http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/

One Blu-ray studio then provided me with 3rd party substantiation: an internal email from Nielsen's Videoscan giving the point-of-sale data which Paramount isn't disputing:

Transformers HD-DVD
Week Ending 10/21/07 = 89,871 Units (First Week sales as reported in VideoScan First Alert)
---
300 HD-DVD/DVD Combo Pack
Week Ending 8/5/07 = 56,191 Units (First Week sales as reported in VideoScan First Alert)
---
300 Blu-ray
Week Ending 8/5/07 = 107,351 Units (First Week sales as reported in VideoScan First Alert)

I wish the article had verified as to which version of the story is right instead of just reporting conflicting numbers. So does Nielsen data include sales from Amazon and Blockbuster?

When does Nielsen's numbers come out for public view?

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/


Now we know that Paramount's big press release was how many disks they shipped to retailers. Shipped does not equal sales.

300 on Blu-ray still wins first week sales to actual customers.

When does Nielsen's numbers come out for public view?

The raw data generally never comes out to the public. Sometimes a customer of the data will post it in various forms but as far as I know Nielsen never just releases the data to the public in its entirety/detail.

Now we know that Paramount's big press release was how many disks they shipped to retailers. Shipped does not equal sales.

Yup, same thing Sony did with their reported sales of Casino Royal.

This is what Studios typically do.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/Wow, Such a huge difference in 1st week sales between 300 and Transformers. And, unlike 300 with its staying power over time, Transformers has already sunk to 19th position on the current Amazon top sellers list. And it still only the 2nd week of the release. Transformers is nowhere near being in the same league as 300.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

It seems to me the point is not whether Transformers had the highest first week sales ever, but rather whether Paramount's press release did or did not grossly overstate first week sales. It seems there is no doubt now that it did.

I don't understand why everyone keeps asking what retailers are excluded from the data as if that would lead to the "Scooby-doo moment".

If Walmart or Amazon is missing from the Transformers Nielsen data, then it would also be missing from the 300 Blu-ray data. The Nielsen data represents an apples to apples comparison and is probably the best we're going to get.

I can't see why the individual retailer market share for HDM would have shifted significantly for this release. Statistics are often based on large, sampled data.

Wow, Such a huge difference in 1st week sales between 300 and Transformers. And, unlike 300 with its staying power over time, Transformers has already sunk to 19th position on the current Amazon top sellers list. And it still only the 2nd week of the release. Transformers is nowhere near being in the same league as 300.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm
This is the third time I've seen you post about the sinking chart position. I think the forum regulars get it now.

Now we know that Paramount's big press release was how many disks they shipped to retailers. Shipped does not equal sales.

Heh reminds me of Casino Royale :)

This is the third time I've seen you post about the sinking chart position. I think the forum regulars get it now.

How many posts here say something that has been said before? A fairly high percentage, I think.

I love when studios release bogus figures...

I also love how some seem to care if transformers doesn't have staying power and is "dropping" in sales rank at amazon...why does this matter to ANYONE? How does that fact improve your life?

I love when studios release bogus figures...

I also love how some seem to care if transformers doesn't have staying power and is "dropping" in sales rank at amazon...why does this matter to ANYONE? How does that fact improve your life?

Because there is a very large number here that isn't in the Neilson numbers...the number of folks on AVS Forum who feel being right is more important than anything else in their lives and at the same time are through the roof on the nerd meter. This is the detail that makes this forum rife with this sort of thing.

Art

Shipped does not equal sales.

It does to Paramount (and every other studio).

You think discs are provided to retail on spec?

It does to Paramount (and every other studio).

You think discs are provided to retail on spec?
Direct hit.

MEC2

I don't understand why everyone keeps asking what retailers are excluded from the data as if that would lead to the "Scooby-doo moment".

If Walmart or Amazon is missing from the Transformers Nielsen data, then it would also be missing from the 300 Blu-ray data. The Nielsen data represents an apples to apples comparison and is probably the best we're going to get.

I can't see why the individual retailer market share for HDM would have shifted significantly for this release. Statistics are often based on large, sampled data.
You also have to remember that Nielson's sales figures are projections based on extrapolation from the data they do collect. Wal-Mart and Amazon being present or not present it irrelevant. Nielson's statistical analysis makes assumptions to include sales from those retailers as well. Do you really think they are simply counting only a percentage of retailers, then posting that number as the total sold? Just like when they say 10 million people watched a show. It doesn't mean 10 million Nielson participants watched the show. It means based on the number of Nielson participants that did, this is how many probably watched it nationwide. There is definitely some error in the numbers, but their methods have been proven accurate and trusted by big name advertisers for years.

I think according to FASB movie studios can record the sale as soon as they sell the disks to the stores. It is then up to the store to sell to the customer.

Hey, whatever helps you guys deal with not having Transformers on BR.;)

I believe according to GAAP, you can record revenue (sale) as long as there is no understanding that unsold units can be shipped back. In that case, only sold to consumers can be recorded. So, when GM sells a car to a dealer, they cannot count it as revenue earned....

The whole concept of revenue recognition is designed so that you don't inflate sales by shipping to channels and it sits there. It's been a while since I studied accounting, but I took a few courses at UTexas, Austin :)

Hey, whatever helps you guys deal with not having Transformers on BR.;)

So you don't care that Paramount flat out lied when they claimed to have "the fastest and best-selling week one release on either high definition format"?

This is the third time I've seen you post about the sinking chart position. I think the forum regulars get it now.Well, not everyone is a forum "regular", so maybe not everyone knows that Transformers has now sunk to 20th place on Amazon's Top Sellers list and is not in the same league as 300.:):)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

...so maybe not everyone knows that Transformers has now sunk to 20th place on Amazon's Top Sellers list and is not in the same league as 300.

Sheesh, some of you really don't understand how a retail market works and how to interpret statistics.

Transformers was released two weeks ago. The current market is saturated for that title. 300 was released three months ago. Sales continue to chart due to new players entering the market in those three months. Transformers sales will also continue to chart three months from now when those buying new players enter the market SUBSEQUENT to the release of the disc.

So, to those that aren't forum "regulars", be careful who's BS you believe.

So you don't care that Paramount flat out lied when they claimed to have "the fastest and best-selling week one release on either high definition format"?

Where is your PROOF that Paramount "flat out lied"? We don't have all the sales numbers. From all the indications I saw and heard, many BB, CC, WM stores ran out of their allotment of Transformers. A lot of people pre-ordered their copy on Amazon as I did. All we have is speculation that the numers are less than 100k, but NO PROOF.

Far too many insecure BD fanboys feel threatened by Transformers and still feel the pain of losing Paramount, to the point of negating anything positive.

What is wrong with taking things at face value? Neilson rating are not exact just as Amazon's bestsellers numbers aren't acurate for the entire sales base.

edit: By the way, for those loving Amazon's bestsellers, Transformers at 20 is still ahead of Spiderman 3 on BD. Transformers pre-release held a steady top 10 position, even when the B1G1 deal was going on for BD. Just thought I'd make that counter-point for the those that care.

So let me get this straight.

Blu-Boys bitch and scream about HD DVD owners asking "is the 115k figure from HMM correct"

Now that a third source has a lower number the third source is as good as gospel?

Pot Kettle Black

So let me get this straight.

Blu-Boys bitch and scream about HD DVD owners asking "is the 115k figure from HMM correct"

Now that a third source has a lower number the third source is as good as gospel?

Pot Kettle Black

whut?

are u saying Neilson isn't correct? Or HMM?

Or u will just blindly believe anything Paramount says?

Sheesh, some of you really don't understand how a retail market works and how to interpret statistics.

Transformers was released two weeks ago. The current market is saturated for that title. 300 was released three months ago. Sales continue to chart due to new players entering the market in those three months. Transformers sales will also continue to chart three months from now when those buying new players enter the market SUBSEQUENT to the release of the disc.

So, to those that aren't forum "regulars", be careful who's BS you believe.Yes indeed, those who are not forum "regulars" as well as those who are forum "regulars" should certainly be careful about believing BS.

When 300 was released on HD-DVD it was 3rd on the rankings (behind 300 on DVD which was #1 and behind 300 Blu-ray which was number 2). And it stayed there for weeks and it's impact was felt on the Nielsens for many weeks. It's the 5th day of the 2nd week of the 300 release and it has already fallen to 20th place. This movie is not going to have the impact of 300.

And you're are right. There's been an incredible amount of BS that has been posted about Transformers. How great its sales have been and how it is the bestselling HD video, how it outsold 300 in its first week, etc. And, quite frankly, it's ALL BS. It like comparing a baseball player who made it to AAA, stayed there a very short time and then rapidly descended to AA and then out of baseball with a baseball player who made it to the major leagues and had a hall of fame career there.

So when I see the BS starting to get too deep, I do like to interject some facts (with a supporting link) to add a dose of reality.

Where is your PROOF that Paramount "flat out lied"? We don't have all the sales numbers. From all the indications I saw and heard, many BB, CC, WM stores ran out of their allotment of Transformers. A lot of people pre-ordered their copy on Amazon as I did. All we have is speculation that the numers are less than 100k, but NO PROOF.

Far too many insecure BD fanboys feel threatened by Transformers and still feel the pain of losing Paramount, to the point of negating anything positive.

What is wrong with taking things at face value? Neilson rating are not exact just as Amazon's bestsellers numbers aren't acurate for the entire sales base.

edit: By the way, for those loving Amazon's bestsellers, Transformers at 20 is still ahead of Spiderman 3 on BD. Transformers pre-release held a steady top 10 position, even when the B1G1 deal was going on for BD. Just thought I'd make that counter-point for the those that care.

Sounds like YOU'RE the one feeling threatened.

Transformers will probably end up be the 4th best selling HDM title this year, maybe fifth depending on how the Pixar movies will do

1)Spiderman 3
2) Pirates 3
3) 300
4) Rataoillue (sp?)
5) Transformers

Oh btw, there are multiple Spiderman 3 SKU (standalone and boxset with 1&2). Your comparing apples to oranges I'm afraid.

whut?

are u saying Neilson isn't correct? Or HMM?

Or u will just blindly believe anything Paramount says?

I'm just trying to figure out the bluboys train of though. HMM stated that 115k were sold, unless I am wrong HMM gets their numbers from nielsen which is how they inform us of the ratios every week

I love when studios release bogus figures...

I also love how some seem to care if transformers doesn't have staying power and is "dropping" in sales rank at amazon...why does this matter to ANYONE? How does that fact improve your life?
And the sells will probably dropped dramatically since Transformers on HD DVD has now been cracked and ready for ripping for free.

And the sells will probably dropped dramatically since Transformers on HD DVD has now been cracked and ready for ripping for free.

hmmmm, 300 has been out cracked and ready for all the salivating thieves that make up the HD DVD crowd to download wildly for free for ages and somehow that doesn't keep the blu boys crowing how well the sales are :rolleyes:

Where is your PROOF that Paramount "flat out lied"?

Read the first post. 300 BR sold more than TF HD in it's first week. The numbers are not even close.

You can argue that the 190K number wasn't a lie because that may be the number they shipped to resellers. But "the fastest and best-selling week one release on either high definition format" just isn't true.

Read the first post. 300 BR sold more than TF HD in it's first week. The numbers are not even close.

Read all the posts. You keep comparing retail sales stats to studio sales stats. They aren't the same thing.

Read all the posts. You keep comparing retail sales stats to studio sales stats. They aren't the same thing.
Wild assumption time; if Transformers initial shipments were 100k (Paramounts day one sales), and sellthough was significantly less than 90k for the first day (as <90k = first week), retailers probably didn't order another 90k in that first week.

190k as initial shipment seems perfectly reasonable though, leaving the origin of the 100k figure suspect.

Hey, whatever helps you guys deal with not having Transformers on BR
at least now we sure Transformers-2 will be BD only :-)

Read all the posts. You keep comparing retail sales stats to studio sales stats. They aren't the same thing.

Look, it's very simple. The Nielsen numbers are the only numbers we have from a neutral, highly regarded source. And they clearly show that 300 BD sold more than TF HD. Everything else is spin or apples to oranges.

at least now we sure Transformers-2 will be BD only :-)

Yea sure no one at Paramount knew that BD had a BOGO sale. They must be scrathing their heads right now.

Sounds like YOU'RE the one feeling threatened.

Transformers will probably end up be the 4th best selling HDM title this year, maybe fifth depending on how the Pixar movies will do

1)Spiderman 3
2) Pirates 3
3) 300
4) Rataoillue (sp?)
5) Transformers

Oh btw, there are multiple Spiderman 3 SKU (standalone and boxset with 1&2). Your comparing apples to oranges I'm afraid.


Why would I feel threatened?? I have both formats. I look at things as black and white. Why do so many BD fans take that type of position? We must feel threatened if we think this way.

Spiderman 3 is not going to sell as well as the dreams of the BD fan camp dreams. Just to clarify, i am basing this off of pre-order sales, Transformers vs Spideman 3. The proof will show up end of next week, I may be wrong, so be it. At least I don't have blinders on.


Spiderman 3 will not beat out 300 on either format, nor do I see it beating Transformers. If it does, it own't be by much. I am merely speculating, just as you are.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/


What are the BR install base numbers again?

at least now we sure Transformers-2 will be BD only :-)

LOL, your response is one of the funniest I've seen for some time. Paramount owns the rights to Transformers, but somehow that equates to BD exclusivity? Ummm, yeah, okay.:cool:

Yep - no question - BD has the record for the most of a single title sold in one week . . . about 10% of the installed base of players.

HD DVD did about 20% of the installed players with Transformers.

For HD DVD to go over 250,000 for one week - then 50% of the current installed base will have to buy a movie in a single week. I don't see that happening at all. What HD needs are more players in the install base. Wal-Mart will help this happen by dropping 100,000+ players before the end of Nov. I can see BB and CC adding another 50,000+ which will give HD a 30% increase in the total players installed. And the AO and Venturer are unknowns - but they will sell. Could easily see 250,000+ new HD players by the end of Nov. with all of December still to happen.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/

<With best Monty Python subdued voice> * yea *

<Puts pom poms away>

wow it is flying fast and furious around here with lots of speculation on both sides.

there is only one thing we know for sure

TF is on HD DVD and it isn't on BD.

wow it is flying fast and furious around here with lots of speculation on both sides.

there is only one thing we know for sure

TF is on HD DVD and it isn't on BD.

Well be prepared for next week's statements that SPM1, 2 and 3 are ony available on BD - that is how the bickering posts start:(

I'm not seeing the problem here. The numbers that we are using for both TF and 300 came from the studios, not HMM repored Nielsen numbers. We, of course, extrapolated other numbers using the Nielsen ratios, but it was most likely incorrect because the Nielsen numbers did not include all the sales.

Heh reminds me of Casino Royale :)

Well, except it took Casino Royale a while to even get to 100,000.


It does to Paramount (and every other studio).

Ding ding. Paramount makes it's money on units sold from it's warehouse, NOT from consumer sales.

You also have to remember that Nielson's sales figures are projections based on extrapolation from the data they do collect. Wal-Mart and Amazon being present or not present it irrelevant. Nielson's statistical analysis makes assumptions to include sales from those retailers as well. Do you really think they are simply counting only a percentage of retailers, then posting that number as the total sold? Just like when they say 10 million people watched a show. It doesn't mean 10 million Nielson participants watched the show. It means based on the number of Nielson participants that did, this is how many probably watched it nationwide. There is definitely some error in the numbers, but their methods have been proven accurate and trusted by big name advertisers for years.

You are totally wrong. Nielsen reports numbers only from vendors that report to them. It's totally relevant that Walmart doesn't report. None of the copies they sold are counted in the 89 thousand reported by Nielsen. Go read the Nielsen thread.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/which-studio-in-hollywood-is-telling-a-big-ass-fat-stupid-lie/

Warner reported 300 as having sold 250.000 the first week. Yet in those numbers they only show around 163.000. Why don't you start a thread about how they lied?

The difference of course is that the first Nielsen week is missing one day and that Nielsen is missing a lot of the market.

Of course Paramount (and Warner) gives full market sales figures. Why on earth would they send out a press release only mentioning what they sold through parts of the market. What would a newspaper reader have any use for

1. We sold x amount of copies
2. We sold x amount of copies in stores that bother to report to Nielsen.

There's no proof what so ever that Paramount lied. It looks like they probably included Canada but so did likely Warner for 300.

You are totally wrong. Nielsen reports numbers only from vendors that report to them. It's totally relevant that Walmart doesn't report. None of the copies they sold are counted in the 89 thousand reported by Nielsen. Go read the Nielsen thread.

No it isn't relevant at all because Wally World ect numbers were not counted for the BD version of 300 either. :rolleyes:

Warner reported 300 as having sold 250.000 the first week. Yet in those numbers they only show around 163.000. Why don't you start a thread about how they lied?

The difference of course is that the first Nielsen week is missing one day and that Nielsen is missing a lot of the market.

Of course Paramount (and Warner) gives full market sales figures. Why on earth would they send out a press release only mentioning what they sold through parts of the market. What would a newspaper reader have any use for

1. We sold x amount of copies
2. We sold x amount of copies in stores that bother to report to Nielsen.

There's no proof what so ever that Paramount lied. It looks like they probably included Canada but so did likely Warner for 300.

Do I remember the PR saying that Paramount said they sold 190,000 * to consumers * and not just "we sold 190,000 copies."

If that was the case then the run which the wholesalers bought could have been either 200,000 or 250,000.

We know that every copy pressed was not bought up by a consumer.

Spiderman 3 is not going to sell as well as the dreams of the BD fan camp dreams. Just to clarify, i am basing this off of pre-order sales, Transformers vs Spideman 3. The proof will show up end of next week, I may be wrong, so be it. At least I don't have blinders on.



Just curious.
How do you know how many SP3 have been pre-ordered and from which vendors ?

I don't care one way or the other, Paramount did stress their sold line, which might include rental businesses. On other source said (he believed) the 190k figure was with out Canadian sales.
Also the figure WB announced after the 300's first week is about 100k more than the NPD
Some Blu spokesman said something about the "Exact point of sale data from 3 retailers that make up 62% of the high-def market" Hum, we know of the top five HD retailers Wal-mart is 3rd and does not report their sales.

wait for Monday and see if Paramount recants or if they bolster that number including sales from Canada, if they were not already tallied .

If anything this may be showing how poor NPD numbers are.

Seriously if the top selling HDM week to week are only in the 10k- 1k brackets (for both formats) I wonder why anybody bothers.

EDIT.. just to be clear I thank the studios for forbearing the low sales and pioneering HDM for us. With out them, on sales alone it would be done without the vision these studios have of better home entertainment (and double dipping slaes ;) )

Look, it's very simple. The Nielsen numbers are the only numbers we have from a neutral, highly regarded source. And they clearly show that 300 BD sold more than TF HD. Everything else is spin or apples to oranges.

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again...
Nielsen numbers DON'T include the entire market. They are a snapshot, and a good one but lack the numbers from big vendors like Walmart and Amazon

It's fun to play the weekly predictions thread but it's not the end all be all. eliminating the #1 DVD selling store and the #1 online store is a big void to fill. In fact, no one but Paramount will know wether or not 190k, 110k, or 5 units of TF in HD DVD were sold.

We bicker and b*tch about sales numbers that are minuscule compared to SD DVD. Think about it, HD DVD "sold" under 200k units, even if BD sold the same you are under 1/2 a million units. Has anyone seen what SD version sold? Almost 10 million in week 1. Blip on the radar yet we poise formats to die and the war being over and how studios or retailers are liars. It's niche language.

Transformers < 300 Blu-ray
Accept it. No need to justify or theorize a win for HD DVD.
Just face it that Paramount was trying to soften the blow using the 190K shipped numbers before the Nielson numbers were reported, which they probably knew that they lost the week to Blu-ray(again) from an insider at Nielson early in the week.
/end thread.

Transformers < 300 Blu-ray
Accept it. No need to justify or theorize a win for HD DVD.

/end thread.

Haha, if only it were that easy. :(
This thread will go on for 8 more pages of the same rubbish of arguing about how neilson numbers don't include every sale.


I give a huge +1 to
Transformers < 300 Blu-ray

Transformers < 300 Blu-ray
Accept it. No need to justify or theorize a win for HD DVD.
Just face it that Paramount was trying to soften the blow using the 190K shipped numbers before the Nielson numbers were reported, which they probably knew that they lost the week to Blu-ray(again) from an insider at Nielson early in the week.
/end thread.


shipped
sold

Isn't that Sony's lines with how they did the PS3 sales data some time ago? Why yes it is! And now those 'sold' 60gb models are STILL being sold to the consumer to this day.

WHO CARES?! Why be bitter about TF not being on BD? Just get an HD DVD player and enjoy both.

I personally think this HDM war is assinine and the fanboys even worse. Ever come to think that most don't want the next gen movie format to be decided by gamers? (btw, I'm a gamer but also passionate for movies. I'm going to embrace both, why can't everyone do the same?)

Be a fanboy of movies in high def, not a fanboy of a format. I try to come on here and other HDM sites but what do I see? The constant spewing of trolls and fanboys trying to prove superiority that does not exist.

All I know is I am enjoying HD DVD but want those titles that can only be found on BD. I want the MOVIES.

Nielsen gets 75-80% of the HD market. The only major retailer they miss is Wal*mart. They include Amazon.

You are totally wrong. Nielsen reports numbers only from vendors that report to them. It's totally relevant that Walmart doesn't report. None of the copies they sold are counted in the 89 thousand reported by Nielsen. Go read the Nielsen thread.

I did read the Nielsen thread. I also used to provide data to them. They don't put out total numbers that are only their raw data for their sample locations. They extrapolate the total numbers using statistical analysis. Just like they do for TV ratings.

Transformers < 300 Blu-ray

You have better say Transformers HD DVD because Transformers did 8.5 million PLUS HD DVD.

You have better say Transformers HD DVD because Transformers did 8.5 million PLUS HD DVD.

Being in the HDTV software media discussion section on a forum, I sincerely hope that one would assume.

So you don't care that Paramount flat out lied when they claimed to have "the fastest and best-selling week one release on either high definition format"?

No we are use to hearing lies from BD that they all kind of blend together...and who said they lied??

Where is the "official" link and news story?:)

How many posts here say something that has been said before? A fairly high percentage, I think.


LOL!!!!

I don't think anyone lied. There is no conspiracy theory. People are just (as usual) quote the numbers that make their argument. Since we don't have insight into the details behind their numbers, some morons have decided to get all spun up about who is lying and why the numbers don't match. It doesn't matter, people! The Nielsen numbers surprised everyone this week. Let's see what happens next week. I suspect, the ratio will be about the same...

Transformers < 300 Blu-ray
Accept it. No need to justify or theorize a win for HD DVD.
Just face it that Paramount was trying to soften the blow using the 190K shipped numbers before the Nielson numbers were reported, which they probably knew that they lost the week to Blu-ray(again) from an insider at Nielson early in the week.
/end thread.
Transformers: HD DVD ONLY. Accept it. No need to stay bitter about that.

Because there is a very large number here that isn't in the Neilson numbers...the number of folks on AVS Forum who feel being right is more important than anything else in their lives and at the same time are through the roof on the nerd meter. This is the detail that makes this forum rife with this sort of thing.

Art


Art, still want an invite to your next meet. I checked out your website for the previous get to gethers. WOW. The fruit pizzas alone.

Also, I agree with your post.:) Now back to Marie Antoinette on BD.

Well, not everyone is a forum "regular", so maybe not everyone knows that Transformers has now sunk to 20th place on Amazon's Top Sellers list and is not in the same league as 300.:):)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

You do realize that the sales rank number isn't relatable to any actual sales number right?
It's not like rank #5 will always equal X less than #4.
In theory a title could sell the exact same number of discs every week of the year and every week have a different rank on amazon. In order for it to mean anything, you need the actual sales numbers week to week from amazon. Either way rank is only good for comparing titles on that list at that very moment. That being said Transformers is still the highest rank HDM item.

I'm not saying either way if Transformers will have the same staying power as 300. I'm just saying using the Amazon Topsellers rank is not an accurate way of determining staying power.

Haven't scanned through the entire thread, but does anyone realize that when you add up the Blu-ray and HD DVD totals of 300, it doesn't come out to 250,000, the supposed first week sales of that title?

Oh no, Warner Bros. Lied!!!!!

When you add the two figures you get 163,542 (56,191+107,351). It found an additional 86,458 units to hit 250,000.

If you add that same amount to the 89,871 units sold reported in the article for Transformers, you come to more than 175,000 units.

The 190,000 figure is probably accurate.

Haven't scanned through the entire thread, but does anyone realize that when you add up the Blu-ray and HD DVD totals of 300, it doesn't come out to 250,000, the supposed first week sales of that title?

Oh no, Warner Bros. Lied!!!!!

When you add the two figures you get 163,542 (56,191+107,351). It found an additional 86,458 units to hit 250,000.

If you add that same amount to the 89,871 units sold reported in the article for Transformers, you come to more than 175,000 units.

The 190,000 figure is probably accurate.
+1

one other point Paramount lauded another figure aside from the 190k High Def transformers, and that was this "year’s top-selling week one DVD with North American sales reaching 8.3 million units" and "the best-selling DVD day one for the year with over 4.5 million units sold on Tuesday"

If Warner Bros numbers are correct then Paramounts probably are too.

Even though Transformers is NOT the best selling HDM disc on either format, it can still at least be the best selling HDM disc on HD DVD. That's something.

More to the point, imagine how many BD's of the same movie would have been sold. Then they truly would have had the best selling title on both formats. I'm sure that 150 mill's still more though than the amount they'd have made hypothetically on the higher sales potential of BD.

This thread has relevance in debunking something that was pretty prevalent at the time of Transformers release when Paramount (apparently) prematurely announced its early numbers. And I do recall many a Redcoat crying, "PARAMOUNT MEANT DISCS SOLD, NOT DISCS SHIPPED, BECAUSE THEY SAID 'SOLD!'" To see them now backtrack and argue, "Well, no, they didn't say discs sold to consumes, they just meant discs sold..." is highly amusing. Because in the same breath, they cry, "And Sony did it, too! So nyah! I don't want to hear you point out my hypocrisy! DO NOT POINT IT OUT! LA LA LAAA!"

It is high entertaining. I personally don't care. Transformers is a great movie with a great transfer marred with what appears to be some curious LFE use at the beginning of the movie and a stunning (and disheartening) lack of use of lossless audio just when it seemed Paramount really GOT why they needed to be using it.

Imagine if DTS had been dropped at the beginning of DVD because there were few receivers to use it and most didn't have home theaters capable of using it. Certainly, that lack of lossless bothers me more than the sales numbers of Transformers versus the sales numbers of 300.

But if 300 on BD by itself really did beat Transformers on HD DVD, then I'd say that bodes very poorly for HD DVD as a format.

I love how Russ pointed out the blatent hypocrisy in the 300 arguement, and then Blu-ray fanboys simply chose to ignore it and make the same unproven unsubstantiated point that isn't gaining any traction.

You do realize that the sales rank number isn't relatable to any actual sales number right?
It's not like rank #5 will always equal X less than #4.
In theory a title could sell the exact same number of discs every week of the year and every week have a different rank on amazon. In order for it to mean anything, you need the actual sales numbers week to week from amazon. Either way rank is only good for comparing titles on that list at that very moment. That being said Transformers is still the highest rank HDM item.

I'm not saying either way if Transformers will have the same staying power as 300. I'm just saying using the Amazon Topsellers rank is not an accurate way of determining staying power.Well, maybe not. But if it is, then Transformers is falling faster than Enron stock did on its darkest day. Transformers has now fallen to 25th place and has been passed by the highest selling of the two Blu-ray Spiderman 3 releases. And it's only the 6th day of the 2nd week of the Transformers release.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

That being said Transformers is still the highest rank HDM item.Well, it was earlier today. But no longer; and likely NEVER again. It's illustrious, but very short, career as the top seller has passed. It had its time in the sun.

Yea sure no one at Paramount knew that BD had a BOGO sale. They must be scrathing their heads right now.
Nope - just ROFL at Toshibia in their cash lined beds.

Haven't scanned through the entire thread, but does anyone realize that when you add up the Blu-ray and HD DVD totals of 300, it doesn't come out to 250,000, the supposed first week sales of that title?

Oh no, Warner Bros. Lied!!!!!

When you add the two figures you get 163,542 (56,191+107,351). It found an additional 86,458 units to hit 250,000.

If you add that same amount to the 89,871 units sold reported in the article for Transformers, you come to more than 175,000 units.

The 190,000 figure is probably accurate.

Well 89K is roughly 55% of 163K so you should only add 47,552. And when you do, you get 137,423.

Well, not everyone is a forum "regular", so maybe not everyone knows that Transformers has now sunk to 20th place on Amazon's Top Sellers list and is not in the same league as 300.:):)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

funny, and it was actually the first time I read about it - and I frequent this forum a lot..

I believe according to GAAP, you can record revenue (sale) as long as there is no understanding that unsold units can be shipped back. In that case, only sold to consumers can be recorded. So, when GM sells a car to a dealer, they cannot count it as revenue earned....

The whole concept of revenue recognition is designed so that you don't inflate sales by shipping to channels and it sits there. It's been a while since I studied accounting, but I took a few courses at UTexas, Austin :)

katzenberg did get into trouble with the Shrek2 sales missteps. They had to face irate retailers AND their shareholders over this stuffing the channel thing. Now in the grand scheme of things, the transformers-HDDVD thing is noise and doesn't even register on GAAP or SOX guidelines, but as we've seen.

WB-300 HDM : Nielsen First Alert 300-HDM = 1.55
Paramount-Transformers HDM : Nielsen First Alert Transformers HDM = 2.11

Why this deviation in numbers? Note Warner's 300-HDM ratio was a tiny bit higher than the HDM numbers so still within the margin of doubt (+ the 1 day difference).

Paramount's ratio was too high to be within margin of doubt. IE: someone consciously or inadvertently made a mistake there.

But there's another possible explanation. If we recall the retail scene for 300-HDM, many places sold out of these disks in week1. Transformers-HDDVD otoh, can be found everywhere, this could be the explanation for the high numbers claimed by Paramount : unsold-disks.

I can understand why so many was shipped and so many are in the stores. My scenarios for the big blockbusters on HDM week1 was supposed to be as high as 500k copies sold in week1 closer to xmas time. This still remains to be seen.

how about no one lied?

Paramount probably reported the numbers they sold to distributors, which to us would mean units shipped rather than sold.

Niesen reports the numbers sold at retail, however many they include.

these numbers will differ, but it doesnt mean anyone lied. now if transformers did not outsell 300, i think spiderman 3 will beat it.

hmmmm, 300 has been out cracked and ready for all the salivating thieves that make up the HD DVD crowd to download wildly for free for ages and somehow that doesn't keep the blu boys crowing how well the sales are :rolleyes:

Transformers HD DVD now also cracked.

Well, maybe not. But if it is, then Transformers is falling faster than Enron stock did on its darkest day. Transformers has now fallen to 25th place and has been passed by the highest selling of the two Blu-ray Spiderman 3 releases. And it's only the 6th day of the 2nd week of the Transformers release.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm

Well, it was earlier today. But no longer; and likely NEVER again. It's illustrious, but very short, career as the top seller has passed. It had its time in the sun.

Transformers was the #1 HDM title for a full month preceeding its release. Spiderman became the #1 title THE DAY BEFORE ITS RELEASE. And you think talking smack about this is a good idea? SM3 has already fallen flat on its face and that is at 50% off the original msrp.

And who was the joker that said Ratatouille would sell more disks than TF this year.

Are you guys for real? I feel like their must be a hidden camera around here.

On a completely separate note, if Paramount released the shipped number and not the sold to consumers number they should be slapped. The way they released it giving first day sales and the totals for the rest of the week would have been designed almost entirely to mislead and that is a shame. I thought they were above such shenanigans.

how about no one lied?

Paramount probably reported the numbers they sold to distributors, which to us would mean units shipped rather than sold.


Except for the fact that certain HDDVD partisans who repeatedly posted to the effect and emphazied Paramount's press release and claims to amount specificially sold to consumers. I should post some names and links but I'll instead just smile smugly. :D


these numbers will differ, but it doesnt mean anyone lied. now if transformers did not outsell 300, i think spiderman 3 will beat it.

Spidey 3's problem is that it's sales are going to be diluted amongst giveaways, the trilogy set, and the single disc release. It should still do quite well. Most likely much better than 300 BD, and I'm thinking a tad bit better than combined 300 BD+HDDVD.

Transformers HD DVD now also cracked.

Slysoft breaks latest 'unbreakable' HD-DVD and BluRay copy protection (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Slysoft-breaks-latest-unbreakable-HD-DVD-and-BluRay-copy-protection.html)
All that AACS-LA has to offer now is BD+, but even that is on the verge of being circumvented and a release is expected by the end of this year.
James Wong, Head of development at SlySoft: "We already found a way to crack BD+ and we have just turned to fine-tuning. I should really think about hiring a bodyguard now, since this product won't please everybody."

1)Spiderman 3
2) Pirates 3
3) 300
4) Rataoillue (sp?)
5) Transformers


My friend, all you have there is a DREAM. What reality will be, we'll see soon enough, but I'm pretty sure Spider-man 3 and POTC3 sales will surprise you how low they will be. I don't even think that fanatics who buy 5 copies of the same movies on Blu-Ray just to sell them on eBay will manage to outdo Transfomers.

I like how most Blu-Ray fanboys keep talking about in future tense. Like, this will happen, or this title will outsell, or the finally fully featured Blu-Ray player will come "soon" and so on. It's pure comedy really.

So let's analyze the situation right now, Transfomers is like it or not, the highest selling title on HDM. Fact. The amount of discs sold at certain retail locations most definitely outperformed 300 sales and with reason, Transformers is a more likeable more general type of movie, 300 wasn't everyone's cup of tea.

Get on with the facts, and let's discuss your theories when titles you have named go on sale.

Slysoft breaks latest 'unbreakable' HD-DVD and BluRay copy protection (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Slysoft-breaks-latest-unbreakable-HD-DVD-and-BluRay-copy-protection.html)Really?:)