and it scored a 68

worse then


LG 50PC5D score = 72
Vizio JV50P score = 72
Vizio P50HDTV score = 71

here are the top 4 again

1st,,Pan......TH-50PZ700U ..score = 81

2nd Pan......TH-50PX75U ..score = 78

3rd Samsung........ HP-T5064 score = 76


4th Pioneer...PDP-5080HD score = 73

so that outspoken vizio guy who says his is better then pannies can now say his is better the sammies......well,..at least the 5084...

can anyone post the review?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/televisions/hdtv/lcd-tvs/reports/lcd-vs.-plasma-tvs/overview/lcd-vs-plasma-tvs-ov.htm

Very surprising. I believe the black levels of the Vizio and LG are nowhere near the Samsung or Panasonic or better yet the Pioneer. I don't know how their rating system is used. Price may be an influencing factor.

Chris

Consumer Reports is the last place I would look at to find an HDTV. Their reviewers are NOT A/V specialists or even enthusiasts.

If you want to find a good toaster, go to Consumer reports. If you want to buy an HDTV, look elsewhere.

With the Pioneer 5080 scoring a 73, I'd say that the Samsung measures up quite nicely. I don't regret my purchase at all.

With the Pioneer 5080 scoring a 73, I'd say that the Samsung measures up quite nicely. I don't regret my purchase at all.It sounds as if you need a magazine to justify what you purchased. Not good.

As been said before, CR is a joke for reviews and should only be used to rate reliability.

It sounds as if you need a magazine to justify what you purchased. Not good.

WTF? My Samsung 5084 scores a 68, the Pioneer scores a 73 and I need magazine to justify my purchase? I don't get your point.

WTF? My Samsung 5084 scores a 68, the Pioneer scores a 73 and I need magazine to justify my purchase? I don't get your point." I'd say that the Samsung measures up quite nicely. I don't regret my purchase at all."

As has also been said before, CR is not a joke for reviews but appreciated by way more than the naysayers. Zarano, you boldly highlight that CR's reviewers are not AV specialists. or even enthusiasts. Sounds like a statement based on some kind of inside information. Do you know any of the CR reviewers or read any information as to their credentials?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/televisions/hdtv/lcd-tvs/reports/lcd-vs.-plasma-tvs/overview/lcd-vs-plasma-tvs-ov.htm

For those of us who don't subscribe, can somebody summarize what CR didn't like about the Sammy?

As has also been said before, CR is not a joke for reviews but appreciated by way more than the naysayers. Zarano, you boldly highlight that CR's reviewers are not AV specialists. or even enthusiasts. Sounds like a statement based on some kind of inside information. Do you know any of the CR reviewers or read any information as to their credentials?CR is great for reliability numbers. They are piss poor for actual reviews. Of course this is my opinion and it comes from years of "CR reading" experiences.

IMO, if you want competent reviews for A/V equipment, you need to look at HT Mag, Sound & Vision, and A/V Mag.

5084

Highs

Very good picture quality across the board. Makes the most of its 1080p resolution, reproducing very fine detail. Deep, stable blacks don't vary in brightness with different types of content. Separate RGB-level adjustments allow you to fine-tune colors. It did a good job smoothing out jagged edges in movies and other film-based content. On-screen menu is very easy to navigate. Long 24-month part warranty and labor warranty, with in-home service.

Lows

Image is not as bright as the better plasmas and is slightly lacking in contrast. In the darkest scenes, images were grainy and unnatural-looking.

Bottom Line

This Samsung set, which comes with a swivel stand, has excellent picture detail that makes the most of its 1080p resolution. Picture quality across the board was very good, notably for color accuracy and deep black.

here are the top 4 again

1st,,Pan......TH-50PZ700U ..score = 81
2nd Pan......TH-50PX75U ..score = 78
3rd Samsung........ HP-T5064 score = 76
4th Pioneer...PDP-5080HD score = 73

I looked at that 5064 and ruled it out due to the judder issue, which was quite obvious in the store. How could CR recommend that one above the Pioneer?

Anyway we have both Samsung FP-T5884 and Panasonic TH-50PX77U in our family. Each has its stong points but nothing that would set one far apart from the other. They are both excellent TVs capable of producing comparable pictures.

As has also been said before, CR is not a joke for reviews but appreciated by way more than the naysayers. Zarano, you boldly highlight that CR's reviewers are not AV specialists. or even enthusiasts. Sounds like a statement based on some kind of inside information. Do you know any of the CR reviewers or read any information as to their credentials?


CR is in the business of reviewing. I don't have to know anyone there or any of their credentials to know that they cannot have a specialist for every item they review. They give generic reviews based on what the average consumer may want. Most people that spend 5 grand on a TV are not average consumers, but rather enthusiasts who demand more than just value per dollar and warranty info. CR reviewers are journalists, and nothing more. That is not to say that their reviews are not valuable to some, and I certainly do not consider them a "joke".

Obviously they didn't take into account Visio's dismal out of warranty repair track record. Vizio will repair the TV after warranty but the shipping and repair costs are about the same as a new TV. Vizio is basically a throwaway TV.

http://hdguru.com/?p=107

Update:

http://hdguru.com/?p=108

As been said before, CR is a joke for reviews and should only be used to rate reliability.

Not even those, probably. I wonder what sample size they use for this reliability survey research? I know for autos, they simply base reliability ratings on the responses they get from their readership that bothers to send in the questionnaire, fan boys and all.

In the end, one needs to go and compare and judge for oneself. I do like CR's ability to clearly and succinctly explain the state of a product category, as well as provide user-friendly descriptions of functions and features, et al.

Well, I guess this means a 5084 and kuro wont be in my future anytime soon :D

CR is in the business of reviewing. I don't have to know anyone there or any of their credentials to know that they cannot have a specialist for every item they review. They give generic reviews based on what the average consumer may want. Most people that spend 5 grand on a TV are not average consumers, but rather enthusiasts who demand more than just value per dollar and warranty info. CR reviewers are journalists, and nothing more. That is not to say that their reviews are not valuable to some, and I certainly do not consider them a "joke".
Sorry but I have to take issue with a couple of your statements.
1. I believe that all of the 720P plasmas reviewed were priced under $2000, including the Kuro. So the 5 grand above average enthusiasts you mention was not CR's target audience.
2. CR's reviewers are journalists, and nothing more? Somebody used highly sophisticated equipment to test these displays. Most likely well beyond the average "just a journalist" capabilities.

Guys and gals, just have fun with this and take this with a grain of salt. These reviews can provide some info but it shouldn't make the purchase decision for you. I am also including the "serious" magazine reviews as well.
As an example I remember over 20 years ago the Renault Alliance was the "Car of the Year" and was a Ten Best in the serious car magazines. Anyone familiar with these cars know that these were among the worst pieces of crap cars on the road :cool:

As has also been said before, CR is not a joke for reviews but appreciated by way more than the naysayers. Zarano, you boldly highlight that CR's reviewers are not AV specialists. or even enthusiasts. Sounds like a statement based on some kind of inside information. Do you know any of the CR reviewers or read any information as to their credentials?


Actually after looking closer at their "review" , I would say that CR is a joke. Those "ratings" they gave are a complete joke.

Sorry but I have to take issue with a couple of your statements.
1. I believe that all of the 720P plasmas reviewed were priced under $2000, including the Kuro. So the 5 grand above average enthusiasts you mention was not CR's target audience.
2. CR's reviewers are journalists, and nothing more? Somebody used highly sophisticated equipment to test these displays. Most likely well beyond the average "just a journalist" capabilities.

I was using "5 grand" as an example and not an exact amount. Most people interested in a Pioneer plasma are enthusiasts. They rated the Pioneer below the Samsung and the Panasonics. Anyone who knows anything about plasma's knows that is a joke.

I was using "5 grand" as an example and not an exact amount. Most people interested in a Pioneer plasma are enthusiasts. They rated the Pioneer below the Samsung and the Panasonics. Anyone who knows anything about plasma's knows that is a joke.

Taking this thought a bit further, sometimes these "ratings" include a value variable -- something tested might compare very favorably to the top-rated item, but CR drops it down in the ratings a few notches because of the price-of-admission variable.

I was using "5 grand" as an example and not an exact amount. Most people interested in a Pioneer plasma are enthusiasts. They rated the Pioneer below the Samsung and the Panasonics. Anyone who knows anything about plasma's knows that is a joke.

Anyone? Plenty of folks who know something about plasma's choose Panasonic and Samsung over Pioneer with price not being a factor. Many on this forum have said that when standing in front of these competing displays that they can see no difference at all. I looked closely at a 5064, 5080, and 6010 and from 3 feet and could not tell a difference and I knew pretty much what to look for.

the full review is a subscription so i don't suppose they'd appreciate anyone copying and pasting it, but to summarize...

the panasonic 1080p models were rated tops in 50 and 50+, the pioneer elites were not tested, only the 1366x768 pioneers.

the elite was listed as tops in the 42" category, but they didn't test the 50"+ elites.

i agree that it's a pretty shotty review. if the elite 42" was so much better than other 42s why not test the 50 and larger elites? probably because they tried to limit it to 5000 dollars or less, that's the only thing i can figure.

CR is great for reliability numbers. They are piss poor for actual reviews. Of course this is my opinion and it comes from years of "CR reading" experiences.

IMO, if you want competent reviews for A/V equipment, you need to look at HT Mag, Sound & Vision, and A/V Mag.

What are you Smoking? Those magazines take ad revenue from the very products they review. Consumer Reports does not take any advertising. I used to subscribe to Home Theater Magazine until they reviewed a Cary Audio Pre/Pro Amp combo with an advertisement and endorsement from Home Theater in the same issue the product was reviewed. Cary Audio glowed about their review in Home Theater Magazine in the same issue it was reviewed in. If that's not selling ads, I don't know what is.

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.

I said it months ago and I will say it again. I told you so. I was not impressed with the Pioneer 5080 or the Samsung. Panasonic makes the best plasmas by performance and cost.

AVS forum is biased by forum sponsors selling Pioneer plasmas and Pioneer fans who only see perfection in Pioneer when perfection does not reflect the picture quality.

I have always said Pioneer Elites are excellent but very expensive.

It's another clean sweep for Panasonic. The main reason for the big price drops in plasma pricing is directly due to Panasonic and Vizio with their pricing wars.

Not even those, probably. I wonder what sample size they use for this reliability survey research? I know for autos, they simply base reliability ratings on the responses they get from their readership that bothers to send in the questionnaire, fan boys and all.

In the end, one needs to go and compare and judge for oneself. I do like CR's ability to clearly and succinctly explain the state of a product category, as well as provide user-friendly descriptions of functions and features, et al.

Every year, Consumer Reports sends out an annual questioneer to all their subscribers. The questioneer is highly detailed and can take hours to complete. Consumer Reports has well over 50% participation by it's subscribers.

The reviewers at Consumer Reports are not journalists. They are a non profit publication that accepts no advertising dollars.

Compare this to the AV mags and AVS Forum which censors anything that would upset it's sponsors or ads at the top of the screen.

All of this hulaballoo does not even matter... I, as I am sure many of you, already own a 5084. Who cares what other think about it, TO LATE TO LATE:p

What are you Smoking? Those magazines take ad revenue from the very products they review. Consumer Reports does not take any advertising. I used to subscribe to Home Theater Magazine until they reviewed a Cary Audio Pre/Pro Amp combo with an advertisement and endorsement from Home Theater in the same issue the product was reviewed. Cary Audio glowed about their review in Home Theater Magazine in the same issue it was reviewed in. If that's not selling ads, I don't know what is.

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.

I said it months ago and I will say it again. I told you so. I was not impressed with the Pioneer 5080 or the Samsung. Panasonic makes the best plasmas by performance and cost.

AVS forum is biased by forum sponsors selling Pioneer plasmas and Pioneer fans who only see perfection in Pioneer when perfection does not reflect the picture quality.

I have always said Pioneer Elites are excellent but very expensive.

It's another clean sweep for Panasonic. The main reason for the big price drops in plasma pricing is directly due to Panasonic and Vizio with their pricing wars.Hilarious post.

Compare this to the AV mags and AVS Forum which censors anything that would upset it's sponsors or ads at the top of the screen.If you feel so passionate about dissing AVS, why are you here? You're condoning a public forum that you willfully post on? Yet you want point the finger and say "hey this mag and/or message forum is not credible as they profit from ads". You know how silly that sounds?

All of this hulaballoo does not even matter... I, as I am sure many of you, already own a 5084. Who cares what other think about it, TO LATE TO LATE:pAnd that is all that should matter.

Nope, I own the Panasonic 50-PX600U which was rated number 3 only out of 17 in last years consumer reports issue only beaten by the larger 58" panny and a Hitachi of all things.

Of course my 600U is far superior to the 5084 and probably superior to the 5085 as well. You can't beat Panasonic for price and performance. You Pioneer cult members can keep praising you Pioneers but you paid way too much.

What are you Smoking? Those magazines take ad revenue from the very products they review. Consumer Reports does not take any advertising. I used to subscribe to Home Theater Magazine until they reviewed a Cary Audio Pre/Pro Amp combo with an advertisement and endorsement from Home Theater in the same issue the product was reviewed. Cary Audio glowed about their review in Home Theater Magazine in the same issue it was reviewed in. If that's not selling ads, I don't know what is.

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.

I said it months ago and I will say it again. I told you so. I was not impressed with the Pioneer 5080 or the Samsung. Panasonic makes the best plasmas by performance and cost.

AVS forum is biased by forum sponsors selling Pioneer plasmas and Pioneer fans who only see perfection in Pioneer when perfection does not reflect the picture quality.

I have always said Pioneer Elites are excellent but very expensive.

It's another clean sweep for Panasonic. The main reason for the big price drops in plasma pricing is directly due to Panasonic and Vizio with their pricing wars.


So by your logic every AV review site must be getting paid off by Pioneer by giving them great reviews, including tests which show that Pioneer's black levels are nearly perfect.

I don't own a Pioneer (yet), and have not decided if my next TV will be a Panny, Samsung or Pioneer. But to say that the Panasonic is better basd on a CR review is foolish.

Nope, I own the Panasonic 50-PX600U which was rated number 3 only out of 17 in last years consumer reports issue only beaten by the larger 58" panny and a Hitachi of all things.

Of course my 600U is far superior to the 5084 and probably superior to the 5085 as well. You can't beat Panasonic for price and performance. You Pioneer cult members can keep praising you Pioneers but you paid way too much.Ya, ok. I own a 9th gen Pansonic plasma myself. The difference between me and you is I am not ashamed to admit when another brand does something better than what I own.

A properly calibrated Samsung has much more accurate colors than a Panasonic. Samsung plasmas also do not float blacks like the 9G Panasonics do. And don't even say you don't see the floating blacks either. You can easily see them with a non-anamorphic DVD in a low-light view environment.

If you feel so passionate about dissing AVS, why are you here? You're condoning a public forum that you willfully post on? Yet you want point the finger and say "hey this mag and/or message forum is not credible as they profit from ads". You know how silly that sounds?

I'm with the coalition of freedom fighters. I condone nothing. This is not a public forum, it's a media magazine disguised as a forum.

I'm just here to tell all the Pioneer fanboys, I told you so witht the 5085 being put in it's place by Consumer Reports.

I'm with the coalition of freedom fighters. I condone nothing. This is not a public forum, it's a media magazine disguised as a forum.

I'm just here to tell all the Pioneer fanboys, I told you so witht the 5085 being put in it's place by Consumer Reports.You're right. It's not a public forum. It's actually a members only forum that is open to the public and doesn't charge the public to be a member. Can you say the same for CR....freedom fighter?

So by your logic every AV review site must be getting paid off by Pioneer by giving them great reviews, including tests which show that Pioneer's black levels are nearly perfect.

I don't own a Pioneer (yet), and have not decided if my next TV will be a Panny, Samsung or Pioneer. But to say that the Panasonic is better basd on a CR review is foolish.

You're a noob. Congrats on your 11th post. You know nothing. It's not just the plasma tv payola that corrupts the minds of readers. It's the entire electronics market that pays magazines and internet sites for positive reviews. The worst offender is CNet.com. They have no expertise in anything. Just a bunch of Stanford and Berkeley english major grads writing reviews.

You're right. It's not a public forum. It's actually a members only forum that is open to the public and doesn't charge the public to be a member. Can you say the same for CR....freedom fighter?


Not true. AVS Forum has a AVS Special Member or Gold membership of some sort that is paid for. You and I are too cheap to pay the membership fee.

I'm just here to tell all the Pioneer fanboys, I told you so witht the 5085 being put in it's place by Consumer Reports.

Let's get real. There is no bigger Fanboy than a Panasonic Fanboy. They run into Best Buy waving their Consumer Reports article like sheep to slaughter. Grainy picture, motion artifacts, crummy SD performance---no problem, Consumer Reports says it's great so it must be. Cover up the label in any video store and panny would never sell a plasma

Let's get real. There is no bigger Fanboy than a Panasonic Fanboy. They run into Best Buy waving their Consumer Reports article like sheep to slaughter. Grainy picture, motion artifacts, crummy SD performance---no problem, Consumer Reports says it's great so it must be. Cover up the label in any video store and panny would never sell a plasma

How assumptive are you? I would never buy a plasma from BestBuy. I bought my Panasonic Plasma from Newegg.com for $1,500. That's the top of the line Panny with Cable Card and PC input. It also accepts 1080p signals.

Not true. AVS Forum has a AVS Special Member or Gold membership of some sort that is paid for. You and I are too cheap to pay the membership fee.Me choosing not get the AVS gold membership has nothing to do with financials. I found no personal benefits for myself getting it. Plain and simple.

Now on to you....

Thoroughly reviewing your post history, you seem to have an ego complex that requires constant reassurances that your current purchases are for superior to what you previously owned (Denon vs Emotiva). That has spilled over into saying that your purchasing decisions are also superior to others. You continually attempt to call others fanboys, yet you show all the symptoms of one (per your entire post history).

Everyone has the right to believe in something....or themselves in your case. However no one has the right to judge another's decisions.

You keep talking of Pioneer fanboys, yet you probably would be the most vocal one if you owned a Pioneer.....especially an Elite.

How assumptive are you? I would never buy a plasma from BestBuy. I bought my Panasonic Plasma from Newegg.com for $1,500. That's the top of the line Panny with Cable Card and PC input. It also accepts 1080p signals.It only accepts 1080p/60 which is a good thing as the 9G consumer line doesn't do very well with 3:2 pulldown.

How assumptive are you? I would never buy a plasma from BestBuy. I bought my Panasonic Plasma from Newegg.com for $1,500. That's the top of the line Panny with Cable Card and PC input. It also accepts 1080p signals.

Nice Ad Hominem argument. Never said you purchased at BB, just that you are a fanboy

Me choosing not get the AVS gold membership has nothing to do with financials. I found no personal benefits for myself getting it. Plain and simple.

Now on to you....

Thoroughly reviewing your post history, you seem to have an ego complex that requires constant reassurances that your current purchases are for superior to what you previously owned (Denon vs Emotiva). That has spilled over into saying that your purchasing decisions are also superior to others. You continually attempt to call others fanboys, yet you show all the symptoms of one (per your entire post history).

Everyone has the right to believe in something....or themselves in your case. However no one has the right to judge another's decisions.

You keep talking of Pioneer fanboys, yet you probably would be the most vocal on if you owned one.....especially an Elite.

Thanks for your opinion Mr. Freud. Yet you've got almost 6,000 posts and I've been here longer than you. I'm not the one who needs to be heard on average several times a day. I seek the best value for the money. Expensive items provide diminished returns. Emotiva makes solid products, so I bought the value pre/pro and amp.

I don't need reassurance. I'm the best!

Thanks for your opinion Mr. Freud. Yet you've got almost 6,000 posts and I've been here longer than you. I'm not the one who needs to be heard on average several times a day. I seek the best value for the money. Expensive items provide diminished returns. Emotiva makes solid products, so I bought the value pre/pro and amp.

I don't need reassurance. I'm the best!Case and point

It only accepts 1080p/60 which is a good thing as the 9G consumer line doesn't do very well with 3:2 pulldown.

There's no evidence of this in your absence of evidence. Your statements are heresay and filled with malice for Pansonic.

I am a golden god!

There's no evidence of this in your absence of evidence. Your statements are heresay and filled with malice for Pansonic.

I am a golden god!Would you like a link to the HDGuru site where the information is located? Nevermind...here you go:

"Following up on Nick’s question from Dec. 1 –

1.Does the Panasonic 50PX600U pass the deinterlace and 3:2 pulldown test?

2. Does the Pioneer 5070HD allow display at 72 HZ ?

1. Yes (deinterlace); no (3:2 test)

2. Yes

The HD Guru"


http://hdguru.com/?p=18


Now are you going to say that Gary Merson is a fraud????

Would you like a link to the HDGuru site where the information is located? Nevermind...here you go:

"Following up on Nick’s question from Dec. 1 –

1.Does the Panasonic 50PX600U pass the deinterlace and 3:2 pulldown test?

2. Does the Pioneer 5070HD allow display at 72 HZ ?

1. Yes (deinterlace); no (3:2 test)

2. Yes

The HD Guru"


http://hdguru.com/?p=18


Now are you going to say that Gary Merson is a fraud????


I don't have to, you just said it yourself. Consumer Reports is the bible. The internet is full of experts without degrees from MIT. Everyone here is an expert.

I don't have to, you just said it yourself. Consumer Reports is the bible. The internet is full of experts without degrees from MIT. Everyone here is an expert.Case and point...again.

Case and point...again.Ditto! His proclamations say it all. Why bother arguing with God

You're a noob. Congrats on your 11th post. You know nothing. It's not just the plasma tv payola that corrupts the minds of readers. It's the entire electronics market that pays magazines and internet sites for positive reviews. The worst offender is CNet.com. They have no expertise in anything. Just a bunch of Stanford and Berkeley english major grads writing reviews.

Yeah you're right, I know nothing. My mind is so corrupted by the AVS forum led by the Evil Pioneer Empire that the Pioneer Plasma's somehow look better to me than the Panny's, Vizio's, etc.

You're a noob. Congrats on your 11th post. You know nothing. It's not just the plasma tv payola that corrupts the minds of readers. It's the entire electronics market that pays magazines and internet sites for positive reviews. The worst offender is CNet.com. They have no expertise in anything. Just a bunch of Stanford and Berkeley english major grads writing reviews.

wow... just... wow...

what do we have here, an escapee from the hdm wars or something? :rolleyes:

i, for one, am glad i don't live in a world of paranoia where everything is determined by payoffs and underhanded dealings...

Consumer reports compared the Pioneer 768p 5080 model with the Panasonic 50" Z700 1080p model. Bottom line is that they should have compared the Pan 50" 1080p with the 1080p Pioneer, but CR is dumb so they did not. If they did, CR probably still would have rated the Pioneer lower then the Panasonic because of the big price tag on the Pioneer and would have given the Panasonic the overall value award.

I gave up on Consumer Reports for TV ratings years ago when they were testing 25 inch & 27 inch tube sets when they stated that most of the people rating the sets could not tell if a set they were looking at was a 25 inch model or a 27 inch model when it came to screen size. :(

Just incase you forgot, all 25 inch sets had round corners & the 27 inch sets had square corners. So they were & are not using "EXPERTS" to rate TVs.

From what someone told me, don't know if it's true or not, but they go around the office & pick a bunch of people to rate the sets against each other & against a master "Pro Monitor" displaying a calibrated so-called perfect picture. In otherwords just your average viewer.

For the average person that knows nothing about certain products though you probably can't go wrong with most of their ratings.

Consumer reports compared the Pioneer 768p 5080 model with the Panasonic 50" Z700 1080p model. Bottom line is that they should have compared the Pan 50" 1080p with the 1080p Pioneer, but CR is dumb so they did not. If they did, CR probably still would have rated the Pioneer lower then the Panasonic because of the big price tag on the Pioneer and would have given the Panasonic the overall value award.

You didn't read the article very well. The Panasonic 75U also beat the Pioneer 5080. The 1080p panny took top honors. Consumer reports did in fact compare 720p sets head to head and panasonic wins.

I should also note not all forum sponsors here are bad. Monoprice.com and HSUResearch are wonderful companies as well as Oppo, Yamaha, Runco, JVC and Optoma.

My main criticism is specifically for the forum sponsors who sell plasmas here. The drop shippers that have no inventory, but claim expertise. The guys that used to sell computers, cars etc. and now sell plasmas.

wow... just... wow...

what do we have here, an escapee from the hdm wars or something? :rolleyes:

i, for one, am glad i don't live in a world of paranoia where everything is determined by payoffs and underhanded dealings...

I envy you. You have the ability to see life through rose colored glasses. It's not just the AV market, it's everywhere in government. Boeing lost a big tanker deal years ago for military 767's with military officials convicted of approving for overpayed lease prices. The deal was nixed and people went to prison. Why do you think Boeing's headquarters are now in the windy city of Chicago? Who do you think brokered the deal? Crooked Illinois politicians who now claim Boeing as one of their many fortune 500 companies.

The music industry has paid over $1 billion in price fixing fines over the last 10years but the music industry will have you believe piracy is the reason for the steady decline in music sales.

I guess I'm just paranoid!

I guess I'm just paranoid!

Word

Hilarious post.

Not only that, but as I've stated here before...

HDMI has been out now for at least 3 years (2004) and still Consumer Reports, in their TV display rankings, uses only the Component input for the "DVD image quality" ratings! Yet HDMI is the main input for viewing non cable/satellite content (and most displays now have between 2 to 4 HDMI inputs).

And this can affect the rankings. For example, SHARP is one of the best LCD brands, but if viewing DVD (Blu-ray, or HD DVD) thru their Component inputs, they usually "fail" to deinterlace film-signal content [do not pick up the 3:2 pulldown sequence]. But the Sharp models have no problem with this in the HDMI inputs, and "pass" the deinterlacing tests.

So, Consumer Reports value in reviews is limited, and can't be relied on with any certainty because of their own review/ranking criteria, which IMO leans heavily to "value" (or actual prices) in addition to their opinions as to the quality of each display.

I envy you. You have the ability to see life through rose colored glasses. It's not just the AV market, it's everywhere in government. Boeing lost a big tanker deal years ago for military 767's with military officials convicted of approving for overpayed lease prices. The deal was nixed and people went to prison. Why do you think Boeing's headquarters are now in the windy city of Chicago? Who do you think brokered the deal? Crooked Illinois politicians who now claim Boeing as one of their many fortune 500 companies.

The music industry has paid over $1 billion in price fixing fines over the last 10years but the music industry will have you believe piracy is the reason for the steady decline in music sales.

I guess I'm just paranoid!

nope. i don't see it through rose-colored glasses. i understand and comprehend that not everything is on the straight and narrow. where i get off the bus (so to speak) is when someone insists that EVERYTHING is crooked... trust me... it's safe to say i'm no fan of large corporations and the way they operate... :)

This thread cracks me up!

This thread cracks me up!

The best entertainment I've had all week.

I haven't been here for very long, but I have been around technology and forums for some time and this thread clearly demonstrates fanboyism at its best.

I've seen (to name only a few):

Microsoft vs. Apple
Microsoft vs. Linux
XBox vs. PlayStation (pick your version)
iPod vs. Any other music player
HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray

And now (new to me) Panasonic vs. Pioneer

I think people need to take a step back and look at why they are getting so defensive. Is a piece of technology that will be obsolete within several years worth the anxiety?

Josh

The best entertainment I've had all week.

I haven't been here for very long, but I have been around technology and forums for some time and this thread clearly demonstrates fanboyism at its best.

I've seen (to name only a few):

Microsoft vs. Apple
Microsoft vs. Linux
XBox vs. PlayStation (pick your version)
iPod vs. Any other music player
HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray

And now (new to me) Panasonic vs. Pioneer

I think people need to take a step back and look at why they are getting so defensive. Is a piece of technology that will be obsolete within several years worth the anxiety?

JoshFunny isn't it?

If you feel so passionate about dissing AVS, why are you here? You're condoning a public forum that you willfully post on? Yet you want point the finger and say "hey this mag and/or message forum is not credible as they profit from ads". You know how silly that sounds?

Why is he "dissing" AVS? Does AVS not charge companies to advertise on their website? Those magazines you listed are a complete joke and do nothing but write positive reviews for the companies that give them ad revenue. Telling the truth is not "dissing". I personally would not by a product based on anyone else's recommendation. If I had to buy based on reviews I would trust Consumer Reports recommendation way before I trusted reviews by any site that takes ad revenue.

So by your logic every AV review site must be getting paid off by Pioneer by giving them great reviews, including tests which show that Pioneer's black levels are nearly perfect.

I don't own a Pioneer (yet), and have not decided if my next TV will be a Panny, Samsung or Pioneer. But to say that the Panasonic is better basd on a CR review is foolish.

I agree with you about Panasonic being better based on CR review is foolish. I will be looking to purchase a 58-65 inch flat screen next year and I can promise you my decision will be based on buying 2-3 panels I am interested in and judging them in my own living room. Anybody buying a product based on reviews from any magazine or website including this one is foolish. I still say if I was forced to choose based on reviews, I would take Consumer Reports over any website or magazine that takes ad revenue.

At what point in time did black level make for the end all be all viewing experience? This is all Pioneer owners have with the 5085. Yet this year Consumer Reports rated their revolutionary product lower than last years model.

I've never heard so many people trash a ad free publication that's been around more than 30 years.

In the last 10 years something has changed with regards to reviews of every electronic item on the market. Very rarely if ever is any product compeletely trashed as being garbage. All electronics items are very good or excellent based on what all the reviews say.

There was a time when companies like Emerson and Goldstar now LG made terrible electronics.

Now we've got people buying Olevia and Maxent plasma displays which are joke.

If you bought a Pioneer, you paid too much. I still can't say I paid too much considering my Panasonic top of the line last generation only cost me $1,500 + my $26 wall mount from monoprice.

Plasma prices continue to drop like a rock. Deminished returns should count for something. On this forum people act as if a plasma will last forever without becoming obsolete. Before you know it, HDMI will be replaced with something new and we'll all have to buy new plasmas.

Nope, I own the Panasonic 50-PX600U which was rated number 3 only out of 17 in last years consumer reports issue only beaten by the larger 58" panny and a Hitachi of all things.

Of course my 600U is far superior to the 5084 and probably superior to the 5085 as well. You can't beat Panasonic for price and performance. You Pioneer cult members can keep praising you Pioneers but you paid way too much.

I guess we should all say UNCLE and buy Panny? Horse Poohey! I bought into it two years ago following the fanatic base here and found it inferior to an SXRD and my current 57" Sharp. Been there done that and never again - I found the 500U to be a POS in a sunny room with daytime washout and reflection city and with ZERO WoW factor in it's PQ and yellow dirty whites and no shadow details where an SXRD excels.

Different strokes for different folks and preferences which is why we have competition for our money and a Panasonic will never find a place here after failing to match the hype of the Panny fanbase of this forum. I guess we should dub this the Panasonic AVSForum and we give in to your opinion?

Yes, I guess we can thank Panny for bringing price structures down but if you think about it they controlled 40% of the market and they originally helped establish that price structure - competition has force it downward - Panny is being pushed by competition in LCD and PDP to restructure so I'd not give all the credit to the originator of the price structure since they controlled the market for so long - innovation and competition forces it and Panasonic is not alone in this game. If they still controlled the market and LCD hadn't grown you can bet the price structure would be quite the opposite.

I guess we should all say UNCLE and buy Panny? Horse Poohey! I bought into it two years ago following the fanatic base here and found it inferior to an SXRD and my current 57" Sharp. Been there done that and never again - I found the 500U to be a POS in a sunny room with daytime washout and reflection city and with ZERO WoW factor in it's PQ and yellow dirty whites and no shadow details where an SXRD excels.

I've heard this story many times but it dont hold to much weight as i think ANY plasma you probably would have to much reflection in the room. Also size wise a 50 plasma is pretty small compared to a sxrd, non reflective panel so i can easily see you being more impressed in the daytime with sxrd. Shadows on plasma in the daytime will be hard to see no? Now if you had a 58 panny plasma then your story would hold more weight :D At nightime critical viewing it's going to blow lcd-sxrd- away. PQ wise sxrd and lcd loses no contest. In the daytime with luxury windows i can see your point. :)

You guys are all nuts! I was hoping this thread would give me more insight on my upcoming purchase decisions:
p700: Nice set, top rated, but I did notice the contrast wasn't as great as other sets. Still, $2150 for a 1080p that should be fine for 10 yrs, a good buy.
p75u Okay, side by side with the p700, the 700 had slightly better colors, and the blacks were better, though black on black contrast seemed better with the 75. SInce the 75 is $800 less (at 1350), and should look fine in my home, is this the steal of the century.
s5084: The wild-card. I like the 2 year warranty, but I've seen 2 broken sammys recently on the floor (sears and cc). Sammy seems to have a bit more punch, but also seems to have a bit more noise. I hear that SD processing is not as good with sammy, but haven't been able to get any of the stores to run such a feed to the set for me.

So, why is it all these threads degrade to a 'you should be buying a pioneer' discussion. Seriously, we'd all be driving a 335i if we truly wanted the best sedan. Lets try and stick on topic here. I agree, the pioneers I've seen all look really good, but spending much over $2k for a television TODAY seems crazy. I'm even thinking if I grab the $1350 set today, what will I be able to get for $1350 in 3 years, at which point I can throw that set into the basement for the kids to play their WII on. Lets try and stay on topic, If we're comparing the a g35 to a tl, why bring something else into the competition.

THat being said, WHAT about the 5084 vs the panny's. Not 1 store I've been in has them side by side. For us looking at the 5084, the PIONEER is not our other choice!!

I guess I'm just paranoid!

Here you go, Hans http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

I will agree w/ westa...

The sammy does look pretty darn bright w/ the awesome BB feed.It's Brighter then both the panny and pio..

You can be easily led down the sammy path because of it..and if u didn't know the brands and they all had the same feed at BB i'm positive the sammy would be picked more then the others..

I don't think it makes up for the SD and sound though...

But first appearance sells.....and sammy has dat going fo dem

I will agree w/ westa...

The sammy does look pretty darn bright w/ the awesome BB feed.It's Brighter then both the panny and pio..

You can be easily led down the sammy path because of it..and if u didn't know the brands and they all had the same feed at BB i'm positive the sammy would be picked more then the others..

I don't think it makes up for the SD and sound though...

But first appearance sells.....and sammy has dat going fo dem

Who says the Samsung has bad SD? Pioneer is the best, but Samsung beats Panasonic, plus the Samsung has a crisper picture and less motion artifacts and blocking than the Panny. Stand within 3 feet of the Panny and look at all the crap that is going on in their picture. Put tape over the labels and no one would ever choose the Panasonic

This is the thread title: The Consumer Reports Jury is back...Samsung 5084...not glowing

Please explain what you mean by "Jury". How large was the panel of people that CR assigned to make the evaluations?

You didn't read the article very well. The Panasonic 75U also beat the Pioneer 5080. The 1080p panny took top honors. Consumer reports did in fact compare 720p sets head to head and panasonic wins.

I should also note not all forum sponsors here are bad. Monoprice.com and HSUResearch are wonderful companies as well as Oppo, Yamaha, Runco, JVC and Optoma.

My main criticism is specifically for the forum sponsors who sell plasmas here. The drop shippers that have no inventory, but claim expertise. The guys that used to sell computers, cars etc. and now sell plasmas.

I have not personally read the article but in previous article their reviews are usually simplistic ... they compare SD quality, HD quality, DVD quality, sound quality, remote ease of use, price, on-screen menu, and price.

I am not surprised that they ranked the Pioneer lower than the 75u. That is because the Pioneer costs 2x as much so they are going to knock it down. Without having looking at the review in detail, there is no way that the black levels and contrast on the $1500 Pana are superior to the Pioneer. I would think that for sure it lost out in price, maybe for remote or menu but no way PQ quality. One and I mean one review by CR and you put the 75U model on a pedestal and worship it. I think this is the only review or magazine that would put the 75 U above the 5080. If this justifies you buying the 75U then go for it.

Go to any video specialty store or even big box stores and they would laugh at the thought the 75U was superior in PQ.

I stopped reading CR in the early 70's when Julian Hirsch of Stereo review trashed them for their poor review standards for speakers. Hirsch was the last true unbiased reviewer of consumer/pro audio electronics. Its a shame that he never crossed over to the "dark side" of video.

Trust YOUR eyes not someone else's.

For what it is worth, I find the Pio and the Samsung to have pleasing pictures. To me the value is in the Samsung.

what would a pio/panny debate be w/o sammy?

sammy....what's up? ..or as sombody called them..samdung:D

what would a pio/panny debate be w/o sammy?

sammy....what's up? ..or as sombody called them..samdung:D

Yeah, this is coming from the guy that introduced Samsung into the title of the thread

lmao...

I didn't use the samdung verbage as a means to insult..I just thought it was funny...

I forgot who wrote it in another thread but when I read it the first time I laughed ...

so,..keep ur eggs in ur pants ......we all know that sammy makes an excellent 3rd rate product behind pio and panny...feel free to debate this w/ 100's of words as this was my intent of writing it....I don't care that much about the rebuttle..as my comment meant little.....I just want to see sammy boyism's squirm as they're late crashing the party of the thread hijack which was originally intended for them

lmao...

I didn't use the samdung verbage as a means to insult..I just thought it was funny...

I forgot who wrote it in another thread but when I read it the first time I laughed ...

so,..keep ur eggs in ur pants ......we all know that sammy makes an excellent 3rd rate product behind pio and panny...feel free to debate this w/ 100's of words as this was my intent of writing it....I don't care that much about the rebuttle..as my comment meant little.....I just want to see sammy boyism's squirm as they're late crashing the party of the thread hijack which was originally intended for them
So... this thread really had nothing to do with televisions and everything to do with you getting your personal jollies. Tell me how that's beneficial to anyone reading this forum.

no.... not at all...

it started out w/ CR review of the 5084..

then it turned into a pio/panny debate...

I then commented on how nice the HD feed was on the sammy..

I then poked fun at sammy

it's pretty clear that the only motivation for some is take comments personally and write lamo responses/comments one after another when discussing TV's........which is even funnier

that about sums it up

I have to laugh at those in this thread putting down Panasonic just because Pioneer finally has something to compete with after getting owned for so long.
I also have to laugh at others that somehow have offerred zero evidence of their own about thier bad plasma experience yet are now plasma experts using inferior panels. :rolleyes:
Gee...look at my 500u in this pic which is in a bright room during midday with opposite facing windows. It has plenty of 3D punch even at the lower settings I use.
There is a reason Panasonic is a winner in CReports: Price/performance ratio.
Mine was Plasma of the year and even now, not much competition that can beat it two years later. :cool:

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/7/3/5/f_HTpic1m_763f651.jpg

I wish the new pannies had a cable card..

I wish the new pannies had a cable card..Perhaps sometime during 2008 - 2009 you will be able to buy something like this:

Panasonic And Comcast To Join Forces To Test Interactive Digital Cable-Ready Televison

Interactive Television to Integrate Open Cable Application Platform (OCAP) and

Offer More Choice for Consumers to Enjoy HD, VOD and Other Advanced Home Entertainment Services (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=104590&modelNo=Content01072007024440900&surfModel=Content01072007024440900)

At what point in time did black level make for the end all be all viewing experience? This is all Pioneer owners have with the 5085. Yet this year Consumer Reports rated their revolutionary product lower than last years model.

I've never heard so many people trash a ad free publication that's been around more than 30 years.

In the last 10 years something has changed with regards to reviews of every electronic item on the market. Very rarely if ever is any product compeletely trashed as being garbage. All electronics items are very good or excellent based on what all the reviews say.

There was a time when companies like Emerson and Goldstar now LG made terrible electronics.

Now we've got people buying Olevia and Maxent plasma displays which are joke.

If you bought a Pioneer, you paid too much. I still can't say I paid too much considering my Panasonic top of the line last generation only cost me $1,500 + my $26 wall mount from monoprice.

Plasma prices continue to drop like a rock. Deminished returns should count for something. On this forum people act as if a plasma will last forever without becoming obsolete. Before you know it, HDMI will be replaced with something new and we'll all have to buy new plasmas.

Television technolgies have struggled to display correct black levels since the days of CRT. Your purchasing a TV in which one of the major advantages of the technology driving it is the production of black levels shows how little you know.

Saying that people who bought a Pioneer all paid "too much" is an ignorant statement. Many of them would argue that you paid too much for your TV if they value performance over price. Many of us in the market for a TV don't need a generic "review" from CR to tell us what set to buy.

Perhaps sometime during 2008 - 2009 you will be able to buy something like this:

Panasonic And Comcast To Join Forces To Test Interactive Digital Cable-Ready Televison

(http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=104590&modelNo=Content01072007024440900&surfModel=Content01072007024440900)

that's hilarious. comcast doesn't know how the equipment they put in the field now works, how long will it take them to figure out how a new TV works?

CR is great for reliability numbers....

Hm, for reliability, I'd take them as a ballpark measure, at best.

Their methodology is not so great, in my experience. For instance, I responded to a reliability survey on the following major appliances:

1. An Asko washer and drier, which have been the worst appliances I've had, breaking about once a year, usually to the tune of $400-$600 and a week or two for parts to arrive;

2. A Miele dishwasher, which has been O.K. and which I've had to service perhaps 3 times over the last 6-7 years;

3. A SubZero fridge, Which has been great and which I've had to service once in the last 6-7 years.

The way the questionnaire was designed (as more of a snapshot,) as I was filling it out, I realized that if I answered the questions precisely, which I did, it resulted in exactly the same reliability ratings for all of the above appliances, which in reality was not the case.

Perhaps the problem is that they assume that I am a long term subscriber, but I lost a little faith in their methodology. A the same time, they may have somehow accounted for my relatively short-term subscription, but based on the little I know about statistics, I really don't see how they can do that.

Just my experience. It also doesn't necessarily mean that their video/audio reviews are flawed: just look at the Panny vs. Pio wars here, with people looking at the same pics and seeing what they want to see. I am sure, if CR had rated the Kuro as best and the Panny 4th, the Kuro owners would have rejoiced and touted CR's impartiality, while the Panny crowd would have been calling them names.:)

Television technolgies have struggled to display correct black levels since the days of CRT. Your purchasing a TV in which one of the major advantages of the technology driving it is the production of black levels shows how little you know.

Saying that people who bought a Pioneer all paid "too much" is an ignorant statement. Many of them would argue that you paid too much for your TV if they value performance over price. Many of us in the market for a TV don't need a generic "review" from CR to tell us what set to buy.

Ok, noob. If you're such an expert, why did it take you so long to find AVSFORUM? Can you tell me the difference between a Rolex and a Citizen watch? Both have the same quartz movements and interior design. The Citizen has Ecco drive which uses natural light to charge the battery but the Rolex needs to be wound. Why does everybody want Rolex? Because as Andre Aggasi used to say in his Canon ads, "Because Image Is Everything."

This is true for the dillusional sorts that believed the newest Pioneer was revolutionary. Most of that propaganda was spread by the Pioneer drop shippers who want to sell you a Pioneer.

I can't remember who posted a little earlier something to the effect of "I will audition 2-3 different plasmas in my own living room and make my decision based not on recommendations here or in magazines but by what my own eyes tell me." That was hillarious, no drop shipper can provide that option and who's going to wall mount a plasma 3-4 times? Somebody find who wrote that in the last page or two. That's like having your cake and eating it several times over.

lmao...

I didn't use the samdung verbage as a means to insult..I just thought it was funny...

I forgot who wrote it in another thread but when I read it the first time I laughed ...

so,..keep ur eggs in ur pants ......we all know that sammy makes an excellent 3rd rate product behind pio and panny...feel free to debate this w/ 100's of words as this was my intent of writing it....I don't care that much about the rebuttle..as my comment meant little.....I just want to see sammy boyism's squirm as they're late crashing the party of the thread hijack which was originally intended for them

Several years ago 5+ Samsung hired a PR firm to change the image of Samsung from 2nd tier manufacturer to Luxury manufacturer. It was money well spent as many here are probably not old enough to remember when Samsung and Sanyo's were sold in drug stores, Kmart and Walmart. That was between 10-15 years ago.

I guess we should all say UNCLE and buy Panny? Horse Poohey! I bought into it two years ago following the fanatic base here and found it inferior to an SXRD and my current 57" Sharp. Been there done that and never again - I found the 500U to be a POS in a sunny room with daytime washout and reflection city and with ZERO WoW factor in it's PQ and yellow dirty whites and no shadow details where an SXRD excels.

Different strokes for different folks and preferences which is why we have competition for our money and a Panasonic will never find a place here after failing to match the hype of the Panny fanbase of this forum. I guess we should dub this the Panasonic AVSForum and we give in to your opinion?

Yes, I guess we can thank Panny for bringing price structures down but if you think about it they controlled 40% of the market and they originally helped establish that price structure - competition has force it downward - Panny is being pushed by competition in LCD and PDP to restructure so I'd not give all the credit to the originator of the price structure since they controlled the market for so long - innovation and competition forces it and Panasonic is not alone in this game. If they still controlled the market and LCD hadn't grown you can bet the price structure would be quite the opposite.

Your statement is completely false. The reason Panasonic can afford to lower prices is due largely to their upgraded and newly constructed plasma factories in Japan that are still being built and coming online as I am typing. Panasonic has constructed no less than 3 new huge plasma factories to expand capacity making cost less and allowing lower prices without hurtin the bottom line. By next year all the new Panasonic plasma factories should be complete.

Vizio sells more flat panel displays than anyone. This is because LG can't make enough plasma panels for Vizio so they had to start buying LCD panels to keep up with demand.

There are far more Pioneer fanboys here than Panasonic fanboys. Comparing a 3 year old plasma to current generation plasmas is not fair. You should have bought the Panasonic professional series back then without the tuner.

Here's a link to Panasonic's factory expansion plans. http://www.panasonic.co.uk/news/pdp.html

Several years ago 5+ Samsung hired a PR firm to change the image of Samsung from 2nd tier manufacturer to Luxury manufacturer. It was money well spent as many here are probably not old enough to remember when Samsung and Sanyo's were sold in drug stores, Kmart and Walmart. That was between 10-15 years ago.

Samsung and Sanyo's are stiil being sold in Walmart's. ;)

I have to laugh at those in this thread putting down Panasonic just because Pioneer finally has something to compete with after getting owned for so long.
I also have to laugh at others that somehow have offerred zero evidence of their own about thier bad plasma experience yet are now plasma experts using inferior panels. :rolleyes:
Gee...look at my 500u in this pic which is in a bright room during midday with opposite facing windows. It has plenty of 3D punch even at the lower settings I use.
There is a reason Panasonic is a winner in CReports: Price/performance ratio.
Mine was Plasma of the year and even now, not much competition that can beat it two years later. :cool:

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/7/3/5/f_HTpic1m_763f651.jpg

Yes, sure enough, "out of all the plasmas on that wall", yours is the best one.

another pointless thread, "consumer reports on PDP's and LCD's", are you kidding me, I would not trust that magazine with a review of a washing mashine or refrigerator.

that's hilarious. comcast doesn't know how the equipment they put in the field now works, how long will it take them to figure out how a new TV works?Perhaps a PRO-150FD w/M-Card slot & dual ATSC/QAM tuners?

The reason Panasonic can afford to lower prices is due largely to their upgraded and newly constructed plasma factories in Japan that are still being built and coming online as I am typing. Panasonic has constructed no less than 3 new huge plasma factories to expand capacity making cost less and allowing lower prices without hurtin the bottom line. By next year all the new Panasonic plasma factories should be complete.

Vizio sells more flat panel displays than anyone. This is because LG can't make enough plasma panels for Vizio so they had to start buying LCD panels to keep up with demand.

That's correct about Panasonic. It's similar with Sharp, as they can drastically lower their prices (and still profit) due to high volume in panel production at their own [2] large plants (and a 3rd to be in action by 2009).

That's incorrect about Vizio - while they are #1 in flat panel sales for the North American market (for 2007), their large competitor Samsung is #1 in flat-panel sales for the worldwide market [every region combined] - was reported back in August/September.

That's incorrect about Vizio - while they are #1 in flat panel sales for the North American market (for 2007), their large competitor Samsung is #1 in flat-panel sales for the worldwide market [every region combined] - was reported back in August/September.Pity the homeless:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/homeless-pdp-5080hd.JPG

PDP. :(

Yes, sure enough, "out of all the plasmas on that wall", yours is the best one.

Oh, there might be a Kuro there someday ;)....but it's up there alone so as to not embarass all the 1080p LCD's too much. :D
Just thinking about sub 600p motion on those ..um state if the art panels..makes me chuckle.

Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.

I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.

"Samsung is cheap korean garbage."

are you the author of how to make friends and influence people?

I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.With the thread 'aptly' named:

The Consumer Reports Jury is back...Samsung 5084...not glowing

can you really blame us? :p

I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.
Quite correct. It is refreshing to see well thought out intelligent posts isn't it?

Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.This guy again? Ok I have heard you say the same thing for six months we all get it. Now do you have anything worth while to contribute? I remember when you said vizio was the best.

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.

Accurate reviews? I know that isn't true. I have read reviews of items I personally own, and CR will rag paragraph after paragraph after some features CR claims the item doesn't have.

However, real true is that the item does. If CR just bothered to lightly browse through the owners manual, they would have known it.

But finding faults, even those they know are not true, makes for more dramatic, more "hard hitting", stories. And they need to have "hard hitting" stories to sell their magazine, because that is what the CR subscribers want.

So please don't fabricate a claim that CR has accurate reviews. They don't. And they don't care to have accurate reviews.

CR versus roughly a half dozen on-line professional review's saying Pio's 8th gen PDP displays are the best PDP made this year.

CR versus many AVSers returning panny's, sammy's, sony's, vizo's, sharp's, sanyo's and many others for the Pio 8th gen line.

I'm not saying the panny's suck. Far from it. They make a great display. But those in the know, know CR is off the mark on their claim.
I was in Sear's last week and they have a great sale on the panny 50pz700u with an another $250 off if you use your Sear's card. Now that's one sweet deal. The salesman's biggest selling point was the CR claim that the pz700u is the best PDP display out there.
If I didn't know better I would of jumped all over that deal. But, :Dunfortunately:D I do.
Enjoy your panny. It really is one of many great PDP's out there.
Just not the best IMO.

Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.FACT...

Vizo uses LG glass and LG components. Are you saying all Korean products are garbage or just Samsung?

CR versus roughly a half dozen on-line professional review's saying Pio's 8th gen PDP displays are the best PDP made this year.

CR versus many AVSers returning panny's, sammy's, sony's, vizo's, sharp's, sanyo's and many others for the Pio 8th gen line.

I'm not saying the panny's suck. Far from it. They make a great display. But those in the know, know CR is off the mark on their claim.
I was in Sear's last week and they have a great sale on the panny 50pz700u with an another $250 off if you use your Sear's card. Now that's one sweet deal. The salesman's biggest selling point was the CR claim that the pz700u is the best PDP display out there.
If I didn't know better I would of jumped all over that deal. But, :Dunfortunately:D I do.
Enjoy your panny. It really is one of many great PDP's out there.
Just not the best IMO.

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.

No matter how much garbage you spread. It won't magically make current Panasonic PQ better than Pioneer. I didn't think it was last year... this year its not even a contest. I can't wait till next year when Panasonic upgrades their image quality (Contrast wise) and the crazies who believe their previous year plasmas are as good as the new Kuro models.

After that please stop making primary color of green yellowish. Oversatuartion I'll let it slide. ;)

What Pioneer is doing w/ black levels I hope all plasmas peeps start implementing it in all. Finally then we can talk about how 'bad' old black levels are. And how good they've gotten.

After brandname loyalties are gone, now we can talk important stuff like Black Levels, Colors, and processing. Let's see if UMR can measure a Panasonic to something close to what Pioneer is doing. F--- what me, D-nice, or you say for the moment. Look at the numbers... and then look at a calibrated picture. Then we can go back to putting on our Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung t-shirts.

Even with this logic. I'm sure some people will still claim that duck is a rat.

By the way, I own a Vizio t-shirt. I say Vizio is way better than Pioneer or Panasonic. I am just afraid people will laugh at me hence I stick with Pioneer.

Damn salesman, conned me into buying a Pio twice!

Oh and another... I'd also take Samsungs Plasmas over a current Panasonic.

Whew !!!

Man what a relief !!

I thought I had a great TV. It's picture quality has amazed
me and everybody I have shown it to for the past couple of
months.

Thank goodness for Consumer Report and Doogie Howser !!!

I now know it's low rated and a piece of Korean garbage.

I'm tempted to just go ahead and pull the shotgun out of the
closet and put this poor POS television out of it's misery !!

:p

dxr

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.


Well you have never been to Maui. We have a Sears and a Costco which are the "big retailers" here on Maui for TV's along with a couple of small mom and pop stores which sell PDP's at MFG price with NO DISCOUNTS what ever. Walk into Sears here and try to get a hundred bucks knocked off. Forget about it. Ain't gonna happen. Have to travel to Oahu to get Best Buy/Circut City. And they are not much better than Sears on priceing.

Yea I know I could get the panny and some sweet additions along side of it for the price of a 5080. But deep down inside I know I would always regret not getting either the 5080 or what I would really like is the 1150. There are some posts about the color decoder on the 750u(which i beleive is the same on the 700u) which makes them unacceptible for me. I know too much to be happy with a panny in the long run.

Yea I know I could get the panny and some sweet additions along side of it for the price of a 5080. But deep down inside I know I would always regret not getting either the 5080 or what I would really like is the 1150. There are some posts about the color decoder on the 750u(which i beleive is the same on the 700u) which makes them unacceptible for me. I know too much to be happy with a panny in the long run.My first PDP was a Panasonic, which is a fine display. As time passed and the shortcomings of the 50U series PDPs were identified and my knowledge of plasma display technology evolved from reading many of the intelligent posts authored by the participants of the AVS Forum, I began to feel some buyer's remorse for not buying a Pioneer PDP instead. :(

I have resolved this issue with my recent acquisition of a PRO-150FD. :)

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I'm sorry, man, but on this aspect, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong! Those 600U's with the black and silver were just fugly! :eek:

Now, the 8, 9, and 10UKs all look sweet with the charcoal grey bezel.

...After brandname loyalties are gone, now we can talk important stuff like Black Levels, Colors, and processing. Let's see if UMR can measure a Panasonic to something close to what Pioneer is doing. F--- what me, D-nice, or you say for the moment. ....

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. My client was also complaining about light output. Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee. The new commercial units are better, but the black levels are much worse than Pioneer. I have not worked with the latest Samsung plasmas at this time.

geez, now pio is paying off the calibrators too... :p

i dont get it, arent the Pioneer Kuro sets far and away the best, especially the "10" series (which isnt even up there?)?

is this only for 50" sets??

I dunno, I thought that this generation the Pioneer sets were supposed to be above and beyond signifigantly, so this confuses me.

the only pioneer elite 'tested' was a 42.

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. My client was also complaining about light output. Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee. The new commercial units are better, but the black levels are much worse than Pioneer. I have not worked with the latest Samsung plasmas at this time.

I do not doubt one word that you say about the new Panasonics. I would like your opinion as to what logic Panasonic could possibly be using to produce these kind of numbers. Are they saving money? Could any engineer think that the current levels produce better PQ? Is it possible that these numbers are isolated to the display you observed?

I have read the whole thread and I am not amused. I will point out a few things about CR methodology in HDTV reviews:

1) CR buys multiple standard production samples of a particular model via the same retail and online sources used by most consumers. Contrast this with magazines and web testers who borrow a single specially selected and calibrated pre-production unit from the manufacturer. If there is any valid criticism of the CR practice, it is IMHO only that given the funding and time available, they cannot test but a few models in a given year.

2) CR performs a calibration on all sets being tested using a colorimeter and calibrated signal generator. Although this equipment is not new and has no HDMI output, the sets are being tested after being tweeked uniformly, and the relative ratings are in fact valid for the conditions of test. If your favorite brand doesn't test well via the component video inputs, TOO BAD - it's still a popular interface and I personally view more content via an external DVR connected via component than any of my other sources.

3) A portion of the HDTV ratings are based upon subjective viewings of the sets by a variety of testers, with the logos obscured. The viewers include both technical and non-technical people, and the viewing methodology minimizes the fanboy factor.

4) The only source of reliability information is consumer questionaires, and results are not reported for HDTV models with less than 100 responses.

IMHO the CR test methodology, although it can be criticized with some validity, is superior to any other source of equipment reviews I know of. It's also different enough that I am not surprised that the ratings do not alighn with other sources.

All this information about test methodology is available in the original CR HDTV test articles and in the somewhat different summary they post in the annual bound volume at the end of the year. In the interest of full disclosure, I have been a CR subscriber for over 3 decades. Although I can perceive flaws in some of their published results, I find much more to criticize in "professional" reviews from other sources.

^ Interesting! I did not know that. I have found that while some other publications do include "value" as part of the rating system, CR makes this catagory one of it's most important. It's very similar to Money Magazine in that the product is evaluated as a whole and then it's price is compared to other products in the same catagory. If the product is close to or higher in all around quality, but much more expensive, it will receive a lower total score because of the deminished return from the higher cost. To the average "consumer" this means a lot.

So, if in fact the average consumer will not see all of the extra PQ/black level that a Pioneer offers over other brands, yet it costs substantially more, why would it not recaive a lower total rating?

Take it a bit further. J6P walks into Best Buy. He sees a 60 inch 768p Visio and a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer. He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for. All he knows is one is big and looks great and one is smaller, looks great, and costs twice as much as the the bigger one. He, like most, will buy the Visio and I don't blame him.

I have been on a "new display every year" pace and my wife has had enough. It would be much easier for her to deal with if the displays I had been buying and selling cost half as much. How many Kuro owners will be looking to buy a new display in 08? This forum will be full of them. J6P is not like 99% of the people on this forum and that is who CR caters to...the average person looking for a quality display for a good price...simple.

^ Interesting! I did not know that. I have found that while some other publications do include "value" as part of the rating system, CR makes this catagory one of it's most important. It's very similar to Money Magazine in that the product is evaluated as a whole and then it's price is compared to other products in the same catagory. If the product is close to or higher in all around quality, but much more expensive, it will receive a lower total score because of the deminished return from the higher cost. To the average "consumer" this means a lot.

So, if in fact the average consumer will not see all of the extra PQ/black level that a Pioneer offers over other brands, yet it costs substantially more, why would it not recaive a lower total rating?

Take it a bit further. J6P walks into Best Buy. He sees a 60 inch 768p Visio and a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer. He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for. All he knows is one is big and looks great and one is smaller, looks great, and costs twice as much as the the bigger one. He, like most, will buy the Visio and I don't blame him.

I have been on a "new display every year" pace and my wife has had enough. It would be much easier for her to deal with if the displays I had been buying and selling cost half as much. How many Kuro owners will be looking to buy a new display in 08? This forum will be full of them. J6P is not like 99% of the people on this forum and that is who CR caters to...the average person looking for a quality display for a good price...simple.

"He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for."

Sounds like a snake oil sales pitch to me. Many times no matter the price, in notes CR will state TV "A" has by far the best picture. Usually TV "A" is rated #1. You incorrectly assume that CR rated the Pioneer lower because of it's price. You also assume the picture quality of Pioneer's 5085 is superior to the Panasonic. You can't do that. Well, yes you can, you're selling us snake oil and attacking others who share a different opinion than you do.

CR is great for reliability numbers. They are piss poor for actual reviews. Of course this is my opinion and it comes from years of "CR reading" experiences.

IMO, if you want competent reviews for A/V equipment, you need to look at HT Mag, Sound & Vision, and A/V Mag.

What he said...in spades!

I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

I read posts like this and just shake my head. The entire A/V world has proclaimed the Pioneers to be the best flat panels ever, but you just dismiss these all and call respected ISF guys like UMR, a 'vacuum cleaner repairman'.

Your opinion may differ from others and that's fine, but you have no call to post crap like you did above. If you had any decency you'd apologize to UMR.

I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

Lighten up Hans:D

I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

I guess if you don't like black levels and contrast, Panasonics newer plasmas are 'perfect' for you. Consumer Reports agrees, I agree, and UMR will agree.

It doesn't take an ITT tech grad to figure that out. Hahaha. Eeee... I really hope no one reads this and actually takes any merit out of this. Owners of Panasonic you're excluded because the decision has been made.

Me personally, when I find a better display than Pioneer's Kuro series, I'll gladly admit it. Panasonic fanboys can't seem to shake off the fact that they haven't made any significant improvement in their plasma series in a LONG time. This is the first year where I've heard their plasmas have gotten even worse!

When you're top dog in sales... you get kinda lazy apparently.

Well johnny comparing last years pansonic vs pioneer- black levels were still better on panasonic. But i agree they have not made no stride in years but they were in the lead for many years, and only until this year pioneer now has the best CR. And i agree Vizio rules! I just ordered a vizio t-shirt :)

Well johnny comparing last years pansonic vs pioneer- black levels were still better on panasonic. But i agree they have not made no stride in years but they were in the lead for many years, and only until this year pioneer now has the best CR. And i agree Vizio rules! I just ordered a vizio t-shirt :)

Wha? The new Kuros to the old years panasonic?

Very. Very. Very. False.

Hey can someone make this clear for me?... Since when was .012 a better black level than .004.

Why do I feel like we have these darn conversations all the time on AVS? I bet even there was a display that had a black level of nothing... some people still wouldn't admit differently that Panasonic was worse at blacks.

Panasonic hasn't been the best at black in about 2 years. Riiight... and Panasonics have better black level than the best CRTs right? Geez.. these memories are running back like it was just yesterday.

I meant last years pio-vs panasonic not the kuro. Certainly i agree kuro has the best blacks, no contest there. But last years pio still wasent as deep as panny or samsung. Samsung has a little better blacks than panny imo, but color accuracy panny is close to pioneer, atleast last years models were side by side comparison. Brightness wise one calibrator says the kuros are brighter, one said the panny is brighter by 1/3, one owner of both xb1032 says the kuro is a little brighter. I myself find the kuro not as bright but thats my honest opinion. I think it's far fetched to say pannys are junk though compared to pioneer. I think they close as heck besides black levels. Panny being a little sharper.

I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

Wow!
UMR is one of the top 5 calibrators in the US. And one of the most sought after/desired calibrator in the country

He is highly respected here on AVS for his unbiased opions. For you to say some crap like that.....

I'll second what Ken said;

If you had any decency you'd apologize to UMR.

:eek:I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners. Gee, that's nice!

Someone with brains happened to provide some real world calibration experience which contradict your
limited retail observations , so you try to insult him?

Don't let the facts cloud your judgement or anything, after all you are quite happy with your choice of bezel, right?:confused:

As a matter of fact, triple CRT projection sets were well known for the blackest of blacks....because the electron beam current could be switched completely off in the black areas of the screen. By contrast, a plasma cell has a small current flowing to keep the gas ionized - although the bias current is being reduced with each generation of panel, resulting in blacker blacks.

Of course, back when front and rear CRT projection sets were king, Pioneer Elite rear projection sets were my pick for best-of-the-best.

Triple CRT front and rear projection sets were displaced by flat panel technology when such panels were noticeably and distinctly inferior in image quality compared to CRT projection. The reasons for this were the flat panel was more stylish - a better fit in most furnished rooms, when the rear projection TVs were massive black boxes, and the front projectors required darkened rooms and high gain screens. The convenience factor overcame the inferior flat panel image, not any superiority in video quality.

I meant last years pio-vs panasonic not the kuro. Certainly i agree kuro has the best blacks, no contest there. But last years pio still wasent as deep as panny or samsung. Samsung has a little better blacks than panny imo, but color accuracy panny is close to pioneer, atleast last years models were side by side comparison. Brightness wise one calibrator says the kuros are brighter, one said the panny is brighter by 1/3, one owner of both xb1032 says the kuro is a little brighter. I myself find the kuro not as bright but thats my honest opinion. I think it's far fetched to say pannys are junk though compared to pioneer. I think they close as heck besides black levels. Panny being a little sharper.


Oh last years Pioneer panels. Right. Yes I agree then. Sorry. Haha.

But really I thought both the panels in 06 while Panasonic had a better black level... they both were at that "meh" stage for me. So do I lose the processing, color decoding, and look of the Pioneer just for Panasonics slightly darker gray blacks? Just wasn't worth it IMO. Toss the price factor in there than the decision is more difficult.

Now that Kuro has the darkest blacks static-wise since CRT (not counting Samsung 81), it makes the arguement moot.

As a matter of fact, triple CRT projection sets were well known for the blackest of blacks....because the electron beam current could be switched completely off in the black areas of the screen. By contrast, a plasma cell has a small current flowing to keep the gas ionized - although the bias current is being reduced with each generation of panel, resulting in blacker blacks.

Of course, back when front and rear CRT projection sets were king, Pioneer Elite rear projection sets were my pick for best-of-the-best.

Triple CRT front and rear projection sets were displaced by flat panel technology when such panels were noticeably and distinctly inferior in image quality compared to CRT projection. The reasons for this were the flat panel was more stylish - a better fit in most furnished rooms, when the rear projection TVs were massive black boxes, and the front projectors required darkened rooms and high gain screens. The convenience factor overcame the inferior flat panel image, not any superiority in video quality.

I'm sure even though flat panels had worse black levels and I think for the most part they still do in the darkest rooms. (Even Kuro) Flat panels do some aspects of PQ better. Sharpness for one being direct view and fixed pixel. ANSI contrast another.

But you're right. The main sale of flat panels is because they just look cooler.. period. I'd say the same arguement for direct view CRTs. If you were a black level freak... or still are... CRTs and even CRT front projectors still are the golden comparison.

For me Kuro has gotten to the point where I'm cool. CRT can have the darker blacks. Kuros black level doesn't bug me anymore. Yay.

CR buys multiple standard production samples of a particular model via the same retail and online sources used by most consumers. Contrast this with magazines and web testers who borrow a single specially selected and calibrated pre-production unit from the manufacturer.

This is a very good point. It makes the Consumer Reports review more valid than other reviews.

As a matter of fact, triple CRT projection sets were well known for the blackest of blacks....because the electron beam current could be switched completely off in the black areas of the screen. By contrast, a plasma cell has a small current flowing to keep the gas ionized - although the bias current is being reduced with each generation of panel, resulting in blacker blacks.

Of course, back when front and rear CRT projection sets were king, Pioneer Elite rear projection sets were my pick for best-of-the-best.

Triple CRT front and rear projection sets were displaced by flat panel technology when such panels were noticeably and distinctly inferior in image quality compared to CRT projection. The reasons for this were the flat panel was more stylish - a better fit in most furnished rooms, when the rear projection TVs were massive black boxes, and the front projectors required darkened rooms and high gain screens. The convenience factor overcame the inferior flat panel image, not any superiority in video quality.


Mitsubishi and Sony had the best rp-crt's, then pioneer. Plasmas are cool as heck but ill never forget the movie theater type experience with the 65 rp-crt. Totally owned the theater in every aspect except size. While plasma is great, it's not quite on the "holy grail" level yet, maybe never.

"He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for."

Sounds like a snake oil sales pitch to me. Many times no matter the price, in notes CR will state TV "A" has by far the best picture. Usually TV "A" is rated #1. You incorrectly assume that CR rated the Pioneer lower because of it's price. You also assume the picture quality of Pioneer's 5085 is superior to the Panasonic. You can't do that. Well, yes you can, you're selling us snake oil and attacking others who share a different opinion than you do.

What kind of snake oil do you think I am pushing. I OWN A PZ77U! It's a Pani if you are at all confused. Where did I ever mention anything about CR's rating system? I SAID MONEY MAGAZINE...who happened to pick a PANI as their best buy...a 600U to be correct. Are you so hell bent on picking a fight with anyone that you can't even see when someone (me) is trying to point out (IMHO) that there might be higher value displays on the market than Kuros?

I did compare a Pioneer to a Visio. Are you saying the Pioneer has lower PQ than a Visio? I did that as to not get you all worked up, but apparently you will argue about anything. I even stated that the Visio (IMHO) is a better value for the average consumer. Take your meds and quit insulting people...even the ones that are remotely close to agreeing with you. Also, that statement about UMR was way out of line.

^ Interesting! I did not know that. I have found that while some other publications do include "value" as part of the rating system, CR makes this catagory one of it's most important. It's very similar to Money Magazine in that the product is evaluated as a whole and then it's price is compared to other products in the same catagory. If the product is close to or higher in all around quality, but much more expensive, it will receive a lower total score because of the deminished return from the higher cost. To the average "consumer" this means a lot.

So, if in fact the average consumer will not see all of the extra PQ/black level that a Pioneer offers over other brands, yet it costs substantially more, why would it not recaive a lower total rating?

Take it a bit further. J6P walks into Best Buy. He sees a 60 inch 768p Visio and a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer. He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for. All he knows is one is big and looks great and one is smaller, looks great, and costs twice as much as the the bigger one. He, like most, will buy the Visio and I don't blame him.

I have been on a "new display every year" pace and my wife has had enough. It would be much easier for her to deal with if the displays I had been buying and selling cost half as much. How many Kuro owners will be looking to buy a new display in 08? This forum will be full of them. J6P is not like 99% of the people on this forum and that is who CR caters to...the average person looking for a quality display for a good price...simple.

Did I attack someone here?

I'm sure even though flat panels had worse black levels and I think for the most part they still do in the darkest rooms. (Even Kuro) Flat panels do some aspects of PQ better. Sharpness for one being direct view and fixed pixel. ANSI contrast another.

But you're right. The main sale of flat panels is because they just look cooler.. period. I'd say the same arguement for direct view CRTs. If you were a black level freak... or still are... CRTs and even CRT front projectors still are the golden comparison.

For me Kuro has gotten to the point where I'm cool. CRT can have the darker blacks. Kuros black level doesn't bug me anymore. Yay.


For sure plasmas do things better, it's hi rez digital perfect focused images that makes the digitals look just more clearer and wow factor. Where crt has that softer analog look, especially the rp-crts, not so much the tubes. And no image brightness drop off, those rp-crts image droped huge when you standed up. But when you compare a BIG screen size crt to a plasma of the same size, say 65in, you notice alot more noise in the picture. Plasmas are noisy, evident even in the 50in size. Lcd, sxrd,dlp, do have alot less noise in a BIG screen size.

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. ... Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee.

Does your banishment list include the Panasonic z750u, their top of the (consumer) line model? Or just any of their models below it? Just curious, since the hdguru Gary Merson gave it his highest recommendation, pre-Kuro release. While he does have his detractors, he is generally considered to be at least reasonably credible. Just trying to reconcile his "highest recommendation" with your "not worth my fee" comments. Quite a divergence of opinion.

thanks.

btw, this thread is entertaining. Usually it's a single topic 'us' against 'them' throwdown. Or two. But here, there's about a dozen skirmishes going on at once..

CR vs a/v mags
Samsung vs Panasonic
Panasonic vs Pioneer
Visio vs Panasonic
Panasonic 2 years ago vs Panasonic today
my definition of 'fanboy' vs your definition of 'fanboy'
crt vs flat panel
plasma vs lcd


I need a program guide to keep track of all the differently colored team jerseys. :p

Does your banishment list include the Panasonic z750u, their top of the (consumer) line model? Or just any of their models below it? Just curious, since the hdguru Gary Merson gave it his highest recommendation, pre-Kuro release. While he does have his detractors, he is generally considered to be at least reasonably credible. Just trying to reconcile his "highest recommendation" with your "not worth my fee" comments. Quite a divergence of opinion.

thanks.

Just curious. Is a Pani not worth your fee because it would take too long to calibrate?

Gary McCoy, in post #116, lays out exactly how CR does it's testing and how they arrive at their final results. How can you possibly argue with their methodology? They buy displays from stores just like we do. They blind test PQ using techs and non techs, they add up the results and publish them. They do not take into account other outside reviews, they do not take into account past reputation. Knowing that, how can some still say that CR's reviews are crap? Let's see, they buy from a store, they accept no advertising $$$, they calibrate the displays themselves, they use techs and J6P's to evaluate the displays with the mfgs name covered. How could they be more fair? Now if Pioneer would have been rated number one you would all be calling them geniuses. And lets drop the price card. They mistakenly had the Pioneer priced at $1900. Even with that it came in fourth. Maybe they had a weak Kuro sample. Maybe it would have been number one had they used HDMI. But they said right up front that they were using component connections.

...They blind test PQ using techs and non techs, they add up the results and publish them....

I think this gets to the heart of the matter.

By including a diverse group of reviewers, with different levels of experience and sophistication, CR employs more of a "focus group" approach.

I do have to deal with focus groups often, and I generally dislike them. They serve to cover the behinds of marketing departments, who in the case of a product failure, can always point to the record of the focus group, and claim that nobody expected the failure, thus nobody should be blamed for it:-)

One problems with focus groups is, that often they employ poor methodology. For instance, if CS had 5 testers in the same room, the group opinion can easily be colored by one "leader" participant.

Another problem is, that focus groups tend to smother vision and bring everything to the lowest common denominator. If you asked the crowd at Dairy Queen to pass on the merits of say, art, you may very well end up with a velvet painting, rather than a Van Gogh....

And they are often wrong. For instance, if I remember correctly, Ford famously decided that there was absolutely no US market interest in a roadster, after extensive focus-group testing. That was just a couple of years before the introduction of the Miata, which of course started a decade-long roadster-fad. Similarly, the Prius tested horribly in focus groups.

Anyway, while this way of testing may have some merit, it also results in the jacked-up TV settings one sees on the floors of discount retailers (and in many homes:-)

So, there is something to be said for individual reviewers, whom you can judge based on your personal agreement or disagreement with their past reviews.

"btw, this thread is entertaining. Usually it's a single topic 'us' against 'them' throwdown. Or two. But here, there's about a dozen skirmishes going on at once..

CR vs a/v mags
Samsung vs Panasonic
Panasonic vs Pioneer
Visio vs Panasonic
Panasonic 2 years ago vs Panasonic today
my definition of 'fanboy' vs your definition of 'fanboy'
crt vs flat panel
plasma vs lcd"

I can't stop laughing


ty...... johnny for crashing this shin-dig and bringing up black levels....mentioning the pio kuro w/o them would be like peanut butter w/o jelly..

I vote u change ur name to Johnny "Black Levels" Brulez

You guys need to stop falling for the trolling bait. :D

Nope, I own the Panasonic 50-PX600U which was rated number 3 only out of 17 in last years consumer reports issue only beaten by the larger 58" panny and a Hitachi of all things.

Of course my 600U is far superior to the 5084 and probably superior to the 5085 as well. You can't beat Panasonic for price and performance. You Pioneer cult members can keep praising you Pioneers but you paid way too much.

Well, sorry for popping the buble... 600U was rated by CR as #3, behind pio 1140, sammy 5073 and Vizio P50HDTV (2nd place tie) as of May 07. Panny 7x may be better, but 600U? Be real.

I don't have high regard to CR TV rating, but since we are talking about CR rating, let CR talk.

Does your banishment list include the Panasonic z750u, their top of the (consumer) line model? Or just any of their models below it? Just curious, since the hdguru Gary Merson gave it his highest recommendation, pre-Kuro release. While he does have his detractors, he is generally considered to be at least reasonably credible. Just trying to reconcile his "highest recommendation" with your "not worth my fee" comments. Quite a divergence of opinion.

thanks.

It does include that unit.

Gary McCoy, in post #116, lays out exactly how CR does it's testing and how they arrive at their final results. How can you possibly argue with their methodology? They buy displays from stores just like we do. They blind test PQ using techs and non techs, they add up the results and publish them. They do not take into account other outside reviews, they do not take into account past reputation. Knowing that, how can some still say that CR's reviews are crap? Let's see, they buy from a store, they accept no advertising $$$, they calibrate the displays themselves, they use techs and J6P's to evaluate the displays with the mfgs name covered. How could they be more fair?

I do think the CR bashing can go overboard at times. I think they mean well, and ostensibly, they seem to meet at least a reasonable number of important criteria in their attempts at making impartial evaluations.

With that said, in light of just about every a/v dedicated source who've evaluated any one of the various Kuro models (the 5080 at least a few times, for an apples to apples point of reference) and all having subsequently rated them the best, and in some cases, rating them the best EVER of any product in the flat panel category, at minimum, the CR rating is at least curious, wouldn't you agree? On one side, the Kuros are considered to be leading the pack and sometimes by a significant margin, and on the other side (CR).. they're not even making it into the team photo. Any way you slice it, this is an odd divergence of opinion worthy of consideration.

And I'm sorry, charges of ad fees lining pockets to account for this lockstep uniformity of favorable Kuro opinion just doesn't fly. I'm not saying ad revenue can't have an influence on what products are rated and how they are rated, but the fact that all/most major brands are rated by the a/v dedicated magazines suggests that if there is bias due to these ad "clients", then there would be at least some more significant variation in their collective ratings. But no, in every case, the Kuros have been judged to be the best (as of right now). So unless someone can cite evidence that Pioneer has the largest ad budget or payola practices, we are reasonably left to assume that their glowing reviews are mainly based upon their reasonably thorough evaluations, which often included specific measurements to give context and weight to these praising evaluations, btw. Not something CR provides a whole lot of (i.e., measurements).


The same questions might apply to Samsung's rating, but to a less significant degree. I've seen at least a couple pro reviews which have Samsung outperforming Panasonic, even "smoking" them. Though there isn't quite enough smoke to yell "fire!" based upon this more limited pool of evidence.

Again, I am not outright dismissing the quality of Consumer Reports here. Only that their significant divergence of rating vs. everyone else warrants closer scrutiny.

I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

Anyone who has to make baseless personal attacks to defend his position is pathetic.

It does include that unit.

Wow, that's interesting. I assume your brevity is at least partially due to wanting to stay above the forum frays as much as possible, so I won't ask any follow up questions of you. Afterall, courting controversy is bad for bidness. ;)

I do not doubt one word that you say about the new Panasonics. I would like your opinion as to what logic Panasonic could possibly be using to produce these kind of numbers. Are they saving money? Could any engineer think that the current levels produce better PQ? Is it possible that these numbers are isolated to the display you observed?

I cannot discuss the inside story about Panasonic. I have seen the light output noted in other reviews and observed the same thing on showroom floors.

Consumer Reports' review value is only as good as the knowledge and experience of the actual reviewers (obviously). And it depends on their review criteria. The value to the reader is subjective to how much we agree or disagree with their conclusions.

I'll never forget the first time I was surprised at a C.R. "review". Back in high school (early '80s), Harmon Kardon released a special home audio-cassette player/recorder with Dolby HXPro noise reduction (along with the usual Dolby B and C), with the HXPro option providing benefits in the recording of material with high frequencies in the signal. H-K was the only brand that had this feature in a consumer model.

With C.R., they made a single comment about the unit, like: "other than the added Dolby HXPro option, this model is similar to other name-brand models". Well, duh! Rather than a mini-review or simple note about Dolby HXPro and it's benefits, the C.R. reviewer overlooked it's value, lumping it with the regular "bunch" of name-brand models at that time (from Teac, Pioneer, Technics, Akai, Sharp, etc]. It really impressed upon me that these people can have a limited knowledge of the product under review (at least in this case), or just didn't care to highlight a significant improvement in home-recording technology (at that time). I've been wary of their reviews ever since, although I'm still a subscriber. :cool:

Gary McCoy, in post #116, lays out exactly how CR does it's testing and how they arrive at their final results. How can you possibly argue with their methodology? They buy displays from stores just like we do. They blind test PQ using techs and non techs, they add up the results and publish them. They do not take into account other outside reviews, they do not take into account past reputation. Knowing that, how can some still say that CR's reviews are crap? Let's see, they buy from a store, they accept no advertising $$$, they calibrate the displays themselves, they use techs and J6P's to evaluate the displays with the mfgs name covered. How could they be more fair? Now if Pioneer would have been rated number one you would all be calling them geniuses. And lets drop the price card. They mistakenly had the Pioneer priced at $1900. Even with that it came in fourth. Maybe they had a weak Kuro sample. Maybe it would have been number one had they used HDMI. But they said right up front that they were using component connections.

This is a good post that explains why CR is the most trusted cosumer review magazine. They don't get cherry picked units and they don't accept advertising money. There is no conflict of interest. CR buys the exact same displays that any of could buy. They do an honest review. Anyone who disagrees has a hidden agenda. Consumer Reports has both technical experts and normal people participate in reviews.

I agree with the Consumer Report reviews. They are in-line with what I have seen. Panasonic is one of the best. Vizio is very good and bright. Samsung is low quality junk.

This is a good post that explains why CR is the most trusted cosumer review magazine. They don't get cherry picked units and they don't accept advertising money. There is no conflict of interest. CR buys the exact same displays that any of could buy. They do an honest review. Anyone who disagrees has a hidden agenda. Consumer Reports has both technical experts and normal people participate in reviews.

I agree with the Consumer Report reviews. They are in-line with what I have seen. Panasonic is one of the best. Vizio is very good and bright. Samsung is low quality junk.

I've been called a Panasonic fanboy. However, there's no way Vizio is better than Samsung. LG makes all the Vizio panels and the price advantage of Vizio for the last 2 years has quickly disappeared. I don't think LG makes better plasmas than Samsung.

People seem to forget that Pioneer has had a reliability issue for many years. Panasonic and Toshiba have been the most reliable display devices. However, I don't think Toshiba has been making their own plasma displays.

I will only add that if you are a Pioneer or Panasonic or Sony or some other name brand, and you desire to market a new model successfully, then you would put a lot of extra effort into getting good technical reviews. Among other things, you might:

1) Select important components such as the flatscreen itself for image quality. Maybe you would pay extra money to the glass manufacturer for best quality screens for the first production run. Then you might make a normal manufacturing decision to loosen up the spec for normal production, and use cheaper panels for more profit.

2) You might specially select the electronics to match the cherry-picked screens so as to maximize overall performance.

3) You might hand-calibrate each early unit in a lab, although you know the extra labor would not be used in subsequent production units.

4) You would minimally do 100% inspection for defects such as stuck pixels and defective inputs. You would not want to be reading about how the reviewer exchanged his set.

Once you had succeeded in getting favorable reviews from the early production run units, you would thereafter follow a "maximum profit" scheme whereby you maximized profits for the remainder of the product life. You know that (aside from that pesky Consumer Reports) all the Web reviewers and magazines will move on to testing other new models, and never notice the change. You would be benefitting from the early favorable reviews of the model, and taking advantage of the majority of buyers who base thir purchase decision upon reviews rather than side-by-side comparisons in a brick and mortar store.

Now ask yourself how many of those Web reviewers and magazine reviewers are truly ignorant about these practices. After all, they must never annoy a paid advertizer, nor can they afford to wait for anything but a early cherry-picked unit to publish a review - if you snooze, you lose - Web reviews are sometimes published only days after the early units ship.

I've been called a Panasonic fanboy. However, there's no way Vizio is better than Samsung. LG makes all the Vizio panels and the price advantage of Vizio for the last 2 years has quickly disappeared. I don't think LG makes better plasmas than Samsung.

People seem to forget that Pioneer has had a reliability issue for many years. Panasonic and Toshiba have been the most reliable display devices. However, I don't think Toshiba has been making their own plasma displays.

I haven't seen a Toshiba plasma so I can't comment on them. Truth be told I didn't know Toshiba made plasma. I remember them making projection sets.

Samsung is so bad that if they were the only ones making plasma I would buy a LCD. The judder and flickering of a Samsung makes it nearly unwatchable when the background is white.

Gary McCoy. Just to comment on your post. It has always stuck out in my mind when a magazine or site mentions that they think they received a cal'd unit. Cnet has mentioned this numerous times and TH Mag has mentioned this about many of their Samsung samples. Every review of a Samsung display by HT Mag in the last couple of years has shown almost spot on color accuracy. This is always followed up by a comment that elludes to the possibility that they might have received a cal'd unit. But if Samsung send out all units this way, I applaud them. I don't know.

As this thread continues, I find myself wondering if their is any end to this craziness? Are we on a gaming forum? Do some of you really consider the product you bought that much superior to an equivilant product? I would be happy with every single product mentioned in this thread and I by no means believe what I have purchased now or in the past is the far superior to other products, it was best for my situation.

To call every product from a company "crap" is childish. To take personal shots at a complete stranger because they don't agree with your evaluation of a display is childish. To take the side of some company because you purchase their products and defend them to no end is ignorant. You might love them, but they ain't never gonna love ya back.

What is so funny is that up until about 5 years or so many have been use to 480i tv's including all the interlacing and other artifacts. And here we are pulling each other's hair out fighting for brand name superiority in the name of hdtv.

The degree of cheating going on with those early review units is amazing.

That's why for all the abuse they take, Consumer Reports has results that pretty much match up to what you can see in a large brick and mortar store, if you take the time to tweak each set's operator settings. That's because they are comparing normal production quality for each brand, not early units.

One amusing note: before I bought my 47" Westinghouse monitor, I would go into Best Buy and ask them to play a DVD I brought with me, that happened to be the Avia DVD. After tweeking the operator settings for brightness/contrast/color/etc. I would walk away with what was then the cheapest looking HDTV set displaying the best image.

But it never lasted. The next day the Westinghouse would again look like it belonged at the end of the row of screens with declining prices. All would be normal in the world of BB again.

I haven't seen a Toshiba plasma so I can't comment on them. Truth be told I didn't know Toshiba made plasma. I remember them making projection sets.

Samsung is so bad that if they were the only ones making plasma I would buy a LCD. The judder and flickering of a Samsung makes it nearly unwatchable when the background is white.

doogie, your irrational Samsung hatred is amusing. You spend so much time bashing Sammy I'm not sure what you own. Tell about your TV for a change.

The degree of cheating going on with those early review units is amazing.

That's why for all the abuse they take, Consumer Reports has results that pretty much match up to what you can see in a large brick and mortar store, if you take the time to tweak each set's operator settings. That's because they are comparing normal production quality for each brand, not early units.

One amusing note: before I bought my 47" Westinghouse monitor, I would go into Best Buy and ask them to play a DVD I brought with me, that happened to be the Avia DVD. After tweeking the operator settings for brightness/contrast/color/etc. I would walk away with what was then the cheapest looking HDTV set displaying the best image.

But it never lasted. The next day the Westinghouse would again look like it belonged at the end of the row of screens with declining prices. All would be normal in the world of BB again.

Very interesting. Did you use the Avia Disk to tweak all the different screens, and concluded that the Westinghouse looked the best, or did you just tweak the settings on only the Westinghouse panels?

I am not sure what you may be hinting at with your last paragraph; are you indicating that you suspect that the store was intentionally calibrating how each panel looked to make the least expensive panels also look the worst?

I picked my Westinghouse out based on price/performance. I paid $1800 in November 2005 for an early LVM-37w1. That one ended up on the wife's desk at her employer, used for large spreadsheets (she's a CPA). Then I bought the LVM-47w1, and paid less than for the 37". No pretensions that I did anything but hunt for the best image at the lowest price. Now I'm lusting after a 50" plasma.

When it comes to BB and CC, if you shop early in the morning, you will see an obvious progression in image quality from cheapest to most expensive. Then if you go into the Magnolia Home Theater display at BB, the sets look better still. I'm not suggesting anything other than that somebody who cares takes the time to tweek the sets in the morning. At least at my local BB, this is not true on Saturday or Sunday morning - leading me to suspect the person doing the tweeking might be the manager of the TV department. I'm not suggesting any form of conspiracy exists. By noon of that day most operator settings have been changed by shoppers.

If you use the Avia (or Video Essentials) DVD and the color filters, you can do a better job than tweeking by eye alone. In the process you will set things like the brightness for best image in the ambient lighting. Even this is short of what you can acheive at home by entering the Service Menu on your set. Then the best you can do at home is not as good as paying a ISF professional with professional quality test equipment. But flat panels are so cheap nowadays that ISF calibration will probably only happen for high-end units sold by a full service installer.

...Now ask yourself how many of those Web reviewers and magazine reviewers are truly ignorant about these practices. After all, they must never annoy a paid advertizer,...

True, but also they must be truthful enough to maintain their reputation, which allows them to keep attracting readers in the long run.

Because the fewer readers, the fewer the greenbacks paid by those advertisers.

I do thing CS has its place, but I personally prefer the opinion of a knowledgeable reviewer I trust, to that of the cafeteria worker at CS (see my earlier comment on focus groups and why most discount stores set their TVs to "vivid".)

True, but also they must be truthful enough to maintain their reputation, which allows them to keep attracting readers in the long run.

Because the fewer readers, the fewer the greenbacks paid by those advertisers.

I do thing CS has its place, but I personally prefer the opinion of a knowledgeable reviewer I trust, to that of the cafeteria worker at CS (see my earlier comment on focus groups and why most discount stores set their TVs to "vivid".)

First off, it's CR not CS. Can you share your knowledge as to where CR gets its focus groups? My guess is not from the cafeteria. Thirdly, according to BB, CC, Ultimate, they unpack the displays and stick them on the shelves with no tweaking at all. The displays come from the factory preset in a vivid type mode.

First off, it's CR not CS. Can you share your knowledge as to where CR gets its focus groups? My guess is not from the cafeteria. Thirdly, according to BB, CC, Ultimate, they unpack the displays and stick them on the shelves with no tweaking at all. The displays come from the factory preset in a vivid type mode.

Just a comical example of how stores care/know little or nothing about the displays they are selling:

I was checking out the Samsung 71 series LCD at my local Fry's. I went into the settings (which were totally jacked) and made some basic adjustments. First of they had a BD demo going, but had the 120 hz option on high which gave it this Matrix, Neo dodging bullets effect to anything that was moving. I turned it off. I then put it in movie mode and adjusted the picture and brightness.

My wife and I took a step back and began to study the PQ. A Fry's salesman and his buddy walk up to the display. One says "this looks like crap" and returns it to vivid mode. I say "my wife and I are thinking of spending a couple grand on this display and you go and change the settings as soon as I put down the remote? You think that's a good idea?" He said no one would watch it the way I had it in their house.

I walked out of the store.

I was checking out the Pani pz700 with a px75 sitting right next to it. the 700 was playing the Happy Feet BD and the 75 was playing their crappy Discovery feed. I asked if we could get the same source on both displays because there is such a disparity between a BD and the Fry's feed.

The salesman explains that the 700 looks sooooo much better because it is 1080p and the 75 looks sooooo bad because it was 768p.

I walked out of the store.

First off, it's CR not CS....

Oh, O.K., you won the argument....

As to the "focus group" -like methodology, read your own post:
...They buy displays from stores just like we do. They blind test PQ using techs and non techs, they add up the results and publish them....

Where do you think they get what you refer to as the "non techs" who participate in those surveys? Who do you think generally has time to participate in focus groups?

...The displays come from the factory preset in a vivid type mode.

Duh.... Because manufacturers have done some "focus group" testing on their own, and "vivid" is what the same "non techs" who participated in the CR survey generally like best.

Just a comical example of how stores care/know little or nothing about the displays they are selling:

I was checking out the Samsung 71 series LCD at my local Fry's. I went into the settings (which were totally jacked) and made some basic adjustments. First of they had a BD demo going, but had the 120 hz option on high which gave it this Matrix, Neo dodging bullets effect to anything that was moving. I turned it off. I then put it in movie mode and adjusted the picture and brightness.

My wife and I took a step back and began to study the PQ. A Fry's salesman and his buddy walk up to the display. One says "this looks like crap" and returns it to vivid mode. I say "my wife and I are thinking of spending a couple grand on this display and you go and change the settings as soon as I put down the remote? You think that's a good idea?" He said no one would watch it the way I had it in their house.

I walked out of the store.

I was checking out the Pani pz700 with a px75 sitting right next to it. the 700 was playing the Happy Feet BD and the 75 was playing their crappy Discovery feed. I asked if we could get the same source on both displays because there is such a disparity between a BD and the Fry's feed.

The salesman explains that the 700 looks sooooo much better because it is 1080p and the 75 looks sooooo bad because it was 768p.

I walked out of the store.

You lose credibility by shopping for plasma's at Fry's Circuit City or BB. The best place to look at a set is probably Costco only because of all the natural light around. Costco doesn't have enough idiot workers to harrass you while making a choice.

In the south people call soda pop "coke" even if it's a Pepsi. Get me a coke just means get me a soda.

You cannot accurately tune a plasma without a tuning DVD, pluge patterns or a light meter. What if your tuning job did look awful? I'm not saying it did but it might.

I just realized recently that I'm color blind. I learned this from many Pioneer fanboys.

Oh, man, I'm wiping the tears from my eyes. Nothing gets me laughing like a Hans Gruber -a-thon.

Guys, stop letting him bait you, he's just a button pusher. He repeats the same things over and over, even when presented with physical evidence that contradicts his claims, and when somebody presents him with facts he usually just insults their intelligence or makes elitist comments. I think he just enjoys pushing people for reactions.

You lose credibility

Now, THAT is funny.

Oh, O.K., you won the argument....

As to the "focus group" -like methodology, read your own post:


Where do you think they get what you refer to as the "non techs" who participate in those surveys? Who do you think generally has time to participate in focus groups?



Duh.... Because manufacturers have done some "focus group" testing on their own, and "vivid" is what the same "non techs" who participated in the CR survey generally like best.

I read my own posts and do not see where I mention the phrase "focus group". I believe that is a term you used.

I have no idea where they get the non-technical people to review the displays but I would guess they are hourly workers at CR and they are often used for such endeavors.

I only mentioned that the displays are set at the factory because you stated that the discount stores do the set up.

...do not see where I mention the phrase "focus group". I believe that is a term you used....

Uhmmm..., you focus on words, but miss the semantic connections.

I'll try, again:

when your methodology involves collecting opinions about a product from a group of people, with the purpose of determining their likes and dislikes about the product, this quacks a bit like qualitative research, thus my remark that it is "focus group" -like.

...I have no idea where they get the non-technical people to review the displays but I would guess they are hourly workers at CR....

You may be close. They likely get paid a nominal amount for spending a few hours there. They probably had just finished picking the best toaster. Or, had just finished their shift at the cafeteria and wanted to earn an extra buck for watching TV:D

Anyway, I am arguing about CR's methodology, not about Panny vs. Pio. Even though I just got the 6010FD, if you read my earlier posts, I didn't think there was such a major difference between the two brands. I got it because I thought it was the best combo of street price/quality/size for me, at this time. I was initially looking at the new commercial 65" Pannys (and would still take one, at the same price:-)

Oh, man, I'm wiping the tears from my eyes. Nothing gets me laughing like a Hans Gruber -a-thon.

Guys, stop letting him bait you, he's just a button pusher. He repeats the same things over and over, even when presented with physical evidence that contradicts his claims, and when somebody presents him with facts he usually just insults their intelligence or makes elitist comments. I think he just enjoys pushing people for reactions.



Now, THAT is funny.


I know, he's pretty silly. Obviously, I was trying to inject a bit of light hearted humor into an already petty an angry thread. I go to Fry's because it is litterally in walking distance of my home. My wife and I will go on walks and window shop. Sometimes I look at computers, dvds, and even the odd TV. I could, however just avoid the home theater area all together on my next walk as to not lose anymore of waning credibility. Ihope to have as much AVS cred as my boy Hans some day. I know. Impossible you say, but I can dream.

I know!

I will now carry my DVE DVD with me at all times so I can whip it out like a ninja star and adjust random displays like a crazy person. Wwwaaaa kaaaaa! Maybe then, me and Hans can be friends. Want to join my Pani Ninja gang? We'll kick some Kuro ass together!!

Oh, man, I'm wiping the tears from my eyes. Nothing gets me laughing like a Hans Gruber -a-thon.

Guys, stop letting him bait you, he's just a button pusher. He repeats the same things over and over, even when presented with physical evidence that contradicts his claims, and when somebody presents him with facts he usually just insults their intelligence or makes elitist comments. I think he just enjoys pushing people for reactions.



Now, THAT is funny.

Informers really crack me up. :rolleyes:

yes,.....we need two informers to skirmish and my life would be complete

I don't want this thread to die....It's to damned funny

well,..back to business..

any oher sets besides the pio have cablecards? the new LG 60 was rated almost as good as the pio 58 1080 from CR and has a DVR built it...priced from 2800-3400

True, but also they must be truthful enough to maintain their reputation, which allows them to keep attracting readers in the long run.

Because the fewer readers, the fewer the greenbacks paid by those advertisers.

I do thing CS has its place, but I personally prefer the opinion of a knowledgeable reviewer I trust, to that of the cafeteria worker at CS (see my earlier comment on focus groups and why most discount stores set their TVs to "vivid".)

In contrast, my belief is that (however competent the testers) the fact that the only sets they ever test are cherry-picked and hand-calibrated early production units, compromises the test result. The performance and specifications measured from these early units simply will not be representative of the bulk of sets purchased from retail sources, which have only the roughest factory tweeking and may indeed have had major component substitutions such as a cheaper panel.

CR's methodology is simply better. If they do not explore every little feature of every set, it's because that would be meaningless in the context of how such sets are used by the majority of customers, nor would it be of help in ranking performance or measuring value, which are their objectives. What matters is 1) How well a set tunes and displays broadcast television and 2) How well it displays conventional DVD from a scaling DVD player and 3) How well the sets work with the popular gaming consoles. Because relatively few are interested in connecting a PC to their television for other than gaming, and conventional DVD disk releases still outpace both HD disk formats by 25:1.

Now if you simply must have a set that displays every nuance of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and which passes the HQV video tests, and which has the absolute lowest black level possible (because you have painted your walls flat black), then you are probably already a reader of the geeky A/V magazines - and more than one of them at that.

You are also probably hated by all the local brick and mortar managers because every time you take a television home, you've exchanged it three or more times for flaws they are not sure are even real, and which nobody else has complained of.

Well, now you know why - because you simply cannot buy a set from a retail source which equals the quality that the A/V reviewer you trust most saw with his test unit. But after multiple TV exchanges and a lot of tweeking, you can come close.

Just understand how the system works. It's part of being an educated consumer.

I can say with all do certainty that if I purchased one of the top rated displays by CR I would be happy...as would most of the human race. And if I had purchased the #1 rated display I would not then proclaim that company king of all manufacturers and describe everything else as "crap". CR is a great tool. I might not agree with them 100% but I would trust that I would not be disappointed if I followed there advice an any product.

If you look at last years CR issue, Vizio was ranked up near the top because of it's outstanding value when considering price. This year, Panasonic has been extremely aggressive on price. I've only been really watching the pricing for 50" and above, but even the panny haters should be pleased with Panasonics strategy.

This years CR issue had the Vizio display much further down the list over last years issue. Vizio is no longer the low price high value leader with Panasonic really pushing the envelope. The Thanksgiving sales have not hit and I'm starting to wonder if 50" plasmas may show up at $999. This price point would be on the Maxent, Olevia and Vizio platforms.

This discussion is really starting to turn into a battle similiar to speaker wire and audio interconnects. That battle raged on for over a decade. When monoprice came along, they really silenced those who spend too much for interconnects. The snake oil is under control in the interconnects market.

Snake oil is alive and well spreading like MRSA in the plasma market. Who's got some doxycycline to kill off this virus?

I lookeed into getting a vizio and olevia last year..but w/ their low price they never seemed to be discounted or price dropped..This and the other slightly better more expensive units dropped in price made it impossible for me to consider either of those..

When did Olevia start making PDP's? AFAIK they only produce LCD tv's.

...the fact that the only sets they ever test are cherry-picked and hand-calibrated early production units, compromises the test result....


Well, maybe, and maybe not. I've read enough reviews where the review sets had defects not present in later production units. Also, we are not talking about hand-produced items, where there is a significant fluctuation attributable to workmanship. These are basically stamped out and most have similar quality. If anything, as production is fine-tuned, the quality often improves with time. As to parts, maybe sometimes they go cheaper, but often they go for parts which improve on those used in early models.

So, guessing which way quality goes is not that easy. As to pre-calibration, fine, maybe many manufacturers do it, but many reviewers do their own calibration anyway, just like CR does.

The bottom line is, that I believe that while individual reviews certainly have potential flaws, the "focus-group" -like methodology employed by CR is also flawed. After all, it is similar survey methodology which pushes most manufacturers to ship their sets in "vivid."

Some here have a lot of faith in CR. I am not saying they are useless, but based on my experience as a participant in one their appliance quality surveys, their methodology left me rather disappointed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I still think my Pioneer looks better than the Pannys. I was wanting the 700u first until they put up a Pioneer right next to it in the store. Thats when I decided 1080p was not as important as I thought it was.

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. My client was also complaining about light output. Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee. The new commercial units are better, but the black levels are much worse than Pioneer. I have not worked with the latest Samsung plasmas at this time.

We've seen consumer reports rankings, I'm curious, in your opinion, what are the top 5 50 inch Plasma sets?

I'm struggling on deciding what would be the best choice. The Pioneer is said to be best, but how much better is the best? How much blacker? Hear it's black can go as low as .01 ftl but what's the level of the nearest competitor?

Also upset at the fact that Pio. looks to be the only option that can do proper 3:2 reverse telecine. I really want 1080p and 10-bit panel, but not sure I'm ready to part with the dollars demanded by Pio.

We've seen consumer reports rankings, I'm curious, in your opinion, what are the top 5 50 inch Plasma sets?

I'm struggling on deciding what would be the best choice. The Pioneer is said to be best, but how much better is the best? How much blacker? Hear it's black can go as low as .01 ftl but what's the level of the nearest competitor?

Also upset at the fact that Pio. looks to be the only option that can do proper 3:2 reverse telecine. I really want 1080p and 10-bit panel, but not sure I'm ready to part with the dollars demanded by Pio.

I cannot say what the 5 best units are. I have only worked on the latest Pioneer and Panasonic units. I have few requests to work on low cost brands. All I can say is that I will buy a Pioneer Elite next year. I would just save my change and get a Pioneer if you want a plasma.

However, I doubt the other plasmas for this year do not perform inverse telecine.

We've seen consumer reports rankings, I'm curious, in your opinion, what are the top 5 50 inch Plasma sets?

I'm struggling on deciding what would be the best choice. The Pioneer is said to be best, but how much better is the best? How much blacker? Hear it's black can go as low as .01 ftl but what's the level of the nearest competitor?

Also upset at the fact that Pio. looks to be the only option that can do proper 3:2 reverse telecine. I really want 1080p and 10-bit panel, but not sure I'm ready to part with the dollars demanded by Pio.

Buy a Panasonic. They are rated the best and they are the best. Nothing wrong with a Pioneer they make a good plasma too. Just stay away from Samsung. You can see on page one it is ranked too low by the best review magazine that is not bribed into giving glowing reviews. To get a good review in CR the plasma must earn it.

You can usually view Pio, Panny and Samsung side by side. If you do the Panasonic will always have the worst picture: dark, grainy with motion artifacts. Don't listen to the Panny Fanboys check for yourself

You can usually view Pio, Panny and Samsung side by side. If you do the Panasonic will always have the worst picture: dark, grainy with motion artifacts. Don't listen to the Panny Fanboys check for yourselfI will admit the Panasonic 1080p models are dark compared to other brands, but the picture is definitely not grainy. If there are motion artifacts, they must be coming from the source. The picture on my PZ700U is not grainy at all, and i have absolutely no motion artifacts. Where are you seeing these Panasonic problems? In your own home? Or at stores?

You can usually view Pio, Panny and Samsung side by side. If you do the Panasonic will always have the worst picture: dark, grainy with motion artifacts. Don't listen to the Panny Fanboys check for yourself

Everyone can check the picture quality. Samsung flickers and judders when the background is white. It is very annoying to watch. Samsung breaks down more often. Read the Consumer Reports review. They don't lie. They rank Vizio higher than Samsung and rightfully so.

Panasonic and Pioneer Elite are the best. Panasonic is a bright clean picture that is fun to watch. The regular Pioneer isn't as great, but it is still good.

Consumer Reports Scores

Panasonic TH-50PZ700U - 81 :D
Panasonic TH-50PX75U -- 78 :D
Vizio JV50P ---------------- 72
Samsung 5084 ------------ 68 :(

Why would anyone want to buy the lowest rated plasma? Samsung scored a D which is a failing grade.

Buy a Panasonic and be happy that you have the best plasma.

You can usually view Pio, Panny and Samsung side by side. If you do the Panasonic will always have the worst picture: dark, grainy with motion artifacts. Don't listen to the Panny Fanboys check for yourself

Omeletpants - your unsubstantiated, redundant Panny bashing posts are seriously starting to sound like a broken record. If there was an /ignore option on this forum, you would be at the top of my list.

Many of us are very happy with the PQ : price ratio on our Pany 700 series plasmas [which, when combined with the reliability statistics, is undoubtedly the rationale supporting CR's positive review]. These are good panels for budget minded consumers and they have received good, but not great, reviews across the board. At half the price of an equivalent Pioneer, I can live without the world's best black levels and 1080p/24.

I will admit the Panasonic 1080p models are dark compared to other brands, but the picture is definitely not grainy. If there are motion artifacts, they must be coming from the source. The picture on my PZ700U is not grainy at all, and i have absolutely no motion artifacts. Where are you seeing these Panasonic problems? In your own home? Or at stores?

Amen to that. As usual, Randy hits the nail on the head.

I cannot say what the 5 best units are. I have only worked on the latest Pioneer and Panasonic units. I have few requests to work on low cost brands. All I can say is that I will buy a Pioneer Elite next year. I would just save my change and get a Pioneer if you want a plasma.

However, I doubt the other plasmas for this year do not perform inverse telecine.

Thanks for your input UMR. As far as reverse telecine, from what I'm reading, I don't think any other sets perform this properly. I'm going by the fact that the sets don't do 72hz or any other multiple of 24hz.

Also, I see Cnet failing them in 1080i film resolution. My thought being this is due to not performing reverse telecine correctly. Am I missing something?

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-fp-t5084/4505-6482_7-32460966.html?tag=uolst

Omeletpants - your unsubstantiated, redundant Panny bashing posts are seriously starting to sound like a broken record. If there was an /ignore option on this forum, you would be at the top of my list.

Many of us are very happy with the PQ : price ratio on our Pany 700 series plasmas [which, when combined with the reliability statistics, is undoubtedly the rationale supporting CR's positive review]. These are good panels for budget minded consumers and they have received good, but not great, reviews across the board. At half the price of an equivalent Pioneer, I can live without the world's best black levels and 1080p/24.

I totally agree. Panasonic is a bad @ss TV. If I came over to your house and saw you had a new Panny 700u, I would compliment you on how cool your TV is. I still chose to Pio because to me it looks better. Thats all that really matters.

Buy a Panasonic. They are rated the best and they are the best. Nothing wrong with a Pioneer they make a good plasma too. Just stay away from Samsung. You can see on page one it is ranked too low by the best review magazine that is not bribed into giving glowing reviews. To get a good review in CR the plasma must earn it.

If I implicity trusted CR reviews, I wouldn't be asking the question here. I've been posting on forums and collecting info. from them for several years. The folks on the forum more often than not have insight into products that CR just doesn't have. You have to consider the amount of time and effort CR puts into reviewing things. It just can't compare to the time and experience of forum members like UMR. It's really great to have someone like him answer your questions.

More often than not the board members give me better info. that the magazine reviews.

Mike

I will admit the Panasonic 1080p models are dark compared to other brands, but the picture is definitely not grainy. If there are motion artifacts, they must be coming from the source. The picture on my PZ700U is not grainy at all, and i have absolutely no motion artifacts. Where are you seeing these Panasonic problems? In your own home? Or at stores?

I would never own a Panasonic, so it would be the stores. Side-by-side the Panny exhibits problems not seen on the Pioneer or Samsung. I see this everywhere I go. You can say the problem is the feed but if that's the case then why don't the others exhibit those same issues on the same feed?

I will admit that I did see the latest Panny twice last weekend and of all the times I have compared the new ones looked pretty good. However, it wasn't in the class of the Kuro and it was dark and gloomy compared to the Samsung. But for anyone to say the Panasonic is superior is just a fanboy

Thanks for your input UMR. As far as reverse telecine, from what I'm reading, I don't think any other sets perform this properly. I'm going by the fact that the sets don't do 72hz or any other multiple of 24hz.

Also, I see Cnet failing them in 1080i film resolution. My thought being this is due to not performing reverse telecine correctly. Am I missing something?

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-fp-t5084/4505-6482_7-32460966.html?tag=uolst

Probably. Judder removal is different from inverse telecine. The difference between a 3:3 progressive cadence and 3:2 is very subtle. The difference between 1080i that is not inverse telecined when it is film to 3:2 progressive is huge.

I do not see many displays failing to resolve 1080i completely these days. I would be careful about these ratings. They may just not know how to properly set the product up. I see this all the time in my work. This of course will happen to most consumers as well. It is more a problem with the complexity of todays products than a lack of processing in many cases. This is probably less true with products from very low cost manufacturers.

The forum is not properly weighting what aspects of a display are most important for a quality image in most cases in IMO. Many minor features are fretted over while major factors are ignored.

Probably. Judder removal is different from inverse telecine. The difference between a 3:3 progressive cadence and 3:2 is very subtle. The difference between 1080i that is not inverse telecined when it is film to 3:2 progressive is huge.

I do not see many displays failing to resolve 1080i completely these days. I would be careful about these ratings. They may just not know how to properly set the product up. I see this all the time in my work. This of course will happen to most consumers as well. It is more a problem with the complexity of todays products than a lack of processing in many cases. This is probably less true with products from very low cost manufacturers.

The forum is not properly weighting what aspects of a display are most important for a quality image in most cases in IMO. Many minor features are fretted over while major factors are ignored.

Hmm, that's interesting, I was concerned with proper reverse telecine after reading an article about processings tests done by HDguru where they claim the vast majority of sets don't do very well in the processing department, scaling, deinterlacing, and reverse 3:2.

That being said, what do you think are the most important aspects to look for in a display?

I've thought the following.

1: CR ratio.
2: Proper gray scale ramp (black level) and ability to resolve shadow detail.
3: Color accuracy
4: Processing
5: Resolution

I was thinking of the Pioneer Pro-FHD1, but the raves are in about the new 8G glass due to black level.

Mike

Omeletpants - your unsubstantiated, redundant Panny bashing posts are seriously starting to sound like a broken record.

But doogiehowser's oh-so-well-informed and exhaustively researched Korean-bashing Panasonic fanboyism is music to your ears?

Here's a fly in the ointment: WHAT HiFi? ranks the UK Samsung PS-50Q97HDX plasma as the best performance per dollar set on the market. However, it's no competition in quality terms for the Pioneer 5080, which it proclaims is so much better than any other flat panel you can buy, that it is not much of a stretch to say it's a revolution in televisions. "Fair to say it's the best telly we've ever seen". Says that the Panasonic 50PZ700 is a Full HD Plasma from ONE OF THE BEST (note, Panny fanboys - not THE BEST) brands in the business, but that the "Pioneer's black levels flatten it". The summary for the best-rated Samsung: "Detail is amazing, while contrast levels and faithful blacks make for an amazing watching experience. There's a good quality digital tuner built-in and the build and finish are impressive". Pioneer and Samsung get 5 stars; the Panasonic gets 4. They give the Panasonic 50PX70 5 stars, but still rank it behind the Samsunug overall.

WHAT HiFi? is a far more comprehensive magazine than any I've seen that are produced on this side of the pond. I really do have to laugh at the Panasonic fanboys, though - at the beginning of this thread, Hans Gruber said that his Panasonic TV finised 3rd in the CR reviews, behind the 58" Panasonic and a "Hitachi, of all things". Why exactly would that be surprising? What, did he think something like an electric blender would finish 2nd? At least this year Panasonic has decided to give their customers a decent-looking bezel and stand. Looking at the cheap, plasticky 60 and 600 series from last year, it's not hard to see how Panasonic was able to offer such aggressive pricing.

...
That being said, what do you think are the most important aspects to look for in a display?

I've thought the following.

1: CR ratio.
2: Proper gray scale ramp (black level) and ability to resolve shadow detail.
3: Color accuracy
4: Processing
5: Resolution

I was thinking of the Pioneer Pro-FHD1, but the raves are in about the new 8G glass due to black level.

Mike

It is tough to give a specific rating because very poor performance in one area can wreck a perfectly good product.

I would rate products for a specific application based on something like the following:

1. Gamma, color accuracy, light output, black level, minimal to no loss of bit depth
2. Light engine artifacts (rainbows, SSE, chromatic abberations...)
3. Screen size
4. Geometric accuracy
5. Resolution
6. Inverse telecine performance
7. Scaler performance
8. Motion adaptive deinterlacer performance
9. Display input number and type
10. User menu flexibility
11. Support of remote discrete codes
12. Support of Deep Color
13. Judder removal
14. Automatic lipsync support
15. Support of xvYCC color space

I would never own a Panasonic, so it would be the stores. Side-by-side the Panny exhibits problems not seen on the Pioneer or Samsung. I see this everywhere I go. You can say the problem is the feed but if that's the case then why don't the others exhibit those same issues on the same feed?

I will admit that I did see the latest Panny twice last weekend and of all the times I have compared the new ones looked pretty good. However, it wasn't in the class of the Kuro and it was dark and gloomy compared to the Samsung. But for anyone to say the Panasonic is superior is just a fanboy

Everything you say is absurd. You can't just walk into a BB or Circuit City and base your decision on uncallibrated sets. When you consider price and reliability Panasonic is at the top of Consumer Reports lists for the last 20 years. Panasonic products break less than every other manufacturer with the exception of Toshiba which has invested most of their time in DLP tvs.

Pioneer has always been known to be one of the most unreliable of the Japanese brands. You can also include Hitachi and Sony in poorer reliability.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Pioneer 5080 is not 1920x1080 it's 1366x768. The black levels of the Pioneer didn't look natural but exageratedl. The colors were not smooth and the plasma was hardly revolutionary. I've looked at the Pioneer 5080 at a real Magnolia Hifi store. For all of you noobs, Magnolia Hifi is a Seattle based company purchased by Best Buy.

But doogiehowser's oh-so-well-informed and exhaustively researched Korean-bashing Panasonic fanboyism is music to your ears?

Here's a fly in the ointment: WHAT HiFi? ranks the UK Samsung PS-50Q97HDX plasma as the best performance per dollar set on the market. However, it's no competition in quality terms for the Pioneer 5080, which it proclaims is so much better than any other flat panel you can buy, that it is not much of a stretch to say it's a revolution in televisions. "Fair to say it's the best telly we've ever seen". Says that the Panasonic 50PZ700 is a Full HD Plasma from ONE OF THE BEST (note, Panny fanboys - not THE BEST) brands in the business, but that the "Pioneer's black levels flatten it". The summary for the best-rated Samsung: "Detail is amazing, while contrast levels and faithful blacks make for an amazing watching experience. There's a good quality digital tuner built-in and the build and finish are impressive". Pioneer and Samsung get 5 stars; the Panasonic gets 4. They give the Panasonic 50PX70 5 stars, but still rank it behind the Samsunug overall.

WHAT HiFi? is a far more comprehensive magazine than any I've seen that are produced on this side of the pond. I really do have to laugh at the Panasonic fanboys, though - at the beginning of this thread, Hans Gruber said that his Panasonic TV finised 3rd in the CR reviews, behind the 58" Panasonic and a "Hitachi, of all things". Why exactly would that be surprising? What, did he think something like an electric blender would finish 2nd? At least this year Panasonic has decided to give their customers a decent-looking bezel and stand. Looking at the cheap, plasticky 60 and 600 series from last year, it's not hard to see how Panasonic was able to offer such aggressive pricing.

You've got a lot of nerve insulting the great Hans Gruber. I'm going to cut you some slack because you're Canadian and probably don't know any better. If I had a loonie or toonie for every time somebody slammed Panasonic in favor of Pioneer, I'd have enough coins to buy a Pioneer Elite.

The UK uses PAL which is significantly different than NTSC used by team America. Those wanks also use direct current instead of AC current we use here in north america.

The 600U is not ugly. Most people think the 600U looks great and has a superior stand to the 60U. It has a cable card slot, SD Card Slot, PC input, TV guide, accepts 1080p signals and offers the best built in speakers of any plasma.

I like the look of the current generation Panasonic plasmas. Vizio is going to struggle greatly because of Panasonics ability to drive down pricing. This in turn makes Pioneer plasmas appear to be a waste of money. Considering you could buy a Blue Ray and HD-DVD player with a Panasonic plasma for the same price you would pay for a Pioneer 5080. If low prices were not important, people wouldn't shop at Costco.

I'm the best!

HAHA! Well I would think they would be evaluating a HD plasma with a High Definition signal and not SD PAL.

I looked at a lot of panels both LCD and Plasma before I purchased my Sammy 5084 and I'll have to say I don't agree with the review by CR.
I'm pretty sure the KURO owners are a bit miffed as well.
Bottom line....I'm happy with my purchase and I hope everyone who has researched and purchased a panel is satisfied with their decision.
I'm glad there are so many choices at different price points and I have what I think is the most panel I could afford within my budget.

Everything you say is absurd. You can't just walk into a BB or Circuit City and base your decision on uncallibrated sets. When you consider price and reliability Panasonic is at the top of Consumer Reports lists for the last 20 years. Panasonic products break less than every other manufacturer with the exception of Toshiba which has invested most of their time in DLP tvs.



99% of plasma owners do not have their sets calibrated and you shouldn't have to spend an additional $500 to get performance. So, dealing in reality of how consumers use their sets Panasonic falls short.

Panasonic has not been in the plasma business for 20 years. The first consumer sets were sold in 1994. Panasonic has had a varied reputation for reliability. Their cordless phone line was terrible for many years and their audio equipment was considered low qaulity from a performance and reliability standard.

I agree w/ egg pants.

regardless of CR or anybody else

the brightness and crispness of the samsung is more evident then the panny and pio w/ they all have the same BB HD feed

why?

and why is it not even appauded by more reviewers?..

But. the SD is worse then the other two..not to mention souns

Panasonic has had a varied reputation for reliability.

I still have my first DVD player (still working) - a Panasonic model (w/DTS) purchased Fall 1998 ($400). I don't use it in my main setup since it only has S-video and composite outputs [as there were no Component, DVI, or HDMI outputs in '98].

As for plasmas, I've been viewing many models closely since this past spring, and based on quality, reliability and price-value, in a few more weeks [probably Black Friday weekend], I will be purchasing one of the 720p 50" Panasonic models at a discount price. In my weekly visit to various retailers [to buy bargain-priced DVDs] the best image I've seen was on the 58" 720p Panasonic plasma [PX75U I think] - haven't viewed the newer 58" 1080p model yet, but I bet it rocks too.

I'm a current Sharp Aquos LCD owner moving to my first plasma, and one of the main reasons is because I'm really tired of "grayish blacks" in my dark theater room. Regardless of my lowering the LCD's picture control settings, there just are no real blacks with LCDs that use CCFL backlighting.

~ For Reliability, Quality, and Value - to me, PANASONIC is the best name in plasma! ~

Looking on the bright side :) there are many good plasmas out there. The Sammy, Pioneer, Panny fans have certainly had their say here. If you're new to this and looking for a new plasma, you can't go wrong. :cool:

I still have my first DVD player (still working) - a Panasonic model (w/DTS) purchased Fall 1998 ($400). I don't use it in my main setup since it only has S-video and composite outputs [as there were no Component, DVI, or HDMI outputs in '98].

As for plasmas, I've been viewing many models closely since this past spring, and based on quality, reliability and price-value, in a few more weeks [probably Black Friday weekend], I will be purchasing one of the 720p 50" Panasonic models at a discount price. In my weekly visit to various retailers [to buy bargain-priced DVDs] the best image I've seen was on the 58" 720p Panasonic plasma [PX75U I think] - haven't viewed the newer 58" 1080p model yet, but I bet it rocks too.

I'm a current Sharp Aquos LCD owner moving to my first plasma, and one of the main reasons is because I'm really tired of "grayish blacks" in my dark theater room. Regardless of my lowering the LCD's picture control settings, there just are no real blacks with LCDs that use CCFL backlighting.

~ For Reliability, Quality, and Value - to me, PANASONIC is the best name in plasma! ~

Glad that your 1998 Panny DVD player still works, but that kind of story is anecdotal and not proof of quality across millions of items produced. You would have to have internal data from every manufacturer and this is not available to the public. So, you are just providing a personal experience not fact.

You have been researching plasmas and like the Panny. That's great and I hope it works great for you. I applaud the fact that you have gone out and done your homework and made a decision based upon that. What I do scoff at is those that buy anything based on one article without doing extensive research. That's the case with many panny buyers. If you talk to salespeople they say the typical Panny buyer comes into the store waving the CR article and knows nothing about the alternatives. That's brainless buying.

I would never own a Panasonic, so it would be the stores. Side-by-side the Panny exhibits problems not seen on the Pioneer or Samsung. I see this everywhere I go. You can say the problem is the feed but if that's the case then why don't the others exhibit those same issues on the same feed?

I will admit that I did see the latest Panny twice last weekend and of all the times I have compared the new ones looked pretty good. However, it wasn't in the class of the Kuro and it was dark and gloomy compared to the Samsung. But for anyone to say the Panasonic is superior is just a fanboy

So let me get this straight, Rusty Pelican's "anecdotal" evidence proves nothing - but your own experiences and observations, based on your limited viewing of uncalibrated sets (undoubtedly set to torch mode) under big box store lighting makes you an expert on the failings of Pany's PQ? Not only have you revealed yourself to be an ignorant flamer, but a hypocrite as well.

Kindly refrain from further poisoning the well with your misinformed, logically flawed commentary. Professional calibration is not required to coax excellent PQ out of these panels - borrowed user settings from the owners thread work just fine. You have admitted that you have no experience with the performance of Panasonic's panels under regular viewing conditions, so stop pretending otherwise.

Why is it plasma owners on this board are so mean spirited and have to pronounce "My TV is the best TV EVER and yours is crap!" You just don't see this kind of stuff over on the LCD side of the board. Plasma vs LCD, Pio vs Panny, Panny vs Samsung, Eite vs Non-Elite.

I am a new plasma owner and I love my TV. I think a lot plasma owners here on AVS need to take a deep breath and count to 10.

So let me get this straight, Rusty Pelican's "anecdotal" evidence proves nothing - but your own experiences and observations, based on your limited viewing of uncalibrated sets (undoubtedly set to torch mode) under big box store lighting makes you an expert on the failings of Pany's PQ? Not only have you revealed yourself to be an ignorant flamer, but a hypocrite as well.

Kindly refrain from further poisoning the well with your misinformed, logically flawed commentary. Professional calibration is not required to coax excellent PQ out of these panels - borrowed user settings from the owners thread work just fine. You have admitted that you have no experience with the performance of Panasonic's panels under regular viewing conditions, so stop pretending otherwise.

Yeah, experience with one DVD player against millions produced is anecdotal evidence. Sorry that you have no understanding of mean time to failure analysis nor access to that information. For someone to say that panasonic quality is better then I expect to see some evidence. He has provided none and in fact, talked about how he viewed sets in stores and was able to judge quality. Tell me how you assess quality data from a viewing? That's not a very scientific method and I'm surprised that you support that conclusion.

Rarely do I see Panny sets in stores in torch mode unless torch mode means dingy, dark and lifeless. If that's torch mode, I would hate to see what happens with the other settings. It's incumbent upon the manufacturer to ship their sets with settings that will best display the plasmas capabilities. They know the conditions these sets will be displayed so maybe Panasonic is just stupid or doesn't care about how their sets look. Rant on fanboy and keep defending your purchase.

Why is it plasma owners on this board are so mean spirited and have to pronounce "My TV is the best TV EVER and yours is crap!" You just don't see this kind of stuff over on the LCD side of the board. Plasma vs LCD, Pio vs Panny, Panny vs Samsung, Eite vs Non-Elite.

I am a new plasma owner and I love my TV. I think a lot plasma owners here on AVS need to take a deep breath and count to 10.

I think they got sick of fighting about HD DVD and BD and need to fight about something.

You can't take most of them seriously. Use your own eyes. You'll be happy with any of these displays.

Pay attention to the threads about product issues and settings. These threads are purely for entertainment...pulp fiction.

Use your own eyes. You'll be happy with any of these displays.

See, that's what I was relating - my eyes and viewing many models, several times, over several months, and at several stores.

Don't know about the calibration [didn't ask], as I still felt the 58" Panny had the best image, and it obviously was not in the "torch" [dynamic or vivid] mode, as I'm real sensitive to overly bright and oversaturated images - since I've been disappointed with my LCD's black levels , so if the Panny had been on "vivid" etc it would have been real noticeable.

I'm not knocking the Samsung plasmas either, as I don't have as much experience with their brand. However, the Sammy's images seem a little too sharp, from the times I've viewed them, and am curious if it's the TV's sharpness control turned up, or artificial "[B]edge ehancement" (which I hate on standard-def DVD discs). The Panny plasmas just look better to me [although the premium Pioneer Kuro's are an upgrade in black levels, and cost too].

I still have my first DVD player (still working) - a Panasonic model (w/DTS) purchased Fall 1998 ($400). I don't use it in my main setup since it only has S-video and composite outputs [as there were no Component, DVI, or HDMI outputs in '98].

As for plasmas, I've been viewing many models closely since this past spring, and based on quality, reliability and price-value, in a few more weeks [probably Black Friday weekend], I will be purchasing one of the 720p 50" Panasonic models at a discount price. In my weekly visit to various retailers [to buy bargain-priced DVDs] the best image I've seen was on the 58" 720p Panasonic plasma [PX75U I think] - haven't viewed the newer 58" 1080p model yet, but I bet it rocks too.

I'm a current Sharp Aquos LCD owner moving to my first plasma, and one of the main reasons is because I'm really tired of "grayish blacks" in my dark theater room. Regardless of my lowering the LCD's picture control settings, there just are no real blacks with LCDs that use CCFL backlighting.

~ For Reliability, Quality, and Value - to me, PANASONIC is the best name in plasma! ~

Hate to pull rank here, Rusty. I have the original Toshiba flagship DVD player from 1997. I bought it in August 1997 and the model 3006 has component video inputs. Component inputs were available upon release of the DVD format. I can't speak for entry level players but the original Toshiba flagship has component inputs. It's the loudest player that I've ever heard. The original Video Essentials disk uses the Toshiba 3006 remote in the demos with the Toshiba logo covered up.

I would suggest you purchase the 77U over the 75U. I assume just like my 600U, the current generation pannys accept 1080p signals from sources with internal 1080p processiong. I don't know if Pioneer or Samsung 1366x768 plasmas accept 1080p signals from Blue Ray or HD-DVD players. I'm using the Philips DVP-5982 standard def DVD player that upconverts standard DVD's to 1080p.

99% of plasma owners do not have their sets calibrated and you shouldn't have to spend an additional $500 to get performance. So, dealing in reality of how consumers use their sets Panasonic falls short.

Panasonic has not been in the plasma business for 20 years. The first consumer sets were sold in 1994. Panasonic has had a varied reputation for reliability. Their cordless phone line was terrible for many years and their audio equipment was considered low qaulity from a performance and reliability standard.

Omeletpants, your statements are completely false. Cordless phones were terrible by every manufacturer for well over 10 years. We are talking about plasmas here. Panasonic is on its 10th generation plasma while Pioneer is on its 8th and I think Samsung is on it's 6th generation plasma. I'm not sure which company invented plasma technology, I think it may be Fujitsu.

Technics was Panasonics line of AV equipment and for years they made the best CD and phono players on the market. They also made very good surround sound receivers at the time.

Panasonics reliability has been their strongest attribute for decades. If you know anything about Japan you would know that Japan is run by a kiratsu. If my spelling is wrong, sorry. This is a tightly guarded monopoly of vendors who control who gets into the Japanese market. The kiratsu controls the sales of components and parts. This form of collusion is illegal in the United States. That's why Mitsubishi makes electronics, cars and a whole lot of other stuff. The same can be said about Panasonics parent company Matsushita.

History lesson is over for now.

99% of plasma owners do not have their sets calibrated and you shouldn't have to spend an additional $500 to get performance. So, dealing in reality of how consumers use their sets Panasonic falls short.

Panasonic has not been in the plasma business for 20 years. The first consumer sets were sold in 1994. Panasonic has had a varied reputation for reliability. Their cordless phone line was terrible for many years and their audio equipment was considered low qaulity from a performance and reliability standard.

I would say that 90% of plasma owners here have calibrated their plasmas by either using Digital Video Essentials or AVIA or used settings from others who have had their sets professionally calibrated. Unlike Rear Projection CRT's, I see little difference in picture between identical plasmas using the same settings.

What are you Smoking? Those magazines take ad revenue from the very products they review. Consumer Reports does not take any advertising. I used to subscribe to Home Theater Magazine until they reviewed a Cary Audio Pre/Pro Amp combo with an advertisement and endorsement from Home Theater in the same issue the product was reviewed. Cary Audio glowed about their review in Home Theater Magazine in the same issue it was reviewed in. If that's not selling ads, I don't know what is.

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.
I said it months ago and I will say it again. I told you so. I was not impressed with the Pioneer 5080 or the Samsung. Panasonic makes the best plasmas by performance and cost.

AVS forum is biased by forum sponsors selling Pioneer plasmas and Pioneer fans who only see perfection in Pioneer when perfection does not reflect the picture quality.

I have always said Pioneer Elites are excellent but very expensive.

It's another clean sweep for Panasonic. The main reason for the big price drops in plasma pricing is directly due to Panasonic and Vizio with their pricing wars.

Amen to that..they have a VERY thorough testing facility and go to great lengths to review items..they don't just plug a TV in and ask 4 or five staffers.."Does that look good to you??"....The calibrate, run it through many tests and report their findings...

I sure don't trust many website or magazine reviews that rely on advertising money to survive.

Omeletpants, your statements are completely false. Cordless phones were terrible by every manufacturer for well over 10 years. We are talking about plasmas here. Panasonic is on its 10th generation plasma while Pioneer is on its 8th and I think Samsung is on it's 6th generation plasma. I'm not sure which company invented plasma technology, I think it may be Fujitsu.

Technics was Panasonics line of AV equipment and for years they made the best CD and phono players on the market. They also made very good surround sound receivers at the time.

Panasonics reliability has been their strongest attribute for decades. If you know anything about Japan you would know that Japan is run by a kiratsu. If my spelling is wrong, sorry. This is a tightly guarded monopoly of vendors who control who gets into the Japanese market. The kiratsu controls the sales of components and parts. This form of collusion is illegal in the United States. That's why Mitsubishi makes electronics, cars and a whole lot of other stuff. The same can be said about Panasonics parent company Matsushita.

History lesson is over for now.

Is that the revisionist history lesson?

Panasonic cordless phones have been terrible until 4 years ago. They couldn't figure out the RF portion of the phone and they worked poorly.

Having been an audiophile since the early 80's I can tell you that Panasonics/Technics. was never considered anywhere near world-class. Go to any audio forum and tell them that and see what they say.

Great if you like Panasonic products but stop trying to claim they are world-class to bolster your argument

Amen to that..they have a VERY thorough testing facility and go to great lengths to review items..they don't just plug a TV in and ask 4 or five staffers.."Does that look good to you??"....The calibrate, run it through many tests and report their findings...

I sure don't trust many website or magazine reviews that rely on advertising money to survive.

Where do you guys get these ideas? Anytime a new display shows a significant advancement, members posts all kinds of fanfare on these boards because they are excited about the advancement. When Panasonic was offering the best black levels that's what was being promoted on the boards. When Sharp came out with the best LCD the market had seen, there was lots of positive fan fare for it. Why is this any different? Why are you guys so upset that Pioneer is getting lots of positive feedback on the boards?

anyone who thinks the panny 50" 1080p plasma is better then the samsung 5084 or pio 5080 is a human wasteland and should hit themselves repeatedly with a hammer.

anyone who thinks the panny 50" 1080p plasma is better then the samsung 5084 or pio 5080 is a human wasteland and should hit themselves repeatedly with a hammer.
Sounds like you have done that to yourself too many times already. Jackass:rolleyes:

Yeah, experience with one DVD player against millions produced is anecdotal evidence. Sorry that you have no understanding of mean time to failure analysis nor access to that information. For someone to say that panasonic quality is better then I expect to see some evidence. He has provided none and in fact, talked about how he viewed sets in stores and was able to judge quality. Tell me how you assess quality data from a viewing? That's not a very scientific method and I'm surprised that you support that conclusion.

Rarely do I see Panny sets in stores in torch mode unless torch mode means dingy, dark and lifeless. If that's torch mode, I would hate to see what happens with the other settings. It's incumbent upon the manufacturer to ship their sets with settings that will best display the plasmas capabilities. They know the conditions these sets will be displayed so maybe Panasonic is just stupid or doesn't care about how their sets look. Rant on fanboy and keep defending your purchase.

I will break this down into points so we're not talking past one another:

1. I wasn't trying to validate any conclusion drawn by another poster on the basis of anecdotal evidence - I was simply pointing out the irony of your criticism on this basis. Your own harsh and reiterated statements about Panasonic's products are also based on anecdotal evidence - so if anecdotal evidence is irrelevant, so is your commentary.

2. You have admitted that you have never viewed a current gen Pany plasma outside of a big box showroom, thus you have no legitimate insight to offer on the topic of Pany's PQ when the settings are proper and the lighting reasonably controlled.

3. Torch mode looks quite bright and painfully oversaturated, so you are probably correct that the panel you viewed had been set to an alternative picture mode. If, by contrast, the panel was set to Cinema in a brightly lit room, it would make sense that it looked dim in comparison to the others. Did you ever check the picture mode - and can you conceive of the possibility that your big box store of choice has arbitrary selected a mode or settings that fail to stand out under floor lighting? Picture settings, relative to the lighting, are the key to this whole debate, and until you have established that the model panel was setup correctly under the applicable lighting conditions, you should withhold judgment.

4. The 700/750U models I've seen in store have been in Magnolia setups, displaying Blueray feeds. Under these conditions, the PQ is very nice.

5. You are mischaracterizing me as a fanboy. I have never claimed that Pany's consumer panels match pioneers performance benchmark - they don't. Premium PQ and processing comes a premium price. I simply stand by my purchase as a satisfied consumer who feels he has received good PQ per dollar spent. The same is likely true of the Samsung 5084 - I just haven't had the opportunity to watch one at length; so I refrain from pronouncing uninformed judgment. Would that we could all agree to do the same.

anyone who thinks the panny 50" 1080p plasma is better then the samsung 5084 or pio 5080 is a human wasteland and should hit themselves repeatedly with a hammer.

Samsung sucks. It is garbage and not worth owning.

I did a quick inventory of people who own plasmas. Four people I know have Panasonic and all love it, very reliable and great picture. One has a Pioneer and loves it. One has a Samsung but nobody goes to his house because he is a weirdo.

Buying a Samsung is like having sex with a fat woman. She has the right parts but who wants them?

Buying a Samsung is like confusing McDonalds with a steakhouse.

Someone should do a scientific study to find out who buys Samsung. I would bet money most are first time Plasma virgins who didn't know Samsung sucks. These people don't learn until six months later when they visit a friend who has a Panasonic and they see what quality looks like.

They were warned. Consumer Reports told them Samsung sucks. If they don't listen then they will have to live with an inferior product for many months until it breaks down.

Where do you guys get these ideas? Anytime a new display shows a significant advancement, members posts all kinds of fanfare on these boards because they are excited about the advancement. When Panasonic was offering the best black levels that's what was being promoted on the boards. When Sharp came out with the best LCD the market had seen, there was lots of positive fan fare for it. Why is this any different? Why are you guys so upset that Pioneer is getting lots of positive feedback on the boards?

First off, the performance of the new Pioneer 5080 is pure propaganda. Secondly, the forum fanfare for Pioneer is huge here because forum sponsors make a lot more money selling overpriced Pioneers vs. Panasonic or Samsung. Furthermore, the propaganda presented by forum sponsors makes it less likely an AVS reader will want to return their plasma if they don't like it. The word is drop shipper, once you buy it, it's yours. Unless anyone has experience returning a unit they don't like. If the purchaser doesn't like the Pioneer or any other plasma that is drop shipped, they pass it onto Pioneer tech. The forum sponsors are all authorized resellers their method of delivery is to drop ship.

I bought my Panasonic 50PX-600U from Newegg.com. They actually have the product in stock in their warehouse. However, my plasma was no returnable if I was unsatisfied so it was in essence, drop shipped. I'm not knocking drop shippers, I just get frustrated listening to them post all of this propaganda about Pioneer's 8th generation plasma being revolutionary when its not. It all about the money and profit margins.

If you read my past posts I've always praised the Pioneer Elites, but I don't think they are worth the price premium charged by resellers. Pioneer does not allow drop shipping of the elite series or as many online retailers like to call it, online sales. I have not seen the Kuro line yet in person.

With the dramatic price reductions on 50" plasma over the last 6 months, Vizio is going to be feeling the most pressure and heat from competition. Vizio's are decent but now that their pricing is inline with better displays, they're in trouble.

I always look at value vs. performance. When you compare the Panasonic 50" 75U to the Pioneer 5080, the price difference is in excess of $500 and maybe more. This hardly makes the Pioneer a good value.

In conclusion the great running back LaDalian Tomlinson is endorsing Vizio plasmas. This is not right, if he were endorsing Panasonic, Pioneer or Samsung, I wouldn't mind but it really ticks me off that he's pushing Vizio. Endorsing Vizio is like making Ryan Leaf the starting quarterback of the Chargers again with LaDalian in the backfield.

Samsung sucks. It is garbage and not worth owning.

I did a quick inventory of people who own plasmas. Four people I know have Panasonic and all love it, very reliable and great picture. One has a Pioneer and loves it. One has a Samsung but nobody goes to his house because he is a weirdo.

Buying a Samsung is like having sex with a fat woman. She has the right parts but who wants them?

Buying a Samsung is like confusing McDonalds with a steakhouse.

Someone should do a scientific study to find out who buys Samsung. I would bet money most are first time Plasma virgins who didn't know Samsung sucks. These people don't learn until six months later when they visit a friend who has a Panasonic and they see what quality looks like.

They were warned. Consumer Reports told them Samsung sucks. If they don't listen then they will have to live with an inferior product for many months until it breaks down.

That's just uncalled for. Samsung makes good products. And Doogie Howser would never have sex with a fat woman or any woman, because he's gay. However, growing up watching Doogie Howser and watching him on How I Met Your Mother, he's a comic genius who happens to be gay. A great actor period. You are a disgrace to the name.

I on the otherhand represent Hans Gruber about as well as can be done. I'm the best!

I on the otherhand represent Hans Gruber about as well as can be done. I'm the best!

Deutschland, Deutschland, Gruber Alles . . . . . . . . .

Having been an audiophile since the early 80's I can tell you that Panasonics/Technics. was never considered anywhere near world-class.

With excellent prices, simple design and reliability, the TECHNICS phono turntables have been (and are) the most popular and durable, and preferred by DJs and scratchers everywhere the world over, so they are indeed "world-class". Audiphiles since the "early '80s" should know this! :cool:

oh yea...all hail hans!!!!.....

classics are being written before our very eyes in this thread.


deadcrowsflywest says: A++ would read post 217 again

http://www.songfight.org/artists/hans_gruber_ultimate_villain.jpg

Samsung sucks. It is garbage and not worth owning.

I did a quick inventory of people who own plasmas. Four people I know have Panasonic and all love it, very reliable and great picture. One has a Pioneer and loves it. One has a Samsung but nobody goes to his house because he is a weirdo.

Buying a Samsung is like having sex with a fat woman. She has the right parts but who wants them?

Buying a Samsung is like confusing McDonalds with a steakhouse.

Someone should do a scientific study to find out who buys Samsung. I would bet money most are first time Plasma virgins who didn't know Samsung sucks. These people don't learn until six months later when they visit a friend who has a Panasonic and they see what quality looks like.

They were warned. Consumer Reports told them Samsung sucks. If they don't listen then they will have to live with an inferior product for many months until it breaks down.


The type language you have used in your post to make your point really shows you are as martter of fact a "senior Member".


The type language you have used in your post to make your point really shows you are as matter of fact a "senior Member".

With all this hoopla over _Consumer Reports_ ratings, why is there no talk about the recent _PC World_ ratings? (I have a real question at the end.)

In a chart (see http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,126398/article.html), _PC World_ lists the top 10 HDTVs, mixing LCDs and plasmas. (I think the chart is on page 114 of the November issue; at least that’s the reference I came across.)

The two 42-inch sets I’ve been considering do not make the top 10 on the chart: Pioneer PDP-4280HD and Panasonic TH-42PZ700U (although the TH-PV700U does poorly at No. 8 despite having a “great” picture.)

PC World does weigh price as 25% of its ratings (unlike _Consumer Reports_, which, as I understand it, considers price only in awarding its “Best Buy” tags, not in its ratings).

Apparently _PC World_ did test the Panasonic TH-42PZ700U in another article, and it rated well down the list (see the article on page 110 in the November issue of PC World, “LCD vs. Plasma . . . ,” at http://preview.*******.com/2eg69q [I hope these links work for you. I reached these articles via the Berkeley Library’s research links using my library card.]

Here is an excerpt: “Our test group consisted of five plasma televisions and seven LCD TVs; in our lab testing, we found that most of the sets were capable of producing superb pictures (as a result, their performance scores didn't differ by much), making design, features, and price more important. For various reasons, two sets--Pioneer's PDP-4280HD plasma and Toshiba's 42HL167 LCD--failed to make our Top 1040-and 42-Inch HDTVs chart (see page 114), but you can find reviews of them at find.pcworld.com/58463.”

_PC World’s_ top-rated plasma set was the Vizio VP42. The Panasonic TH-42PZ700U, my candidate, was rated tops for HDTV picture quality, but it was downgraded for its standard-definition picture, its “unintuitive on-screen menus,” its lack “of neat extra features for your money,” its “clunky” remote, and, of course, its high price.

QUESTION: So . . . do I stick with my original intention to buy the Panasonic TH-42PZ700U (because of quality and price), or do I now have enough second thoughts (obviously) to continue my search (now years and counting)?

NOTE: I’m stuck with the 42-inch screen, because that’s the largest that fits into our armoire. Yes, I’d like a larger screen, but that’s out of the question.

PC World, the most trusted advisor for plasmas

With all this hoopla over _Consumer Reports_ ratings, why is there no talk about the recent _PC World_ ratings? (I have a real question at the end.)

In a chart (see http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,126398/article.html), _PC World_ lists the top 10 HDTVs, mixing LCDs and plasmas. (I think the chart is on page 114 of the November issue; at least that’s the reference I came across.)

The two 42-inch sets I’ve been considering do not make the top 10 on the chart: Pioneer PDP-4280HD and Panasonic TH-42PZ700U (although the TH-PV700U does poorly at No. 8 despite having a “great” picture.)

PC World does weigh price as 25% of its ratings (unlike _Consumer Reports_, which, as I understand it, considers price only in awarding its “Best Buy” tags, not in its ratings).

Apparently _PC World_ did test the Panasonic TH-42PZ700U in another article, and it rated well down the list (see the article on page 110 in the November issue of PC World, “LCD vs. Plasma . . . ,” at http://preview.*******.com/2eg69q [I hope these links work for you. I reached these articles via the Berkeley Library’s research links using my library card.]

Here is an excerpt: “Our test group consisted of five plasma televisions and seven LCD TVs; in our lab testing, we found that most of the sets were capable of producing superb pictures (as a result, their performance scores didn't differ by much), making design, features, and price more important. For various reasons, two sets--Pioneer's PDP-4280HD plasma and Toshiba's 42HL167 LCD--failed to make our Top 1040-and 42-Inch HDTVs chart (see page 114), but you can find reviews of them at find.pcworld.com/58463.”

_PC World’s_ top-rated plasma set was the Vizio VP42. The Panasonic TH-42PZ700U, my candidate, was rated tops for HDTV picture quality, but it was downgraded for its standard-definition picture, its “unintuitive on-screen menus,” its lack “of neat extra features for your money,” its “clunky” remote, and, of course, its high price.

QUESTION: So . . . do I stick with my original intention to buy the Panasonic TH-42PZ700U (because of quality and price), or do I now have enough second thoughts (obviously) to continue my search (now years and counting)?

NOTE: I’m stuck with the 42-inch screen, because that’s the largest that fits into our armoire. Yes, I’d like a larger screen, but that’s out of the question.

I was looking for info. on how PC World tests the screens. They didn't provide any meaningful "lab tests" that I could see in their reviewing process. My guess is all their reviews are subjective. That doesn't really do much for me.

In conclusion the great running back LaDalian Tomlinson is endorsing Vizio plasmas. This is not right, if he were endorsing Panasonic, Pioneer or Samsung, I wouldn't mind but it really ticks me off that he's pushing Vizio. Endorsing Vizio is like making Ryan Leaf the starting quarterback of the Chargers again with LaDalian in the backfield.

Hans, you crack me up.

BTW - since I'm a San Diegan, I have to correct you about "LaDanian" and how to spell his name. Please never speak of Ryan Leaf again.

I was looking for info. on how PC World tests the screens. They didn't provide any meaningful "lab tests" that I could see in their reviewing process. My guess is all their reviews are subjective. That doesn't really do much for me.


this about sums it up:

It may well be that calibrating the sets using professional equipment connected to their RS232 or USB ports would have improved their output quality substantially. But who wants to pay $400 to calibrate a $1000 set? Most people won't do it--and that's why we adjusted the sets for our tests using only their on-screen controls.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,137429/article.html



The rationale behind their ratings hierarchy seems to be "there isn't much difference between the tested models in terms of picture quality, so our ratings are primarily based upon ease-of-use, feature sets, menus, connectivity, etc."

or more precisely:

There were no standout winners, but Samsung's sets--one an LCD and one a plasma--captured the top two spots on our chart. They didn't give us the best pictures, but their sensible design, variety of options, and reasonable prices lifted them above the rest.

With all this hoopla over _Consumer Reports_ ratings, why is there no talk about the recent _PC World_ ratings? (I have a real question at the end.)
.............................

QUESTION: So . . . do I stick with my original intention to buy the Panasonic TH-42PZ700U (because of quality and price), or do I now have enough second thoughts (obviously) to continue my search (now years and counting)?



In a nutshell, PC World is held in even less esteem than Consumer Reports when it comes to the evaluation of tvs. They are rarely used as a point of reference on these forums. Unless they remarked upon some specifically negative aspect of the 700u which struck home with you as being something that you think you would be very concerned or bothered about, I wouldn't pay much heed to their ratings.

If you decide to opt for the 700u, just be sure you need a 1080p set. Most (not all, but most) people tend to agree that unless you are going to use it for a computer monitor or you plan on sitting within 5-6ft of the screen, there is no need to have a 1080p panel. You are better off saving some money and going with a 720p panel.

Is that the revisionist history lesson?

Panasonic cordless phones have been terrible until 4 years ago. They couldn't figure out the RF portion of the phone and they worked poorly.

Having been an audiophile since the early 80's I can tell you that Panasonics/Technics. was never considered anywhere near world-class. Go to any audio forum and tell them that and see what they say....

Hm, Panasonic made the only decent 4-line cordless consumer phones for ages, and it still does.

Also, go to the receiver forum and search for Panasonic SA XR57. It is a cheap digital receiver, which while devoid of some features, is superbly musical. Musical enough, that after giving it a try on a whim (it is cheap:-), I sold my Pass Aleph (granted, I was looking to replace the Pass Aleph because it is a Class A box and it ran too hot for where I needed to place it, but I had tried several other boxes, from much better regarded names, and was unhappy with all. The Panasonic SA XR57 was the only one which approximated the sound of the Pass Aleph well enough for me (hooked to a pair of Gallo Solos + a Sunfire sub.) Well, a little 2-channel AudioDigit amp was a little smoother, but I went for the multi-channel convenience on the Panny, which now happily drives both my stereo room and my 7.1 TV room. BTW, the Panny is noticeably better sounding in my setup than the Denon it replaced for multi-channel.)

So, Panasonic makes some good stuff (including my 7-year old plasma, which still looks good:-)

That is not to defend CR, with the methodology of which I have some issues, as I've earlier pointed out.

To all debating the quality of the panny 50 or 42pz700u vs the fpt5084 sammy, I must chime in Im a former owner of the 42 and 50 panny I kept both through there break in period before returning them and now own the sammy, and from my experience The Sammy has blacker Blacks in contrast the pannys are more of a dark black/gray and far as whites go the Sammys are a brighter white, the pannys was a cloudy white not as clean. Inaddition to those key differences the sammy boast better colors qualitys, and an additional hdmi port and 1080P through VGA and component for the xboxers among us, now all the sets do a good job of displaying very minimal noise, and handling motion especially compared to the 52xbr2 i used to own.

So there we have it from a former owner of both Pannys and present owner of the Sammy.

My two cents.

To all debating the quality of the panny 50 or 42pz700u vs the fpt5084 sammy, I must chime in. I'm a former owner of the 42 and 50 panny. I kept both through there break in period before returning them and now own the sammy; and from my experience The Sammy has blacker Blacks in contrast the Pannys are more of a dark black/gray; and far as whites go the Sammys are a brighter white, the Pannys was a cloudy white not as clean.

[From my research]... Now contrast the above opinion with an excerpt from this August 2007 Panasonic plasma review - remove spaces > http: //plasma tv buying guide .com/plasmatvreviews/panasonic-th50ph10uk-review.html --

Images are exceptionally sharp and crisp for HDTV input signals. Color reproduction was superb but the words most often used to describe the unit's on-screen image versus the other flat screen TV's were, "great depth, rich and clear, vibrant." I know the description of the picture sounds a bit like a good cabernet, but those are our thoughts. There are a few standout reasons that the Panasonic Plasmas triumph. One is the gray scaling in dark scenes. Two is the black levels. And three is color reproduction.

1. Gray Scaling: Image detailing in dark scenes is a sticking point with most plasma manufacturers due to the pressure of always attempting to increase black levels and contrast to keep up with the competition. With many manufacturers, much feature matter is lost as what was intended to be shadow detail turns to an over saturated black - thus losing all detail. Panasonic plasmas have been overcoming this problem for years and are only getting better.

2. Black Levels: The Panasonic TH-50PH10UK continues to show the dominant deep black levels that have won Panasonic so many accolades in this area. As discussed with gray scaling, it's really a combination of excellent black levels and great dark matter detailing within gray scales that create a superb picture for the human eye. Though we don’t entirely buy into the Panasonic (nor any other manufacturer) contrast ratio listing of 10,000:1 (we measured the 10U at around 855:1), I do believe they have the best black level technology.

3. Panasonic's plasma color reproduction strives for realism - not overjuiced overipe colors. This Panasonic professional model plasma is very well calibrated right out of the box in movie or standard mode to settings that will not fatigue the eye.

Dark Scene detailing in FIGHT CLUB was superb.

When viewing progressive 720P or 1080I HD signals I'm always pleased with the reproduction and picture depth. 3-dimensional images on a good plasma will surpass LCD every time.

While several manufacturers claim to have almost caught Panasonic in black level production and contrast, the Panasonic models continue to display the deepest blacks and smoothest gray scaling that I have seen. While viewing the anamorphic widescreen 2.40:1 DVD release of Fight Club—a dark film by anyone's description—I was able to discern sufficient definition in the dark detailing of fight scenes, clothing, and distanced objects. The proof that the Panasonic plasma could handle gray scales with no false contouring (banding effects in dark gradations) was also evidenced in the DVD release of Martin Scorcese's RAGING BULL. As De Niro pummeled opponents relentlessly, I was amazed that even with this black and white DVD release there were zero banding/ false contouring effects evident. It is not even a consideration any more with Panasonic's plasma TV offerings. This accomplishment is very difficult for most plasma TVs. The picture from the Panasonic plasma always deliver the most realistic colors, in part because these units do not get offensively warm with oversaturated reds as do so many other models. Gray scaling is drastically improved on this new model—with the most even dark level variations witnessed and monitored by my Sencore color analyzer.

Note: In this review we summarize the 50 offerings in Panasonic’s professional HDTV lineup, including the new 10th generation TH-50PH10UK. The plasma panels used in Panasonic’s professional line of displays are typically cycled into the consumer line of TVs after they have run for a while in the pro-lineup. For example, the current-generation 50-inch consumer model, the TH-50PX75U uses the same panel 9th generation panel as the discontinued 50-inch TH-50PH9U pro display. While picture quality has been consistent throughout the latest 4 or 5 versions of the Panasonic professional plasma, we explain the small changes that were made with each generation.

(END)

For our Panny Fanboys, here is a quote from the forum's top calibrator (UMR) on Panasonic plasma

"I find the current Panasonic plasmas totally unacceptable. I did not even bother with this type of measurement because it failed in so many other ways."

For our Panny Fanboys, here is a quote from the forum's top calibrator (UMR) on Panasonic plasma

"I find the current Panasonic plasmas totally unacceptable. I did not even bother with this type of measurement because it failed in so many other ways."

UMR discredited himself as not knowing what he is doing. If Consumer Reports rates Panasonic as one of the best then it shows UMR is wrong.

It's like a mechanic saying I won't work on Corvettes because I can't make them faster.

Panasonic is better than most plasmas. Samsung is worse than most plasmas. That's the truth.

For our Panny Fanboys, here is a quote from the forum's top calibrator (UMR) on Panasonic plasma

"I find the current Panasonic plasmas totally unacceptable. I did not even bother with this type of measurement because it failed in so many other ways."

Criteria? "...totally unacceptable" as to WHAT? - You gave two sentences from some other statement; where is the complete quotation?

If he really feels that a Panasonic plasma is "totally" unacceptable, I guess he favors only "one" brand as "acceptable" - ?? :confused:

Criteria? "...totally unacceptable" as to WHAT? - You gave two sentences from some other statement; where is the complete quotation?

If he really feels that a Panasonic plasma is "totally" unacceptable, I guess he favors only "one" brand as "acceptable" - ?? :confused:

That was the complete quote

oh yea...all hail hans!!!!.....

classics are being written before our very eyes in this thread.


deadcrowsflywest says: A++ would read post 217 again

http://www.songfight.org/artists/hans_gruber_ultimate_villain.jpg

LOL..I almost said Yippiekaiyay...

Consumer Reports Scores

Panasonic TH-50PZ700U - 81 :D
Panasonic TH-50PX75U -- 78 :D
Vizio JV50P ---------------- 72
Samsung 5084 ------------ 68 :(

That was the complete quote

Please provide a link to this "complete quote".

The two sentences are in reference to "something" else ["...this type of measurement"] , so what is he referring to?

Please provide a link to this "complete quote".

The two sentences are in reference to "something" else ["...this type of measurement"] , so what is he referring to?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885904&page=10

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885904&page=10

So let me get this straight. An AVS member ("UMR"), is referenced as a known calibrator, and posted a brief reponse (comparing black levels of the new Pioneer Kuro vs a Panasonic PX75U), and said the following (on the link you provided)...

"I find the Panasonic's to output too little light and have poor color performance. The Pioneer plasmas are exceptionally good."

Gee, I wonder if he would have felt this way BEFORE Pioneer released the Kuro this year! :cool: And from this brief opinion you agree with his other (short) statement (posted right before this one), that the Panasonic plasmas are "totally unacceptable".

And this because of why? UMR - "too little light and poor color performance." That's it? And you agree with his overall "unacceptable" evaluation concerning Panasonic plasmas?

Sounds like the UMR member only likes a Pioneer, with such a "downgrade" to Panasonic in just two sentences.

Well, I'm not impressed with UMR's opinion [so limited!], or convinced (of course). I'm sure a Pioneer owner (or two) could post a few negative impressions (or gripes) about the Kuro's, but it obviously wouldn't mean that these new sets are "unacceptable".

Rusty, you were hoping to find something that I took out of context. When you couldn't do that you tried to discredit one of the most respected calibrators in America. Nice job

Rusty, you were hoping to find something that I took out of context. When you couldn't do that you tried to discredit one of the most respected calibrators in America. Nice job

No, just the opposite. YOU gave a 2-sentence quotation, without reference to anything(!), and then after providing the link, anyone here can see that the UMR member is now biased to the Pioneer, and gives a flippantly biased 2-word opinion against the Panasonic - "TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE" etc.

If UMR is such a top calibrator, IMO he would never say that one of the best plasma brands [Panasonic] is..."totally unacceptable".

Now, go you "get" this? And do you still agree with UMR's 2-word evaluation of Panasonic plasmas? (2 words in 2 sentences - incredible)

I'm not going to waste my time searching UMR's past comments here on AVS thread, but I would imagine that BEFORE the Kuro's were released, he probably didn't find the Panny's "totally unacceptable"...unless perhaps he's a Pioneer "fanboy" - ? :D

Guess what - I find UMR's opinion of Panny plasma totally unacceptable!

Rusty, you were hoping to find something that I took out of context. When you couldn't do that you tried to discredit one of the most respected calibrators in America. Nice job

...your brain on drugs....:D

Rusty, you were hoping to find something that I took out of context. When you couldn't do that you tried to discredit one of the most respected calibrators in America. Nice job

UMR discredited himself. He isn't respected. I never hear of him. It is some guy who has an opinion that is in the minority. CR is a trusted magazine that does not accept any advertising money from the products they review. There is no conflict of interest. CR got it right using experts and normal people.

Then again, maybe Samsung sucks so bad that UMR can make money making it suck less. Panasonic is so good that it does not need the services of UMR and he knows it. If you're going to be a mechanic, you might as well specalize in the brand that breaks down the most.

Guess what - I find UMR's opinion of Panny plasma totally unacceptable!

That's because you are a Panny fanboy. You follow Consumer Reports, I'll follow the experts.

That's because you are a Panny fanboy. You follow Consumer Reports, I'll follow the experts.

LOL! Consumer Reports hires experts.

The people who post here must work for Samsung or have made a bad purchase and now feel the need to defend it. Samsung is low quality and breaks more often.

Cmon doogie howser, have you honestly ever seen the 5084 in action? It is absolutely breathtaking. I bet you are stuck with a Sylvania, or a Westinghouse TV, and now you are jealous of everyone who actually has a 5084, so you feel the need to come on here and bad mouth the set, just to try make yourself feel good for buying that junk

That's because you are a Panny fanboy. You follow Consumer Reports, I'll follow the experts.

I don't follow any one source. Also, if you would take the time to read the earlier posts I gave on this "C.R." thread, you will see that I've given some critical (and negative) comments concerning some aspects of CR reviews and their criteria.

As for this "UMR" member/calibrator... IMO no "expert" would ever refer to one of the best plasma brands [also #1 in sales, but that's irrelevant] as "totally unacceptable" in a brief evaluation. This comment should be reserved for the worst of brands [Maxent anyone? etc].

As for calibrators, I've not seen other AVS members reference UMR's calibrations; rather the names I constantly see (in praise of their opinions) are D-Nice, Ken Ross, Cleveland Plasma, Randy Walters [who constantly posts valuable insights to Panasonic especially], etc.

As for sources, I subscribe to all of the major mags, and also read online reviews. Funny, none of these other professionals/calibrators have ever given an evaluation of Panny plasma as "totally unacceptable". ;)

Cmon doogie howser, have you honestly ever seen the 5084 in action? It is absolutely breathtaking. I bet you are stuck with a Sylvania, or a Westinghouse TV, and now you are jealous of everyone who actually has a 5084, so you feel the need to come on here and bad mouth the set, just to try make yourself feel good for buying that junk

Samsung has flaws. It judders and flickers. The picture is horrible! Sure, they made it bright but everything else about the Samsung is bad.

I currently own a 50" Panasonic plasma. I've owned three different plasma televisions and one LCD television. Samsung is just horrible! I never would buy a Sylvania or Westinghouse for the same reason I would not buy a Samsung. They are all in the lower class.

Whoever thinks Samsung is acceptable must be blind or be buying their first plamsa HDTV and is judging based on analog SD versus digital HD. To those who own multiple plasmas and have lived with HDTV the Samsung is unacceptable because of the flickering and judder.