I own a rock.

Scissors are okay.

Paper sucks.

Those magazines take ad revenue from the very products they review. Consumer Reports does not take any advertising. I used to subscribe to Home Theater Magazine until they reviewed a Cary Audio Pre/Pro Amp combo with an advertisement and endorsement from Home Theater in the same issue the product was reviewed. Cary Audio glowed about their review in Home Theater Magazine in the same issue it was reviewed in. If that's not selling ads, I don't know what is.

I agree that there's a conflict of interest with the big 3 HT mags. Reviewing products that are being advertised in that issue of the magazine should send up a red flag to any thinking person. I've seen this occur many times over the years. Even if the specific product being reviewed is not being advertised, the main advertisers are always advertising one of their products. The HT mags survive from ad revenue from the companies whose products are being reviewed.

The manufacturers give the HT mags the product they test. CR buys their own.

Our National Testing and Research Center, in Yonkers, N.Y., is the largest nonprofit educational and consumer product testing center in the world. We buy all the products we use as test samples. We receive no special treatment. We accept no free samples. If a manufacturer sends us a free product, we return it.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/aboutus/mission/overview/index.htm

Of course, CR reviews are not nearly as detailed as the HT mags, but I trust their overall opinions. The people who do the testing are not journalists.

More than 100 testing experts work in seven major technical departments--appliances, auto test, baby & child, electronics, foods, health & family, and recreation & home improvement, while more than 25 research experts work in three departments--product acquisition, product information, and statistics & quality management. In addition, we have more than 150 anonymous shoppers throughout the country.

State-of-the-art testing equipment is always used and is sometimes complemented by equipment designed by our engineers. The actual tests are based not only on government and industry standards but also on standards our specialists think should apply.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/aboutus/test/index.htm

Taking this thought a bit further, sometimes these "ratings" include a value variable -- something tested might compare very favorably to the top-rated item, but CR drops it down in the ratings a few notches because of the price-of-admission variable.

This is not true. The "value variable" does not affect the score. The value variable is reflected by the words "CR best buy" which is next to the product. Again, the value doesn't affect the ranking ("overall score" or "test results").

There is no "price of admission variable". Where do guys come up with this stuff?

Samsung has flaws. It judders and flickers. The picture is horrible! Sure, they made it bright but everything else about the Samsung is bad.

I currently own a 50" Panasonic plasma. I've owned three different plasma televisions and one LCD television. Samsung is just horrible! I never would buy a Sylvania or Westinghouse for the same reason I would not buy a Samsung. They are all in the lower class.

Whoever thinks Samsung is acceptable must be blind or be buying their first plamsa HDTV and is judging based on analog SD versus digital HD. To those who own multiple plasmas and have lived with HDTV the Samsung is unacceptable because of the flickering and judder.


For me i cant get past pannys zoom modes, just-h-fill etc do zero. I tested pio's and there is a zoom mode i could live with. But besides that side by side panny and pio they are extremely similar as far as pq, brightness, imho. They almost look identical besides the kuros better black levels, and the fact that u need to turn sharpness down all the way on pannys.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-fp-t5084/4505-6482_7-32460966.html?tag=pdtl-list

doogie used to own vizio wich he proclaimed to be the best. What hapened to your vizio dookie? As we all know all video experts own vizio.

doogie used to own vizio wich he proclaimed to be the best. What hapened to your vizio dookie? As we all know all video experts own vizio.

Seriously i would take a vizio 50 over a panny 50. A vizio 60in over a 58 panny. A pio over them all.

Seriously i would take a vizio 50 over a panny 50.

Who wouldn't?

Who wouldn't?


LoL. Seriously i concede PQ is better on panny, just the zoom modes wont work for me and i wont watch movies with ultra thick black bars on anything less than 65in, just wont happen.

Samsung has flaws. It judders and flickers. The picture is horrible! Sure, they made it bright but everything else about the Samsung is bad.

I currently own a 50" Panasonic plasma. I've owned three different plasma televisions and one LCD television. Samsung is just horrible!

Our family has both a Panasonic and a Samsung plasma so perhaps I can offer a more credible opinion. Each have their advantages but in terms of image quality I feel they perform equally well. The Samsung 84 series does not have the judder issue found in their earlier models. It produces a beautiful bicture with good blacks, excellent color and no flicker.

I like the Samsung for its additional inputs, greater range of user controls, QAM tuner and PIP capability. On the other hand I prefer the Panasonic's AG coating, SD stretch mode and front-firing speakers. The Samsung may have slightly more accurate color but you can't fault the PQ on either. Both are good buys and I'm sure most people would be happy with either.

My only caveat is to beware of the 54/64 Samsung series due to the judder/ticker issue. I've seen this in person and it would annoy me if my TV had it, even if I didn't consciously see it all the time. CR didn't even seem to take this into account when they pubished their findings though.

Our family has both a Panasonic and a Samsung plasma so perhaps I can offer a more credible opinion. Each have their advantages but in terms of image quality I feel they perform equally well. The Samsung 84 series does not have the judder issue found in their earlier models. It produces a beautiful bicture with good blacks, excellent color and no flicker.

I like the Samsung for its additional inputs, greater range of user controls, QAM tuner and PIP capability. On the other hand I prefer the Panasonic's AG coating, SD stretch mode and front-firing speakers. The Samsung may have slightly more accurate color but you can't fault the PQ on either. Both are good buys and I'm sure most people would be happy with either.

My only caveat is to beware of the 54/64 Samsung series due to the judder/ticker issue. I've seen this in person and it would annoy me if my TV had it, even if I didn't consciously see it all the time. CR didn't even seem to take this into account when they pubished their findings though.

I like your assessment. You are right in terms of finding differences among the 84 and 700U. Not much difference. Feature-wise the Samsung is the winner. Picture quality is relatively close.

Chris

My only caveat is to beware of the 54/64 Samsung series due to the judder/ticker issue. I've seen this in person and it would annoy me if my TV had it, even if I didn't consciously see it all the time. CR didn't even seem to take this into account when they pubished their findings though.




Never notice nor experience either “Judder or Flicker" in my Samsung 5054 which I have excellent opinion about it. For those who have seen Judder or Flicker the latest firmware 1039 have resolved these issue and should be a matter of concern.
BTW: During past 12 months Samsung TVs (DLP, LCD and Plasma) have become no. 1 selling brand in an America more than any other manufacturers like Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony, Sharp or Toshiba according to the reports

For those who have seen Judder or Flicker the latest firmware 1039 have resolved these issue and should be a matter of concern.
I hadn't kept up on it since I don't own one, but that's good news then. I'd read about the problem, and then I saw it happening on a display model in store last month so I thought it was still as issue. Other that that it was a nice TV.

...
Then again, maybe Samsung sucks so bad that UMR can make money making it suck less. Panasonic is so good that it does not need the services of UMR and he knows it. If you're going to be a mechanic, you might as well specalize in the brand that breaks down the most.

LOL!!!

...

As for calibrators, I've not seen other AVS members reference UMR's calibrations; rather the names I constantly see (in praise of their opinions) are D-Nice, Ken Ross, Cleveland Plasma, Randy Walters [who constantly posts valuable insights to Panasonic especially], etc.

...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8242226#post8242226

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11858390#post11858390

I ditto this ditto. I have them both as well.

Doogie Howser is a maroon.

dxr

I like your assessment. You are right in terms of finding differences among the 84 and 700U. Not much difference. Feature-wise the Samsung is the winner. Picture quality is relatively close.

Chris

If you have your plasma professionally tuned, you're wasting your money. Get a copy of digital video essentials or Avia. Pioneers are the most unreliable brand of the bunch. Samsung's casing looks great but the picture is not the best.

If you want to spend the extra money on a Pioneer, buy from the cheapest authorized online reseller. They're all the same, they drop ship from the nearest warehouse to your house. If you have a problem with your plasma, the Pioneer guy will come fix it.

I bought my Panasonic 50" plasma from an authorized drop shipper. It still works.

I'm the best!

I bought my Panasonic 50" plasma from an authorized drop shipper. It still works.

I'm the best!Yes, but your Panasonic is 2nd to Pioneer.

Yes, but your Panasonic is 2nd to Pioneer.Not in numbers of units sold :D

Not in numbers of units sold :D

Michael Jackson sold the most albums, but doesn't mean it was the best music. Just admit that you are the ultimate Panny Fanboy and lets get it over with. You are incapable of an objective perspective on plasmas :)

Randy reccomended the pio 5080 over pannies for SD..I don't think he's a fanboy...Just call him a pan thusist

as for mike jackson...to bad the police and their album synchronicity had to go up against thriller that year. In almost every other year they would've wqalkedaway with top honors

All..

Did you notice what UMR basically said.

He said the Panny guts isn't worth his professional time. This includes all new models including 1080 if i'm not mistaken.

He also said his TV of choice when he will buy was the pio ELITE kuro..

he didn't say "kuro" or 5080..

He said the best unit ,,,the unit w/ the notocable diff in pq to EVERY other set IMO..

what I want to hear an expert say regardless of the TV's guts is that the kuro 5080 just isn't worth it comparing it to other comp villians HD 1080 pq.

crap...you don't have to say it..you only have to use ur eyes to see it..just like the ELITE kuro being head and shoulders better..the 5080 is not head and shoulders better regardless of innards

UMR discredited himself. He isn't respected. I never hear of him. It is some guy who has an opinion that is in the minority. CR is a trusted magazine that does not accept any advertising money from the products they review. There is no conflict of interest. CR got it right using experts and normal people.

Then again, maybe Samsung sucks so bad that UMR can make money making it suck less. Panasonic is so good that it does not need the services of UMR and he knows it. If you're going to be a mechanic, you might as well specalize in the brand that breaks down the most.

Have you ever heard of the Bose CR debacle. Basically Bose made enough noise to get CR to change their review of the Bose product. I think in general CR is careful about how they review products to ensure they don't get on their bad side. In general, I'll take a person's word who's out in the real world servicing products over the word of a "lab" type environment that has to be careful not to upset the companies they are reviewing.

That being said, no one should accept information from any one source, you just need to understand their vantage point and take their info. with a grain of salt. CR and other pro review groups can be a good source of info. to steer you in the right direction. However, taking people's personal experience into account also helps determine what it will be like living with a product.

For example, a review may be negative on a product because a particular functionality or setting didn't work to their expectations, but then you find out that there is a way to fix that problem. Given that knowledge maybe it's the right product because it does other things very well. On the flip side, a product may review very well, but many people report problems with it, say it fails after a short period of time. It doesn't matter that it's the most highly acclaimed product if it fails in short order.

Instead of criticizing folks and trying to prove source A is better than source B, why not just take the info. for what it is? Try using that info to get a better overall picture of a product and produce messages that add value rather than waste space and clog up the search engine.

Michael Jackson sold the most albums, but doesn't mean it was the best music. Just admit that you are the ultimate Panny Fanboy and lets get it over with. You are incapable of an objective perspective on plasmas :)You're wrong - i'm actually a Pioneer fanboy and i recommend them to people all the time (depending on their needs and wants), but i consider the Panasonic 1080p sets to be the better value for the money. And i rarely recommend the Panny 768p sets nowadays unless it's to steer somebody away from a cheap bargain basement brand or if they sit so far from the screen that SDE isn't a consideration.

If Pioneer made a 42" 1080p Kuro or Elite i would have bought a Pioneer instead of the Panny 42PZ700U but they do not, so i had to "settle" for the Panasonic.

My only caveat is to beware of the 54/64 Samsung series due to the judder/ticker issue. I've seen this in person and it would annoy me if my TV had it, even if I didn't consciously see it all the time. CR didn't even seem to take this into account when they pubished their findings though.

Actually, C.R. did comment about it - in the next issue (December, recently received), on pg. 28, with this comment...

SAMSUNG HP-T5064
"The 720p Samsung had excellent picture quality, with bright, colorful images; solid blacks; and satisfying detail. But this set and its 42-inch siblings (HP-T4254/4264) had a minor quirk visible in test patterns displaying steady motion: a hiccup every few seconds. It's less obvious in normal viewing but you might see it in a scrolling news ticker, for instance. The pricier 1080p Samsung (FP-T5084) had finer detail but the picture wasn't as good. ...also more stated in another column on the 42" set - "the Samsung had the same jerkiness as the bigger set".

[the 50" 720p Samsung finished 3rd, and the 50" 1080p Samsung finished 8th].

Note: the December issue is a continuation from the November issue. C.R. had a statement in last month's issue on pg.33...

COMING SOON
We're testing more plasma TVs for our December issue. Among the models in our labs are two more 1080p sets from category leader Panasonic, the 58-inch TH-58PZ750 and 42-inch TH-42PZ700U. We also have two 50-inch 1080p sets from other brands with good performance histories: the Hitachi P50S601 and Samsung FP-T5084. Among the new 720p sets we're testing is the Maxent MX-42HPT51, a low-priced plasma with 42-inch screen, expected to sell for less than $1,000. [-END-]

By the way, that Panasonic 58" 1080p model was rated #1 (w/78 points) in the 58-to-60-Inch Models, and the 42" 1080 Panasonic finished 3rd (w/74 points) in the 42-Inch Models, behind the #1 Pioneer Elite PRO-950HD (w/79 points), and the Panasonic TH-42PX77U (w/77 points) - so very close.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8242226#post8242226

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11858390#post11858390

Thanks - I'll explore your links/comments, which I'm assuming include calibrations for many Panasonic plasma owners (among others). However, I disagree with your quoted opinion that "Panasonic = Totally Unacceptable" (relating to the black level comparisons w/Pioneer Kuro). A rating/opinion like this should be reserved for the lower-performing plasmas, such as various models from Maxent, HP, Akai, Maganavox, etc.

Michael Jackson sold the most albums, but doesn't mean it was the best music.

Actually, experts consider ELVIS PRESLEY the largest selling musical artist in history (worldwide sales), and he is the #1 income earner among deceased celebrities. Though Michael Jackson's THRILLER is perhaps the #1 selling album. Either it or the Eagles GREATEST HITS Vol 1.

Thanks - I'll explore your links/comments, which I'm assuming include calibrations for many Panasonic plasma owners (among others). However, I disagree with your quoted opinion that "Panasonic = Totally Unacceptable" (relating to the black level comparisons w/Pioneer Kuro). A rating/opinion like this should be reserved for the lower-performing plasmas, such as various models from Maxent, HP, Akai, Maganavox, etc.

I beleive umr comments about the Panny being Totally Unacceptable goes much more deeper than just the black levels. Here are a couple of comments umr made about the pannys. I worked on a 50PZ750U yesterday. The light output was limited to about 25 fL at D65 and the color decoder was very wrong. The thing was dim at D65 (clipped above 25 fL) and the color decoder was a wreck. People looked orange on the Panasonic with the whites at D65.

For our Panny Fanboys, here is a quote from the forum's top calibrator (UMR) on Panasonic plasma

"I find the current Panasonic plasmas totally unacceptable. I did not even bother with this type of measurement because it failed in so many other ways."I thought Gregg Loewen was the forum's top calibrator :D

It's funny, a while back one of our PZ700/750 owners had his TV ISF calibrated and commented something to the effect that the calibrator was impressed with how accurate the TV was.

People looked orange on the Panasonic with the whites at D65.

Beware of the orange people! :eek:

Seriously, no people have "looked orange" on the Pannys I've viewed at local stores (since July).

How many others here have a Panny with settings that reveal people looking "orange".

Any calibrators other than UMR reporting this? -or Reviews, etc?

That's called 'clay-face'. ;)
Vivid is not D65.

I thought Gregg Loewen was the forum's top calibrator :D

.

Just depends who I'm trying to suck up to

That's called 'clay-face'. ;)
Vivid is not D65.

Yes, I've heard of the "clay-face" look, but thought this was due to the unnatural VIVID setting(?), and that it can be avoided with your picture/image controls - so shouldn't be a problem.

But the "orange" was related to UMR's opinion regarding inaccurate color inherent to the native settings ["color decoder wrong with the whites at D65"].

So does the orange = clay-faced? - if so, that can be corrected in the picture settings.

Yes, I've heard of the "clay-face" look, but thought this was due to the unnatural VIVID setting(?), and that it can be avoided with your picture/image controls - so shouldn't be a problem.

But the "orange" was related to UMR's opinion regarding inaccurate color inherent to the native settings ["color decoder wrong with the whites at D65"].

So does the orange = clay-faced? - if so, that can be corrected in the picture settings.

For years Panasonic denied that they was a "Clay Face" issue, then last year they issued a "Clay Face" firmware update. So much for telling the truth. Who knows if it's corrected as they haven't been exactly truthful or innovated on their customer's behalf.

For years Panasonic denied that they was a "Clay Face" issue, then last year they issued a "Clay Face" firmware update. So much for telling the truth. Who knows if it's corrected as they haven't been exactly truthful or innovated on their customer's behalf.

But, again, isn't it only noticeable with the VIVID picture mode setting?

The models I've seen over the last few months do not have people with a clay-face image - which now that I think more about it, I did see 'this' once before in 2005 (when purchasing my Aquos LCD), having looked at the Panny plasma, but they were overpriced).

But.. is the "clay-face" = orange color "with the whites at D65" - ?

For years Panasonic denied that they was a "Clay Face" issue, then last year they issued a "Clay Face" firmware update. So much for telling the truth. Who knows if it's corrected as they haven't been exactly truthful or innovated on their customer's behalf.
LOL and Pioneer has? How about the class action lawsuit against Pioneer from customers in the US just to get a firmware update for a DVD player? Or how about the firmware update debacle last year for the Pioneer Elite receivers? Looking at Pioneer and their CS I wouldn't classify them as being truthful or innovative either;)

LOL and Pioneer has? How about the class action lawsuit against Pioneer from customers in the US just to get a firmware update for a DVD player? Or how about the firmware update debacle last year for the Pioneer Elite receivers? Looking at Pioneer and their CS I wouldn't classify them as being truthful or innovative either;)As bad as Pioneer's customer service is perceived to be, Panasonic is worse.

For years Panasonic denied that they was a "Clay Face" issue, then last year they issued a "Clay Face" firmware update. So much for telling the truth. Who knows if it's corrected as they haven't been exactly truthful or innovated on their customer's behalf.

Most Panasonic panels did not have this problem.
I believe the new firmware just made it idiot-proof with user settings.

But, again, isn't it only noticeable with the VIVID picture mode setting?

The models I've seen over the last few months do not have people with a clay-face image - which now that I think more about it, I did see 'this' once before in 2005 (when purchasing my Aquos LCD), having looked at the Panny plasma, but they were overpriced).

But.. is the "clay-face" = orange color "with the whites at D65" - ?

I tend to think my Panasonic has pretty accurate colors compared to any Samsung or Pioneer but UMR is talking about newer models. ;)

As bad as Pioneer's customer service is perceived to be, Panasonic is worse.
Yeah thats why when I bought a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSI for 1600 hundred bux I was told by a Pioneer CSR "Yes we know you need a firmware update to properly implement the LFE boost but only select service centers will have the special jig to do this and you will to ship it out at your expense and it may take possibly 3 months to get it back." So needless to say that receiver was returned immediately and Pioneer went to the bottom of my list for any electronic needs. How Panasonic could ne worse is beyond me.:rolleyes:

no..don't die..

hans...wtfru

As someone who reads CR I don't think people should rip the magazine untill they read the entire article. I don't always agree but I at least read how the product was tested and why a product is considered good or bad. For instance at the end of the article it states that in next months issue some of the bigger and more advanced tv's will also be tested. Also I've read several times here that CR factors price in the scores this is not true the scores are the scores , however CR does highlight what it considers a best buy for value but this is not reflected in the score.

Jesus, what kind of ****in freakshow is going on here, seriously...

I spent a few hours looking at Plasmas today and a few decent newer LCD fix panels. I was in the industry in the past and I know what too look for in a decent set but boy have things changed. I must admit, I was about ready to pull the trigger on a Panasonic 1080p Plasma but the Pioneer 720p looked far better to my eyes.. In fact the only Plasmas on the floor that looked better than this 50" was there Elite line and of course there 1080p model... Viewing any TV is subjective to what you like in a set, and I like deep blacks and great color detail and a very crisp picture.. I will check out some more Panasonic models tomorrow, but I am leaning towards the Pioneer.. Regardless of any fricking review "my eyes" are what counts here... Sure a review might steer me in a direction to the mass amounts of choices we now have.. If you want a inexpensive Plasma with a decent picture the Panasonic is a sure bet, but if you want performance and the best overall picture quality the Pioneers have it hands down. Also I rarely see any complaints on there Plasmas, I did like the Panasonic can some one give me some decent settings so when I go back to the store tomorrow I can tweak it more and then compare, I know some times in stores they have it set to torch mode and if it is a less expensive one they make it look like crap.. ;)

phipp01: In regards of Pioneers customer support, it been top notch on my end.. I also had the Elite 84 receiver updated via firmware, took local shop about 30 min to update, went got lunch came back picked up receiver and bingo was ready to go, a friend also had same model shipped it out got it back a week later because he didn't have a service center near by. I hope you didn't pay $1600 bucks for it.. ;)

phipp01: In regards of Pioneers customer support, it been top notch on my end.. I also had the Elite 84 receiver updated via firmware, took local shop about 30 min to update, went got lunch came back picked up receiver and bingo was ready to go, a friend also had same model shipped it out got it back a week later because he didn't have a service center near by. I hope you didn't pay $1600 bucks for it.. ;)
Nope returned it and bought a Marantz sr7001. After the way their CS spoke to me and basically said "your screwed oh well deal with it" I did. Out with pioneer in with Marantz and now most likely be upgrading to a Denon:D

Out with pioneer in with Marantz and now most likely be upgrading to a Denon:D

Assuming you're talking about comparable models, Marantz to Denon is a lateral move at best. I've never seen another receiver brand get better reviews for sound quality.

To quote another poster earlier, this "plasma" forum really does have it all! :p

Assuming you're talking about comparable models, Marantz to Denon is a lateral move at best. I've never seen another receiver brand get better reviews for sound quality.

To quote another poster earlier, this "plasma" forum really does have it all! :p
By upgrading I meant to this years model from last years model of Marantz. I believe the medical term is upgraditus:D

no thread hijacks..stay on course.

this is a HOF thread

What does HOF mean?

How the heck did the pio 5080 get a score of 73?

What does HOF mean?

Hall of Fame thread.

Actually, experts consider ELVIS PRESLEY the largest selling musical artist in history (worldwide sales), and he is the #1 income earner among deceased celebrities. Though Michael Jackson's THRILLER is perhaps the #1 selling album. Either it or the Eagles GREATEST HITS Vol 1.

I believe the Eagles "Greatest Hits Vol. #1" is the best selling single album in America, while Michael Jackson's "Thriller" is the best selling single album in the world.

I believe the Eagles "Greatest Hits Vol. #1" is the best selling single album in America, while Michael Jackson's "Thriller" is the best selling single album in the world.

Yeah, that's seems right. And from what's "trackable", here's the RIAA Chart rankings (http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=tblTop100) <link

I thought Gregg Loewen was the forum's top calibrator :D

It's funny, a while back one of our PZ700/750 owners had his TV ISF calibrated and commented something to the effect that the calibrator was impressed with how accurate the TV was.
Of course the calibrator said that.
What else is he going to say?
This TV sucks, I did the best i could.
That will be $500.00 please.

"This TV sucks, I did the best i could.
That will be $500.00 please."

:D:D:p:p

cause it is thrilla...thrilla nite

Any chance in hell I can exchange this New AVS for good old Classic AVS?

hi guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters
I thought Gregg Loewen was the forum's top calibrator

It's funny, a while back one of our PZ700/750 owners had his TV ISF calibrated and commented something to the effect that the calibrator was impressed with how accurate the TV was.

Of course the calibrator said that.
What else is he going to say?
This TV sucks, I did the best i could.
That will be $500.00 please

the above comment is "kind of uncool". The quotation makes it seem like I said those comments (which I did not).

In addition thaxx stated:
Of course the calibrator said that.
What else is he going to say?
This TV sucks, I did the best i could.
That will be $500.00 please.


This is something I would not say and i think it is personally insulting not only to myself but to other people that earn a living performing video calibration services (which we do out of a love for the hobby).

Gregg Loewen
THX Video Instructor
ISF Video Instructor
Datacolor Product Trainer

Folks,

Just in case you don't know: when the batch of TVs come into our labs, we take a good while optimizing their pictures. The out-of-box settings are not used. We also take readings with chroma- and light-measuring instruments. This ensures we see the best grayscale and color accuracy, and most neutral image possible. We repeat the process for all three signal types (480i, 480p, 1080i) - since the optimization can often differ. We use the user-accessible controls for all this, not service menus. Only after assuring ourselves that each sample is optimized, we have panelists judge the picture qualities. We use several video clips which were chosen to reveal any possible weaknesses in TVs. We have the same Reference TVs setup & running in the labs so the comparisons are as consistent over time & batches as possible.

I think this is pretty exhaustive and a great deal for our readers, considering the quantity we report on. But I truly do like to hear honest critique on what aspects could be improved. We do read a lot of feedback from readers, and the valuable comments have influenced on our processes.

I think, critique is often given without knowledge of the whole testing & publishing process (which is understandable). That is why we open our labs for visitors each year in October for anyone to see, hear, & ask about it all. In 2008 the Annual Meeting & Lab Tours was on Oct. 25.

Rich Sulin
Program Leader, Electronics
Consumers Union, Consumer Reports
Yonkers, NY

Folks,

Just in case you don't know: when the batch of TVs come into our labs, we take a good while optimizing their pictures. The out-of-box settings are not used. We also take readings with chroma- and light-measuring instruments. This ensures we see the best grayscale and color accuracy, and most neutral image possible. We repeat the process for all three signal types (480i, 480p, 1080i) - since the optimization can often differ. We use the user-accessible controls for all this, not service menus. Only after assuring ourselves that each sample is optimized, we have panelists judge the picture qualities. We use several video clips which were chosen to reveal any possible weaknesses in TVs. We have the same Reference TVs setup & running in the labs so the comparisons are as consistent over time & batches as possible.

I think this is pretty exhaustive and a great deal for our readers, considering the quantity we report on. But I truly do like to hear honest critique on what aspects could be improved. We do read a lot of feedback from readers, and the valuable comments have influenced on our processes.

I think, critique is often given without knowledge of the whole testing & publishing process (which is understandable). That is why we open our labs for visitors each year in October for anyone to see, hear, & ask about it all. In 2008 the Annual Meeting & Lab Tours was on Oct. 25.

Rich Sulin
Program Leader, Electronics
Consumers Union, Consumer Reports
Yonkers, NY

What is going on here? You have been a member here for three years, and you made this your first post, on a thread that had it last comment on it, in Nov. of 2007?

Are you just trying to advertise your business?

What is going on here? You have been a member here for three years, and you made this your first post, on a thread that had it last comment on it, in Nov. of 2007?

Are you just trying to advertise your business?

No, he's getting ready for the sh*t about to hit the fan because Consumer Reports just rated the Samsung over the Pioneer plasma in their December issue. I call it proper planning on his part, unlike a recent AVS shootout in New York that was a joke because the Samsung plasma wasn't calibrated properly and it turned into a Pioneer marketing event instead of a unbiased test.

No, he's getting ready for the sh*t about to hit the fan because Consumer Reports just rated the Samsung over the Pioneer plasma in their December issue. I call it proper planning on his part, unlike a recent AVS shootout in New York that was a joke because the Samsung plasma wasn't calibrated properly and it turned into a Pioneer marketing event instead of a unbiased test.

Seriously? CR rated the new Samsung over the new Pioneer? Man, that is a joke. I have the fp-t5084, which is the only reason I bothered to click on this thread. I knew I hadn't seen it in quite some time (Wow though, November of last year? ya just HAD to bring it back from the dead, didn't ya?). Even though I have the 5084, I would agree that last years Pioneer 5080 is a step above my 5084. And this years 5020 is a step above the Samsung 850 (or whatever plasma they tested).

Sure, some people love reading consumer reports for their "in depth" reviews, but I personally would rather stick with people with credibility, such as Cnet (to some degree), HD Guru, and Sound & Vision. CR will never top my list if I am looking for a new TV. They factor in PRICE as part of their scoring system. That is BS. I don't care about price. I care about quality.

I'm not going to bother reading back, but I seem to recall CR rating a VIZIO above the Sammy 5084? Someone please correct me if I am wrong (which I may be).

But there is no way in hell any Vizio is going to beat any Samsung. Sorry. Not gonna happen.

If Kenmore made a HDTV, CR would have it ranked #1 with a CR Bestbuy.

If Kenmore made a HDTV, CR would have it ranked #1 with a CR Bestbuy.

LOL. That's a good way of putting it hahahaha. They woulda made it the cover model too.... I can see it now....

"Kenmore stainless steel plasma is amazing! Best TV ever reviewed!!! Go buy.... NOW!!!"

Seriously? CR rated the new Samsung over the new Pioneer? Man, that is a joke.

Why would that be a joke? The CR rep in the above post lays out a good testing procedure.

I knew I hadn't seen it in quite some time (Wow though, November of last year? ya just HAD to bring it back from the dead, didn't ya?).

I didn't bring the thread back, the program leader of the electronics testing division of CR decided to post here. Maybe instead of calling his testing a "joke", you could rub some brain cells together and ask him an intelligent question, if you are capable of that.

Even though I have the 5084, I would agree that last years Pioneer 5080 is a step above my 5084. And this years 5020 is a step above the Samsung 850 (or whatever plasma they tested).

Do impress us with the comprehensive scientific testing procedure that you used to support your claim, please. Maybe CR can use some of your methods, since you call their results a "joke". I can't wait to hear about it. :D

Sure, some people love reading consumer reports for their "in depth" reviews, but I personally would rather stick with people with credibility, such as Cnet (to some degree), HD Guru, and Sound & Vision.

Anyone that accepts advertising from vendors whose products they test, clearly has a conflict of interest problem and potential for bias in many ways. That's a big negative.

CR will never top my list if I am looking for a new TV. They factor in PRICE as part of their scoring system.

Never heard that one before. Would you care to provide evidence for your claim? I think you are confusing their "best buy" naming with the actual scoring system during testing. AFAIK, the scoring system has nothing to do with price. Price only comes into play when they pick just one or two of the models tested as a "best buy".

If Kenmore made a HDTV, CR would have it ranked #1 with a CR Bestbuy.

That's a cheap shot that belittles their testing methods and has no basis in fact. Heck, over on the AVS home theatre construction threads, those guys are singing the praises of a soundproofing drywall glue called Green Glue that has been tested with much less rigor and much more room for the possibility of crooked testing methods, but those AVS'ers don't care. Interesting dichotomy between the two threads. AVS'ers are sometimes quite amusing.

I

Well easycruise, we'll have to see what the CR review says. It appears that you have some insight into their report however.
If it is as you claim, expect the kuro fans to get apoplectic. After the meltdown, they'll settle down and realize that no report is gonna tell them their kuro isn't the best. That's ok I guess because as someone used to say here, you gotta love your plasma.

I appreciate his taking the time to post a description of their testing procedures. I also think it's good that they use the user accessible controls because the majority of the public is going to use them to adjust their TV. They're not going to know about a service menu or a professional calibrator. These are "real world" tests, not tests that more technically minded people like the ones that come to AVS are looking for. That's not a criticism of either side, just my take on the situation.

Well easycruise, we'll have to see what the CR review says. It appears that you have some insight into their report however.
.

It's on their website now. Just appeared within the last day or so. I have no inside info.

It's on their website now. Just appeared within the last day or so. I have no inside info.

The two things that the Samsung outscores the Pioneer on in the CR review are the on-screen menus and the remote. These have nothing to do with picture quality. I couldn't care less about either.

Owners of Pioneer plasma TVs and Bose speakers love to bash CR because they dare to say they are not the best. Keep in mind CR does not accept advertising, yet all those consumer AV mags that praise the Pio plasmas live or die with their advertising dollars. You do the math.

Owners of Pioneer plasma TVs and Bose speakers love to bash CR because they dare to say they are not the best. Keep in mind CR does not accept advertising, yet all those consumer AV mags that praise the Pio plasmas live or die with their advertising dollars. You do the math.

What's the math? How many dollars does Pioneer contribute to the AV magazines in comparison to Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, LG, JVC etc.? I'm pretty sure I have seen all of them advertise in those magazines so how do they determine which set they state is the best if it's based solely on advertising dollars?

:eek::confused::rolleyes::D

Owners of Pioneer plasma TVs and Bose speakers love to bash CR because they dare to say they are not the best. Keep in mind CR does not accept advertising, yet all those consumer AV mags that praise the Pio plasmas live or die with their advertising dollars. You do the math.

You need to read the review. The Samsung outscores the Pioneer by 1 point in CR's rating scheme. That 1-point win is not because of any issue related to picture quality. It is based on what CR says is a better remote, on-screen menu system and ease of use. The Pioneer still outscores the Sammy on picture quality.

You need to read the review. The Samsung outscores the Pioneer by 1 point in CR's rating scheme. That 1-point win is not because of any issue related to picture quality. It is based on what CR says is a better remote, on-screen menu system and ease of use. The Pioneer still outscores the Sammy on picture quality.I'm not a subscriber. Can you PM me the entire review (or post it) and the list of scores.

You need to read the review. The Samsung outscores the Pioneer by 1 point in CR's rating scheme. That 1-point win is not because of any issue related to picture quality. It is based on what CR says is a better remote, on-screen menu system and ease of use. The Pioneer still outscores the Sammy on picture quality.

Would it be possible for you to start a new thread, showing the details, or a link to the latest CR tests reports? It would be nice to separate the new report discussion from all the old history on this thread, including one person wanting to conflate some vendor panel shoot out, with the CR reviews.

If you can, would you be so kind as to set up a new thread dedicated to the new CR reviews, so that we can jettison all the old baggage of this outdated thread.:)

I'm not a subscriber. Can you PM me the entire review (or post it) and the list of scores.

I can't post it because I don't want to get in trouble with CR. They will come after anyone who posts their copyrighted material. I will recap the reviews.

The score on their scale was 81 for the Samsung PN50A550 and 80 for the Pioneer Pro-111FD. They do not break down or indicate how they arrive at the score. There are 6 categories they identify for which they assign a value from Poor to Excellent. These are: HD Picture Quality, SD Picture Quality, DVD Picture Quality, Sound Quality, Remote Ease of Use, and On-screen Menu Ease of Use. The Pioneer got top ratings (Excellent) on the first three, as did the Sammy. The Pioneer and the Sammy both got Very Good on Sound Quality. The Pioneer got Very Good on the last two and the Sammy got Excellent. Very Good is one notch below excellent. Basically the Sammy outscored the Pioneer on ease of use, menus and the remote as far as I can see.

Reading the brief text of the review, they still indicate that the Pioneer had better blacks. In the Sammy text they faulted the picture quality for being too light sometimes in dark scenes and a bit dim and for not being able to adjust the colors accurately enough with SD and DVD. They preferred the Pioneer for brightness.

Remember, neither set was calibrated to ISF standards.

Folks,

Just in case you don't know: when the batch of TVs come into our labs, we take a good while optimizing their pictures. The out-of-box settings are not used. We also take readings with chroma- and light-measuring instruments. This ensures we see the best grayscale and color accuracy, and most neutral image possible. We repeat the process for all three signal types (480i, 480p, 1080i) - since the optimization can often differ. We use the user-accessible controls for all this, not service menus. Only after assuring ourselves that each sample is optimized, we have panelists judge the picture qualities. We use several video clips which were chosen to reveal any possible weaknesses in TVs. We have the same Reference TVs setup & running in the labs so the comparisons are as consistent over time & batches as possible.

I think this is pretty exhaustive and a great deal for our readers, considering the quantity we report on. But I truly do like to hear honest critique on what aspects could be improved. We do read a lot of feedback from readers, and the valuable comments have influenced on our processes.

I think, critique is often given without knowledge of the whole testing & publishing process (which is understandable). That is why we open our labs for visitors each year in October for anyone to see, hear, & ask about it all. In 2008 the Annual Meeting & Lab Tours was on Oct. 25.

Rich Sulin
Program Leader, Electronics
Consumers Union, Consumer Reports
Yonkers, NY

I can't post it because I don't want to get in trouble with CR. They will come after anyone who posts their copyrighted material. I will recap the reviews.

The score on their scale was 81 for the Samsung PN50A550 and 80 for the Pioneer Pro-111FD. They do not break down or indicate how they arrive at the score. There are 6 categories they identify for which they assign a value from Poor to Excellent. These are: HD Picture Quality, SD Picture Quality, DVD Picture Quality, Sound Quality, Remote Ease of Use, and On-screen Menu Ease of Use. The Pioneer got top ratings (Excellent) on the first three, as did the Sammy. The Pioneer and the Sammy both got Very Good on Sound Quality. The Pioneer got Very Good on the last two and the Sammy got Excellent. Very Good is one notch below excellent. Basically the Sammy outscored the Pioneer on ease of use, menus and the remote as far as I can see.

Reading the brief text of the review, they still indicate that the Pioneer had better blacks. In the Sammy text they faulted the picture quality for being too light sometimes in dark scenes and a bit dim and for not being able to adjust the colors accurately enough with SD and DVD. They preferred the Pioneer for brightness.

Remember, neither set was calibrated to ISF standards.

They only use the "user accessible controls" to adjust settings. That is how their program leader describes how they go about preparing the panels for ratings reviews. To me that is pathetic. That sort of sloppy imprecision, on their set up approach, may be good enough for low budget items, but for very expensive, top of the line evaluations and recommendations, it is unacceptable. Since they are not willing to use the full tuning tools that the manufacturers provide to fully optimize the displays, then all CR is doing is slightly better than a person going into a store, and fiddling with the settings.

I can't post it because I don't want to get in trouble with CR. They will come after anyone who posts their copyrighted material. I will recap the reviews.

The score on their scale was 81 for the Samsung PN50A550 and 80 for the Pioneer Pro-111FD. They do not break down or indicate how they arrive at the score.
Remember, neither set was calibrated to ISF standards.

You forgot to mention that in the 60 inch category the Samsung also beat the Pioneer. The Samsung PN58A550 beat the Pio PDP-6020FD.

I agree with JazzGuys assessment. CR infers that the Pioneer wins solely on PQ, but 'all in' the Samsung is a very user friendly product for their type of testing (no professional ISF calibration). Also remember that for the vast majority of folks ISF calibratation is not done. I happen to love CR. I tend to agree with their conclusions and use their reviews as a guide in many purchases.

*Sidebar: The only bias I have seen over the years is against American based car companies. And even that is starting to change over the past year. Just an opinion but if folks want the American economy to do well they should do their part and buy from American companies... an epiphany, huh? Quality being equal, every product you buy sourced from overseas just reinforces the decision by companies to further outsource jobs in the U.S. to low cost countries. Big shocker this comes full circle and screws those who helped it happen, you and I.*

Back on topic. For this specific review I agree with all the ratings BUT for the Pioneer not being on top. Really there is no competition for the Pioneers. That said I do agree with their Quick Pics which take price into consideration.

Though I don't typically reference CR, glad to see they've come to recognize what some of us have known for some time. :cool:

Folks,

Just in case you don't know: when the batch of TVs come into our labs, we take a good while optimizing their pictures. The out-of-box settings are not used. We also take readings with chroma- and light-measuring instruments. This ensures we see the best grayscale and color accuracy, and most neutral image possible. We repeat the process for all three signal types (480i, 480p, 1080i) - since the optimization can often differ. We use the user-accessible controls for all this, not service menus. Only after assuring ourselves that each sample is optimized, we have panelists judge the picture qualities. We use several video clips which were chosen to reveal any possible weaknesses in TVs. We have the same Reference TVs setup & running in the labs so the comparisons are as consistent over time & batches as possible.
Why don't you guys test for 720p and 1080p also? Just curious. Especially 1080p since thats what the native resolution for most sets today at the 50" + range.
Although I'd need to read the review for myself I would not have a problem with this review at all. And I am a Pioneer Elite owner. I know from over the years that CR takes a number of things in consideration when they decide what is the best. But I tend to , when I did read the publication, to look at the elements that I considered most important to me. In this case PQ wasn't the only factor in CR's decision, from what another poster stated, but it was THE most important thing for me. I could care less if the remote was purple and the menu fonts looked like children writing with crayons as long as the PQ was excellent thats all that I cared about.

You forgot to mention that in the 60 inch category the Samsung also beat the Pioneer. The Samsung PN58A550 beat the Pio PDP-6020FD.

And you forgot to mention that none of the sets were professionally calibrated, even though you have complained for the past few months about the Samsung not being calibrated at that vendor shoot out, that you are still upset about.

Funny how that works isn't it; When the uncalibrated results favor the Samsung, then you love them, but when they do not, well then..........Turns out that you are just as much a Samsung partisan as those Pioneer partisans that you keep rattling on and on about.:D

I believe that you are off topic.

DelJ



I believe the Eagles "Greatest Hits Vol. #1" is the best selling single album in America, while Michael Jackson's "Thriller" is the best selling single album in the world.

I believe that you are off topic.

DelJ

You do realize you are replying to a message that JacksonWalker posted almost a year ago, don't you? Just a guess, but somehow I don't think he will be checking this thread to see if anyone replied to him :)

And you forgot to mention that none of the sets were professionally calibrated,

The CR rep in the above post has already mentioned it. Read the posts for content next time so you don't embarass yourself again.

even though you have complained for the past few months about the Samsung not being calibrated at that vendor shoot out, that you are still upset about. Funny how that works isn't it; When the uncalibrated results favor the Samsung, then you love them, but when they do not, well then..........Turns out that you are just as much a Samsung partisan as those Pioneer partisans that you keep rattling on and on about.:D

Uh, you might not look like such an idiot if you would check the facts before shooting off your mouth. Fact is, that at the shootout, the Pioneer was properly calibrated while the Samsung was not. The calibrator was clueless on the Samsung. Turns out that you are unable to discern between a fair test and a poorly designed one. But Pioneer partisans such as you have never shown me any desire for a fair test, instead you just keep rattling on and on about how great your overrated and vastly overpriced TV is.

I think im going to trust a review site that actually reviews home theater gear on a daily basis and also goes into much further detail in each review vs. consumer reports..

Some Pioneer owners are upset with CR's lower ratings of the 5080 because it TRULY is underrated.

Take a look at this 2008 tv technology face off and REALLY read through the whole article and its various TV reviews in the roundup, It gives you a better idea on why the 5080 deserved much higher praise in CR, The tested ANSI Contrast ratio alone speaks volumes: http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

I suppose we can all pick sites that confirm our opinions.
By the way, I would be as equally concerned about Home Theater mag because they dubbed a Pioneer the perfect TV a year ago. I have never known anything built by man that was perfect. :cool:

Samsung sucks. It is garbage and not worth owning.

I did a quick inventory of people who own plasmas. Four people I know have Panasonic and all love it, very reliable and great picture. One has a Pioneer and loves it. One has a Samsung but nobody goes to his house because he is a weirdo.

Buying a Samsung is like having sex with a fat woman. She has the right parts but who wants them?

Buying a Samsung is like confusing McDonalds with a steakhouse.

Someone should do a scientific study to find out who buys Samsung. I would bet money most are first time Plasma virgins who didn't know Samsung sucks. These people don't learn until six months later when they visit a friend who has a Panasonic and they see what quality looks like.

They were warned. Consumer Reports told them Samsung sucks. If they don't listen then they will have to live with an inferior product for many months until it breaks down.


Lol, this was truly a great thread. Loads of laughs.

I must say, that as sick as it may sound, I actually miss Doogie LOL.

DOOGIE, WHERE ART THOUGH! (Can't remember how this is spelled:o)

No, he's getting ready for the sh*t about to hit the fan because Consumer Reports just rated the Samsung over the Pioneer plasma in their December issue. I call it proper planning on his part, unlike a recent AVS shootout in New York that was a joke because the Samsung plasma wasn't calibrated properly and it turned into a Pioneer marketing event instead of a unbiased test.

C'mon on man! We all know that Samsung plasmas have really come along this year, which is why "the uncalibrated" Samsung, still got the nod over the Panasonic.

You may hate, or dislike Pioneer products for whatever reason, but no one can deny that they are in fact the best FPD's on the market. If you have all three panels in your home, I am sure you would not disagree.

Whenever someone asks me "Which plasma do you think is the best bang for the buck?", my response never differs. It is always, "PNA760", which even Discopaul can attest to.

Where these CR ratings derail is price. Because of how price is weighted it skews the numbers making a great set appear worse than a lesser set. Many of us don't pay msrp (or even close) and buy based on picture quality above price. Other reviews rate the pio first for pq and give a caveat on price/msrp....more to the point for the members here but possibly not for the cr subs.

The CR rep in the above post has already mentioned it. Read the posts for content next time so you don't embarass yourself again.



Uh, you might not look like such an idiot if you would check the facts before shooting off your mouth. Fact is, that at the shootout, the Pioneer was properly calibrated while the Samsung was not. The calibrator was clueless on the Samsung. Turns out that you are unable to discern between a fair test and a poorly designed one. But Pioneer partisans such as you have never shown me any desire for a fair test, instead you just keep rattling on and on about how great your overrated and vastly overpriced TV is.

I think that all people who engage in Brand partisanship are to be pitied. Since you are a Samsung partisan, I pity you.:D

Where these CR ratings derail is price. Because of how price is weighted it skews the numbers making a great set appear worse than a lesser set. Many of us don't pay msrp (or even close) and buy based on picture quality above price. Other reviews rate the pio first for pq and give a caveat on price/msrp....more to the point for the members here but possibly not for the cr subs.

Price is not a criteria unless you're talking about "Best Buy". I've seen many CR ratings of different products and it's very common to see the top rated product not getting the "Best Buy" or "Recommended" because of price, but price doesn't prevent the product from ranking first.

I can imagine there are things that CR doesn't like that may not matter to people here, such as whether the number and types of inputs and whether a remote control is backlit, that would affect the score or ranking.

I think that all people who engage in Brand partisanship are to be pitied. Since you are a Samsung partisan, I pity you.:D

You insist upon embarrassing yourself! I am not a Samsung partisan. I have stated numerous times on this forum that the main TV in my house is a 61 inch Pioneer Pro Elite 118 RPTV. Non Hi-Def TV. Here's one post...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14370143#post14370143

and another..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11419105#post11419105

It still is the main TV in my house (family room) and gives me much pleasure when watching Philadelphia sports teams. Most times, you could almost swear that it is a high-def picture.

In our bedroom we have a Samsung 50 inch plasma. At our vacation house we have a 50 inch Samsung (bedroom) and a 52 in. Sony LCD in family room. I am agnostic when it comes to TV brands. I never bought Panasonic plasma when they were all the rage here at AVS because I thought they had a major tendency to suffer from clayface. Don't talk to me about great black levels (like the Panasonic had at the time) when the clayface was a real turnoff. In addition, at the time, the Pioneer plasma suffered from oversaturated colors like the electric green grass sports field that seemingly couldn't be dialed down. Because of this, as a major football and baseball fan, the Pioneer plasma was a real turn-off, and the inflated price point was the clincher. Right now, I do think that Samsung offers the best plasma by far in price performance, but I still won't give up my Pioneer RPTV that is now 12 years old.

You insist upon embarrassing yourself! I am not a Samsung partisan. I have stated numerous times on this forum that the main TV in my house is a 61 inch Pioneer Pro Elite 118 RPTV. Non Hi-Def TV. Here's one post...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14370143#post14370143

and another..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11419105#post11419105

It still is the main TV in my house (family room) and gives me much pleasure when watching Philadelphia sports teams. Most times, you could almost swear that it is a high-def picture.

In our bedroom we have a Samsung 50 inch plasma. At our vacation house we have a 50 inch Samsung (bedroom) and a 52 in. Sony LCD in family room. I am agnostic when it comes to TV brands. I never bought Panasonic plasma when they were all the rage here at AVS because I thought they had a major tendency to suffer from clayface. Don't talk to me about great black levels (like the Panasonic had at the time) when the clayface was a real turnoff. In addition, at the time, the Pioneer plasma suffered from oversaturated colors like the electric green grass sports field that seemingly couldn't be dialed down. Because of this, as a major football and baseball fan, the Pioneer plasma was a real turn-off, and the inflated price point was the clincher. Right now, I do think that Samsung offers the best plasma by far in price performance, but I still won't give up my Pioneer RPTV that is now 12 years old.

You have gone on months long rants in support of poor picked upon Samsung. That makes you a Samsung partisan. You called me a Pioneer partisan. Go back and read my comments on that vendor shoot out thread, and see if you can start to get a clue. Anyone who is still ranting about that vendor marketing stunt, months later, as you are, has no sense of proportion. That is why I pity you, O ever vigilant Samsung defender. Get a grip on reality. :D

You insist upon embarrassing yourself! I am not a Samsung partisan. I have stated numerous times on this forum that the main TV in my house is a 61 inch Pioneer Pro Elite 118 RPTV. Non Hi-Def TV.

It still is the main TV in my house (family room) and gives me much pleasure when watching Philadelphia sports teams. Most times, you could almost swear that it is a high-def picture.

.

I had the 50" version of the exact same set and although it was nice for the time, it doesn't hold a candle to current sets, especially when viewing HD either in Blu Ray or over the air.

I agree with JazzGuys assessment. CR infers that the Pioneer wins solely on PQ, but 'all in' the Samsung is a very user friendly product for their type of testing (no professional ISF calibration). Also remember that for the vast majority of folks ISF calibratation is not done. I happen to love CR. I tend to agree with their conclusions and use their reviews as a guide in many purchases.

*Sidebar: The only bias I have seen over the years is against American based car companies. And even that is starting to change over the past year. Just an opinion but if folks want the American economy to do well they should do their part and buy from American companies... an epiphany, huh? Quality being equal, every product you buy sourced from overseas just reinforces the decision by companies to further outsource jobs in the U.S. to low cost countries. Big shocker this comes full circle and screws those who helped it happen, you and I.*

Back on topic. For this specific review I agree with all the ratings BUT for the Pioneer not being on top. Really there is no competition for the Pioneers. That said I do agree with their Quick Pics which take price into consideration.

I own a Panasonic 50" plasma, Sony LCD and the Sammy 5084 and I think the Sammy is just as good as the Panasonic. I looked at the Pio when first deciding on the Samsung, but I couldn't justify the $1000 price difference. And in regards to American cars, not to get off topic, but as soon as American car manufacturers build a better product by using better materials, tighter tolerance specifications and increase their dealer experience and service levels, I refuse to give them my money. I buy the product, experience and service.

I have had great experiences with Samsung and Panasonic products and service, I have had good experience with Sony product and poor experience with their service.

You have gone on months long rants in support of poor picked upon Samsung. That makes you a Samsung partisan. You called me a Pioneer partisan. Go back and read my comments on that vendor shoot out thread, and see if you can start to get a clue. Anyone who is still ranting about that vendor marketing stunt, months later, as you are, has no sense of proportion. That is why I pity you, O ever vigilant Samsung defender. Get a grip on reality. :D

Months long rants? I've only made 290 posts in 5 years. How about you? As for reality, the reality is that the Samsung stacks up well against the Pioneer ignoring the price and when you include price, it's no contest. Pure, plain and simple, so that even YOU can understand it. Get a clue, pal. In regards to the compromised AVS shootout in New York, I mentioned it here in preparation for the Pio religious disciples for when they come on here and start trashing CR and it's testing methods.

Months long rants? I've only made 290 posts in 5 years. How about you? As for reality, the reality is that the Samsung stacks up well against the Pioneer ignoring the price and when you include price, it's no contest. Pure, plain and simple, so that even YOU can understand it. Get a clue, pal. In regards to the compromised AVS shootout in New York, I mentioned it here in preparation for the Pio religious disciples for when they come on here and start trashing CR and it's testing methods.Do you think it was a pioneer rep that was calibrating all of the displays... NO, it was kevin miller, who is a respected calibrator. Those displays were calibrated quite well, and the biggest difference between the 111 and the A650 were the blacks, which were quite noticeable to everyone there.

As for reality, the reality is that the Samsung stacks up well against the Pioneer ignoring the price and when you include price, it's no contest. Pure, plain and simple,...

Agreed! :cool:

Months long rants? I've only made 290 posts in 5 years. How about you? As for reality, the reality is that the Samsung stacks up well against the Pioneer ignoring the price and when you include price, it's no contest. Pure, plain and simple, so that even YOU can understand it. Get a clue, pal. In regards to the compromised AVS shootout in New York, I mentioned it here in preparation for the Pio religious disciples for when they come on here and start trashing CR and it's testing methods.

So you admit that you are still ranting about that event, and your reason for doing so was to defend Samsung from imaginary attacks that had yet to be made, except in your fantasy world.

That single store vendor shoot out was months ago. You are still ranting about that single vendor promotion stunt. Get a grip. You are at least as obsessed about the subject, as those, mostly mythical, Pioneer strawmen that you keep erecting, as an excuse to keep name calling and blowing a gasket. You are acting just like those you keep complaining about.:D

And in regards to American cars, not to get off topic, but as soon as American car manufacturers build a better product by using better materials, tighter tolerance specifications and increase their dealer experience and service levels, I refuse to give them my money. I buy the product, experience and service.

I prefer to get off topic as this thread is too old and boring now for anyone to care. Look at JD Power, CR, and Car & Driver. All say that GM and Ford now put out equally good quality to Toyota (I concede Chrysler cannot compete), and all while giving you more equipment standard, with style. I say this because an uneducated consumer is gullable. To prove my point, for A/V equip you come here to educate yourself or others. I just believe buying a car deserves the same scrutiny. Heron25 may have had a bad experience in the past, but that shouldn't determine his choice today. Afterall, Samsumg HDTVs were not a high end brand two years ago...does that mean you wouldn't consider one now?

Man I want a Pio Elite though. It would go so well with my other piano gloss black equip.

actually car shopped this summer and considered american cars, japanese cars and euro cars. Still had the same experience. American car manufacturers use recycled steel, have the loosest tolerance requirements in the auto industry and still use lower cost materials for interior use. And the dealership experience still leaves a lot to the imagination.

Samsung became a better electronics manufacturer because they took what the japanese did for so many years succesfully and did it at the same level for cheaper. I have a Samsung and a Panasonic- I don't expect the Samsung to be on the same level as the Pioneer sets, for example. But I expect it to be a very good tv for the price I paid. I wouldn't buy a honda and expect to have the same level of luxury and performance as a Mercedes or BMW. I expect it to be as good as any other Honda on the market. Samsung is the upper-middle class of plasmas, along with Panasonic, and Pioneer is the upper-class of plasmas. Hence the price difference.

Just my opinion about the tv's of course. The auto stuff is fact if you care to do some research.

Good analogy on the tvs heron25. I agree with it. It shows how a company not historically as good can use benchmarking and continuous improvement to make it's mark down the road. Hopefully Samsung continues the improvement to pass Panasonic decidedly (or the other way around for all I care, as long as they keep the rate of improvements and price decreases coming!)

To your point on cars. I agree overall. However the American brands do have specific models (the newer ones) that do compete on all that you like. That is fact. Just as Volkswagen a prior quality stickler can fall off its pedestal, so can a GM track it's way back up.