In all my posting - i have recently had an change of heart so to speak.

Why should I . . . Lee Stewart . . . care if a CEM wants to subsidize their product, so I can afford it. It's not my money. I don't own stock in the company. I am not employed by the company.

CEM's . . subsidize away!

That recent BOGO sale that some of the BD studios had. I hope that the HD DVD PG tries to do the same thing the week Spiderman 3 comes out (this Tuesday . . . is it too late already?) or one of the other BB's that BD has. There are a few movies I would like to pick up at 50% off. A simple 5 mile drive and I am at my local Best Buy.

Come on HD DVD PG "fight back" and do a BOGO sale! I am a cheap SOB and don't want to pay top dollar for my purchases!

It is time to take a step back . . to see the forest through the trees so to speak.

If an issue comes up that can help me the consumer - then I am all for it. If Toshiba has lost billions on HD DVD - well I profited by their determination to win this format war.

Why should I care that 2 million people here in the USA each saved about $200 when they bought their PS3? Good for them. It put the PS3 in their budget . Without the $200 many may not have bought it because it would be out of their budget.

I do care about the future of HD DVD because I want it to have a future. HDM is such an uncertainty at this moment in time.

But I do enjoy reading posts and posting. Just going to have to look a little harder at the subject matter.

In all my posting - i have recently had an change of heart so to speak.

Why should I . . . Lee Stewart . . . care if a CEM wants to subsidize their product, so I can afford it. It's not my money. I don't own stock in the company. I am not employed by the company.

CEM's . . subsidize away!

That recent BOGO sale that some of the BD studios had. I hope that the HD DVD PG tries to do the same thing the week Spiderman 3 comes out (this Tuesday . . . is it too late already?) or one of the other BB's that BD has. There are a few movies I would like to pick up at 50% off. A simple 5 mile drive and I am at my local Best Buy.

Come on HD DVD PG "fight back" and do a BOGO sale! I am a cheap SOB and don't want to pay top dollar for my purchases!

It is time to take a step back . . to see the forest through the trees so to speak.

If an issue comes up that can help me the consumer - then I am all for it. If Toshiba has lost billions on HD DVD - well I profited by their determination to win this format war.

Why should I care that 2 million people here in the USA each saved about $200 when they bought their PS3? Good for them. It put the PS3 in their budget . Without the $200 many may not have bought it because it would be out of their budget.

I do care about the future of HD DVD because I want it to have a future. HDM is such an uncertainty at this moment in time.

But I do enjoy reading posts and posting. Just going to have to look a little harder at the subject matter.


If HD DVD had BD's marketing and PR it would have been over a while ago. Hopefully HD DVD has learned from both BD's successes and HD DVD's own mistakes. We'll see in this 4Q.

When people really care about companies financials you know they're beyond hopelessness. This is called the 'Apple coloured Nintendo fan syndrome'.

I'm glad you realise that competition = subsidies = good for consumers. I got a Blu-ray player + awesome game player cheap? Awesome. I get cheap movies? Cool. A company loses money? Why do I care :)

Hell yeah, when businesses lose, I win. IE just the other day, I got the

HD DVD addon
+ remote
+ five free MIR
+ KONG
+ Heroes box set
+ Matrix ultimate
+ Smallville season 6

For $180.... thats ridicuously cheap, cheaper than the costs of the movies. They might as well advertise the player as free with movie purchase. I can sell the HD DVD add on +remote + 5 movie rebate for $130

I bought an HD-DVD stand alone new for "Too low to mention on this site". THat means

I got
KONG
Heroes box set
Matrix ultimate
Smallville season 6
+ HD-A2
+ 5 Free Movies via MIR
for around $210

Now I just have to decide wether or not I want to open the HD-A2. I am going to wait a couple weeks to see how november pans out, before I open the Player. $210 is worth it just for the movies I got... but still ....I dont want to open it just to find out that they were clearing stock before closing shop.

Notice that this I am almost format neutral post is post 1,666.... Yeah... not a good sign

I think all but the most rabid partisans will ultimately come to some place close to Lee Stewarts is starting to go with his current thinking. I went there some time ago. I prefer HD DVD no doubt. I have 3 HD DVD stand alone players in my house and a 360 drive on a PC. The last two HD DVD players were pretty cheap. 1 was at $199 when Conn's made their pricing error some months back. The one before that was a D2 for $249 at Costco.

Recently I bought a PS3 using a Sony credit card offer for $150 off. I love HDM and Home Theater but I am buying what and when it makes sense for me. I have become a bargain hunter now. I want cheap and I want good.

If the BDA wants to BOGO their brains out I will load up at $10 a pop. If I can find HD DVD cheap even better because I have players in my den, bedroom, and home office.

The HTPC in my den will get an LG combo drive when the price is right.. I want to be able to use whatever media I own in any room I got another HTPC that will get the 360 drive at that point. The HTPC are mostly to tinker with anyway. None of that stuff is quite prime time. HD DVD has been more than ready for mass adoption since firmware 2.0 no matter what the blue partisans say. It is crunch time and it is a good time for HDM fans.

Viva la format war... without a scrappy Toshiba and HD DVD, HDM would have been on Sony's terms. Now I have the luxury of hedging my bet, and let the format war bring me the benefits. Mass adoption starts with Walmart next week. Bring on affordability!

Here is how my dollars were spent on players since late February.
XA2 at early adopter premium $799
D2 at Costco $249
A2 at Conn's $199
PS3 60 Sonystyle (CC deal) $349

From here on out.. Toshiba --Sony make me deal I can't refuse.. Give me BOGOs, bargain only please. As for partisanship for the most part forget about. I don't mind mixing it up here on the pros and cons. But in the end if the price is right I don't care what color the player or the case is as long as it is cheap.

When it come to red and blue I will just quote Jackson Browne

"You take Sally, and I'll take Sue, there ain't no difference between the two"


Sure, I have a sentimental favorite but it won't stop me from scooping up bargains on either format.

I see where people have been using $40 off Circuit City coupons buying A2s and getting them for $160. You go guys. The formwat war is off to the races. Mass adoption here we come.

Lee,

I think you really ought to give format neutral a try. I have both formats and eventhough I prefer bluray, due to higher bandwidth and higher capacity I certainly found much to enjoy out of HD-DVD and Im certain that you will feel the same way.

When you support both, you stop caring about the studios and focus on one thing:

The MOVIES.

Give it a try. You wont be disappointed

If HD DVD had BD's marketing and PR it would have been over a while ago. Hopefully HD DVD has learned from both BD's successes and HD DVD's own mistakes. We'll see in this 4Q.

If HD-DVD SPENT as much as BD's marketing and PR, I doubt you would be seeing A2's for less than $200. One of the reasons BD players cost so much is because of the huge advertising budget they have. No....got to keep prices down.

:(

Just buy into both formats, enjoy them both and enjoy the perks the war brings to the consumer. Maybe now everyone finally realizes the war is good.

At this point I am in the process of planning holiday purchases for my second player of both formats. For a long time, I was very squeamish about sinking money into media with the expectation that one of the two formats would eventually become a virtual Betamax, but now that both sides are cranking out heavily subsidized product and price errors abound at the retail level, like the CC BOGO oops and the BB 360 drive plus boxed sets funfest, why not go ahead and buy the content? It is not as if the industry is going to roll out some dramatically new format that looks significantly better in the next couple years.

Lee,

I think you really ought to give format neutral a try. I have both formats and eventhough I prefer bluray, due to higher bandwidth and higher capacity I certainly found much to enjoy out of HD-DVD and Im certain that you will feel the same way.

When you support both, you stop caring about the studios and focus on one thing:

The MOVIES.

Give it a try. You wont be disappointed

Great advice. When I was reading Lee's post I almost thought that's where it was headed... almost.

Either way, very nice post Lee.

Lee,

I think you really ought to give format neutral a try. I have both formats and eventhough I prefer bluray, due to higher bandwidth and higher capacity I certainly found much to enjoy out of HD-DVD and Im certain that you will feel the same way.

When you support both, you stop caring about the studios and focus on one thing:

The MOVIES.

Give it a try. You wont be disappointed

I cannot go format neutral because of the state of flux for BD SAL players. And I am one of those people who would never buy a game console as a movie player.

With that said, when BD fully compliant players get to a pricing point below $300 then I would seriously consider becoming format neutral.

:(

Just buy into both formats, enjoy them both and enjoy the perks the war brings to the consumer. Maybe now everyone finally realizes the war is good.
I wouldn't say the war is entirely good. So far, it's been great at getting prices down from the stratosphere, and that's certainly a great boon to consumers, but all you have to do is look at the divisiveness on this and other boards to see the amount of animosity this war has generated.

This used to be a sane place to talk about movies, but the long months have caused some serious rifts in this and most other movie-loving communities.

The only bad thing about the war in the sense of companies spending more and/or subsidizing, is that at some point those business numbers come back to roost and the companies have to own up to their shareholders and defend their decision to deliberately not make money. Hasn't happened yet, but the risk still remains, and many of the players involved start deciding that HDM is a losing proposition (retailers in particular), that would have a catastrophic effect on the market. This may be what we're seeing from Weinstein, for instance.

I have both formats and it's not as great as all that. I still buy HD DVD and rent some BDs.

But at the end of the day, buying into BD is still a waste of money, IMO, as January will show that HD DVD will be the format that makes it to mass market.

Anyone considering adding a BD player of any kind should definitely not do so until after CES (January), in my view. You'll see...

And yes - competition is GREAT.

Why anyone gets emotional attached with this "war" is beyond me. They are corporations, they do not care about us, they just want are money.

I've seen so many people make this battle out to be a good vs evil sort of match...it's just not the case.

Neither format is right or wrong. Just pick one (or both) and enjoy. Every individual should choose what works for them. If player price is a big concern, look at HD DVD. If one has multiple interest (gaming, movies, etc), check out Blu-ray (PS3). I love the Simpsons, so Blu-ray is my choice...but I don't have a hatred toward HD DVD.

It's human nature to want to "fight" and people love to go overboard. That being said, the sooner people realize this isn't a big deal, the sooner they could enjoy their choice.

Advantage number 12 for being neutral:
pickup any movie anytime on ebay for the best price. You win, always.

The only people who are against neutrality are gamers, they feel BD/HD must win because of the whole xbox vs. ps thing. I've always felt that if you're worried about losing the value of your investment in this early market, that you shouldn't be in this market in the first place.

There is always the chance that both sides will see the folly of their ways and dump all of us for something newer.

Lee, first I agree consumers should support a format that is consumer friendly. BD+ and Region Coding in my opinion are not.

For me the biggest problem with the BDA is their overall FUD campaign. Things like:

1. BD includes HD video + audio, whereas HD DVD includes on 720p video and standard audio!
2. 1080i is 1/2 the resolution of 1080p and HD DVD is 1080i. So if you have a 1080p TV, you need BD.
3. mpeg -2 is more efficient than VC-1 (later back tracked somewhat)
4. LPCM is better than lossless (now some back tracking)
5. BD offers same interactivity as HD DVD (in fact many believe this to be true even today!)
6. Only reason Paramount switched was because of $150M in cash...

Now, points 1 and 2 seem crazy, but they were part of official BDA sponsored product training at Best Buy and I am assuming other retailers as well!

The primary FUD I see from the HD DVD side was attributed to Amir, who was quoted as saying someone from some replication company told him that mass producing BD 50 disks was science fiction. But that is only something that people on this forum will care about....the BD FUD campaign is purely a mass mis information campaign, with which they hoped to win the format war.

Why, they even laughed off the importance of lower priced players before finally jumping on board.

As a consumer you have to worry about long term impacts as well. For instance, United Airlines discounted their competing routes v. Independence Air from Dulles (that is where I fly from), However, after Independence Air went out of business the fares are jacked up over 5X what they were. I can fly cheaper to India than to Pittsburg!

So, as a consumer I care about what the BDA stands for and what I see does not strike me as a consumer friendly operation.

If HD-DVD SPENT as much as BD's marketing and PR, I doubt you would be seeing A2's for less than $200. One of the reasons BD players cost so much is because of the huge advertising budget they have. No....got to keep prices down.

I don't want to take this off track, but I don't believe the marketing budget has anything significant to do with BR player cost.

BR manufacturers want to make a profit, hence they are not able to sell BR players with a $200 price tag. It's a safe bet, Toshiba is losing money on selling $200 players (don't forget, retailer mark up). This is why you don't see other companies eager to produce HD DVD players...because they know they couldn't make a profit and compete with Toshiba's low priced players.

Toshiba has much more to gain from the success of HD DVD, so they are willing to take a lost on the players.

But at the end of the day, buying into BD is still a waste of money, IMO, as January will show that HD DVD will be the format that makes it to mass market.

Anyone considering adding a BD player of any kind should definitely not do so until after CES (January), in my view. You'll see...

One could say the same thing about HD DVD being a waste of money. It's funny how you never miss a chance to slam Blu-ray. This is the first I've ever seen of you admitting you own it as well though.

When people really care about companies financials you know they're beyond hopelessness.

Bingo, (barring owning stock) its the first sign you're dealing with a fanatic.

Finally... a thread in this forum that isn't loaded with "juvenile" posts.


I agree with most people here... format neutral is the way to go. I dont buy into who's better in specs. I care about about enjoying HDM and getting the most out of my money.

-I initially had a 360 add on last year because it was the cheapest way to get into HDM. However, I bought that drive with CC's 40 off 200 = so $160 :D

-Then I bought an A2 this year when Amazon was giving away 2 movies along with it (when they had B2G1 free sale).

-Then I also jumped into the blu wagon when sonystyle's website had the $150off promotion with their credit card.

See, I bought all the hardware above when the price was better than the normal price. It allows me to spend more money in the discs.... especially with CC's glitch, Fry's 9.99 and 13.50 movies.

I will be getting a 1080p projector next year so a new HD-DVD player is in the works for me...one that can do 1080p/24 and HBR. But I will only buy it if the price is good. I wish I could get the Onkyo player to match my Onkyo 705 receiver (which I got for $549 at CC). But I doubt the price will be below $500 so I'll probably get an A35 or an XA2 (firmware pending).

All said and done, subsidized promotions are great for the consumer.... if you're an extreme fanboi to one side, then just stop your bickering and go format neutral. It's better to share deals with each other rather than argue on who has the better specs or who's winning the neilsen numbers.

I have both formats and it's not as great as all that. I still buy HD DVD and rent some BDs.

But at the end of the day, buying into BD is still a waste of money, IMO, as January will show that HD DVD will be the format that makes it to mass market.

Anyone considering adding a BD player of any kind should definitely not do so until after CES (January), in my view. You'll see...

And yes - competition is GREAT.

i hope you are right.

i feel the same way as lee after the bogo bd deal. imo the hd dvd side is basically charging me 2x for movies. they need to throw existing customers a bone.

i have been thinking of getting a ps3 and just sell it later (tired of waiting for a decent standalone player).

Lee, I all ways enjoy a good argument (maybe not all ways) but your post is right on the money. If Sony/Toshiba want to throw money at us to buy their product. So be it. I think you would enjoy the Blu side just as much as you enjoy the red. You could still buy HD DVD when ever available and Blu Ray when it is exclusive.

I have both. Yes I lean way on the Blu side because of the storage issue. If TL 51gb came out tomorrow, it would make me rethink my position in a big way. I think a lot of hd dvd owners haven't given Blu ray a good shake since the fiasco release of the fifth element and the samsung bdp 1000. It has gotten a lot better.

Nice logical post.

Lee, first I agree consumers should support a format that is consumer friendly. BD+ and Region Coding in my opinion are not.



Hmmm, thats how you end up with Transformers HDDVD on the internet. Producers, directors and producers should have the ability to protect their content if they want to.

And region coding is optional. Whats wrong with that?

Well if you took the time to read through my post history:D you would see that I was very adamant about taking posters to task each time they said that Toshiba was losing money on Gen2 players. I would demand a link which was impossible to find other than the iSupply tearsown on the A1 - a Gen1 player.

In essence - I was arguing for the sake of arguing. It was fun, it got my blood moviing - it was confrontation - which I enjoy. I mean how easy is it to call someone out on a statement when you know for a fact (because you have spent hours and hours looking for the proof that didn't exist) that they will not be able to show any proof to backup their statement.

Definition: Forum Fighter:o

But now. . . I do not care. It is no longer my concern as to how companies run their business's. Sure if I see, as a businessman, an "off the wall" event, then I will have an opinion on it and will voice it.

But no more challenges on companies making or losing money. I don't do business with any company involved in the war nor do i hold any stock in said companies.

I want cheap HD DVD players and affordable movies. so that my choosen format will survive and reach a point where it will be supported even if it is considered a niche (as a former BIG supporter of LD - I speak from experience) because there are enough people with players to justify continuing the support of the format. IMO - when titles average 100,000 - that should do it.

But to bottom line it . . I am a movie lover first and foremost. If HD DVD does not survive then of course I will go out and buy a BD player (by that time they should be all profile compliant and be under at least $400:D) heck - I still buy DVD's every month - never pay more than $6.00 because if I watch it twice (my normal viewing habits with a 400+ DVD collection) it paid for itself.

The one thing I absolutely refuse to do - ever - is to see a movie in a crummy theater. One time I did. It's been over 40 years since I made that promise to myself - and I have never broken it.

Advantage number 12 for being neutral:
pickup any movie anytime on ebay for the best price. You win, always.

The only people who are against neutrality are gamers, they feel BD/HD must win because of the whole xbox vs. ps thing. I've always felt that if you're worried about losing the value of your investment in this early market, that you shouldn't be in this market in the first place.

There is always the chance that both sides will see the folly of their ways and dump all of us for something newer.

If j6p stands for the bulk of the DVD sales today, why would he put out more money than a video buff on a dual player or 2 HDM players just for the sake of being format neutral?

Sounds much more sane with one single, cheap format with a region-free, finalized spec. That way j6p can get into HDM faster and studios get back money faster on their investments.

i hope you are right.

i feel the same way as lee after the bogo bd deal. imo the hd dvd side is basically charging me 2x for movies. they need to throw existing customers a bone.

i have been thinking of getting a ps3 and just sell it later (tired of waiting for a decent standalone player).

The new PS3 is the way to go, it uses less power and costs less. Once you start using the PS3, you wil find that your desire for a standalone is probably unwarranted.

Lee, first I agree consumers should support a format that is consumer friendly. BD+ and Region Coding in my opinion are not.

For me the biggest problem with the BDA is their overall FUD campaign. Things like:

1. BD includes HD video + audio, whereas HD DVD includes on 720p video and standard audio!
2. 1080i is 1/2 the resolution of 1080p and HD DVD is 1080i. So if you have a 1080p TV, you need BD.
3. mpeg -2 is more efficient than VC-1 (later back tracked somewhat)
4. LPCM is better than lossless (now some back tracking)
5. BD offers same interactivity as HD DVD (in fact many believe this to be true even today!)
6. Only reason Paramount switched was because of $150M in cash...

Now, points 1 and 2 seem crazy, but they were part of official BDA sponsored product training at Best Buy and I am assuming other retailers as well!

The primary FUD I see from the HD DVD side was attributed to Amir, who was quoted as saying someone from some replication company told him that mass producing BD 50 disks was science fiction. But that is only something that people on this forum will care about....the BD FUD campaign is purely a mass mis information campaign, with which they hoped to win the format war.

Why, they even laughed off the importance of lower priced players before finally jumping on board.

As a consumer you have to worry about long term impacts as well. For instance, United Airlines discounted their competing routes v. Independence Air from Dulles (that is where I fly from), However, after Independence Air went out of business the fares are jacked up over 5X what they were. I can fly cheaper to India than to Pittsburg!

So, as a consumer I care about what the BDA stands for and what I see does not strike me as a consumer friendly operation.

And you say that the BDA is about "mass mis information".

Lee, first I agree consumers should support a format that is consumer friendly. BD+ and Region Coding in my opinion are not.

For me the biggest problem with the BDA is their overall FUD campaign. Things like:

1. BD includes HD video + audio, whereas HD DVD includes on 720p video and standard audio!
2. 1080i is 1/2 the resolution of 1080p and HD DVD is 1080i. So if you have a 1080p TV, you need BD.
3. mpeg -2 is more efficient than VC-1 (later back tracked somewhat)
4. LPCM is better than lossless (now some back tracking)
5. BD offers same interactivity as HD DVD (in fact many believe this to be true even today!)
6. Only reason Paramount switched was because of $150M in cash...

Now, points 1 and 2 seem crazy, but they were part of official BDA sponsored product training at Best Buy and I am assuming other retailers as well!

The primary FUD I see from the HD DVD side was attributed to Amir, who was quoted as saying someone from some replication company told him that mass producing BD 50 disks was science fiction. But that is only something that people on this forum will care about....the BD FUD campaign is purely a mass mis information campaign, with which they hoped to win the format war.

Why, they even laughed off the importance of lower priced players before finally jumping on board.

As a consumer you have to worry about long term impacts as well. For instance, United Airlines discounted their competing routes v. Independence Air from Dulles (that is where I fly from), However, after Independence Air went out of business the fares are jacked up over 5X what they were. I can fly cheaper to India than to Pittsburg!

So, as a consumer I care about what the BDA stands for and what I see does not strike me as a consumer friendly operation.


agree 100%.

but if they sell the discs at 1/2 price of hd dvd my political alignment for hd dvd is overridden by my cheap SOB genes. :D

agree 100%.

but if they sell the discs at 1/2 price of hd dvd my political alignment for hd dvd is overridden by my cheap SOB genes. :D

Are we related to each other?:D

The best argument for NOT going format neutral at this time is the high cost. I see no reason to spend an additional $500 for a Blu-ray player to supplement a perfectly decent $200 HD DVD player. There's lots to buy or rent on HD DVD (given the very early state of the product) and the same $200 player delivers nicely upgraded DVD signals.

It would be the same argument if starting with the HD XA2 at around $600. You get even better upconverting (the best, arguably, available) and the same fine list of HD DVD titles. Why spend another $500 to add Blu-ray?

The same argument could be made starting with a $500 Blu-ray player ... why add another set of wires, remotes and shelf space to get a $200 HD DVD player?

If there was a dual format player at about the $500 mark, then the "neutral" argument makes sense. But once you have one or the other I see no "imperative" to go neutral.

I'd be inclined if I started with Blu-ray to cautiously watch what really happens with Profile 1.1. Will affordable players come to market soon? Will affordable dual format players come to market soon? Will software using 1.1 arrive soon in at least the same abundance as HD DVD or Blu-Ray is now? Maybe I'd be thinking of upgrading to dual format then.

But if I wasn't in the game yet, or already had a toe in the water with HD DVD, I'd definitely go with lower risk $200 player to start and enjoy hidef for the next several months until the Blu-ray Profile 1.1 / dual format player options become an affordable reality.

So, no: I see no reason at all to embrace format neutrality until at least next summer based on what we know now.

Personally....I could care less abut either sides tactics, what they stans for, DRM, unfairness, disregard for the consumer, etc.....Just give me the 1080P video and lossless audio.

I have both formats and it's not as great as all that. I still buy HD DVD and rent some BDs.

But at the end of the day, buying into BD is still a waste of money, IMO, as January will show that HD DVD will be the format that makes it to mass market.

Anyone considering adding a BD player of any kind should definitely not do so until after CES (January), in my view. You'll see...

And yes - competition is GREAT.

One could say the same thing about HD DVD being a waste of money. It's funny how you never miss a chance to slam Blu-ray. This is the first I've ever seen of you admitting you own it as well though.

I agree with you hdhabit.

It's hard to take what someone says seriously when their opinion is laced with bitterness.

Recently, a friend asked me if they don't go for a dual-format player, which format I think they should adopt. I simply responded, "the quality between both formats are negligible - so take a look at which movie studios have aligned themselves with each format and then make your decision." In the end, he chose HD DVD because of the Universal titles.

I would never force my unsubstantiated opinions onto someone to sway them from adopting a format.

so I guess we won't be hearing stupid arguments regarding BD manufacturing costs from you anymore?

And I am one of those people who would never buy a game console as a movie player.

I went the format-neutral route a long time ago. Personally, I do not see why I have to be an advocate for any large corporation(s). I also want the best I can get, and today it's done by being dual-format.

Regarding the PS3 - whatever any HD DVD fan can say, Sony has excellent engineers in their PS3 unit. The PS3 is quick, reliable, and has never given me any problems (unlike my HD-A1 and XA2). Considering that it's a G1 unit too, I have been impressed by the quality software engineering by Sony's PS3 engineers.

I don't think about the PS3 as a game console :) Worst case, if I have to sell it, I can get a decent price for it or give it to kids in my extended family. I did buy ONE racing game for it and it was really fun playing it too...

I agree with you hdhabit.

It's hard to take what someone says seriously when their opinion is laced with bitterness.

Recently, a friend asked me if they don't go for a dual-format player, which format I think they should adopt. I simply responded, "the quality between both formats are negligible - so take a look at which movie studios have aligned themselves with each format and then make your decision." In the end, he chose HD DVD because of the Universal titles.

I would never force my unsubstantiated opinions onto someone to sway them from adopting a format.
I agree.
I provide them tidbits about the HD DVD internet connection and PiP but tell them that if they really want to jump in now while there is still 2 formats and they want to pick one, they should review the movie catalog from both formats and make a decision.
I'm not going to be the guy they come to later and hear their complaints who told them to buy a specific format because of my personal preference if they purchased the losing format. I think the consumer needs to make their own informative decision without too much bias with the information provided without propaganda using car salesmanship tactics.
After all, it's really about watching/hearing the movie in Hi Definition and the web access and PiP is a benefit that some will want while others do not care but I always do tell them about it.

I don't believe we should be advocates of corporations. Some people spend far more effort and emotion defending a corporation than the corporation gives back. The corporations don't care about us, they try to force DRM on us. Corporations are not our friends!

Unless you decide to sell pirated copy of an HD DVD with a hard drive, the current distribution mechanism will not work. It will probably take a couple of weeks to download the title if not more. Are there HD DVD burners?

In any case, you'll need a player and after it takes you 2 weeks to download a copy the next time you're more likely to just buy the real thing for instant gratification....since you already own the player!

Both sides do not have the same philosophy about DRM and that is a critical difference....

Once again, I know this is the same old argument, but DRM and region coding is not even important to 99.99% of consumers.

The majority of Blu Ray discs don't even have regional coding. It is not required. It is available for certain releases. Plus the regions are quite a bit larger than they were on DVD.

Plazman, if you could download a high def copy of "transformers" off the net and then just use a computer as a DVR, why would you even want to burn them to a disc? You can just play the movie direct to an HDTV.

Why anyone gets emotional attached with this "war" is beyond me. They are corporations, they do not care about us, they just want are money.

I've seen so many people make this battle out to be a good vs evil sort of match...it's just not the case.

Neither format is right or wrong. Just pick one (or both) and enjoy. Every individual should choose what works for them. If player price is a big concern, look at HD DVD. If one has multiple interest (gaming, movies, etc), check out Blu-ray (PS3). I love the Simpsons, so Blu-ray is my choice...but I don't have a hatred toward HD DVD.

It's human nature to want to "fight" and people love to go overboard. That being said, the sooner people realize this isn't a big deal, the sooner they could enjoy their choice.

Nice post...the voice of REASON..you know that if you posted this message at Blu-ray.com you would be banned.

Hmmm, thats how you end up with Transformers HDDVD on the internet. Producers, directors and producers should have the ability to protect their content if they want to.

And region coding is optional. Whats wrong with that?

You are misguided, movie content belongs to the studios and they can do whatever they want.

You are misguided, movie content belongs to the studios and they can do whatever they want.

You're indirectly supporting tqlla's argument.

Your statement is precisely why BD+ exists.

You're indirectly supporting tqlla's argument.

Your statement is precisely why BD+ exists.

It's a true statement of fact irrespective of who or what position it supports. Moreover, I believe all studiod should have at least started neutral and let consumers decide the outcome. But the studios didn't do that either.

It's a true statement of fact irrespective of who or what position it supports. Moreover, I believe all studiod should have at least started neutral and let consumers decide the outcome. But the studios didn't do that either.

maybe they didnt want to go neutral because HDDVD doesnt really support regional coding(IE Disney) and the AACS isnt as strong as BD+(IE fox)

Why go neutral... if HDDVD wont let you protect your content. Their(HDDVD) Biggest movie ever was hacked in a week.

I don't care about BD+, Region Coding, or have fear about Internet connectivity. All I want is every movie available and feature complete players. Once the smoke clears in the new year, if it's clear that Disney is staying Blu, and BD-Live players are available for less than $300, I'll be neutral and never look back.

maybe they didnt want to go neutral because HDDVD doesnt really support regional coding(IE Disney) and the AACS isnt as strong as BD+(IE fox)

Why go neutral... if HDDVD wont let you protect your content. Their(HDDVD) Biggest movie ever was hacked in a week.

Isn't the thread about individual consumers enjoying the content and not worrying about studios and CE manufacturers? I'd like all studios to be neutral. That's the only way this could play out to its natural end.

In all my posting - i have recently had an change of heart so to speak.

Why should I . . . Lee Stewart . . . care if a CEM wants to subsidize their product, so I can afford it. It's not my money. I don't own stock in the company. I am not employed by the company.

CEM's . . subsidize away!

That recent BOGO sale that some of the BD studios had. I hope that the HD DVD PG tries to do the same thing the week Spiderman 3 comes out (this Tuesday . . . is it too late already?) or one of the other BB's that BD has. There are a few movies I would like to pick up at 50% off. A simple 5 mile drive and I am at my local Best Buy.

Come on HD DVD PG "fight back" and do a BOGO sale! I am a cheap SOB and don't want to pay top dollar for my purchases!

It is time to take a step back . . to see the forest through the trees so to speak.

If an issue comes up that can help me the consumer - then I am all for it. If Toshiba has lost billions on HD DVD - well I profited by their determination to win this format war.

Why should I care that 2 million people here in the USA each saved about $200 when they bought their PS3? Good for them. It put the PS3 in their budget . Without the $200 many may not have bought it because it would be out of their budget.

I do care about the future of HD DVD because I want it to have a future. HDM is such an uncertainty at this moment in time.

But I do enjoy reading posts and posting. Just going to have to look a little harder at the subject matter.

I think it's a hot one how much people make of sales anyway. Were dealing with a small pool of titles on either side, titles which have no doubt taken on significance they would never have done on DVD. DVD sales are so common. and prices so low, that there are truly times when I can't be bothered to even sift through a list of 500 $6.95 titles. Yet content starved HDM buyers convince themselves on a regular basis that a 1/2 price on a handful of $30-$40 disks is giving it away and lunge at titles they'd in all likelihood pass up on DVD, even if HDM didn't exist,

I think it's a hot one how much people make of sales anyway. Were dealing with a small pool of titles on either side, titles which have no doubt taken on significance they would never have done on DVD. DVD sales are so common. and prices so low, that there are truly times when I can't be bothered to even sift through a list of 500 $6.95 titles. Yet content starved HDM buyers convince themselves on a regular basis that a 1/2 price on a handful of $30-$40 disks is giving it away and lunge at titles they'd in all likelihood pass up on DVD, even if HDM didn't exist,

We are consumers! We LOVE bargins! We buy stuff we normally would not buy BECAUSE it is a bargin!

And from the results of the BOGO sale - it seems many got the 2 POTC movies - good for them - now they can buy the 3rd and have a complete set.

Great fun when you own/have available, the entire series of movies that you enjoy.

maybe they didnt want to go neutral because HDDVD doesnt really support regional coding(IE Disney) and the AACS isnt as strong as BD+(IE fox)

Why go neutral... if HDDVD wont let you protect your content. Their(HDDVD) Biggest movie ever was hacked in a week.

The surviving HDM format will be hacked irrespective of how elaborate the copy protection scheme. Surely you aren't so naive to believe otherwise? Or are you?

The surviving HDM format will be hacked irrespective of how elaborate the copy protection scheme. Surely you aren't so naive to believe otherwise? Or are you?

Maybe it will be hacked. But when is the key? 1 year..... 2 years... 3 years? And can it be done for every movie consistantly, and quickly.

The point is... BD+ has not been completely hacked and BD+ is stronger than AACS alone.

In all my posting - i have recently had an change of heart so to speak.

Why should I . . . Lee Stewart . . . care if a CEM wants to subsidize their product, so I can afford it. It's not my money. I don't own stock in the company. I am not employed by the company.

CEM's . . subsidize away!
.
.

.
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I do care about the future of HD DVD because I want it to have a future. HDM is such an uncertainty at this moment in time.


Lee,

I'm still perplexed as to why you would want HD-DVD to win. If you'd prefer to use a technology with less disk space and a lower bitrate, then why not just stick with DVD?

As for my thoughts on the matter, the format war hasn't been all bad. The consumer has definately benefited from it. Also, people who attribute the slow uptake of High Def Media solely to the format war are making a mistake IMO, as it's the lack of proliferation of HD Ready TV's in peoples homes which is by far the biggest set of brakes on the whole HD uptake. (This will of course change over time, which is why I'm very optimistic about the future).

But at the end of the day, buying into BD is still a waste of money, IMO, as January will show that HD DVD will be the format that makes it to mass market.
rdjam - The Comical Ali of the HD world. That's why we love him..... ;-)

Lee,

I'm still perplexed as to why you would want HD-DVD to win. If you'd prefer to use a technology with less disk space and a lower bitrate, then why not just stick with DVD?

As for my thoughts on the matter, the format war hasn't been all bad. The consumer has definately benefited from it. Also, people who attribute the slow uptake of High Def Media solely to the format war are making a mistake IMO, as it's the lack of proliferation of HD Ready TV's in peoples homes which is by far the biggest set of brakes on the whole HD uptake. (This will of course change over time, which is why I'm very optimistic about the future).

Why do I want HD DVD to win? Simple - it offers the best chance of unsurping DVD as the regining video formats:

1. It offers HD PQ and AQ
2. It is almost as cheap to manufacturer as DVD
3. It is manufacturered on existing DVD lines with a tooling change
4. It offers a bridge between the two formats in the form of the DL and TL Twin discs and the Combo.

Why do I want HD DVD to win? Simple - it offers the best chance of unsurping DVD as the regining video formats:

1. It offers HD PQ and AQ
2. It is almost as cheap to manufacturer as DVD
3. It is manufacturered on existing DVD lines with a tooling change
4. It offers a bridge between the two formats in the form of the DL and TL Twin discs and the Combo.

Ok, but 2, and 3 dont effect you at all. Its like your studio subsidizing argument. Why should I can if BD have to be manufactured on the moon using alien technology, if they get it to me cheap I dont care. That was the point of this thread right? About not caring how they get the product to you?

Why do I want HD DVD to win? Simple - it offers the best chance of unsurping DVD as the regining video formats:

1. It offers HD PQ and AQ
2. It is almost as cheap to manufacturer as DVD
3. It is manufacturered on existing DVD lines with a tooling change
4. It offers a bridge between the two formats in the form of the DL and TL Twin discs and the Combo.

lee,

imo it also has the ability to compete/coexist with downloads and other future technologies that are not ROM based. that is, all the hd dvd players have ethernet ports and the potential for local storage. the software can be enhanced after the sale. it is only ROM technology at the core but everything else about it allows near infinite expansion.

imo it was well designed to transition people to hdm without fuss and also has a forward thinking architecture that allows the platform to be expand to add new capabilities to be able to compete with other emerging technologies for a long time.

imo planning for local storage and ethernet from the start completely offsets the storage/bitrate issue from a system architecture view. we have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far in the software.

toshiba sacrificed some capacity for manufacture ability and backward compatibility with dvd. imo it will be worth it to facilitate a speedy transition from dvd. i think they have proven that the capacity isn't needed to meet the needs of pq/aq for mass adoption (or even the majority of very picky enthusiasts).

i am very excited that hd dvd is right on the edge of taking hdm mainstream.

Lee, I all ways enjoy a good argument (maybe not all ways) but your post is right on the money. If Sony/Toshiba want to throw money at us to buy their product. So be it. I think you would enjoy the Blu side just as much as you enjoy the red. You could still buy HD DVD when ever available and Blu Ray when it is exclusive.

I have both. Yes I lean way on the Blu side because of the storage issue. If TL 51gb came out tomorrow, it would make me rethink my position in a big way. I think a lot of hd dvd owners haven't given Blu ray a good shake since the fiasco release of the fifth element and the samsung bdp 1000. It has gotten a lot better.

Nice logical post.

I got into HD DVD because, at the start of the war it was cheaper, better, and a completed spec. "Better" wasn't a spec thing but rather an implementation thing. Seeing the Blu-Ray end-caps convinced me that the picture quality was junk (the watchmaker looked like crap!), and Fifth Element seemed to prove it. Even if the quality was equal, there was no way I was going to spend the extra money on a Sony format (already spent too much money on Sony branded TVs -- but I'm over that ;) ).

Right now, there is only one reason not to go format neutral from Red to Blu. That is Blu player profiles and price. When those improve, I will go neutral. However, I would prefer a single player, as I only have analog inputs on my pre-pro, and am too cheap for the $2000 HDMI 1.1 upgrade that will be obsolete in a year or two.

On the next Bogo Blu sale, I'll probably stock up (even without a player). Same goes for an HDDVD Bogo. The war so far is a good thing. Only when it prevents mass adoption is it bad. We aren't even into the prices necessary for mass adoption folks! I greatly prefer HDDVD, but right now I just want a choice of good movies.

Both formats will be around for a while. There is too much momentum on the both sides, no clear winner, and still a lot of untapped market in terms of j6p. Only when j6p makes their choice will the war be determined. Blu still has the short-term advantage because of PS3 install base. They need lower standalone player prices or they risk losing that lead.

Ok, but 2, and 3 dont effect you at all. Its like your studio subsidizing argument. Why should I can if BD have to be manufactured on the moon using alien technology, if they get it to me cheap I dont care. That was the point of this thread right? About not caring how they get the product to you?

Oh but I do care about the cost to manufacturer. The lower the cost - the more companies will put product out on it. This is from a business sense. Especially now with low volumes of disc sales.

If a company can press say 5000 discs and either break even or make a small profit, then as the market continues to grow - so does the chance that people will buy that product.

I want TONS of titles in HD. Not just blockbusters.

LD, in 20 years, in the USA reached 18,000 titles. DVD in 10 years has reached over 77,000 titles.

If HD DVD had BD's marketing and PR it would have been over a while ago. Hopefully HD DVD has learned from both BD's successes and HD DVD's own mistakes. We'll see in this 4Q.

Q4 is pretty much all blu...the titles have been announced and it doesn't look good for HD DVD...

Content has been a big issue for HD DVD and this will come back to bite them big them in the next two months as the blu ray tidal wave of releases will destroy any numbers put up by Shrek and Bourne which are are the only two big exclusive bullets for HD DVD this year...the Harry Potter numbers will absolutely favor BD and will probably even better than 300 since they aren't 'R' rated films...

Q4 is pretty much all blu...the titles have been announced and it doesn't look good for HD DVD...

Content has been a big issue for HD DVD and this will come back to bite them big them in the next two months as the blu ray tidal wave of releases will destroy any numbers put up by Shrek and Bourne which are are the only two big exclusive bullets for HD DVD this year...the Harry Potter numbers will absolutely favor BD and will probably even better than 300 since they aren't 'R' rated films...


So we should ignore:

1. $198 priced A2's available now

2. The Star Trek TOS Box set - no DVD only release

3. The Phaser Remote deal

4. The speculation that the HD DVD PG has seen what a BOGO sale can do and do one of their own - or more than 1.

So we should ignore:

1. $198 priced A2's available now

2. The Star Trek TOS Box set - no DVD only release

3. The Phaser Remote deal

4. The speculation that the HD DVD PG has seen what a BOGO sale can do and do one of their own - or more than 1.

Yeh, the Star Trek set costs more than the player. Its not even rated in the top 20 for HD DVD. Other than a few rabid star trek fans I very highly doubt this will sell more than a couple thousand copies.

BD has been running sales all year, while HD DVD haven't had any that I could remember. Maybe if the HDDVD marketing group decided to actually use some of their resouces on sales rather than paying off studios they would have better marketshare by now.

Oh but I do care about the cost to manufacturer. The lower the cost - the more companies will put product out on it. This is from a business sense. Especially now with low volumes of disc sales.

If a company can press say 5000 discs and either break even or make a small profit, then as the market continues to grow - so does the chance that people will buy that product.

I want TONS of titles in HD. Not just blockbusters.

LD, in 20 years, in the USA reached 18,000 titles. DVD in 10 years has reached over 77,000 titles.

a couple of comments on this. to use the combo/twin to phase out dvd you also need low manufacturing costs. part of that means not having to replace all the manufacturing equipment.

also, to phase out dvd it is a huge advantage to be able to use the same equipment to do dvd and hd dvd during the transition.

the ps3 launch proved to me that even if you put a free hdm player into peoples homes it doesn't mean they will buy hdm media. (the ps3 bd capability is free if you wanted it for gaming anyway).

the low manufacturing costs and combo/twin allow studios to just phase out dvd. if studios are convinced and pull the trigger then the transition will be very fast and easy for both consumers and the studios.

both sides have proven that few consumers will just chose to pay more for hdm and voluntarily drop dvd. they have to give away hdm software and players to hit sales targets.

imo a phase out of dvd has the best chance for mass adoption. (and therefore getting us a lot of hdm content). all it requires is confidence from the studios to pull the trigger.

Yeh, the Star Trek set costs more than the player. Its not even rated in the top 20 for HD DVD. Other than a few rabid star trek fans I very highly doubt this will sell more than a couple thousand copies.

BD has been running sales all year, while HD DVD haven't had any that I could remember. Maybe if the HDDVD marketing group decided to actually use some of their resouces on sales rather than paying off studios they would have better marketshare by now.

You are just now seeing the tip of the iceberg so to speak. First low priced players - then low priced movies. And rightly so - the low priced players should come first;)

Do not underestimate the Trekkies. Only have to wait a few weeks for the results.

Why do I want HD DVD to win? Simple - it offers the best chance of unsurping DVD as the regining video formats:

1. It offers HD PQ and AQ
2. It is almost as cheap to manufacturer as DVD
3. It is manufacturered on existing DVD lines with a tooling change
4. It offers a bridge between the two formats in the form of the DL and TL Twin discs and the Combo.

1. But less than BD

2&3. The price is so close that I'm more than happy to pay for blu-ray. If you put a few dollars before the better technology, then again I have to ask why you don't just stick to DVD?

4. Did you boycott DVD because it didn't bridge between itself and VHS?

Furthermore, blu-ray is already closer to usurping dvd than hd-dvd is, by approximately 2:1.

In all honesty, I just don't buy any of this. Blu-ray is clearly the better technology. There are really only 3 reasons why any A/V enthusiast would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray, and they are :-

1) Fear / Loathing of Sony
2) They bought into HD-DVD before BD came out, and pride won't allow them admit they got suckered.
3) They are an employee of Microsoft or Toshiba

1. But less than BD

2&3. The price is so close that I'm more than happy to pay for blu-ray. If you put a few dollars before the better technology, then again I have to ask why you don't just stick to DVD?

4. Did you boycott DVD because it didn't bridge between itself and VHS?

Furthermore, blu-ray is already closer to usurping dvd than hd-dvd is, by approximately 2:1.

In all honesty, I just don't buy any of this. Blu-ray is clearly the better technology. There are really only 3 reasons why any A/V enthusiast would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray, and they are :-

1) Fear / Loathing of Sony
2) They bought into HD-DVD before BD came out, and pride won't allow them admit they got suckered.
3) They are an employee of Microsoft or Toshiba

The "logic" behind some of these posts is getting weirder and weirder.:rolleyes:

1. But less than BD

Is this your opinion or do you have some proof to back this up?

2&3. The price is so close that I'm more than happy to pay for blu-ray. If you put a few dollars before the better technology, then again I have to ask why you don't just stick to DVD?

Really? Well Richard of R&B Films CLEARLY stated that BD25's were 30% higher to acquire than HD 15's.

And the cost to build a BD pressing line is running in the millions - and it can only do BD, while HD DVD uses existing DVD pressing technology and only requires a tooling change to press HD DVD's.

And THE dominate format still is DVD.

4. Did you boycott DVD because it didn't bridge between itself and VHS?

Good try at changing the subject - though you clearly failed. We are talking about HDM and DVD. I can understand your concern. BD has NO bridge formats to allow people to not only play a purchased movie on their HD DVD player - but also on the 135 million existing DVD players. I have 1 HD DVD player and 3 more DVD players in my home . . . how many do you have?

Furthermore, blu-ray is already closer to usurping dvd than hd-dvd is, by approximately 2:1.

You BD fans make a HUGE deal out of this 2 to 1 issue . . . which hasn't changed in 10 months and only represents a difference of 1 million discs. But you keep hanging onto to that blankey. We understand.;)

In all honesty, I just don't buy any of this. Blu-ray is clearly the better technology. There are really only 3 reasons why any A/V enthusiast would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray, and they are :-

1) Fear / Loathing of Sony
2) They bought into HD-DVD before BD came out, and pride won't allow them admit they got suckered.
3) They are an employee of Microsoft or Toshiba

He he he . . very funny. Now how about I give YOU 3 reasons:

1. Lower entry level price for a player - 89% to 100% lower than BD

2. They want to enjoy IME and IF features that make HDM totally different than DVD.

3. They don't want a Game Console as a movie player. Especially one with a wacky remote.

There's a reason for the BD BOGO, to keep HD-DVD from winning even one week, so the BDA can claim they completely own 2007. What possible motivation would the HD-DVD camp have to BOGO Spidy3? loosing less?

It's fun reading all these arguments for X or Y format. I think the HD DVD arguments are more logical, but in the end they won't mean a twit. Here are some things I feel pretty confident about though.

There MUST be a loser (maybe 2)! While both sides are trying hard to win, the moviemakers will NOT make discs in more than one format when large scale distribution of MANY titles becomes the norm. Retailers won't like it either! We benefit now because of the format war, but if it goes on for too long it will be a disastrous stalemate.

The winner must win by at least a 5:1 ratio on all fronts - enough for the loser to realize it's over. Once the imbalance becomes significant, there will be an avalanche!

Dave

It's fun reading all these arguments for X or Y format. I think the HD DVD arguments are more logical, but in the end they won't mean a twit. Here are some things I feel pretty confident about though.

There MUST be a loser (maybe 2)! While both sides are trying hard to win, the moviemakers will NOT make discs in more than one format when large scale distribution of MANY titles becomes the norm. Retailers won't like it either! We benefit now because of the format war, but if it goes on for too long it will be a disastrous stalemate.

The winner must win by at least a 5:1 ratio on all fronts - enough for the loser to realize it's over. Once the imbalance becomes significant, there will be an avalanche!

Dave

It was fun reading your post;)

Do you have any linkable proof that the public is enamoured with higher PQ or AQ? I can't seem to find any. As a matter of fact all my links show the opposite - the public could care less about better PQ and AQ.

the public could care less about better PQ and AQ.

Here's the vicious cycle for me. I've had no trouble showing people the difference.

Pop in the DVD version, play a scene. Tell them what to look for.

Pop in the HDM disc (Blu-ray in my case). Play the same scene. Don't say anything. They can see the difference. They can hear the difference. They're convinced.

Then they ask what to buy. And that's where I get less enthusiastic. That's where I have to tell them the great story of "The War."

Naturally they then decide they'll wait. The indifference takes hold, and they sit on the sidelines.

Now I KNOW there's not millions of people waiting in the wings, but adoption at this point is critical. Every new owner counts for a lot in getting this technology into the minds of the mainstream. The second you hear a statement like, "Oh I heard about that. Isn't it like ultra dvd quality or something." then you're on your way.

In the same way that people like to talk about sports in HD, or watching fish swim around on some nature channel, they get this excited attitude bringing it up.

What it will take to get us from here to that point will surely be the discussion of many threads to come. :-)

The winner must win by at least a 5:1 ratio on all fronts - enough for the loser to realize it's over. Once the imbalance becomes significant, there will be an avalanche!

Dave

You mean like DVD vs Superbit DVD?
Universal, Paramount, Warner, Disney and Fox vs Sony

You mean like DVD vs Superbit DVD?
Universal, Paramount, Warner, Disney and Fox vs Sony

I'm confused on that one. It's no different than New Line's "Platinum Series" in my mind.

There are really only 3 reasons why any A/V enthusiast would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray, and they are :-

1) Fear / Loathing of Sony
2) They bought into HD-DVD before BD came out, and pride won't allow them admit they got suckered.
3) They are an employee of Microsoft or Toshiba


The availability of complete spec players makes BD a non-starter for me. How can you ignore that reason?

Here's the vicious cycle for me. I've had no trouble showing people the difference.

Pop in the DVD version, play a scene. Tell them what to look for.

Pop in the HDM disc (Blu-ray in my case). Play the same scene. Don't say anything. They can see the difference. They can hear the difference. They're convinced.

Then they ask what to buy. And that's where I get less enthusiastic. That's where I have to tell them the great story of "The War."

Naturally they then decide they'll wait. The indifference takes hold, and they sit on the sidelines.

Now I KNOW there's not millions of people waiting in the wings, but adoption at this point is critical. Every new owner counts for a lot in getting this technology into the minds of the mainstream. The second you hear a statement like, "Oh I heard about that. Isn't it like ultra dvd quality or something." then you're on your way.

In the same way that people like to talk about sports in HD, or watching fish swim around on some nature channel, they get this excited attitude bringing it up.

What it will take to get us from here to that point will surely be the discussion of many threads to come. :-)

Good post - very thoughtful.

So how many of us here at AVS initilally thought HDM would be a slam dunk . . only to find out that HDM is literally fighting to stay alive in an HD rich marketplace?

Despite low prices and incentives, I suspect that HDM players will not be flying off the shelves this Christmas.

The regular guy and/or woman does not want to contend with the format war nor will they be talked into getting a high priced dual-format player.

Most of them are content watching digital cable blown up to fit their widescreen TV - that is, if they have a widescreen TV.

Is this your opinion or do you have some proof to back this up?
Proof? Nah... Just the laws of physics Lee. Click here (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1110/transformers.html) and see those laws of physics in action in the Transformers Audio review...... (ahh the pwnage :p )

And the cost to build a BD pressing line is running in the millions - and it can only do BD, while HD DVD uses existing DVD pressing technology and only requires a tooling change to press HD DVD's.
Nice spin. But the truth of the matter is that at costs for both formats continue to drop, the already small price difference is getting smaller all the time.

And THE dominate format still is DVD.
No argument with that.

Good try at changing the subject - though you clearly failed. We are talking about HDM and DVD. I can understand your concern. BD has NO bridge formats to allow people to not only play a purchased movie on their HD DVD player - but also on the 135 million existing DVD players. I have 1 HD DVD player and 3 more DVD players in my home . . . how many do you have?
What a bizarre paragraph!? Changing the subject? You brought up bridging between formats. All that matters to 99% of people is that you can play DVD's on your blu-ray player. Otherwise this is a virtual irrelevance, and when I demonstrated how irrelevant it was, you came back with... well... I'm sure it made sense to you....

... anyway, what matters is that you can still play DVDs on your Blu-ray player.

You BD fans make a HUGE deal out of this 2 to 1 issue . . . which hasn't changed in 10 months and only represents a difference of 1 million discs. But you keep hanging onto to that blankey. We understand.;)
You've got me there. I mean, fancy harping on about an irrelevance such as SELLING DOUBLE what your rival is selling when we what really matters is how the discs are "tooled!".

He he he . . very funny. Now how about I give YOU 3 reasons:

1. Lower entry level price for a player - 89% to 100% lower than BD
If there is such ahuge difference in price, then why aren't we seeing HD-DVD players massively outsell Blu-ray? I guess the public has already learned that Blu-Ray is the better technology and is more than happy to pay the extra for it. And I'm afraid the PS3 blows a hole in any attempts by the HD-DVD brigade to imply that they're better value for money.

2. They want to enjoy IME and IF features that make HDM totally different than DVD.
It's widely accepted that BD-J has the better potential.

3. They don't want a Game Console as a movie player. Especially one with a wacky remote.
Actually most of us DO want exactly that. Lee, I just hope the rest of the HD-DUD brigade keep their heads in the same cloud that yours is in. The PS has played a huge part in the obliteration that Blu-ray has dealt HD-DVD in 2007, and with your mentality, long may it continue!

As I said before, Blu-ray has a virtually unassailable lead already, thanks in the main to better Studio support and the PS3. The only chance HD-DVD has now is for Microsoft to put $300-$500 million on the table infront of Warner (they'll cost alot more than Paramount did).

Proof? Nah... Just the laws of physics Lee. Click here (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1110/transformers.html) and see those laws of physics in action in the Transformers Audio review...... (ahh the pwnage :p )


Nice spin. But the truth of the matter is that at costs for both formats continue to drop, the already small price difference is getting smaller all the time.


No argument with that.


What a bizarre paragraph!? Changing the subject? You brought up bridging between formats. All that matters to 99% of people is that you can play DVD's on your blu-ray player. Otherwise this is a virtual irrelevance, and when I demonstrated how irrelevant it was, you came back with... well... I'm sure it made sense to you....

... anyway, what matters is that you can still play DVDs on your Blu-ray player.


You've got me there. I mean, fancy harping on about an irrelevance such as SELLING DOUBLE what your rival is selling when we what really matters is how the discs are "tooled!".

He he he . . very funny. Now how about I give YOU 3 reasons:


If there is such ahuge difference in price, then why aren't we seeing HD-DVD players massively outsell Blu-ray? I guess the public has already learned that Blu-Ray is the better technology and is more than happy to pay the extra for it. And I'm afraid the PS3 blows a hole in any attempts by the HD-DVD brigade to imply that they're better value for money.


It's widely accepted that BD-J has the better potential.


Actually most of us DO want exactly that. Lee, I just hope the rest of the HD-DUD brigade keep their heads in the same cloud that yours is in. The PS has played a huge part in the obliteration that Blu-ray has dealt HD-DVD in 2007, and with your mentality, long may it continue!

As I said before, Blu-ray has a virtually unassailable lead already, thanks in the main to better Studio support and the PS3. The only chance HD-DVD has now is for Microsoft to put $300-$500 million on the table infront of Warner (they'll cost alot more than Paramount did).


You win!:D

Posted by Lee
Do you have any linkable proof that the public is enamoured with higher PQ or AQ? I can't seem to find any. As a matter of fact all my links show the opposite - the public could care less about better PQ and AQ

People buy HD audio, HD mascara - and HD TVs. HD is the buzz word!

Dave

In all honesty, I just don't buy any of this. Blu-ray is clearly the better technology. There are really only 3 reasons why any A/V enthusiast would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray, and they are :-

1) Fear / Loathing of Sony
2) They bought into HD-DVD before BD came out, and pride won't allow them admit they got suckered.
3) They are an employee of Microsoft or Toshiba

I can see that you are clearly happy with your decision to purchase a Blu-ray player and I respect this.
Why can't you respect the decision other consumers have made to purchase the rival HD-DVD product? The 3 reasons you gave as to why A/V enthusiasts would support HD-DVD over Blu-ray are insulting to say the least.
I, and I suspect most HD-DVD consumers, bought this player because it represented the best VALUE. I did alot of research and read alot of AVS posts from members that have BOTH formats and the strong consensus is that there is basically no discernible difference in PQ and Audio quality between these competing formats.....except for PRICE! I look forward to the day when Blu-ray players are as reasonably priced. For me I have to have both formats...I'm a huge movie fan.

thank you