Thought I'd share some initial impressions on the 3000e and share some quick screenshots. These are very preliminary and in fact pretty much OOTB (uncalibrated ) but after having seen what Sim2 had going on and several requests from members here to post some representative screenshots ASAP, here you go, however premature. Just having got my ISCO3 and not optimizing it yet, please don't criticize lack of sharpness on the pro (its not), as the ISCO is a work in progress and was basically just thrown up in front quickly for the Sim. BTW, my goal in video reproduction runs to as CRT like a presentation as possible yet not having the tweakiness, maintenance and effort required to care and feed for the beasts.

What really struck me about this projector is how beautifully saturated the colors, how deep and rich the blacks are and how much more depth and 3D and dimensionality there is as well as a lack of edge enhancement, no white sheen and tremendous POP. Skin tones look very realistic, and primaries don't stick out like they do with some other technologies that can't get skin tone right. In a few words, I think the best way to describe the presentation is natural yet vivid, involving, liquid, and exciting.

After a little time with the lights out you really sink into the presentation and relax. In this way it's very much like ultra hiend audio. Some hiend audio gear allows you to hear every microdetail yet you always feel on edge and jittery. It hands (or hits you over the head) a lot of information sometimes with edge, peaky transients, hardness, grunge noise etc. Not my cuppa. The better audio gear (tubed imo) allows you to hear all the details in a very natural yet fluid, rounded way and yet provides the mind the ability to relax, suspend disbelief and sink deep, deep into the presentation. Tone texture, 3d rounded imaging and color (in the good British sense of the word) are the things I look for in a good component that are very satisfying and relaxing which separate from the former gear when done correctly. The ability to convey the message that the artist, whether musician or director, intended on a high level; both on a physical AND emotional level are the things that separate for me the also rans. The Sim2 does these analagous things in a big way and that, folks, is an understatement.

Sorry for the run on analogies but I think they're quite appropo. I'll let the very quickly shot pics do the talking from here then put together some more extensive thoughts a little later on when I can steal some time. FYI 125" screen


http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6104/img0136ny0.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8927/img0203wa5.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1477/img0134gf7.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4195/img0184yd2.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/8007/3000eyenm9.jpg

woW!!

Stunning !

Now I really have to switch my order to Sim2. Those images are absolutely gorgeous, and so pleasant. They seem to have hit the nail in the head with the latest line-up, with HT380, and now this first 'witness' of 3000e. Congratulations on your great choice.

what more can three chips add?

Wow that is sick, and on a 125" saweet!

Excellent pictures. Congratulations on your purchase! :)

Seems like Sim2 will rule 2007-8 in the $10,000 and up projector category. ;)

Really nice. I am deciding between a HT380/HT3000E and a Marantz Vp-15S1 and with your screen shots above it seems I can't go wrong with either brand.

Really nice. I am deciding between a HT380/HT3000E and a Marantz Vp-15S1 and with your screen shots above it seems I can't go wrong with either brand.

Also picking one between Marantz and Sim2 here. Actually have Marantz on order. What is your assessment so far? I am now leaning heavily towards Sim2. This screen pic is just unbelievable. Marantz also have heavy praise from 'those who know', but have not seen screen pics of same calibre as this or those from Jason's review of HT380.

By the way, I live in Norway where importer does not exist... And Sim2 lens will be too large for my Schneider anamorphic lens. I still want to get Sim2 after all these evidences !

Well done Owl, you now have a machine that is right at the top of the heap.

When you get the ISCO dialled in properly your image will be sharper still. When I tested the 3000e and 380 back to back I got some fantastic screens. The 380's are below, i think there are 3 groups. All the 235's are 10.5ft wide with an ISCO, so you'll get the same sharpnes when your finished.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919760

I'll also put up a couple of 3000e soon, as the image of the 2 is pretty much identical. Im doing some comparison shots with the HT5000 and the HT380 as i write this. The HT380 (and therefore the 3000e as it uses the same technology) is easily the closest image of any projector to 3 chip yet.

Good luck, and welcome to the club. If you need any info on the menus and controls etc give me a shout (again:D).

Its been a pleasure PMing through this with you.

what more can three chips add?

The gap has closed with the new Sim2's. There is still a noticeable difference but its a good bit smaller now with the arrival of the HT380/3000e.

I'll be putting up some direct comparisons between the HT380/3000e and the HT5000 fairly soon.

Wow... those are the punchiest shots I've ever seen. I was just starting to consider the HT380 when I saw these... (haven't done enough research to know the differences between the models yet).

Quick question: is a HP screen a mistake (even at max throw) with a beast like this?

What are the differences between the HT380 and HT3000e? What's the MSRP on the HT3000e?

do you need additional hardware to dial in the colors or will the pj and sim2 new cms do the trick?

owl 1,
seeing any rainbows?

does the 3000e darkchip 4?

Ian

Possibly.The HP was purchased for my Ruby which really benefited from the extra gain. I have a spare Studiotek 130 that I put up next to the HP to compare them. Below is a shot from that comparison. I did play around with lowering the bulb and found that I preferred the setting at it's highest, 200 which I believe equates to watts(?) perhaps. After trying it at 160 my preference was to bring it back up even with the HP for more pop. The shots I took are subtle but when viewed, the Stewart had a softer richer more filmlike less grainy appearance which was quite appealing. Blacks were to die for. Since my room is multiuse with pool table and bar with sports viewing on the weekends as well as gaming the HP performs well for ambient rejection in comparison to the 130. Football and baseball in particular are spectacular on this HP screen.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6673/screenshots108ek7.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6096/screenshots048jj3.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8438/screenshots084ru4.jpg

What are the differences between the HT380 and HT3000e? What's the MSRP on the HT3000e?

There are some lightpath component differences and some software too. The 3000e also has substantially more light output. The 3000e also has a 2nd HDMI input for per source calibration.

Also due to the native temp of the bulb, these are the only machines that can output max light with NO drop in CR all at D65. My 380 gives 780 lumens and 6700cr with 700 ANSI.....ALL AT D65.

The 3000e will go above these figures. I would imagine 1000 calibrated lumens.

The HT3000e has a slightly higher ANSI figure too. In terms of raw power and fidelity they are in a class of thier own at the moment.

MSRP is, i think, $16k.

300 on the 3000e on a 10.5ft wide 235 screen with ISCOIII. Almost identical to the 380 shot.

The gap has closed with the new Sim2's. There is still a noticeable difference but its a good bit smaller now with the arrival of the HT380/3000e.

I'll be putting up some direct comparisons between the HT380/3000e and the HT5000 fairly soon.

OK!! OK!! I give the 380 is the PJ I am going to buy I have being fighting with myself long enough RIP JVC, Sim2 has won. Now anyone can put me up for a little while as my wife is going to put me out. :D :D :D

do you need additional hardware to dial in the colors or will the pj and sim2 new cms do the trick?

Nothing additional needed. The CMS is a total dream to use.

What are the differences between the HT380 and HT3000e? What's the MSRP on the HT3000e?

coldmachine should answer here as he's directly compared the two but the 3000e has a 200w bulb vs 160 in the 380 as well as some additional video processing capabilities. I believe optics are the same in both units.

Also due to the native temp of the bulb, these are the only machines that can output max light with NO drop in CR all at D65. My 380 gives 780 lumens and 6700cr with 700 ANSI.....ALL AT D65.



High CR + High Lumens(SIMULTANEOUS)= :D

Also due to the native temp of the bulb, these are the only machines that can output max light with NO drop in CR all at D65. My 380 gives 780 lumens and 6700cr with 700 ANSI.....ALL AT D65.

Don't know if the temp of the lamp is that different. In one of your thread a guy name Stephan said this

I think the rainbows are from the new color wheels with primary and secondary colors. Previous color wheels have 2x primaries, which reduces rainbows. The new color wheels have a different advantage, they allow the color temperatur to be closer to D65 at a higher brightness. Projectors with the "older" color wheels can be cablibrated to D65 as well and can have the same gamut, but at the loss of brightness. As far as the new CWs with primary and secondary colors go, there's really no advantage when it comes to color itself... just more brightness and on/off CR.

If you can, you should put a HT3000 and HT3000E side by side and see if you notice any differences in rainbows.
You can get to the post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11921329#post11921329

Don't know where he got the information but it will make sens. The color wheel is different not the bulb.

Bruno

Nothing additional needed. The CMS is a total dream to use.

Uhm... I hate to burst the bubble, but the CMS is nothing more as a software to make adjustments to the projector. You still have to measure the actual output of the projector to verify the settings. Just because you feed a specific setting to the projector, doesn't mean you're automatically there. So additional hardware is still needed to verify the actual settings applied with CMS. Don't forget the screen can change things as well, but for that you need a sensor that can actually read accurately off the screen.

Is the CMS pre loaded into the 380 or do you have to do it yourself.

owen,

Fricking amazing screen shots. Now do not come back ot this forum for 5 years OK!!!! I'm serious man. (Did you get Guitar Hero 3? Co op career time.)

-ELmO

owl1, thanks for responding. When I mentioned a HP screen, I was thinking of my own situation (I have a large HP). Were your original shots taken on your HP or your Stewart?

Do you see any significant tradeoffs coming from the Ruby?

Uhm... I hate to burst the bubble, but the CMS is nothing more as a software to make adjustments to the projector. You still have to measure the actual output of the projector to verify the settings. Just because you feed a specific setting to the projector, doesn't mean you're automatically there. So additional hardware is still needed to verify the actual settings applied with CMS. Don't forget the screen can change things as well, but for that you need a sensor that can actually read accurately off the screen.


I assumed that was taken for granted. I know whats needed...I'm using it.

Don't know if the temp of the lamp is that different. In one of your thread a guy name Stephan said this


You can get to the post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11921329#post11921329

Don't know where he got the information but it will make sens. The color wheel is different not the bulb.

Bruno

The wheel is different obviously, Ive explained it all previously in great detail. I know these machines very well

The bulb is VERY different. It has a native temp of 6800k makes it far closer than normal to D65. Therefore minimal light loss when dialed in. Therefore huge increse in calibrated lumens.

If you need more info just shout

Don't know where he got the information but it will make sens. The color wheel is different not the bulb.

Let me add a few words to what I have posted in the other thread.
You can make pretty much any projector brighter by pushing the primaries further, so you have more red, green and/or blue in the image. This will increase brightness, but it will also shift the color temperature, so you're drifting away from D65. For this reason, Sim2 has added the new CW with red, green, blue, cyan, magenta and yellow elements to their projectors. The result is a higher light output, while remaining closer to D65.

So higher light output will increase On/Off CR if the black level stays the same (or is dropped). Sim2 made another step by adding a "dynamic control" to the lamp. This is similar to a dynamic iris from other manufacturers, the only difference is that other manufacturers do this with a mechanical iris in the optical path and Sim2 is doing it on the lamp itself. So in darker scenes, they lower the brightness of the bulb, which results in lower brightness (better black level). Keep in mind that in dark scenes, you don't need the full brightness from the lamp. In brighter scenes, the opposite happens. The brightness is turned up to the max, which results in a better peak light output. So they get both effects, they lower the blacklevel while they also raise the total light output.

Is the CMS pre loaded into the 380 or do you have to do it yourself.

The CMS is PC based. The necessary software, including an improved version of brilliant color, is already on the PJ

Let me add a few words to what I have posted in the other thread.
You can make pretty much any projector brighter by pushing the primaries further, so you have more red, green and/or blue in the image. This will increase brightness, but it will also shift the color temperature, so you're drifting away from D65. For this reason, Sim2 has added the new CW with red, green, blue, cyan, magenta and yellow elements to their projectors. The result is a higher light output, while remaining closer to D65.

So higher light output will increase On/Off CR if the black level stays the same (or is dropped). Sim2 made another step by adding a "dynamic control" to the lamp. This is similar to a dynamic iris from other manufacturers, the only difference is that other manufacturers do this with a mechanical iris in the optical path and Sim2 is doing it on the lamp itself. So in darker scenes, they lower the brightness of the bulb, which results in lower brightness (better black level). Keep in mind that in dark scenes, you don't need the full brightness from the lamp. In brighter scenes, the opposite happens. The brightness is turned up to the max, which results in a better peak light output. So they get both effects, they lower the blacklevel while they also raise the total light output.

Your explaination of the bulb modulation is very incomplete and at the same time very wrong (and only refers to dynamic dimming, which is only 1/3 of the lamps modulation matrix, as it also massively effects color). You have missed the PER SEGMENT and SUB SEGMENT modulation. This is nothing like a DI as it happens from approx 1100 upto 3300 times per second NOT per scene and is for a totally different purpose, the lo pulse also adds 2 bits of color depth. To say that the only difference to a DI is that one is mechanical is 100% wrong. Also unlike every DI ever, Dynamic Dimming is totally undetectable. There is also the effect of lo pulse on dithering too.

You have not understood or explained the lo pulse and varible plateau parts of the matrix

The brightness gain is not due to pushing out the primaries at all. The lamp output is modulated to suit the indivdual segment.


look here at page 4 to see the whole modulation matrix

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/Tools_%26_Services/Downloads/UNISHAPE/what_is_UNISHAPE_p/Unishape_Presentation.pdf

Also you miss the huge effect of the native temp of the bulb on the light output, as i explained earlier.Its this and Variable Plateau that gives the brightness.


If you need further info please shout.

I am buying this PJ sight unseen as I live in the middle of no where as far as bulb replacement how many hrs are they rated for. Also is there a mode to do CIH in the PJ or do I need a processor sorry for all the noob questions and if its been already addressed I'm sorry.

I am buying this PJ sight unseen as I live in the middle of no where as far as bulb replacement how many hrs are they rated for. Also is there a mode to do CIH in the PJ or do I need a processor sorry for all the noob questions and if its been already addressed I'm sorry.

bulb rated at 4000 hrs.

As for aspect ratios......6 processing memories per input each with 3 user ratios( as well as presets). Thats 18 aspect ratios per input, fully programmable vertically and horizontally. Each can individually fire a masking system if needed. All memories/ratios can be named for easy use.

owl1, thanks for responding. When I mentioned a HP screen, I was thinking of my own situation (I have a large HP). Were your original shots taken on your HP or your Stewart?

Do you see any significant tradeoffs coming from the Ruby?

Ian

Originals are on the HP. Tradeoffs coming from the Ruby? I'll have to think about that one :cool:

The Ruby is a very good projector, and with the new convergence and motionflow capabilities will be somewhat a contender but based on what sim can offer now with the 380 and 3000e will put the Ruby in the somewhat highly priced for what you get category. I moved the Ruby because I was looking for more punch and WOW factor which I think the Sim2 gives me. I could be happy with the Ruby forever, but am far happier with the Sim2. I've also compared the VW60 directly to the Sim2 and let's just say I have a lot of respect for the Black Pearl and think it's an amazing machine for the money but it was kind of like the AL vs NL in the world series... As one dealer told me, the 3000e is 3 times the machine the Ruby is and I don't disagree with that statement.

I am buying this PJ sight unseen as I live in the middle of no where as far as bulb replacement how many hrs are they rated for. Also is there a mode to do CIH in the PJ or do I need a processor sorry for all the noob questions and if its been already addressed I'm sorry.

The bulb life is rated at 4000 hours. You also can setup custom aspect ratios. To combat the wife's disapproval, give it to her as an anniversary present.;)

The bulb life is rated at 4000 hours. You also can setup custom aspect ratios. To combat the wife's disapproval, give it to her as an anniversary present.;)

There's an echo in here:D:D

I'll be OK I'll just buy another Ring, Necklace, braclet or what ever punishment in diamonds shs sees fit. :D

so to dial in the colors one would need a laptop computer and a sensor?
what is the sensor?
sounds like a calibrator is needed to see the full potential.

Amazing screenshots. I was blown away. I envy you guys!

Msrp?

so to dial in the colors one would need a laptop computer and a sensor?
what is the sensor?
sounds like a calibrator is needed to see the full potential.

Look at the CIE diagram in the review. They are very color accurate OOTB.

The CMS is to provide the most accurate cal possible. Theres a thread showing and explaining it on the big boys forum.

Msrp?

I answered before...$16k

There's an echo in here:D:D

CM, I'm going to have to practice typing faster:p

To all those considering the purchase of a Sim2, I've had my HT380 for approximately 1 1/2 weeks and it is the single most satisfying purchase I've made in a long time. IMHO, if you decide on a Sim2 you'll have absolutely no buyer's remorse afterwards. I'm using a 110" StudioTek 130 16:9 screen and the image is stunning, with inky blacks, bright whites, and excellent shadow and highlight detail.

when jason comes back on vacation, I hope to visit, and come home with ...an HT3000E or HT380, if he can impress me.

oh man I love movies....but what if I say I can't go 2.35 right now? Will anyone cut my head off? I cannot afford the lense right now if I go HT3000E....

Bob,

Its $16k MSRP. Jason had one at a real amazing price, that had me contemplating it, but I believe that Owl1 snapped it up. 8)

Real nice pics, Owl1!

what about the c3x1080 Vs the 3000e, anyone seen both?
also, is this 3000e with the great screenshots using the darkchip 4?

when jason comes back on vacation, I hope to visit, and come home with ...an HT3000E or HT380, if he can impress me.

oh man I love movies....but what if I say I can't go 2.35 right now? Will anyone cut my head off? I cannot afford the lense right now if I go HT3000E....

You'll still have a stellar machine no matter what. If you watch a lot of HDTV and PC/Console games then a 16:9 may actually make more sense anyway.

what about the c3x1080 Vs the 3000e, anyone seen both?
also, is this 3000e with the great screenshots using the darkchip 4?

Its not a fair comparison. Different technology and different price category.

Ive seen both, and can say that the C3X1080 is a great PJ and may now actually be better after the optimisation period that has taken place. Also this level of performance was not available at anywhere near the $30k price before.

The HT380/3000e have closed the gap a good bit, but machines like the C3X1080 and, even more the HT5000, are a breed apart at the moment.

The HT3000e is DC3.

The HT3000e is DC3.

You sure about that ?? Particularly moving forward ??

You sure about that ?? Particularly moving forward ??

Yes I am, at the moment its a DC3 machine.

This PJ has been out a few months already.

Its not a fair comparison. Different technology and different price category.

Ive seen both, and can say that the C3X1080 is a great PJ and may now actually be better after the optimisation period that has taken place. Also this level of performance was not available at anywhere near the $30k price before.

The HT380/3000e have closed the gap a good bit, but machines like the C3X1080 and, even more the HT5000, are a breed apart at the moment.

The HT3000e is DC3.

coldmachine
do you mean they have improved the C3X1080 since you saw it? Can you let loose a little on this "optimization period" and what it entails? Also, inquiring minds want to know how close the new machine comes to the big boy HT5000 :)

VERY NICE pics Owl1! :)

If I could get myself to pay that much for a PJ (I just won't do it anymore out of principle), the HT380 and the HT3000e would be at the very top of my list for single chip DLP machines...

Sweet PJ, congrats!!! :cool:

Thanks Wet1! Sometimes passion overrides reason. Oh, Sweet sorrow!!

Owen, are those top screen shots on the HP or a Stewart?

Thanks,
ELmO

Owen, are those top screen shots on the HP or a Stewart?

Thanks,
ELmO

HP on the top 3 shots
the next 3 are HP on left and stewart on the right

hey, those screen shots were really fun!
that one movie, meet the robinsons, is so colorful and your 3000e makes it look awesome.
seeing those shots kind of made my day yesterday.
hows about some more.
could you post some shots from james bond, casino royale? also transformers?

coldmachine
do you mean they have improved the C3X1080 since you saw it? Can you let loose a little on this "optimization period" and what it entails? Also, inquiring minds want to know how close the new machine comes to the big boy HT5000 :)

Just simply that the show models were pre prod examples. In the time since then the units have been refined in terms of hardware and software. The performance has been optimised for maximum stable and calibrated performance.

There are some design aspects of the HT5000 that will secure its place at the head of the pack.

To all those considering the purchase of a Sim2, I've had my HT380 for approximately 1 1/2 weeks and it is the single most satisfying purchase I've made in a long time. IMHO, if you decide on a Sim2 you'll have absolutely no buyer's remorse afterwards. I'm using a 110" StudioTek 130 16:9 screen and the image is stunning, with inky blacks, bright whites, and excellent shadow and highlight detail.

Doyle

It just goes to show how opinon and expectation varies from person to person. My experience with the HT380 was the opposite to yours and ended in the unit being returned. :(

Glad your experience and unit turned out better than mine. Happy viewing :)

D

Your explaination of the bulb modulation is very incomplete and at the same time very wrong (and only refers to dynamic dimming, which is only 1/3 of the lamps modulation matrix, as it also massively effects color). You have missed the PER SEGMENT and SUB SEGMENT modulation. This is nothing like a DI as it happens from approx 1100 upto 3300 times per second NOT per scene and is for a totally different purpose, the lo pulse also adds 2 bits of color depth. To say that the only difference to a DI is that one is mechanical is 100% wrong. Also unlike every DI ever, Dynamic Dimming is totally undetectable. There is also the effect of lo pulse on dithering too.

I hate to burst the bubble again. Modulating on a per segment basis is pretty much useless. It's very nice to have that on paper, but in reality this will exactly introduce the problem, that I have mentioned before. If you make one or multiple, but not all colors at the same time brighter or dimmer, you will push the primaries and with that the temperature away from D65. So what makes sense is modulating on a per cycle basis.

What you say about a mechanical DI is not true. If it's done properly, you can't detect it. I've done this to DI projectors before. Changed hardware, firmware, used my own modified algorithms and the DI is gone for the eye. Of course you can still measure it, but you can also measure the modulation of the lamp...


The brightness gain is not due to pushing out the primaries at all. The lamp output is modulated to suit the indivdual segment.

Please read my posting again. I've never said that the HT380 and HT3000E are pushing the primaries to gain higher brighness. This is what all the other manufacturers are doing and what Sim2 has been doing before the introduced the new CW with primary and secondary colors. I don't think there's anything wrong about it either. What matter is that they're spot on D65 after calibration and bright enough for what they're used. If you buy a projector that is rated 2500 lumens and after calibration it comes in at 1000 lumens and that is enough for you, then that's absolutely fine.

The major bump in brightness on the HT380 and HT3000E is thanks to the new CW with secondary colors. Rip one apart, put the old wheel in, change the controls for it and see what it does...


Also you miss the huge effect of the native temp of the bulb on the light output, as i explained earlier.Its this and Variable Plateau that gives the brightness.

I'm not sure why you think the color temperature is such a critical element in this equation. We've had lamps with a little less light output that measured about the same x/y as the new Sim2 bulbs, but with different filter characteristics. If you want something that is absolutely spot-on with no filters or modulation, then Xenon is still the king of all lamps. Sure, it's expensive, it drops in brightness quite a bit, but it still looks the best.

It just goes to show how opinon and expectation varies from person to person. My experience with the HT380 was the opposite to yours and ended in the unit being returned. :(


Didn't you return yours because you had a defective unit and had issues with rainbows? If you're still interested in 1-chip DLP, I'd recommend to check out the new Projection Design M25 and/or the Digital Projection iVision 30-1080p. Those will be killers. Especially if you suffered rainbows on the Sim2, those two will be perfect for you.

I'm not sure why you think the color temperature is such a critical element in this equation. We've had lamps with a little less light output that measured about the same x/y as the new Sim2 bulbs, but with different filter characteristics. If you want something that is absolutely spot-on with no filters or modulation, then Xenon is still the king of all lamps. Sure, it's expensive, it drops in brightness quite a bit, but it still looks the best.


See post 9. As I said, a native temp (encompassing unishape lamp and BC) close to D65 reduces light loss.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11873232#post11873232


Out of interest, who is "we", are you involved in the industry? Judging by your DI comments, you are and therefore have a vested interest in saying that they work well.

Didn't you return yours because you had a defective unit and had issues with rainbows? If you're still interested in 1-chip DLP, I'd recommend to check out the new Projection Design M25 and/or the Digital Projection iVision 30-1080p. Those will be killers. Especially if you suffered rainbows on the Sim2, those two will be perfect for you.


Stephan

Thanks for the tip. :)

Yes the chromatic aberration was unacceptable IMO but Sim2 claimed it was normal and in spec based on the photos I posted here. I also observed rainbows that I didn't experience on other mono DLP's that I watched recently.

I'm not sure if this was a problem unit of typical but in addition to those issues I was also disappointed with the PJ's black level and perfromance in lower APL scenes. :(

I'm planning to look at the Marantz 11S2 and M25 when available.

D

That is bad customer service on sim2's part to say it's within spec based on photos.

They should have taken the unit in, investigated it themselves, then said that...

Why would they trust your calibration? Not sure I like that company policy..

-ELmO

Didn't you return yours because you had a defective unit and had issues with rainbows? If you're still interested in 1-chip DLP, I'd recommend to check out the new Projection Design M25 and/or the Digital Projection iVision 30-1080p. Those will be killers. Especially if you suffered rainbows on the Sim2, those two will be perfect for you.

how are the Projection Design M25 and/or the Digital Projection iVision 30-1080p related?
can you give some more info about them?

That is bad customer service on sim2's part to say it's within spec based on photos.

They should have taken the unit in, investigated it themselves, then said that...

Why would they trust your calibration? Not sure I like that company policy..

-ELmO

I was also surprised. The people involved at Sim2 regularly read and contribute to these threads but they appear to have chosen to remain silent in this case. :(

D

Their silence and also their claim of "in spec" certainly hasn't gone unnoticed Dazzer.
It's made me ultra-cautious of buying anything without a thorough inspection.
If you expect one thing from Sim2 rather than other companies, it's good customer support. There's no way any of us here would have kept that unit.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments above, and Dazzer knows i gave up plenty of my own very rare and precious time to help him, I do have to say that I dont feel this particular thread is the place for it.

It was started by the OP to express his happiness, and sentiment echoed by Doyle. Turning it this way lacks a certain good grace. There is a time and place for that, just as there is for magnanimity. Why cant people let someone be happy without some one taking the joy from another.

This particular issue has been done to death before, and i thought was resolved.

It was started by the OP to express his happiness, and sentiment echoed by Doyle. Turning it this way lacks a certain good grace. There is a time and place for that, just as there is for magnanimity. Why cant people let someone be happy without some one taking the joy from another.



Cold

My intent wasn't to take the shine off the OP's purchase but clearly I had a very different experience to Doyle. As I said in that post opinion and expectations vary from person to person and I was simply sharing my experience.

D

Cold

My intent wasn't to take the shine off the OP's purchase but clearly I had a very different experience to Doyle. As I said in that post opinion and expectations vary from person to person and I was simply sharing my experience.

D

I do understand what you are saying,I really do, and you know i expressed my opinion on your unit, so im in no way exusing it. It just doesnt come over as experience sharing. Maybe its just me.

Anyway, good luck in your search.

Anyway, good luck in your search.

Thanks. Lets get the thread back on topic. :)

D

Out of interest, who is "we", are you involved in the industry? Judging by your DI comments, you are and therefore have a vested interest in saying that they work well.

In what industry? I mainly work in the imaging and software industry, but not in the projector industry itself. Obviously, projectors are used as well in what I do, and most manufacturers do not limit their product range to HT products only, but also manufacture units to higher standards that are used for medical applications and research as well as the simulation and broadcast market.

It's funny how often you edit your posts, I counted three times for this one alone. Whenever someone is saying something you don't like or don't want to believe, you imply that person has a financial intrest in what he's saying. The truth is, I couldn't care less if a DI works or not. They point is, with alot of work and knowledge put into it, it can work to perfection (if such a thing as perfection would exist). No technology is perfect, period.

Now you might ask why I have done this. First of all, I've always done it since the old days of CRT, usually for myself, sometimes for others. Second, for me performance matters the most, then comes the price. And last but not least, I've used it in projects where money isn't much of an issue. Of course you could have bought a bunch of Sim2 projectors instead (which we've also used in the past). But you see, in some cases Sim2 works better and in others something else works better.

So please, lighten up. If you don't like how a DI works, that's fine with me. You don't have to use one. And I agree that most manufacturers can't implement a DI in the way they should, simply because of cost restrictions.
You always have to choose your poison, no matter what it is. Sim2 has done this as well, they dropped the old color wheel for more light output and more On/Off CR at the cost of artifacts that can be spotted more easily by some people. But again, no technology is perfect.

Back to the regular program now... :)

how are the Projection Design M25 and/or the Digital Projection iVision 30-1080p related?
can you give some more info about them?

I'll make this quick, as I'm sure there will be dedicated threads for these products once we see final production units shipping.

They're based on the same design but not identical. Prototypes so far look excellent, but that doesn't mean alot. Subjectively, they're brighter than than the Sim2s discussed here and have less rainbows and dithering. Will have to see how the final products will perform as far as On/Off in relation to brightness and ANSI CR, so far they look like winners in my opinion. And for Cold... no, I do not have any financial interest in any of the brands. ;)

It's funny how often you edit your posts, I counted three times for this one alone.

Back to the regular program now... :)


No problem.We can move on now:)

Just so you know, and ive posted it a few times before before, the reason I edit so frequently is that I have Dyslexia. I also sometimes forget to write what I thought and therefore need to return frequently to my posts.

Agreed, let's stay on topic for this post. Awaiting those 3000e screenshots CM!

SCREEN SHOTS!!!!

SCREEN SHOTS

SCREEN SHOTS!!!

lets see some more guys.

Thought I'd share some initial impressions on the 3000e and share some quick screenshots.

Are you using a T1 or T2 lens ?

D

Dazzer,
I'll be putting up some comparison shots soon that will use one of each.

T2 at almost 2.1 throw.

Does anyone have an HT380 or HT3000e he/she would like to demo to an AVS member or two in the northeast US?

T2 at almost 2.1 throw.

Thanks. I'm lead to believe the T2 is the better lens option if the install will accomodate it. Nice screen shots BTW. :)

D

Dazzer,
I'll be putting up some comparison shots soon that will use one of each.

Thanks. Do you see much difference ? As per my reply to Owl it was suggested the T2 is a better lens if the install will accomodate it. I don't know if this is true of in what way it's better but I look forward to the pics. :)

D

Why is the T2 a better lense?

If the T2 is a better lense, then it should be great for both 380/3000 appications.

Should we get better brightness from a Short-throw 1.5-2 on the 3800e?

Thanks

Why is the T2 a better lense?

If the T2 is a better lense, then it should be great for both 380/3000 appications.

Should we get better brightness from a Short-throw 1.5-2 on the 3800e?

Thanks

Yes you'll get more brightness as with any PJ, but the 3000e is not really an ideal "small setup" or short throw machine.

what throw length do you suggest for the 3000E?

Thanks,
ELmO

3000e screens. 16:9. Better ones to follow in a new comparison thread, 3000e/380.


The 380 shots of these are a perfect pixel to pixel match

My JAW just dropped....

.....AMAZING

The wheel is different obviously, Ive explained it all previously in great detail. I know these machines very well

The bulb is VERY different. It has a native temp of 6800k makes it far closer than normal to D65. Therefore minimal light loss when dialed in. Therefore huge increse in calibrated lumens.

If you need more info just shout

After reading the Roser comments it's obvious to me that the UHP lamp is not 6800k native. The light comming out of the projector is 6800k. That is different. In a regular one chip DLP with a red, green and blue segments (or two) you get max output when the mirrors in the DMD chip stay "on" all the time. The problem with that is that you get a temperature in the high 9000k. Blue segment is obviously to large. For what reason I don't know but I guess they need to make a blue segment that large to be able to reproduce other colors accuratly. You could just put a bigger red segment and get the light comming out of the projector closer to 6500k. They must have good reason for not doing it. To calibrate to D65 you have to turn off the mirror in the DMD to eliminate that excess of blue dropping lumens at the same time.

It's seem that Sim colors wheels with its primary and secondary mix with the uniphase technologie let you keep the mirrors "on" and still being close to 6500k explaining why calibrating the projector doesn't impact brightness by much.

The reason for this is quite simple, the native white point of our single chip projectors with Brilliant Color & Unishape is around 6800-7000k. The native color setting will tell you where this point is, being very close to D65 this means the loss of light output in now minimal. Most projectors with UHP have a native white point up in the high 9000's and this is why you lose light output when calibrated to D65.

The reason we are able to do this is because we now have a magenta color segment this pulls the white point towards red. With Unishape & Brilliant color we are able to smooth out the peaks & troughs of the light wavelength of UHP lamps.

When comparing a HT3000 against Ht3000E at D65 the 'E' version has over double the amount of light with an increase of contrast of around 60%. :cool:

And the great news is, those of you who have a HT3000 can upgrade it to the 'E' version.

After reading the Roser comments it's obvious to me that the UHP lamp is not 6800k native. The light comming out of the projector is 6800k. That is different.

You are correct, I did qualify that in post#62, that i was talking about the lamp( including BC and US).

I think we were hoping to get back to the OPs idea. Hence my screens

Thanks.

I know that Sim2 doesn't publish lumen output for their pj's, but I wonder if anyone (CM?) has reasonably meaningful values (i.e., calibrated at D65, etc.) for this--for the 3000e compared to the 380. TIA

3000e screens. 16:9. Better ones to follow in a new comparison thread, 3000e/380.


The 380 shots of these are a perfect pixel to pixel match

CM I just peed in my pants man.

not cuz of the pics, cuz I drank too much at wendy's but still

I know that Sim2 doesn't publish lumen output for their pj's, but I wonder if anyone (CM?) has reasonably meaningful values (i.e., calibrated at D65, etc.) for this--for the 3000e compared to the 380. TIA

I read someone in this forum say they wouldn't be surprised the 3000e gave D65 1000 lumens.

Here are the 380 captures of the screens above.

He just renamed the files!!!!!!!!!

I know that Sim2 doesn't publish lumen output for their pj's, but I wonder if anyone (CM?) has reasonably meaningful values (i.e., calibrated at D65, etc.) for this--for the 3000e compared to the 380. TIA

Dont know exactly, but over 1000 calibrated lumens. The 380 is giving over 750.

He just renamed the files!!!!!!!!!

What?

Just a joke. Anyway can we see some movie screen shots that aren't animation?

Thanks,
ELmO

Just a joke. Anyway can we see some movie screen shots that aren't animation?

Thanks,
ELmO

I did clearly say i would provide more later and that I would do a comparison thread. Why are things never enough for some, no matter how much you do or help.

My time is very precious and rather scarece at the moment and therefor cannot do requests. I no longer have the 3000e anyway, so couldnt take more if I wanted. I do have plenty movie images though.

That aside, some of the images are specifically for Owl, in order to let him see the sharpness that can be achieved when he is fully set up (including the ISCOIII)

the screen shots appear different.
the 3000e seems a bit better. but, that maybe just a bit brighter.

the screen shots are so good form both of these pjs that i'm left to wonder, what else would one see with 3 chip dlp or the new dark chip 4.

the screen shots appear different.
the 3000e seems a bit better. but, that maybe just a bit brighter.

the screen shots are so good form both of these pjs that i'm left to wonder, what else would one see with 3 chip dlp or the new dark chip 4.

The only difference when overlayed is the cropping and a very minor lumen difference as the 3000e was dimmed to match.

Anybody know if Sim2 will be showing the 3000e and 380 at the CES in LV this Jan?

I did clearly say i would provide more later and that I would do a comparison thread. Why are things never enough for some, no matter how much you do or help.

My time is very precious and rather scarece at the moment and therefor cannot do requests. I no longer have the 3000e anyway, so couldnt take more if I wanted. I do have plenty movie images though.

That aside, some of the images are specifically for Owl, in order to let him see the sharpness that can be achieved when he is fully set up (including the ISCOIII)

Sorry man, people want more of a beautiful thing...though I haven't seen enough sim2 non animation shots. I think you know as well as anyone that animation has the ability to look splendid on many screen shots....

The only difference when overlayed is the cropping and a very minor lumen difference as the 3000e was dimmed to match.

How did you dim the 3000e - by lowering the lamp power to 160?

Okay, CM thanks for the screen shots. After you lower the lumens on the 3000e to match the 380, I personally saw "Zero" difference between the images. Both are equally AMAZING. My JAW did not drop a second time because I saw nothing new. That said the 380 and 3000e look like Winners to me.

THANKS CM!!!

I know that Sim2 doesn't publish lumen output for their pj's, but I wonder if anyone (CM?) has reasonably meaningful values (i.e., calibrated at D65, etc.) for this--for the 3000e compared to the 380. TIA


Between the two (3000e/380) there is approx. a 400-500 lumen difference.

Jim

Cold thanks for the screen shots I appreciate having something to look at along with reading the threads about the 380, 3000e and 5000. Thanks Greg

Between the two (3000e/380) there is approx. a 400-500 lumen difference.

Jim

Thanks Jim. Never new it was quite that much, it is however readily noticeable. Even by eye, comparing to 750, it was well over 1000.

Sorry man, people want more of a beautiful thing...though I haven't seen enough sim2 non animation shots. I think you know as well as anyone that animation has the ability to look splendid on many screen shots....

You are correct re animations. I did post a good number of non animated shots in a previous post.

Cold, I have one of the top Sim2 projectors of a few years ago the 300e. It still throws a great picture especially high def. It has a three segment wheel. How much better is the color now when compared to the 380 and 3000e with a six segment wheel. If I did an A/B would I notice a big improvement in the color saturation as well as brightness and contrast? Thanks Greg

Cold, I have one of the top Sim2 projectors of a few years ago the 300e. It still throws a great picture especially high def. It has a three segment wheel. How much better is the color now when compared to the 380 and 3000e with a six segment wheel. If I did an A/B would I notice a big improvement in the color saturation as well as brightness and contrast? Thanks Greg

When I get time I'll reply fully and specifically. Simple answer... Yes you would see a substantial difference.

For those who might want to know, UHP lamps are red deficient (having much more green and blue) and that's why the native color temp is around 9000k. Usually you have to reduce the amount of green and blue electronically in the pj to match the red output, so you lose lumens and on/off contrast. An old trick was to add an FL-Day or similar color correcting filter to the front of the pj to give you back more red by cutting green and blue optically (at the expense of lumens since it's a piece of colored glass in the light path at all times), so you can then increase the green and blue you had reduced back up to match the extra red the filter has given you. This increases the previously dimmed lumens and on/off contrast. Finding the perfect filter to allow you to use max red green and blue would give you a contrast figure close to the advertised figure, but finding the perfect filter was unlikely (the FL-Day was a good compromise and easy to find).

With Sim2s secondary colours in the color wheel, as Mr Roser mentioned, the magenta segment pulls the green and blue in (I guess in a similar way the FL-Day does), but as it isn't in the light path all the time like a filter, the amount of light reduction is less and the colour temp is now around 6800k, with only minor tweaking required/recalibrating to get it to D65. Brilliant innovation IMHO and seems such a simple idea I wonder why no one thought of it before. Some manufacturers had larger red segments in their colour wheels to increase the red spectrum so they had the right idea but maybe adding secondaries isn't as easy to implement as it seems.

Gary

For those who might want to know, UHP lamps are red deficient (having much more green and blue) and that's why the native color temp is around 9000k. Usually you have to reduce the amount of green and blue electronically in the pj to match the red output, so you lose lumens and on/off contrast. An old trick was to add an FL-Day or similar color correcting filter to the front of the pj to give you back more red by cutting green and blue optically (at the expense of lumens since it's a piece of colored glass in the light path at all times), so you can then increase the green and blue you had reduced back up to match the extra red the filter has given you. This increases the previously dimmed lumens and on/off contrast. Finding the perfect filter to allow you to use max red green and blue would give you a contrast figure close to the advertised figure, but finding the perfect filter was unlikely (the FL-Day was a good compromise and easy to find).

With Sim2s secondary colours in the color wheel, as Mr Roser mentioned, the magenta segment pulls the green and blue in (I guess in a similar way the FL-Day does), but as it isn't in the light path all the time like a filter, the amount of light reduction is less and the colour temp is now around 6800k, with only minor tweaking required/recalibrating to get it to D65. Brilliant innovation IMHO and seems such a simple idea I wonder why no one thought of it before. Some manufacturers had larger red segments in their colour wheels to increase the red spectrum so they had the right idea but maybe adding secondaries isn't as easy to implement as it seems.

Gary

Nice post Garry, thanks. I think others will be using this soon enough. Sim2 were just first out the gate.

Thanks Jim. Never new it was quite that much, it is however readily noticeable. Even by eye, comparing to 750, it was well over 1000.

Wow, 1000 lumens on my 126" Dalite HP would make ~ 50 ftL, probably too much even for me! The 380 is the one whose development I will follow.

For anyone interested, I posted some HT5000/ISCOIII/14ft screen images in the big boys forum in a new thread.

big boys forum?

big boys forum?


Hi End :)

Elitism in the $3000 forum...XD

I'm confused, I thought this was the big boys forum?

This is the big girl's forum

I'm confused, I thought this was the big boys forum?

+$20,000 Forum. ;)

All the HT5000 image versions are over on the $20k forum now.

With Sim2s secondary colours in the color wheel, as Mr Roser mentioned, the magenta segment pulls the green and blue in (I guess in a similar way the FL-Day does), but as it isn't in the light path all the time like a filter, the amount of light reduction is less and the colour temp is now around 6800k, with only minor tweaking required/recalibrating to get it to D65. Brilliant innovation IMHO and seems such a simple idea I wonder why no one thought of it before. Some manufacturers had larger red segments in their colour wheels to increase the red spectrum so they had the right idea but maybe adding secondaries isn't as easy to implement as it seems.


You might want to add to that the effect of the unishape lamp being able to dim the lamp for each segment of the color wheel, to maximize efficiency. It's explained here:

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/Tools_%26_Services/Downloads/UNISHAPE/what_is_UNISHAPE_p/Unishape_Presentation.pdf

So you can vary the light output on this projector ??

Anyone know the lumens on full brightness vs the dimmest settings ??

So you can vary the light output on this projector ??

Anyone know the lumens on full brightness vs the dimmest settings ??

Hes talking about per segment and sub segment modulation.

Oh, I thought you could control the lamp brightness, like you can on the C3X.

The lamp modulation is similar to an iris but on a per segment basis, so a dark image will have a lower lamp output than a brighter scene. Not sure how bright elements in a dark scene will look compared to a native high on/capable pj, but I would think high native still has the edge.

Gary

OK, well apparently the 3000 HOST is dimmable then, and I guess the 3000e is not, right ??

This sounds like you can dim the bulb, it is the HOST Specs:

LIGHT ENGINE
Technology: 1 chip DMD 0,95” 1080p DarkChip4™
Resolution: 1920 x 1080 pixels
Lamp power & life time*: 200W dimmable to 160W, 4000 hours*

The 3000e has the same 200W to 160W adjustment.

The 3000e has the same 200W to 160W adjustment.

Ahh, OK thanks, I was thinking it did.

-- Cain

Hi Gary,

How are you, we havnt met up in a while? I am going to hazard a guess as to how the modulation of the lamp works. This is purely my own speculation at present. But the color wheel has blank areas between the colors known as spokes. My idea is that the lamp is synchronised with the spokes so it switches off at the spoke and on at the color window. Its like the old first world war method for firing bullets through a propeller by syncing the spaces with the firing. The lamp modulated in this way might bring down the amount of stray light knocking around in the projector that would normally find its way onto the screen bringing up the black level. Limiting stray light in this way would darken the blacks without having to dim the lamp in low contrast scenes. Well, I've no idea if this really would work or is the method used, but it sounds plausable to me at least.

Best Wishes,

Paul H

Hi Paul,

Yes, long time no see - we must all meet up again sometime for a chinwag. :)

The DMD switches off and on during spoke time as far as I know, but if the lamp could do it as well that could certainly make a difference I would think.

Gary

Hi Gary,

How are you, we havnt met up in a while? I am going to hazard a guess as to how the modulation of the lamp works. This is purely my own speculation at present. But the color wheel has blank areas between the colors known as spokes. My idea is that the lamp is synchronised with the spokes so it switches off at the spoke and on at the color window. Its like the old first world war method for firing bullets through a propeller by syncing the spaces with the firing. The lamp modulated in this way might bring down the amount of stray light knocking around in the projector that would normally find its way onto the screen bringing up the black level. Limiting stray light in this way would darken the blacks without having to dim the lamp in low contrast scenes. Well, I've no idea if this really would work or is the method used, but it sounds plausable to me at least.

Best Wishes,

Paul H

It actually works in a very different way to that, and is a modulation matrix of 3 signals. Its explained, as it already has been in this thread, here

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/Tools_%26_Services/Downloads/UNISHAPE/what_is_UNISHAPE_p/Unishape_Presentation.pdf

The lamp modulation is similar to an iris but on a per segment basis, so a dark image will have a lower lamp output than a brighter scene. Not sure how bright elements in a dark scene will look compared to a native high on/capable pj, but I would think high native still has the edge.

Gary

Its actually not like an iris. one component of the mod matrix IS dynamic dimming but this actually has less effect overall than the variable plateau and lo pulse signals. See the link above.

I would think the effect would be similar - one dims the lamp and reduces the lumens for a dark scene, the other reduces lumens by closing the iris. There's obviously a big difference in the mechanics but the goal is the same.

Gary

No Gary. The dynamic dimming, which does do that, is only one of three parts of the mod matrix and does not work at the segment level. The segmental (variable plateau) and sub segmental (low pulse) signals are for totally different purposes altogether. It also allows for custom user selectable waveforms to bias for brightness and color authority

Read the link above for more info.

Hi Coldmachine,

Where do you get your information from?? You must have a spy deep in the SIM2 ranks I shouldnt wonder. Anyway, you seem to have represented the strengths of the Sim projectors far more effectively than many of us 'older war horse' Sim admirers in past threads long forgotten. Great job.

Best Wishes,

Paul H

Hi Coldmachine,

Where do you get your information from?? You must have a spy deep in the SIM2 ranks I shouldnt wonder. Anyway, you seem to have represented the strengths of the Sim projectors far more effectively than many of us 'older war horse' Sim admirers in past threads long forgotten. Great job.

Best Wishes,

Paul H

Hi Paul,
I just have a very well placed friend. I Look forward to exchanging with you in the future.

OK, so dynamic dimming is like an iris (does it actually mean per scene or does it really mean per frame? Per frame seems more likely), as the literature says it replaces the need for a mechanical aperture (iris). The variable plateau is for correcting the UHP lamps red deficiency (no mention of the implementation of the secondaries but it can still work the same), and the low pulse mode reduces the amount of dither, since a low lamp mode can dim a colour in the same way dithering it can. Simple. :)

How does low pulse mode take into account different shades in the same segment? If one pixel is half red and an adjacent pixel is full red, it would have to supply a full lamp for the full red pixel and still dither for the darker shades of red wouldn't it?

Gary

OK, so dynamic dimming is like an iris (does it actually mean per scene or does it really mean per frame? Per frame seems more likely), as the literature says it replaces the need for a mechanical aperture (iris). The variable plateau is for correcting the UHP lamps red deficiency (no mention of the implementation of the secondaries but it can still work the same), and the low pulse mode reduces the amount of dither, since a low lamp mode can dim a colour in the same way dithering it can. Simple. :)

Gary

Thats about it in a nutshell.

All 3 signals form a modulation matrix but there is also the ability for the user to select waveforms from a wavetable to bias the process, to give max light for example, at the expense of some color control. This may be desirable for presentations. There is also a contrast biasing setting and best color options. The terminology of scene/frame is not that of film. Its per frame in film terms.

I'm not sure regarding the second part.

When will 3000E get the DC4 ?
What does the 3000E do with a 24p input ?


btw is the C3X1080 shipped with DC4 ?

I'm looking at a model for my living room setup. 110" wide. 1.3 gain screen. I need a lot of lumens. Before I thought only the c3x is capable. Now looks like the 3000E is okay too. But I dun mind if the c3x1080 is only 2x the 3000e street. What would u do if u r in my shoe ?

Thanks for ur help.

While they're both great machines if cost is no object the C3X will give you more lumens, around 2k out of the box and all the advantages that 3 chip give you. The 3000e of course is no slouch either with a 200 vs 250 w UHP bulb and should give you plenty of brightness at that screen size.

Check out this great thread Bob Sorel put up for calculating what you should expect based on your screen size, gain, and throw : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753497&page=1

C3X 1080 is shipping with DC4 now, not sure about 3000e. Speculation is mid next year possible but the word is the 5000 will get it around then and so may the 3000e.

3000e accepts 24p OK.

darryl b-

Here is a breakdown of the unofficial names for the projector forums:

$20,000+ = Big Boys Forum

$3000+ = Big Boy Wannabe Forum

Under $3000 = Toy Projector Forum

:D

TA

Question: Where Sim2's specifications for the 3000E state "+/- 6 deg" as the vertical offset, do I take this to mean the center of the lens must be placed within the vertical span that is plus or minus 6 degrees from a line level with the top of the screen image? In other words, given a 24 ft projection distance (assuming T2 lens) the center of the lens would need to be positioned to within 30" above or below the line level with the top of the image. Is this correct?

Just got my Benq W10000 calibrated final numbers were on/off 4786:1 and ansi contrast 511:1 2.2 Gamma how does the 3000e compare to that im looking at the T2 lens to use with my Isco III?

Just got my Benq W10000 calibrated final numbers were on/off 4786:1 and ansi contrast 511:1 2.2 Gamma how does the 3000e compare to that im looking at the T2 lens to use with my Isco III?

The number you quote are very good for a Benq W10000. Based on Coldmachine report I would say that you should get north of 6500:1 with the 3000e. Full control on the colors if you get it profesionnaly calibrated with the CMS. The most significant difference would be brightness. I don't know how much lumens you got out of your Benq but the 3000e would be in the 1000 lumens.

Bruno

The number you quote are very good for a Benq W10000. Based on Coldmachine report I would say that you should get north of 6500:1 with the 3000e. Full control on the colors if you get it profesionnaly calibrated with the CMS. The most significant difference would be brightness. I don't know how much lumens you got out of your Benq but the 3000e would be in the 1000 lumens.

Bruno

Being realistic, you can expect....6500:1, 700ANSI and 1100L all at a calibrated D65 and a velvet bag. Its worth pointing out when talking about increased ANSI performance that very few rooms will be able to take advantage of it. A light colored room may only yield an ANSI of 100 or so.

Being realistic, you can expect....6500:1, 700ANSI and 1100L all at a calibrated D65 and a velvet bag. Its worth pointing out when talking about increased ANSI performance that very few rooms will be able to take advantage of it. A light colored room may only yield an ANSI of 100 or so.

CM, very interesting comment. Related to this I have a question (totally a novice wanting info, no agenda!). My room is certainly not the ideal HT batcave, but it is not bad: a former master bedroom in a 1920's house (14x17), with black cloth on the ceiling (and dark wall hangings on the side walls) about 8 ft out over and around the screen, and dark drapes on white doors, etc. I currently have a RS1 on a 126" diag Dalite HP, and like it very much. The HT380, however, has intrigued me as a possible 'next projector', so the question is: would I see the benefit of the ~ 2x greater ANSI CR of the HT380 (or 3000e) in a room of this nature? I understand that you can't give an absolute yes or no w/o knowing the room more precisely, but the general question is, in a 'pretty good' room, will one see enhanced PQ from the 600-700 ANSI CR of the SIM2 compared to the ~ 250-300 ANSI of a RS1? I.e., does the higher ANSI still help even in a room of more modest characteristics? Or is it a waste of resources to pay for 'super ANSI CR' with anything other than the perfect blackout room?

CM, very interesting comment. Related to this I have a question (totally a novice wanting info, no agenda!). My room is certainly not the ideal HT batcave, but it is not bad: a former master bedroom in a 1920's house (14x17), with black cloth on the ceiling (and dark wall hangings on the side walls) about 8 ft out over and around the screen, and dark drapes on white doors, etc. I currently have a RS1 on a 126" diag Dalite HP, and like it very much. The HT380, however, has intrigued me as a possible 'next projector', so the question is: would I see the benefit of the ~ 2x greater ANSI CR of the HT380 (or 3000e) in a room of this nature? I understand that you can't give an absolute yes or no w/o knowing the room more precisely, but the general question is, in a 'pretty good' room, will one see enhanced PQ from the 600-700 ANSI CR of the SIM2 compared to the ~ 250-300 ANSI of a RS1? I.e., does the higher ANSI still help even in a room of more modest characteristics? Or is it a waste of resources to pay for 'super ANSI CR' with anything other than the perfect blackout room?

I was conversing with a guy who went to the 380 from the RS1 since I too am considering the 380 and he said the 380 has more depth (his room isn't perfect) in the higher apl scenes but seemed to imply it wasn't a huuuuuge diff, at least to him. Take that for what it's worth. I'm sure CM will say otherwise but again, take what he says for what it's worth.

It is safe to say that even in a pretty good room you'll benefit from the higher ansi CR but not as much as in the "perfect" room.

I understand that you can't give an absolute yes or no w/o knowing the room more precisely, but the general question is, in a 'pretty good' room, will one see enhanced PQ from the 600-700 ANSI CR of the SIM2 compared to the ~ 250-300 ANSI of a RS1? I.e., does the higher ANSI still help even in a room of more modest characteristics? Or is it a waste of resources to pay for 'super ANSI CR' with anything other than the perfect blackout room?

In rough terms, you will get the majority of the benefit of an ideal room by having at least mid colors. The most important areas are the sides and ceiling. Have your your PJ project a pure white screen. The areas where you see the most light on the walls are the ones to pat attention to.

It is safe to say that even in a pretty good room you'll benefit from the higher ansi CR but not as much as in the "perfect" room.

Any given room, and its attendant viewing conditions will have an absolute maximum that it can yield. If a room has an ANSI yield of say 200 it will display no benefit from a machine of 201 ANSI let alone a 700 ANSI PJ. You don't benefit proportionally at all, no sliding scale. Your room will yield it or not.

There is a similar thing with the fades to black on very high CR machines, the screen can only be as dark as the room allows. Any ambient light will fix the black floor to that level and thus reduce the native CR massively. Its very common on here to see people rave about these figures when it blatantly obvious they can never actually see the benefit of said specifications. Marketers have been very successful in selling machines to the number obsessed who would have attained the same image with a less expensive machine.

Hope this helps and is of interest

Good luck.

If only we could see a great picture without light bouncing off or coming from the screen anywhere except into our eyes.

Measuring maximum HT ANSI without a projector is next to impossible. So you actually need a projector with a higher ANSI than the room and then you ave to know for certain the ANSI of the projector which is probably not accurate considering how whom ever speced the unit came up with the specs in the first. The test conditions probably were not ideal in the first place.

There is a similar thing with the fades to black on very high CR machines, the screen can only be as dark as the room allows. Any ambient light will fix the black floor to that level and thus reduce the native CR massively.
It's much more common for us to be able to max our fade-to-black level, as our PJs are usually our only source of light. However, as soon as you have anything bright on the screen at all (star field, candle, etc), those same blacks will wash out.
I have this problem with my system because it's a small living room and anything darker on the walls than cream, makes it seem claustrophobic. I've tried.

Re ANSI - we're always talking about ANSI like it's a useful measure, but it's only one measure of intra-scene contrast (50% white, 50% black). I don't have the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if people with light rooms could indeed benefit from DLP intra-scene contrast in high APL scenes.

Any given room, and its attendant viewing conditions will have an absolute maximum that it can yield. If a room has an ANSI yield of say 200 it will display no benefit from a machine of 201 ANSI let alone a 700 ANSI PJ. You don't benefit proportionally at all, no sliding scale. Your room will yield it or not.

There is a similar thing with the fades to black on very high CR machines, the screen can only be as dark as the room allows. Any ambient light will fix the black floor to that level and thus reduce the native CR massively. Its very common on here to see people rave about these figures when it blatantly obvious they can never actually see the benefit of said specifications. Marketers have been very successful in selling machines to the number obsessed who would have attained the same image with a less expensive machine.

Hope this helps and is of interest

Good luck.

Yes, it 'helps and is of interest'! So, with the given black level of your room, the only way to increase on/off CR is to increase the white level, ie., the lumens, right? Or a screen with more gain?

Yes, it 'helps and is of interest'! So, with the given black level of your room, the only way to increase on/off CR is to increase the white level, ie., the lumens, right? Or a screen with more gain?

We then get into the interesting area of the eyes Contrast Sensitivity Function.

If you were to brighten a PJ in a perfect black room you would increase CR. The same could be achieved by halving the black level.

Lets say we have a perfect PJ in a perfect black room. Assume CR to be very high, such that the black level was very low. It would be possible to half the black level and thus double the CR and it not even be a visible improvement despite the spec sheet. The same could be achieved by doubling the Lumen figure and it would be instantly noticeable. There is far more to this subject than many assume. LED arrays ,in both PJs and TVs, have the ability to give astronomical CR figures, and are just around the corner.

Bump -- Anyone Know this?

Question: Where Sim2's specifications for the 3000E state "+/- 6 deg" as the vertical offset, do I take this to mean the center of the lens must be placed within the vertical span that is plus or minus 6 degrees from a line level with the top of the screen image? In other words, given a 24 ft projection distance (assuming T2 lens) the center of the lens would need to be positioned to within 30" above or below the line level with the top of the image. Is this correct?

No. It means the projector (lens center) can be placed either 6% of your screen height above the top of the screen, or below the bottom of the screen, or anywhere in between. The distance of the proj from the screen is irrelevant.

For example, if you have a 100% diagonal screen, the screen height is roughly 50", so you could place the proj (lens center) either 3" above the top of the screen, or 3" below the bottom of the screen or anywhere in between.

Any given room, and its attendant viewing conditions will have an absolute maximum that it can yield. If a room has an ANSI yield of say 200 it will display no benefit from a machine of 201 ANSI let alone a 700 ANSI PJ. You don't benefit proportionally at all, no sliding scale. Your room will yield it or not.


No. Light is additive and a projector with higher ANSI CR will result in higher ANSI CR on the screen. However, the more reflective the room and/or the higher the ambient light, the less the improvement from a higher projector ANSI CR. With really bad rooms, the improvement becomes very small and negligible.

...the spec is +/- 6 degrees, not 6 percent.

Any given room, and its attendant viewing conditions will have an absolute maximum that it can yield. If a room has an ANSI yield of say 200 it will display no benefit from a machine of 201 ANSI let alone a 700 ANSI PJ. You don't benefit proportionally at all, no sliding scale. Your room will yield it or not.


No. Light is additive and a projector with higher ANSI CR will result in higher ANSI CR on the screen. However, the more reflective the room and/or the higher the ambient light, the less the improvement from a higher projector ANSI CR. With really bad rooms, the improvement becomes very small and negligible.

Thats true, but the absolute candle figure of the added light will massively effect the ratio as it raises the black level. We are saying close to the same thing, but the improvement offered by higher ANSI machines follows an inverse arithmetic progressive series i.e 1/4, 1/4, 1/8 relative to both figures. The figure will increase infinitely but in progressively smaller numbers and for the sake of pragmatism, represents no real gain. I oversimplified for the sake of brevity.

The spec is in error. It should read percent, not degrees.

No. It means the projector (lens center) can be placed either 6% of your screen height above the top of the screen, or below the bottom of the screen, or anywhere in between.

.. without inverting it ... ? so it can be shelf mounted ?

Yes. It can be shelf mounted without inverting it.

CM, very interesting comment. Related to this I have a question (totally a novice wanting info, no agenda!). My room is certainly not the ideal HT batcave, but it is not bad: a former master bedroom in a 1920's house (14x17), with black cloth on the ceiling (and dark wall hangings on the side walls) about 8 ft out over and around the screen, and dark drapes on white doors, etc. I currently have a RS1 on a 126" diag Dalite HP, and like it very much. The HT380, however, has intrigued me as a possible 'next projector', so the question is: would I see the benefit of the ~ 2x greater ANSI CR of the HT380 (or 3000e) in a room of this nature? I understand that you can't give an absolute yes or no w/o knowing the room more precisely, but the general question is, in a 'pretty good' room, will one see enhanced PQ from the 600-700 ANSI CR of the SIM2 compared to the ~ 250-300 ANSI of a RS1? I.e., does the higher ANSI still help even in a room of more modest characteristics? Or is it a waste of resources to pay for 'super ANSI CR' with anything other than the perfect blackout room?

You can measure the reflectivity of your room by putting up a checkerboard pattern and measuring the decrease in ANSi contrast over what you read when you meaure it with a black shield in front of the lens. You go back to the screen and you measure the contrast and record the ftlamberts on the 100 percent Ire section and on the black section. Than you take the what the ideal ansi contrast is divided into the measurement of the 100IRE. You subtract that from what you measured in the black section. the difference is the light scattered back from the room onto the screen and because half the screen is covered by black squares you multiply that number by 2 and then divide that by the 100IRE number you measured at the screen. That percentage is your room's reflectivity. If its greater than .005 or >.5% one half of one percent than the difference in ANSI contrast between the projectors will be a mute point.

The Simht380 will look sharper than the JVC because it has better optics, better processing and will not suffer from any convergent problems. the Color is more accurate and the unishape lamp makes it look like Xenon. Its d65 lumen output is 700 vs 450 lumens for the RS2 or 550 for the RS1

The JVC has much blacker blacks so the intra scene contrast ratio for indoor sceens will be better. It is a 3 chip so your eye will integrate the colors 3 times longer than the Sim so the colors ,even though they will be less accurate than the Sim will appear richer especially in the dark scenes. It will of course have no color Artifacts and no dither noise and it will be much more relaxing for the eyes to look at. You will suffer very little eye fatique viewing a LCOS projected image than when viewing a DLP projector. Most flight simulators use LCOS instead of DLP because of this but of course , pilots are in those simulators for 8 hours a day. Finally LCOS looks more like film because it modulates intensity like film does to get varying gray scales as opposed to DLP which varies intensity by pulse code modulation. When people talk about LCOS images they describe them as smooth and film like. Because the image is twice as bright , and because the fusion threshold , the frequency which you notice flicker goes up as the brightness increases , it is not surprising that more people will see Rainbows in the new Sim projectors then they would in a dimmer projector and more people even if they do not see rainbows will suffer from eye strain.

Im still trying to make up my mind but I will not make a decision until I view each separately for at least an hour , looking at movies I am extremely familiar with. The difference in ANSI contrast will have no bearing I what projector I choose.

The Simht380 will look sharper than the JVC because it has better optics, better processing and will not suffer from any convergent problems.

I believe the Sim2 and JVC models use Fujinon lenses. There will be a difference in optical specification just to cover differences in the PJ spec i.e. zoom and H/V shift range etc.

There should be no issue with MC on mono chip DLP however my HT380 exhibited significant (but within Sim2 spec) CA and this can appear very similar to MC.

D

Even with that amount of CA, the JVC is definitely less sharp. Lines will not get that sharp on a JVC Dazzer.

You will notice this when doing focus patterns with HT380 vs others projectors with lesser optics.

Even with that amount of CA, the JVC is definitely less sharp. Lines will not get that sharp on a JVC Dazzer.

You will notice this when doing focus patterns with HT380 vs others projectors with lesser optics.

Fredrik

I think DLP pixels in general appear more deliniated than other techs. I'm not suggesting that the JVC is perceived as sharp or sharper than the Sim2. Just that niether is perfect and there appear to be variences between units.

I appreciate perception and expecation varies from person to person. :)

D

OT: A couple of weeks ago I noticed while browsing perpendicular to my HT that my glasses when looking almost straight left or right introduced CA ;) Straight to the front no CA though :)

On Topic: During a shootout session a couple of weeks ago there was a D80E and a JVC RS1/HD1 on shootout. Even there it was not even a close call on optics, the Sim2 was so much sharper.

This works beneficial when you have good video material with nice detail level. Subtle texture details on clothing, skin etc. can get lost on the JVC.. When having scenes with movement the JVC again lost even more detail, don't know the cause though, it could be in the processing. On several setups it also seems the JVC introduce a slight input lag / judder in which I haven't seen pronounced in other PJ setups.

This goes to say that optics alone doesnt cover what you see on screen whether still or moving, the processing of the unit can greatly affect the end result on film and broadcasts.

OT: A couple of weeks ago I noticed while browsing perpendicular to my HT that my glasses when looking almost straight left or right introduced CA ;) Straight to the front no CA though :)

On Topic: During a shootout session a couple of weeks ago there was a D80E and a JVC RS1/HD1 on shootout. Even there it was not even a close call on optics, the Sim2 was so much sharper.

This works beneficial when you have good video material with nice detail level. Subtle texture details on clothing, skin etc. can get lost on the JVC.. When having scenes with movement the JVC again lost even more detail, don't know the cause though, it could be in the processing. On several setups it also seems the JVC introduce a slight input lag / judder in which I haven't seen pronounced in other PJ setups.

This goes to say that optics alone doesnt cover what you see on screen whether still or moving, the processing of the unit can greatly affect the end result on film and broadcasts.

Fredrik

I've owned both and so I'm not sure who you're trying to convince. If you're happy with the HT380 that's want counts. :) For me the RBE was just too much of an issue that outweighed any of the benefits.

D

I believe the Sim2 and JVC models use Fujinon lenses. There will be a difference in optical specification just to cover differences in the PJ spec i.e. zoom and H/V shift range etc.

There should be no issue with MC on mono chip DLP however my HT380 exhibited significant (but within Sim2 spec) CA and this can appear very similar to MC.

D
As an optical engineer ,I am perplexed, after posting I came across a description of the JVC and it mentioned the Fujinon lens the JVC used and it mentioned that it was made up of 13 lenses and 16 elements. That is a lot of glass and more than enough to achieve resolutions which should not degrade the image at all but when you read reviews at least two of them mention the CA, and limiting resolution. Now Fujinon is a great lens manufacturer so the lack of resolution and color aberration should not becoming from the zoom lens. It could be a convergence problem or it could be they chose a lens which was not fully corrected for the dichroic beamsplitter. or it could be that their not careful enough when thay align and assemble the optical system or could be the reviewers are full of crap.

Greg R. posted or wrote that the lens coatings were not correct causing I think the red grid to deviate in convergence or focus (I don't rememmber) in the extremeties

I'm not sure if this basic review of the HT3000E from the UK magazine Home Cinema Choice has been posted already.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=7440

D

That is a lot of glass and more than enough to achieve resolutions which should not degrade the image at all but when you read reviews at least two of them mention the CA, and limiting resolution. Now Fujinon is a great lens manufacturer so the lack of resolution and color aberration should not becoming from the zoom lens. It could be a convergence problem or it could be they chose a lens which was not fully corrected for the dichroic beamsplitter.

Why would that cause the CA as shown in the photo's of the Sim2 I posted above ? There are no panels and therefore no possibility of MC. If CA limits resolution as suggested then is it reasonable to assume in does this on any PJ that exhibits the phenomenon ?

D

Why would that cause the CA as shown in the photo's of the Sim2 I posted above ? There are no panels and therefore no possibility of MC. If CA limits resolution as suggested then is it reasonable to assume in does this on any PJ that exhibits the phenomenon ?

D

Good point. On the 3 chip projectors if they have not used a lens which corrects for the introduction of the glass element thickness ,even if they have chosen a lens with a long back focal length ,if it has not been designed for insertions of a glass path of say 10mm it will introduce aberrations.

on the single chip Sim even the thin color wheel ma introduce enough color distortion to see what you have shown. There are two types of color abberrations one is effectivley a defocus Ie. the color spot is blurred and the other is a color distortion where the colors are focused but laterally displaced.

What I suspect is that each projection manufacturer is nor producing enough projectors to have special lens designed to correct for all aberrations introduced into their particular configuration so they buy very good projection lenses that were designed for film cameras and put them in their systems and thus get the results you see.

also lets look at what the color distortion specifications have to be to get a distortion of less than one pixel on a 1980 pixel screen. that is one part in 1000 or a .1 percent distortion number at full field Good MTF at 40line pairs is not that hard ,not easy but not hard but a .1 percent distortion number after manufacturing . thats a bitch.

my HT380 exhibited significant (but within Sim2 spec) CA and this can appear very similar to MC.


wow dazz this just look broken. sim2 claimed "within spec" ... ? :eek:

.. I mean the cheap ultra short throw presentation PJ I have in the office has better CA than that ...

Is the 3000e having the same lens as the 380 ?

Greg R. posted or wrote that the lens coatings were not correct causing I think the red grid to deviate in convergence or focus (I don't rememmber) in the extremeties

The lens coatings will have absolutely no effect on focus or convergence. They may introduce ghost images which come from the reflections on lens surfaces that have poor antireflection coatings.

Is the full CMS software (Sim2 Live Color Management) going to be downloadable soon for the Sim2 single chips?

It could be a convergence problem or it could be they chose a lens which was not fully corrected for the dichroic beamsplitter. or it could be that their not careful enough when thay align and assemble the optical system or could be the reviewers are full of crap.

Is it possible the malady we see is not an optical fault, but is something peculiar being caused by cabling or signal processing?

Is it possible the malady we see is not an optical fault, but is something peculiar being caused by cabling or signal processing?


The problem I observed on the HT380 (photos posted above) appear on the PJ's internal test patterns also without any source/cable attached. The other issue is the phenomenon varies across the image area i.e. worse toward the outside of the screen and this suggest to me that it's optical not signal related.

D

The setup for the SIM2 HT380 for color n.1 have a option: native - HDTV etc. option 2 for the white is D65 - D75 etc. but like active the option n. 2 ?

Andrea

Good Year

Is the full CMS software (Sim2 Live Color Management) going to be downloadable soon for the Sim2 single chips?

"Live Colors Management" is the onboard adjustments. The CMS is called "Live Colors Calibration". I know its confusing, but what can you do, ay.

According to greg R., CA can be caused by improper lens coatings, causing one color to appear to be misconverged. he noted this problem in his RS1 review.

Those of you who seen the C3Xe 720p and 3000e 1080p which one would you prefer in your Home Theater?

c3x;)

Those of you who seen the C3Xe 720p and 3000e 1080p which one would you prefer in your Home Theater?

C3Xe. Too many rainbows for me on the 3000e. :)

D

Those of you who seen the C3Xe 720p and 3000e 1080p which one would you prefer in your Home Theater?

If your seating distance is such that the 720 resolution is not an issue then the C3Xe is the winner for me. The standard C3X is a special machine and is far brighter than the HT3000e and the C3X1080. I've seen both back to back.

Is the full CMS software (Sim2 Live Color Management) going to be downloadable soon for the Sim2 single chips?

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