I've noticed the past few weeks in the 4 shows I watch that NBC has crept these big ass promotions into their HD feeds just like TNT does. They take up the bottom ~20% of the screen usually from edge to edge. If its not edge to edge it takes up over half of the screen with the little color from the peacock telling me what I am currently watching (because I'm a dumbass), what comes on next, and then promoting a show on in 4 days. :confused:

Last night during Bourne Supremacy, which I turned off right after this, there was a promotion for some other show later in the week. The particular scene in the movie was dark but this huge bright white banner came on. Very annoying.

I used to enjoy the fact that this junk didn't litter up the HD programs. Now I see them on NBC and am even more glad that I don't watch this channel much. After ER and Scrubs end after this season I'll be happy I only watch 2 shows on this channel. That and the fact that our local sends the HD signal at less than 12 mbps.

I don't recall seeing this junk on CBS, ABC, or FOX.

Is NBC the new TNT? Hey, maybe they can do Scrubs in strech-o-vision......

What makes it worse is they're schlepping that brainless "Phenomenon" during their premium primetime scripted dramas.

(and it seems to always be a dark scene that is interrupted with the big, bright white banner)

I agree, this is very frustrating and annoying. I only watch NBC for Life and L&Os so its not too bad for me.

I know exactly what show I'm watching, I don't need to know whats on next or in a few days or weeks. I have a channel guide, TV Guide Channel, online resources, the news paper, etc.

All last year they made inroads with getting viewers to the channel with Heroes, FNL, 30 Rock, The Office etc.

Now they are just pissing off the same viewers they worked so hard to get.

Another great Silverman idea I imagine.

What makes it worse is they're schlepping that brainless "Phenomenon" during their premium primetime scripted dramas.

(and it seems to always be a dark scene that is interrupted with the big, bright white banner)

I know, the first time it's like whoa!, why is there a dove flying across the screen... ohh it's a fn promo. :mad:

The least they could do is limit it to ONCE per show, I mean come on do we really need to see it after every break.

We are "voting" with our eyeballs and our family is taking our viewing elsewhere. NBC idiots. Their dingie is sinking, taking on water, and they are pissing in the bottom of the boat.

We are "voting" with our eyeballs and our family is taking our viewing elsewhere. NBC idiots. Their dingie is sinking, taking on water, and they are pissing in the bottom of the boat.

I think they are banking on the assumption that a "prestige-less" network is something that won't drastically affect the bottom line until NBC is under new ownership.

Right now they are in the mode of selling off that prestige at $0.10 on the dollar.

Hey, they've simply completed their plunge to tier-II network status. If you're no longer a legitimate Major Network there's no reason to act/look like one right? It's one of the perks of being a crappy, irrelevant network. They can now plaster advertising all over their programming at will without regard to things like providing a quality viewing experience etc. :rolleyes:

Once the proud peacock, now a sniveling second rate doormat. Pretty pathetic....


ron

I agree that screen crawls, etc. while a show is on are extremely annoying. I am trying to train myself to ignore them, though, because they are clearly the wave of the future. As more and more people record everything they watch in order to be able to fast forward through the commercial interruptions, the networks are going to counter with more and more commercial content shown simultaneously with the shows. It sucks but there it is.

The only way to ignore this new breed of NBC promo is to close your eyes.

Someone on here has a great sig that says TNT: We know pop-ups. They could add NBC to that sig.

Someone on here has a great sig that says TNT: We know pop-ups. They could add NBC to that sig.

NBC: Must See Pop-Ups...? ;)

NBC: Must See Pop-Ups...? ;)
Good call.

I agree that screen crawls, etc. while a show is on are extremely annoying. I am trying to train myself to ignore them, though, because they are clearly the wave of the future. As more and more people record everything they watch in order to be able to fast forward through the commercial interruptions, the networks are going to counter with more and more commercial content shown simultaneously with the shows. It sucks but there it is.

How far away are we from having a window in the corner showing commercials during the programming? Wait maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas :)

I wish I knew what research they do that shows that this is effective in getting advertising. I guess its the same idiots that answer the phone for telemarketers that this works on.

They wonder why the audiences are shrinking for network television. 18-20 minutes of commercials per hour on average, of which a big chuck on that is self promotion for the network, and now these pop-ups. Even pay tv (Showtime) is guilty of in show promotion pop-ups. DVD made me leave network television almost all together for a while until HDTV got me back. This kind of thing is making me want to leave again.

How far away are we from having a window in the corner showing commercials during the programming? Wait maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas :)

Already there, our great friends at TNT decided to ruin an HD broadcast of the Pepsi 400 NASCAR race by doing this.

ESPN and ABC have been doing this for a few years on IRL races, however, their implementation was much better then TNTs.

Already there, our great friends at TNT decided to ruin an HD broadcast of the Pepsi 400 NASCAR race by doing this.

ESPN and ABC have been doing this for a few years on IRL races, however, their implementation was much better then TNTs.
ESPN also tried to do it during MLS games. It was terrible and they quickly stopped it.

Tonight while watching Heroes, NBC finally pulled my last nerve and broke the final straw.

It's bad enough that we've had to sit through the same type of obnoxious promos that are spreading across cable for shows like Bionic Woman, Friday Night Lights, Journeyman etc. while we are watching something else. Then we had to endure the animated lower third for Phenomenon three times during an hour for the past three weeks. Now they think it's okay to advertise NBC Universal theatrical releases in the lower third during their prime time shows.

It's time to tell them it's not okay. It's time to tell them that if they want to keep the new viewers that they've acquired by finally airing good quality shows like Heroes, Chuck, Friday Night Lights, The Office, 30 Rock and My name is Earl then they need to start treating the audience with respect. We choose to watch those shows and we can just as easily choose to watch something else.

Let them know. Contact:

Michael Pilot
Michael.Pilot@nbcuni.com
President, NBCU Sales & Marketing
212.664.6795

Jim Hoffman
James.Hoffman@nbcuni.com
SVP, Network Entertainment Sales
212.664.7045


NBC think it's okay to force advertising on us, so return the favor. If you have any junk mail put it in an envelope and send it to:

NBCUNI.COM FEEDBACK
100 Universal City Plaza
Universal City, CA 91608

Got a blog? Post on other forums? Copy and paste this information there. If you sit back and do nothing then pretty soon your favorite shows will be animated billboards.

I noticed that as well.

I may wait anmd start seeing Heroes on Mojo.

Topics merged.

NBC was even advertising a movie (American Gangster) during Sunday nights Bourne Supremacy that hasn't even started in the theaters yet. :mad: And your right OP, nbc is taking up the bottom 15-20% of the screen.

Ok, so we encourage the convergence of our TVs and our PCs and we get Google to write an add-in for our TVs that is a pop-up blocker. We have pop-up blockers for our web browser, why not for our TVs? ;)

Tonight while watching Heroes, NBC finally pulled my last nerve and broke the final straw.

It's bad enough that we've had to sit through the same type of obnoxious promos that are spreading across cable for shows like Bionic Woman, Friday Night Lights, Journeyman etc. while we are watching something else. Then we had to endure the animated lower third for Phenomenon three times during an hour for the past three weeks. Now they think it's okay to advertise NBC Universal theatrical releases in the lower third during their prime time shows.

It's time to tell them it's not okay. It's time to tell them that if they want to keep the new viewers that they've acquired by finally airing good quality shows like Heroes, Chuck, Friday Night Lights, The Office, 30 Rock and My name is Earl then they need to start treating the audience with respect. We choose to watch those shows and we can just as easily choose to watch something else.

Let them know. Contact:

Michael Pilot
Michael.Pilot@nbcuni.com
President, NBCU Sales & Marketing
212.664.6795

Jim Hoffman
James.Hoffman@nbcuni.com
SVP, Network Entertainment Sales
212.664.7045


NBC think it's okay to force advertising on us, so return the favor. If you have any junk mail put it in an envelope and send it to:

NBCUNI.COM FEEDBACK
100 Universal City Plaza
Universal City, CA 91608

Got a blog? Post on other forums? Copy and paste this information there. If you sit back and do nothing then pretty soon your favorite shows will be animated billboards.

I was wondering if you guys noticed the movie ad. I cringed and wanted to throw something at the TV. What's next...a big "DRINK MOUNTAIN DEW" ad?

Ugh....I mean I understand with DVRs they're trying to find ways to advertise things, but enough is enough. First the Phenomenon thing (literally the most annoying thing ever) then the peacock dance, and now the movie ads. Ugh!

This is all because we didn't stand up to the "watermark" network logo thing (which I used to think was the pinnacle of annoyingness). Now they're just pushing their luck. Maybe someone more ambitious than me could start a "boycott this show" group. I know I was interested in Phenomemon when I first heard about it, but after weeks of that stupid promo I decided not to just based on principle.

Attach this when you write him.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3268/vlcsnap291559ak6.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap291559ak6.jpg)

My email to them this morning.

Subject: HD programming pop-ups

To whom it may concern,
I would like to voice my displeasure with the way NBC is now doing pop-ups and promotions during HD programming.

It’s as if NBC has fallen down to the level of TNT, which is the worst at pop-ups and almost everything HD in general. I do not see these annoying ads on your rival stations. NBC HD is no longer a “premium service” now that this is going on.

In particular it is very discouraging to be watching a movie, in this instance Bourne Supremacy, and during a dark scene see this blaring white ad for Phenomenon or whatever taking up the bottom 20% of my TV screen. It was enough for me to turn off the movie and watch another station. And the crazy thing about it was I love that movie, and have it on DVD. But the way the ads are done is enough to push me away from watching a movie I have already seen numerous times that I was interested in seeing again. I ended up getting the movie and popping it into the DVD player after the other show was over.

During programming I don’t need to be reminded after every commercial break what I am watching, what comes on next, and then what comes on 4 days from now. It is very annoying, distracting, and takes away from the viewing experience. My viewing of NBC will drastically decrease if nothing is done about this practice.

Thank you,
Dennis

NBC was even advertising a movie (American Gangster) during Sunday nights Bourne Supremacy that hasn't even started in the theaters yet. :mad: And your right OP, nbc is taking up the bottom 15-20% of the screen.

Didn't NBC "News" also dedicate a full hour of Dateline to American Gangster ?

I know I was interested in Phenomemon when I first heard about it, but after weeks of that stupid promo I decided not to just based on principle.

The 'Phenomenon' promo had the same effect on me. I was mildly interested in it before I saw the pop-up promos, but now there is almost no chance I will watch it.
When Showtime did the same with promos for 'The Tudors' about a year ago during episodes of 'Penn & Teller B.S.' (or maybe it was during 'Weeds'), I vowed never to watch 'The Tudors'. I was more offended by Showtime doing it because it is a pay channel.

And it will only be a matter of time that a constant ad (a-la FX "IT'S ALWAYS SUNNY or Bravo "Real Housewives new season in 6 days") will be atop the NBC-HD logo. Maybe next the screen can be shrunk down and ads can pop up around all the edges. The endless repetitive shilling (which was ripped apart by Lewis Black on the Emmys and can be seen here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYhupmhhBw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYhupmhhBw)) by all the networks has got to be scaled back big time. And we thought the watermarks and 1000mph closing credits were bad enough.

This post sponsored by FRANK TV and Phenomenon (LIVE in 6 days)

ESPN also tried to do it during MLS games. It was terrible and they quickly stopped it.
They did it for an entire season! 3 goals took place during "ESPN Side by side so you don't miss a moment of action." (i can see it now: "all 3?" come up with something more creative ;) )

They did it for an entire season! 3 goals took place during "ESPN Side by side so you don't miss a moment of action." (i can see it now: "all 3?" come up with something more creative ;) )
Wow, I didn't realize they did it that long. I guess that was because I stopped watching because of that.

There is a slightly good sign. The last NBC Viewer Panel survey included questions about pop up ads during shows. I believe they gave them an innocuous term like "on-screen promotions".

"Have you watched a show or purchased a product because you saw it in an on-screen promotion?" and "Do you get information about other shows from these on-screen promotions?". Of course I answered absolutely totally never! I certainly don't need a banner telling me what show I'm watching right now!

It appears as though our "honeymoon" period is nearing the end. Up until recently, all of this pop-up sludge has been limited to the network's SD feed, presumably because they didn't want to invest in HD graphics gear, and there weren't enough HD eyeballs to worry about. Now that the tide is turning, so are they, and this stuff is now creeping into "our" world.

Sad to say that NBC is probably just the start. I see tons of pop-ups on FOX SD for example, but not HD -- I'm sure it's only a matter of time before that changes. Same for the others. :mad:

Just saw for the first time, a lower banner - about 25% of the screen - for a local car dealer ad put up during one of our affiliates' syndicated early evening programming. With motion video included.

There is a slightly good sign. The last NBC Viewer Panel survey included questions about pop up ads during shows. I believe they gave them an innocuous term like "on-screen promotions".

"Have you watched a show or purchased a product because you saw it in an on-screen promotion?" and "Do you get information about other shows from these on-screen promotions?". Of course I answered absolutely totally never! I certainly don't need a banner telling me what show I'm watching right now!
Did you get that thru email? I wanna fill it out.

Did you get that thru email? I wanna fill it out.

Yeah, just PM me an email address and the next time they email me a survey, I can "invite" you to be on the survey panel. You'll get an email invitation that will take you to a unique URL for the survey.

The ad for Sunday Night Football during The Office tonight was beyond ridiculous. It really wouldn't surprise if one of the reasons they're doing this now is to try and stop people from downloading episodes via unofficial means now that they no longer offer shows on iTunes.

It really wouldn't surprise if one of the reasons they're doing this now is to try and stop people from downloading episodes via unofficial means now that they no longer offer shows on iTunes.I don't see any logic behind that. Anything that would detract from a **********ed show, detracts just as much from the network broadcast.

No, this is aimed squarely at DVR users, like me, who skip most of the interruptive ads.

I hope everybody who hates these banners and pop-ups saw the opening of the latest (11/4) episode of The Simpsons. This practice took a beating -- and a hilarious one at that!

Sad to say that NBC is probably just the start. I see tons of pop-ups on FOX SD for example, but not HD -- I'm sure it's only a matter of time before that changes. Same for the others. :mad:I agree. Despite the fact that many people don't like the practice, now three major media companies are doing this regularly, and others are doing it occasionally. The trend is in the direction you've alluded to: that this will be the standard going forward.

It's not even just for their television shows; banners for the film American Gangster rolled across the bottom third of many NBC shows last week.

Yes, it's a Universal release. Alec Baldwin's character on 30 Rock would be so proud.

Ha... and then the networks wonder why year after year their viewer base is shrinking.

There isn't any compelling objective evidence that this practice either shrinks or expands the viewer-base. Meanwhile, there is pretty-decent evidence that the viewer-base is shrinking due to additional competition from other media (i.e., Internet) and other sources for television programs (i.e., purchased/rented DVDs).

I believe this is a direct response to the popularity of DVRs. If consumers consistently avoid watching the commercials, the networks have to find a way to get the commercials into the portions of recordings viewers see.

NBC doesn't care so much if we avoid watching local or national paying advertisers as long as the shows are rated well. If we don't watch NBC/U commercials, it may hurt their viewership (in their minds). Specials and new shows only get viewers through marketing. They are marketing during the only part of recorded shows that we watch: the real content.

And no, I am not supporting the practice at all. I am merely explaining why it will not go away.

NBC doesn't care so much if we avoid watching local or national paying advertisers as long as the shows are rated well. If we don't watch NBC/U commercials, it may hurt their viewership (in their minds). Specials and new shows only get viewers through marketing. They are marketing during the only part of recorded shows that we watch: the real content.


NBC and all other networks care deeply about viewers watching the paid ads. Advertisers know what is going on and commercials are rated as well. Advertisers will not accept not being seen.

I believe this is a direct response to the popularity of DVRs.Not necessarily. Recent data shows no significant difference in the number of commercials watched and the time spent watching commercials, between live viewing and DVR viewing.

Not necessarily. Recent data shows no significant difference in the number of commercials watched and the time spent watching commercials, between live viewing and DVR viewing.

Here, I think it is the networks' perception of the problem more than the real problem. It becomes similar to real estate. Land becomes valuable because or location or lack of supply. The move to use content space for ads is more than likely one of the following reasons:

they are convinced people pay more attention to the ad during the show
they are out of space in the commercial time slots
or, they believe they can sell more ad space to paying external customers if they use more content-space ads for themselves

This has gone from bad to worse. Here in the Chicago market, WMAQ is the local NBC affiliate. During last night's broadcast of The Office, not only did we have to endure the pop-over ads for NBC shows, but WMAQ switched the HD feed to the SD so they could run their own crawl (like a weather advisory) advertising a personal appearance by "Stanley" at a WMAQ sponsored event at Navy Pier! This ridiculous thing appeared across the top of the screen for several minutes right smack in the middle of the show!

I've lost all respect for NBC and our local affiliate. This has gone from annoying to infuriating.

...there is pretty-decent evidence that the viewer-base is shrinking due to additional competition from other media (i.e., Internet) and other sources for television programs (i.e., purchased/rented DVDs).
I wonder how much of a coincidence it is that those new forms of media have few commercials and no pop-ups during the show...

Such commercialization won't happen until the media become popular.

This has gone from bad to worse. Here in the Chicago market, WMAQ is the local NBC affiliate. During last night's broadcast of The Office, not only did we have to endure the pop-over ads for NBC shows, but WMAQ switched the HD feed to the SD so they could run their own crawl (like a weather advisory) advertising a personal appearance by "Stanley" at a WMAQ sponsored event at Navy Pier! This ridiculous thing appeared across the top of the screen for several minutes right smack in the middle of the show!

I've lost all respect for NBC and our local affiliate. This has gone from annoying to infuriating.
Now that sucks.

I only noticed the pop-ups once during Heros. Of course I wasn't always looking at the screen.

I think they are falling into a trap of trying to sustain a dying business model. Read 'Only The Paranoid Survive' by Andy Grove. Many instances of successful companies that could not transition with technology. They continue to try and work a business model that made them successful rather than think outside the box and look for alternatives.

This has gone from bad to worse. Here in the Chicago market, WMAQ is the local NBC affiliate. During last night's broadcast of The Office, not only did we have to endure the pop-over ads for NBC shows, but WMAQ switched the HD feed to the SD so they could run their own crawl (like a weather advisory) advertising a personal appearance by "Stanley" at a WMAQ sponsored event at Navy Pier! This ridiculous thing appeared across the top of the screen for several minutes right smack in the middle of the show!



lol, you're right. I was like, "wtf!?!" when that happened. It's bad enough with all the network bannering and crawling going on as it is, but to actually shrink the episode's image down to only half of my tv's screen size throughout the promo was exasperating. I mean, do they really not understand how disorienting and irritating it is to the viewer? I find that hard to believe they couldn't, but who knows what's going on in their heads. Sheesh!

WMAQ was probably thinking, "Ya know, most people don't watch in HD, and we don't have an HD keyer, yet, so the vast majority of people won't notice a cut to SD. Besides, at least the HD viewers will be getting something.

/trying to get inside the mind of a bunch of executives -- always looking out for themselves > the majority of viewers > the minority of viewers who, in this case, spent a load of cash to watch their stuff in HD.

/trying to get inside the mind of a bunch of executives -- always looking out for themselves > the majority of viewers > the minority of viewers who, in this case, spent a load of cash to watch their stuff in HD.
I have an email from the VP of WREG here in Memphis that told me they rely on their station personnel to dictate how their HD looks, not the public. WOW.

Our NBC affiliate just started HD local news broadcast but, for the week leading up to the switch the affiliate added there own pop ups after the national NBC ones advertising this HD new broadcast. Problem is they covered up some subtitles during an episode of Heroes and a few times even covered up the national NBC pop ups. I have sent emails to the addresses mention in this thread. If NBC wants me to continue to watch Heroes 2 things must happen... 1 the writing on Heroes must get better... 2 the pop up ads must stop. Since Mojo has started airing Heroes I have an alternative.

I have an email from the VP of WREG here in Memphis that told me they rely on their station personnel to dictate how their HD looks, not the public. WOW.

Jeez even if that was true, if I was the VP of the station I would never admit that publicly in an email. Looks like someone needs PR 101.

I have an email from the VP of WREG here in Memphis that told me they rely on their station personnel to dictate how their HD looks, not the public. WOW.Jeez even if that was true, if I was the VP of the station I would never admit that publicly in an email. Looks like someone needs PR 101.I don't know. Isn't what that exec stated pretty obvious?

/kidding, sort of
//not an executive for WREG. OR AM I? :D:D:D

...I am merely explaining why it will not go away.It will go away. For me.

The more they do this crap, the less I find myself watching broadcast television.

NBC is now doing what FX does, except the logo and text are at 100% opacity.
This is from 10:40pm tonight:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3006/snapshot20071210md6.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20071210md6.jpg)

NBC is now doing what FX does, except the logo and text are at 100% opacity.
Yes, I caught it. It actually put me off from watching some of Journeyman, which I haven't seen before.

And before that logo came on screen we had the large banner at the bottom of the screen promoting the same show.

Yes, I caught it. It actually put me off from watching some of Journeyman, which I haven't seen before.
All of their annoying pop-ups (first) and terrible pq of my local NBC (second) puts me off watching NBC. If they are trying to stop me from tivo'ing through the commercials it ain't working. Once Scrubs and ER are over this season I will be down to 2 shows from NBC, Earl and Heros. Waaaaayy down from a few years ago.

I just noticed all this hub bub tonight. I've got "Clash of the Choirs Next Monday" burned in on the bottom left of my Panny LCD. Noticed it during commercials. Of course it's not perma-burn-in and will fade when I turn it off after I'm through watching, but still a threat. Very annoying.:mad:

+1 for the bright white "Clash of the Choirs Next Monday" bug (and various other popups) being very annoying during this evening's episode of Journeyman.

For what it is worth, I e-mailed NBC and my local affiliate complaining about this billboarding. Clash of the Choirs is burned into the lower-left hand corner of my brain. There are promos at the end of every commerical break, pop-ups going in/out of commericals, more commercials than ever before, squeezing out opening credit sequences on many shows and of course promos over closing credits going by at 100 mph.

What's next? Actors breaking out of character mid-scene and promoting other shows? A promo for another show next to the yellow line during NFL games?

My guess is that we'll see Fox and ABC do this next, with CBS coming up behind a few months later.

On the 12/11/07 showing of Las Vegas NBC decided it was a good idea to advertise the new Bourne DVD with a popup ad that filled the lower third of the screen. NBC needs to stop this crap or we will be done watching NBC shows.

That promo bug logo looks even worse on the SD Deal or No Deal feed.

What's next? Actors breaking out of character mid-scene and promoting other shows? A promo for another show next to the yellow line during NFL games? roflmao, good one.

My guess is that we'll see Fox and ABC do this next, with CBS coming up behind a few months later.

ABC is on the upswing and basically won sweeps. CBS is competitive in overall viewers. Fox has actually grown viewers year-to-year in the 18-49 since last season. DVR+7 data shows that overall ratings declines aren't nearly as bad as live data would suggest, except at NBC. I'd contend that these are merely the signs of a desperate network on its last leg. NBC has nothing good to show from the last several seasons. It's riding Deal or No Deal as a success when Deal isn't half the ratings powerhouse or cultural phenomenon that Millionaire was when ABC was in the dumps.

Plus, they've consistently shown that they have no interest being the quality network anymore with their descent into reality madness. If you've got nothing to lose, why not go for broke?

ABC is on the upswing and basically won sweeps. CBS is competitive in overall viewers. Fox has actually grown viewers year-to-year in the 18-49 since last season. DVR+7 data shows that overall ratings declines aren't nearly as bad as live data would suggest, except at NBC.
Serves them right.

ABC is on the upswing and basically won sweeps. CBS is competitive in overall viewers. Fox has actually grown viewers year-to-year in the 18-49 since last season.In each case, all the more reason to take a revenue-generating idea and run with it.

I'd contend that these are merely the signs of a desperate network on its last leg.That would be nice, but I think is just wishful thinking.

Plus, they've consistently shown that they have no interest being the quality network anymore with their descent into reality madness. You mean like Dancing with the Stars? Survivor? and American Idol?

On the 12/11/07 showing of Las Vegas NBC decided it was a good idea to advertise the new Bourne DVD with a popup ad that filled the lower third of the screen. NBC needs to stop this crap or we will be done watching NBC shows.
Glad I watched that episode on the web... :)

We need to let NBC know how we feel. Instead of concentrating on L&O SVU, all I saw was "Clash of The Choirs Next Monday 8/7" billboarded. NBC has run out of ideas.

On the 12/11/07 showing of Las Vegas NBC decided it was a good idea to advertise the new Bourne DVD with a popup ad that filled the lower third of the screen. NBC needs to stop this crap or we will be done watching NBC shows.

For whatever reason(s), a lot of viewers are NOT watching NBC and yesterday I read that the network is now returning $$$$$$ to a number of advertisers because the network did not deliver the guaranteed viewers (ie..ratings) that it promised. It sounds like the popup ads is a way to make up some of this lost revenue.

Steve

^^^ That would make sense if the pop-ups/permanent bugs were for shows/products other than NBC/Universal TV shows/movies. But NBC-Universal promoting NBC-Universal isn't going to make them money and prevent them from owing advertisers make goods.

By the same token, perhaps they'll use the pop-ups to address their make-good shortfall.

For what it is worth, I e-mailed NBC and my local affiliate complaining about this billboarding. Clash of the Choirs is burned into the lower-left hand corner of my brain. There are promos at the end of every commerical break, pop-ups going in/out of commericals, more commercials than ever before, squeezing out opening credit sequences on many shows and of course promos over closing credits going by at 100 mph.


yeah but it works! I mean look at the great ratings for the other shows they promo with pop-ups like Bionic Woman and Phenomenon! The advertisers must be extremely pleased and I know I'll definitely be tuning in to Battle of the Choirs and it's not something that I would normally have watched before. It's been advertised so much that it must be really good. I wouldn't have known it was on if it hadn't been for the constant barrage of ads NBC are running.

You would think someone would come out with some kind of paperback guide that tells you what shows are on TV, or even better a guide that appears on your TV so that you can see what's on every night and maybe get a little synopsis of the show as well. That would save a lot of work for the media department at NBC. They must be really tired producing all these really useful promos.

A guide would be cool. Maybe I'll look into patenting that idea.

I had to laugh out loud in last week's "Las Vegas" because of the intrusiveness of the 1/3 screen pop-up ads for the new Bourne movie on DVD and also because of a lame attempt at product placement. A plot point had this guy getting down on his knee to propose to his fiancee and he opened a ring box to show her the ring, a Kay Jewelers ring box with the logo prominently displayed... stuck in our nose so to speak... about ten seconds later they cut to a regular Kay Jeweler's commercial. Irritating potential customers is not a very wise decision. Screw NBC, screw the new Bourne DVD, and screw Kay Jewelers. The networks are dying and they don't even understand why.

I've said for years...even as a participant in the medium...that the "suits" were going to kill the Golden Goose. They're well on the way.

The last thing that Jeff Zucker (Chmn/NBCU) did right was over a decade ago when he resurrected the Today show. He was recently head of West Coast program development...and hasn't that been a smashing success?

yeah but it works! I mean look at the great ratings for the other shows they promo with pop-ups like Bionic Woman and Phenomenon! The advertisers must be extremely pleased and I know I'll definitely be tuning in to Battle of the Choirs and it's not something that I would normally have watched before. It's been advertised so much that it must be really good. I wouldn't have known it was on if it hadn't been for the constant barrage of ads NBC are running.

You would think someone would come out with some kind of paperback guide that tells you what shows are on TV, or even better a guide that appears on your TV so that you can see what's on every night and maybe get a little synopsis of the show as well. That would save a lot of work for the media department at NBC. They must be really tired producing all these really useful promos.

A guide would be cool. Maybe I'll look into patenting that idea.

Um, doesn't your current provider have an on-screen program guide already or did the your NC state legislature ban it as pornography too?

yeah but it works! I mean look at the great ratings for the other shows they promo with pop-ups like Bionic Woman and Phenomenon!You must be kidding.

Like I said before, the Choir promo actually put me off from checking out Journeyman.

Screw the bottom of the screen, why don't they move the programming over to the right half of the screen, show a commercial during the program, both with audio and video, and then when that is over, put the programming back to regular size, then create a huge bug on the right side that said "You just saw a commercial for "product" Stay tuned for a commercial for "product" and then "Product" will be seen as a commercial on Wednesday.

Oh, and that have to do it during important scenes of the program.

You mean like Dancing with the Stars? Survivor? and American Idol?
Except each of those threee shows air on different networks. NBC's upcoming lineup shows wall to wall reality crap. The other Universal properties seem to think that's the way to go with even SciFi getting the reality bug.

Screw the bottom of the screen, why don't they move the programming over to the right half of the screen, show a commercial during the program, both with audio and video, and then when that is over, put the programming back to regular size, then create a huge bug on the right side that said "You just saw a commercial for "product" Stay tuned for a commercial for "product" and then "Product" will be seen as a commercial on Wednesday.

Oh, and that have to do it during important scenes of the program.

Sure, just like a webpage, and then we will have to get plugins like ABP to block the commercials/side ads. :D

Um, doesn't your current provider have an on-screen program guide already or did the your NC state legislature ban it as pornography too?

amazing how sarcasm can so easily fly over people's heads. :rolleyes:

Sure, just like a webpage, and then we will have to get plugins like ABP to block the commercials/side ads. :D
Yeah, but first someone has to figure out how to block those Flash ads that cover everything and don't have a "close" button until the whole animation runs. Pay a visit to the "new and improved" IMDB to see the future of "in your face" advertising...as if an ad running around the entire border of the page wasn't enough... :mad:

Now that I think of it, I wonder why advertisers haven't jumped on the fast-forwarding thing yet to capitalize on the audience that has DVRs.

I can see it now: a full screen, static image of a Nike logo, with a caption that reads "Nike: Sneakers for people who like to skip ads".

They can run it as a full screen image for an entire 30 seconds with some music to keep people who watch shows live entertained...

Now that I think of it, I wonder why advertisers haven't jumped on the fast-forwarding thing yet to capitalize on the audience that has DVRs.

I can see it now: a full screen, static image of a Nike logo, with a caption that reads "Nike: Sneakers for people who like to skip ads".

They can run it as a full screen image for an entire 30 seconds with some music to keep people who watch shows live entertained...

TiVo has already been testing something along these lines.

I think that is one of the reasons the TiVo skip function works a little differently than it used to. In the past you could hit the skip button as rapidly as you could and it would zoom through all the ads, you'd see them, but not long enough to register. Now, when you skip too fast, the image stays static on whatever image was on the screen when you started. IOW, to make sure you don't go too far, you have to slow down the button presses and consequently, you're seeing more of the ads.

Yeah, but first someone has to figure out how to block those Flash ads that cover everything and don't have a "close" button until the whole animation runs. Pay a visit to the "new and improved" IMDB to see the future of "in your face" advertising...as if an ad running around the entire border of the page wasn't enough... :mad:

I just tried both the IMDBPro and the normal IMDB home pages and they both look okay to me. I'm using ABP, not sure if that's maiking a difference, but I didn't see any Flash ads.

Might be because I have an account at IMDB, even the normal page shows my login name at the top.

I just tried both the IMDBPro and the normal IMDB home pages and they both look okay to me. I'm using ABP, not sure if that's maiking a difference, but I didn't see any Flash ads.

Might be because I have an account at IMDB, even the normal page shows my login name at the top.
They aren't always there - only when certain movies come out. I believe "The Mist" was the latest one. Before that may have been "1408". It's still annoying on those few occasions when they use them.

PC Magazine uses them too, but theirs creep down the page as you scroll down so you can't get away from them.

What's next? Actors breaking out of character mid-scene and promoting other shows? A promo for another show next to the yellow line during NFL games?
Well, "Spin City" kind of did this with "Sportsnight" at one point. MJF turned the show on and that was the lead in to Sportsnight. It's not as bad as what you mentioned, though, and it was actually kind of clever.

They aren't always there - only when certain movies come out. I believe "The Mist" was the latest one. Before that may have been "1408". It's still annoying on those few occasions when they use them.

PC Magazine uses them too, but theirs creep down the page as you scroll down so you can't get away from them.


Well, "Spin City" kind of did this with "Sportsnight" at one point. MJF turned the show on and that was the lead in to Sportsnight. It's not as bad as what you mentioned, though, and it was actually kind of clever.

Those scrolling ones are annoying although I haven't seen them in awhile. If you don't already use it, you might try Ad Block Plus, it's free, it even get rid of the sidebar ads and the sponsored ad bar at the top of the Gmail page.

http://adblockplus.org/en/

Except each of those threee shows air on different networks.That was my point. NBC's upcoming lineup shows wall to wall reality crap.And the other networks will follow-suit given the lack of scripted offerings they have to offer.

BTW, is THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12476361#post12476361) part of "wall to wall reality crap"? (I think this shows the folly of stating unqualified generalizations. And that was just the first example I stumbled on in the recent news thread here.)

What the hell is the "Battle of the Choirs" bug doing there all the time? I just watched a recorded Conan O'Brien and it was there the entire time.. Man, they are getting annoying.

Maybe it's an experiment. I hope it fails.

A reality/game show about choirs (seriously, would anyone have predicted this kind of show a year ago) and NBC is pushing it like it is the next "Friends"
(no offense intended) - if the show tanks in the ratings, maybe NBC will reconsider.

Hideous. I am glad I get NBC free, otherwise I'd have to cancel it..

Next shows for NBC:
Mauling of the Men
Fighting of the Females
Chopping of the Children
Gorging of the Goats

What the hell is the "Battle of the Choirs" bug doing there all the time? I just watched a recorded Conan O'Brien and it was there the entire time.. Man, they are getting annoying.It was there during Deal or No Deal also. Not only is it in the bug but it also appears in BIG letters across the bottom of the screen when they come back from commercials. Plus the annoying pop-up animations for some new gladiators show.

It was there during Deal or No Deal also. Not only is it in the bug but it also appears in BIG letters across the bottom of the screen when they come back from commercials. Plus the annoying pop-up animations for some new gladiators show.

The bug bothers me more. Even with an LCD, I worry about those bright white letters sitting there all through a show. Should the plasma TV folks send their replacement bills to NBC?

It's now on during The Office.. I am almost tempted to not watch it.

Should be interesting to see the new bug they have running during "Battle of the Choirs"??
They have to have some kind of promo bug running during all the prime time shows nowadays... it's a law or something- isn't it???

Reminds me of one of my favorite Michael Keaton movies "The Paper" where at the daily strategy meeting of a seedy daily newspaper they're discussing the headline for the afternoon edition and someone suggests "Gotcha!" and the old newswoman quips... "yeah, God forbid we run a headline without an apostrophe after it".:D I think that's the future of network TV... God forbid they run a show without all kinds of on screen promos running during the program.

I was watching the SNL thing tonight, but the bug didn't disappear so I change to the NFL game and deleted the few minutes from the Tivo.

Hell, even Fox isn't stupid enough to run that crap about AI during programming.

NBC:Now relying on Broadcasting Choirs

One of the neat aspects of Closed Captioning is that in most cases they obscure those bugs. :)

Yes, the Chior bug that was on during the entire SNL show was rediculous.

I'll never watch your Chior show NBC! You listening?



I thought not. But I feel better for saying it.

NBC only has two shows left that I want to watch (Office and Scrubs), and when those are done, I'm gone for good. I think I'll just catch the last season of Scrubs on DVD (which is a Buena Vista product), just to irritate NBC. Of course, with the strike, there may not be anything left to watch.

-Reagan

I'll never watch your Chior show NBC! You listening?


x2

Any show that has to be advertised the way NBC is doing it, doesn't deserve to be watched. I remember MTV doing something similar a few years back with the Video Music Awards. In MTV's case, it was constant animation throughout the entire show where you couldn't ignore it. Never again would I watch a VMA.

I have a brand new plasma, so I refuse to watch NBC shows with the "Choir" bug for fear of burn in. Also because I find it obnoxious. I switched off "The Office" and "30 Rock" last night.

I hope George Thomson (Sp?) is reading this thread and is pointing it out to the "higher ups"

I have a brand new plasma, so I refuse to watch NBC shows with the "Choir" bug for fear of burn in. Also because I find it obnoxious. I switched off "The Office" and "30 Rock" last night.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/640/vlcsnap3505603xv4.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap3505603xv4.jpg)

That's nothing. Look at how they ruined It's a Wonderful Life.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/640/vlcsnap3505603xv4.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap3505603xv4.jpg)

That's nothing. Look at how they ruined It's a Wonderful Life.Unbelievable! I just checked my recording of IAWL from last night and saw this crap. I just deleted it. I am so pissed I can't believe it. There's one showing and it's now a complete waste. Screw NBC. They can go to straight to fricking hell.


ron

+1000

This is beyond ridiculous. Tried to watch "30 Rock," and it felt like someone was standing off to the side pointing a flashlight at my eyes. I had to keep purposely trying NOT to look at it. I'm off to the store to get a piece of black cardboard, and will secure to that corner of the screen. Better to just black out part of the screen than be subjected to that.

Tried to watch "30 Rock," and it felt like someone was standing off to the side pointing a flashlight at my eyes.
It's funny, because TNT was running a "Closer" animation that actually DID shine a flashlight in your eyes.... :mad:

+1000

This is beyond ridiculous. Tried to watch "30 Rock," and it felt like someone was standing off to the side pointing a flashlight at my eyes. I had to keep purposely trying NOT to look at it. I'm off to the store to get a piece of black cardboard, and will secure to that corner of the screen. Better to just black out part of the screen than be subjected to that.

Great idea:-) LOL

That bug is so bright it might burn through the cardboard.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/640/vlcsnap3505603xv4.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap3505603xv4.jpg)

That's nothing. Look at how they ruined It's a Wonderful Life.

That's disgusting, putting a bright multi-color bug on a black and white film, what idiots, NBC has completely thrown the idea of class out the window.

I wonder if this is the effect of NBC's B.S.*?

(*Ben Silverman)

I Tivo'd the SNL thing tonight because I thought it was different than a couple of nights ago. Saw that big ass bug, deleted the recording.

Hideous. I am glad I get NBC free, otherwise I'd have to cancel it..

That's a good one :)

I was watching the tonight show on NBC right now and hoping the giant logo was gone, because battle of the choirs was over, and guess what it's back!!!
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8453/damnyounbcxw8.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=damnyounbcxw8.jpg)

Now it says "BIGGEST LOSER FINALE Tomorrow 9/8c"

GAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is getting BAD.

NBC is the BIGGEST LOSER. Plain and Simple.

I was watching the tonight show on NBC right now and hoping the giant logo was gone, because battle of the choirs was over, and guess what it's back!!!
Now it says "BIGGEST LOSER FINALE Tomorrow 9/8c"

GAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I was wondering if they would replace it during Journeyman as well.

Nope. Different show, same old crap. Plus the added bonus of pop-ups for Apprentice - Scraping the Barrel Edition.

I'm almost going to miss what they'll be doing for American Gladiators by not watching NBC. They'll probably have one of them run on and punch a hole through the screen.

They'll be beating the audience to it.

NBC was the pioneer in broadcasting radio, TV, and color. Now it's the pioneer in broadcasting's demise. Kinda sad :(

"BIGGEST LOSER FINALE Tomorrow 9/8c"
Why does it have to be so damned BRIGHT! It spoiled Journeyman last night. It would be much less annoying if they would dull it down a bit. Anyone have any thoughts as to just how bright the White lettering is relative to the brightest whites in a typical program?

So did anyone watch Clash of the Choirs last night?

No. Was IT contaminated with the large, bright white promo bug as well?

So did anyone watch Clash of the Choirs last night?
I didn't receive any bribe money from NBC, so....no.

"BIGGEST LOSER FINALE Tomorrow 9/8c"
Why does it have to be so damned BRIGHT! It spoiled Journeyman last night. It would be much less annoying if they would dull it down a bit. Anyone have any thoughts as to just how bright the White lettering is relative to the brightest whites in a typical program?
Apparently whoever designs those things doesn't realize that 255 levels of brightness is outside the color space of normal TV. I'm surprised it doesn't break up on the screen.

No. Was IT contaminated with the large, bright white promo bug as well?
That's what I was wondering too. I didn't even change the channel to the program.

"BIGGEST LOSER FINALE Tomorrow 9/8c"
Why does it have to be so damned BRIGHT! It spoiled Journeyman last night. It would be much less annoying if they would dull it down a bit. Anyone have any thoughts as to just how bright the White lettering is relative to the brightest whites in a typical program?

Besides going back to the 80s for their television schedules it seems their media department is also from the 80s. Back before networks realized that having a bright white fixed image 24 hours a day on screen tends to ruin the televisions of people watching.

I just dropped a letter to the 2 individuals noted on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread that I was ceasing my viewership of NBC Universal Channels, you should too, all of ya. :)

I'm in a different boat here, I think. I'm willing to trade off watching 20+ minutes per hour of commercials for a few screen nightmares.

Fact is, DVR's, Tivo's and such with the 30 second skip have brought this on.

I'm in a different boat here, I think. I'm willing to trade off watching 20+ minutes per hour of commercials for a few screen nightmares.

Fact is, DVR's, Tivo's and such with the 30 second skip have brought this on.

Irrelevant. NBC have multiple opportunities to promo their own stuff. Promos are probably the only part of ads that people see due to their bookend location.

The billboard problems of NBC, TNT et al, have nothing to do with third party commercial advertising. Even if they get you to watch one of their shows you'll still be skipping the commercials.

I'm in a different boat here, I think. I'm willing to trade off watching 20+ minutes per hour of commercials for a few screen nightmares.
That's all well and good if they actually reduce the number of commercials in breaks. The problem is, every season they add more. TV shows have gone from 52 minutes all the way down to a norm of 41.5 minutes. Some shows barely make 38 minutes.

Fact is, DVR's, Tivo's and such with the 30 second skip have brought this on.
That's what the networks keep saying, but there are three issues with that:

1) A lot of people who have DVRs still watch shows live. They don't actually time-shift all that much. Any time shifting they do is mostly because they want to record one show while watching another one live. It's only use geeks that are heavily into time shifting.

2) I find I watch more commercials having a 30 second skip than I ever watched before. How can that be? Simple. Before I had that ability, I would walk out of the room during breaks. I never saw the commercials at all. With a thirty second skip, I tend to see glimpses of ads and sometimes I go "what was that?" and go back and watch the ads. Further, I tend to actually go back and watch ad campaigns I previously found clever, such as the new Apple ads.

3) Most of the on screen stuff is promo material for shows that have little to do with the show I'm watching. That's hardly a way to find your audience. They aren't revenue generating ads, nor do they generate future revenue by making me watch ads during the shows they are promoting. If I don't watch ads during the breaks, I won't see them in the show being promoted any more than I will in the show the promotion runs in.

What it comes down to is the networks and advertisers need to find ways to make us want to stop and watch the breaks, not find ways to make us see ads within the show. They need to come up with ads that are clever and make us stop and watch rather than the usual generic rubbish that qualifies as an ad.

Take a cue from BBC America where they run "behind the scenes segments" during the breaks for Torchwood. Lost did this this at one point with the Hanso Foundation ad during one show. Pull a Law and Order and vary whether the show begins right out of the opening credits or goes to break. Finally, find more sponsors that are willing to put up more money to be the primary sponsor, such as when the extended Ford commercial ran before the commercial-free episode of 24 at one point.

All this current business is laziness on the part of the networks and advertisers and will serve only to doom broadcast TV.

I'm in a different boat here, I think. I'm willing to trade off watching 20+ minutes per hour of commercials for a few screen nightmares.

Fact is, DVR's, Tivo's and such with the 30 second skip have brought this on.
So you are in favor of bugs burning permanent images in your screen? Call me crazy but I'm not.

I don't use a 30 second skip during commercials, I FF thru them when watching our Tivo. However if I see a commercial that catches my eye I will rewind it. Not to mention since I have to pay attention to when the show re-starts so I will see the main advertisers.

If they are so worried about it why don't they change the length of the commercial breaks? Is 30 seconds a mandatory time for commercials?

Shoosh! They might get bright ideas. Oh wait, they aren't capable of anything "bright."

I believe in the fact that networks had the way to tie you in all the way to the commercial. You know, like.. QUALITY programming.. They would go to a cliffhanger to get you to watch that crap on the commercials then hang you over to watch the rest of the show.

I am not a novice at marketing but not an expert. Take what that demographic is preferring and run with it. If there was a Benz' in the movie and they regularly watch that program, get Benz' to advertise. You don't need to advertise a benz in the bug.

I'm in a different boat here, I think. I'm willing to trade off watching 20+ minutes per hour of commercials for a few screen nightmares.

Fact is, DVR's, Tivo's and such with the 30 second skip have brought this on.Yes, you're right. The more we find ways to avoid advertising, the more insidiously advertising will be woven into television, in ways that we cannot skip it.

The billboard problems of NBC, TNT et al, have nothing to do with third party commercial advertising. You're mistaken. They're providing in the technique, which will soon be turned to third-party commercial applications. We've already seen the beginning of this with the advertising of the Bourne Ultimatum DVD last week.

That's all well and good if they actually reduce the number of commercials in breaks. The problem is, every season they add more. TV shows have gone from 52 minutes all the way down to a norm of 41.5 minutes. Some shows barely make 38 minutes. That decline is a natural reaction to viewer behaviors. It is a reflection of what enough viewers will sit through, if unable to skip commercials, before they'd elect to simply stop watching television.

1) A lot of people who have DVRs still watch shows live.But a lot of people don't, and that number is increasing. Beyond that, the billboards provide additional advertising (i.e., revenue-generating) opportunities.

What it comes down to is the networks and advertisers need to find ways to make us want to stop and watch the breaksMaybe, maybe not. There isn't any specific reason why one approach is innately better than the other, from their perspective. It depends on which approach sells better to advertisers.

So you are in favor of bugs burning permanent images in your screen?Be careful: You're as-good-as advocating animated bugs.

Regardless, a lot of us have DLPs, so burn-in isn't a concern.

You're mistaken. They're providing in the technique, which will soon be turned to third-party commercial applications. We've already seen the beginning of this with the advertising of the Bourne Ultimatum DVD last week.
What's up with the Bourne DVD?

You're mistaken. They're providing in the technique, which will soon be turned to third-party commercial applications. We've already seen the beginning of this with the advertising of the Bourne Ultimatum DVD last week.

Kinda, sorta, maybe...Bourne Ultimatum is a Universal Studios release, parent company being NBC/Universal. It wouldn't surprise me to see some GE products advertised eventually. GE, of course being the top of the corporate ladder of NBC/Uni.

How about a peacock in a toaster oven bug?

A microwave would be more fun.

I have succeeded in training myself to largely ignore the popups that appear during programming, although I admit that if the popup is big enough (think promos for The Closer on TNT) or the accompanying sound effects loud enough (think Damages on FX), I fail and notice them, despite my best efforts not to.

I hate, hate, hate interminable commercial interruptions. That is why I have been using DVRs since 2000. Popups, bad as they are, strike me as superior to frequent four minute interruptions of shows for commercials. Popups are irritating but at least they do not completely interrupt the flow of a show. Further, putting up with stuff like that is why network TV programming is free for the viewer. Maybe the technology will catch up and we can one day avoid popups just as we can avoid commercials. Alas, not yet, not yet.

If I decided to stop watching shows on networks that ran popups, doing so would eliminate NBC, TNT, FX, A&E, and probably others that I can’t recall at the moment. That’s not happening. What is it about noses, spite, and faces? :)

Don’t misunderstand, my point. I sympathize with the anger and frustration that the popup epidemic has generated but I believe reacting to it with letters to the networks is akin to tilting at windmills. I suggest that every network’s executives understand that most of us will live with this stuff and that angry missives from the few who swear they will boycott a network until popups stop elicit only yawns.

What's up with the Bourne DVD?It was advertised via billboard during several NBC dramas last week.

It was advertised via billboard during several NBC dramas last week.
Not true - you can actually occasionally see around billboards. This was the friggin' Berlin Wall.... :eek:

Yeah, but first someone has to figure out how to block those Flash ads that cover everything and don't have a "close" button until the whole animation runs. Pay a visit to the "new and improved" IMDB to see the future of "in your face" advertising...as if an ad running around the entire border of the page wasn't enough... :mad:

too links i think you might like

mozilla.org

noscript.net
;)

james

too links i think you might like

mozilla.org

noscript.net
;)

james

I already use Firefox and No Script is a pain in the butt. It blocks everything you don't expressly allow. As a sideline webmaster for several small sites, I need to be able to see the sites in a naked form when I'm testing them. Putting those sites in the "allowed" list doesn't give me a true picture as to whether everything is working. No Script is like using a hammer to open a soda bottle when simply twisting off the cap works better. It's an impractical solution for an internet that contains increasingly dynamic web pages.

I already use Firefox and No Script is a pain in the butt. It blocks everything you don't expressly allow. As a sideline webmaster for several small sites, I need to be able to see the sites in a naked form when I'm testing them. Putting those sites in the "allowed" list doesn't give me a true picture as to whether everything is working. No Script is like using a hammer to open a soda bottle when simply twisting off the cap works better. It's an impractical solution for an internet that contains increasingly dynamic web pages.

you can allow all when your testing, otherwise i find the pay out worth the few days of allowing sites i use :D , let me know if you find a better way tho :confused:

james

Sometimes when this happens our affiliate gets stuck in SD widescreen mode for 20-30 minutes.

2 thumbs down.

The pop-ups no longer bother me very much, either; I'd become so inured to the pop-ups on TNT during The Closer (one of 3 or 4 most favorite shows) that I hadn't noticed that NBC had started using them at all. The only time a pop-up really bothered me was when they added a sound-effect mixed into the program's soundtrack--that was stepping over the line, but I haven't seen it happen again.

Pop-ups accomplish two things--they're ads that can't be skipped without skipping part of the program, nor can they be edited out when archiving recorded programming. When people rip broadcast and cable television and post it on the Internet for download, some ads will survive. This increases the value of commercial DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray season sets and online download services like Amazon Unbox and XBL Video Marketplace, since they'll be the only way to watch your favorite programming without any advertisement.

let me know if you find a better way tho :confused:
I prefer to avoid using sites that are especially annoying about these things. If it's a site that didn't used to, but starts, I complain to the site and I let the company that makes the product know I won't buy their product if they allow that sort of thing.

It may not help, but if we simply block the stuff, either a) the advertisers and distributers never hear complaints from us and assume it's okay or b) they find more ways to get around our attempts to avoid them.

Remember when nearly every site used pop-ups or pop-unders? Those have nearly gone away in favor of simple banner and side bar ads due to people making their feelings known. However, the new Flash ad thing is starting to become the new pop-up. We need to make it clear that we won't stand for it any more than we'll tolerate telemarketers being in our faces.

The pop-ups no longer bother me very much, either; I'd become so inured to the pop-ups on TNT during The Closer (one of 3 or 4 most favorite shows) that I hadn't noticed that NBC had started using them at all. The only time a pop-up really bothered me was when they added a sound-effect mixed into the program's soundtrack--that was stepping over the line, but I haven't seen it happen again.

Me either.. infact they never bothered me that much.


Pop-ups accomplish two things--they're ads that can't be skipped without skipping part of the program, nor can they be edited out when archiving recorded programming. When people rip broadcast and cable television and post it on the Internet for download, some ads will survive.

That's why they are never going away, and will only continue to increase.

I refuse to watch any program that makes excessive use of these inexcusable distractions.

I had heard good things about the shield so I gave it a try. The pop ups with audio annoyed me so much I never watched another episode.

Me either.. infact they never bothered me that much.

by adopting that attitude it makes any other aspect that is detrimental to the artistic presentation of a movie or TV show totally irrelevant as well. You can't complain about MPEG artifacts, HD-lite or lack of OAR presentation.

If you are willing to let something bounce and run across the screen in the middle of the show then you are basically willing to accept the poor treatment of any show or movie on the air. Cropping the aspect to 16:9 or a few frames of blocking are inconsequential to something that actually covers part of the image and animates.

Why go to the effort of researching and buying gear and calibrating it with the intention of achieving the best quality and preserving the intent of the film makers, if you sit back and just watch networks sabotage the effort?

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5467/vlcsnap3943798cj8.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap3943798cj8.jpg)

This really is horrible.

I guess they figured out that the other one go covered up by closed captioning

bWhy go to the effort of researching and buying gear and calibrating it with the intention of achieving the best quality and preserving the intent of the film makers, if you sit back and just watch networks sabotage the effort?

Exactly. That is why Sci-Fi Channel lost me as a viewer and now why NBC is losing me as a viewer. I've sent Sci-Fi an e-mail when they started their crap and I've recently sent an e-mail to NBC regarding their crap and their loss of my eyeballs.

Not have I only sent them e-mail, I've blasted both The CW and NBC via my website regarding this blatant disregard/contempt of their viewers:

http://vidiot.com/TVShows/

I do not mince words. I call it as I see it and I hate what I am seeing.

This is all because we didn't stand up to the "watermark" network logo thing (which I used to think was the pinnacle of annoyingness). Now they're just pushing their luck. Maybe someone more ambitious than me could start a "boycott this show" group. I know I was interested in Phenomemon when I first heard about it, but after weeks of that stupid promo I decided not to just based on principle.

Speak for yourself. I've been bitching about the damn bug since it started. And I've been bitching publically on my website, which has been around for over 10 years.

Just saw for the first time, a lower banner - about 25% of the screen - for a local car dealer ad put up during one of our affiliates' syndicated early evening programming. With motion video included.

That is when you call the local dealership's owner and inform that person that you will no longer consider purchasing any vehicles from that dealership and that you will suggest that your friends/family purchase elsewhere as well.

I agree. Despite the fact that many people don't like the practice, now three major media companies are doing this regularly, and others are doing it occasionally. The trend is in the direction you've alluded to: that this will be the standard going forward.

Who is the third? Only NBC and The CW started this practice at the start of the 2007-2008 season.

Our NBC affiliate just started HD local news broadcast but, for the week leading up to the switch the affiliate added there own pop ups after the national NBC ones advertising this HD new broadcast. Problem is they covered up some subtitles during an episode of Heroes and a few times even covered up the national NBC pop ups. Since Mojo has started airing Heroes I have an alternative.

This short season I was lucky enough to be able to get Heroes completely clean, including real closing credits and music. Not so lucky with the other NBC programming :mad:

NBC has lost me as a viewer.

Apparently whoever designs those things doesn't realize that 255 levels of brightness is outside the color space of normal TV.

It is? News to me. White has zero color info and all luminance info.

Not have I only sent them e-mail, I've blasted both The CW and NBC via my website regarding this blatant disregard/contempt of their viewersIt all comes back to the push and pull of the business. Y'know? Maybe there isn't any way of having television be profitable enough to be a worthwhile investment for investors anymore. Remember that, in these days of E-Trade and huge mutual funds, every dollar of investment has to compete with every other possible opportunity for investing that dollar. If I can make more money investing in pharmaceuticals, why would I put my money into media? And unfortunately, too few of the viewers are driven to contribute to the profits of media companies by what some folks might consider "quality" (and it sure doesn't help that different folks consider different things to be "quality").

So don't interpret it as contempt for viewers: Consider it respect for investors.

Who is the third? Only NBC and The CW started this practice at the start of the 2007-2008 season.They are #3 and I suppose #4 (since I wasn't counting The CW, when I mentioned that NBC Universal was the third). The first two were Turner Networks and A&E Television Networks.

Why go to the effort of researching and buying gear and calibrating it with the intention of achieving the best quality and preserving the intent of the film makers, if you sit back and just watch networks sabotage the effort?I certainly didn't make my investment in HT equipment with the anticipation that the networks would ever stop trying to make me watch ads, nor did I expect the biggest bang for my buck (i.e., the most pristine, unadulterated picture and sound) to be delivered via broadcast TV. No matter what the networks do, I can and do buy and rent high definition media on disc and via occasional network download which is devoid of advertisement (except for the occasional pointed product placement :rolleyes:). Wait long enough and you can buy all your favorite broadcast programs with no advertising inserted.

The fact is that getting you to watch advertisements is the only financial motivation that the broadcasters have for producing and presenting the programming that we all love so much. TiVo is selling second-by-second information about just when and how time-shifted television is being watched (on TiVos, at least) and just how much of the interstitial advertisement is getting fast-forwarded through. I'm certain that the cable providers will augment their leased DVR software to collect the same kind of information, if they haven't already. DVRs are becoming too common for them not to look for other ways to make you look at the ads.

If you refuse to watch television with ads overlayed, I'm sure that's fine with them. If you really mind, you're probably one of the many people who skip the interstitial ads one way or another, and your watching isn't doing them (the broadcasters) any good at all. As Heinlein said, TANSTAAFL.

That's really it in a nutshell. That one message should be a locked sticky at the top of the forum! :)

It is? News to me. White has zero color info and all luminance info.
Luminance is a component of the color space. You can't have chroma without luminance. They both effect each other. Color is merely the increase of one portion of the signal and the reduction of another.

My new hero, MrVideo! Brandon Tartikoff (RIP) is spinning in his grave at what his network is doing now. I wish the people who produce shows on NBC, TNT, CW, FX would protest about ads overlaying their programs.

Who is the third? Only NBC and The CW started this practice at the start of the 2007-2008 season.
FOX has started doing it on some of their non-HD shows. Their bugs are nearly as big as TNT's.

The fact is that getting you to watch advertisements is the only financial motivation that the broadcasters have for producing and presenting the programming that we all love so much. TiVo is selling second-by-second information about just when and how time-shifted television is being watched (on TiVos, at least) and just how much of the interstitial advertisement is getting fast-forwarded through. I'm certain that the cable providers will augment their leased DVR software to collect the same kind of information, if they haven't already. DVRs are becoming too common for them not to look for other ways to make you look at the ads.
I disagree with this 100% because it is not like they are advertising McDonald's or other products in these ads so, these lower thirds are not helping any of the advertisers you alluded to. They are using these ads to advertise upcoming shows or, worst yet, telling you what show you are currently watching. If I'm watching Journeyman, why do I need a big lower third saying "On now Journeyman." They are self promoting and not making any money off those lower third ads. NBC's will not be bothering me any more because I'm not going to watch NBC anymore.

They are using these ads to advertise upcoming shows or, worst yet, telling you what show you are currently watching.As well as hawking DVDs for sale in stores.

They are ... not making any money off those lower third ads. Except that they ARE making money off those billboard ads now, and you'll see them doing so more often as the practice becomes more commonplace.

NBC's will not be bothering me any more because I'm not going to watch NBC anymore.You shouldn't spite yourself though. If the programming on NBC is worth the "cost", then you should watch the programming. If you have sacred cows, you'll end up sub-optimizing your own enjoyment.

I hear some folks are spending their hard-earned money to send Rice-a-Roni to NBC, because they LOVE some of their programming so much. Surely those folks would be more than happy to deal with some billboard ads, if it meant their favorite show stays on the air.

I hate to get into this fray; however, having been in the production end of the business for many years, there are at least a couple of other reasons for those da__ed ad bugs.

One of the big reasons you see them promoting the current show is channel surfing. They are trying to identify the on-going program to those folks who are simply surfing by, hoping they'll stop and try it out. Their thinking is similar when promoting other shows as at least 50% of the viewers don't really go thru the complete channel line-up/schedule...and they are trying to put a thought in their mind to "check this one out."

Now...on the other hand...it is absolutely a "slippery slope", and they're all sliding down, pulling us along. Turner's success at not completely p_s_ing off every viewer has taught others that they can get away with the same B.S. It's not pretty, it's not good for those of us really trying to concentrate on a good program, but...it is working.

I'm not terribly offended by the static bugs, but those full motion ones...such as those for The Closer and Saving Grace.....talk about stretching a "good thing" to its breaking point! Pretty soon, some promotional genius at NBC will recall the early days of color TV and we'll see the bugs introduced by an animated peacock. Opps...don't want to give them any ideas..... My suspicion is that DVR's have helped lead us down this path...as you can't FF past these promos like regular spots, without skipping programming.

Best holiday regards to all who have the common sense to recognize good programs and broadcasting practices.

One of the big reasons you see them promoting the current show is channel surfing. They are trying to identify the on-going program to those folks who are simply surfing by, hoping they'll stop and try it out. Their thinking is similar when promoting other shows as at least 50% of the viewers don't really go thru the complete channel line-up/schedule...and they are trying to put a thought in their mind to "check this one out."
The problem with that is, other than analog OTA and analog cable, the TV tells you not only what channel you're on, but what program is on. My TV even does this for digital OTA. In fact, it also tells me the rating, meaning those excessively huge black boxes are becoming unnecessary.

The problem with that is, other than analog OTA and analog cable, the TV tells you not only what channel you're on, but what program is on. My TV even does this for digital OTA. In fact, it also tells me the rating, meaning those excessively huge black boxes are becoming unnecessary.I think that the appearance of those ratings icons for the first 15 seconds of every program (once every half-hour for programs longer than a half-hour) is mandated by FCC rules.

So don't interpret it as contempt for viewers: Consider it respect for investors.

Sorry, but to me it is still contempt of the viewers. You can respect the investors by not pissing off your customers.

Sorry, but to me it is still contempt of the viewers. You can respect the investors by not pissing off your customers.

And, without customers, your investors will will be pissed.

They are #3 and I suppose #4 (since I wasn't counting The CW, when I mentioned that NBC Universal was the third). The first two were Turner Networks and A&E Television Networks.

Ah, OK. I was only thinking OTA media. I don't have cable or a pizza-pan dish. I only have OTA and my two BUDs.

I was only going to go pizza-pan HD when there really was a lot of HD AND I had to means to capture the program I was interested in viewing, on my computer. I think I know of the means in which to get the program onto my computer. With D* having lots of HD now, in true 1920x1080i/1280x720p (instead of HD-lite, I was thinking about it.

But, what is stopping me is that the channels I am interested in are adding these stupid snipes and constant textual bugs. So far HDNet has resisted, but for how long? Sci-Fi cluttered their screen as soon as they went HD. So, for now I am saving my money.

One of the big reasons you see them promoting the current show is channel surfing. They are trying to identify the on-going program to those folks who are simply surfing by, hoping they'll stop and try it out. Their thinking is similar when promoting other shows as at least 50% of the viewers don't really go thru the complete channel line-up/schedule...and they are trying to put a thought in their mind to "check this one out."What is the likelihood that a channel surfer would hit the current program at the exact same time the "now showing" banner is there (for a few seconds)? The only way to achieve this would be to have the "now showing" banner displayed all the time. If I want to know whats on another a channel I popup the (DirecTivo) guide. Same if I want to know whats on next (though I usually already know whats on next as a result of looking at the guide).

The problem with that is, other than analog OTA and analog cable, the TV tells you not only what channel you're on, but what program is on. My TV even does this for digital OTA. In fact, it also tells me the rating, meaning those excessively huge black boxes are becoming unnecessary.

Actually it is possible to identify the program on analog as well. The call letters, program title and rating can all be sent via xds along with the closed caption data.

Luminance is a component of the color space. You can't have chroma without luminance. They both effect each other. Color is merely the increase of one portion of the signal and the reduction of another.

Yes, but you are talking about the old NTSC color television. When there is lack of color, which is black going to 100% white, there is zero color subcarrier modulation. The TV just turns on all three colors equally. No color gamma to worry about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that actually doing 100% white is a good thing. Having a high component of white at a high modulation, like small white text on a dark background, can result in "buzzing" on older sets, as the high frequency component gets into the audio subcarrier. But that hasn't been a problem with new technology NTSC sets in a long time.

100% white is not illegal, just frowned upon.

I just looked at a Journeyman image that I captured and looked at the level values of the white in the text and the bug. Nothing is over the standard white level of 235. The text white is actually between 182 and 188. The santa hat is 234 and the peacock is 235. All within accepted NTSC modulation levels.

So, I don't know where the 100% white came from, since it certainly isn't there.

One of the big reasons you see them promoting the current show is channel surfing. They are trying to identify the on-going program to those folks who are simply surfing by, hoping they'll stop and try it out. Their thinking is similar when promoting other shows as at least 50% of the viewers don't really go thru the complete channel line-up/schedule...and they are trying to put a thought in their mind to "check this one out."

Sorry, but that is a load of crap. Those stupid "you are now watching" snipes are only on for a few seconds. The odds of someone landing on that damn snipe while channel surfing is slim-to-none.

Sorry, but that is a load of crap. Those stupid "you are now watching" snipes are only on for a few seconds. The odds of someone landing on that damn snipe while channel surfing is slim-to-none.People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.

Yes, but you are talking about the old NTSC color television. When there is lack of color, which is black going to 100% white, there is zero color subcarrier modulation. The TV just turns on all three colors equally. No color gamma to worry about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that actually doing 100% white is a good thing. Having a high component of white at a high modulation, like small white text on a dark background, can result in "buzzing" on older sets, as the high frequency component gets into the audio subcarrier. But that hasn't been a problem with new technology NTSC sets in a long time.

100% white is not illegal, just frowned upon.

I just looked at a Journeyman image that I captured and looked at the level values of the white in the text and the bug. Nothing is over the standard white level of 235. The text white is actually between 182 and 188. The santa hat is 234 and the peacock is 235. All within accepted NTSC modulation levels.

So, I don't know where the 100% white came from, since it certainly isn't there.
Here's the thing:

I didn't break out the vector scope to measure it. My original comment was meant to be sarcastic, and not a technical assessment. I could care less what the actual values are - it was flipping white off the scale compared to the video around it. That was my point. It was so bright, it was ANNOYING and DISTRACTING.

Likewise, just because the audio in ads isn't registering above proper levels, doesn't mean the lack of contrast in the audio doesn't make it SEEM louder compared to the greater contrast in the TV program.

In a sense, the bug was like an ad yelling at you - without the audio.

People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.
People who channel surf are not the intended viewership. They never stay on a single channel. You want warm bodies that will commit to a show and stay there long enough to register a usable rating.

People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.

Might. But, as pointed out by others, today's cable and satellite boxes tell you what show you are watching when you surf to it. The stupid frakin' snipe is useless.

I didn't break out the vector scope to measure it. My original comment was meant to be sarcastic, and not a technical assessment. I could care less what the actual values are - it was flipping white off the scale compared to the video around it. That was my point. It was so bright, it was ANNOYING and DISTRACTING.

Sorry, missed the sarcasm. I only caught the technical part. Otherwise I totally agree with you.

Likewise, just because the audio in ads isn't registering above proper levels, doesn't mean the lack of contrast in the audio doesn't make it SEEM louder compared to the greater contrast in the TV program.

Ya, you just gotta love audio compression - NOT! Because I capture the show I want to see on my computer and then edit out the commercial breaks, I never hear the audio these days. There are exceptions for the Mac vs Windblows ads. Those are extremely funny and don't use audio compression to "yell" at you. I hate Windblows and love those ads, which are right on the mark.

In a sense, the bug was like an ad yelling at you - without the audio.

I like that. Well said.

People who channel surf are not the intended viewership. They never stay on a single channel. You want warm bodies that will commit to a show and stay there long enough to register a usable rating.

And only then if they are part of one of the few households that are part of the Nielsen ratings stable.

Ratings are another thorn in my side. Even though Nielsen says that the math models statistically say that their sample is good enough, I say bull-crap. To me, the only good sample is a 100% sample. But that is never going to happen.

Might. But, as pointed out by others, today's cable and satellite boxes tell you what show you are watching when you surf to it. The stupid frakin' snipe is useless.Maybe, if you're using a cable or satellite box (or a television capable of displaying PSIP data or whatever data was encoded in the VBI on analog channels, if either is properly encoded in the signal). Maybe your hypothetical channel surfer doesn't think to check this--if he or she even knows how--before he or she loses interest and moves on, which will certainly happen at the next interstitial ad (thinking, "hmmm, that was an interesting scene of whatever it was"). Obviously these things are not helpful to everyone but there's a chance that it might help some. And they're not really trying to "help" so much as "seduce" :).

If these things really bother you, then stop watching the broadcasters who use them and make sure that you tell them that you're stopping watching and why. Maybe they'll take notice and change. I don't think that it bothers many people (if it did, you'd think that TNT--who I believe have been doing it longest--would have gotten enough complaints to stop by now), so I think it's more likely that we'll see more of it, particularly more brief overlay product ads. It's perfect for low-budget local advertisers who can't easily afford to produce filmed interstitial ads.

I just fast-forwarded through a couple of programs that I watched yesterday and was shocked by how much of that stuff was inserted--I don't even notice any of it anymore. (I've been rewatching the start of the season of Friday Night Lights and watched the first four episodes). Like I said, I'm not watching broadcast television expecting the highest quality A/V experience, and even with overlay ads, network ID bugs and occasional TV ratings icons, the quality of the experience has been improved by a order of magnitude with HD video and surround sound. Most of my favorite shows are on national over-the-air broadcast TV, and they're certainly worth every penny that I pay for them.

Maybe your hypothetical channel surfer doesn't think to check this.

No checking necessary. It is automatic. You change the channel, the box displays on the screen what it is you just switched to, and after a few seconds, goes away.

If these things really bother you, then stop watching the broadcasters who use them and make sure that you tell them that you're stopping watching and why.

I've done just that and have posted my frustration on my web site.

Sorry, but to me it is still contempt of the viewers. You can respect the investors by not pissing off your customers.Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. My point is that contempt requires intent, and I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that there is absolutely no intent to show contempt towards viewers. They simply are balancing the positives and negatives, and making the best decision with regard to their actual obligations.

But, what is stopping me is that the channels I am interested in are adding these stupid snipes and constant textual bugs. So far HDNet has resisted, but for how long? I don't remember who said it, but I'm pretty sure someone said it earlier in this thread: Going forward, things will go in only one direction, and that is that generally only way to get high quality HD without bugs is via HD-DVD or bluRay. Unless you're paying $7.99 for a movie via Pay Per View, you're not going to have pristine unadulterated content.

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. My point is that contempt requires intent, and I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that there is absolutely no intent to show contempt towards viewers. They simply are balancing the positives and negatives, and making the best decision with regard to their actual obligations.

I wish I could find the link to the newspaper article (I think it was the New York TImes) where a network executive was specifically asked about the snipes and how viewers do not like them. The basic response was that they know they are not liked and are willing to take the flack for using them.

If that isn't contempt, I don't know what it.

I wish you could find the link. I bet if you do, I can explain to you how it isn't contempt but rather acknowledgment and even, to some extent, respect. I think the difference is that I tend to look at it from a perspective that has nothing to do with whether I like it or not (I don't). Rather, I try to understand what the other person (in this case, the executive) is saying, in the context of what his/her objectives and obligations are. That way, something I don't like can end up being something that is still not necessarily a good thing, but not a personal insult to me.

What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers :D.

I don't remember who said it, but I'm pretty sure someone said it earlier in this thread: Going forward, things will go in only one direction, and that is that generally only way to get high quality HD without bugs is via HD-DVD or bluRay. Unless you're paying $7.99 for a movie via Pay Per View, you're not going to have pristine unadulterated content.

Unfortunately that is going to be a potential catch-22 situation. If viewers stop watching network TV, there won't be any ad $$$ to support program creation, other than the increase in lame reality shows. If the scripted dramas can't be made, then there won't be any clutter-free DVDs being released either.

It is all going to cascade upon itself sooner or later.

What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers :D.

No executive would be that stupid to come out and say that to the press. You have to read between the words.

Yea, it's very respectful to say you don't care what the viewers do or don't like.

I wish you could find the link.

I do not remember where I saw the story. I read so many things I do no remember if it was something I got via e-mail (from a mail list), a TVGuide posting, etc.

Obviously we have different takes on this situation. At least we both do not like the practice.

What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers :D.Exactly. I think it is really critical to separate what people are really saying from what would be easier to argue against.

Unfortunately that is going to be a potential catch-22 situation. If viewers stop watching network TV, there won't be any ad $$$ to support program creation, other than the increase in lame reality shows. If the scripted dramas can't be made, then there won't be any clutter-free DVDs being released either. It is all going to cascade upon itself sooner or later.One thing that often gets overlooked is that, sometimes, there simply isn't a viable business model, and indeed, sometimes conditions change that a viable business model dies, replaced by an environment where no viable business model exists for the same service. Commercial television can indeed be heading in that direction. Even though DVRs have had a pretty minimal impact so far, commercial avoidance is becoming a bigger issue. Let me be clearer about that: The viable business model for NBC, TNT, etc., is that the advertisements get people to buy things, and that makes it worthwhile to advertisers to pay for those advertisements. Those payments represent the only way networks can fulfill their obligations to their owners, i.e., it represents the viability of their business model.So back to commercial avoidance; I'm going to word this very explicitly. The specific words underlined are critically important: The less people buy things because of the commercials included in television shows, the crappier television will get, because there simply won't be the money there -- the viable business model -- to support quality television.

It isn't a matter of whether the commercials are seen or watched... it actually matters how much we buy things because of watching them. As the general public has gotten more jaded, becoming more dissatisfied with being "sold to", the more the quality of the television programs offered is being undercut. Note that this has nothing to do with snipes or bugs or billboards. Before we get back to that, we're already heading down the path towards crappier television. Indeed, to the extent these things get folks to buy more stuff (and despite your feeling to the contrary, they actually do), they're actually helping reverse that trend towards crappier television.

A new viable business model? How about a $2 fee for every 42 minute, commercial-free, bug-free, iron-clad DRM-protected episode you decide to watch? That is what I believe it will take. If the DRM isn't iron-clad, up that to $3. Without DRM, the whole model falls apart, i.e., the business model is not viable.

No executive would be that stupid to come out and say that to the press. You have to read between the words.Reading between the words means that you're creating the contempt for viewers, rather than the executive.

I do not remember where I saw the story.I'm going to assume that you made up the contempt until you can provide a reference. If you don't have the evidence, benefit of the doubt towards the person you're trying to condemn is warranted.

Obviously we have different takes on this situation. At least we both do not like the practice.It is important to understand, though, that what people "like" is irrelevant except when it comes to love and hobbies. In a business circumstance, what matters is behaviors -- what people actually do.

So far HDNet has resisted, but for how long?
They tried it, and then removed it after a few weeks of people complaining on here.

HDNet will probably be the last one to go. With respect to Mr. Cuban, AFAIC, HDNet won't have much going for it if they get rid of their high bit-rate and unadulterated presentation.

NBC's logo nonsense continues in 2008.

Now they are using a solid logo with the Olympic Rings below it.
The rings are so small they are vibrating on screen.

NBC is also still doing the spam text above the logo promoting other shows.

Does anyone have a link to where we can write NBC to complain about this?

I don't understand why a network with the fewest viewers to start with would want to annoy the people that still watching their channel with this horrible logo setup.

There is no reason in 2008 for any network to use a 100% solid bug logo.

Apparantly "transparent" is not in their vocabulary. There are some e-mail addresses for NBC marketing idiots in this thread. Let your local station know as well. I have not watched NBC except for football in the last month or so. What reality show crap are they promoting now?

Noticed BBC America (SD, I know) is plastering promos now on top of their logo, in addition to the name of the show in the lower left. Enough already.

Bugs are probably going to get worse as networks and stations drop their SD distribution. They may always put it in the safe 4:3 area to ensure that viewers with down converters see it. I could see NBC putting right in the center.

On the plus side...the writing above the bug (NBC) isn't as bright white as it used to be.
As for BBC America they've been one of the worst over-polluters of the screen for a long time now. Really obnoxious!

Ratings are another thorn in my side. Even though Nielsen says that the math models statistically say that their sample is good enough, I say bull-crap. To me, the only good sample is a 100% sample. But that is never going to happen.

Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.

Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.It's an extremely complex problem, which, with the ever increasing use of DVRs, is growing more complex by the day. As imperfect as the Nielsen ratings probably are, they're one of the few tools that the advertisers have for gauging the effectiveness of television as a medium for their business. Because of DVRs, new tools are becoming available to them. As I mentioned in a previous post, TiVo is selling second-by-second data about how people are using their products to watch television (see this (https://stopwatch.tivo.com/about.html)). With this information, they can see the delay between air-date and viewing, whether they zap the ads and which ads they actually stop and watch. I'm sure that the cable providers are adding similar data acquisition to their leased DVRs, if they haven't already.

Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.

You should to take a course in statistics. Aside from helping you understand this issue, it would help you better understand the world in general. I consider it one of the most useful courses I took.

You should to take a course in statistics. Aside from helping you understand this issue, it would help you better understand the world in general. I consider it one of the most useful courses I took.
In theory, you're right. However, this isn't like measuring the number of times a coin comes up heads. We're measuring an individuals viewing habits and programming interests. Basicly, you're trying to quantify taste. That's a very individual thing.

What people like can't be based on what other people like. There are so many reasons why a person from one demographic may like a show while another may hate it. To assume because I share a bunch of traits with someone else means I'll like the same types of programming is ridiculous.

To give an example: I have a co-worker who makes pretty much the same money as me, does the same job I do, works roughly the same hours and has many of the same interests. However, when I compare our viewing habits in Netflix Friends, we're at best 75% similar in our viewing tastes. That means 1 in 4 movies or shows we watch we disagree on. Those that we agree on, we're usually dead on, but it's that 1 in 4 where we are completely off - and we're really similar in our tastes.

By all rights, we should hit a lot more often. We read a lot of the same books, see a lot of the same movies, and even share some of the same hobbies. Yet, if he's being rated, a show he hates but I love may get cancelled. However, by the ratings system standards, I assume that should be considered an accurate rating.

The fact is, people are funny. What they like or don't like cannot be quantified based on a small sample. We have to be taken on our individual standings.

The DVR question aside, the biggest fallacy of the entire ratings/advertising rates process is the fact that the networks know when the "sweeps weeks" are, and load those dates with new episodes, key specials, etc. Who in their right mind would accept such flawed "research" as the basis for setting ad rates? I suspect that this entire practice, which is an accepted, on-going conspiracy between Nielson, the networks, and the major ad agencies, will be trashed within the next 3-4 years.

Now...as far as the actual ratings process, "spwace" is probably correct. From a statistical standpoint, the numbers should be close enough to be meaningful. The real question with regard especially to new programming is the fact that the networks want "instant gratification" and are not willing to let what are obviously good programs build their audiences. If this had been the case a decade or two ago, we wouldn't have seen many episodes of "Cheers" (and therefore...no "Frasier"), Seinfeld, etc. The other problem is changing time slots of some shows so often that viewers have trouble finding them...such as "Designing Women" (yes...some years ago, but still valid).

The DVR question aside, the biggest falicy of the entire ratings/advertising rates process is the fact that the networks know when the "sweeps weeks" are, and load those dates with new episodes, key specials, etc. Who in their right mind would accept such flawed "research" as the basis for setting ad rates? I suspect that this entire practice, which is an accepted, on-going conspiracy between Nielson, the networks, and the major ad agencies, will be trashed within the next 3-4 years.

Now...as far as the actual ratings process, "spwace" is probably correct. From a statistical standpoint, the numbers should be close enough to be meaningful. The real question with regard especially to new programming is the fact that the networks want "instant gratification" and are not willing to let what are obviously good programs build their audiences. If this had been the case a decade or two ago, we wouldn't have seen many episodes of "Cheers" (and therefore...no "Frasier"), Seinfeld, etc. The other problem is changing time slots of some shows so often that viewers have trouble finding them...such as "Designing Women" (yes...some years ago, but still valid).
Actually, the opposite of what you said in your first paragraph is precisely the reason for what you mentioned in the second: there is no "sweeps" period except for local news anymore. Ratings are continous now.

It used to a be, a show could get its legs leading up to that metered period, and it could be propped up by mini-series events, specials and big "ratings grabber" cliff-hanger episodes.

The problem is, the ratings clock starts ticking as soon as a show hits air and a network gets gunshy when they end up third or fourth right out of the gate. They don't care if a show could potentially find an audience and become a hit later - it's pulling down the ad value and, in return, the stock price NOW. This leads to a bunch of "sure thing", quick grab shows that will bolster the nightly rating, but serve no one, especially the audience.

In the end, the networks don't care what they put on the air as long as it's a certified instant hit and doesn't get them fined. Heck, for the right rating, they might even eat the fine.

NBC's logo nonsense continues in 2008.

Now they are using a solid logo with the Olympic Rings below it.
The rings are so small they are vibrating on screen.

NBC is also still doing the spam text above the logo promoting other shows.

Does anyone have a link to where we can write NBC to complain about this?

I don't understand why a network with the fewest viewers to start with would want to annoy the people that still watching their channel with this horrible logo setup.

There is no reason in 2008 for any network to use a 100% solid bug logo.Screw NBC. They can take their ridiculous opaque advertising bug and stick it where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. There's already more programming on than I have time to watch as it is. I have no need to watch programming with continuous, glaring and obnoxious advertising plastered over it. I decided I was done with them when I tried to watch It's a wonderful Life a week or so back. It's too bad because there are a few shows which I've been following which I will miss (only one for a long time though, ER since the beginning), but I have no desire to subject myself to this crap. If there's something I really feel the need to see I'll just do it later when it becomes available through disc. I've told them I'm out but I'm quite sure they couldn't care less what one irate "video purist" thinks. Too bad, so sad for me... I just wish all the JSP viewers felt the same way I do, as then maybe there would be a chance of them changing it. Que será será....


ron

Actually, the opposite of what you said in your first paragraph is precisely the reason for what you mentioned in the second: there is no "sweeps" period except for local news anymore. Ratings are continous now.

It used to a be, a show could get its legs leading up to that metered period, and it could be propped up by mini-series events, specials and big "ratings grabber" cliff-hanger episodes.

The problem is, the ratings clock starts ticking as soon as a show hits air and a network gets gunshy when they end up third or fourth right out of the gate. They don't care if a show could potentially find an audience and become a hit later - it's pulling down the ad value and, in return, the stock price NOW. This leads to a bunch of "sure thing", quick grab shows that will bolster the nightly rating, but serve no one, especially the audience.

In the end, the networks don't care what they put on the air as long as it's a certified instant hit and doesn't get them fined. Heck, for the right rating, they might even eat the fine.

Overnights are taken every day, but advertising rates are still based on ratings sweeps for both local stations and networks.

The DVR question aside, the biggest fallacy of the entire ratings/advertising rates process is the fact that the networks know when the "sweeps weeks" are, and load those dates with new episodes, key specials, etc. Who in their right mind would accept such flawed "research" as the basis for setting ad rates? I suspect that this entire practice, which is an accepted, on-going conspiracy between Nielson, the networks, and the major ad agencies, will be trashed within the next 3-4 years.

Now...as far as the actual ratings process, "spwace" is probably correct. From a statistical standpoint, the numbers should be close enough to be meaningful. The real question with regard especially to new programming is the fact that the networks want "instant gratification" and are not willing to let what are obviously good programs build their audiences. If this had been the case a decade or two ago, we wouldn't have seen many episodes of "Cheers" (and therefore...no "Frasier"), Seinfeld, etc. The other problem is changing time slots of some shows so often that viewers have trouble finding them...such as "Designing Women" (yes...some years ago, but still valid).

I agree, the ratings sweeps phony up the data for the rest of the year.

In theory, you're right. However, this isn't like measuring the number of times a coin comes up heads. We're measuring an individuals viewing habits and programming interests. Basicly, you're trying to quantify taste. That's a very individual thing.

What people like can't be based on what other people like. There are so many reasons why a person from one demographic may like a show while another may hate it. To assume because I share a bunch of traits with someone else means I'll like the same types of programming is ridiculous.

To give an example: I have a co-worker who makes pretty much the same money as me, does the same job I do, works roughly the same hours and has many of the same interests. However, when I compare our viewing habits in Netflix Friends, we're at best 75% similar in our viewing tastes. That means 1 in 4 movies or shows we watch we disagree on. Those that we agree on, we're usually dead on, but it's that 1 in 4 where we are completely off - and we're really similar in our tastes.

By all rights, we should hit a lot more often. We read a lot of the same books, see a lot of the same movies, and even share some of the same hobbies. Yet, if he's being rated, a show he hates but I love may get cancelled. However, by the ratings system standards, I assume that should be considered an accurate rating.

The fact is, people are funny. What they like or don't like cannot be quantified based on a small sample. We have to be taken on our individual standings.

All of this is irrelevant. That the sample is stratified by demographics has no bearing on its randomness. As long as the sample is random, it should be accurate. Polling data is very accurate of attitudes and trends, even election results. Television viewing isn't a special category that defies polling.

There are two legitimate critiques of Nielson sampling:

1) Whether Nielson has pulled together a genuinely random sample.
2) Whether, after becoming a Nielson family, knowing the power you hold changes your viewing habits.

These critiques are inter-related. A truely random sample won't be possible until every individual American has a DVR/STB that tracks their viewing. A statistician would then be able to select a purely random sample for every hour of television and none of the viewers would have a clue they were being polled. But that'll never happen.

These critiques are inter-related. A truely random sample won't be possible until every individual American has a DVR/STB that tracks their viewing. A statistician would then be able to select a purely random sample for every hour of television and none of the viewers would have a clue they were being polled. But that'll never happen.If everyone was using a monitored SDV, statistician wouldn't have to use random sampling; they could crunch all of the data.

But that would be unnecessarily time consuming given the accuracy of polling. Compiling data from 2000 STBs versus 300 million STBs.

On the plus side...the writing above the bug (NBC) isn't as bright white as it used to be.
On an even more plus side, I don't have to worry about seeing this bug because I don't watch NBC anymore. :D

On the plus side...the writing above the bug (NBC) isn't as bright white as it used to be.
It shouldn't be there at all. I wish the producers of these shows (like L&O's Dick Wolf) would put pressure on the network to stop this intrusive advertising.

NBC is the worst absolute worst, gee I wonder if Celebrity Apprentice starts tonight?

Screw NBC. They can take their ridiculous opaque advertising bug and stick it where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned......Now Ron, don't mince words, tell us how you really feel......

I e-mailed the following to the two gentlemen whose e-mail addresses appear on page 2 of this thread:

NBC Guys,

I am very disappointed that you have decided it's OK to place gigantic, obtrusive ads on screen during your programming. To be clear, I am referring to the ridiculously bold, full-color Peacock/Olympic rings logo in the lower left corner, which as of late has almost always been accompanied by bold white text advertising an upcoming show. I am also referring to the nearly 1/3 screen sized-ads for upcoming programming and/or Universal movie releases, as well as the garish captions which emerge from the Peacock logo feathers several times per hour. The fact that these ads often interrupt quality programming to advertise crapfests like Celebrity Apprentic and Clash of the Choirs makes it even worse.

I expect my complaints (and the complaints of others like me) will make no difference to you, so I will simply watch more programming on ABC, CBS, and Fox from now on. I wish you good luck and hope you don't finish in fourth place in too many timeslots this spring (or fifth when Univision gets a little fiesty).

Thanks,
Alan

I too have written to NBC and have not received even a canned response. I also won't watch NBC anymore. I could care less about Clash of the Comb-overs anyway.

Is Clash of the Choirs still on?

No, they replaced it with the comb-over. :)

Now Ron, don't mince words, tell us how you really feel......Ken, you know I'm not much of a word mincer... However, truth be told, that was the PC version. I had to revise the first draft because of this being a family board and all ;).


ron

However, truth be told, that was the PC version. I had to revise the first draft because of this being a family board and all ;).
So, would that make the HD DVD/Blu-Ray section the back-talking, sassy teenager of the family? ;)

So, would that make the HD DVD/Blu-Ray section the back-talking, sassy teenager of the family? ;)You know I really haven't frequented that forum since it's early days, as I've been hoping for some of the format war dust to clear. But from some of the stories I've heard, that sounds about right though :).


ron

I just noticed this for the first time last night during L&O. NBC has gone off the deep end. The constant bug logo was bad enough, but displaying words and numbers to give shows and times of shows during a broadcast is ridiculous.

and here comes CW. It doesn't go away btw.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/3904/cwoi6.th.jpg (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cwoi6.jpg)

Okay, so Tuner Networks, A&E Entertainment, NBC/Universal, CBS Corporation and Warner Brothers all have channels they own at least half of that do this. The trend is clear. More companies are finding this to be the right way to go, not less.

Sucks huh? >shrug<

On my local FOX network each day, there are back to back 30 minute Judge Judy programs. About 7 minutes into a segment, after commercial break, a giant pop up appears telling me I am watching Judge Judy and Judge Judy coming next. Well Duh. Totally useless information. The interesting thing is, you don't see similar pop ups on during live sporting events or news programs (at least I haven't seen them).

When you are 4th or 5th as NBC/CW are, you find any desperate way to plug shows. These promo bugs are commercials as far as I am concerned and should be looked at. If it doesn't stop, these networks will add more and more crap and they will look like Bloomburg.

Man I saw the bug for BBCA last night. Ewwww. I think BBCA is worse than TNT.

Like a bunch of cattle, we are all being herded to pay per view and purchase of "pristine", non sniped, non-logo, bluray, hddvd, and dvd content that we will be buying from the same companies that herded us there to get relief from the screen bullcrap on their free sources.

Wouldn't you know it: we finally get HDTV's capable of incredible content and then they screw up the content... DOH! "I am mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

"I am mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"Yes "you" are.

and here comes CW. It doesn't go away btw.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/3904/cwoi6.th.jpg (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cwoi6.jpg)

kee-rist. At least it's transparent.

Only a matter of time before everyone's doing it. Remember how when bugs first started nobody thought it would catch on?

Something must be done! I've already given up on NBC...gives me a chance to catch up on some of the 200+ movies in my Netflix queue.

Well someone's finally listening:

1 vs. 100 tonight had a transparent bug and NO TEXT (still with the olympic rings), and everything else is transparent tonight everywhere else (advertising text is still there, but the bug isn't colored anymore).

Well someone's finally listening:

1 vs. 100 tonight had a transparent bug and NO TEXT (still with the olympic rings), and everything else is transparent tonight everywhere else (advertising text is still there, but the bug isn't colored anymore).

Same for Las Vegas. Using the same gray transparent for the entire contraption is a bit nicer than the blaring orange rings and a rainbow-ass peacock with a crap show advertisement above in HUGE WHITE LETTERS. Come on, NBC! I miss the old NBC with HD in a rectangle that flew in engulfed in rainbow colors :confused:. Damn, why, NBC! WHY!!!

The bug on The Tonight Show is formatted for 16:9
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6884/snapshot20080104pp0.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20080104pp0.jpg)
and it seems they can't move it into 4:3 placement for the SD feed so they turned the logo off on it:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/116/snapshot200801040000wi6.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200801040000wi6.jpg)

There is one nice thing about TNT that I haven't seen mentioned -- they distribute their feed at a full 1920x1080 @ 19.4 Mbps.

Of course, whether you get that on your particular cable or satellite provider is another matter.

The bug on The Tonight Show is formatted for 16:9
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6884/snapshot20080104pp0.th.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20080104pp0.jpg)
and it seems they can't move it into 4:3 placement for the SD feed so they turned the logo off on it:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/116/snapshot200801040000wi6.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200801040000wi6.jpg)

They were having issues with the bug on the SD feed. When Leno first came up there was a transparent green overlay over the entire picture but there was a key-hole cut for the bug in that green overlay. Almost looked like the key signal was there but the fill video was missing. The HD feed bug was working so network switched the SD feed over to a centercut downconversion of the HD feed which then had only a few letters of the text visible on the left edge of the screen. Probably best to just drop it like they did so the SD viewers weren't spending the whole time trying to figure out why there were just a few letters on the left side of their screen. I see the bug is fixed now on the SD feed.

Someone around here sabotage their bug insertion gear? ;)

Someone around here sabotage their bug insertion gear? ;)Even their bug inserter is buggy! Has NBC blamed the WGA?

Well someone's finally listening:

1 vs. 100 tonight had a transparent bug and NO TEXT (still with the olympic rings), and everything else is transparent tonight everywhere else (advertising text is still there, but the bug isn't colored anymore).

Wouldn't that be due to the fact that it is no longer Christmas? NBC Today recently chopped up their Tree so it seems that they are now back to normal.

One thing that does worry me though is that Australian networks seem to love copying US stations. It would be a shame to see our shows be marked with this rubbish when it wasn't too long ago that they were clean feeds. Why we (Aussies) need to know what station we are watching is still beyond me since we only have five of them (well two or three extra depending on times - they branch SD and HD with different shows at times).

Something must be done!If you really want to stop this trend, you need to change the average American into an AV enthusiast. Otherwise, there will simply be enough of "them" to foster this trend to its inevitable destination, regardless of how many of "us" there are. It may seem like an impossible task, and it probably is, because most people have so many other avocations they care about more than television.

Well someone's finally listening:

1 vs. 100 tonight had a transparent bug and NO TEXT (still with the olympic rings), and everything else is transparent tonight everywhere else (advertising text is still there, but the bug isn't colored anymore).
Still it's an eyesore. Take out the promotion of other shows and I might start watching again. Otherwise I will continue to skip over my local affiliate when nothing is on.

If you really want to stop this trend, you need to change the average American into an AV enthusiast. Otherwise, there will simply be enough of "them" to foster this trend to its inevitable destination, regardless of how many of "us" there are. It may seem like an impossible task, and it probably is, because most people have so many other avocations they care about more than television.Nice defeatist attitude. Just bend over and spread 'em wide... :rolleyes:


ron

No, not at all. Don't confuse realism for defeatism. There is a difference. Perhaps you misread what I wrote, specifically missing the point that I presented an either/or. You could get people to change their attitudes to that the world changes to better serve your desires. (It could happen.)

The reality is, even if you don't like it, if the average American does not radically change their attitudes (to coincide more with yours, let's say), then their more pedestrian attitudes will govern how mass-market suppliers craft their product and service offerings.