Tom,

Several RS1 owners, myself included, have had problems with the image blurring with heavy bass.

I believe the "official" response is that JVC is not aware of any such problem, and that it must be due to mounting.

I believe I have demonstrated otherwise.

I ran a sweep with a sine generator and noticed severe image blurring around 40 Hz; it was about half an inch on a 133" screen.

With the 40 Hz signal, a small amount of vibration could be felt on the shelf and even less on the projector's case.

I couldn't feel any on the lens barrel, but as soon as I lightly touched it the image motion stopped, and when I took my finger off, was a bit less than before, which indicates that it's not securely held in position.

I thought the long optical lever arm might magnify the shelf vibration, and the can be deflected by hand with moderate force.

I added a strut from the back middle of the shelf up to the wall/ceiling intersection, which made it rock solid.

The result was no reduction of the image blurring, and no shift in the sensitive frequency.

If the mount stiffness were a factor, it would have shifted the frequency, and I believe this is the irrefutable "smoking gun".

I cut some strips of foam and stuffed them into the gap between the O.D. of the lens barrel and the case, and that fixed it almost completely; a few pixels of motion are still visible standing next to the screen.

I believe this clearly shows that the problem is with the RS1.

Also, in 8 years of eagle-eyed projector watching at AVS (I finally bought my first one last year), I've never seen any similar complaints about any other projector.

Thanks for listening.

My bass actually shifted the image up!
I wonder if the problem is in the lens shift mechanism?

Wierd problem. Is it possible to use hot glue, foam tape or something similar to hold the lens firmly in place? I would hate to rig something but it seems to be the lesser of two evils if your image is shaking.

Also could you test to see if it was the lens shift mechanism by shifting the image up to it's maximum setting and see if you are getting the same amount of vibration?

Noah just applied for a job as a Vibration Engineer (NVH) at JVC.

Good job Noah, nice methodology.

I hate it when you complain to a company about a part of a product that is obvious and they act like "no, we've never heard that before"

It's fairly clear that the lens mechanism on the JVC is a cheap piece of crap. Yes we love the flexibility but please just add another $0.50 worth of materials when engineering something so it's not crap! Did I mention it was crap?


Here's the solution. spray this in the hole around the lens and now everything will be stable. It will void the warranty and likely destroy the projector but at least your lens will be solidly affixed to the projector.

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/074985/074985001543md.jpg

This is not good news. The RS1 has been a contender for my new projector. I was planning on adding two Klipsch Ultra II subs soon.

I hate it when you complain to a company about a part of a product that is obvious and they act like "no, we've never heard that before"

It's fairly clear that the lens mechanism on the JVC is a cheap piece of crap. Yes we love the flexibility but please just add another $0.50 worth of materials when engineering something so it's not crap! Did I mention it was crap?


Here's the solution. spray this in the hole around the lens and now everything will be stable. It will void the warranty and likely destroy the projector but at least your lens will be solidly affixed to the projector.

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/074985/074985001543md.jpg


:eek:

Several RS1 owners, myself included, have had problems with the image blurring with heavy bass.
I proved there was a problem a long time ago, so I'll probably be attacked and told to go seek psychiatric help again, but it was even easier to prove than Noah's method. I had the projector on a shelf and turned Chicago and Earth, Wind, and Fire up to -10db and the picture blurred very badly with every bass note. I put ANY OTHER PROJECTOR on the same shelf, in the same spot, and could turn the volume up to +5db and the picture remained rock solid.

I had the projector on a shelf and turned Chicago and Earth, Wind, and Fire up to -10db.

Oh sweet Jesus man get yourself to a headshrinker before its too late.

I have three full range speakers that I use for Front LCR powered by 500 watts a channel. They are flat at 20 hz, up 3db at 25hz and can produce 120db in my room. In addition, I have two Martin Logan Descent subs. There is a door on a closet in the rear of my room. The bass vibrates the door like a reed if I have it shut. Think Exorcist:). I have to leave the door open. But not once has the bass shook the lens on the RS1. My projector is ceiling mounted. Shelf mounting may be the problem. When I watch a movie, I knock all of the stuff off the shelf in the bathroom in the next room behind my theater.

May be a QC issue not present on all of the lens or shifting mechanisms.

Another important factor will depend on the room size (modal response) and whether the PJ is accupies the share space with a node or anti-node. Along those lines a PJ is pushed as close to the backwall as possible place the PJ at the intersection of two boundaries (wall/ceiling) therefore bass response at this location will be considerably stronger.

Is there any reason you couldn't just position some springs between the housing and the lens assembly or just some compressed foam or is this an issue of the internal focusing lens vibrating? When you touch the outer lens shell does the vibration stop as someone mentioned above, if so doesn't sound too tough to fix, although I'd agree they should have done it right to begin with. My guess this just got put on a list at JVC of "things to add to the next model." They can't admit it's a problem or they'd be somewhat obligated to fix all of them, extremely expensive, plus have some bad PR instead of some known whiners complaining on some internet site :)

This is not good news. The RS1 has been a contender for my new projector. I was planning on adding two Klipsch Ultra II subs soon.

Not to worry, its a fantastic projector and I wouldn't trade mine for anything else out there.

Anybody with any kind of Yankee ingenuity should be able to figure out how to stop the lens from vibrating. There's dozens of fixes including the packing foam it comes with.

"Also could you test to see if it was the lens shift mechanism by shifting the image up to it's maximum setting and see if you are getting the same amount of vibration?"

The foam won't let the lens shift move to its extremes, and it's too hard to mess with and realign through the porthole in the wall.

"Noah just applied for a job as a Vibration Engineer (NVH) at JVC."

Actually I've already got a that job at Lockheed :)

"This is not good news. The RS1 has been a contender for my new projector."

I wouldn't let that stop me; yours may not do it, and it's an easy fix if it does.

"I put ANY OTHER PROJECTOR on the same shelf, in the same spot, and could turn the volume up to +5db and the picture remained rock solid."

Oh, I missed that, Bob. Yeah, that's a pretty good test, though one could argue that each projector's mass would give a different resonant frequency with the shelf system, and the JVC was lust unlucky.

"Is there any reason you couldn't just position some springs between the housing and the lens assembly or just some compressed foam or is this an issue of the internal focusing lens vibrating?"

As I said, that's exactly what I did and it works fine.

I proved there was a problem a long time ago, so I'll probably be attacked and told to go seek psychiatric help again, but it was even easier to prove than Noah's method. I had the projector on a shelf and turned Chicago and Earth, Wind, and Fire up to -10db and the picture blurred very badly with every bass note. I put ANY OTHER PROJECTOR on the same shelf, in the same spot, and could turn the volume up to +5db and the picture remained rock solid.
You didn't "prove" anything and it is you who are attacking the JVC once again.

Powerful subwoofers can wreck all sorts of havoc in listening rooms. They can in effect cause an "earthquake". (Gee is there a subwoofer called the earthquake too?)
I am never amazed at just poorly designed listening rooms are in being susceptible to resonate mode excitation. Go to any retail outlet too. It's embarrassing when a high-end dealer has to apologize for his rooms shake, rattle and roll. (But the $4K glass cabinet looks so nice!)
And then there is the custom designers and installers. They are not much better. It sure would be interesting if a savvy customer were too add a buzz and rattle acceptance test before paying. :)

The best place to naturally control buzzes and rattles is the basement. Even here the heating and cooling ducts are easily excitable.

Then there is the question of delicate servos attempting to track digital data on a high-speed rotating disc. Did you discover that one too?

Lastly here is a question for just you Bob: can you tell a sick person they are sick?:confused:

My lens moves a crazy amount (probably an inch on the screen) when the washing machine is on, which is in the next room. Haven't noticed it with bass though. Never had that issue with my old projector. Other then that I bought a A35 last night and man does matrix look amazing at 1080p24hz!

My lens moves a crazy amount (probably an inch on the screen) when the washing machine is on, which is in the next room. Haven't noticed it with bass though. Never had that issue with my old projector. Other then that I bought a A35 last night and man does matrix look amazing at 1080p24hz!


Is your PJ table/shelf mounted or ceiling mounted? Washing machine in another room disturbs it is surprising a bit!

Noah,

We've complained to the factory since day one about the lens mounting/shift mechanism but mostly for other reasons...primarily that the cheap plastic gears used are prone to breakage during shipment, it was happening quite often with our demo units. Given the looseness of the overall mounting design, I'm not entirely surprised to find that the whole unit has a resonant frequency, which apparently you've found through testing.

There are many factors that will figure into how much low frequency energy is transmitted to the unit itself and how problematic a given installation might be...likely the reason we haven't heard of widespread problems in spite of the large number of projectors in the field. Hopefully, future products will have improved lens mounting systems. For the time being if you have a problem installation I suggest some of the work-arounds others have mentioned.

Cheers,

OK, thanks for responding, Tom.

Noah,
Thanks for the post.
I have the exact same problem. I'm gonna try your solution of cutting some strips of foam and stuffing them into the gap between the O.D. of the lens barrel and the case.

Noah,

We've complained to the factory since day one about the lens mounting/shift mechanism but mostly for other reasons...primarily that the cheap plastic gears used are prone to breakage during shipment, it was happening quite often with our demo units. Given the looseness of the overall mounting design, I'm not entirely surprised to find that the whole unit has a resonant frequency, which apparently you've found through testing.

...Hopefully, future products will have improved lens mounting systems. For the time being if you have a problem installation I suggest some of the work-arounds others have mentioned.

Cheers,

Tom,

Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying JVC will be doing nothing to address this problem with future RS1 production, but hopefully on other future models? If so, I'd think it would be easy enough to add a factory installed dampening component to address it so not to induce further complaints... No?

Also, any chance of you commenting on the affordable outboard color correction unit that was to be shown at CEDIA? With the RS2 coming soon, and early reports are that the colors are even further oversaturated (which again it appears they can't be corrected), I'm sure there will more consumers than ever wanting to fix the colors on these Reference Series PJs.

Thanks Tom!

Wet,

I think it unlikely that changes to the mechanism in the RS1 will be made at this point in its life-cycle. What really needs to happen is a redesigned lens offset mechanism and future products will likely incorporate some changes. Any change to running production would likely require going through agency certification again.

We had hoped to show a 3rd party product at CEDIA, but it really wasn't ready to show yet. There are a couple other good solutions that we might be able to announce by CES and you've got the Radiance in the market that seems to do a good job.

Actually there AREN'T more consumers than ever wanting their colors fixed...same complaints coming from the same vocal user group. Well, ok, if there were 10 and now there are 11, I guess you have me, that IS more. Putting a full blown CMS in the current hardware platform is not really practical...it will have to wait for a later hardware platform.

As for the color on the RS2, it is still somewhat oversaturated but the color points have been relocated to improve location of the secondary colors and grey scale tracking.

Cheers,

From the images, it apperas red and green push are equal now (I don't nkow how that will affect the PQ). The RS1 had a slight green push, but overall I thought the PQ was great.

-ELmO

Wet,

I think it unlikely that changes to the mechanism in the RS1 will be made at this point in its life-cycle. What really needs to happen is a redesigned lens offset mechanism and future products will likely incorporate some changes. Any change to running production would likely require going through agency certification again.

We had hoped to show a 3rd party product at CEDIA, but it really wasn't ready to show yet. There are a couple other good solutions that we might be able to announce by CES and you've got the Radiance in the market that seems to do a good job.

Actually there AREN'T more consumers than ever wanting their colors fixed...same complaints coming from the same vocal user group. Well, ok, if there were 10 and now there are 11, I guess you have me, that IS more. Putting a full blown CMS in the current hardware platform is not really practical...it will have to wait for a later hardware platform.

As for the color on the RS2, it is still somewhat oversaturated but the color points have been relocated to improve location of the secondary colors and grey scale tracking.

Cheers,
Point taken on the lens.

Good to hear JVC is still looking into an external fix or two for the colors, this is very encouraging. Is this being done within JVC or by outside developers? I'm also happy to see the Radiance seems to be addressing the issue in a satisfactory manor, but I question how many are willing to spend $4k on this VP for this application. With that said, any solution is better than no solution.

Regarding your comment about there "AREN'T more consumers than ever wanting their colors fixed", I hope you don't believe this. There have been FAR more than 10 or 11 people who have expressed concerned about this issue on this website alone (I hope you don't think everyone interested in the RS1/RS2/HD1HD100 spends time at AVS). I'm sure a certain percentage of new and future owners of RS1/RS2 will express some concern as well, whether they post on AVS or not, to think otherwise would be very foolish.

Also, what are the chances of the RS2 including more than one factory installed optional color space? Adding an optional preset for Rec709 @ 6500k like Panasonic is doing with the AE2000u would end the bulk of the criticism. The closer to spec optional gamut seems to be a nice feature Sony added with the VW60 as well. Is this possible with the RS2, or is this not practical either? I suspect this would go a long way in making both sides happy, even if a CMS is not included. :)

Again, thank you for addressing these concerns. :)

I wonder if JVC realizes the issue, or I'd just like to know JVC's thoughts on it. By pushing red on the RS2, I assume they know there was a deficiency (to some) with the RS1's colours....

-ELmO

Point taken on the lens.

Good to hear JVC is still looking into an external fix or two for the colors, this is very encouraging. Is this being done within JVC or by outside developers? I'm also happy to see the Radiance seems to be addressing the issue in a satisfactory manor, but I question how many are willing to spend $4k on this VP for this application. With that said, any solution is better than no solution.



Tom, please answer this^^^^

The colors dont affect me as much as some, but since Im in the market for a "stretch" option for my scope screen, I wouldn't mind having this option.

-Is this thing definetly in the works and its only a matter of time?
-And do you have any kind of a price range, as 4K is way too much for me?

Thanks Tom!

I trained my wife with the JVC: when the bass lift her breast she holds the lens for a while and every thing works fine.

-Is this thing definetly in the works and its only a matter of time?
-And do you have any kind of a price range, as 4K is way too much for me?


RS2 already does the vertical stretch. Although it would be nice for JVC to provide this to RS1 owners that want this feature.

However there are many external scalers that can provide the stretch some as low as $400

Pretty much what I expected
JVC is going to offer something but it was not ready for Cedia, delays happen.
I agree that a price point need to be reached that is well below the Radiance.

tstites
JVC might be correct in that a full blown CMS is not necessary for a successful product but I think the time has come when comsumers demand the option of being able to choose a color space, standard or enlarged. Perfection is for a few but the choice of enlarged or standard is something for everyone.

I wonder if JVC realizes the issue, or I'd just like to know JVC's thoughts on it. By pushing red on the RS2, I assume they know there was a deficiency (to some) with the RS1's colours....

-ELmO

Of course JVC realizes the issue, we make some of the most popular professional broadcast monitors in the production marketplace and they conform to accepted standards...they have to, they're used as production tools.

As I've said before, the factory made design decisions based on many factors including performance, cost, time to market, etc. Right or wrong from the perspective of the AVS Videophile, this product was designed to provide, out-of-the-box, high-performance at a reasonable price to a wide range of users. The market has responded, and continues to respond, very positively to the decisions that were made.

Cheers,

Geeeze. I thought this was a thread about the RS-1 lens "vibrating" during heavy Bass scenes. (seems like every RS1 thread turns into a color correction thread:().

Anyway...
Noah - I tried your fix using foam from one of my extra SVS PB12+2 port plugs. being black in color - you don't even notice it squished around the lens. and it works GREAT! This little fix cuts out about 98% of the lens shake. I'm very pleased. And am now able to turn my subs back up to where they were before the RS-1 installation.:)

Thanks again for the great idea!

I too went with the foam. I was able to find 1" green foam at a fabric store and cut several strips that completely surround the lens. This appears to reduce nearly all of the vibration. Tomorrow I'll paint them black and they'll not be seen.

Of course JVC realizes the issue, we make some of the most popular professional broadcast monitors in the production marketplace and they conform to accepted standards...they have to, they're used as production tools.

As I've said before, the factory made design decisions based on many factors including performance, cost, time to market, etc. Right or wrong from the perspective of the AVS Videophile, this product was designed to provide, out-of-the-box, high-performance at a reasonable price to a wide range of users. The market has responded, and continues to respond, very positively to the decisions that were made.

Cheers,

Hi Tom,

Any updates on the JVC official color saturation solution?

R-S

Tom,

I imagine you must be completely burned-out on this topic -- but could you please leave us with one last bit of feedback regarding Wet1's question about the possibility of more than one factory installed color space option in the RS2. I think it would go an awfully long way to addressing the needs of your customers -- and yes, there are much more than 11 of us.

Thanks very much for your consideration.



Also, what are the chances of the RS2 including more than one factory installed optional color space? Adding an optional preset for Rec709 @ 6500k like Panasonic is doing with the AE2000u would end the bulk of the criticism. The closer to spec optional gamut seems to be a nice feature Sony added with the VW60 as well. Is this possible with the RS2, or is this not practical either? I suspect this would go a long way in making both sides happy, even if a CMS is not included. :)

Again, thank you for addressing these concerns. :)

Is your PJ table/shelf mounted or ceiling mounted? Washing machine in another room disturbs it is surprising a bit!

sorry I forgot about this thread :). It's mounted to the ceiling which is a loft above it. It's very surprising because at first I thought the projector was dieing :)

"Thanks again for the great idea!"

Actually it wasn't mine, but I don't remember whose.

It Was Mine... I did it to mine months ago .

Thanks,
Richard

Blafarm,

Burnt out, hardly...after all, this isn't life/death...it's business and a hobby...and to some, a religion!

No, there is not going to be any sort of dual color mode in the RS2, the hardware platform won't support it without major redesign and the product is shipping in less than 30 days. The RS2 is an incremental upgrade on the RS1, not a completely new chassis and electronics package.

Cheers,

No, there is not going to be any sort of dual color mode in the RS2, the hardware platform won't support it without major redesign and the product is shipping in less than 30 days. The RS2 is an incremental upgrade on the RS1, not a completely new chassis and electronics package.

Cheers,

What about the link on external box that was supposed to be in development to address the color issue? Is that still coming...though delayed?

What about the link on external box that was supposed to be in development to address the color issue? Is that still coming...though delayed?

I commented on that earlier in this thread...there are 3rd party products under development and close to market that will allow dialing in the color...the products will vary in overall functionality and I would guess some might be under $2k.

Cheers,

Blafarm,

Burnt out, hardly...after all, this isn't life/death...it's business and a hobby...and to some, a religion!

No, there is not going to be any sort of dual color mode in the RS2, the hardware platform won't support it without major redesign and the product is shipping in less than 30 days. The RS2 is an incremental upgrade on the RS1, not a completely new chassis and electronics package.

Cheers,

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to that question.

It is good to hear that cheaper than Radiance products are on their way. Most projectors can benefit from an external video processor.
Perhaps the competitors should fear JVC´s next major upgrade. :)

"It Was Mine... I did it to mine months ago ."

Thanks, Richard, you saved me from unnecessarily beefing up my shelf :)

I too went with the foam. I was able to find 1" green foam at a fabric store and cut several strips that completely surround the lens. This appears to reduce nearly all of the vibration. Tomorrow I'll paint them black and they'll not be seen.

Careful with paint on plastic foam. Gooey, never-drying messes can result. You might be better off wrapping some strips of black felt or velvet around the foam.

BB

I agree. I wouldn't paint the foam. Find some black instead.

I saw this for the first time last night, I assume its because the PJ is closer to a wall than in the past. I know I would have seen it before now, bad as it was. I was watching, well actually halfway watching/scanning that terrible Fantastic Four Silver surfer movie, and at times things were shaking big time on the screen. Then when I brought up a menu from the VP50pro trying to get 1080p/24 working right, really easy to see the text shaking all around. Which I instantly thought of what I'd read on AVS.

The RS1 is sitting on a shelve of a rather heavy rack, the same place many pj's have sit I've tried. The sub is a Von Schweikert and I don't think just this one movie would have caused it, considering all the others I've watched. So I assume its because the pj is closer to a back wall now. I was using DTS-HD but it was probably getting downrez.

Anyway, guess I'll find the foam that shipped with it since I'm sure that should hold the lens good as anything else. It is a strange problem.

my car in the garage shakes when my svs rumbles, do i tell my car company to fix that

my car in the garage shakes when my svs rumbles, do i tell my car company to fix that
Yes, if it shakes abnormally, excessively and more than any other car parked in the same spot.

I'm thanking my lucky stars once again, another supposed problem I've never seen from my RS1. Was there a big sale on grey market RS1's or something? I can't believe anyone could be happy going from a properly made RS1 to something with rainbows, especially when colors are so critical. I suppose the rainbows conform to REC709 though. Maybe there's something to mouting against the back wall. I have mine ceiling mounted with an extension post near the seating position.

Well they've already said they aren't going to fix it and I wasn't asking them too. But that don't change the fact the lens shouldn't be trembling so easy. The lens is whats shaking not the pj itself. I've watched it off and on now for about 3 months and I didn't notice it until last night.

The only thing that's changed is now its really close to a wall. The shelf itself is made supposedly with materials to dampen vibration. Unless of course the lens just decided to become more loose all of a sudden. Anyway just trying to focus the lens it moves all around, so I guess no surprise it can move from vibration, I just hadn't seen it so bad if at all. Its no big deal for me putting foam around it, which actually isn't a bad idea with the way its designed anyway. But the easy offset's makes the PJ easy to deal with, so that's just the way it is.

Anyway, guess I'll find the foam that shipped with it since I'm sure that should hold the lens good as anything else.

I tried the shipping foam first. Didn't work for me as my lens is not perfectly centered.

Wall mounting is problematic because all modes have max pressure at boundaries, which you can demonstrate by listening to bass level increase as you approach it.

"I tried the shipping foam first. Didn't work for me as my lens is not perfectly centered."

Just cut the width of the foam to match the space. I used about a 3:1 compression ratio (cut foam 3X thicker than the gap).

the color points have been relocated to improve location of the secondary colors and grey scale tracking.


Hi Tom,
Being able to adjust the greyscale tracking is in itself a really nice improvement. I'm glad to see JVC add that and also the adjustable gamma. Do you know if the RS2 will have an interface to the shading adjustments?

Raid you grandparents driveway and detach the base of the fluid-bed in motion satellite system off their $1 mill. RV.

They will hate you at first, but imagine how happy they will feel accident free on the road (their car in tow being a Volvo)....:)

Wall mounting is problematic because all modes have max pressure at boundaries, which you can demonstrate by listening to bass level increase as you approach it.

"I tried the shipping foam first. Didn't work for me as my lens is not perfectly centered."

Just cut the width of the foam to match the space. I used about a 3:1 compression ratio (cut foam 3X thicker than the gap).

Noah, did you use the shipping foam or did you buy some other foam

thanks

My RS1 arrives today and I also plan to put it near the back wall, so I might need this modification

I got some charcoal packing foam from the dumpster at work.

I got some charcoal packing foam from the dumpster at work.

Ok Thanks