I came across an interesting article on HiDefDigest.com this morning and it got me to think a little about the format war and how the availability of "always-on" 24/7 forums, datasheets, and spec sheets skew perception of reality for those most intensely involved. This quote sums the article up nicley:

"I'm not suggesting that viewers should relax their standards or accept substandard quality as "good enough" when it's really not, but the technical specs alone simply do not tell the whole story, and over-emphasizing them is a matter of misplaced priorities. We should judge these discs by the actual quality they deliver, not by misleading statistics like the bit rate or the specs listing on the packaging. Surely, that can't be too much to ask. "

Why is it that we spend countless hours arguing about bit-rates and not the actual quality of what we see on our own tv screens? How can anyone keep a straight face while arguing that an awesome DD+ soundtrack is just completely crap compared to a lossless TrueHD soundtrack when no one in their right mind can hear the difference on a conumser home theatre system? These are the arguments that fuel the format war fanboys and turn them into rabid beasts just waiting to chomp on any morsel of a spec they can lay their fingers on to back their argument. And speaking of the intense fanboys - unless one owns a significant financial stock in any of the formats, why has a plastic disc become a raison d'etre for these people? Shouldn't we judge our self worth on our own person? Being a fanboy on either side of the coin is no different than proclaiming your superiority based on the shoes you wear or the car you drive. How silly would we all sound comparing our shoes to a competing "format" - "Well, Bill, you can forget joining the marathon this weekend due to your low poly-carbonate inner sole - it just won't provide that extra nano-second you need to win the race".

It's a disc. It's plastic. It provides us entertainment, fun, and escape for two hours. But is it the meaning of life to get so heated up over?

OK, my diatribe is over. Here is the link to the article - it's a great read with an unbiased view:


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/Commentary:_Specs_vs._Reality/1096

Excellent post.

Why is it that we spend countless hours arguing about bit-rates and not the actual quality of what we see on our own tv screens? How can anyone keep a straight face while arguing that an awesome DD+ soundtrack is just completely crap compared to a lossless TrueHD soundtrack when no one in their right mind can hear the difference on a conumser home theatre system? These are the arguments that fuel the format war fanboys and turn them into rabid beasts just waiting to chomp on any morsel of a spec they can lay their fingers on to back their argument. And speaking of the intense fanboys - unless one owns a significant financial stock in any of the formats, why has a plastic disc become a raison d'etre for these people? Shouldn't we judge our self worth on our own person? Being a fanboy on either side of the coin is no different than proclaiming your superiority based on the shoes you wear or the car you drive. How silly would we all sound comparing our shoes to a competing "format" - "Well, Bill, you can forget joining the marathon this weekend due to your low poly-carbonate inner sole - it just won't provide that extra nano-second you need to win the race".

It's a disc. It's plastic. It provides us entertainment, fun, and escape for two hours. But is it the meaning of life to get so heated up over?

Some people like to imagine that they spent their money on the "best of the best". People posting about how HD-DVD is the same/best or via-versa is spitting in the face of that decision and by God how could they let that fly? It's a way of validating their decision.

Same reason why we see people fighting over everything. Music/movies/vehicles/politics/etc.

Agreed. It's certainly easily to become overwhelmed by stats instead of just trusting what your eyes see and ears hear.

Some people like to imagine that they spent their money on the "best of the best". People posting about how HD-DVD is the same/best or via-versa is spitting in the face of that decision and by God how could they let that fly? It's a way of validating their decision.

Same reason why we see people fighting over everything. Music/movies/vehicles/politics/etc.
That just shows how insecure people are, and how shallow, to make materialistic things ahead of their life. (personaly, I see it more (insecurity) with people that have money to blow)

And usually from people that live in expensive areas, examples are Boca, Palm Bay, West Palm Beach, Plantation Acres, Miami Beach, etc...

Just kidding.:p
(well just kidding on the PB part)

If that's the case...Why are we all posting here??:confused:

I came across an interesting article on HiDefDigest.com this morning and it got me to think a little about the format war and how the availability of "always-on" 24/7 forums, datasheets, and spec sheets skew perception of reality for those most intensely involved. This quote sums the article up nicley:

"I'm not suggesting that viewers should relax their standards or accept substandard quality as "good enough" when it's really not, but the technical specs alone simply do not tell the whole story, and over-emphasizing them is a matter of misplaced priorities. We should judge these discs by the actual quality they deliver, not by misleading statistics like the bit rate or the specs listing on the packaging. Surely, that can't be too much to ask. "

Why is it that we spend countless hours arguing about bit-rates and not the actual quality of what we see on our own tv screens? How can anyone keep a straight face while arguing that an awesome DD+ soundtrack is just completely crap compared to a lossless TrueHD soundtrack when no one in their right mind can hear the difference on a conumser home theatre system? These are the arguments that fuel the format war fanboys and turn them into rabid beasts just waiting to chomp on any morsel of a spec they can lay their fingers on to back their argument. And speaking of the intense fanboys - unless one owns a significant financial stock in any of the formats, why has a plastic disc become a raison d'etre for these people? Shouldn't we judge our self worth on our own person? Being a fanboy on either side of the coin is no different than proclaiming your superiority based on the shoes you wear or the car you drive. How silly would we all sound comparing our shoes to a competing "format" - "Well, Bill, you can forget joining the marathon this weekend due to your low poly-carbonate inner sole - it just won't provide that extra nano-second you need to win the race".

It's a disc. It's plastic. It provides us entertainment, fun, and escape for two hours. But is it the meaning of life to get so heated up over?

OK, my diatribe is over. Here is the link to the article - it's a great read with an unbiased view:


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/Commentary:_Specs_vs._Reality/1096


I think this article was written for the "King of bit meter" DobyBlu.

The guy has fallen off the deep end, and spends countless hours on forums peddling how a .2 difference in star ratings from reviews makes BD superior. He even puts it in his sig.

I wonder if people enjoy the movies they buy, or just stare at the bit rate meter. Whats really scary? I wonder if anyone has told Doby that J6P, and most people give two craps about what he is talking about.

See it with your own eyes, make your own judgement. Dont get involved in spec whore debates.

That just shows how insecure people are, and how shallow, to make materialistic things ahead of their life. (personaly, I see it more (insecurity) with people that have money to blow)

And usually from people that live in expensive areas, examples are Boca, Palm Bay, West Palm Beach, Plantation Acres, Miami Beach, etc...

Just kidding.:p
(well just kidding on the PB part)

So what you’re saying is this is a snob format made for snobs by snobs for snobs. Well that’s ticked me off the idea of wanting to own one now for at least 5 years!

HD-DVD Blu-Ray is politics!:D

If that's the case...Why are we all posting here??:confused:

Well since this is the software section we could actually be talking about the quality of the movies instead of the specs of the hardware.

I believe the advent of the Internet has a lot to do with this. Back in the days of Beta vs. VHS, nobody really cared. Natural market forces took over and one format won out over the other. End of story.

Nowadays, there are public forums for every possible topic of interest on the planet, and I defy you to point one out that has not degenerated into a sniping, carping, back-biting exercise of acrimonious animosity.

I believe the advent of the Internet has a lot to do with this. Back in the days of Beta vs. VHS, nobody really cared. Natural market forces took over and one format won out over the other. End of story.

Nowadays, there are public forums for every possible topic of interest on the planet, and I defy you to point one out that has not degenerated into a sniping, carping, back-biting exercise of acrimonious animosity.

LOL oh agreed. If you visit the doctors and are waiting to be seen to, start a conversation for the person next to you. Hay mate want to do you think about the format war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray rather than presenting to take interest in looking at a pile of women’s magazines start a conversation.

I did two weeks ago and the young lad said yes its like Betamax and VHS over 20 years ago, he was only 29 and I’m 40 and he knew about the differences.

I like what was said!

People are OBSESSED with BIT RATES! I have 1 thing to say to that is WHO CARES!! If a movie unconverted to 1080P was on a disk that had a bit rate of 35mbps and a true 1080P disk had a bit rate of only 15 and people did not know what was what people would still say the 35mbps unconverted disk would be better because it had a higher bit rate even if they have not seen both.

It's sad but it's true. The only thing that matters is the PQ you see on screen and thats it.

and it is mostly just 'watching tv'.

Why is it that we spend countless hours arguing about bit-rates and not the actual quality of what we see on our own tv screens?
Now, I don't prescribe to this theory, but I believe it to be the answer to the above question:

An individual's perception of picture quality is completely subjective. The tech specs allow one to argue their view of picture (or audio) quality with quantitative data.

^^^ Agreed. The problem is that "quantitative data" doesn't necessarily indicate end result, which is how we get to where we are now.

The game console fanboy mentality has run rampant over the two HD formats...and in many cases been even worse. More than people are actually in love with their format of choice, they just want to be "right."

I wouldn't call HD-DVD a snob format at all. I have never seen prices plummet so fast on a format in my entire life. To go from $1000 to $200 in a year and a half is unheard of. So in terms of this discussion I would say HD-DVD is the Jerry Springer format. And if you read many of the belligerent posts on this forum you'll agree. Most of the posts I read on here make me feel like chanting:

"Jerry Jerry Jerry"

[QUOTE=prodwel1;12037084]I came across an interesting article on HiDefDigest.com this morning and it got me to think a little about the format war and how the availability of "always-on" 24/7 forums, datasheets, and spec sheets skew perception of reality for those most intensely involved. This quote sums the article up nicley:

"I'm not suggesting that viewers should relax their standards or accept substandard quality as "good enough" when it's really not, but the technical specs alone simply do not tell the whole story, and over-emphasizing them is a matter of misplaced priorities. We should judge these discs by the actual quality they deliver, not by misleading statistics like the bit rate or the specs listing on the packaging. Surely, that can't be too much to ask. "

Why is it that we spend countless hours arguing about bit-rates and not the actual quality of what we see on our own tv screens? How can anyone keep a straight face while arguing that an awesome DD+ soundtrack is just completely crap compared to a lossless TrueHD soundtrack when no one in their right mind can hear the difference on a conumser home theatre system? These are the arguments that fuel the format war fanboys and turn them into rabid beasts just waiting to chomp on any morsel of a spec they can lay their fingers on to back their argument. And speaking of the intense fanboys - unless one owns a significant financial stock in any of the formats, why has a plastic disc become a raison d'etre for these people? Shouldn't we judge our self worth on our own person? Being a fanboy on either side of the coin is no different than proclaiming your superiority based on the shoes you wear or the car you drive. How silly would we all sound comparing our shoes to a competing "format" - "Well, Bill, you can forget joining the marathon this weekend due to your low poly-carbonate inner sole - it just won't provide that extra nano-second you need to win the race".

It's a disc. It's plastic. It provides us entertainment, fun, and escape for two hours. But is it the meaning of life to get so heated up over?

OK, my diatribe is over. Here is the link to the article - it's a great read with an unbiased view:


Amen

im not an expert so i refrain from arguing. watching the meltdowns which ensue tho is generally funny. im kinda hoping wb goes exclusive (doesnt matter which side to me). seeing people go apeshit over an expensive frisbee is hilarious

it sure makes a lot of what goes on around here kind of silly.

it sure makes a lot of what goes on around here kind of silly.makes? It didn't "make" anything. It's always been silly, and it always will be.

I just don't get the bit rate meter people...the same ones that would never buy Transformers hd dvd because it only had DD+, but go and buy the Transformers sd with regular dd...go figure...

Just got done reading the article. I think it should be a sticky to point to if anyone mentions the need for higher bit rate.

Why do you hate Freedom?

It's a disc. It's plastic. It provides us entertainment, fun, and escape for two hours. But is it the meaning of life to get so heated up over?

You'd see rather different discussions if there were no anonymity. As it is, most are just p*ssies shouting from behind a curtain...and don't really count. People would also drive differently if license plates had names on them.

Im neutral but I will say that it seems that 99% of the bitrate rants and other meaningless drivel come from the BD crowd. Like someone else said: They are likely the ones that spent the most on gear and therefore they desperately need to justify it. Nothing wrong with pursuing quality, but theres a fine line between tangible performance gains and overpaying for a nameplate. It is this line that sensible people always straddle on the "right" side.

Actually, you want to scare the crap out of Audio/Video snobs? Just mention the phrase "Double-blind test" and they'll scatter like longtailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs..... ;)

:D

very interesting

Excellent post.

+1

If that's the case...Why are we all posting here??:confused:


Agreed ! If it weren't for the fact that the majority of us get a kick out of minutia ,that J6P would consider the epitome of nerdom ,this whole forum would not exist. It's pathetic to now act like we are above all of that.

Art

Agreed ! If it weren't for the fact that the majority of us get a kick out of minutia ,that J6P would consider the epitome of nerdom ,this whole forum would not exist. It's pathetic to now act like we are above all of that.

Art

You and your damned "making sense".....

What a troublemaker you are, Art! ;)

Yeah, I always wonder who is more of a nitpicker, a home theater nut, or a musician about his gear. I'm leaning towards the former.

:cool:

Because we as humans are natural debaters, we debate everything, because anything man made is not without flaws. Plus this form communication is just the tip of the iceberg of things to come. Nanotech is on the horizon, its only a couple more decades and pc's will cease to exist as we know it. Advanced neural telecommunication will be a reality.

Forum socialization closely represents the growth of tissue, as it grows it adapts and evolves constant motion, ever changing to trend, popular belief, ideals, so on ans so forth.

What you see and do now on a forum, cherish it cause a time will come where we no longer need places like this, and pool of users can debate and commune freely anywhere, anytime..even when occupied with other tasks.

~Bobby

This is just an excellent topic in my opinion. And makes me wonder why must everything be so darn complicated when it comes to A/V and the pleasure of enjoying movies, which in the end it the ultimate goal. When did we get true-hd over DD or even DD PLXII. You can understand why the uneducated consumer, or even some of the educated ones are so confused these days with HDTV, 480i,480p etc, plasma, lcd, DLP. Even my father, who is by far the smartest man I know, is shopping for a tv and is confused. I try to help but I don't want to turn into the bad guy when he buys a tv, and it's not compatible with something because it uses a HDMI connection instead of DVI. It is a bit upsetting to me that the industry can't seem to get along a little better. I understand business is business, but in the end the consumer is the one who must understand the technology and ultimately purchase the product, so you the manufacturer makes money (hopefully---Sony take note).

When I first setup my theater I was so happy just to have a new Infocus IN78playing off a Denon upconverting DVD player. That feeling lasted about 2 weeks and then I was off buying an HD player. 3 weeks later I'm looking at blu-ray, because god forbid I can't get all the titles I like on HD. It almost makes me want to stop visiting this site, cancel my electronic house, home theater, and electronic home ideas subscriptions and just be dumb about what the next new and hottest thing that is coming out next week.

I'm not materialistic, I have a nice new home, which I work very hard for. A great wife who accepts my hobby, although skeptical at first, she now loves the dedicated theater. I just want the best picture and sound possible---to an extent. Should I care If I listening to True-hd over DD PLIIx? Would I even now the difference if someone else set it up and I just walked into the room?

So in closing I think Prodwel is right. It's a disc, it's for entertainment. Enjoy the Popcorn.

If I could not worry over the minutia, why would I research products at all? The average 720p projector is an awesome piece of work. The average 1080p projector is truly a marvel of modern society. I do not need online forums to make an excellent purchase, I need them to make this a hobby. There used to be brick and mortar stores where I could walk in and discuss my hobby with enthusiasts (customers) there for research of their own. Now, I must go online for the same interaction. Minutia IS the big picture for me.

"How can anyone keep a straight face while arguing that an awesome DD+ soundtrack is just completely crap compared to a lossless TrueHD soundtrack when no one in their right mind can hear the difference on a conumser home theatre system?"

I too feel that people should not claim a DD+ audio track is crap. So far I have been very pleased with the DD+ audio tracks I have heard. ALL of the DD+ tracks I have heard are of high quality. But, you are completely incorrect when you say no one can hear the difference on a consumer system. How bad-sounding does a system need to be to blur the differences?

High-end audio formats are not meant for bad-sounding systems. Just as 1080p is not meant for a standard def television. You do realize that the average television is still a 4:3 CRT? Have you considered that the average High Definition television is 720p? They are including twice that resolution on the disks, and could have put on more extras! :p

It's just good old human nature to complain. But the HDDVD vs Blu Ray fanboy stuff is beyond crazy. The stockholders are the only people that should be touting that one format is better than the other, because the have a vested intrest. In reality there is so little difference in picture or sound quality between Blu Ray and HDDVD. But the arguments will continue on just like both formats. Just like over in the Display threads, where someone will by posting that you might as well not bother buying a HDM player if you only have a 720P display. All along while they are watching on a 32 inch 1080P display from 15 feet away, because that is what the people at Best Buy told them they needed to enjoy HDM's. All I know is that both my wife and myself were amazed at how amazing the picture of Transformers on HDDVD and Spiderman 3 on BluRay looked on our 720P Projector at 100in, even compared to our 1080P 42in LCD. People get too caught up in the numbers and specs, rather than enjoying what they have in front of them.

Fanboys are the most insecure people out there...they need constant reassurance and justification that they made the right decision to keep their buyer's remorse at bay.

The insecurity typically carries over into other aspects of their lives, as well, and they're very easy to spot.

I've always been a neutral player in movies and video games, but I have to say from observation that blu-ray fanboys (not PS3, blu-ray) are the most laughable, stubborn, jaded, crazy group of people I've ever seen.

Im neutral but I will say that it seems that 99% of the bitrate rants and other meaningless drivel come from the BD crowd. Like someone else said: They are likely the ones that spent the most on gear and therefore they desperately need to justify it. Nothing wrong with pursuing quality, but theres a fine line between tangible performance gains and overpaying for a nameplate. It is this line that sensible people always straddle on the "right" side.

Actually, you want to scare the crap out of Audio/Video snobs? Just mention the phrase "Double-blind test" and they'll scatter like longtailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs..... ;)

:D

Excellent points. LMAO at longtailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs!!!

If I could not worry over the minutia, why would I research products at all? The average 720p projector is an awesome piece of work. The average 1080p projector is truly a marvel of modern society. I do not need online forums to make an excellent purchase, I need them to make this a hobby. There used to be brick and mortar stores where I could walk in and discuss my hobby with enthusiasts (customers) there for research of their own. Now, I must go online for the same interaction. Minutia IS the big picture for me.

I think Riblet brings up a great point here. I think all of us enthusiasts miss the days when we could walk into a store selling home theatre equipment and receive a friendly greeting from an actual professional in a suit and tie who knew everything there was to know about all the equipment in the store. As "big box" stores become the standard in our ever-homogonized shopping world, home theatre equipment starts to look like just another margin-based commodity. To maximize profits, we get salespersons who are in high school and college who aren't in it for the long run who have little enthusiasm for these products. You can't blame them - they're working to pay their bills, but the passion isn't there because in today's America you can't make a decent career or wage selling home theatre equipment (well - there are the dedicated shops for the elite, but they aren't the mainstream anymore). Now we have forums - and as much as the nit-picking can get annoying, I think Riblet makes a good point - if we don't have the expert salesperson to look to for answers, how else would we get our info?