble.

You guys crack me up!

Of course Target . . . whose demographic is even lower than WM...
WHAT???!!! When did this happen?
.
.

Yup..I already pointed out this arguement here a while ago:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=926459

You'll forgive me if i didn't go searching the forum to see if this has been brought up before. ;)

Crazy isnt it? They'll buy a $1500 dollar TV but you cant get them to drop $200-$300 bucks on a good HD DVD player that WILL play all discs. Thats crazy....but your bro-inlaw isnt the only one. My own damned brother, the movie hobbyist, is claiming that upconverting is good enough for him and he cant justify the cost. I reminded him that he does NOT have to rebuy all of his SD discs but he responds by saying that if he has the HD option then he will feel compelled to rebuy everything and thats too expensive.

I see his point....but UGGGHHH!!!! :mad:
I think a lot of people that enter into the hi-def TV world are already extending their budget. Hard to justify the extra dough to the Mrs. when you're already in the doghouse.

By the time us lowbrows drop $1500+ on a TV it's very difficult to justify another $200-300 on a player when we have a perfectly good working DVD player at home...
You beat me to it. :)

Curious...

Since this "war" has been going on for two years now, how many folks in your circle of friends, family, co-workers etc are talking about HD or Blu? How many say they are gonna run out and buy one?

I hear ZERO..I mean ZERO talk about it in my circle...and many of these folks are gadget freaks..they LOVE new stuff...they almost all own hi-def TV AND hd service...yet none even say a word about either format.

Contrast that with the 2-3 year point of SD and almost every friend I knew and some co-workers were VERY excited about SD DVD and asked a bunch of questions...and several took the plunge..many did wait till the early 2000's but it caught on like wild fire.

So why little to no water cooler talk about the formats? Is that a sign that this is indeed a niche product line or will we suddenly see a huge burst of "I gotta have both of those machines ASAP!!" conversations? If so, when?

Thoughts?

Curious...

..they LOVE new stuff...they almost all own hi-def TV AND hd service...yet none even say a word about either format.

?

now that is strange to me. If they are elctronics geeks and already supposedly 'love' their hdtv and hd programming why/how would they be happy with crappy SD discs?

Curious...

Since this "war" has been going on for two years now, how many folks in your circle of friends, family, co-workers etc are talking about HD or Blu? How many say they are gonna run out and buy one?

I hear ZERO..I mean ZERO talk about it in my circle...and many of these folks are gadget freaks..they LOVE new stuff...they almost all own hi-def TV AND hd service...yet none even say a word about either format.

Contrast that with the 2-3 year point of SD and almost every friend I knew and some co-workers were VERY excited about SD DVD and asked a bunch of questions...and several took the plunge..many did wait till the early 2000's but it caught on like wild fire.

So why little to no water cooler talk about the formats? Is that a sign that this is indeed a niche product line or will we suddenly see a huge burst of "I gotta have both of those machines ASAP!!" conversations? If so, when?

Thoughts?

Same thing with my circle of friends -- almost no one talks about HDM unless I bring it up. And then it's usually about maybe getting a PS3 -- but current software prices are still an issue.

I think people tend to forget how good SD DVD can be -- take the extended versions of LOTR! Very impressive picture and sound -- plenty good enough for lots of people. This may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of people don't care that you can see individual threads of someone's costume. ;)

Disc based media has competition from cable, OTA, and sat HD broadcasts.

Discs are the most expensive option available to see an HD movie at home, due to high player and software costs. The lack of local rentals hurts the convenience factor, as do the limited release titles available.

Looking at HBO or Showtime HD channels make an upconverted DVD look darn near "HD" quality, so people think they are getting the best available picture without having to venture into one of the HD disc formats.

Even the most ardent HD disc fanboys admit that the move to HD was not a quantum leap in quality over a well mastered DVD. Significant, but not quantum.

The level of improvement, compared with the hardware and software prices make this a poor value for most consumers, compared to other options.

Between local HDTV broadcasts (which are becoming ever more available) and the pay HD channels, most people with an HD set have content available 24/7. The HD disc formats have to compete with this, and are not gaining ground.

Disc based media has competition from cable, OTA, and sat HD broadcasts.

Discs are the most expensive option available to see an HD movie at home, due to high player and software costs. The lack of local rentals hurts the convenience factor, as do the limited release titles available.

Looking at HBO or Showtime HD channels make an upconverted DVD look darn near "HD" quality, so people think they are getting the best available picture without having to venture into one of the HD disc formats.

Even the most ardent HD disc fanboys admit that the move to HD was not a quantum leap in quality over a well mastered DVD. Significant, but not quantum.

The level of improvement, compared with the hardware and software prices make this a poor value for most consumers, compared to other options.

Between local HDTV broadcasts (which are becoming ever more available) and the pay HD channels, most people with an HD set have content available 24/7. The HD disc formats have to compete with this, and are not gaining ground.


+10

now that is strange to me. If they are elctronics geeks and already supposedly 'love' their hdtv and hd programming why/how would they be happy with crappy SD discs?

Because SD discs aren't "crappy"...they are plenty happy with them as are MILLIONS of others right now.

Because SD discs aren't "crappy"...they are plenty happy with them as are MILLIONS of others right now.

And with a good upconverting player and TV, it looks "good enough" to most to not spend the money on a new Hi Def player that plays discs that cost twice as much in most cases.

At Frys, they usually have a upconverted SD movie playing on their 50-60 plasmas and it looks very good. Hard to convince someone to upgrade their equipment when they have demos like this running.

Curious...

Since this "war" has been going on for two years now, how many folks in your circle of friends, family, co-workers etc are talking about HD or Blu? How many say they are gonna run out and buy one?

I hear ZERO..I mean ZERO talk about it in my circle...and many of these folks are gadget freaks..they LOVE new stuff...they almost all own hi-def TV AND hd service...yet none even say a word about either format.

Contrast that with the 2-3 year point of SD and almost every friend I knew and some co-workers were VERY excited about SD DVD and asked a bunch of questions...and several took the plunge..many did wait till the early 2000's but it caught on like wild fire.

So why little to no water cooler talk about the formats? Is that a sign that this is indeed a niche product line or will we suddenly see a huge burst of "I gotta have both of those machines ASAP!!" conversations? If so, when?

Thoughts?
1

Basically just one friend who is a major gamer and doesn't even have a PS3 yet. I've been trying to talk him into an add-on for quite awhile and I think he may be close. He just bought a new Samsung 1080p DLP. He is LOVING his 360 more than ever now!

Right now the BD or Meet the Robinsons is double the price of the DVD. Which do you think people are going to buy?

Meet the Robinsons DVD = $24.99

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFSM2137269&catid=20456

Meet the Robinsons BD = $29.99

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFSM2137271&catid=24101

$24.99 x 2 =/= $29.99

Learn to do math.

Curious...

Since this "war" has been going on for two years now, how many folks in your circle of friends, family, co-workers etc are talking about HD or Blu? How many say they are gonna run out and buy one?

I hear ZERO..I mean ZERO talk about it in my circle...and many of these folks are gadget freaks..they LOVE new stuff...they almost all own hi-def TV AND hd service...yet none even say a word about either format.

Contrast that with the 2-3 year point of SD and almost every friend I knew and some co-workers were VERY excited about SD DVD and asked a bunch of questions...and several took the plunge..many did wait till the early 2000's but it caught on like wild fire.

So why little to no water cooler talk about the formats? Is that a sign that this is indeed a niche product line or will we suddenly see a huge burst of "I gotta have both of those machines ASAP!!" conversations? If so, when?

Thoughts?
most of the peeps in my 'sphere of influence' are still watching legacy 27" crts w $30 wm players. they all have cell phones, ipods, computers, etc, but i only know one person in that 'sphere' who even has an hdtv but w upscaler. and im not talking 'bout low income folks, either. HDplayers/media, whats that?, most of them say.

Meet the Robinsons DVD = $24.99

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFSM2137269&catid=20456

Meet the Robinsons BD = $29.99

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFSM2137271&catid=24101

$24.99 x 2 =/= $29.99

Learn to do math.
And this week they are on sale for $22.99 for Blu-ray and $14.99 on DVD at BB.

Learn to do math.

It is conceivable that he is right.... if you go to a US Best Buy.

The SD DVD is on sale for $14.99 while the MSRP of the Blu-ray version is $34.99. If you look at BB online (in the US) and look at the price of the BD version in your cart, it is $22.49. However, the Best Buy's around me have all the HD discs marked at full MSRP.

So, in the store, it might actually be $14.99 vs. $34.99. Whenever I go to Best Buy (rare these days) I always check BB online because (believe it or not) I have to get them to price match BB online prices! :rolleyes:

Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?

There lies the advantage of the PS3. Even if more expensive (than a cheap HD-DVD player), it's not a flawed product as the HDM playback is a mere by-product.

All of the PS3 comments are amazing to me.

I hear all the time how the PS3 is the best BD player (less issues, etc.). It always seems to be recommended most to new owners (here and on the Blu-ray websites, too).

Hell, on beatboy77's site, 5 out of 6 reviewers use a PS3 (http://hidefpreview.com/about%20us%202.html) as their Blu-ray player for doing reviews. (And I still can't figure out how they got lossless sound from it for their Nature's Journey BD review :rolleyes:).

IMO, as long as the best and cheapest Blu-ray player is a game machine (PS3) Blu-ray is in trouble.

Which, as someone who has not yet taken the HD player plunge, makes me scratch my head as to why Sony would begin offering even more expensive BRD players than the S300. ???

Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?

There lies the advantage of the PS3. Even if more expensive (than a cheap HD-DVD player), it's not a flawed product as the HDM playback is a mere by-product.

Huh? I'm sorry, you lost me. You state "Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?" but then state that the PS3 isn't flawed, even though it doesn't play all movies either. Which you state as a criterion for a non-flawed product. It sounds more that a bit contradictory.

And as far as HDM playback goes, I wouldn't call it a "mere by-product" since Sony touts it often, and many have bought it for that purpose. It's obviously a selling point.

Same thing with my circle of friends -- almost no one talks about HDM unless I bring it up. And then it's usually about maybe getting a PS3 -- but current software prices are still an issue.

I think people tend to forget how good SD DVD can be -- take the extended versions of LOTR! Very impressive picture and sound -- plenty good enough for lots of people. This may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of people don't care that you can see individual threads of someone's costume. ;)

I was thinking the same thing until I got the blu-ray version of 2001: A Space Odyssey on Tuesday. The increase in resolution and overall enjoyment factor were incredible compared to my SD collector's edition.

When all is said and done, I think we can only look out for ourselves. The purist A/V community is only a fraction of the buying public - my father-in-law still watches VHS movies. Prices on hardware and software will always decrease. But what about NOW? I don't want to wait 5 years for the "format war" victor to be declared. I like my blu-ray player and movies, but I also want to see Transformers, Eagles Farewell Concert, etc. which are only available on HD-DVD. Therefore, I am going to buy the Sammy combo player when it becomes available (hopefully) later this year.

Huh? I'm sorry, you lost me. You state "Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?" but then state that the PS3 isn't flawed, even though it doesn't play all movies either. Which you state as a criterion for a non-flawed product. It sounds more that a bit contradictory.

And as far as HDM playback goes, I wouldn't call it a "mere by-product" since Sony touts it often, and many have bought it for that purpose. It's obviously a selling point.

from my original post: (the PS3) it's not a flawed product as the HDM playback is a mere by-product.

And yes, IMO every stand-alone HDM player is flawed, as in I'd never buy one.

Well, most of my friends own HDTVs and are interested in HD media players but haven't wanted to commit $300-$600 on a player when the risk of it being made obsolete by the format war still loomed.

So price is definitely a factor.

I guess we will have to wait a few weeks and see what effect the $198 A2s from Wal*mart have on the market.

from my original post: (the PS3)

And yes, IMO every stand-alone HDM player is flawed, as in I'd never buy one.

I got that part. The point is that the PS3's HDM playback isn't a "mere byproduct" since many if not all Blu-Ray disk stickers specifically mention the fact that they are playable on the PS3. Many Sony announcements mention the fact that the PS3 also plays Blu-Ray disks. Not to mention that the Blu-Ray drive is built into the system, you can't separate the two. I'd consider all these factors pointing to Sony considering the HDM playback to be a significant feature of the PS3, and rightfully so.

So again, I fail to see how the PS3 is somehow exempt from your blanket condemnation of SA players. Yes, it does more than just play movies, but to pretend as though it's a "mere byproduct" strikes me as a bit stretching.

yep, and the close minded elitists on avs won't ever realize that. what people don't understand is that average consumer sees both blu-ray and hd dvd as nothing more than fancy dvd players. they don't care about lossless audio, they dont care about 1080p/24, they don't care about ime. dvd's are cheap, they're everywhere, and their $20 cyberhome player will play it just find on their new 50" set. No need to spend $300 on a new dvd player just to watch movies on. I'll never buy a dvd again, and i have a 120" screen and can get lossless audio on my setup, but im not stupid enough to think that everyone is the same way, or that everyone cares about lossless audio, 1080p, or increased bandwidth.
I'm with you. I hate standard DVD because I have a large screen and can clearly see the difference. But I think it's more than not caring, for some people high def makes zero sense. They have some plastic speakers, if they have surround sound at all, and a 32" widescreen LCD. Sitting 7 ft back, you're not going to see any difference.

Only when 40" TV's and larger become more common will a high def format really take off.

I got that part. The point is that the PS3's HDM playback isn't a "mere byproduct" since many if not all Blu-Ray disk stickers specifically mention the fact that they are playable on the PS3. Many Sony announcements mention the fact that the PS3 also plays Blu-Ray disks. Not to mention that the Blu-Ray drive is built into the system, you can't separate the two. I'd consider all these factors pointing to Sony considering the HDM playback to be a significant feature of the PS3, and rightfully so.

So again, I fail to see how the PS3 is somehow exempt from your blanket condemnation of SA players. Yes, it does more than just play movies, but to pretend as though it's a "mere byproduct" strikes me as a bit stretching.

Why whould I want to, if the extra storage space of the blu-ray can be used for gaming?

The primary function of the PS3 is to play games. A secondary function is to (or can be to) play HDM, blu-ray specifically. HD-DVD supporters would mention the "dismal" attatch rate of the PS3 which just proves my point 9most people don't really care about blu-ray).

I can only speak for myself, I'd never buy a stand-alone HDM player unless it can play all movies, regardless of price. However, I own a PS3. Did I buy into HDM? Hell no!

I don't buy media, but I rent blu-ray discs when available. So I'm quite content watching blu-rays, and blu-ray playback is a quite convenient by-product to me (and spouse).

$198 as a low price in a Walmart store is analogous to a $400 price in a Best Buy store (demographically speaking)...As the above rack looks untouched, I don't see Walmart moving a lot of any product at $198....particularly with no ability to rent locally and $25 to $40 per disc. That is a lot of dough to the average Walmart shopper..

you crack me up.

Instead of the free movies maybe they'll include a free bowl of soup and winter jacket for all the peasants shopping at walmart.

I think people tend to forget how good SD DVD can be -- take the extended versions of LOTR! Very impressive picture and sound -- plenty good enough for lots of people. This may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of people don't care that you can see individual threads of someone's costume. ;)

It looks good until you see the HD version. And I think you are shortchanging HD in your thread statement.

Huh? I'm sorry, you lost me. You state "Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?" but then state that the PS3 isn't flawed, even though it doesn't play all movies either. Which you state as a criterion for a non-flawed product. It sounds more that a bit contradictory.

And as far as HDM playback goes, I wouldn't call it a "mere by-product" since Sony touts it often, and many have bought it for that purpose. It's obviously a selling point.

What he's trying to say is that if BluRay fails, the PS3 is still a viable gaming system. What he fails to mention is that if HD DVD fails, the HD A2 is still a great upconvering DVD player.

Why whould I want to, if the extra storage space of the blu-ray can be used for gaming?

I didn't say you wanted to, I said that you can't separate the two. The BR drive is necessary for the system.

The primary function of the PS3 is to play games. A secondary function is to (or can be to) play HDM, blu-ray specifically.

Yes and no. Some people have bought the PS3 to only play BRDs, they don't game. So for them, that is indeed the primary function. Now, that's not the majority of purchases, but it does exist. And again, Sony has heavily pushed the Blu-Ray disk playing features at times. So to me that makes it more than a "mere byproduct" as you've claimed.

I can only speak for myself, I'd never buy a stand-alone HDM player unless it can play all movies, regardless of price. However, I own a PS3. Did I buy into HDM? Hell no!

See, I would say that you did, whether intentionally or not. Even if you don't use Blu-Ray movies on it at all (and you already do since you rent them) then you still own a Blu-Ray player, even if it does more than just play movies.

What he's trying to say is that if BluRay fails, the PS3 is still a viable gaming system. What he fails to mention is that if HD DVD fails, the HD A2 is still a great upconvering DVD player.

Fair enough, good point, but so does the PS3 (with more processing power available to use more demanding argorithms) and most other decent DVD players in the market (such as my Toshiba S-97?).

See, I would say that you did, whether intentionally or not. Even if you don't use Blu-Ray movies on it at all (and you already do since you rent them) then you still own a Blu-Ray player, even if it does more than just play movies.

Agree and that's Sony advantage in this "war." But why do I care? I don't care about sony (no love/hate here). Actually the PS3 is the only Sony device I own (and I like it). Have a samsung TV and an yamaha receiver. In fact, if the xbox 360 didn't have so many problems I'd own one, as it is closer to PC gaming (which I prefer).

BTW, if I don't buy HDM media, I don't matter to nielsen numbers. ;) Which also means I'd care very little if Blu-ray loses.

I still think the real thing holding people back isn't the player prices, it's the media prices.

According to this Sony Ad, the primary function of the Playstation 3 is Blu-Ray movie playback. Games are a secondary function.

http://blog.zszaiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/sonybluray.jpg

According to this Sony Ad, the primary function of the Playstation 3 is Blu-Ray movie playback. Games are a secondary function.

http://blog.zszaiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/sonybluray.jpg

That isn't an official Sony Ad, but thanks for playing.

It looks good until you see the HD version. And I think you are shortchanging HD in your thread statement.

Fair enough. Though I disagree -- DVDs still look good to me. HD Media just looks a lot better. Much better.

I don't think I'm short-changing HD, however. Personally, I love it and find it worth it. My point is that there are lots of people who don't care about the extra resolution.

I still think the real thing holding people back isn't the player prices, it's the media prices.
And HDM movie selections being split.

If I buy this player, I can get Bourne, Shrek and Transformers but then I can't get the Disney movies my kids or Spiderman, POTC to watch or vise versa. They usually say screw it and stick to their SD DVD's.

Fair enough. Though I disagree -- DVDs still look good to me. HD Media just looks a lot better. Much better.

I don't think I'm short-changing HD, however. Personally, I love it and find it worth it. My point is that there are lots of people who don't care about the extra resolution.
A good demo would be to show Transformers on HD DVD and the SD version upconverted(not composite) to 720p/1080i and most will see the PQ difference isn't really night and day but subtle.
Of course, no CE store will do this as then no one would buy the Hi Def players and settle for "good enough" $40 upconvert.

you crack me up.

Instead of the free movies maybe they'll include a free bowl of soup and winter jacket for all the peasants shopping at walmart.

And when they are done shopping at Wal*mart, they can go deposit their pennies at the Medieval Capital One bank next door.

"FREE FLOGGING with Deposit!"

:D

It is conceivable that he is right.... if you go to a US Best Buy.

The SD DVD is on sale for $14.99 while the MSRP of the Blu-ray version is $34.99. If you look at BB online (in the US) and look at the price of the BD version in your cart, it is $22.49. However, the Best Buy's around me have all the HD discs marked at full MSRP.

So, in the store, it might actually be $14.99 vs. $34.99. Whenever I go to Best Buy (rare these days) I always check BB online because (believe it or not) I have to get them to price match BB online prices! :rolleyes:


I went in to Best Buy yesterday, hoping to use a 20% off coupon I had after seeeing a $29.99 online price for this item on their website. In-store, the price was marked at $29.99. To my surprise, the item scanned at $22.49 and came to under $18 after the coupon. That was nearly half-off list and less than the retail price of the SD DVD.

I'm a firm believer that price is the #1 reason why the average consumer has not adopted HD...today I went to Best Buy (East Colonial dr, Orlando FL) to buy the add-on 360 HD DVD for a gift in which it would have included Heroes HD DVD 1 season but the sales guy said it sold out very fast...I asked if I could still buy it to pick up on another day, but he said no and that they were receiving more later in the day...and again, price and value are the key.

It's a photo. It doesn't change. They may have stocked it five minutes before and it may have been empty five minutes after the photo was taken. We don't know. Photos are weird like that.

Some people don't get it, Slim. They are here for FUD all day long.

These forums are just unreadable.

Think before you post. The best posts are the ones you don't make....

Isn't a player that only plays half of the movies a flawed product, regardless of price?

There lies the advantage of the PS3. Even if more expensive (than a cheap HD-DVD player), it's not a flawed product as the HDM playback is a mere by-product.

Well, isn't a game machine that only plays 1/2 the games out there a flawed product then too? Afterall, you can't play Halo 3 or Super Smash Bros. on a PS3., right?

Sounds like Mac's are flawed too because they can't run Windows natively.

And as for the players, that does not make it a flawed product. If the player couldn't play the media designed for it, then it's a flawed product. The fact that studios can make media FOR a player doesn't make the player flawed because the media wasn't there before.

That isn't an official Sony Ad, but thanks for playing.

At least it is more accurate than official Sony Ad's

I'm a firm believer that price is the #1 reason why the average consumer has not adopted HD...today I went to Best Buy (East Colonial dr, Orlando FL) to buy the add-on 360 HD DVD for a gift in which it would have included Heroes HD DVD 1 season but the sales guy said it sold out very fast...I asked if I could still buy it to pick up on another day, but he said no and that they were receiving more later in the day...and again, price and value are the key.
You're right, but there's something you left out. A high price becomes even more of a barrier if you think that there is a chance your hard-earned HD hardware AND software cash might go down the drain when your chosen format dies.

I zip into Wal Mart now and then, and my income is vastly higher than 16k.

If I see a 200 dollar player I'll pick it up on impulse. In fact, around here most will.

Wal Mart tailors the stores for the local demographic, so the local store near here has a huge toy section, an enormous garden section, a very large halloween section and five feet dedicated to HDM in a very large CE section.

I'm with you. I hate standard DVD because I have a large screen and can clearly see the difference. But I think it's more than not caring, for some people high def makes zero sense. They have some plastic speakers, if they have surround sound at all, and a 32" widescreen LCD. Sitting 7 ft back, you're not going to see any difference.

Only when 40" TV's and larger become more common will a high def format really take off.

i dont even think that'll even do it. i know a few ppl with 50" screens that still are perfectly happy w/ stretched 4:3 sdtv. granted the ppl im referring to are older in their late 40s-50s, but its still true. the only way i can see hd movies beating dvd is to get rid of dvd totally, or have hd movies prices the same or at a very very small premium. 300 for $35 isnt going to appeal to mass market when the dvd is sitting one row over for $19.99.

i dont even think that'll even do it. i know a few ppl with 50" screens that still are perfectly happy w/ stretched 4:3 sdtv. granted the ppl im referring to are older in their late 40s-50s, but its still true. the only way i can see hd movies beating dvd is to get rid of dvd totally, or have hd movies prices the same or at a very very small premium. 300 for $35 isnt going to appeal to mass market when the dvd is sitting one row over for $19.99.
Does no one RENT???!!!

I think it's mainly hardware prices and the war that's holding us up.

Does no one RENT???!!!

I think it's mainly hardware prices and the war that's holding us up.


Not me so much anymore. My wife and I used to rent 2-3 movies a week. With the HD movies on our PVR and excellent deals on DVDs I went to buying over renting several years ago. Heck, even "new" movies become $10 within weeks as our local "mom and pop" video store always has any 3 DVDs for $30 (and sometimes less). Why pay closer to $5 to rent the title when I can just buy it instead? Other titles I am not as sure about we just wait to come on the movie channels on the satellite. If I end up liking the movie enough I add it to my "wish list" and keep an eye on it at the pawn shops, used music/video stores I check out and pick it up when I see a pristine used copy at the right price.

I will own/collect HDM and not rent. When the titles are regularly under $20 I will start to jump in. Lots of great DVDs for sale with 3 or 5 discs for $25 with lots of great titles in the mix. DVDs have really turned people into "owners" instead of renters. When HDM gets into that under $20 pricing sales are going to really take off; expecially when DVD levels of pricing come around.

When DVDs were $25-$35 I bought very few and only the ones I really "had to have". Spinal Tap, Dawn Of The Dead etc were my early purchases along with some 80s action and comedy flicks that meant something to me as I was a teenager in the 1980s. Once the friendlier pricing came along I went kind of nuts. Several hundred DVDs later and I am one happy camper. I will happily replace many of these titles in HDM once the pricing is right. Even at today's pricing there are lots of movies like 2001, Dr. Strangelove etc that I would "have" to have in the best possible format.

HDM doesn't have the pricing that I want yet. I can wait...

Well, isn't a game machine that only plays 1/2 the games out there a flawed product then too? Afterall, you can't play Halo 3 or Super Smash Bros. on a PS3., right?

Sounds like Mac's are flawed too because they can't run Windows natively.

And as for the players, that does not make it a flawed product. If the player couldn't play the media designed for it, then it's a flawed product. The fact that studios can make media FOR a player doesn't make the player flawed because the media wasn't there before.

It's an analogy, but not a proper one. The difference between software and the format where data is stored is enormous. Basically, porting from different architectures can be a huge effort that cost a lot of money. Actually software, games, are optimized to their target platform and it is very difficult to produce a "perfect" port. Movies are just data, the logic involved (even considering the formats) is very small and simple. Besides, as we all know here movies' target platform is the theater.

Hold on a sec... so you are saying that HDM should be like the video game industry?! That everyone should buy two players to be able to have access to all content? I mean that's what you wrote or at least implied.

If that's the case, again, good luck with the mass adoption. :rolleyes: Then, DVD is clearly the superior product and people will never switch.

You know, the context of this thread was mass adoption (or the lack thereof).
Do people here really believe everyone will start buying 2 players to join HDM?

A good demo would be to show Transformers on HD DVD and the SD version upconverted(not composite) to 720p/1080i and most will see the PQ difference isn't really night and day but subtle.
Of course, no CE store will do this as then no one would buy the Hi Def players and settle for "good enough" $40 upconvert.


But you are using an exceptionally good looking SD disc in that instance. There are countless titles that blow away their SD counterparts.
Also, that $40 upconvert will not look nearly as good as say an Oppo or high end other brand upconvert - ime. So the difference from a $40 to a HD player would be rather significant.
-jmo

Well, isn't a game machine that only plays 1/2 the games out there a flawed product then too? Afterall, you can't play Halo 3 or Super Smash Bros. on a PS3., right?

Sounds like Mac's are flawed too because they can't run Windows natively.

And as for the players, that does not make it a flawed product. If the player couldn't play the media designed for it, then it's a flawed product. The fact that studios can make media FOR a player doesn't make the player flawed because the media wasn't there before.

Actually, Macs CAN run Windows natively -- so, you might say that PCs are flawed because they can't run Mac OS X. Just FYI.

But you are using an exceptionally good looking SD disc in that instance. There are countless titles that blow away their SD counterparts.
Also, that $40 upconvert will not look nearly as good as say an Oppo or high end other brand upconvert - ime. So the difference from a $40 to a HD player would be rather significant.
-jmo
Well, I've never seen what those $40 unconvert players can do but at Frys they were playing one of the Bourne movies on a ($59)Philips upconvert on a 42" LCD and it looked pretty damn good or at least "good enough" to look as good as HD to convince the average consumer that a upconvert works very well.

It's an analogy, but not a proper one. The difference between software and the format where data is stored is enormous. Basically, porting from different architectures can be a huge effort that cost a lot of money. Actually software, games, are optimized to their target platform and it is very difficult to produce a "perfect" port. Movies are just data, the logic involved (even considering the formats) is very small and simple. Besides, as we all know here movies' target platform is the theater.

What does this have to do with the debate unless you are agreeing with me that players then aren't flawed because some don't make software for it.

Hold on a sec... so you are saying that HDM should be like the video game industry?! That everyone should buy two players to be able to have access to all content? I mean that's what you wrote or at least implied.

I'm not saying that at all. I've long said all studios should be neutral and let the consumer buy the player they want at the price they want. But what I AM saying is that the way things are right now, that is exactly what you have to do. And it's the same way the game industry is right now. So it's not as though there is no prescident for this.

If that's the case, again, good luck with the mass adoption. :rolleyes: Then, DVD is clearly the superior product and people will never switch.

Mass adoption is price based. Exhibit A: The Nintendo Wii.

What about the iPod? iPhone? PS2 v. GameCube?

More importantly, the Wii has some features that make it more fun to play for average people -- and Nintendo purposefully kept supply low to create a perception of incredible demand.

The point is, price alone is rarely enough to make something a mass market product.

What does this have to do with the debate unless you are agreeing with me that players then aren't flawed because some don't make software for it.



I'm not saying that at all. I've long said all studios should be neutral and let the consumer buy the player they want at the price they want. But what I AM saying is that the way things are right now, that is exactly what you have to do. And it's the same way the game industry is right now. So it's not as though there is no prescident for this.



Mass adoption is price based. Exhibit A: The Nintendo Wii.

owned...

Another issue is availability.. no one is going to invest in a format that doesn't play all the movies from each studio. I want 100% support, not 60, 70, or 90... but 100%

I don't want to go to a freaking store to buy a movie, and think to myself.. "does this play in my blu ray player"?

Another issue is availability.. no one is going to invest in a format that doesn't play all the movies from each studio. I want 100% support, not 60, 70, or 90... but 100%

I don't want to go to a freaking store to buy a movie, and think to myself.. "does this play in my blu ray player"?

Very, very true.

What about the iPod? iPhone? PS2 v. GameCube?

More importantly, the Wii has some features that make it more fun to play for average people -- and Nintendo purposefully kept supply low to create a perception of incredible demand.

The point is, price alone is rarely enough to make something a mass market product.

The Wii is $250. It was at launch $50 cheaper than the least expensive Xbox 360. If the Wii was $299 or higher, no amount of fun to play features or "perceived demand" would have given the Wii the sales that it has. Price drove the Wii.

As for the PS2 and Gamecube, the PS2 was coming off a very successful Playstation 1. The GameCube was coming off of a very mediocre Nintendo 64. And the price was not the same jump from $199 to $299 as the Wii and PS3 is with $249 to /$499-$599.


As for the iPhone, it has no competition. Unless you want to consider something like Verizon and it's V-Cast as competition and then Motorola slaughters Apple in sales of Razor phones to iPhones. But for techies, the iPhone has no competition at a lower price to go up against.

I don't want to go to a freaking store to buy a movie, and think to myself.. "does this play in my blu ray player"?

even as color blind as i am, i can tell the difference between a red case and a blue case... ;)

michael, i disagree on the wii... even at 299, i think it would sell like hotcakes... the wii appeals to a market segment that the other consoles don't...

You really think that without the Wii's innovative controller and games, it would have sold as well as it did? Really?

Ah, so then you're admitting that price alone isn't enough to drive sales, with your Gamecube and PS2 counter-example. Success of previous systems can change the dynamic.

The iPhone has no competition? Wow, that must be amazing for Apple! (And I'm sure LG, Motorola, Treo, etc... would wish that were true too)

So no counter-example against the iPod?

The Wii is $250. It was at launch $50 cheaper than the least expensive Xbox 360. If the Wii was $299 or higher, no amount of fun to play features or "perceived demand" would have given the Wii the sales that it has. Price drove the Wii.

As for the PS2 and Gamecube, the PS2 was coming off a very successful Playstation 1. The GameCube was coming off of a very mediocre Nintendo 64. And the price was not the same jump from $199 to $299 as the Wii and PS3 is with $249 to /$499-$599.


As for the iPhone, it has no competition. Unless you want to consider something like Verizon and it's V-Cast as competition and then Motorola slaughters Apple in sales of Razor phones to iPhones. But for techies, the iPhone has no competition at a lower price to go up against.

Another issue is availability.. no one is going to invest in a format that doesn't play all the movies from each studio. I want 100% support, not 60, 70, or 90... but 100%

I don't want to go to a freaking store to buy a movie, and think to myself.. "does this play in my blu ray player"?

Be prepared for a very long wait since this format war could last for years.

I think, in all honesty, the biggest issues that are going on right now are perceived ease of use and cost.

The change from VHS to DVD had very little to do with pq or aq. It had to do with:

No more rewinding
dvd's taking up less space
no more wait for movies to go through the rental process before being buyable
easy navigation options
last longer
more content in one place


Dvd's could have had the same exact pq as VHS and they still would have taken over the market because they made movie viewing easier for the general public

Hidef adds very little ease of use to the dvd model for the average consumer. In fact, it adds in some things that make the process more difficult such as firmware upgrades and such.

A good demo would be to show Transformers on HD DVD and the SD version upconverted(not composite) to 720p/1080i and most will see the PQ difference isn't really night and day but subtle.
Of course, no CE store will do this as then no one would buy the Hi Def players and settle for "good enough" $40 upconvert.

I can sit back 10 feet and still see night and day on a 42".

Surprisingly I went to Future Shop on the weekend and they were showing Transformers using a SD disc (why I don't know) on a 60" pioneer plasma and it looked like crap. Crap to the point I wouldn't have bought the TV thinking the picture was garbage. Especially after I saw the true picture at home on my little set.

Night and day with Transformers is easy. Now night and day with say.. top gun? Different story.

Does no one RENT???!!!

I think it's mainly hardware prices and the war that's holding us up.

thats true, but a lot of people do buy...a whole lot. look at the dvd numbers. tranformers did 8.3 mil in a week on dvd, i dont know if it broke any dvd records, but dammit thats a lot of movies. i used to rent exclusively until i gotta pj. now i still rent, but ive been buying movies a whole lot more than i ever did. im actually excited about building my collection.

player sales are a big barrier tho, even at 200, its a hard sell for the avg person considering its "just a dvd player"

What about the iPod? iPhone? PS2 v. GameCube?

More importantly, the Wii has some features that make it more fun to play for average people -- and Nintendo purposefully kept supply low to create a perception of incredible demand.

The point is, price alone is rarely enough to make something a mass market product.
You mean the same iPhone that got a huge price drop almost right away? The same iPhone that is likely to get it's arse kicked by the new LG line.....because it's *cough* cheaper *cough*

Link proving limited supplies? Yeah, didn't think so - caught by suprise more likely....but if it makes you feel better.

Price has always been the barrier - when did the iPod really take off? Oh damn, that's right with the introduction of the more affordable lines. Same as DVD which went nowhere until the prices dropped under $200.

In this case under $200 player are nice...but it's still viewed as "just a DVD player" = may not sell. Over $20 media = no sale for avg consumers. And a big kicker - who's paying a premium for movies that play in ONE of the 7 players in the house? Answer = nobody, the avg consumer will pick up the DVD everytime.

The Iphone initially sold well off of the fad factor alone. It was viewed as a status symbol but inlike the ipod, which brought a lot to the table, I don't think it's going to have long term success.

In all honesty, I think the same thing's going to happen to the Wii. Recently, a poll showed that 70% of the people who own the Wii don't even play it at this point. I forget what firm did the study but I originally read about it on Joystiq.com. It just shows that price plus the factor of "the in crowd" is a very strong thing.

Another issue is availability.. no one is going to invest in a format that doesn't play all the movies from each studio. I want 100% support, not 60, 70, or 90... but 100%

I don't want to go to a freaking store to buy a movie, and think to myself.. "does this play in my blu ray player"?

But, for the paltry sum of $200 bucks you can just go to the store and BUY whatever HD title you want regardless of format. I just dont get the resistance to supporting both, especially when you've already taken the expensive Blu pill. I am neutral and between rentals and owned titles, I wont have to suffer through anymore SD nonsense pretty much ever again.

Even if HD DVD croaks completely, you have a great upscaling player for SD discs and you can still play the HD collection you end up with. Same for BD should that perish.

I mean....WTF guys???? :confused:

While I obviously don't want to get into a bickering war over the iPhone, I respectfully disagree. First, it sold pretty damn well at the highest price -- and is still selling well at $400!

I saw a chart the other day, describing the satisfaction rating of iPhone owners with their phones versus other phone companies: 82% satisfaction versus 44% for LG. So yeah, Good luck LG! :D

Well, obviously Wii had limited Supplies -- Nintendo says it wasn't on purpose and they are trying to make as many as possible. I'm willing to believe them.

iPods were selling well before the mini, for instance -- but of course they sold better when they were cheaper. Duh. Good products sell better when cheaper (Hello BOGO!)

DVDs would not have been nearly as popular if all the studios didn't support them. Fact.

That last paragraph I agree with completely. :D

You mean the same iPhone that got a huge price drop almost right away? The same iPhone that is likely to get it's arse kicked by the new LG line.....because it's *cough* cheaper *cough*

Link proving limited supplies? Yeah, didn't think so - caught by suprise more likely....but if it makes you feel better.

Price has always been the barrier - when did the iPod really take off? Oh damn, that's right with the introduction of the more affordable lines. Same as DVD which went nowhere until the prices dropped under $200.

In this case under $200 player are nice...but it's still viewed as "just a DVD player" = may not sell. Over $20 media = no sale for avg consumers. And a big kicker - who's paying a premium for movies that play in ONE of the 7 players in the house? Answer = nobody, the avg consumer will pick up the DVD everytime.