I own DVE and Avia disks I bought in 2004. Moving up from an HD CRT and DVD player to a 1080p plasma and BluRay player. I'll probably use the BR for both hi def and std disks.

Question: how would the PQ resulting from one of these compare to PQ from using one of the forthcoming BR cal. disks? I mean, would there be a big diff if I bought the BR version when it comes out and recalibrated then?

Those were meant for the CRT world (HUGE difference on how to set contrast and brightness), I know there is some info on how to use them on digital but you might as well, invest $25 on GetGray for your display and be done with it..

Those were meant for the CRT world (HUGE difference on how to set contrast and brightness), I know there is some info on how to use them on digital but you might as well, invest $25 on GetGray for your display and be done with it..

That is absolutely not true. Both Avia and DVE are perfectly appropriate for use with digital displays.

Anyone else willing to vote on this question?

There is nothing to be voted on. It is not an issue to be settled democratically, but on the factual merits. The patterns on both Avia and DVE are absolutely appropriate for use on digital displays. A test pattern is a test pattern, and some are more useful for certain things than others, however for basic settings, either disc suffices for any display. The instructions for each includes directions for digital displays as well as CRTs.

That being said, the HD playback chain is distinct, you will want to acquire a test disc to calibrate HD in addition to the SD discs you already have.

CW -

actually your not correct, if you follow the instructions on how to set these using these older disk, then its is incorrect..you will NOT see blooming in contrast with digital displays..you dont set it to the min, but MAX (before color shifting - show me where in AVIA it tells you that), but like I stated earlier - there is some info on "how to use them" for digital displays but in its state - no they are NOT useful until you find the way to use them correctly.

So you're saying I can use them if I find some directions other than what came with them?

OTOH, at least one or two reviews of my future HDTV, Pioneer 5010, say that the "movie" setting is pretty close to calibrated. Maybe I'll just choose that and be happy for now.

So you're saying I can use them if I find some directions other than what came with them?

OTOH, at least one or two reviews of my future HDTV, Pioneer 5010, say that the "movie" setting is pretty close to calibrated. Maybe I'll just choose that and be happy for now.

Yes and that is what I originally stated..
or use a THX Optimizer from a Pixar movie..

CW -

actually your not correct, if you follow the instructions on how to set these using these older disk, then its is incorrect..you will NOT see blooming in contrast with digital displays..you dont set it to the min, but MAX (before color shifting - show me where in AVIA it tells you that),

I don't wish to get into a debate about this, you are simply mistaken in your understanding, hence your advice. The narration in Avia explains explicitly, if very briefly at the end, how to use the same patterns on a digital dislay which behaves differently than a CRT. In addition, Guy Kuo's text explanations elsewhere, and which are contained in the FAQ at the top of this forum, do the same. In the audio narration, the disc expressly describes to observe colorshifting on LCD displays, and this is applicable to other digital displays (DLP, LCOS) as I have many times explained here on the forum.

but like I stated earlier - there is some info on "how to use them" for digital displays but in its state - no they are NOT useful until you find the way to use them correctly.

Again, if you listen to the narration completely, it explains this. Just because the narration is geared towards greater detail of explanation for CRT displays, since at the time that was the majority of the displays, does not mean that the test patterns are not useful for digital displays.

Additionally, the OP did not ask only about Avia, but also asked about DVE. And in the case of DVE, the same thing applies. The patterns are useful for any type of display, CRT or Digital. Again, the patterns may be useful in different ways, and some specific patterns may not be particularly useful with specific displays, but both Avia and DVE contain a relatively thorough compliment of patterns that facilitates perfectly adequate basic and even some more advanced calibration of any type of display.

So you're saying I can use them if I find some directions other than what came with them?

OTOH, at least one or two reviews of my future HDTV, Pioneer 5010, say that the "movie" setting is pretty close to calibrated. Maybe I'll just choose that and be happy for now.

The directions that come with each contain instructions on how to align digital displays. Apparently rich is not familiar with these instructions.


The narration on Avia describes observing colorshifting on LCDs using the moving white bars, which is the proper method to set white level using this disc on a digital display.

And also straight from the horse's mouth:
Periodically, I hear people struggle with setting contrast. In particular, people get hung up on looking for blooming, avoiding geometry distortion, or thinking that the AVIA disc is only for CRT displays. Here's the five minute summary of the problem of setting contrast (white level) for newbies. It's hard to get it all because there are so many permuations of displays and what to look for. Hence, the on disc instructions could only cover the one - most common case in detail. Of course, a lot of forum members have non CRT based displays or have ones that differ in behavior. In general, here are some goals.

If you have a glowing phosphor based display like a CRT or plasma, one task is to make sure you don't have contrast set so high that you are rapidly burning the phosphor. You other task is to set contrast such that response to the signal is "linear." In other words, you keep contrast low enough that neither damage to the display or to picture quality result.

If you have a lamp based display like an LCD or DLP, you don't have to worry about avoiding damage by having too high a contrast, but you still have to avoid huring image quality.

On older CRT's an unsafely high contrast setting would cause minor defocusing of the electron beam aka blooming. This definitely was a bad thing so we tried to teach people to look for and AVOID ever letting the display run that high. Newer CRT displays don't bloom as much even when contrast is run up high enough to accelerate wear. So, you don't always see blooming and that is a bit confusing if someone new to video adjustments gets caught up in looking for blooming when actually the second part of the advice is the most important - Keep the contrast as low as possible to prolong phosphor life. In some modern CRT RPTV's you won't see obvious blooming but that does NOT mean it is good to keep contrast cranked up all the way.

Geometry distortion due to power supply problems are less common now. I wouldn't really worry about that on today's CRT's. When it's present and due to things like scan velocity modulation, newbies often can't get rid of it even if contrast is turned down too low.

On lamp based displays, having contrast doesn't shorten display life but causes clipping of hilites or shifts in the color of white as one primary color or another runs out of dynamic range. Clipping of hilites means that things that are bright but not quite white become indisinguishable from white. Shifts in the color of white means the color of white changes. On DLP's that shift is often blue-green.

A pro calibrator knows to set contrast to get proper light output, keep within safe limits, and obtain good grayscale tracking. Teaching the consumer to do that is hard because....

1. The consumer usually has no means of objectively measuring video display light output. Only a few advanced enthusiasts go so far as buying a colorimetry system like the OpticOne. I could have said on the disc to adjust contrast until white measures something like 12 to 16 footlamberts on a direct view or front projection and around 8 to 10 FL for RPTV CRT. Those aren't targets written in stone. Some people intentinally target higher, but they still do so keeping an eye on what is safe for the equipment. Most Avia users don't have a means of measuring how bright is 12 FL. Avia PRO users, yes, but not AVIA users.

Without a metering system, the best I could say is that the target brightness of white on screen is very roughly how bright a 4 white LED Lightwave 2000 flashlight lights up a white sheet of paper at 28 inches. That is fraught with uncertaintly and isn't that standardizable. People don't have that flashlight and even if they did, the flashlights vary in light output unit to unit and the battery freshness affects things. No matter what I have thought of in common objects as a possible reference, lots of factors ensure that what you see end up with for light from that object won't match what I am getting.

2. The measured light output level needed to deliver the desired light intensity to the viewer varies with display system. A pro calibrator knows that RPTV's have a high gain screen and need a lower direct measured light output to attain the same visible light level as a direct view. They also know that front projection systems also have screen gain that affects how measured light intensity is seen by the viewer. All those additional situations would take much more teaching than is practical on a consumer disc. If we tried to teach it on disc, almost no one would understand. People get confused with just the simple basic instructions on the Avia disc - and that was about as simplistic as I could get it.


So this leaves us with the final portion of my advice for setting contrast - keep it as low as consistent with a good image in a fairly dimly lit room in the evening. If you have contrast high enough to compete with sunlight or bright room lights, you are probably too high. Many people are used to really high light levels from a TV. Indeed, my eyes hurt the last time I saw an RPTV at someone's home because the light output was too high. On a home theater display, the light output when set correctly and viewed with DARK ADAPTED eyes will just begin to feel too bright when the scene abruptly switches from an indoor shot to a bright outdoor shot. That's somewhere around white being about 12 to 18 FL when I measure it against my eyeball "too bright tolerance.

By keeping contrast lower, you are more likely to be in the physically safe and image preserving portion of the display's dynamic range. I wish there were a standard object or light out there that I could say "make white on your screen look as bright as object x." I haven't found anything readily available to consumers that has constant enough of a light output and close enough to D65 in color to recommend as a standard. As I mentioned above, even LED flashlights won't work. They change with battery condition. Fluorescent tubes won't do either because they vary in brightness with age. I once tried to describe the brightness of white in terms of candle flame brightness cast upon a sheet of paper. That wasn't too accurate and I doubt a single soul took it seriously.

So bottom line - Don't perseverate on looking for blooming or geometry distortions on the test patterns. Instead concentrate on keeping contrast down LOW. Not so low that viewing the picture in a darkened room still results in a dingy image, but as low as still consistent with a bright enough picture in a darkened room. That gives you the best you can do until you have a colorimeter or a pro can come by and get you set up truely right.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guy Kuo
Director - Imaging Science Foundation Research Lab
Video Test Design - Ovation Multimedia / Home of OpticONE Colorimeter, AVIA and Avia PRO

And the DVE manual contains instructions that again explicitly describe test pattern use on digital displays:
http://www.videoessentials.com/docs/DVE_Consumer_NTSC.pdf


Beyond that, I recommend AGAINST using THX Optimode patterns if you have access to Avia/DVE which are accurate test discs. THX Optimode patterns, because some are per-title based, may or may not be accurate patterns, and I only recommend using those patterns in temporary situations where access to known and accurate patterns does not exist.

As a non-expert, I find that Chris's explanation makes sense to me from a purely logical view. IE, a pattern is a pattern,whether it's color bars or something else. If you know how to interpret and adjust accordingly, and which ones to use for your type of display, you're OK.

I don't wish to get into a debate about this, you are simply mistaken in your understanding, hence your advice. The narration in Avia explains explicitly, if very briefly at the end, how to use the same patterns on a digital dislay which behaves differently than a CRT. In addition, Guy Kuo's text explanations elsewhere, and which are contained in the FAQ at the top of this forum, do the same. In the audio narration, the disc expressly describes to observe colorshifting on LCD displays, and this is applicable to other digital displays (DLP, LCOS) as I have many times explained here on the forum.



Again, if you listen to the narration completely, it explains this. Just because the narration is geared towards greater detail of explanation for CRT displays, since at the time that was the majority of the displays, does not mean that the test patterns are not useful for digital displays.

Additionally, the OP did not ask only about Avia, but also asked about DVE. And in the case of DVE, the same thing applies. The patterns are useful for any type of display, CRT or Digital. Again, the patterns may be useful in different ways, and some specific patterns may not be particularly useful with specific displays, but both Avia and DVE contain a relatively thorough compliment of patterns that facilitates perfectly adequate basic and even some more advanced calibration of any type of display.



Chris - any thoughts on the GetGray title that was mentioned? I haven't heard of it before.

GetGray's disc (there is a thread here you can read all about it) is very straightforward, and very useful. It is explicitly targeted towards digital displays, so it lacks many patterns which may be specifically useful for CRTs, so it isn't really appropriate for a CRT. Discs like Avia/DVE are more thorough in that respect since they have so many patterns. Getgray is simple and direct, and great if you are only calibrating digital displays, or as a supplement to Avia/DVE. Certainly I recommend it if you're calibrating digital displays, which is what he intended it for specifically.