Please stop the FUD and misinformation

I am a dual format owner. I know a lot of HD DVD-only owners are grasping for some kind way to attack Blu-ray at the moment.

Especially after Blu-ray software outsold HD DVD software the week of the big Transformers HD DVD exclusive.

However, it really makes all of us HD DVD owners look bad when some people start cheering on piracy.

MidnightWatcher is posting screenshots of copyrighted material that he claims was obtained by trying to circumvent BD+ and the provisions of the DMCA.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070620-blu-ray-content-protection-agency-certifies-bd.html

According to the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), for hackers to successfully attack the BD+ system they would have to first extract the AACS keys (which has already been done quite successfully) and then overcome title-specific security code by reverse-engineering the BD+ virtual machine. While this last bit is definitely an additional challenge, it is by no means impossible.

All in due time. Few if any people on this forum understand the mentality of the guys who do this stuff as a hobby. They thrive on challenges. They do it for fun. It will happen. The whole idea of these protection methods is to minimize the impact, not stop it. Even the BDA knows that. BD+ is still new. In another 6 months it will have been done.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070620-blu-ray-content-protection-agency-certifies-bd.html



All in due time. Few if any people on this forum understand the mentality of the guys who do this stuff as a hobby. They thrive on challenges. They do it for fun. It will happen. The whole idea of these protection methods is to minimize the impact, not stop it. Even the BDA knows that. BD+ is still new. In another 6 months it will have been done.

Thats fine but I've seen screenshots of copyrighted material posted that was claimed to have been obtained by trying to circumvent BD+ and the provisions of the DMCA.

This is bad for this website, and bad for all movie lovers, and movie creators becuase it will slow down future HDM releases.

As I understand it this website can also be held liable for hosting this material.

report those posting illegaly obtained copyrighted material here:

BSA:
https://reporting.bsa.org/usa/home.aspx?pr=1&CMP=KNC-google&HBX_PK=BSA&HBX_OU=50

MPAA:
http://www.mpaa.org/piracy.asp

Sony:
https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/corporate/contact.asp?id=32

I don't want to make the MPAA nor Sony's job easier personally.

I don't want to make the MPAA nor Sony's job easier personally.

Do you own stock?

Many people are not just consumers but also shareholders. (even if for many people it is only through a 401k plan)

There is no different posting screenshots from this film and any other BD/HD film.

Give it a rest...

Man, what?

If screencaps are illegal, than Art is screwed, as he went to town taking GREAT screencaps of 2001 in his theater for his review.

edit: Just chill out, this is nothing to get ruffled feathers over.

It's fair use, laughable that posting a single frame from a movie breaches copyright.

And the circumvention took place outside DMCA jurisdiction.

Man, what?

If screencaps are illegal, than Art is screwed, as he went to town taking GREAT screencaps of 2001 in his theater for his review.

edit: Just chill out, this is nothing to get ruffled feathers over.

It is one thing to use a camera to take pictures of your home theater.

It is entirely something else to post pictures acquired by trying to hack into BD+ and take the original digital data off of the disk.

And the circumvention took place outside DMCA jurisdiction.

AVSforum.com is not outside of DMCA jurisdiction. ;)

It is one thing to use a camera to take pictures of your home theater.

It is entirely something else to post pictures acquired by trying to hack into BD+ and take the original digital data off of the disk.

If you own the disc, its fair use. We all love the screencaps thats have been done and placed on this forum (And no they were not camera captures). It actually helps us when we purchase titles.

Do you own stock or something in BD+ ??? You seem very overprotective that we even discuss the thing?

I recommended he not do it, but truthfully, everyone who has posted screenshots of movies in the sd/blu/hd dvd comparison threads have broken the law. :P

What about fair use and similar laws? What about exemptions to copyright law eg. if it is a review or something? What about if it was being used as part of a discussion about compression artefacts/flaws/problems in a particular title and that screenshot was just being used to point them out. What about if there were no obvious flaws in an image/dvd title and the screenshot was used as part of an discussion/article/review - would that be legal?

Criticism or review is an allowed exemption to copyright law (would that include screenshots that point out picture artefacts etc? What about other screenshots?)

Note: I'm NOT condoning piracy. Piracy is bad and illegal. I'm just wondering whether screenshots for reviews/criticism or other discussions is okay.

He posted a screenshot from his HT set up and simply fabricated the story....at least he put a '?' at the thread's titles....that told me he was a bit sheepish about the info.

report those posting illegaly obtained copyrighted material here:

BSA:
https://reporting.bsa.org/usa/home.aspx?pr=1&CMP=KNC-google&HBX_PK=BSA&HBX_OU=50

MPAA:
http://www.mpaa.org/piracy.asp

Sony:
https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/corporate/contact.asp?id=32And I'm sure the forum administrators will cooperate in anti-piracy measures by providing the IP addresses of such posters to the proper authorities. I find it amazing the number of HD-DVD fans who (judging by some of the postings I have seen) are actually cheering piracy on and are gleeful as they fantasize about the possibilities of BD+ being cracked. IMO.

And I'm sure the forum administrators will cooperate in anti-piracy measures by providing the IP addresses of such posters to the proper authorities. I find it amazing the number of HD-DVD fans who (judging by some of the postings I have seen) are actually cheering piracy on and are gleeful as they fantasize about the possibilities of BD+ being cracked. IMO.

Well I would LMAO if it was cracked. Not because I support piracy (Im almost going broke in buying movies) But it will just show how futile it is to try and stop piracy this way.

Fair pricing is what works best.

Why do you care so much Apple?

This is bad for this website, and bad for all movie lovers, and movie creators becuase it will slow down future HDM releases.


Didn't really slow down HD DVD releases, sounds like a Blu-ray paranoia.

And I'm sure the forum administrators will cooperate in anti-piracy measures by providing the IP addresses of such posters to the proper authorities. I find it amazing the number of HD-DVD fans who (judging by some of the postings I have seen) are actually cheering piracy on and are gleeful as they fantasize about the possibilities of BD+ being cracked. IMO.
To hell with fair use, right? The DMCA, Sony and Fox would love every customer to be as accepting as you.

And I'm sure the forum administrators will cooperate in anti-piracy measures by providing the IP addresses of such posters to the proper authorities. I find it amazing the number of HD-DVD fans who (judging by some of the postings I have seen) are actually cheering piracy on and are gleeful as they fantasize about the possibilities of BD+ being cracked. IMO.

Not cheering piracy, cheering those who remember that we didn't sign away our fair use rights lock stock and barrel. Big difference.

I'm sure the BDA is relieved that self appointed hall monitors will defend their financial interests for unknown reasons. I'm sure they will rest easy now. This thread will surely scare away any more attempts to circumvent BD+.

I wouldn't have a problem with BD+ if it didn't force player firmware updates everytime they changed the scheme (in responsed to hackers). I still waiting for LG to develop the firmware fix for Fantastic 4: Silver surfer (and probably a few other Fox movies). I'm not exactly looking forward to the next time a studio feels a BD+ update is necessary because that will probably drive yet another firmware fix.

Not cheering piracy, cheering those who remember that we didn't sign away our fair use rights lock stock and barrel. Big difference.

+1

Not cheering piracy, cheering those who remember that we didn't sign away our fair use rights lock stock and barrel. Big difference.

+2

Why do you care so much Apple?

Probably because he gets paid to post.

Not cheering piracy, cheering those who remember that we didn't sign away our fair use rights lock stock and barrel. Big difference.
+3, you really put my response to shame.:o

Please stop the FUD and misinformation

I am a dual format owner. I know a lot of HD DVD-only owners are grasping for some kind way to attack Blu-ray at the moment.

Especially after Blu-ray software outsold HD DVD software the week of the big Transformers HD DVD exclusive.

However, it really makes all of us HD DVD owners look bad when some people start cheering on piracy.

MidnightWatcher is posting screenshots of copyrighted material that he claims was obtained by trying to circumvent BD+ and the provisions of the DMCA.

Why not similarly comment on BD owners cheering the piracy of Transformers? And what's with the baiting of HDDVD owners? Can't you just simply make your point about MidnightWatcher? Why bash all HDDVD owners because one guy is on a mission with regards to BD copy protection? Don't you think there are BD owners who would love to see their format cracked as well? Sheesh.

This reminds me a bit about the AACS crack thread from last year that ran for so many months. I'm too lazy to search for it now but it was titled something like "AACS not so cracked after all!". And we all know how well that went. ;)

- Tom

Why not similarly comment on BD owners cheering the piracy of Transformers? And what's with the baiting of HDDVD owners? Can't you just simply make your point about MidnightWatcher? Why bash all HDDVD owners because one guy is on a mission with regards to BD copy protection? Don't you think there are BD owners who would love to see their format cracked as well? Sheesh.

because last night MidnightWatcher started the thread, but others were cheering it on, last night (before the thread got deleted) one person actually said that they couldn't wait for BD+ to be cracked, my jaw dropped when I read this, I know we are in a format war, we can argue specs, strategy, and personal view points, but to sit there and cheer on the violation of a anti-piracy measure is unacceptable.

here's what BD+ does:

" * examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
* verify that the player's keys have not been changed.
* execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
* transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program unscramble it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD%2B#Digital_rights_management_.28DRM.29

BD+ is for the post part verifying that the player your using hasn't been tampered with or altered in some fashion.

and I'll be perfectly honest I hate alot of forms of DRM, but simply because they restrict people from watching content that they've paid for, But with BD+ it simply a technology put in layman's terms "you can watch the movie all you want just please don't rip us off"BD+ doesn't say you can only watch it on 1 player, it doesn't say you have 1 week to enjoy the film, it doesn't say you can only play it on Sony players it just tries to ensure that you enjoy the film and avoid ripping it.

let's be fair if you worked hard on producing something would you want people to take your hard work and copy it I know I wouldn't.

AVSforum.com is not outside of DMCA jurisdiction. ;)

AVSforum didn't circumvent the DRM.

I personally feel that BD+ will hinder the roll-out of legitimate managed copy, make it harder to get good functional full-rez HTPC software players, and potentially compromise my privacy and the security of my PC. So I'll bet a whole lot of people are secretly cheering on the hackers.

But I don't really expect the above statement to get this thread closed.

- Tom

If it hasn't been cracked, it will. It's all a matter of time. I don't understand why the studios or BDA bother as it will be broken. I also don't get why the consumer would even care for DRM in the first place as it's already blocked the end user from playing his disks (i.e. Fox -> Samsung/LG)

let's be fair if you worked hard on producing something would you want people to take your hard work and copy it I know I wouldn't.

That's what the studios attempted to do when they didn't want to pay actors royalties. They wanted to own their performance in perpetuity.


There's various reasons justifying IP. It isn't a right per se. Making multi-billion dollar corporations wealthier isn't a good justification and I think the download stats of P2P services show most of the world population also thinks that.

If you look at stuff like HDCP as an example. The only real thing it does is preventing people to se their legal purchased movies on a non HDCP compliant display at full res.

Those who get their hands on copies get rid of that stuff.

Give us legal buyers more, not less.

BD+ discs have been out for about 3 1/2 weeks now. I haven't checked for a few days but I don't believe there are yet any commerically sold software players that can play them all successfully.

It is almost starting to look like a race between whether the legal or illegal PC players will be first to support BD+.

- Tom

because last night MidnightWatcher started the thread, but others were cheering it on, last night (before the thread got deleted) one person actually said that they couldn't wait for BD+ to be cracked, my jaw dropped when I read this, I know we are in a format war, we can argue specs, strategy, and personal view points, but to sit there and cheer on the violation of a anti-piracy measure is unacceptable.

here's what BD+ does:

" * examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
* verify that the player's keys have not been changed.
* execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
* transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program unscramble it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD%2B#Digital_rights_management_.28DRM.29

BD+ is for the post part verifying that the player your using hasn't been tampered with or altered in some fashion.

and I'll be perfectly honest I hate alot of forms of DRM, but simply because they restrict people from watching content that they've paid for, But with BD+ it simply a technology put in layman's terms "you can watch the movie all you want just please don't rip us off"BD+ doesn't say you can only watch it on 1 player, it doesn't say you have 1 week to enjoy the film, it doesn't say you can only play it on Sony players it just tries to ensure that you enjoy the film and avoid ripping it.

let's be fair if you worked hard on producing something would you want people to take your hard work and copy it I know I wouldn't.

I appreciate the response -- good information. But I still don't understand why apples had to solely indict HDDVD owners. BD owners are cheering the breaking of HDDVD copy protection and availability of Transformers.
There are likely a lot of BD owners who would be happy to see their format's copy protection broken. This issue is not unique to one side of the format war, both sides have their supporters and detractors of copy protection.

It is one thing to use a camera to take pictures of your home theater.

It is entirely something else to post pictures acquired by trying to hack into BD+ and take the original digital data off of the disk.

Other than breaking the law if it is, why do you care if they crack BD+?
:confused:

Please stop the FUD and misinformation

I am a dual format owner. I know a lot of HD DVD-only owners are grasping for some kind way to attack Blu-ray at the moment.

Especially after Blu-ray software outsold HD DVD software the week of the big Transformers HD DVD exclusive.

However, it really makes all of us HD DVD owners look bad when some people start cheering on piracy.

MidnightWatcher is posting screenshots of copyrighted material that he claims was obtained by trying to circumvent BD+ and the provisions of the DMCA.

Since I purchase my movies legally, I personally couldn't care less if their codes get broken. Just makes it easier for me to back up the media I already bought.

I appreciate the response -- good information. But I still don't understand why apples had to solely indict HDDVD owners. BD owners are cheering the breaking of HDDVD copy protection and availability of Transformers.
There are likely a lot of BD owners who would be happy to see their format's copy protection broken. This issue is not unique to one side of the format war, both sides have their supporters and detractors of copy protection.

I personally don't cheer HD-DVD or Transformers getting copied, but here is how I see it, it comes down to specs again, HD-DVD 30GB BD 50GB, HD-DVD has 48.0 Mbit/s Max bitrate while BD has 48.0 Mbit/s Max bitrate, HD-DVD only has AACS while BD has AACS, BD+, and BD-ROM Mark all a means to stop piracy on various levels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats#Technical _Details

so I have to ask how a studio like Paramount after looking at the anti-piracy measures BD has, not to mention BD+ hasn't been crack so the content is safe (atleast for now) how they can sit there looking at HD-DVD as if they've chosen the winner, what I cheer on is the fact that BD is a superior format, and try as they might HD-DVD has shown that they fail to keep up to BD's standard thus you have TL51 coming to try to bridge that gap in space on the disc, but your still limited to lower max bitrate, and less levels of copy protection (Studio's like copy protection as that means less piracy).

Transformers DVD sold, what like 8.5 million copies, and DVD's have been cracked forever. Makes you wonder how much piracy actually cuts into profits. I really think managed copy is all that people really want, at least for me.

I appreciate the response -- good information. But I still don't understand why apples had to solely indict HDDVD owners. BD owners are cheering the breaking of HDDVD copy protection and availability of Transformers.
There are likely a lot of BD owners who would be happy to see their format's copy protection broken. This issue is not unique to one side of the format war, both sides have their supporters and detractors of copy protection.

It's not waht the owners want but what the studios want. They want copy protection of their material. If HD-DVD cannot offer this this they may to go to Blu-ray exclusively.

It's not waht the owners want but what the studios want. They want copy protection of their material. If HD-DVD cannot offer this this may say them to go to Blu-ray exclusively.

And when their copy protection has been broken, they can come back and be neutral again. :)

The guy who cracks BD+ will be a hero in many circles, and that alone is why a million fingers are clicking on a lot of keyboards as we speak.

Will it be cracked, yeah, too many are trying. Will it make an iota of difference in the format war? No, because DVD was cracked in 1999 and it still sells strongly.

What it might do is stop fox from releasing 25 year old movies at 40 bucks a pop.

No offense to fox, but that is just asking for it. Robocop isn't worth 40 bucks. I'd pay 15-20 tops.

Right, fair use is usually restricted to making legal backups.

Unless you have a disc-rot version of the Prestige or like to take screwdrivers to your Blu-ray movies, I'm pretty sure Durabis took way the excuse for making backups. Honestly, to make a Blu-ray skip you pretty much have to intentionally wreck it.

The guy who cracks BD+ will be a hero in many circles, and that alone is why a million fingers are clicking on a lot of keyboards as we speak.

Will it be cracked, yeah, too many are trying. Will it make an iota of difference in the format war? No, because DVD was cracked in 1999 and it still sells strongly.

The funny thing is that the way they gonna pass trough it will be really simple, they always miss something. Remember the CD that had copyprotection...

Iso I have to ask how a studio like Paramount after looking at the anti-piracy measures BD has, not to mention BD+ hasn't been crack so the content is safe (atleast for now) how they can sit there looking at HD-DVD as if they've chosen the winner...
Well, you don't have to go so far for your answer... Why not wonder why Sony/Disney/LG are not using BD+? I mean it is right in front of them. Right?

Makes you think, ha? ;) :)

Well, you don't have to go so far for your answer... Why not wonder why Sony/Disney/LG are not using BD+? I mean it is right in front of them. Right?

Makes you think, ha? ;) :)Makes you think, ha?Ah... makes you think what? I've alway had a problem following innuendo. I prefer directness and candor.

Ah... makes you think what? I've alway had a problem following innuendo. I prefer directness and candor.

I can help you ;)

If BD+ was such great thing for the studios, why doesnt every BD title from every BD exclusive studio use it?

There must be one reason why they prefer to leave their disc without BD+.

The guy who cracks BD+ will be a hero in many circles, and that alone is why a million fingers are clicking on a lot of keyboards as we speak.

Will it be cracked, yeah, too many are trying. Will it make an iota of difference in the format war? No, because DVD was cracked in 1999 and it still sells strongly.

What it might do is stop fox from releasing 25 year old movies at 40 bucks a pop.

No offense to fox, but that is just asking for it. Robocop isn't worth 40 bucks. I'd pay 15-20 tops.

there are those that call some one who finds a way to circumvent a way to stop people from stealing your hero? yikes! DVD has no competition the only thing it had as "competition" lasted roughly 6 months because it was sticking it to the customer but severely limiting what the customer could and couldn't do. in comparison the customer chose the less nasty format.

Oh and for your information Robocop is a MGM release not Fox...

I wouldn't have a problem with BD+ if it didn't force player firmware updates everytime they changed the scheme (in responsed to hackers). I still waiting for LG to develop the firmware fix for Fantastic 4: Silver surfer (and probably a few other Fox movies). I'm not exactly looking forward to the next time a studio feels a BD+ update is necessary because that will probably drive yet another firmware fix.

Looks like you may want to reconsider future purchases of Fox titles.;)

Oh and for your information Robocop is a MGM release not Fox...

Fox owns MGM titles including Robocop.

Fox owns MGM titles including Robocop.

I think distributes was the word you were looking for.

I personally don't cheer HD-DVD or Transformers getting copied, but here is how I see it, it comes down to specs again, HD-DVD 30GB BD 50GB, HD-DVD has 48.0 Mbit/s Max bitrate while BD has 48.0 Mbit/s Max bitrate, HD-DVD only has AACS while BD has AACS, BD+, and BD-ROM Mark all a means to stop piracy on various levels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats#Technical _Details

so I have to ask how a studio like Paramount after looking at the anti-piracy measures BD has, not to mention BD+ hasn't been crack so the content is safe (atleast for now) how they can sit there looking at HD-DVD as if they've chosen the winner, what I cheer on is the fact that BD is a superior format, and try as they might HD-DVD has shown that they fail to keep up to BD's standard thus you have TL51 coming to try to bridge that gap in space on the disc, but your still limited to lower max bitrate, and less levels of copy protection (Studio's like copy protection as that means less piracy).


If history has proven anything, it's that the ''superior'' format doesn't always win. Examples are Betamax, Sega Master System (superior to NES), Mattel Intellivision and ColecoVision (both superior to the Atari 2600), LaserDisc (superior to VHS). Now whether or not BluRay's superior specifications means anything in the real world is still debatable. IMO, Paramount made the right choice and if HDDVD manages to close the 2:1 software gap by January, don't ever expect them to return to BluRay!

If BD is going to use BD+ as a key differentiator in the format war, I believe this war isn't going to last much longer - wide spread use of BD+ = death of BD.

IMO, the fact that DVD was easy to rip was an important reason for its success. Sad to say, but true. If it is proven that HD DVD titles are more easily distributable via bootleg copies, the format will take off....JMHO.

So, it is better for BDA to keep pounding on the bit rate factor and give away bit rate meters for free rather than to tout the value of BD+. :)

Fox owns MGM titles including Robocop.

I thought I'd look up MGM, I love to learn new facts about this format war, I went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM where I saw that MGM was a subsidiary and it have a list of the owner and the % they own.

Owner
Providence Equity Partners (29%)
TPG Capital, L.P. (21%)
Sony (20%)
Comcast (20%)
DLJ Merchant Banking Partners (7%)
Quadrangle Group (3%)

I can't find fox, but the article did mention one thing about Fox... "20th Century Fox will be handling the international theatrical distribution and worldwide home video distribution of MGM titles, excepting those which Sony (Columbia/TriStar/Sony Pictures Classics) acts as majority partner."

Well, you don't have to go so far for your answer... Why not wonder why Sony/Disney/LG are not using BD+? I mean it is right in front of them. Right?

Makes you think, ha? ;) :)

It makes me think the Microsoft is getting scared that the studios will all choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD because of the superior copy protection. Did it ever occur to you that they needed to get the technology in place and have one studio try it before the others did? Then again it makes me think you may not have.:):D

It makes me think the Microsoft is getting scared that the studios will all choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD because of the superior copy protection. Did it ever occur to you that they needed to get the technology in place and have one studio try it before the others did? Then again it makes me think you may not have.:):D

Thinking way too hard. One studio has already dropped the format with the "superior copy protection".

For the Record: BD+ has NOT been Cracked!!
.

Great news. Now if they could somehow get all BD players to become 1.1 compliant, that would really be something. ;)

You really do cry a lot apple. Get over it. It will be cracked. BDROM is just too damn expensive - like everything else associated with sony.

I thought I'd look up MGM, I love to learn new facts about this format war, I went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM where I saw that MGM was a subsidiary and it have a list of the owner and the % they own.

Owner
Providence Equity Partners (29%)
TPG Capital, L.P. (21%)
Sony (20%)
Comcast (20%)
DLJ Merchant Banking Partners (7%)
Quadrangle Group (3%)

I can't find fox, but the article did mention one thing about Fox... "20th Century Fox will be handling the international theatrical distribution and worldwide home video distribution of MGM titles, excepting those which Sony (Columbia/TriStar/Sony Pictures Classics) acts as majority partner."

Not sure how everything worked out on MGM, but i heard was that Sony lost MGM titles to Fox. I Assumed then that Fox owned thoose titles.

It makes me think the Microsoft is getting scared that the studios will all choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD because of the superior copy protection.
Well, changing topics doesn't help with those of us who also can think on our own :).

There is a piece of data you don't have and it has nothing to do with the format war. This is why I wanted you to *think*, rather that throw misdirection like this.


Did it ever occur to you that they needed to get the technology in place and have one studio try it before the others did?
Why? BD was new last year. Would you have expected only one studio to support it for months before others did? Is this stuff that flakey? Oh, don't answer. :p

Then again it makes me think you may not have.:):D
Well, I have the luxury of being there at every point when this technology was proposed to be used in HD DVD and AACS. So if I could be forgiven, I have more data than you have here.

Remember nothing is for free. Nothing ;). If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…..

LOL!!! All this hubbub about something that will happen sooner or later. MKBv1 was bypassed in less than 6 months, MKBv2 in less than 1, MKBv3 before the disks hit the streets, and now MKBv4 was bypassed in less than 2 weeks. What makes anyone think that BD+ will be any different. I give it no more than 3 months due to the complicated nature of the protection but nothing more.

and now AACS MKBv4 was bypassed in less than 2 weeks. What makes anyone think that BD+ will be any different. I give it no more than 3 months due to the complicated nature of the protection but nothing more.I read today that just some new protection with MKBv4 individual titles have had their unique keys uncovered -- with no MKBv4 yet -- but likely very soon. Also read projections/estimates/swags that BD+ to be overcome no sooner than Thanksgiving and maybe it will take weeks longer than that. We shall see. Way too early to jump to conclusions.

I appreciate the response -- good information. But I still don't understand why apples had to solely indict HDDVD owners. BD owners are cheering the breaking of HDDVD copy protection and availability of Transformers.
There are likely a lot of BD owners who would be happy to see their format's copy protection broken. This issue is not unique to one side of the format war, both sides have their supporters and detractors of copy protection.

Here is the difference between BD fans cheering for Transformers being ripped, AACS threads of old, and what Apples was pointing out with Midnightwatchers thread: Midnightatchers thread was actually turning AVS forums into a platform for cracking the security scheme. In the AACS threads of old, there would be commentary as to what hackers had achieved, but it's not as if this site itself started compiling data and attack vectors - and that is a huge difference.

It's understandable that many members of the HD DVD fanbase - or whoever in general - would be eager to see BD+ fall. And I don't have a problem with their wanting that. But there *is* a problem when a site with the reputation of AVS turns into basically a semi-sanctioned anti-BD forum, complete with DRM cracking threads. What MidnightWatcher was doing is no less wrong than if there was some thread in the BD forums with a list of active torrent trackers.

I would think people would see the difference.

Not sure how everything worked out on MGM, but i heard was that Sony lost MGM titles to Fox. I Assumed then that Fox owned thoose titles.

Again, lost the distribution rights, the titles still belong to MGM.

Also read projections/estimates/swags that BD+ to be overcome no sooner than Thanksgiving and maybe it will take weeks longer than that. We shall see. Way too early to jump to conclusions.

The folks at Slysoft estimated 6-8 weeks to bypass BD+ but I am going to give them a little more time than that. I say by the end of Dec or early-to-mid Jan when more BD+ come out so they can test them all.

BD+ discs have been out for about 3 1/2 weeks now. I haven't checked for a few days but I don't believe there are yet any commerically sold software players that can play them all successfully.

It is almost starting to look like a race between whether the legal or illegal PC players will be first to support BD+.

- Tom

Some day you may have to hire a hacker to watch your legally purchased movies :)

Other than breaking the law if it is, why do you care if they crack BD+?
:confused:deez, would you care if you saw the house of someone you despise being broken into and his/her property being stolen? ..would you care if was a stranger's house? ..would you care if it was a friend's house? would you care if it was your house?

I would care in all of the above situations. I would care if Blu-ray videos would be hacked and I would care just as much if HD-DVD videos get hacked. Because it's just simply wrong.

deez, would you care if you saw the house of someone you despise being broken into and his/her property being stolen? ..would you care if was a stranger's house? ..would you care if it was a friend's house? would you care if it was your house?

I would care in all of the above situations. I would care if Blu-ray videos would be hacked and I would care just as much if HD-DVD videos get hacked. Because it's just simply wrong.

Your are comparing apples to oranges...my neighbor isn't trying to bend me over on software prices and limit me ,the honest software buying consumer, and my use of legally bought software. Also, if the studios and CE manufacturers were so concerned with illegal copying of their intellectual properties why do they continue to sell blank media and burners??

Profits thats why so I dont feel sorry for them...if it wasn't for piracy do you even think that you would pay $19.99 for a disc? You would pay a lot more......Why these companies continue to put the tools to copy in the hands of the consumers is beyond me. And dont tell me it is for making home movies or backing up data that is laughable...:D

And Whipper , If you were my neighbor and someone was robbing you I would care.....

I can help you ;)

If BD+ was such great thing for the studios, why doesnt every BD title from every BD exclusive studio use it?

There must be one reason why they prefer to leave their disc without BD+.Is that what Amir meant? That doesn't make any sense. That's like back in the 20th century when the first person in a neighborhood got a color television someone saying "hey, color televisions are no good, if they were everyone would have one". Swede, the first BD+ videos are just coming out. Once BD+ is proven, it is highly likely others will very quickly follow; just like the rest of the neighborhood eventually went to color TVs. Been shopping for a black and white television lately?

If BD is going to use BD+ as a key differentiator in the format war, I believe this war isn't going to last much longer - wide spread use of BD+ = death of BD.

IMO, the fact that DVD was easy to rip was an important reason for its success. Sad to say, but true. If it is proven that HD DVD titles are more easily distributable via bootleg copies, the format will take off....JMHO.

So, it is better for BDA to keep pounding on the bit rate factor and give away bit rate meters for free rather than to tout the value of BD+. :)If it is proven that HD DVD titles are more easily distributable via bootleg copies, the format will take off....JMHO.Dude, do you really believe this? Maybe more hardware players will be sold to corrupt people who only use ripped HD-DVDs, but why whould they buy legit HD-DVD videos when they can get them cheap from the community bootlegger?

I thought I'd look up MGM, I love to learn new facts about this format war, I went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM where I saw that MGM was a subsidiary and it have a list of the owner and the % they own.

Owner
Providence Equity Partners (29%)
TPG Capital, L.P. (21%)
Sony (20%)
Comcast (20%)
DLJ Merchant Banking Partners (7%)
Quadrangle Group (3%)

I can't find fox, but the article did mention one thing about Fox... "20th Century Fox will be handling the international theatrical distribution and worldwide home video distribution of MGM titles, excepting those which Sony (Columbia/TriStar/Sony Pictures Classics) acts as majority partner."

I could be mis-remembering things here but I believe (except for Sony minority ownership) MGM itself is format neutral and licenses its distribution rights for 2-3 years at a pop. Until maybe a year ago they were held by Sony, now Fox. But in another year or two it might equally well be an HD DVD company. I'm not exactly sure how that part of the business works but it would seem that in a couple years somebody like Sony, Fox, Universal, etc. could release most of the titles they were interested in and thus bid a bit less the next time around. If so you would think those MGM rights might keep changing hands every couple years.

- Tom

Well, changing topics doesn't help with those of us who also can think on our own :).

There is a piece of data you don't have and it has nothing to do with the format war. This is why I wanted you to *think*, rather that throw misdirection like this.



Why? BD was new last year. Would you have expected only one studio to support it for months before others did? Is this stuff that flakey? Oh, don't answer. :p


Well, I have the luxury of being there at every point when this technology was proposed to be used in HD DVD and AACS. So if I could be forgiven, I have more data than you have here.

Remember nothing is for free. Nothing ;). If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…..If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…My goodness, more innuendo. Come on Amir, what are you trying to say? Spit it out, use plain English. Plain honest speaking is held in high regard in some circles.

My goodness, more innuendo. Come on Amir, what are you trying to say? Spit it out, use plain English. Plain honest speaking is held in high regard in some circles.
I think he's been clear enough within the limits of what is safe for him to disclose considering his position. Since you can't or won't follow the bread crumbs he dropped for you, and your tone has become petulant, I suspect he will decline to offer more.

I think he's been clear enough within the limits of what is safe for him to disclose considering his position. Since you can't or won't follow the bread crumbs he dropped for you, and your tone has become petulant, I suspect he will decline to offer more.Well, read the below "bread crumbs" Amir dropped. And tell me where these bread crumbs lead you. To me, he's as clear as mud. He might as well have dropped a load of chicken entrails and said "here, look at this and think for yourself". IMHO his posting appears to want to lead folks to believe something which he doesn't want to come right out and say -- possibly because it's not true. So please tell me your interpretation of the high priest's bread crumbs.Well, changing topics doesn't help with those of us who also can think on our own .

There is a piece of data you don't have and it has nothing to do with the format war. This is why I wanted you to *think*, rather that throw misdirection like this.



Why? BD was new last year. Would you have expected only one studio to support it for months before others did? Is this stuff that flakey? Oh, don't answer.


Well, I have the luxury of being there at every point when this technology was proposed to be used in HD DVD and AACS. So if I could be forgiven, I have more data than you have here.

Remember nothing is for free. Nothing . If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…..

snip......

Remember nothing is for free. Nothing ;). If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…..

Let me ask some follow up questions. If you can answer, that would be great.

True or False?

1. BD+ consist of source code on the disc that is executed by a VM on the player?

2. That BD+ code is like an added piece of encryption that has to run as the disc is playing to decode content?

3. Something has to process all of that extra decryption that is going on?

4. That extra processing overhead may end up serving as a limiter that may not allow you to achieve as high a bandwidth as you could if it wasn't there?

5. Because there are many different players, you have to limit yourself to the performance of the weakest link player in the market?

report those posting illegaly obtained copyrighted material here:

BSA:
https://reporting.bsa.org/usa/home.aspx?pr=1&CMP=KNC-google&HBX_PK=BSA&HBX_OU=50

MPAA:
http://www.mpaa.org/piracy.asp

Sony:
https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/corporate/contact.asp?id=32

WTF? Are you employed by the MPAA or something? If not, I think you're the first person not employed by the RIAA or MPAA I've ever seen that actually supports DRM......guess there's a first for everything. I'm sure you've never ripped a CD or DVD, right? :rolleyes:

Piracy is wrong - period. But for consumers that purchase their content and want to use it for their own personal use as they see fit, DRM restricts those that legally acquire it.

In my case, I rip all my HD content to my server so I can watch stuff anywhere in my house with the click of a button. No discs to worry about damaging or getting lost and no stupid DRM that says I can't watch 1080p over a non-HDCP connection amongst other things. I also have every piece of media backed up electronically off-site in the event of a fire or theft or something.

I love AnyDVD HD, it lets me watch content how and when I want to watch it. It's inevitable BD+ will get cracked, but if it makes you feel better that all the people that buy the content and can't view it how they want without bypassing the DRM, then so be it.

Well, changing topics doesn't help with those of us who also can think on our own :).

There is a piece of data you don't have and it has nothing to do with the format war. This is why I wanted you to *think*, rather that throw misdirection like this.



Why? BD was new last year. Would you have expected only one studio to support it for months before others did? Is this stuff that flakey? Oh, don't answer. :p


Well, I have the luxury of being there at every point when this technology was proposed to be used in HD DVD and AACS. So if I could be forgiven, I have more data than you have here.

Remember nothing is for free. Nothing ;). If this hint doesn’t tell you anything, I am not sure what will…..

I feel a representative of Microsoft casting innuendo and "hints" about inadequacies of a competitor's product is unethical. If you have specific fact about something then say it, but please stop spreading rumors without supporting facts. It's nice to hide behind a shield and say I know something you don't know but it not helpful to your cause to do this. :)

Amir, you are very knowledgeable had have contributed much useful information on the AVS forum, so please do not do this kind of stuff. :(

I feel a representative of Microsoft casting innuendo and "hints" about inadequacies of a competitor's product is unethical.(
I didn't take his comments that way. Regardless, maybe he should have just come out and said Blu-ray will be dead within months.

Sony's VP Peter Dille said the same about HD-DVD here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14679

I haven't seen you getting excited over Peter's comments.

I didn't take his comments that way. Regardless, maybe he should have just come out and said Blu-ray will be dead within months.

Sony's VP Peter Dille said the same about HD-DVD here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14679

I haven't seen you getting excited over Peter's comments.


If he said this on this forum (instead of an interview) and was an active participant as Amir is, I would have said the same thing. On the insiders thread they limited insiders comments to only information about items relating to their company and deleted comments about competitors. I fully supported that policy.

This reminds me a bit about the AACS crack thread from last year that ran for so many months. I'm too lazy to search for it now but it was titled something like "AACS not so cracked after all!". And we all know how well that went. ;)

- Tom

LOL! :cool:

I am still laughing about that one!:D

Midnight also stated that there are no copies of the latest Fox titles available for download. We all know how that turned out as well! :p

I feel a representative of Microsoft casting innuendo and "hints" about inadequacies of a competitor's product is unethical.
Unethical? Competitor's product? BD+ was proposed to both DVD forum and AACS for evaluation. Both orgnizations include BD member companies as majority. As such, my views as one of the board members of each org, is not talking down competition let alone enethical. The technology was reviewed in due process and failed to get acceptance.

Now, do you want to venture a guess as motivation behind picking it for BD, when the very same members voted it down in another organization? How "ethical" does that seem to you?


If you have specific fact about something then say it, but please stop spreading rumors without supporting facts. It's nice to hide behind a shield and say I know something you don't know but it not helpful to your cause to do this. :)
Please put down your guns. This is not my battle anymore. My request was genuine in wanting you all to put aside the tired old format war arguments and think for a second what else could be at play. Surely that is what we want to use this forum, as opposed to throwing personal jabs at each other :).

By the way, I do the above all the time. Giving members some data and letting them have fun thinking it through.

Unethical? Competitor's product? BD+ was proposed to both DVD forum and AACS for evaluation. Both orgnizations include BD member companies as majority. As such, my views as one of the board members of each org, is not talking down competition let alone enethical. The technology was reviewed in due process and failed to get acceptance.

Now, do you want to venture a guess as motivation behind picking it for BD, when the very same members voted it down in another organization? How "ethical" does that seem to you?



Please put down your guns. This is not my battle anymore. My request was genuine in wanting you all to put aside the tired old format war arguments and think for a second what else could be at play. Surely that is what we want to use this forum, as opposed to throwing personal jabs at each other :).

By the way, I do the above all the time. Giving members some data and letting them have fun thinking it through. The technology was reviewed in due process and failed to get acceptance.Having a little remorse and regrets about voting it down for HD-DVD?

Now, do you want to venture a guess as motivation behind picking it for BD, when the very same members voted it down in another organization?Could it be they outsmarted/outmaneuvered the opposition by any chance?

How did you vote Amir?

Amir, since this is not your battle any more and since many reviewers have stated the quality of the latest Fantastic Four was excellent, do you believe this BD+ can offer an effective solution to protecting movies? Also, if proven effective could the HD-DVD supporters incorporate this technology (without degradation in quality) to replace their already cracked protection scheme?

How long before Studios charge me for re-playing the movie in my mind ? :)

Oh my - Deja Vu all over again, eh? ;)

Isn't it "funny", how just 7 days before the apparent expiration of Warner's Bluray contract on the 31st of October, that ALL of a SuDDEN, the AACS keys for HD DVD are "leaked" AGAIN into the wild.

My my my - what a co-inkidinks!

As most of you know, AACS has now assigned different keys to HD DVD and Bluray, so the leak of a key will now affect only ONE format.

Yet, if the key for HD DVD was truly "cracked" there is nothing to stop the Bluray AACS key from being cracked either - but YET, that hasn't happened. This has NOTHING to do with BD+, by the way, we are strictly talking about AACS here.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a BD operative inside the AACS :eek:

Oh my - Deja Vu all over again, eh? ;)

Isn't it "funny", how just 7 days before the apparent expiration of Warner's Bluray contract on the 31st of October, that ALL of a SuDDEN, the AACS keys for HD DVD are "leaked" AGAIN into the wild.

My my my - what a co-inkidinks!

As most of you know, AACS has now assigned different keys to HD DVD and Bluray, so the leak of a key will now affect only ONE format.

Yet, if the key for HD DVD was truly "cracked" there is nothing to stop the Bluray AACS key from being cracked either - but YET, that hasn't happened. This has NOTHING to do with BD+, by the way, we are strictly talking about AACS here.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a BD operative inside the AACS :eek:

So now AnyDVD is part of the BDA? Even tho they post on their forum all the time begging people to stop buying blu ray because it has too much DRM and is anti-consumer? (They are just scared of how powerful BD+ is and how much maintenance is involved to keep it cracked years from now). And the BD AACS MKB4 keys are cracked now too, WHOOPS, time to put on that tin foil hat and get to working on the next theory rdjam!

Oh my - Deja Vu all over again, eh? ;)

Isn't it "funny", how just 7 days before the apparent expiration of Warner's Bluray contract on the 31st of October, that ALL of a SuDDEN, the AACS keys for HD DVD are "leaked" AGAIN into the wild.

My my my - what a co-inkidinks!

As most of you know, AACS has now assigned different keys to HD DVD and Bluray, so the leak of a key will now affect only ONE format.

Yet, if the key for HD DVD was truly "cracked" there is nothing to stop the Bluray AACS key from being cracked either - but YET, that hasn't happened. This has NOTHING to do with BD+, by the way, we are strictly talking about AACS here.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a BD operative inside the AACS :eek:

Actually, "some" BD mkb v4 titles CAN be played on the non-HDCP hardware and backed up to the HDDs.

Titles with BD+ can not. Yet.

As of Amir statement asking people to think about why Sony etc. did not, does not and apparently will not implement BD+ on its titles - since when asking people to think is a prohibited argument?

The answer is very simple IMO.

BD+ is expensive to implement, produce and test.
And soon to be be totally useless exersize.

why is it so bad to be able to make a copy of your legal purchase's ??? i dont see why anyone would support RK+ and hope it wins.... i can only think these people dont have kids...

have you ever tried to take a dvd back and get another one because it is now scratched and doesnt play. dont tar everyone with the same brush please...

Oh my - Deja Vu all over again, eh? ;)

Isn't it "funny", how just 7 days before the apparent expiration of Warner's Bluray contract on the 31st of October, that ALL of a SuDDEN, the AACS keys for HD DVD are "leaked" AGAIN into the wild.

My my my - what a co-inkidinks!

As most of you know, AACS has now assigned different keys to HD DVD and Bluray, so the leak of a key will now affect only ONE format.

Yet, if the key for HD DVD was truly "cracked" there is nothing to stop the Bluray AACS key from being cracked either - but YET, that hasn't happened. This has NOTHING to do with BD+, by the way, we are strictly talking about AACS here.

I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a BD operative inside the AACS :eek:

This is the current list of MKBv4 that now are bypassed:

HD DVD:
Evan Almighty, US
A mighty heart, US
Transformers Disc 1+2, US
Wyatt Earp

Blu-ray:
28 Weeks Later, US
Fantastic Four 2, US (has BD+, so it won't play)
From Hell, US
Hostel, US
Hostel 2, US
Meet the Robinsons, US
Mr Brooks, US (BD+ so it won't play)
Reign over Me, US
Spiderman 1, US
Spiderman 2, US
Spiderman 3, US
Smallville Season 6
Reaping US

WAIT!!!! There's more BD titles than HD DVD titles. There goes your theory.

If you take Rdjam's conspiracy theories away from him, he'll have nothing left.

Actually, "some" BD mkb v4 titles CAN be played on the non-HDCP hardware and backed up to the HDDs.

Titles with BD+ can not. Yet.

As of Amir statement asking people to think about why Sony etc. did not, does not and apparently will not implement BD+ on its titles - since when asking people to think is a prohibited argument?

The answer is very simple IMO.

BD+ is expensive to implement, produce and test.
And soon to be be totally useless exersize.Sony etc..... will not implement BD+ on its titles So Amir gets you to believe this, with absolutely no proof or support of any kind, you blindly accept it as truth..and then your "thinking" leads you to the following conclusion as to the reason why Sony, etc arrived at this decision you inferred existed.

BD+ is expensive to implement, produce and test.
And soon to be be totally useless exersize

And you don't understand that Amir led you to come to this conclusion based upon essentially NOTHING? And you and others go down such a path WILLINGLY? And BLINDLY? And WITHOUT QUESTIONING any of it?

Maybe there really is something in the red coolaid.

And if Sony, Disney and/or other studios follow the path Fox is blazing, then Amir can say "I never told them that, that's not what I meant". I guess he's learned something from his "it's science fiction" days. Others here have not, sad to say.

So Amir gets you to believe this, with absolutely no proof or support of any kind, you blindly accept it as truth..and then your "thinking" leads you to the following conclusion as to the reason why Sony, etc arrived at this decision you inferred existed.



And you don't understand that Amir led you to come to this conclusion based upon essentially NOTHING? And you and others go down such a path WILLINGLY? And BLINDLY? And WITHOUT QUESTIONING any of it?

Maybe there really is something in the red coolaid.

And if Sony, Disney and/or other studios following the path Fox is blazing, then Amir can say "I never told them that, that's not what I meant". I guess he's learned something from his "it's science fiction" days. Others here have not, sad to say.

Oh mine.

I never realized I was totally manipulated by Amir.

Thank you for opening my eyes, now I've seen the light.

Duh...

He posted a screenshot from his HT set up and simply fabricated the story....at least he put a '?' at the thread's titles....that told me he was a bit sheepish about the info.
Your are so full of it I can smell you from here, lol. The shots were from this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12028291#post12028291). I hope a good apology from you is in order. (And I guess that thread should also be closed now too, huh?)

By the way folks, if posting screenshots is ILLEGAL, then AVS is nothing but a haven for ILLEGAL activity. It happens all the time around here. :rolleyes:

Sounds like there are a few, well, rotten "apples" it seems ...

By the way folks, if posting screenshots is ILLEGAL, then AVS is nothing but a haven for ILLEGAL activity. It happens all the time around here. :rolleyes:

MW, they are illegal only when self-imposed Politbureau here considers them illegal. :D

Anyone who believes that BD+ can't be cracked is deluding themselves. All BD+ achieves is to shoot up a massive target into the hacker community that just begs "CRACK ME!!"

...which they will.

Having a little remorse and regrets about voting it down for HD-DVD?

Could it be they outsmarted/outmaneuvered the opposition by any chance?

How did you vote Amir?
I know you were not genuinely asking me these questions but I will answer them anyway :).

Here is the situation. Imagine two builders constructing identical houses next to each other. They are identical in every respect. Builder A paints the house nice neutral colors that would please most everyone. Builder BD though, goes ahead and paints his house a wild and bright pink color. No sooner than he does that, Mary Kay Cosmetic salesperson comes by and expresses interest in the pink house. You are builder A. Do you think you made the wrong choice? Would you say the “right” choice is to paint houses pink?

So yes, we did the right thing. There was an open process for evaluating the technology from SDRC endorsed by said studio, and everyone agreed it was not effective but yet, proposed significant implementation cost. The fact that the decision was non-partisan and included major studios like Disney, Sony and Warner, made you feel good that the right call was being made. But the end result was that BDA was able to win Fox’s support by promising the said technology after the fact. At an ethical level, I do not appreciate what they did and how they went about doing it (a fact that I have conveyed in person to them multiple times). But it was clever business scheme in getting Fox’s support motivated by desperation than anything else at the time.

So do I think we came out ahead by not painting hour house pink and with it, alienate the people who don’t like “too much DRM?” Most days I think no, we did the right thing and had to stand up for the rights of the people who care. But there is that odd feeling once in a while that says the heck with principals and technical correctness, we should give them what they want to make them happy and get them to publish on HD DVD….

It may take a few months but BD+ will certainly be cracked. And then, like AACS it will be changed.

And then both will be cracked again.

What I'm worrying about is after the cracking cycle happens too easily a few times some executive dork at one of the studios is going to say this calls for desperate measures and starting putting in native code that bricks players, phones home, installs malware etc. By that time they will be suitably enraged and feel morally justified doing things no self respecting public computer software company would ever dream of.

They may do these things in the name of fighting "Jack the Ripper".

- Tom

I know you were not genuinely asking me these questions but I will answer them anyway :).

Here is the situation. Imagine two builders constructing identical houses next to each other. They are identical in every respect. Builder A paints the house nice neutral colors that would please most everyone. Builder BD though, goes ahead and paints his house a wild and bright pink color. No sooner than he does that, Mary Kay Cosmetic salesperson comes by and expresses interest in the pink house. You are builder A. Do you think you made the wrong choice? Would you say the “right” choice is to paint houses pink?

So yes, we did the right thing. There was an open process for evaluating the technology from SDRC endorsed by said studio, and everyone agreed it was not effective but yet, proposed significant implementation cost. The fact that the decision was non-partisan and included major studios like Disney, Sony and Warner, made you feel good that the right call was being made. But the end result was that BDA was able to win Fox’s support by promising the said technology after the fact. At an ethical level, I do not appreciate what they did and how they went about doing it (a fact that I have conveyed in person to them multiple times). But it was clever business scheme in getting Fox’s support motivated by desperation than anything else at the time.

So do I think we came out ahead by not painting hour house pink and with it, alienate the people who don’t like “too much DRM?” Most days I think no, we did the right thing and had to stand up for the rights of the people who care. But there is that odd feeling once in a while that says the heck with principals and technical correctness, we should give them what they want to make them happy and get them to publish on HD DVD….

Amir, whatever your thoughts on BD+, I would think that in a thread essentially talking about breaking DRM schemes and what role AVS should take in the nature of discussion allowed, you would be more discrete. Now as always - even with the words of "I'm not involved anymore" rolling so glibly off your tongue - you cannot help but take any opportunity to malign BD. And man but you love obtuse analogies. As an executive at a major technology firm, one would think that at least once in this thread you might say something pertaining to your oppositional views on the efforts to crack BD+, rather than seemingly... I don't want to say encouraging... but perhaps, enjoying the possibility?

It's a little unseemly for an executive, formerly MS' face for HD DVD, to be so cavalier in a thread about DRM schemes, piracy, and studio choices, don't you think?

It's a little unseemly for an executive, formerly MS' face for HD DVD, to be so cavalier in a thread about DRM schemes, piracy, and studio choices, don't you think?

As long it is "a little" unseemly, I am fine with it :D.

Remember, for better part of a decade, I managed the copy protection technologies for Microsoft. It has and continues to be my job to give studios what they need to publish their content in new formats, while at the same time, being honest about what level of protection we can provide in a platform like a PC. And, watching out for that fine line where we get accused of "too much DRM." Because last time I checked, there was no board member on DVD Forum, AACS or BDA from AVS Forum ;) :D.

I know you were not genuinely asking me these questions but I will answer them anyway :).

Here is the situation. Imagine two builders constructing identical houses next to each other. They are identical in every respect. Builder A paints the house nice neutral colors that would please most everyone. Builder BD though, goes ahead and paints his house a wild and bright pink color. No sooner than he does that, Mary Kay Cosmetic salesperson comes by and expresses interest in the pink house. You are builder A. Do you think you made the wrong choice? Would you say the “right” choice is to paint houses pink?

So yes, we did the right thing. There was an open process for evaluating the technology from SDRC endorsed by said studio, and everyone agreed it was not effective but yet, proposed significant implementation cost. The fact that the decision was non-partisan and included major studios like Disney, Sony and Warner, made you feel good that the right call was being made. But the end result was that BDA was able to win Fox’s support by promising the said technology after the fact. At an ethical level, I do not appreciate what they did and how they went about doing it (a fact that I have conveyed in person to them multiple times). But it was clever business scheme in getting Fox’s support motivated by desperation than anything else at the time.

So do I think we came out ahead by not painting hour house pink and with it, alienate the people who don’t like “too much DRM?” Most days I think no, we did the right thing and had to stand up for the rights of the people who care. But there is that odd feeling once in a while that says the heck with principals and technical correctness, we should give them what they want to make them happy and get them to publish on HD DVD….

I think if we are going to do the house idea, the houses would not be identical, let's look at the differences,
House HD-DVD: the house is smaller and has that "classic" look, the sales associate for the house sells it as "more yard space" the house has narrow doors (and from time to time they need to boil the door knob to get inside the house :P) but has a basic security alarm.

now let's look at the BD house:
this House is larger and the design has a fresh new look, the each room is sizable, the associate who sells this house described it as "spacious" the doorways are wider, the house costs a bit more but is cheaper by the square foot then the HD-DVD house, the house comes with the basic alarm system, and has a couple extra options to further increase security if the owners feel the need.

think I've accurately described the formats in terms of a house, it's more then just a paint job.

Thanks for the list - I happily retract my conspiracy theory ;)

Now I'll just sit back and wait for BD+ to fall...This is the current list of MKBv4 that now are bypassed:

HD DVD:
Evan Almighty, US
A mighty heart, US
Transformers Disc 1+2, US
Wyatt Earp

Blu-ray:
28 Weeks Later, US
Fantastic Four 2, US (has BD+, so it won't play)
From Hell, US
Hostel, US
Hostel 2, US
Meet the Robinsons, US
Mr Brooks, US (BD+ so it won't play)
Reign over Me, US
Spiderman 1, US
Spiderman 2, US
Spiderman 3, US
Smallville Season 6
Reaping US

WAIT!!!! There's more BD titles than HD DVD titles. There goes your theory.

As long it is "a little" unseemly, I am fine with it.

Remember, for better part of a decade, I managed the copy protection technologies for Microsoft. It has and continues to be my job to give studios what they need to publish their content in new formats, while at the same time, being honest about what level of protection we can provide in a platform like a PC. And, watching out for that fine line where we get accused of "too much DRM."

Oh absolutely Amir, I'm right there with you. I just think it might be a little scandalous all the same for sites like Dailytech and such to start publishing stories like, Former head of HD DVD for MS encouraging hacking efforts against BD. Especially being ex head of DRM at MS, don't you think? ;)

A little strange that even after my last post, your feelings on hacking studio DRM aren't clarified at all, save to say As long it is "a little" unseemly, I am fine with it... or wait, was that actually the clarification itself??? :eek:

now let's look at the BD house:
this House is larger and the design has a fresh new look, the each room is sizable, the associate who sells this house described it as "spacious" the doorways are wider, the house costs a bit more but is cheaper by the square foot then the HD-DVD house, the house comes with the basic alarm system, and has a couple extra options to further increase security if the owners feel the need. You forgot: The BD house has no internet access. The BD House only has one channel of TV and cannot do split screen PiP. The BD house only has an old-fashioned AM radio and is not required to handle some of the newer audio options such as Satellite radio, etc. The BD house costs twice as much as the HD DVD house...

Oh absolutely Amir, I'm right there with you. I just think it might be a little scandalous all the same for sites like Dailytech and such to start publishing stories like, Former head of HD DVD for MS encouraging hacking efforts against BD. Especially being ex head of DRM at MS, don't you think? ;)YOUR words, not Amir's, as you plainly acknowledge with your winky-wink.

A little strange that even after my last post, your feelings on hacking studio DRM aren't clarified at all, save to say As long it is "a little" unseemly, I am fine with it... or wait, was that actually the clarification itself??? :eek:I think he was just ignoring your insinuation. Your first post was basically "No fair! You can't post here because you said you were going to say any more mean things about BD!" - which he hadn't. I'd have ignored it too...

Oh absolutely Amir, I'm right there with you. I just think it might be a little scandalous all the same for sites like Dailytech and such to start publishing stories like, Former head of HD DVD for MS encouraging hacking efforts against BD. Especially being ex head of DRM at MS, don't you think? ;)
Oh, maybe I should go by an alias then from here on. What do you think? :D

A little strange that even after my last post, your feelings on hacking studio DRM aren't clarified at all, save to say As long it is "a little" unseemly, I am fine with it... or wait, was that actually the clarification itself? :eek:
The message was too obtuse, eh? :) OK, here is the simpler version. Your conclusions about my post were totally out of line but I just didn’t care enough to argue about it. But just in case you still think I gave out some state secrets, here is more data.

What I mentioned is matter of public record: that SPDC technology was reviewed and denied inclusion in DVD Forum. Here it is from the company itself: http://www.cryptography.com/newsevents/prel/20050415-AACS.html

“The DVD Forum has formed a subcommittee to study how to integrate SPDC with the upcoming HD DVD format.”

Seeing how SPDC (technology which became BD+) is not in HD DVD, I assume it is reasonable to assume it was not adopted by the technical group which was asked to review it.

So back to you now. Can you explain why the other BD studios are not using BD? Do you know who holds the patents to the technology? Do you know if there is a cost to deploying it on the content side?

You forgot: The BD house has no internet access. The BD House only has one channel of TV and cannot do split screen PiP. The BD house only has an old-fashioned AM radio and is not required to handle some of the newer audio options such as Satellite radio, etc. The BD house costs twice as much as the HD DVD house...

Not to worry. The builder is nearly done with a new model house next door. It has the PiP and a bunch of other great features that your house can't accommodate, but you could always sells yours and move. Better check on Internet access, I think that's going to be in his third house. He's pouring the foundation tomorrow on that one.

You forgot: The BD house has no internet access. The BD House only has one channel of TV and cannot do split screen PiP. The BD house only has an old-fashioned AM radio and is not required to handle some of the newer audio options such as Satellite radio, etc. The BD house costs twice as much as the HD DVD house...

there is no internet access for most of the BD houses some have the internet infrastructure already built in as well as multiple channels for the TV and Satellite radio all you need is the owner to change the channel and use the satellite radio (profile 1.1) and call the ISP (Profile 2.0). the BD house also has strong weather coating to protect it from physical damage.

To quote a cheesy line from an equally cheesy movie: "It is inevitable."

Suddenly the bigger house doesn't seem quite so appealing anymore. :p

the HD-DVD house builder has plans for a bigger house that still have the narrow doors, the owners of the previous HD-DVD house will likely have to buy this new house if they want to use this extra space as it's not likely that the owner of the HD-DVD house can just built extensions.

mean while the BD house with their fresh new design, is also looking at doubling their space, and it's looking like this house is capable of simply building extensions to the house. as I mentioned in the previous post the BD house have weather protection, to protect it from physical damage.

Snip............

*************************************************

I'm going to get serious now for a moment, because this is a serious topic. I hope you find my responses to you Amir as obnoxious as I find the posts I read from you. You're the only poster I do this with... the smilies... the insinuations... the bullsh*t. And the reason why is because that's your posting style to the tee; all-insinuation, all the time, and more smilies than exist elsewhere on the rest of the entire page in any thread you post in.

I really do feel that your being in this thread - with nothing to contribute except to take swipes at Blu-ray - is in extremely poor form. On a totally serious level, I can understand if you want BD+ cracked, or if you just want to relish in the spectacle in general; they are your opponent after all (even if in the past). But this is serious, and as someone as close to it as you are, it's totally unacceptable that you are here with as cavalier an attitude as you are; this is not the usual jokey subject around here. If it were a Sony exec being nonchalant about hackers attacking Windows, and what a terrible platform it is, I would be no less critical of the time and place; whatever your feelings on Blu-ray, supposedly you're on the same side in terms of the protection of intellectual property. This is a thread about piracy.

Do you or do you not support the active efforts to crack BD+? I of course know what your official answer has to be either way, but it's sad that however many posts into this thread, you have yet to come out against it in any way, even after being asked directly.

I missed your objections to some of the personal attacks I've seen Penton-Man post on Blu-Ray.com. Or maybe personal attacks are fair game?

If we understand BD+ correctly, each BD+title is protected in slightly different ways, and while cracking the first one will make it easier to crack a 2nd, there is still substantial work to do on each one.

Don't forget we have that endless soap opera of the satellite HDTV model -- weekly headaches of countermeasures breaking people's boxes requiring new one-eyed-bucaneering firmware upgrades with those funny cards that you write to using USB or UARTs. Sometimes, if the master hacker goes on vacation, people have to stare at black screens for a week before they get new fixes for their illegal activities.

There really is no uncrackable software based content protection, only one that makes it such a hassle that only the masochists stickaround and put up with all that pain.

It's just better to be honest here. (besides, satellite content is very low bitrate, they're not above playing tricks on the horizontal resolution, and squeezing things a few notches below acceptable in my taste).

I missed your objections to some of the personal attacks I've seen Penton-Man post on Blu-Ray.com. Or maybe personal attacks are fair game?

I don't read nor am I a member of Blu-ray.com. No, personal attacks are not fair game. If this were a thread about Windows hacking, and Penton-Man were here having a laugh at its expense... indeed, even encouraging the efforts... you wouldn't see me defend him, this I guarantee. So my question back to you is... why are you defending Amir?

If we understand BD+ correctly, each BD+title is protected in slightly different ways, and while cracking the first one will make it easier to crack a 2nd, there is still substantial work to do on each one.


Does the hardware used to play BD+ titles need to unprotect the movie in a slightly different way every time or is there a standard way to handle BD+ movies?

Hacking a protection system is never done on the media side. That's impossible because it's every changing. Hacking is done on the hardware side. They figure out how the hardware decodes the protection (which it has to or else you can't watch the movie) and then they emulate it.

A hack for BD+ will be available within 6 months since their first actual titles have no been released this month to the public. The hack will be based on emulating the way that a hardware bluray player handles the protection.

Since it's based on Java technology it would likely require a JavaVM running some sort of code.

Anything that is protected, can be unprotected. That's the reality of it all.

If anything, I would think that the lack of HD-DVD-R drives currently would be the single best protection mechanism.

the HD-DVD house builder has plans for a bigger house that still have the narrow doors, the owners of the previous HD-DVD house will likely have to buy this new house if they want to use this extra space as it's not likely that the owner of the HD-DVD house can just built extensions.

mean while the BD house with their fresh new design, is also looking at doubling their space, and it's looking like this house is capable of simply building extensions to the house. as I mentioned in the previous post the BD house have weather protection, to protect it from physical damage.

All this talk of architecture really makes me realize that for all the talk about putting in enough PVC pipes behind the walls of each room just to pull cables, no plan is so foolproof that you don't have to pull your hair out making compromises on how many holes should you allow to go across your beams before you worry about the integrity of your floor.

In the end, you're still stuck with only one place to put the TV, (the ceiling is also open at some places, but that's not practical.

When I had my house built, I had a 3D CAD model of where all the pipes for cables, all the HT stuff, and yes, what windows to use, and I still got a few things wrong.

I assume both HD DVD and BD houses have things that are wrong, just wrong in different ways.

I kinda like bigger windows and bigger rooms with taller ceilings. Bigger windows let more sunlight in, could require more expensive curtains, but in the end, if enough people use bigger windows to build their house, the prices of bigger curtains will come down. Besides, if given the choice, people do care more about bigger rooms with one fireplace instead of smaller ones with two fireplaces (one big, one small). Some people are happy with one fireplace on at a time.

The smaller fireplace takes up space and is in the way, reducing the speed of movement within the room.

I don't read nor am I a member of Blu-ray.com. No, personal attacks are not fair game. If this were a thread about Windows hacking, and Penton-Man were here having a laugh at its expense... indeed, even encouraging the efforts... you wouldn't see me defend him, this I guarantee. So my question back to you is... why are you defending Amir?

Precisely where was he actively "encouraging the efforts?" Why are you giving him such a hard time about the answers he provided, when you haven't bothered to make any attempt to answer his questions: :confused:

So back to you now. Can you explain why the other BD studios are not using BD? Do you know who holds the patents to the technology? Do you know if there is a cost to deploying it on the content side?

Precisely where was he actively "encouraging the efforts?" Why are you giving him such a hard time about the answers he provided, when you haven't bothered to make any attempt to answer his questions: :confused:

He didn't provide any answers... and that's why I'm giving him a hard time. If you can find the answer to my question that he provided - that question was if he supports the hacking of BD+ - please feel free to highlight it. Do you support the hacking of BD+? Let's assume that you do. Do you feel that Amir is against the hacking of BD+, based on his posts and participation in this thread? I don't, and I imagine no one else has picked up on any signals like that either. And that's where the problem lies. In a thread about piracy, a tech executive should seek to demure rather than post if he secretly wishes for the DRM to be cracked, rather than come in full bore and highlight on the side why said scheme sucks anyway. It is truly in poor form.

On the reverse, his question to me had nothing to do with anything; show me in the flow of our conversation where I try to discuss the merits of BD+? But it's simply his style to try to keep the conversation focused on the points he's trying to make, however detached from the actual posts he's responding to they might be.

I don't read nor am I a member of Blu-ray.com. No, personal attacks are not fair game. If this were a thread about Windows hacking, and Penton-Man were here having a laugh at its expense... indeed, even encouraging the efforts... you wouldn't see me defend him, this I guarantee. So my question back to you is... why are you defending Amir?

Actually it wasn't a defense of Amir. From time to time I see people post things that are hypocritical, and I like to question that. In your case, I apologize, since you don't participate there, you've had no opportunity to show that turnabout is fair play with respect to Penton-Man's personal attacks.

He didn't provide any answers... and that's why I'm giving him a hard time. If you can find the answer to my question that he provided, please feel free to highlight it.

On the reverse, his question to me had nothing to do with anything; show me in the flow of our conversation where I try to discuss the merits of BD+? But it's simply his style to try to keep the conversation focused on the points he's trying to make, however detached from the actual posts he's responding to they might be.

He clearly doesn't think much of BD+, which is his prerogative, no matter who he might be employed by. He also doesn't seem to believe it will ultimately prove effective, and he's hardly alone in that opinion. So.......?

Actually it wasn't a defense of Amir. From time to time I see people post things that are hypocritical, and I like to question that. In your case, I apologize, since you don't participate there, you've had no opportunity to show that turnabout is fair play with respect to Penton-Man's personal attacks.

Two companies at war typically have their most outspoken participants. There might be a good reason why that other website gets many participants. If we consider the movies sold so far, it might just be possible that there are more owners of BD players than HD players in N.A and the world, and for whatever reason this numerical majority of owners may feel that they were not treated fairly on another site. For whatever reason.

Speaking hypothetically, it could be that they feel the powers that control a particular web-site has allowed some company people to run free and tilt discussions in their favor. So they could be setting up the polar opposite, spouting equaly outrageous comments pro-blue as the tone of that other pro-red website.

We've seen this before, the red-country in eastern europe bans the blu-ambassador, and the blu-country bans the red-ambassador, and they fall short of nuking each other, but for all intents and purposes, can't stand each other's guts.

Just speaking hypothetically, and in the end, things do balance out.

He clearly doesn't think much of BD+, which is his prerogative, no matter who he might be employed by. He also doesn't seem to believe it will ultimately prove effective, and he's hardly alone in that opinion. So.......?

I don't have a problem with Amir not liking BD+, or expressing that feeling publicly on this forum. Neither would MS' PR department. I *do* have a problem with him being here in a thread about piracy and the efforts to break BD+, and gleefully lambasting it at every turn. And so would MS' PR department. If you don't understand, you don't understand, but believe me a line of tact and decorum has been crossed.

He didn't provide any answers... and that's why I'm giving him a hard time. If you can find the answer to my question that he provided - that question was if he supports the hacking of BD+ - please feel free to highlight it. Do you support the hacking of BD+? Let's assume that you do. Do you feel that Amir is against the hacking of BD+, based on his posts and participation in this thread? I don't, and I imagine no one else has picked up on any signals like that either. And that's where the problem lies. In a thread about piracy, a tech executive should seek to demure rather than post if he secretly wishes for the DRM to be cracked, rather than come in full bore and highlight on the side why said scheme sucks anyway. It is truly in poor form.

On the reverse, his question to me had nothing to do with anything; show me in the flow of our conversation where I try to discuss the merits of BD+? But it's simply his style to try to keep the conversation focused on the points he's trying to make, however detached from the actual posts he's responding to they might be.

So, the way I see it (well, from glancing through the thread) I guess the only problem you have with Amir (at least in this thread) is that he participated in the thread at all, which was about hacking (or non-hackability of) BD+. It seems to me that the only innuendo that Amir gave out seem to be about who's behind the BD+ licensing benefits, not about hacking of it (well, I could have missed it).

Anyway, personally, I don't think Amir or anyone has any responsibility to "respond" to you or anyone, at least not on this type of internet message board.

(I am out of this thread...)

Hong.

I don't have a problem with Amir not liking BD+, or expressing that feeling publicly on this forum. Neither would MS' PR department. I *do* have a problem with him being here in a thread about piracy and the efforts to break BD+, and gleefully lambasting it at every turn. And so would MS' PR department. If you don't understand, you don't understand, but believe me a line of tact and decorum has been crossed.

Oh Lord, that happens on all sides and with such regularity around here, I have a hard time getting too worked up about it. If what you say is true, and amirm isn't insulated by his retirement status, I don't suppose we'll see any further participation by him in this thread.

Oh Lord, that happens on all sides and with such regularity around here, I have a hard time getting too worked up about it. If what you say is true, and amirm isn't insulated by his retirement status, I don't suppose we'll see any further participation by him in this thread.

Retirement (position change) certainly has nothing to do with anything; in fact, it's all the more poor form because of his status as former HD DVD face for MS. To have been asked if he supported the hacking of BD+ and not have responded to that question... but yet to have responded in order to further lambast it instead... it really is poor form by an executive in a thread concerning illegal activity against an opposing business interest. Whatever the battle within the format war, Microsoft has an extremely strong public stance against software/IP piracy and hacking. What would be expected of any exec in a public setting like this - and not just by a Microsoft exec but by any representative of a company that has large IP interests in the modern era - would be a full denunciation of the efforts to crack the DRM if there was to be any thread participation to begin with.

Going back to the Windows example, would anyone be expected to stand for it if in a thread on software piracy, Paidgeek was asked if he supported piracy of Office 2007, and not once but twice he chose not to answer - and instead wrote about how it's not that good anyway? No, and it would likely have repercussions for him were his superiors to learn about it.

These days, folks don’t worry about that simply because people are able to play said copy without ever making an optical disc out of it….

Well isn´t Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (are they out?) burners expensive as well and do they actually playback burned HD media?. A thing that might gonna hurt HD-DVD is that a SL burnable BR disc can hold a complete (or almost) HD-DVD release. I think that the "good old" copying thing is gonna return with a vengeance and our usual suspects in the far east is gonna provide plenty of "content".

Retirement (position change) certainly has nothing to do with anything; in fact, it's all the more poor form because of his status as former HD DVD face for MS. To have been asked if he supported the hacking of BD+ and not have responded to that question... but yet to have responded in order to further lambast it instead... it really poor form by an executive in a thread concerning illegal activity against an opposing business interest. Whatever the battle within the format war, Microsoft has an extremely strong public stance against software/IP piracy and hacking. What would be expected of any exec in a public setting like this - and not just by a Microsoft exec but by any representative of a company that has large IP interests in the modern era - would be a full denunciation of the efforts to crack the DRM if there was to be any thread participation to begin with.

Going back to the Windows example, would anyone be expected to stand for it if in a thread on software piracy, Paidgeek was asked if he supported piracy of Office 2007, and not once but twice he chose not to answer - and instead wrote about how it's not that good anyway? No, and it would likely have repercussions for him were his superiors to learn about it.



1. Why exactly do you feel he(Amir) needs to answer your question again?
He didn't?...I don't care. HE doesn't like BD+, that's HIS opinion, right?
2. If he(Paidgeek) chose not to answer, then he chose not to answer. So What? As far as not being good anyway, that's just HIS opinion too, right?

What's the difference?

1. Why exactly do you feel he(Amir) needs to answer your question again?
He didn't....I don't care. HE doesn't like BD+, that's HIS opinion, right?
2. If he(Paidgeek) chose not to answer, then he chose not to answer. So What? As far as not being good anyway, that's just HIS opinion too, right?

What's the difference?

There's no difference, they're the same, and that's my point. You don't see the problem; I do. And again, so would Amir's superiors. My problem is not with Amir's opinions on BD+ - which he is free to express and has done frequently elsewhere - it is the fact that he is doing so in a thread related to IP piracy and the breaking of said scheme.

There's no difference, they're the same, and that's my point. You don't see the problem; I do. And again, so would Amir's PR department.

So what you saying basically is:

By Amir not responding to your question (against BD+ being cracked), he is actually saying that he thinks it's OK and hopes it gets cracked?

If that is what you are saying then I do understand what you mean, I just don't agree with you on it. I don't believe ANYONE has to answer any question they don't want to.

If that's not what you mean, then lets just call me a retard and let it go at that!


*edit* quit changing your post, I can't type that fast!

By Amir not responding to your question (against BD+ being cracked), he is actually saying that he thinks it's OK and hopes it gets cracked?

Yes... but I do think if Amir speaks to it at all he'll of course *have* to say that he's against it... to do otherwise would seriously set off a firestorm. And I don't mind that he personally wants it hacked; hell, whatever. But for the same reason it's beyond the pale for him to say publicly that he wants it hacked, is the reason why he's in unseemly territory to even be in this thread at all without saying he's against it as a matter of course... let alone when directly asked twice for his position on the matter. Mind you, all the while lambasting and ridiculing it.

I don't believe ANYONE has to answer any question they don't want to.

No, they don't. But life isn't always about what's possible, but what's proper. I said it best in one of my earlier posts on the matter: I don't think someone smoking weed should go to jail, but I don't want my cops selling drugs. Amir should have abstained from this thread entirely, but if he *had* to post, at some point there should have been a strong condemnation of the hacking effort thrown into the mix, because that's been a part of his actual job; to prevent piracy. Not to lambast DRM schemes in threads discussing their hacking.

xb you making a chicken out of feather here.

You cant asume that if someone doesnt answer your question, that they support piracy.

deez, would you care if you saw the house of someone you despise being broken into and his/her property being stolen? ..would you care if was a stranger's house? ..would you care if it was a friend's house? would you care if it was your house?



If my neighbor's furniture and television got copied, sub-atomic particle perfect, then no problem. Because copying isn't stealing. Theft is deprivation of property.

Because it's just simply wrong.

There're a few moral truisms, not killing, principle of universality etc. Hacking BD+ isn't one of them.

You cant asume that if someone doesnt answer your question, that they support piracy.

Firstly let's be honest; obviously Amir would love BD+ to buckle like so much thin aluminum. Do you yourself think otherwise? No, of course not. And that's not my problem with any of this.

I can assure you that the response MS corporate would want Amir to have quickly and readily given - indeed to have volunteered without prompting - would be a solid "piracy is wrong." And that's of course lame, and why he shouldn't be here in this thread in the first place. But it nevertheless is the proper thing for him to be doing here if he is active in this thread at all. If a State Department official is taking questions, and is asked "Would you support the assassination of x leader?," what I would expect is a "We don't condone assassination," regardless of what that person personally felt... or even indeed what was at play... because that is the official and legal position of the United States. And certainly not "Well, that person's a really bad person...," a complete non-answer. And what does that answer convey? And it is the same in the corporate world; there are lines you don't dance across in public. Microsoft's enemy in BD is their partner in other areas, and anti-piracy is one of those areas.

Firstly let's be honest; obviously Amir would love BD+ to buckle like so much thin aluminum. Do you yourself think otherwise? No, of course not. And that's not my problem with any of this.

I can assure you that the response MS corporate would want Amir to have quickly and readily given - indeed to have volunteered without prompting - would be a solid "piracy is wrong." And that's of course lame, and why he shouldn't be here in this thread in the first place. But it nevertheless is the proper thing for him to be doing here if he is active in this thread at all. If a State Department official is taking questions, and is asked "Would you support the assassination of x leader?," what I would expect is a "We don't condone assassination," regardless of what that person personally felt... or even indeed what was at play... and certainly not "Well, that person's a really bad person...," a complete non-answer. And it is the same in the corporate world; there are lines you don't dance across in public. Microsoft's enemy in BD is their partner in other areas, and anti-piracy is one of those areas.

Thats why its better to never comment, people have a tendency to missuse quotes.

Give it a rest...

Thats why its better to never comment, people have a tendency to missuse quotes.

Nobody could've misused this quote: "I'm against the hacking effort of BD+, or any media"

Easy

"I'm against the hacking effort of BD+..."

MS now support BD+ ;)

Firstly let's be honest; obviously Amir would love BD+ to buckle like so much thin aluminum. Do you yourself think otherwise? No, of course not. And that's not my problem with any of this.
So all along you knew my answer and were hiding it? :p.

I didn't answer you because you came after me with guns blazing and frankly these days, I don't care enough to be baited this way into a response. So I *chose* to not answer your question. Not that the answer is hard one way or the other. And you know what, it felt pretty good to say, “I don’t care how bad you want the answer.” :)

So that you can sleep easy :), here it is anyway. I do not wish BD+ to be breached anymore than AACS to be breached. However, just as we designed AACS to be repaired after such attacks, I expect the same to happen to BD+. Years of defending our copy protection technology tells me that both will get breached. So the question is NOT whether BD+ is the savior of next gen copy protection. It is not and will not be able to play that role. Best proof of this is that BD+ cannot be used without AACS. Think about that for a moment before hitting the quote button!

And when the ultimate breach does happen, we might have a mess on our hands on who to blame: AACS or BD+ or both. On that day, with my Microsoft hat on, we will have lots of grief to deal with logistically.

Now that I have answered your question, can you take a shot at answering mine? Keep in mind that if you do not, I am going to ignore your follow up posts just the same :).

I don't have a problem with Amir not liking BD+, or expressing that feeling publicly on this forum. Neither would MS' PR department. I *do* have a problem with him being here in a thread about piracy and the efforts to break BD+, and gleefully lambasting it at every turn. And so would MS' PR department. If you don't understand, you don't understand, but believe me a line of tact and decorum has been crossed.
I like him to post here, it is everyone's right to express what he can contribute to a discussion. Some of Amir's posts at least made me think of some details which would otherwise remain in the realms of speculation and FUD. If you don't like what he has to say, you are free to not participate.

A number of off topic posts have been removed.

Does it really matter if BD+ is cracked or not?

One can download every BD movie as easily as one can download every HD movie.

The vast number of torrents are horrid cams of new releases. The kind where people stand up and you see their silhouette, coughs etc: The democraphic for these are so far from the democraphic for HDM that it's not funny.

The other threat is knockoffs, at 3 bucks a disc. One day that might be a threat, but not now. Disc media is too expensive, the time to burn too long.

Besides, that market has hurt blockbuster more than anyone, simply because the people who buy these discs and the cheap inkjet label, watch once and toss. It is a substitute for rental.

The real danger is IF your market decide that the knock off is good enough. I define your market as the people who generally buy your item because they want the quality etc: That to me is dangerous, because these people are willing to buy your product, they're not some starving student who simply lacks funds.

The best weapon against piracy will always be fair pricing. Blockbuster are getting killed by netflix (price advantage is huge), netflix better adapt or it will get killed by cheaper VOD.

If you try to get away with charging 40 bucks a disc there are a lot of people who will be tempted by a 15 buck knock off. If you charge 25 bucks a disc, the market for piracy will shrink.

I'm assuming the movie is a buy item, as well. Not a turd.

This is the current list of MKBv4 that now are bypassed:

HD DVD:
Evan Almighty, US
A mighty heart, US
Transformers Disc 1+2, US
Wyatt Earp

Blu-ray:
28 Weeks Later, US
Fantastic Four 2, US (has BD+, so it won't play)
From Hell, US
Hostel, US
Hostel 2, US
Meet the Robinsons, US
Mr Brooks, US (BD+ so it won't play)
Reign over Me, US
Spiderman 1, US
Spiderman 2, US
Spiderman 3, US
Smallville Season 6
Reaping US

WAIT!!!! There's more BD titles than HD DVD titles. There goes your theory.

Where did you get your information? The SlySoft forum still claims all Fox releases are unrippable. You're claiming 28 Weeks Later and From Hell have been "bypassed". Does that mean they can be ripped? Don't both of those titles use BD+?. Their forum lists 16 Blu-Rays that won't rip and four HD-DVDs.

The sole BD+ "Patent Holder" (at least from a contractual licensing perspective) is Cryptography Research, Inc.

They grant the BD+ Founders an exclusive commitment to license their Essential Patents, covenants, date their daughter, ipso facto, E Pluribus Unum, Agricola est Poeta, blah blah blah.

Basically, Cryptography Research, Panasonic Intellectual Property Corporation of America, Sony Corporation and Twentieth Century Fox BD+ LLC--the latter three the BD+ Founders--all make bank from the content-focused use of BD+ (e.g., Eligible Content Participant, Eligible Code Developer, etc,), and a little coin from the hardware-focused use of BD+ (e.g., System Adopter). On the content-focused side, I'm pretty sure Twentieth Century Fox doesn't write checks to themselves.

Outside of the content-focused usage fees, there are some other things to keep people away.

The BD+ licenses set artifically high revenue conditions for entities to qualify to be involved. For example, to be an Eligible Code Developer (ECD), the peeps responsible for writing BD+ Content Code, you have to show proof of a Dr. Evil worthy US$1,000,000,000 in revenue for the prior three years to your application. And you have to be nominated by at least one Eligible Content Participant (ECP). Kind of like joining an expensive country club. Since there's only one ECP on the books right now, they determine who gets to be an ECD (note that an ECP can also be an ECD). Go figure.

There's a lot of logistical overhead getting BD+ Content Code onto a disc...outside of the actual KIC costs, there's code certification, validation, optional testing at a DPTC, etc. (I guess Fox tried to save some money on that last one). There's also a terrible contractual obligation to protect, maintain, escrow, etc.

Even tabling all the Soviet Union logistics, although I don't know the exact dollar figure an ECP pays to get BD+ Content Code on a disc, I'm going to guess that it's high enough to keep ECP-Wannabes-That-Would-Actually-Have-to-Pay (ECPWTWAHTP) on the sidelines.

Amir, whatever your thoughts on BD+, I would think that in a thread essentially talking about breaking DRM schemes and what role AVS should take in the nature of discussion allowed, you would be more discrete. Now as always - even with the words of "I'm not involved anymore" rolling so glibly off your tongue - you cannot help but take any opportunity to malign BD. And man but you love obtuse analogies. As an executive at a major technology firm, one would think that at least once in this thread you might say something pertaining to your oppositional views on the efforts to crack BD+, rather than seemingly... I don't want to say encouraging... but perhaps, enjoying the possibility?

It's a little unseemly for an executive, formerly MS' face for HD DVD, to be so cavalier in a thread about DRM schemes, piracy, and studio choices, don't you think?

Microsoft strongly supports HD DVD, partially because BD+ is less suitable for highdef disc PC use media connectivity. And if BD+ is not cracked then eventually HD DVD WILL FAIL as studios move to a format with more functional protection. So while I can see your outrage I'm not sure why you are so surprised that Amir may be less than strongly condemning these inevitable cracking attempts.

Let me first state strongly I have no insider information here but it does seem to me Microsoft has a very strong economic incentive to see or even help BD+ get cracked at the earliest possible opportunity.

Of course as a large and reputable public company they can't really help that along much and of course I'm sure Amir was not publicly stating support for the crackers. But it is easy to imagine Microsoft top executives rooting for it behind the scenes. ;)

- Tom

Even if BD+ costs a bit more it will more than pay for itself if it can help prevent illegal copies. Amir, you still have not answered my question - "since this is not your battle any more and since many reviewers have stated the quality of the latest Fantastic Four was excellent, do you believe this BD+ can offer an effective solution to protecting movies? Also, if proven effective could the HD-DVD supporters incorporate this technology (without degradation in quality) to replace their already cracked protection scheme?"

the HD-DVD house builder has plans for a bigger house that still have the narrow doors, the owners of the previous HD-DVD house will likely have to buy this new house if they want to use this extra space as it's not likely that the owner of the HD-DVD house can just built extensions.

And goodluck to the HD-DVD owners trying to unload their old house.

mean while the BD house with their fresh new design, is also looking at doubling their space, and it's looking like this house is capable of simply building extensions to the house. as I mentioned in the previous post the BD house have weather protection, to protect it from physical damageAnd the magical thing is that the BD house will be using "hidden" internal space that they didn't know about when they bought it -- no need to increase the external size of the house. Of course, some owners of BD houses will be suspicious and say "how much will this cost me". They'll be stunned to learn (and maybe in just a little disbelief) that it will only cost them the time it will take for them to do a firmware update. They invest that time (for me it's been typically 10 or 15 minutes of mostly "wait" time) and happily discover that their internal space in their house has doubled with "false walls" having dissappeared and the new space is furnished.

Even if BD+ costs a bit more it will more than pay for itself if it can help prevent illegal copies.
Hey, you said something useful! :) So the question remains: do other BD companies then think it doesn't do enough to safeguard their content as to offset the extra cost since they don't use it?

Once more, the biggest test of BD+ usefulness is whether other BDA studios use it. As long as they do not, then the numbers are on our side. Indeed, out of 7 major US studios, only 1 is using BD+. How come? You all are a fan of counting studios in each camp, so how come no tally is being taken here?


Amir, you still have not answered my question - "since this is not your battle any more and since many reviewers have stated the quality of the latest Fantastic Four was excellent, do you believe this BD+ can offer an effective solution to protecting movies?
I don't know why the picture quality bit is in there. The issue with firmware and BD+ caused enough negative PR for BDA which I am sure many now wish they had never used BD+ on that title when they did.

As to meat of your question, that is like asking because the first four HD DVD titles beat the first three BD titles in picture quality and used AACS, that must mean that "AACS can offer an effective solution to protecting movies." I let you answer that question if it makes more sense to you than it did to me :).

Also, if proven effective could the HD-DVD supporters incorporate this technology (without degradation in quality) to replace their already cracked protection scheme?"
The key assumption in this question is wrong :). AACS is a required pre-condition for deployment of BD+. Discs cannot use BD+ without AACS. So there is no condition under which, AACS remains broken and stays that way. Any deployment of AACS which gets breached, must, by contract, be remedied or licensee loses the ability to use AACS and with it, ability to play any BD discs.

And again keep in mind that other studios are not using BD+. So they are going to demand that AACS continues to serve the proper purpose for them. With both Disney and Sony being on AACS board, it would not look too good for their respective companies if they can't help make this happen.

Finally, once more, “quality” as nothing to do with this technology. Neither AACS or BD+ do anything to improve or degrade picture quality (putting aside output protection stipulations for things like analog).

So that you can sleep easy :), here it is anyway. I do not wish BD+ to be breached anymore than AACS to be breached. However, just as we designed AACS to be repaired after such attacks, I expect the same to happen to BD+. Years of defending our copy protection technology tells me that both will get breached. So the question is NOT whether BD+ is the savior of next gen copy protection. It is not and will not be able to play that role. Best proof of this is that BD+ cannot be used without AACS. Think about that for a moment before hitting the quote button!

Ah finally, the official line.

Now that I have answered your question, can you take a shot at answering mine? Keep in mind that if you do not, I am going to ignore your follow up posts just the same :).

Sure no problem - this post here I think encapsulates well my thoughts;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9320579#post9320579

And a great thread overall I might add for those that haven't read it - probably the best single discussion of AACS/BD+/Rom-Mark this board has had.

It's funny to note that in fact the very things I was writing back then are the things that have come to pass; AACS was broken, and now BD+ is being put into play. As yet, it itself is unbroken, and since the scheme can be as fine-grained as a per-pressing basis, now that it is in play it has the opportunity to grant the studios faster response times title per title as the unique encryption schemes eventually fail. BD+ is a target in the short-term; extremely tedious for hackers in the longterm.

Obviously the "door" of AACS you felt so confident in has been kicked wide open, and will never be closed again. So the entire premise of your old complaints against it have faded away; similar to how our search for WMD in Iraq slowly became about freedom, now that your previous premises against BD+ are all for naught, your focus is on "MS isn't as big and mean a DRM baddie as the BDA." Looks like the windows do provide some defense when the door is kicked down.

Not to mention ROM-Mark, a true nicety that in a world where you feel "people don't even need to burn their media to watch it," nevertheless provides an extra layer of protection in terms of reducing scale for a format that would seek to eventually make it it's way to the streets of New York; a nice tracer feature all the same for studios seeking to curb mass piracy/replication efforts.

Of course that is all discussed in that thread as well.

Where did you get your information? The SlySoft forum still claims all Fox releases are unrippable. You're claiming 28 Weeks Later and From Hell have been "bypassed". Does that mean they can be ripped? Don't both of those titles use BD+?. Their forum lists 16 Blu-Rays that won't rip and four HD-DVDs.

The AACS has been bypassed but the BD+ won't allow playback. From what I can read in James' posts, Slysoft has been able to get passed the MKBv4 AACS on these Fox titles but BD+ is their next step. Even the new version of AnyDVD HD has a warining that BD+ is not supported at this time.

Example:

Media is AACS protected!
Media is BD+ protected!
BD+ is not yet supported, sorry!
ERROR processing Blu-Ray disc!

So yes, the MKBv4 on those titles has been bypassed. But the BD+ has not and you won't be able to play/rip them.

Fred, you use circular logic to answer questions which means you never really answer a question.:)

paidgeek stated they will begin using BD+ in 2008, their release schedule is too hectic for Q4 to try and push it through now i'd imagine. BD+ is weeks old and still early, i would give it time before asking why others havent adopted it, especially when fox personally went through the work to get it working on discs.

Sure no problem - this post here I think encapsulates well my thoughts;
Thank you for your thoughts. Clearly the industry out there is divided over virtues of BD+ so having you with a different view than mine is perfectly fine and normal. My perspective as someone who has tried for years to keep these systems from being breached no doubt, is different than where you come from.

I am left wondering what the answer to my question was though. Why are the other BD studios not using BD+?

paidgeek stated they will begin using BD+ in 2008, their release schedule is too hectic for Q4 to try and push it through now i'd imagine. BD+ is weeks old and still early, i would give it time before asking why others havent adopted it, especially when fox personally went through the work to get it working on discs.

Thanks for the explanation. But that is very close to Sony saying they are very busy with DVD releases this year, so they will get around to publishing in BD next year. When the companies who design this stuff don't use it, it sends a very strange signal to folks....

And by the way, the response I saw from him was not anywhere as committal. It was something like they will possibly consider using it in the future. Not that every title will have it come next year.

But assuming you are right, what is the general feeling in BD community regarding Sony using BD+ on all the titles? Maybe a new poll is in order? :p

So all along you knew my answer and were hiding it? :p.

I didn't answer you because you came after me with guns blazing and frankly these days, I don't care enough to be baited this way into a response. So I *chose* to not answer your question. Not that the answer is hard one way or the other. And you know what, it felt pretty good to say, “I don’t care how bad you want the answer.” :)

So that you can sleep easy :), here it is anyway. I do not wish BD+ to be breached anymore than AACS to be breached. However, just as we designed AACS to be repaired after such attacks, I expect the same to happen to BD+. Years of defending our copy protection technology tells me that both will get breached. So the question is NOT whether BD+ is the savior of next gen copy protection. It is not and will not be able to play that role. Best proof of this is that BD+ cannot be used without AACS. Think about that for a moment before hitting the quote button!

And when the ultimate breach does happen, we might have a mess on our hands on who to blame: AACS or BD+ or both. On that day, with my Microsoft hat on, we will have lots of grief to deal with logistically.

Amir, the below quote is from post # 90 above. Of all the videos listed below, tell me which are the most likely to NOT have bootleg copies currently being sold in the black market? Well, to make it easier on you, maybe just give me the top two most likely not to have copies. Thanking you in advance for the clear, non ambiguous answer you'll be eager to provide. This is the current list of MKBv4 that now are bypassed:

HD DVD:
Evan Almighty, US
A mighty heart, US
Transformers Disc 1+2, US
Wyatt Earp

Blu-ray:
28 Weeks Later, US
Fantastic Four 2, US (has BD+, so it won't play)
From Hell, US
Hostel, US
Hostel 2, US
Meet the Robinsons, US
Mr Brooks, US (BD+ so it won't play)
Reign over Me, US
Spiderman 1, US
Spiderman 2, US
Spiderman 3, US
Smallville Season 6
Reaping US

WAIT!!!! There's more BD titles than HD DVD titles. There goes your theory.

But assuming you are right, what is the general feeling in BD community regarding Sony using BD+ on all the titles? Maybe a new poll is in order? :p

Since i pay for my movies and they've all worked on my PS3 (including the Fox BD+ titles), i have no objection what so ever. Unless you are one of those Filthy pirates, having BD+ should make 0 difference to your decision on the format. In fact, if BD+ is what it takes to get studios to drop HD DVD and join Blu-Ray, i will champion BD+ for years to come.

Amir, the below quote is from post # 92 above. Of all the videos listed below, tell me which are the most likely to NOT have bootleg copies currently being sold in the black market? Well, to make it easier on you, maybe just give me the top two most likely not to have copies.
I can't. That is for AACS to analyze and report. Licensees do not take kindly to quick determinations like this. There is a due process which must be followed first. And even after that, it would be AACS collectively standing by such determination, not me or Microsoft.

Thanking you in advance for the clear, non ambiguous answer you'll be eager to provide.
Thank you so much in return for the kind language in asking this question. AVS Forum would sure have a friendly atmosphere if we all did that :).

Fred.

Amir, I've just now caught up in the thread. I do have to commend you. Your posts have more substance now than some earlier ones. Whether it's because you have a little more time now because we're deeper into the weekend, or some other reason, kudos to you.

Hey, you said something useful! :) So the question remains: do other BD companies then think it doesn't do enough to safeguard their content as to offset the extra cost since they don't use it?

Or maybe the need for a "super protection" just isn´t there right now or isn´t planned. And why not let Fox run the trial test while the others concentrate on their planned releases?

In regards to AACS is there anything that can be done now to improve the protection or will it be a constant cat and mouse play from now on?

But assuming you are right, what is the general feeling in BD community regarding Sony using BD+ on all the titles? Maybe a new poll is in order? :p

I don´t care as long as the movies play, and yeah i will accept a "upgrade" if needed to play back the disc, until the dust settles and there are millions of players out there with millions of customer support calls i think the studios will attempt to "fix" their keys. But at some point they will fold and we will have HD-Shrink and HD/BD to PSP tools.

The only thing that annoys me is regional encoding but the EU is getting tougher on imports so even that isn´t that much a concern for me anymore.. :-(

Unless you are one of those Filthy pirates, having BD+ should make 0 difference to your decision on the format.I'm not disagreeing with you, but it does bear repeating that major concerns centering around BD+ have to do with what it's *really* capable of...certain BDA mouthpieces have flat out lied to the public and the press about the limits of BD+, painting it as harmless in all cases for "law-abiding" people. The BDA and BD+ Technologies, LLC have put up some tremendous procedural and legal safeguards, but they had to, since we're talking about a technology that carries the capability to brick a player merely from inserting a disc. The fact that BD+ licensees are only allowed to have 3 authorized people at any given time with key access (i.e., only 3 people at Fox know the secret) says quite a bit about what can happen if keys fell into the wrong hands. I'd hate to see what a pissed off ex-KIC employee teaming up with a rogue cracker could do...

Again, the concern is 99% academic, because I don't really think that anyone is going to successfully use the "bad" parts of BD+ (e.g., run Native Code), even if they bypass/crack the protection side. Still, it does get interesting when you realize that the BDA forced BD+ Technologies, LLC to create tiered degrees of "how aggressive" BD+ can get based on device types...for example, in game consoles, BD+ is not allowed to run Native Code (that "right" is reserved for stand-alones). Apparently, Sony is so confident in BD+ that they fought to have the PS3 excluded from the worst things it can do. Go figure...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it does bear repeating that major concerns centering around BD+ have to do with what it's *really* capable of...certain BDA mouthpieces have flat out lied to the public and the press about the limits of BD+, painting it as harmless in all cases for "law-abiding" people. The BDA and BD+ Technologies, LLC have put up some tremendous procedural and legal safeguards, but they had to, since we're talking about a technology that carries the capability to brick a player merely from inserting a disc. The fact that BD+ licensees are only allowed to have 3 authorized people at any given time with key access (i.e., only 3 people at Fox know the secret) says quite a bit about what can happen if keys fell into the wrong hands. I'd hate to see what a pissed off ex-KIC employee teaming up with a rogue cracker could do...

Again, the concern is 99% academic, because I don't really think that anyone is going to successfully use the "bad" parts of BD+ (e.g., run Native Code), even if they bypass/crack the protection side. Still, it does get interesting when you realize that the BDA forced BD+ Technologies, LLC to create tiered degrees of "how aggressive" BD+ can get based on device types...for example, in game consoles, BD+ is not allowed to run Native Code (that "right" is reserved for stand-alones). Apparently, Sony is so confident in BD+ that they fought to have the PS3 excluded from the worst things it can do. Go figure...
Does that also mean that advanced counter-measures do not exist for the PC platform?

I think if we are going to do the house idea, the houses would not be identical, let's look at the differences,
House HD-DVD: the house is smaller and has that "classic" look, the sales associate for the house sells it as "more yard space" the house has narrow doors (and from time to time they need to boil the door knob to get inside the house :P) but has a basic security alarm.

now let's look at the BD house:
this House is larger and the design has a fresh new look, the each room is sizable, the associate who sells this house described it as "spacious" the doorways are wider, the house costs a bit more but is cheaper by the square foot then the HD-DVD house, the house comes with the basic alarm system, and has a couple extra options to further increase security if the owners feel the need.

think I've accurately described the formats in terms of a house, it's more then just a paint job.

First; I have both HD-DVD and BR . . . and love the PQ and AQ on both.

That said; I also love FAIRNESS and BALANCE.

So let me parse and balance your house analogy

-- the BD house advertises more square footage and a premium tile
roof . . . but all the rooms and the roof won't be complete when you
buy and move into the house . . . and you may have to sell the house and buy another to get all the promised features.

-- the BD house advertises it can heat all winter on "a single tank of oil"
. . . . and said tank turns out to have to be twice as large as the HD house
which has a more efficient furnace . . . and THEN the aforementioned
twice as large BD tank is on backorder and the HD house owner is enjoying the warmth while the BD house owner waits for the tank to be delivered.

and blah blah blah

Gee, this could become as much fun as the ADDICTED TO AVS thread


-30-

Too many metaphors. My brain hurts. :(

- Tom

Since i pay for my movies and they've all worked on my PS3 (including the Fox BD+ titles), i have no objection what so ever. Unless you are one of those Filthy pirates, having BD+ should make 0 difference to your decision on the format. In fact, if BD+ is what it takes to get studios to drop HD DVD and join Blu-Ray, i will champion BD+ for years to come.

So what you're saying is that as long as your preferred format wins, you couldn't care less about the rights on consumers. The right of consumers to make a legitmate backup of their investment, or to store all their movies on a server for convenience.

So what you're saying is that as long as your preferred format wins, you couldn't care less about the rights on consumers. The right of consumers to make a legitmate backup of their investment, or to store all their movies on a server for convenience.

When you purchase a movie in HD, you are purchasing the movie on the disc, not the movie on the disc + the movie on your ipod + the movie on your pc + the movie on your phone, etc etc. Sorry to hear that you think piracy can be legitimate.

When you purchase a movie in HD, you are purchasing the movie on the disc, not the movie on the disc + the movie on your ipod + the movie on your pc + the movie on your phone, etc etc. Sorry to hear that you think piracy can be legitimate.

Be honest. You've never transferred a song from a CD you own to your ipod or other MP3 player?

The general public has not been paying attention to the restrictive laws (DMCA) that have been put in place recently regarding content control. As time goes on and technology evolves there will be ground swell of negative public sentiment against these laws, unless of course content distributors get smart and loosen up a little.

Since i pay for my movies and they've all worked on my PS3 (including the Fox BD+ titles), i have no objection what so ever. Unless you are one of those Filthy pirates, having BD+ should make 0 difference to your decision on the format. In fact, if BD+ is what it takes to get studios to drop HD DVD and join Blu-Ray, i will champion BD+ for years to come.

So based on what you said, then those unfortunate Samsung and LG standalone owners who had issues not playing Fox titles due to having issues with BD+ are "filthy pirates"? :rolleyes:

Not everyone uses a PS3 as their BD player of choice and just because PS3 owners don't have issues playing their disks, while others have doesn't mean there is NO issue with BD and BD+.

Something that's been lingering through my mind as of late, since it's been mentioned that after BD+ gets "cracked" that all is needed is new coding or system of some sort that correlates with BD+. Now I got thinking, if BD+ from the get go had issues like not playing the disks, when changing to these new "systems" would evidently cause even more problems with BD stand alones. It's just a theory of mine but more reasons on why BD+ and DRM is not good for the consumer.

When you purchase a movie in HD, you are purchasing the movie on the disc, not the movie on the disc + the movie on your ipod + the movie on your pc + the movie on your phone, etc etc. Sorry to hear that you think piracy can be legitimate.

Wow, you sound like that Sony Representative (VP?) that said copying a CD to your computer was stealing or something like that.

When you purchase a movie or a song on CD, you are purchasing that content. If I want to watch it on my PC, why can't I? It's mine.

Next thing we'll see is movies will only work on certain TV's ... oh, wait ... ICT flag. :rolleyes:

Both my video card and my projector are supposed to be HDCP compliant. AACS still will not let me play the movies on my HTPC because of HDCP issues without AnyDVD HD. I'm not a pirate. I just want to watch the movies I have bought on HD DVD.

I hate DRM. I hate how they don't let me listen to CDs or watch the movies I buy.

Does that also mean that advanced counter-measures do not exist for the PC platform?Some Advanced Countermeasures are supported in PC software players (AKA "BD+ Proactive Renewal Products").

Countermeasure "feature" support:

Transform Code = Yes
Discovery RAM = Yes
Run Native = PC Modified (limited functions outside of the VM)
Firmware Update = No

Full bore Run Native is limited to dedicated standalone devices. I guess bricking a PC carries a little bit more legal baggage than bircking a dedicated device. ;)

trbarry "Let me first state strongly I have no insider information here but it does seem to me Microsoft has a very strong economic incentive to see or even help BD+ get cracked at the earliest possible opportunity.

Of course as a large and reputable public company they can't really help that along much and of course I'm sure Amir was not publicly stating support for the crackers. But it is easy to imagine Microsoft top executives rooting for it behind the scenes."

People are happy to accept a conspiracy theory over nothing, or the truth.

. . . Maybe a new poll is in order? :p

God, no more polls, please!!!

Edit: Where are you guys buying all these $200 - $1000 houses? Maybe create an analogy with appropriate scale. Jeez, the last DVD player I bought was over $1K.

When you purchase a movie in HD, you are purchasing the movie on the disc, not the movie on the disc + the movie on your ipod + the movie on your pc + the movie on your phone, etc etc. Sorry to hear that you think piracy can be legitimate.

Sorry but if somebody has invested in a product, they should have every right to make a backup incase their is damage to the original. This is especially true for those with kids or pets.

Wow, you sound like that Sony Representative (VP?) that said copying a CD to your computer was stealing or something like that.

When you purchase a movie or a song on CD, you are purchasing that content. If I want to watch it on my PC, why can't I? It's mine.

Next thing we'll see is movies will only work on certain TV's ... oh, wait ... ICT flag. :rolleyes:

Lets be honest here: if Sony had their way, then only Sony DVD or BluRay players could work on a Sony display or Sony receiver and it would require a proprietary connections from the player to the display and receiver. The memory stick is the reason why I'll never purchase a Sony digiital camera.

Lets be honest here: if Sony had their way, then only Sony DVD or BluRay players could work on a Sony display or Sony receiver and it would require a proprietary connections from the player to the display and receiver. The memory stick is the reason why I'll never purchase a Sony digiital camera.

Well honestly, no, you are completely wrong about this. Every company is entitled to invent and sell their own proprietary product if they think that is what consumers want, but Blu-ray is anything but proprietary, and there are quite a few Sony people doing their best to make sure that everyone's software works on everyone else's players, per specification.

Sorry but if somebody has invested in a product, they should have every right to make a backup incase their is damage to the original. This is especially true for those with kids or pets.


I think you are wrong about this too. SPE will replace your disc (SPE movie) if it becomes if fails to work properly. Why do you need a back-up?

I think you are wrong about this too. SPE will replace your disc (SPE movie) if it becomes if fails to work properly. Why do you need a back-up?

Welcome paidgeek. Good to see you here.

Let me pose a hypothetical question. Let's say a consumer has one of the early BD 1.0 players and let's say a couple of years from now they buy a BD from SPE that includes BD+ and find that it won't play properly on their player.

Now let's assume that the manufacturer is no longer providing updates for this player as they didn't sell may of them, they've been out of production for a while, and everyone has now moved on to focusing on their new BD 1.1 and BD 2.0 players.

What remedies does the consumer have?

Welcome paidgeek. Good to see you here.

Let me pose a hypothetical question. Let's say a consumer has one of the early BD 1.0 players and let's say a couple of years from now they buy a BD from SPE that includes BD+ and find that it won't play properly on their player.

Now let's assume that the manufacturer is no longer providing updates for this player as they didn't sell may of them, they've been out of production for a while, and everyone has now moved on to focusing on their new BD 1.1 and BD 2.0 players.

What remedies does the consumer have?

The player companies have an obligation to support BD+ from the outset, so this scenario should never come up. Since Fox is already releasing BD+ titles, there is also the opportunity to check the current BD+ implementation on all players. Where there are problems, the CE companies are responding.

Well honestly, no, you are completely wrong about this. Every company is entitled to invent and sell their own proprietary product if they think that is consumers want, but Blu-ray is anything but proprietary, and there are quite a few Sony people doing their best to make sure that everyone's software works on everyone else's players, per specification.

Really? So Sony research showed that customers would prefer the memory stick instead of the industry standard secure digital memory that 95% of the other digital cameras on the market use? Please show me a link to that.

BluRay is not proprietary but it is another example of Sony doing it's best to create mass confusion in a market so they can gauge their consumers some more just like they did with Atrac, SACD, memory sticks, etc, etc.

I think you are wrong about this too. SPE will replace your disc (SPE movie) if it becomes if fails to work properly. Why do you need a back-up?

So if one of my children leave a SPE BD dics out and one of my two dogs chews it your saying SPE will replace it?

I think you are wrong about this too. SPE will replace your disc (SPE movie) if it becomes if fails to work properly. Why do you need a back-up?

How long for the SPE to replace it? Can they replace it on the same day? If it takes a period of time than a backup is needed.

The player companies have an obligation to support BD+ from the outset, so this scenario should never come up. Since Fox is already releasing BD+ titles, there is also the opportunity to check the current BD+ implementation on all players. Where there are problems, the CE companies are responding.

Ok, so it sounds like the player manufacturers are on the hook for lifetime patches as needed to correct any future compatibility problem that might come up. I assume this would apply to problems that could potentially arise from BD 1.0 players trying to play new BD 1.1/2.0 discs

Is this lifetime obligation documented anywhere? or is it implied?

To me ongoing BD+ support seems no more certain than currently being able to play DivX discs or movies from whatever that discontinued Google video service was called. If you have to continue to ask for permission (a la proactive renewable) then you also have to accept that permission may someday be denied or discontinued.

- Tom

I think you are wrong about this too. SPE will replace your disc (SPE movie) if it becomes if fails to work properly. Why do you need a back-up?

So if one of my children leave a SPE BD dics out and one of my two dogs chews your saying SPE will replace it?

And what if it's 3 years later and the disc is no longer in production or in stock?

I feel for you paidgeek. It looks like you've been missed. :D

Probably because he gets paid to post.


+ $1

The information in the below quote was extracted from post #90 above. I asked Amir which of the below hi-def videos would be most likely be in the TOP TWO least likely to be found among pirated copies out in the blackmarket. Amir chose not to answer which is certainly his right. Do you think the Warner executives, when seeing such a list, would be willing to give a tentative answer to that question? And to what conclusions do you think they might arrive subsequent to arriving at their answer? Comments?

HD DVD:
Evan Almighty, US
A mighty heart, US
Transformers Disc 1+2, US
Wyatt Earp

Blu-ray:
28 Weeks Later, US
Fantastic Four 2, US (has BD+, so it won't play)
From Hell, US
Hostel, US
Hostel 2, US
Meet the Robinsons, US
Mr Brooks, US (BD+ so it won't play)
Reign over Me, US
Spiderman 1, US
Spiderman 2, US
Spiderman 3, US
Smallville Season 6
Reaping US

WAIT!!!! There's more BD titles than HD DVD titles. There goes your theory.

The information in the below quote was extracted from post #90 above. I asked Amir which of the below hi-def videos would be most likely be in the TOP TWO least likely to be found among pirated copies out in the blackmarket. Amir chose not to answer which is certainly his right. Do you think the Warner executives, when seeing such a list, would be willing to give a tentative answer to that question? And to what conclusions do you think they might arrive subsequent to arriving at their answer? Comments?

Yes, for a brief period of time here studios may still hold out hope that the two bolded BD+ titles are immune to this. In your case above that's the FF4-2 and Mr. Brooks BD's.

So let's write down those two titles and see.

It seems fairly likely both of those (and all the rest) will be spotted on the Internet within the life of this thread, possibly before all the hardware and software players out there can play them with BD+. So patient Warner execs can use this thread as a test since helpful posters will no doubt mention here when those events occur.

- Tom

Ok, so it sounds like the player manufacturers are on the hook for lifetime patches as needed to correct any future compatibility problem that might come up. I assume this would apply to problems that could potentially arise from BD 1.0 players trying to play new BD 1.1/2.0 discs

Is this lifetime obligation documented anywhere? or is it implied?

This is going to be a real nightmare for consumers.
(We already got a glimpse of Fox interpretation of 'obligation' to certain br player manufacturers...)

They do it now because they can't have the bad pr. But if br kills of HD DVD and replaces DVD in the mass market they won't. The business model to support this is going to be too expensive. Unless they can come up some sort of unified firmware solution that is platform independent shielding the content providers from the harware implementation. Seeing how they handled it so far my guess is that they are not smart enough to pull that of.

Hardware manufacturers pointing to content providers and vice versa will give them enough opportunities to skimp on the lifetime obligations.

Beyond a certain 'reasonable' period (2years 3 years 5?) they will drop fw support regardless.

Here's an interesting press release:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/5317

James Wong, Head of development at SlySoft: "We already found a way to crack BD+ and we have just turned to fine-tuning. I should really think about hiring a bodyguard now, since this product won't please everybody."
That sounds very much like BD+ is cracked.

Here's an interesting press release:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/5317


That sounds very much like BD+ is cracked.

Game over man, game over!

Here's an interesting press release:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/5317


That sounds very much like BD+ is cracked.

You can decrypt BD+ Discs, but the video has garbage in almost every frame. THAT is what BD+ does, and this is still the first implementation that doesnt affect the audio as well as the video. Trust me, if they figure this one out, the next time will be even harder, and the cat/mouse game will continue, and thats the whole point, to get people so tired of the waiting time to just go buy the movies and be done. Only people this wont affect are the people who had 0 intention of buying in the first place.

You can decrypt BD+ Discs, but the video has garbage in almost every frame.
I don't think that is what SlySoft means when they say that they have found a way to crack BD+. They surely mean that they were able to circumvent it without any garbage in the frames.

Trust me, if they figure this one out, the next time will be even harder, and the cat/mouse game will continue, and thats the whole point
No, I think the whole point of adding BD+ to Blu-Ray was probably to convince Fox to be Blu-Ray exclusive. Now if BD+ doesn't help much more than AACS does, BD+ is kind of moot. I've just read a bit in the SlySoft forums and it is my impression that SlySoft had more trouble breaking MKBv4 than they had trouble breaking BD+. This might be an important event. Because Blu-Ray seems to have just lost most of the added anti crack security it claimed to have over HD DVD!

Sorry but if somebody has invested in a product, they should have every right to make a backup incase their is damage to the original. This is especially true for those with kids or pets.

You are absolutely right, here is an idea tell that to the people that make the laws. You are not meant to be able to backup a DVD, it is protected and it´s only because the protection was cracked you can back it up.

I don´t see HD-DVD providing you with an easy way to make a 1:1 backup either?

Really? So Sony research showed that customers would prefer the memory stick instead of the industry standard secure digital memory that 95% of the other digital cameras on the market use? Please show me a link to that.

BluRay is not proprietary but it is another example of Sony doing it's best to create mass confusion in a market so they can gauge their consumers some more just like they did with Atrac, SACD, memory sticks, etc, etc.

So you are saying that the other memory technologies out there are "free to use and license". Every format is owned by someone, but if is Sony it´s proprietary? And as you put it BluRay is not proprietary so it´s not just Sony trying to create "mass confusion", it´s alot of companies that back Blu-Ray so why only blame Sony?

I've just read a bit in the SlySoft forums and it is my impression that SlySoft had more trouble breaking MKBv4 than they had trouble breaking BD+. This might be an important event. Because Blu-Ray seems to have just lost most of the added anti crack security it claimed to have over HD DVD!

If BD+ means that the next Fox releases will have to cracked all over again it has served it´s purpose. The most important thing is to buy exclusive time, sooner or later some kind of HiDef rip will be released, even if BD+ isn´t cracked.

Someone with Final Cut and a cheap HD breakout box will just record the movie to the Computer and reencode it to 720p. Quality loss for pirates will be close to zero and it will still be a "HiDef" release.

Here's an interesting press release:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/5317


That sounds very much like BD+ is cracked.There's no shortage of folks who are talking the talk. We haven't seen anyone walk the walk on this have we? I disregard "hot air" and empty bragging and BS I see.

Ok, so it sounds like the player manufacturers are on the hook for lifetime patches as needed to correct any future compatibility problem that might come up. I assume this would apply to problems that could potentially arise from BD 1.0 players trying to play new BD 1.1/2.0 discs

Is this lifetime obligation documented anywhere? or is it implied?

The CE companies are not on the "hook" for lifetime patches, but they are obligated to play discs that are in spec. Reciprocally, the content companies are obligated to make the discs in spec. I would not expect problems from BD 1.1 or 2.0 enabled discs, since 95% of the format complexity is already part of the 1.0 specification.

And what if it's 3 years later and the disc is no longer in production or in stock?

We press re-orders on a regular basis. Many catalog titles sell year after year.

There's no shortage of folks who are talking the talk. We haven't seen anyone walk the walk on this have we? I disregard "hot air" and empty bragging and BS I see.
Do you know who SlySoft is and what they do for a living? They certainly have walked the walk so far. So I wouldn't dismiss their claim so easily...

@paidgeek, I'm glad to see you posting again. You've been missed!

Do you know who SlySoft is and what they do for a living? They certainly have walked the walk so far. So I wouldn't dismiss their claim so easily...

There were plenty of people that didn't think Slysoft would continue to break new AACS releases either.

LOL @ BD+

I hope sony counters this and comes up with more insane-consumer/CE-unfriendly DRM - which, unfortunately, will just aggravate consumers with the joys on player incompatibilites. After all, EVERY SINGLE DRM scheme has been CRACKED. But this is sony, and they NEVER EVER learn. Besides, its much more fun to watch them dig their own grave. GG sony.

Well isn´t Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (are they out?) burners expensive as well and do they actually playback burned HD media?. A thing that might gonna hurt HD-DVD is that a SL burnable BR disc can hold a complete (or almost) HD-DVD release. I think that the "good old" copying thing is gonna return with a vengeance and our usual suspects in the far east is gonna provide plenty of "content".

The point is not to burn copies on optical media but to store it on HDD/download it over the internet. Having a burner for optical media is last gen...

I liked the joking comment by the head of devleopment that he prolly needs to hire a bodyguard cause he ain't gonna be too popular.

We press re-orders on a regular basis. Many catalog titles sell year after year.
Really? How come I can't buy a new copy of Split Second (with Rutger Hauer) without going to a collecter ($156.89)?

I liked the joking comment by the head of devleopment that he prolly needs to hire a bodyguard cause he ain't gonna be too popular.

He wouldn't be the 1st hacker to end up officially "comitting suicide"...

We press re-orders on a regular basis. Many catalog titles sell year after year.

Also unlike DVD and HD-DVD The protective coating on the Blu-ray disc makes it a lat harder to mess up.

Also unlike DVD and HD-DVD The protective coating on the Blu-ray disc makes it a lat harder to mess up.

Unlike Blu-Ray, you can fix scratches on DVD and HD-DVD.

Scratch a Blu-Ray disc and it's toast, and they NEED the protective coating, it's not a special feature.

Do you know who SlySoft is and what they do for a living? They certainly have walked the walk so far. So I wouldn't dismiss their claim so easily...Have you seen a "pirated" BD+ disc? Neither have I.:)

and they NEED the protective coating, it's not a special feature.

It's both; a Ferrari *needs* special tires. Those tires are also a feature. Just because the hard coat is required, does not mean it's not a good bit more awesome than all other non-hardcoated media.

Unlike Blu-Ray, you can fix scratches on DVD and HD-DVD.

Scratch a Blu-Ray disc and it's toast, and they NEED the protective coating, it's not a special feature.

Special feature or not, it's a benefit that HD DVD doesn't have.

back on topic please

Thanks

^^^ How did we go from BD+ to hardcoating? :confused:

Have you seen a "pirated" BD+ disc? Neither have I.:)
I don't go around looking for pirated BD+ discs, so I haven't seen any. But anyway, I'm sure there aren't any flying around. How could they? There is no software available yet which can crack BD+. And nobody said there was.

You're one of those "I don't believe it until I see it" guys, aren't you? :) No problem for me. But IMO the writing is on the wall. Marketing people often go round talking bullshit, but developers/programmers are usually rather down to earth. So if SlySoft's head developer claims they've broken BD+ in their lab, then I have little doubt about that. Thankfully I don't have to bet on BD+ being broken in a specific number of days/weeks. But I think believing that BD+ will still not be cracked by the end of this year would be rather optimistic right now. At least I expect to hear about pirated BD+ movies showing up by year's end. It might still be the case that BD+ will only be broken/circumvented for some specific titles and that SlySoft will have to play cat and mouse with all future movies. We'll have to wait and see about that...

Have you seen a "pirated" BD+ disc? Neither have I.:)Unless the black helicopters land on that Caribbean island -- I would not make such statements which just diminish one's credibility.

Unless the black helicopters land on that Caribbean island -- I would not make such statements which just diminish one's credibility.Say what??

time: some members here have gone too far :mad: