I'm using a new i1 Display LT and HCFR to cal my Sammy HL-S, but at higher light levels (over a Y of 100 or so) its measures slow down ALOT, and if it's high enough, it'll stop responding altogether. At lower light levels, all the way down to black, it's great. About one reading per second or so and it's like that until I get up higher brightness. The weird thing is is if I unplug it, and plug it back in, I'll get a couple of good readings, and then it'll lock up again. I can't even stop the continuous measures. If I'm right on the edge of it locking up, it'll give me a few good readings a couple of seconds apart, pause for about 20 seconds or so, report a totally bogus reading, and then report good readings a few more times. Has anyone else encountered this, or do I have a bum sensor? I got it from an Amazon reseller so I should be able to send it back.

It's not your sensor. There is a known synchronization problem at higher light levels between the D2 and HCFR on plasmas, yours is the 1st report I've seen for DLP. The authors know about it and I hope they will fix it in the next version.

Actually I've been reading up on it today in the HCFR thread. My sendor is exhibiting the exact same symptoms as the others, only under slightly different circumstances. I can change IRE targets from 0IRE up to about 50IRE (< Y = ~100) during continuous measures with no problem. The problem begins to manifest itself as I go higher, and definitely gets worse with the amount of luminance. Over Y = ~200 it's pretty useless. I can get one or two accurate measure, then it locks. I can unplug it, stop the measures and close the error window, plug it back in, and I can get another measure or two. I'm thinking about closing the iris as far as I can, doing the cal, then opening it back up when I'm done.

I've read that CalMAN has the same issue though, and they claim to have implemented the sensor directly from the SDK, so is it really a software issue, or is it a driver issue? I'm have the latest drivers from X-rite loaded on my machine (v2.40 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=789&Action=Support&SoftwareID=768)) and I'm using the eyeone.dll that's included with the latest version of i1Match (v3.6.2 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=789&Action=Support&SoftwareID=724)). My display is a Samsung HL-S5087W, source is a PS3 with 1080p cal targets from HERE (http://www.w6rz.net/).

BTW, could you shoot me your D2 correction matrix? I can't seem to find it in the Pioneer Elite thread. (Nice work on that by the way.)

Actually I've been reading up on it today in the HCFR thread. My sendor is exhibiting the exact same symptoms as the others, only under slightly different circumstances. I can change IRE targets from 0IRE up to about 50IRE (< Y = ~100) during continuous measures with no problem. The problem begins to manifest itself as I go higher, and definitely gets worse with the amount of luminance. Over Y = ~200 it's pretty useless. I can get one or two accurate measure, then it locks. I can unplug it, stop the measures and close the error window, plug it back in, and I can get another measure or two. I'm thinking about closing the iris as far as I can, doing the cal, then opening it back up when I'm done.

I've read that CalMAN has the same issue though, and they claim to have implemented the sensor directly from the SDK, so is it really a software issue, or is it a driver issue? I'm have the latest drivers from X-rite loaded on my machine (v2.40 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=789&Action=Support&SoftwareID=768)) and I'm using the eyeone.dll that's included with the latest version of i1Match (v3.6.2 (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=789&Action=Support&SoftwareID=724)). My display is a Samsung HL-S5087W, source is a PS3 with 1080p cal targets from HERE (http://www.w6rz.net/).

BTW, could you shoot me your D2 correction matrix? I can't seem to find it in the Pioneer Elite thread. (Nice work on that by the way.)

That's been my experience, Y = 100 cd/m^2 is where the problem starts to get unmanageable. They are rated to much higher though, 3000 cd/m^2 so I've been assuming it's software related. I have a beta v2 version so I'll check and see if they've made any progress on this issue. You won't want to use the correction matrix on a DLP but the latest version is near the end of the shoot-out thread.

edit: checked beta version and problem still exists.

...You won't want to use the correction matrix on a DLP but the latest version is near the end of the shoot-out thread.

Why's that?

Why's that?

Because it only attempts to correct for the systematic error that has been measured and confirmed on plasmas. Each display technology emits a unique spectrum so any error the D2 has when measuring DLP's (if it has one) will not be the same as when measuring plasmas.

Neat.
Can you really see the difference after a calibration with and without the correction factors, or is it just one of those "get it as good as you can get it" type things?

Neat.
Can you really see the difference after a calibration with and without the correction factors, or is it just one of those "get it as good as you can get it" type things?

In the greyscale it's very subtle, but perceptible to me in the lowest IRE patterns. In setting the red primary location it is more noticeable.

I've read that CalMAN has the same issue though, and they claim to have implemented the sensor directly from the SDK, so is it really a software issue, or is it a driver issue?

We had a similar issue with v2.1 and have resolved it with v3.

Update...

I beleive that my symptoms are worsening, or I may have misunderstood the circumstances where they occur. I tried closing the iris on my Sammy last night so that all my measures would be at a lower luminance (Max Y was around 65) but it would still tend to lock whenever I put up a 100% red window target. I would have to open a 100% white target to get it to start responding again, stop the measures, open the red target, and then start them again to take my readings at which point it would be fine. I also think that either it's not reading something properly, because when I measure my primaries and secondaries and input into the CCA, my gamut is nearly perfect except for Cyan which is over .100 off in x and y. Either this sensor is messed up, or something's not configured properly in my display.

Does anyone know the differences in Getrag Macbeth software between the i1-LT and the D2? How can I upgrade? Not that it will make a difference with HCFR I know, but I use it to cal my PC monitors too.

Update...

I beleive that my symptoms are worsening, or I may have misunderstood the circumstances where they occur. I tried closing the iris on my Sammy last night so that all my measures would be at a lower luminance (Max Y was around 65) but it would still tend to lock whenever I put up a 100% red window target. I would have to open a 100% white target to get it to start responding again, stop the measures, open the red target, and then start them again to take my readings at which point it would be fine. I also think that either it's not reading something properly, because when I measure my primaries and secondaries and input into the CCA, my gamut is nearly perfect except for Cyan which is over .100 off in x and y. Either this sensor is messed up, or something's not configured properly in my display.

Does anyone know the differences in Getrag Macbeth software between the i1-LT and the D2? How can I upgrade? Not that it will make a difference with HCFR I know, but I use it to cal my PC monitors too.

Could be something going on between the D2 and DLP. Both plasmas and DLPs operate at very high frequencies compared to where this probe was designed to operate (LCD's and CRT's).

Update...

I beleive that my symptoms are worsening, or I may have misunderstood the circumstances where they occur. I tried closing the iris on my Sammy last night so that all my measures would be at a lower luminance (Max Y was around 65) but it would still tend to lock whenever I put up a 100% red window target. I would have to open a 100% white target to get it to start responding again, stop the measures, open the red target, and then start them again to take my readings at which point it would be fine. I also think that either it's not reading something properly, because when I measure my primaries and secondaries and input into the CCA, my gamut is nearly perfect except for Cyan which is over .100 off in x and y. Either this sensor is messed up, or something's not configured properly in my display.

Does anyone know the differences in Getrag Macbeth software between the i1-LT and the D2? How can I upgrade? Not that it will make a difference with HCFR I know, but I use it to cal my PC monitors too.

The meter itself is the same i1Display2 or LT. The i1Match3 software with the D2 has many more options than the LT version. You can upgrade your LT to a D2 that will unlock all of the i1Match3 options. It does nothing to the meter itself other than flag it to be able to use all of the i1Match3 options. http://usa.gretagmacbethstore.com/index.cfm/act/Catalog.cfm/catalogid/1873/Subcategory/Options%20%26%20Accessories/category/Eye-One/browse/null/MenuGroup/_Menu%20USA%20New/desc/Eye-One%20Monitor%20Module%20Upgrade%20code.htm

Derek,

Have you guys gotten the D2 to work on DLP's?

The meter itself is the same i1Display2 or LT. The i1Match3 software with the D2 has many more options than the LT version. You can upgrade your LT to a D2 that will unlock all of the i1Match3 options. It does nothing to the meter itself other than flag it to be able to use all of the i1Match3 options. http://usa.gretagmacbethstore.com/index.cfm/act/Catalog.cfm/catalogid/1873/Subcategory/Options%20%26%20Accessories/category/Eye-One/browse/null/MenuGroup/_Menu%20USA%20New/desc/Eye-One%20Monitor%20Module%20Upgrade%20code.htm

That's what I figured, and thanks for the link. I was wondering also because I noticed a smaller icon on the match3 software that looked like a CIE chart. Is that a manual reading mode? If it has a better connection with the sensor than HCFR, I can just use the raw numbers.

Derek,

Have you guys gotten the D2 to work on DLP's?

I was not aware we had a problem with DLP and the D2. My H79 is overdue for a tune-up so I will verify we still work on DLP, last time some 6 months ago it worked then. I calibrate my H79 at 60 and 48hz, never tried 72 the color wheel makes to much noise at that speed.

The HL-S has a refresh rate of 120Hz (1080P60 wobulated static naitive res), so should I try using CRT mode? I mean PC CRT's are capable of 120Hz scan rates, so the D2 should be able to lock to it, right? Or does it have more to do with the freq of the HID ballast? But that's like 20-30kHz I think. I'll try to get that to work tonight. I tried CRT mode once, but it gave me an error and I didn't persue it.

The HL-S has a refresh rate of 120Hz (1080P60 wobulated static naitive res), so should I try using CRT mode? I mean PC CRT's are capable of 120Hz scan rates, so the D2 should be able to lock to it, right? Or does it have more to do with the freq of the HID ballast? But that's like 20-30kHz I think. I'll try to get that to work tonight. I tried CRT mode once, but it gave me an error and I didn't persue it.

It's more like your color wheel speed times the rate each mirror can be turned on/off for each rev of the color wheel. So it ends up being a very fast pulsed light.

The HL-S has a refresh rate of 120Hz (1080P60 wobulated static naitive res), so should I try using CRT mode? I mean PC CRT's are capable of 120Hz scan rates, so the D2 should be able to lock to it, right? Or does it have more to do with the freq of the HID ballast? But that's like 20-30kHz I think. I'll try to get that to work tonight. I tried CRT mode once, but it gave me an error and I didn't persue it.

no, the effective frequencies of DLPs and plasmas are 10's of kHz due to the way they modulate intensity. To vary the intensity they use a technique called pulse-width modulation, each pixel is either on or off and the illusion of intensity variation is achieved by turning them on/off many times per frame.

I was not aware we had a problem with DLP and the D2. My H79 is overdue for a tune-up so I will verify we still work on DLP, last time some 6 months ago it worked then. I calibrate my H79 at 60 and 48hz, never tried 72 the color wheel makes to much noise at that speed.

sorry, the question should have been have you seen any previous problems with the D2 and DLP's similar to what you saw with plasmas.

no, the effective frequencies of DLPs and plasmas are 10's of kHz due to the way they modulate intensity. To vary the intensity they use a technique called pulse-width modulation, each pixel is either on or off and the illusion of intensity variation is achieved by turning them on/off many times per frame.

Ah, yeah that makes more sense. Hmmm... I wonder if there's a workaround for this... Maybe some type of "fluorescing filter" like the flourescent layer of an LCD or something. Some way to dampen the high frequency pulses to the sensor... Finding something like that that's also color neutral might pose a challenge, but I really have no idea. Don't LCD's modulate intensity through PWM as well though?

Don't LCD's modulate intensity through PWM as well though?

In LCDs the amount of light produced is changed by changing the polarization of the light with the liquid crystal in a continuous way so no, it's not modulated.

We had a similar issue with v2.1 and have resolved it with v3.

So was it resolved in your software, or by writing a custom driver? Or is that TMI?

sorry, the question should have been have you seen any previous problems with the D2 and DLP's similar to what you saw with plasmas.

The only problem I have seen or reported by our users was with CalMAN v2.1 the D2 and Plasma.

There is nothing wrong with the probes which you are using it is a software issue and nothing more! Calman has addressed this as well as Progressive Labs. There are a number of functions which HCFR is not implementing correctly from the SDK which greatly affect the accuracy of the measurements taken by the instrument.

There are a number of functions which HCFR is not implementing correctly from the SDK which greatly affect the accuracy of the measurements taken by the instrument.

Please be specific, which functions are not implemented correctly for which probes and exactly how do they affect accuracy. Vague information like that is of no use.

"FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative (and vague) information. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product"

Please be specific, which functions are not implemented correctly for which probes and exactly how do they affect accuracy. Vague information like that is of no use.


Sorry Zoyd it's meant to be vague because we are not going to help colorHCFR fix it's support for the D2 by telling them how to. Both us CalMAN and Progressive Labs have spent a considerable amount of time and money to make sure we support the hardware we say we do to it's fullest potential.

Sorry Zoyd it's meant to be vague because we are not going to help colorHCFR fix it's support for the D2 by telling them how to. Both us CalMAN and Progressive Labs have spent a considerable amount of time and money to make sure we support the hardware we say we do to it's fullest potential.

I'm not asking you to fix HCFR's D2 support, I'm asking ghibliss to stop implying that HCFR in general is inaccurate, which is not correct. If he had said, "Our software supports D2-CRT mode on plasmas and HCFR doesn't", I'd have no problem, but we all know that anyway. btw Derek, your posts are informative and not the least bit misleading.

Progressive labs software works with the D2 sensor? How much is it? All I'm seeing on their site is the C-5 bundle, and I don't see any prices for anything.

Are there any other programs that support the D2? Even if I could just read the xyY raw data I'd be happy.

armygreen.

The Progressive Labs package complete with the C-5 analyzer is currently priced at $2000.00. If you own a Display 2 which you would like to use with our software the software is sold separately for $1,000.00. We need to get the probe serial number from you to allow the software to communicate with your probe as it is password encoded as well as serialized in our package.

Zoyd,

I'm not asking you to fix HCFR's D2 support, I'm asking ghibliss to stop implying that HCFR in general is inaccurate, which is not correct. If he had said, "Our software supports D2-CRT mode on plasmas and HCFR doesn't", I'd have no problem, but we all know that anyway. btw Derek, your posts are informative and not the least bit misleading.

Since I am licensed with GretagMacbeth/X-Rite I am not allowed to simply divulge information contained in their SDK as this is part of the agreement with them. As far as what you know doesn't work and my comments I simply tried to point out as much as I can without breaking contractual obligations that the issue is one involving coding errors and is not the fault of the probe itself. I do not see how you find this to be so offensive and I have made no statements to the effect that HCFR is inaccurate. I have simply stated that there are issues with the software due to a lack of familiarity with the SDK on the part of the developers of this product which are contributing to the errors which users of this thread have mentioned. Advising the users that the filter enhancement will not correct the problem and that the developers need to look elsewhere to correct the problem should not be taken as a negative comment.

I do not see why you feel that Derek and I should be providing free development time and solutions for the HCFR team so that they may provide a more competitive product for users to download for free! Our software development has an associated cost attached to it with design, testing, etc. which takes considerable time and out of pocket expenses. Many users like the fact that products which they pay for come with support when needed and expect "updates" to be provided in a timely manner. Free software generally provides a basic package for users which is limited in scope and sometimes has a number of issues which may or not be resolved. These issues take a much longer time frame to be sorted out as the developers perform this on their own time as they are not compensated for it.

Your requests for data to add to your spreadsheet when I provide comments on what I feel is pertinent to the thread are generally honored. You often expect to receive a wide range of display data which I do not provide you with as I am not on the HCFR development staff! My comments in the thread are in most cases backed up with data such as graphs and data taken from our logging software to demonstrate what our findings are on a particular issue. The thread is for the benefit of all those that care to read it and take from it whatever they feel is helpful.

The Progressive Labs package complete with the C-5 analyzer is currently priced at $2000.00. If you own a Display 2 which you would like to use with our software the software is sold separately for $1,000.00.That's a teensy bit outa my price range, but thanks for the info.

Since I am licensed with GretagMacbeth/X-Rite I am not allowed to simply divulge information contained in their SDK as this is part of the agreement with them. As far as what you know doesn't work and my comments I simply tried to point out as much as I can without breaking contractual obligations that the issue is one involving coding errors and is not the fault of the probe itself. I do not see how you find this to be so offensive and I have made no statements to the effect that HCFR is inaccurate. I have simply stated that there are issues with the software due to a lack of familiarity with the SDK on the part of the developers of this product which are contributing to the errors which users of this thread have mentioned. Advising the users that the filter enhancement will not correct the problem and that the developers need to look elsewhere to correct the problem should not be taken as a negative comment.

I do not see why you feel that Derek and I should be providing free development time and solutions for the HCFR team so that they may provide a more competitive product for users to download for free! Our software development has an associated cost attached to it with design, testing, etc. which takes considerable time and out of pocket expenses. Many users like the fact that products which they pay for come with support when needed and expect "updates" to be provided in a timely manner. Free software generally provides a basic package for users which is limited in scope and sometimes has a number of issues which may or not be resolved. These issues take a much longer time frame to be sorted out as the developers perform this on their own time as they are not compensated for it.

Your requests for data to add to your spreadsheet when I provide comments on what I feel is pertinent to the thread are generally honored. You often expect to receive a wide range of display data which I do not provide you with as I am not on the HCFR development staff! My comments in the thread are in most cases backed up with data such as graphs and data taken from our logging software to demonstrate what our findings are on a particular issue. The thread is for the benefit of all those that care to read it and take from it whatever they feel is helpful.

I'm a cheapskate. I'm all for the free software, and I'm amazed at how nice HCFR really is and how well it does function. It's a great little program that has a few bugs, but hey, it's free. That's expected, especially when it's not open source (don't ask me why... it only seems logical) But from my standpoint, ghibliss, your first comment did sound like you were bashing a little, claiming that HCFR was inaccurate because you said "probes" not "Display2" which sounded like you were saying that it didn't work right with any sensor. However, I think you just meant that the implementation of the Eye-One Display sensor is incorrect. Although, I'm not sure how you would know that since the software isn't open source.

I personally think that the information you and whoever else from CalMAN / Progressive Labs have divulged from your own findings is more than gracious on your part when it is being used to help out with a freeware program that's taking potential buyers from your paid software. Business is business. I think that the last thing that supporters and "representatives" of the HCFR group need to be doing is looking a gift horse in the mouth. I really doubt that these guys are going to say, yeah this line of code is wrong, it should be this.. Go fix it and make your software an even bigger threat to my paycheck. Honestly I'm surprised that they're not bashing it more than they are.

But who am I? Just a dude with a TV.

T you said "probes" not "Display2" which sounded like you were saying that it didn't work right with any sensor. .

You didnt finish that sentence he wrote, he says probes which YOU ARE USING!!:)

probes to me he just seems to state all Display2's;)

Honestly I'm surprised that they're not bashing it more than they are.

But who am I? Just a dude with a TV.

They've tried here and there ever since it came out, in subtle and not so subtle ways, to infer that HCFR has some sort of fundamental accuracy problem. It's the same argument that's used to bash low-cost probes.

They've tried here and there ever since it came out, in subtle and not so subtle ways, to infer that HCFR has some sort of fundamental accuracy problem. It's the same argument that's used to bash low-cost probes.

Do you really blame them though? They are a business after all. If I was selling orange juice, and you came along and started giving away tang for free, don't you think I would try to sell my orange juice by telling people how much better it was for you, and how tang will rot your teeth?

Do you really blame them though? They are a business after all. If I was selling orange juice, and you came along and started giving away tang for free, don't you think I would try to sell my orange juice by telling people how much better it was for you, and how tang will rot your teeth?

Telling folks your product has more features, supports more probe modes, etc. is fine. Implying the other guy's will rot their teeth without evidence is not, it's just a scare tactic.

Telling folks your product has more features, supports more probe modes, etc. is fine. Implying the other guy's will rot their teeth without evidence is not, it's just a scare tactic. Yeah, but that's adveritising. I'd be really upset about it if they were pushing pharmacuticals to cancer patients by bashing holistic medicines, but they're selling "pro-sumer" electronics and software to people that can afford multi-thousand dollar HDTVs and home theaters. While their tactics may be unsavory, free enterprise is the american way and american entrepreneurs are out to make money. They ALL do it, but some are better at making you think that they aren't than others. The best we can do is to take the information that they and their fanboys give us with a grain of salt and teach others to do the same.

Well said Armygreen11

They've tried here and there ever since it came out, in subtle and not so subtle ways, to infer that HCFR has some sort of fundamental accuracy problem. It's the same argument that's used to bash low-cost probes.
Can we call a truce on this, or at least ask for a little more specificity as to who "they" refers to? :) We tried early on of pointing out in some painfully detailed methods what some of the issues were:

http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=343 (free registration required; please do not ever use black level compensation if you care about image fidelity)

I also pointed out in prior posts that there was no toggle for indicating whether the diffuser was attached to a D2 or i1 Pro. While certainly not the best diffusers available, the functionality that drives their use is an important piece of the SDK to faithfully implement. Whether you think it relevant or material is one thing. To call our stated misgivings as inference (I thought I was writing in relatively well-formed prose for a message board) and FUD is intellectually dishonest. The trail is there, and it is detailed.

HCFR won't rot your teeth and it won't give you cancer. I'll file those away for future use, though. ;) The vast majority of HCFR users won't ever be CalMAN users simply by virtue of the price we have to charge to cover our time (whether HCFR existed or not). However, we do like good code and accurate colors. To the extent that people think that we are being excessive in trying to point out where the HCFR team has opportunities to improve, well, we can happily refrain and just stick to our knitting. However, that does not mean we won't point these things out when asked. :)

Bill

The Progressive Labs package complete with the C-5 analyzer is currently priced at $2000.00. If you own a Display 2 which you would like to use with our software the software is sold separately for $1,000.00. We need to get the probe serial number from you to allow the software to communicate with your probe as it is password encoded as well as serialized in our package.Cliff it would really be nice if you would update the Progressive Labs web site and include a full list of probe support and the various purchasing options. The $2000 figure you quote here is not what the web site currently says and the support for the D2 and i1Pro is not mentioned at all.

http://www.progressivelabs.net/

While their tactics may be unsavory, free enterprise is the american way and american entrepreneurs are out to make money.

If you think free enterprise gives one the right to be dishonest then fine, we have a disagreement, I can live with that. But when I see someone say something false or misleading I'm going to speak up, that's my right and I see nothing wrong with that. Most of the problem I have though is that this forum is not intended for marketing at all but folks have found subtle ways of doing it anyway to try and steer business their way.

sorry, the question should have been have you seen any previous problems with the D2 and DLP's similar to what you saw with plasmas.I've seen no problem with the D2 on DLPs using either CalMan or HCFR.

I've seen no problem with the D2 on DLPs using either CalMan or HCFR.
Tom,

The original post in this thread was in regard to a Samsung HL-S DLP, which has an LED light source, I believe. Have you calibrated any of these with the D2?

-JD

If you think free enterprise gives one the right to be dishonest then fine, we have a disagreement, I can live with that. But when I see someone say something false or misleading I'm going to speak up, that's my right and I see nothing wrong with that. Most of the problem I have though is that this forum is not intended for marketing at all but folks have found subtle ways of doing it anyway to try and steer business their way.I don't think free enterprise gives one the right to be dishonest, but freedom of speech does. This freedom however also gives you the right to speak up about it and express your opinions and "call them out" if you think they're being misleading or dishonest. From the little that I've read from the businessmen here, most of it has been very tactful in trying not to step on toes but they're always going to be biased toward their own product. If they're marketing here and they aren't supposed to be, then it's up to the moderators to address that. If it's against the rules, it's against the rules. I for one would rather deal with a few unsavory sales tactics than lose some valuable information sources though. They can try to market to me all they want, but I'm still going to be a cheapskate and wait for HCFR v2.0 to come out. :D

Tom,

The original post in this thread was in regard to a Samsung HL-S DLP, which has an LED light source, I believe. Have you calibrated any of these with the D2?

-JD

No, the HL-T's are LED. There might have been one mid-year HL-S that was LED, but mine is metal halide. If the problem has to do with the scanning frequency though, it's not the light source but the modulation frequency of the DMD.

No, the HL-T's are LED. There might have been one mid-year HL-S that was LED, but mine is metal halide. If the problem has to do with the scanning frequency though, it's not the light source but the modulation frequency of the DMD.
I stand corrected, I had my model numbers confused. Samsung makes too many darn models! :)

Can we call a truce on this, or at least ask for a little more specificity as to who "they" refers to? :)

Well I certainly got the impression you guys were not being rigorous in your criticism when I first joined the forums and HCFR had just come out, others may have a different opinion so let's not rehash that. Since then though the Calman team has been nothing but helpful and straightforward, IMHO.

Well I certainly got the impression you guys were not being rigorous in your criticism when I first joined the forums and HCFR had just come out, others may have a different opinion so let's not rehash that. Since then though the Calman team has been nothing but helpful and straightforward, IMHO.
Thank you.

Since you guys have all settled your differences and all... Can I get a free copy of CalMAN or what? :D:D

You know, just to compare...


--The Cheapskate with a TV

Since you guys have all settled your differences and all... Can I get a free copy of CalMAN or what? :D:D

You know, just to compare...


--The Cheapskate with a TV

get in the back of the line buddy!!:mad::D

Since you guys have all settled your differences and all... Can I get a free copy of CalMAN or what? :D:D

You know, just to compare...


--The Cheapskate with a TV

No sweat. Shipping and handling is a beast at $200, though. ;)

No sweat. Shipping and handling is a beast at $200, though. ;)

Man, I might as well just buy it off your website for $150 then.

Tom Huffman

Cliff it would really be nice if you would update the Progressive Labs web site and include a full list of probe support and the various purchasing options. The $2000 figure you quote here is not what the web site currently says and the support for the D2 and i1Pro is not mentioned at all.

Tom,

You are correct our website needs to have a few updates made to it which will be done soon. Our new spectro is coming out in the next week or so and we will be making a number of updates to the website to coincide with the introduction of the new device. The price which is currently listed on the website for the C-5 is $1,800.00 which we will honor to any customer interested in purchasing the analyzer.

We will provide a complete listing of all supported instruments on the website when it is updated however here is what we currently support:

GretagMacBeth:

Chroma 4
Chroma 4 LCD
Chroma 5
Display 2 / Display LT
Hubble
i1Pro/i1Beamer
Sigma


Minolta:

Minolta CA-210
Minolta CA-100
Minolta CA-110
Minolta CS-100A
Minolta CS-200
Minolta CS-1000

Progressive Labs:
CA-1
CA-6X
C-5
Microspec Spectroradiometer

PhotoResearch PR-650

Man, I might as well just buy it off your website for $150 then.

They are giving you the SPECIAL "ED" PRICE..

Zoyd

They've tried here and there ever since it came out, in subtle and not so subtle ways, to infer that HCFR has some sort of fundamental accuracy problem. It's the same argument that's used to bash low-cost probes.

You stated that I did not point out the issue which I have outlined previously is regarding the HCFR softwares incorrect implementation of the CRT/LCD integration time setting function. This is part of the SDK supplied by the manufacturer of the probe. I have not been bashing the accuracy of the probe as you state.



I have not bashed any probes due to cost as I purchase my probes from the same manufacturer as the ones which you are using! The errors which I have pointed out have been due to the implementation of the software not the hardware! I do not need to see the code for this in HCFR as I am able to use the identical hardware with my own software without the error in the measurement due to the proper implementation of the code. I will not go any further into this as we have beaten this horse to death already. You have accused me of making disparaging remarks about the competitors products and making unfounded marketing claims which are untrue. My comments have all been supported with data to substantiate any claims which I have made in respect to accuracy. If there is something which I have not elaborated on to your satisfaction please make me aware of what is still unclear to you and I will do my best to clarify the issue for you.

They are giving you the SPECIAL "ED" PRICE..

Oh it's special alright..

Why is it that these threads always end up in a debate that has nothing to do with the initial post? Here we have a guy that has encountered an issue using HCFR with a D2 on a DLP display. No one can be sure what the cause of the issue is at this point. Maybe HCFR or the driver is installed incorrectly. Maybe the EyeOne DLL isn't in the HCFR folder and an older version is in the Windows Path. Maybe the PC it is running on has some other issue, and possibly there is an issue with the D2 and this particular display, or the D2 itself is FUBAR. Maybe we should try to help this guy. If some of the other vendors have software that works with the D2 without any issues, that is great, you can let us know that fact. And some of the vendors are very straightforward and helpful (Calman). In fact, the more vendor/developers the better from my perspective - competition leads to better software. However, claims made against HCFR's implementaion, especially in this case for which there are no known issues with the D2 and DLP's, are without merit. Granted, there is a HCFR/D2 CRT mode issue, but without the source code for HCFR, you really can only guess if there is an implementation issue in this particular user's case. Last but not least, many of these discussions end up either where we are now, or they transform into the "all probes are inaccurate except for mine, (unless I am selling one of the inferior ones to you)" excursions. Why not just set up a separate thread for claims for and against probes and software rather than muck up every other thread with these distractions? I would call it the "Eternal shootout from hell" thread, which quite frankly, would be a great read.

Maybe HCFR or the driver is installed incorrectly. Installed the latest drivers from xrite. With all programs closed, plugged in the sensor, windows asks for the driver, I point it to that folder and all is good.Maybe the EyeOne DLL isn't in the HCFR folder and an older version is in the Windows Path.I'm using the eyeone.dll from the most recent version of iMatch3 (see my first few posts) Maybe the PC it is running on has some other issue, I've tried it on an HP laptop with a recent install of XP-MCE, fully updated, and on a desktop PC through remote desktop from the laptop, with an Opteron-165 overclocked, 1GB ram, XP x64. Both using avast! antivirus. That reminds me... HCFR on the desktop with XP x64, the CIE chart for some reason the measurement dots and the reference diamonds aren't showing up. I can still mouse over where everything should be, and the popup does display, but nothing on the chart. I thought it might have been a problem with using remote desktop, but I did a screen capture and they weren't in the jpg either.and possibly there is an issue with the D2 and this particular display, or the D2 itself is FUBAR.That's what I'd really like to know. Maybe we should try to help this guy.What he said. :D

Installed the latest drivers from xrite. With all programs closed, plugged in the sensor, windows asks for the driver, I point it to that folder and all is good.I'm using the eyeone.dll from the most recent version of iMatch3 (see my first few posts)
Make sure you copy the EyeOne.dll file (usually in C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\i1\Eye-One Match 3) to the HCFR folder (usually C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR).

I've tried it on an HP laptop with a recent install of XP-MCE, fully updated, and on a desktop PC through remote desktop from the laptop, with an Opteron-165 overclocked, 1GB ram, XP x64. Both using avast! antivirus. Try using HCFR to measure the notebook LCD display just to prove that it works with a plain old LCD. You can use the built-in "View Images" generator instead of the DVD - it's much faster.


That reminds me... HCFR on the desktop with XP x64, the CIE chart for some reason the measurement dots and the reference diamonds aren't showing up. I can still mouse over where everything should be, and the popup does display, but nothing on the chart. I thought it might have been a problem with using remote desktop, but I did a screen capture and they weren't in the jpg either. I would stay away trying this through remote desktop until you resolve the issue, maybe even back off the overclocking if nothing else works. As for the CIE chart measurement dots, I had this issue once and my display was set for 8 or 16 bit color. Changing it to 32 bit color fixed the problem.

are you sure the most recent .dll file is the one that best matches with the program..I know that ColorHCFR has problems with .dll files for the DTP-94, and mine wasnt a recent one but worked and I zipped it over to that forum for those who needed a working one..you might want to venture and ask if your file matches someone else's that has it working for them as well..

Make sure you copy the EyeOne.dll file (usually in C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\i1\Eye-One Match 3) to the HCFR folder (usually C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR).

Try using HCFR to measure the notebook LCD display just to prove that it works with a plain old LCD. You can use the built-in "View Images" generator instead of the DVD - it's much faster.


I would stay away trying this through remote desktop until you resolve the issue, maybe even back off the overclocking if nothing else works. As for the CIE chart measurement dots, I had this issue once and my display was set for 8 or 16 bit color. Changing it to 32 bit color fixed the problem.The dll is in the right place, and that makes sense about the color depth setting. I think remote desktop might knock it back to 16bit to save bandwidth. As for working on my laptop lcd, I think you might not fully understand my symptoms. I can take measurements. Even on my DLP. But I only get one or two at higher luminosity levels, and then it locks up. I've used the probe on this laptop using Match3, and it seemed to work fine. I did however just take your advice and ran it anyway, and it still seemed to work, but it changed my colors quite noticeably from the last time. So I opened HCFR and ran a grayscale and colors test, (sRGB pallet, 0-255) and evidently either Match3 isn't doing a very good job, HCFR isn't doing a good job, or my sensor is Efft-up. The was a good amount of ambient light, so I'm going to run it again just for the hell of it and see what happens. I'll post my chc file.

are you sure the most recent .dll file is the one that best matches with the program..I know that ColorHCFR has problems with .dll files for the DTP-94, and mine wasnt a recent one but worked and I zipped it over to that forum for those who needed a working one..you might want to venture and ask if your file matches someone else's that has it working for them as well..That's a good question and a good idea. Who's got a known good HCFR / D2 eyeone.dll that they can send me?

Something's definately not right. After running match3 several times, it's consistant, but doesn't look right anymore. It's much brighter and the color temp is considerably higher. I ran the display images tests on HCFR right after my last Match3 cal, and it doesn't look good. CHC and decoder log is attached. And for those of you HCFR challenged...
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/Grayscale.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/Gamma.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/CIE.jpg

Now not only does my laptop screen not look right, but my sensor can't even agree between two pieces of software.

Some more reference...

Eyeone.dll version - v3.4.0.131
i1 Display driver version - v2.0.0.0 date: 8/21/06
Laptop - HP 8305us, 17" 1440x900 screen at native res, 32bit color, 1.8GHz AMD Turion, 1GB ram, ATI RADEON Express M200, 128MB shared. Windows XP, Media Center Edition, SP-2.

Troubleshooting sometimes requires doing things just to rule them out as the source of the problem. I understand that you can measure to a point, and similar to a D2/Plasma issue, it locks up above some level. While that may be the problem here, Tom Huffman reported that he hasn't seen the problem on DLP's he has calibrated.

I see your graphs from the laptop display. While I would expect Match3 to do a better job, the backlights and small packaging in laptops may not provide much leeway. Your readings look similar to my Dell notebook...very blue. This may not fully explain your differences, but the Match3 software modifies your LUT to adjust video on your PC, HCFR does not, so when you use HCFR on it after Match3, it is working with the LUT that was loaded on startup. If we assume that the D2 is okay and working properly with HCFR, HCFR is only displaying the full gray scale result of what Match3 was able to accomplish; it does not make any automated adjustments to the LUT.

Yep, like all remote software, Remote Desktop does drop the bit depth to save bandwidth.

That's a good question and a good idea. Who's got a known good HCFR / D2 eyeone.dll that they can send me? Here's the previous version:
http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=789&Action=support&SoftwareID=513

If all else fails, setting your DLP's contrast level to a max between 100 and 120 nits and see if the D2 can get through the measures without locking up. This is a good level anyway for a dark to dimly lit room. EDIT: I see that you already tried this without success. What source are you using for the DLP measurements - GetGray, Avia...something else?

The default power settings on Notebooks/laptops change the display brightness depending on the power source. This might explain it being brighter than the last time you ran it.

I see your graphs from the laptop display. While I would expect Match3 to do a better job, the backlights and small packaging in laptops may not provide much leeway. Your readings look similar to my Dell notebook...very blue. This doesn't explain your differences, but the Match3 software modifies your LUT to adjust video on your PC, HCFR does not, so when you use HCFR on it after Match3, it is working with the LUT that was loaded on startup.I'm not sure Match3 modifies the look up tables for the video card. It creates a monitor color profile (*.icc file) that you can switch to or from in the advanced video card settings color tab. Match3 creates this profile and sets it to default, so I'm definately using that color profile after running Match3 and when running HCFR.If all else fails, setting your DLP's contrast level to a max between 100 and 120 nits and see if the D2 can get through the measures without locking up. This is a good level anyway for a dark to dimly lit room.Tried that. I closed the iris as far as it would go, and that put me at a max Y of around 85 nits. Figuring I could just get it calibrated at the low light level and then open it back up when I was done to brighten it back up and not throw anything off. I didn't get any lockups on grayscale, but when I went to do the color gamut and threw up a 100% red target, it did it again. I couldn't set my color because it would keep locking up, and when I would get measures, it wasn't giving me the right numbers. I could never even get close to 21% red even when there was obviously way too much red. I tried it at several different luminosities with the same outcome.

The default power settings on Notebooks/laptops change the display brightness depending on the power source. This might explain it being brighter than the last time you ran it.Good though, but I took that into account. The laptop was plugged in on every calibration occasion, and the backlight brightness was cranked all the way up every time for repeatability. Funny thing though... I just reloaded on of the first monitor color profiles I did with Match3 and looked at it with HCFR, and THAT looks right. I'll post some pictures in a bit.

At least you can get through the grey scale at lower levels. It is strange that the Red 75% would lock it if it can get past that stimulus with the white targets. That's seems to be a different spin on the problem encountered with the D2 and Plasmas.

You are using the XBox 360 and W6RZ HD-DVD patterns @1080p. If you are willing to try some more troubleshooting, I would say try 1080i or 720p just to see if it works. Or try downloading the free HCFR test DVD, (or buy GetGray) and see if the same problem occurs with these SD DVD disks (which will be upconverted by your Xbox and hopefully to the right colorspace). HCFR is PAL, but Xbox should be able to play it. Or try plugging your laptop into the VGA connector on the DLP, pick some compatible resolution and run the built-in HCFR patterns (note that the generated primaries are 100% and you might want to make sure the Match3 profile or LUT for your notebook isn't loaded).

At least you can get through the grey scale at lower levels. It is strange that the Red 75% would lock it if it can get past that stimulus with the white targets. That's seems to be a different spin on the problem encountered with the D2 and Plasmas.

You are using the XBox 360 and W6RZ HD-DVD patterns @1080p. If you are willing to try some more troubleshooting, I would say try 1080i or 720p just to see if it works. Or try downloading the free HCFR test DVD, (or buy GetGray) and see if the same problem occurs with these SD DVD disks (which will be upconverted by your Xbox and hopefully to the right colorspace). HCFR is PAL, but Xbox should be able to play it. Or try plugging your laptop into the VGA connector on the DLP, pick some compatible resolution and run the built-in HCFR patterns (note that the generated primaries are 100% and you might want to make sure the Match3 profile or LUT for your notebook isn't loaded).Actually I'm using a PS3, not an Xbox. I am using the targets from w6rz.net, and I've compared to AVIA with the same results. I don't have a VGA cable to use the built in patterns, but I'm leaning toward a software problem at the moment especially with Match3 not working correctly now.

Sorry, PS3 somehow translated to Xbox in my head since we have 2 360's in the house, and the full W6RZ iso is HD-DVD, not BluRay. Do you have Bluray burner, and are downloading the individual W6RZ patterns to Bluray, or are you burning and downconverting them to SD DVD. I am not sure what the point of the latter would be :confused:. If it locked up on Avia too, then yeah, don't bother. It should be easy to try sending 720p or 1080i and let the Samsung upconvert it, but I doubt that will make any difference. Zoyd was probably right (as usual), that this is similar to the D2/plasma issue.

BTW, you should measure primaries with 75%, not 100% targets.

In your previous post it seemed like you had Match3 working again, although it seems inconsistent. Sounds like the D2 is okay, but the laptops LUT based profiles are not always being loaded. Maybe a complete uninstall/reinstall (and maybe use the previous version) of Match3 version is in order.

I would either toss (via ebay) the D2 and get a DTP-94 if you can find one, or buy sw from one of the vendors that claim the D2 doesn't have issues with your display.

Sorry, PS3 somehow translated to Xbox in my head since we have 2 360's in the house, and the full W6RZ iso is HD-DVD, not BluRay. Do you have Bluray burner, and are downloading the individual W6RZ patterns to Bluray, or are you burning and downconverting them to SD DVD. I am not sure what the point of the latter would be :confused:. If it locked up on Avia too, then yeah, don't bother. It should be easy to try sending 720p or 1080i and let the Samsung upconvert it, but I doubt that will make any difference. Zoyd was probably right (as usual), that this is similar to the D2/plasma issue.

BTW, you should measure primaries with 75%, not 100% targets.

In your previous post it seemed like you had Match3 working again, although it seems inconsistent. Sounds like the D2 is okay, but the laptops LUT based profiles are not always being loaded. Maybe a complete uninstall/reinstall (and maybe use the previous version) of Match3 version is in order.

I would either toss (via ebay) the D2 and get a DTP-94 if you can find one, or buy sw from one of the vendors that claim the D2 doesn't have issues with your display.
Well, I figured out my red problem. Not the locking up, it still does that, but I can work around it. But the not being able to get to 21% red... User error. The targets on w6rz ARE 75% patterns, not 100% patterns. So I was comparing a 100% white pattern to a 75% red pattern. duh.. Anyway, I think I'm home free now. I've done a first pass, and things are looking WAY better. Regarding the w6rz patterns on the PS3, the individual patterns are .TS transport streams which the PS3 can play naitively if you rename them to .mpg. You don't get any sound (yet) but I don't need it for this purpose. So All I did was download the all patterns zip file, unzipped it, and transferred it to the PS3 HDD via flash drive. Works like a champ, MPEG-2 1080P targets right off the HDD. So I think my problem is fixed enough for me. Hopefully HCFR v2.0 will address the locking up problem. I'll post my graphs when I'm satisfied.

Here's what I've got so far. This is after about two or three hours today. Its a pain with the probe locking up, but it's getting there. The grayscale and gamma still leave something to be desired, but already my picture looks really good. This is my Samsung HL-S5087W. (Don't compare to the above charts which were my laptop)
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/HL-S5087W11-3-07GrayHDMI2.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/HL-S5087W11-3-07GammaHDMI2.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/gcatalfo/HCFR/HL-S5087W11-3-07CIEHDMI2.jpg

Yeah, trying to reach 21% red can be a b*tch when it's 75% and your white is 100%.:eek: Looks like your CMS is done already, but in the future, maybe using 75% will give you less lockups and headaches.

Right-click on the Gray Scale diagram and set the scale to 50-150%, it will be easier to see where you need tweaking.

Your gamma needs to be flattened out. It looks like it may be to bright at the low end - did you adjust the black level yet? You will probably need to adjust the brightnes/contrast/gamma settings on the Samsung to get there.

Yeah, trying to reach 21% red can be a b*tch when it's 75% and your white is 100%.:eek: Looks like your CMS is done already, but in the future, maybe using 75% will give you less lockups and headaches.

Right-click on the Gray Scale diagram and set the scale to 50-150%, it will be easier to see where you need tweaking.

Your gamma needs to be flattened out. It looks like it may be to bright at the low end - did you adjust the black level yet? You will probably need to adjust the brightnes/contrast/gamma settings on the Samsung to get there.

I use the information window to set my gray scale. The graph is just for reference. And I'm working on the gamma right now.

I use the information window to set my gray scale. The graph is just for reference. And I'm working on the gamma right now.That's fine since your continuous measure may lock up, but remember high and low RGB controls impact each other, especially in the middle. Although your deltaE looks great above 50 IRE, I would would try to get below deltaE of 4 below that, even if you need to sacrifice a bit at the top end. Good luck!

The information (measures information) has the three RGB percentage bars with numerical readout, as well as numerical readout for the delta and color temp. I played with my grayscale some more, and I got it all under a delta of 2, 10-100IRE. I've gotten the gamma better, but it's going to take some more work. I have to play with contrast, brightness, and my iris. The only real gamma settings are presets, and I'm already set to the one that's closest to 2.2 / 2.5.

Thanks for everyone's help!! Sorry it turned out to be user error and I wound up starting a battle.

I'm using a new i1 Display LT and HCFR to cal my Sammy HL-S, but at higher light levels (over a Y of 100 or so) its measures slow down ALOT, and if it's high enough, it'll stop responding altogether. At lower light levels, all the way down to black, it's great. About one reading per second or so and it's like that until I get up higher brightness. The weird thing is is if I unplug it, and plug it back in, I'll get a couple of good readings, and then it'll lock up again. I can't even stop the continuous measures. If I'm right on the edge of it locking up, it'll give me a few good readings a couple of seconds apart, pause for about 20 seconds or so, report a totally bogus reading, and then report good readings a few more times. Has anyone else encountered this, or do I have a bum sensor? I got it from an Amazon reseller so I should be able to send it back.

Ditto for me as well..I jsut got it and its doing the exact same thing..all after 80stimulus and sometimes when reading Green Primary...on a Mits 65833 DLP

I had someone shoot me over a older .DLL to see if it fixes or helps...stay tuned

This is why Im meter training my DTP94 which has gone off spec from the D2..

Evidently the slowdowns and lockups are probably due to an incorrect implementation of the i1 display SDK in HCFR. Hopefully this will be corrected in v2.0

That's a good question and a good idea. Who's got a known good HCFR / D2 eyeone.dll that they can send me?

PM me..