Enough with the retarded polls. It seems as if people can't even compose a thought anymore without asking their "crew" to jump in and support. Then the other team feels threatended, gets in there and you get the picture.

Same with the over analysis of PR smothered headlines. If was in PR for either team, I'd spice up each release to the max, and then come on here to watch the show.

Would it be too hard to let there be a "bickering" section that would remain hidden unless users wanted to participate in it? They could enable it via Control Panels and go at it. Then run the rest of the Hi Def areas with an iron fist. Start baning left and right. They'll either remain in the bickering section, off the forum or in hiding. All 3 being a great benefit to the general forum population.

It's been how long since we've had one thread in this section not degrade into petty bickering. Hell, we can't even rationally discuss sales for the fear of what's going to happen in under 10 posts!

Alas, I have a feeling that this thread will be ignored as it's not in the form of a poll or a sensationalized headline :(

you have my vote... fwiw...

Isn't it sad that the two formats have drug down so many HT forums....I think the last two years have had the most hateful postings (name calling, finger pointing, etc) ever.

Can't wait until we can all own one format and just talk about how great movie A or B is.......ok well, they will bicker about why one movie sucks over the other, but hey, that has ALWAYS been around...we can deal with that.

:)

It works on Gamespot.com with the "System Wars" board, so why not here?

Yes please, let all the trolls just troll each other then.

I agree, I hate having to page though several posts before (if lucky) getting back on topic.

My vote too! Great idea.

The entire "HDTV Software Media Discussion" forum is a bickering section as far as I'm concerned. 90% of threads in here contain little more than name-calling, selective quoting, half-baked theories, and wild speculation with little or no factual basis. The only reason I continue to come around these parts is to read up on the latest news (ok, and maybe just a little bit for the show).

Meh, I can see why it the bickering bugs you, but it's pretty much why 80% are here. I think there isn't going to be much more than six more months of this anyway.

IMO one of three things are poised to happen.

Studios pick a winner for us, Warner most likely.
or
CEMs start announcing dual players right and left, since they can or no longer nor want to compete with Sony's undercuts.
or
Things keep inching along with too little growth to sustain studio's interests, and the bitter pill of that reality makes people realize they're just two red and blue skeletons fighting over the body of a dead man.

either way the wind is already begun blowing out of may peoples sails.

Sounds good to me. Or just make this subforum that area. It would be difficult to keep any neutral HDM section troll free since there will alway be bickering over sales, PQ, AQ etc. no matter where it is.

Meh, I can see why it the bickering bugs you, but it's pretty much why 80% are here. I think there isn't going to be much more than six more months of this anyway.

IMO one of three things are poised to happen.

Studios pick a winner for us, Warner most likely.
or
CEMs start announcing dual players right and left, since they can or no longer nor want to compete with Sony's undercuts.
or
Things keep inching along with too little growth to sustain studio's interests, and the bitter pill of that reality makes people realize they're just two red and blue skeletons fighting over the body of a dead man.

either way the wind is already begun blowing out of may peoples sails.

You don't know how right you are. Reading the crap here (HDM Section)is enough to turn enyone away from HDM :(

I don't mind this forum. The bansticks and actual modding should be done on the Blu-ray and HD DVD specific forums. Non neutral HD DVD and Blu-ray folk should stop posting in the opposing forums. And even though "neutral-but-heavy-leaning" people need to back off. There should be a complete ban on bashing in those forums.

Let this be the war forum. And let's let the format specific forums get back to what they were intended for.

We had this threads like this before. Wait, isn't it how this sub forum was created?

Hey there are plenty of other good informative forums out there to get good information. This section is mainly good entertainment in my book like reality TV. I enjoy hidef movies and am not worried that somehow the arm chair quarterbacking and cheerleading that goes on in these forums really matters in the grand scheme of things. I was at first annoyed but now find myself strangely amused. So game on....

This section is mainly good entertainment in my book like reality TV.

I think it's more like a train wreck. There have been times when I have sworn that I'm not going to waste another second of my life reading about "blue this" or "red that" -- and then I just keep coming back, like the masochist that I am.

That said, I'm all for the separate forum. As (secretly) entertaining as I find some of the utter crap in this section, I'd rather that AVS revert to something more useful than titillating.

I think it's more like a train wreck. There have been times when I have sworn that I'm not going to waste another second of my life reading about "blue this" or "red that" -- and then I just keep coming back, like the masochist that I am.

That said, I'm all for the separate forum. As (secretly) entertaining as I find some of the utter crap in this section, I'd rather that AVS revert to something more useful than titillating.

Ah but you keep coming back for more... There are other good solid parts like theater construction, setting up a 2.35 projection, speaker placement and tons and tons of ideas from other users theaters. This is just one little slice of purgatory.

Hey there are plenty of other good informative forums out there to get good information. This section is mainly good entertainment in my book like reality TV. I enjoy hidef movies and am not worried that somehow the arm chair quarterbacking and cheerleading that goes on in these forums really matters in the grand scheme of things. I was at first annoyed but now find myself strangely amused. So game on....

can you name some? the only other forum i know of is highdefdigest, and they really arent much better. i mean you can't even ask a question w/o getting gang raped by these guys. i asked a question about the dvd forum and blu-ray and in the 1st post i was called a troll and a fanboy. i have both, and ive been called a hd dvd fanboy just as much as ive been called a blu-ray fanboy. i tend not to post on avs anymore at all because of it, and i defintely dont recommend this site anymore to anyone.

I agree with the OP, we need a sancturary to talk about HDM without having to turn it into name calling fest. I just want to know what's going on, I'm not interested in hearing whiners on both sides claim victory every week.

Once one format wins life can go back to normal for a lot of us on AVS.

-Splints

I agree , I also believe that when and if there is 1 format, we will all be sorry theres only 1. i also don't think you will be able to stop the constant bickering as sad as that sounds. I read some of these threads and there is a lot of headline misinformation and hatred toward each other...i have got involved a couple of times and now I read a thread and want to respond to it and realize it will be the same old argument over and over again....

I agree , I also believe that when and if there is 1 format, we will all be sorry theres only 1.

why? by the time that happens, if ever, the prices should have normalized and player prices should be in the dvd player price range.

+1 from me. I came here from other forums because of the high level of activity, but that activity has come with a very hefty price.

How about a dual format OWNERS forum? Surely there, there would be a little less fanboyism and nastyness? And I tend to find that dual format supporters tend to be less aggressive and perhaps even more diplomatic in their posting...

This is a little tricky, but bear with me, because this section of AVS makes the videogame wars look like a formal dinner party.

When you see a post that spreads lies, FUD, already disproven "facts" etc, you have to realize that 95% of the time you are dealing with a fanboy. Fanboys don't want to be educated, they don't want to learn. They only want to ignore things that don't support their position, or their chosen format. No amount of arguing or pointing them to facts will change their mind because they've already spent a few hundred dollars and made their choice and the gods be damned if anything you say will change your mind.

I am not talking about people who post things contrary to your opinion. I am talking about people who say things like "Blu-Ray has better PQ!" or are still going off endlessly about the supposed Paramount payoff.

Alternatively you may be dealing with a troll, who only posts things to get you all riled up, and then they sit back and point and laugh at you all while you post the same crap over and over and over again. They may be doing more than pointing and laughing, but I won't get into the disgusting details...let's just say it's a cheap version of pornography. Frankly, I don't want to be a part of some troll's sick fantasy, not knowing what they're doing sitting in front of their monitor reading my reply to their troll post. Makes me feel dirty just thinking about it.

Once your realize you are dealing with one of these people:

Click on Poster's Name
Click "View Public Profile"
Click on "Add [username] to Your Ignore List


It will make your life here at AVS much more bearable. Granted, about 80% of the posts will be ignored, but it makes finding useful information easier. I only come here because once in a great while there's actually some worthwhile news posted.

I dunno.... it almost sounds like it might make the forum pretty sterile if it went too far. I mean, is every post going to be an emotionless, technical rant which gets responded to by another robot-like technical rant? That is soooooo booooring and unless you needed info regarding that exact topic you'd have little reason to read any posts. Heres an example:

Poster(simulate robot voice): "How many bits does your Blu-ray unit process?"
Responder(another robot voice): 'Exactly 1,345,677 bits per swath of disc material"
Poster(robot again): "Thankyou for an enjoyable response"

Thread Ends.

I used to get all "into" it and I myself have some "chicken sh!t" fanboy posts out there but in the grand scheme of things, whats the big deal? Dont read the threads if they dont interest you. I understand that things get off track but I would rather that be policed better as opposed to creating a subforum just for whining.

My 2 cents....

My vote also. The "My dogs better than your dog" b.s. is becoming a real bore.

I am not talking about people who post things contrary to your opinion. I am talking about people who say things like "Blu-Ray has better PQ!" or are still going off endlessly about the supposed Paramount payoff.

Very clever, a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's the equivalent of saying:

"I'm not talking about people who post things contrary to your opinion. I'm talking about people who say things like 'HD-DVD still has a chance to win!' or 'it doesn't matter whether you can fit lossless audio onto the disk.'"

this thread should've been a poll. :D

I think more moderation is needed overall. Too many posts/pages of arguing in some threads that have absolutely nothing to do with the OP are allowed.

Very clever, a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's the equivalent of saying:

"I'm not talking about people who post things contrary to your opinion. I'm talking about people who say things like 'HD-DVD still has a chance to win!' or 'it doesn't matter whether you can fit lossless audio onto the disk.'"

for those who don't understand how the bickering bleeds into every other topic, this post is a PERFECT example of the issue at hand...

someone was making a point and used an example (innocuously)...

oops... someone else decided that "hey, he's posting an 'attack' on blue/red, i'd better make sure i follow up with something that counters their 'attack' on my preferred color"...

it borders on ridiculous after awhile... no, it doesn't just border on it, it IS ridiculous...

I was banned at blu ray .co today for saying that the gloating and arguing is pointless and a year from now they'll be arguing about the same things.I'm format neutral, just enjoy the movies.;)

I agree with the OP. It seems the bickering has grown even worse in the last few months. My conclusion is that some of the most frequent "fanboy" posters are actually PAID (directly or indirectly) bloggers used to support the PR campaigns of the two formats. If correct, the AVS forum sponsors and the average user/participant are being dupped into contributing to the "advertising" effort.

I submit to you example #1. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=928506

It started out fine then 8 post in and..whammo!

..and #2 just began. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=928714

This place went from Scientist to Salesperson in the blink of an eye. :sad:

for those who don't understand how the bickering bleeds into every other topic, this post is a PERFECT example of the issue at hand...

someone was making a point and used an example (innocuously)...

oops... someone else decided that "hey, he's posting an 'attack' on blue/red, i'd better make sure i follow up with something that counters their 'attack' on my preferred color"...

it borders on ridiculous after awhile... no, it doesn't just border on it, it IS ridiculous...

Look, I really couldn't care who wins the format war, as long as it's over sometime soon. I have both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players. I was just pointing out that the example he used was very obviously not innocuous and was meant to inflame.

Whether Blu-ray has better PQ blah blah blah is a topic for another thread, but bringing that up as an example of "fan boyism" obviously reeks of an agenda.

That's how these flame wars start, with somebody "innocently" presenting as fact or as common knowledge a highly biased view, then everybody piles on and it begins. Both sides do it. And typically the true catalyst is the original post, not one of the replies. It takes two to tango, and we should recognize that it is just as important to keep people from making inflammatory statements as it is to prevent people from replying with overly-harsh criticisms.

By the way, I think you misread my post anyway. I was in no way giving credence to my last paragraph. Rather, I was using that as an illustration of a ridiculous claim that the "other side" might make. It wasn't a "counter" in the sense that it should be taken seriously.

It is impossible not to have bickering in this forum. This is due to the fact that people are not interested in sharing ideas as they are in all the other forums.

Look, I really couldn't care who wins the format war, as long as it's over sometime soon. I have both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players. I was just pointing out that the example he used was very obviously not innocuous and was meant to inflame.

Whether Blu-ray has better PQ blah blah blah is a topic for another thread, but bringing that up as an example of "fan boyism" obviously reeks of an agenda.

That's how these flame wars start, with somebody "innocently" presenting as fact or as common knowledge a highly biased view, then everybody piles on and it begins. Both sides do it. And typically the true catalyst is the original post, not one of the replies. It takes two to tango, and we should recognize that it is just as important to keep people from making inflammatory statements as it is to prevent people from replying with overly-harsh criticisms.

By the way, I think you misread my post anyway. I was in no way giving credence to my last paragraph. Rather, I was using that as an illustration of a ridiculous claim that the "other side" might make. It wasn't a "counter" in the sense that it should be taken seriously.

:rolleyes: right...

Look, I really couldn't care who wins the format war, as long as it's over sometime soon. I have both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players. I was just pointing out that the example he used was very obviously not innocuous and was meant to inflame.


Ok, wasn't the best example, but I hope you know what I meant (posts like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12017673#post12017673))

I could've easily used posts that repeatedly use comments like "HD DVD is great...if you like boiling discs!" or "BD is great....check out this YouTube video of the Liar's Dice game!"

The point is it's just the same ol' recycled FUD. Be a fanboy of the ignore list and it makes this section of AVS bearable. Thankfully the other sections of AVS outside of here are still pretty mature.

I'm begging AVS - start a www.HD&BD.avsforum.com site and move the whole Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas forum (and subforums) to that. Don't waste the time moderating it. It will either die under its own weight or continue to generate millions of pointless threads.

Unfortunately, AVSForum has a love-hate relationship with this mess. If they are like many web sites, their ad revenue is based on hits. If they move the hidef dvd stuff to it's own domain and not moderate it, it may continue to generate huge hits (and revenue). If it dies under it's own weight they lose the hits that this topic generates. I'm guessing they feel it is bet to just keep 'er as is and rack up massive hits and just whack the occasional beyond-the-pale posts. OTOH, if they don't base ad rates on hits, I have no idea why they don't crack down or section off this mess.

I will say I don't want HDM to fail, even if it means my horse dies. I'm not willing to kill it, but when Blu-ray has $299 1.1 or better yet 2.0 players (for a Panasonic, Pioneer, or Sony) I'll be riding two. I think my terms for crossing the line are reasonable, blu-ray has got to get those parts of it's house in order to survive anyway. A dual-player for $400 would also get me into BD.

The funny thing is that I think there are still many who think crossing the line would be feeding the enemy and prolonging the war. Hardly, there just aren't enough single-format owners like myself who would make a major blip by being bi-curious. Especially since were still no doubt gonna buy primarily from our formats of choice. The total % of HDM owners is so small that even if it grows x2, it's still pretty small.

It might however make the market look fruitful enough in general to spur more retail presence, pick-up the pace and development of consumer-friendly DF players, encourage more catalog-title releases, pull in some indie labels, and knock a buck or two off software pricing. I don't think we that own are going to decide this thing here obviously, and perhaps the second best goal is to at least keep the market going in general til the consumer who isn't on board eventually signs up too.

Ok, wasn't the best example, but I hope you know what I meant (posts like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12017673#post12017673))

I could've easily used posts that repeatedly use comments like "HD DVD is great...if you like boiling discs!" or "BD is great....check out this YouTube video of the Liar's Dice game!"

The point is it's just the same ol' recycled FUD.

True, I'll agree with you there. If you weren't trying to start a flame war, I apologize. The point I was trying to make is that oftentimes these things start when one person presents his or her view as "fact" in a fairly contentious manner. And judging from the reply to my post, I too am probably guilty of writing a bit too provocatively. To minimize the attacking that goes on on the boards, both the overly dramatic "OMG YOU'RE SO STUPID" and the "because of [opinion presented as fact], then my side rules and yours drools" posts need to be monitored.

So for all those who are complaining about bickering . . .

Why are you still here?

:confused::confused:

why? by the time that happens, if ever, the prices should have normalized and player prices should be in the dvd player price range.

Yes, but what will we argue about?:)

So for all those who are complaining about bickering . . .

Why are you still here?

:confused::confused:

There's still the announcement/news story that concerns me. For example, I am still interested in sales/promotions (like how CC had messed up and BOGO was for HD DVD also), as well as waiting for the day if/when the 1.1 update for PS3 is available (because I will go neutral that day).

It's not even the bickering that bugs me...it's just that it's so hard so separate out the facts/truth through all of the FUD/spin/blatant lies.

There's still the announcement/news story that concerns me. For example, I am still interested in sales/promotions (like how CC had messed up and BOGO was for HD DVD also), as well as waiting for the day if/when the 1.1 update for PS3 is available (because I will go neutral that day).

It's not even the bickering that bugs me...it's just that it's so hard so separate out the facts/truth through all of the FUD/spin/blatant lies.

Yet all these items that interest you are posted in the exclusive BD and HD Forums. :confused:

Or is this a case of traffic slowing down so motorists can watch a cop give a speeder a ticket?

What we're seeing is just another example of that human tendency called "tribalism". Black/white, republican/democrat, lutheran/presbyterian, I say "to-may-toe"/you say "to-mah-toe", and now hd dvd/blu-ray; the need to justify one's subjective position. You made your choice, now live with it and leave the rest of us alone - or better yet get BOTH (or a combo player) and smile at the bantering idiots that are castigating one another.

Right now this is a default format war forum. Whether that's good or not is up to the site owners & administrators, but I don't think anyone can deny that's become the case.

I definitely agree that the format specific forums should be moderated with a heavy hand. I make no secret of a preference for BD, but whenever I post in an HDDVD area it's regarding a title or player I want, own, or am interested in. Waaaaay too often do I see HDDVD partisans trolling the Blu-ray areas on AVS, though, so I usually go to blu-ray.com for such content instead (and my ignore list has risen past 20 of just HDDVDers who trolled the BD forums here).

So for all those who are complaining about bickering . . .

Why are you still here?

:confused::confused:

Lee,

You've been here a short time and within that time have added up 6k+ posts! Really, you joined in the middle of the mess thus is the norm to you.

Most of us are here to learn and research. Discuss our hobbies. We're not here refreshing thread after thread looking for the next person to argue with.

If you read back some of the older threads you'd see that people would get into lenghty debates also. The difference being, a general aura of RESPECT was always present. Yes, debates would get heated but they'd be in regards to the technical aspects and perhaps the business model but garbage such as "Site XYZ picks BR!" "Store XYZ picks HD DVD!" "OMG! Biased reviewer gave title X a 3.5on PQ. Must be a paid shill!" was rare and generally ignored.

This is the crap that now runs rampant throughout this section. Like I said, you came into this, is the norm to you and clearly, your participation level is highly active in such threads.

I'm not sure what motivation is. Maybe you all just like to argue endless and enjoy the e-penis wars. Whatever the reason, it's disruptive behavior that has dominated the HiDef sections making valuable contributions get lost in the shuffle.

What we're seeing is just another example of that human tendency called "tribalism". Black/white, republican/democrat, lutheran/presbyterian, I say "to-may-toe"/you say "to-mah-toe", and now hd dvd/blu-ray; the need to justify one's subjective position. You made your choice, now live with it and leave the rest of us alone - or better yet get BOTH (or a combo player) and smile at the bantering idiots that are castigating one another.

Amen! I for one can't wait until my Samsung BD-5000 arrives so I can start enjoying both formats. If one format dies, then I'm still good to go.

Lee,

You've been here a short time and within that time have added up 6k+ posts! Really, you joined in the middle of the mess thus is the norm to you.

Most of us are here to learn and research. Discuss our hobbies. We're not here refreshing thread after thread looking for the next person to argue with.

If you read back some of the older thread you'd see that people would get into lenghty debates also. The difference being, a general aura of RESPECT was always present. Yes, debates would get heated but they'd be in regards to the technical aspects and perhaps the business model but garbage such as "Site XYZ picks BR!" "Store XYZ picks HD DVD!" "OMG! Biased reviewer gave title X a 3.5on PQ. Must be a paid shill!"

This is the crap that now runs rampant throughout this section. Like I said, you came into this, is the norm to you and clearly, your participation level is highly active in such threads.

I'm not sure what motivation is. Maybe you all just like to argue endless and enjoy the e-penis wars. Whatever the reason, it's disruptive behavior that has dominated the HiDef sections making valuable contributions get lost in the shuffle.

I was here 6 years before you were. From 1999 to 2001 so please - no lectures on my post history.

You said it! I have a Sony BDP-S1 and I enjoy blu-ray, but it sure would be nice to see Transformers, Eagles Farewell Concert, etc. in high def, so I too, will grab a Sammy when they come out. Unless people like arguing for arguing's sake (which often seems to be the case), what is so difficult about having players of both formats? I'm sure some of the people on this forum are old enough to remember simultaneously owning a phonograph, tape player, and CD player - did they bitch about those, too?

Why bother? ... do what I do now ... visit rarely, mainly just to check out the Friday sales thread and have a laugh at an occasional thread like this one :)

the ignore list has been growing by leaps and bounds lately.

Amen! I for one can't wait until my Samsung BD-5000 arrives so I can start enjoying both formats. If one format dies, then I'm still good to go.

Lots of comments here seem to make sense, but as long as there are two competing formats, mass adoption will be slowed down. The reason for all the bickering? We all want OUR format to be the survivor.

So, yes, I want HD DVD to win out.;)

I'm with you guys on this as well.

It pisses me off that I can hardly come to the HD disc forums and this forum because every 2nd or 3rd freaking thread topic I see listed is about this damn "format war" and I then have to wade through 56 billion pages of this crap to try and find useful threads like say Xylon's screencap comparo of dvd and these formats. This constant bickering over FREAKING DISC FORMATS embarrasses me as a fellow HTer and I would like to think it embarrasses many others.

I wish everyone who wastes their time arguing over these forums could give me their free time since I would actually put it to good use.

Seriously, what does one gain by constantly arguing about their format of choice with another person and how many times do they have to do it before they grasp that nobody truly cares and it is just annoying? Talk about beating the dead horse.....

I'm with you guys on this as well.

It pisses me off that I can hardly come to the HD disc forums and this forum because every 2nd or 3rd freaking thread topic I see listed is about this damn "format war" and I then have to wade through 56 billion pages of this crap to try and find useful threads like say Xylon's screencap comparo of dvd and these formats. This constant bickering over FREAKING DISC FORMATS embarrasses me as a fellow HTer and I would like to think it embarrasses many others.

I wish everyone who wastes their time arguing over these forums could give me their free time since I would actually put it to good use.

Seriously, what does one gain by constantly arguing about their format of choice with another person and how many times do they have to do it before they grasp that nobody truly cares and it is just annoying? Talk about beating the dead horse.....

You just proved the point . . . very well I would say. You have an opinion that you want to express, just like all the rest of us.

You, like the rest of us, enjoy reading and posting here at AVS. If we didn't . . . we wouldn't be here.;)

:cheers: to the mods for putting up with a lot of uncivil bs and fanboyism and trying to keep things under control.

I'd be in favor of a heavier ban-stick. It is sad that some people are running around making it unpleasant for the rest of us.