To any person who has recently purchased (in the last 2 years) a VP.

There is a "debate" on CurtPalme that video processors are only for "videophiles" - there is someone that says basically we are imagining things. The claim is made by someone who still thinks of VPs as "scalers".

I have a HTPC which (no matter how much I tweak it) I can never get to look as good as my HTPC through my VP.
(I've got a Crystalio 2 and have had a Vantage and VP50).

Someone has asked that I explain my rationale which I have done to the best of my ability however some actual people who have VPs and can confirm my claims would be most helpful.

The link directly to the debate is below:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80257#80257

I suspect that because the debate is "buried" within a not so popular thread, no actual users of VPs have seen it.

Anyway, if you get a chance and you want to help defend VPs and their honour, please visit and comment!! Naturally if you think I'm seeing things, bring that up too! :)


Kind regards

I'd put in my 2 cents there but I got banned, wouldn't be worth my time anyway

while there are tons of great CRT guys(actually some of the best people) lots of the CRT crowd are a bunch of sour old farts that can't stand to spend 5$ and trash anyone for buying decent cables, power conditioning and as you guessed it VP's ;)

-Gary

What upsets me is the fact this guy hasn't even given any VP a fair go at evaluation and he's making comments that he's absolutely sure that "scalers" don't do anything. I've tried (unsuccesfully) to explain that VPs these days are far more than just scalers. That technology that used to cost almost a hundred grand is now in reach of the average consumer and that studios wouldn't have spent that money if the technology was as pointless as he makes out.

I used to think in that way, but when HQV and VXD became widely available I thought I would try one out. Boy was I suprised. All I could think is "why doesn't this technology get installed in displays to begin with!?". Then I started seeing PJs and AVRs with implementations of this fine technology.

Being closed minded about trying new technology because of pre-conceived notions of "ancestral" implementations (in this case, line doublers!) is just doing yourself a real dis-service.

oliverg,
The topic of this thread is misleading. You have been asked and sidestepped the question from others so I will ask you here on AVS.

- What are you accomplishing by using a VP between the HTPC and display? Let me be very clear that I am not asking you if it looks bettter, I am asking you what you believe the VP is performing/correcting from the HTPC video output. Unless you are outputting PDI or SDI from the HTPC, its not clear what benefit you are getting from sending your HTPC output to the VP.

FWIW, my HTPC (sending 1080p) is connected to my display thru my VP50 however this is done only for convenience of switching inputs as the VP50 acts as an HDMI hub.

Hi RTK - this isn't just about my HTPC - The debate is also about any/all sources and VPs ways of making them look better.

I have satellite PVR, An SDI enabled very high end DVD player - A second generation BR player - a PS3, a FTA HD PVR and my HTPC.

The HTPC is a quad core QX6700, P5N32ESLI motherboard, 2 8800GTXs in SLI, 4Gb of RAM, two 10k Raptors in RAID 0, two 750Gb in RAID 1 . XBox HD-DVD and Samsung BR drive (and so on).
My HTPC is set on 1080P/50 most of the time as I'm in Australia.
It outputs via DVI to the HDMI input on my C2

For players I have Zoom player professional, TT, VLC and PowerDVD Ultra. For DVDs I prefer using ZP - VMR9 renderless (exclusive) with FFDShow (sharpen filter) and some maximum post processing. For BR/HD-DVD I use PowerDVD Ultra (video acceleration on). I've experimented with various other renderers (Haali, EVR etc).
I have been able to get what I consider to be a very adequate PQ from all my sources (including my HTPC) but when I process any of these through my Crystalio 2 (using VXP not Faroujdja) , the PQ is improved signifcantly. Its been the same with my old Vantage and VP50. I only sold those because my C2 has two discrete outputs.

Despite the fact that the HTPC PQ is excellent, feeding it into the C2 improves the image even further. My ex-wife, despite not being technical at all has even commented this often - she knew when the VP wasn't on (my old Harmony remote sometimes forgot to switch it on).

Try watching some SD content on your HTPC - then try it without the VP50 on. (ie passthrough). On the C2, I've switched passthrough on and off and seen the visible difference in PQ that it affords.

I'm not surprised though, we got out VPs to process video. Improvement should be a given? :)

Kind regards

PS I have also calibrated my various displays before I used any VP and also re-calibrated them after a VP was added to the chain.
PPS I have not ever "sidestepped" the question from others and how is the title misleading? Mark's comment is below. I've read it as its written and in combination to his other comments - if you haven't read them, this is what the title is regarding.

"I'm not a broadcast studio. I just have a modest CRT based HT. Just as there are Audiophools, there are also Videophools, and I try very hard not to fall into either category (cables, etc). Swapping projectors willy-nilly, blowing thousands to get a 1% improvement...such a waste of resources. "

, its not clear what benefit you are getting from sending your HTPC output to the VP.



Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, the main benefit I get is an overall improvement in PQ.

VP de-interlacing seems far superior to anything the HTPC can do - gamma control is better. Scaling is "smoother". Detail is brought out much better than any filters seem to be able to achieve on the HTPC alone. The way multiple sources can have discrete profiles so they can each be handled in their own relevant and unique way (easily).

There are a lot of features that various VPs have in common - but the main selling point is that they can improve any video/film source that hasn't been processed by a VP yet. As you have a VP50 you would be able to try out what I'm saying. Try your HTPC with and without your VP50. Try to see if SD from your HTPC with your VP's processing on and off - can you see the difference?

I have seen some people argue that a "pure" source is better than a processed source from a VP - these are usually the people that don't buy a VP. I haven't seen this, quite the opposite - VPs have been able to work wonders with both poor and good sources.

If I had to choose between losing my HTPC and losing my VP, I'd choose the HTPC. Even though I love it!

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, the main benefit I get is an overall improvement in PQ.

VP de-interlacing seems far superior to anything the HTPC can do - gamma control is better. Scaling is "smoother". Detail is brought out much better than any filters seem to be able to achieve on the HTPC alone. The way multiple sources can have discrete profiles so they can each be handled in their own relevant and unique way (easily).

There are a lot of features that various VPs have in common - but the main selling point is that they can improve any video/film source that hasn't been processed by a VP yet. As you have a VP50 you would be able to try out what I'm saying. Try your HTPC with and without your VP50. Try to see if SD from your HTPC with your VP's processing on and off - can you see the difference?

I have seen some people argue that a "pure" source is better than a processed source from a VP - these are usually the people that don't buy a VP. I haven't seen this, quite the opposite - VPs have been able to work wonders with both poor and good sources.

If I had to choose between losing my HTPC and losing my VP, I'd choose the HTPC. Even though I love it!

dude you are preaching to the choir :p you don't need to waste time fighting with anyone that says a HTPC ='s a VP scaler, it is total BS, all videophiles know this

if someone has a setup that involves no need of scaling, I agree 100% this type setup can still be improved with a VP, PQ is always better with a VP ;)

shall we put together a list of everything a scaler can do that a HTPC can't?

it still blows my mind that someone could think they could slap together a HTPC and it would beat dedicated scaler makers like PMS, Lumagen, DVDO etc. who spend every hour of everyday working on their products, products that are dedicated to improving PQ via scaling, deinterlacing, calibration and etc., it is absurd :confused:

-Gary

Gary, thank you for your input. I totally agree with you.

I've made this point several times on CP - but why would broadcast/film etc studios invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into machines that didn't work.

My C2 has an algorithm that does 1024 point scaling .. sure my HTPC can scale.. in fact it can do alot of what a dedicated VP does but it doesn't do it anywhere near as well or as gracefully.

I'll start working on that list :)

Kind regards

PS I think because there are a few common features, the guy who only has a HTPC has to self justify why they don't need a VP. He doesn't realise just how much difference a good VP can have - both on good and bad quality sources and content

I'd put in my 2 cents there but I got banned

Oh my, what did you do? I can't imagine you trashed the technology - you have a CRT yourself don't you?

It always annoys when someone argues against something without having ever experienced it (and made sure they experience it in a relevant setup).

Basically, a lot of the current VP owners on here and on AVforums had HTPCs to begin with as they were best bang for buck for a long while. But I've never looked back since Crystalio I arrived.

I still use a HTPC, but only for it's ability to play anything I throw at it - it still goes through CII.

One of the reasons I like Pixel Magic is that they were one of the big supporters of HTPCs by providing the SDI and RGB/Component capture cards for use with DScaler.

If I was just trying to drive a CRT with the best bang for buck I could get, an HTPC would definitely be the way to go though.

My HTPC is set on 1080P/50 most of the time as I'm in Australia. It outputs via DVI to the HDMI input on my C2

What does a C2 do to a 1080p (your HTPC) video source if the output from the VP is the same?

Is there PreP like feature on the C2 to correct poor deinterlaced 1080p material? I'm not questioning your perceived improvement in picture quality and obviously I believe in the value of a VP as I own one but if one is to believe your claims, the questions above need answering.

Oh my, what did you do? I can't imagine you trashed the technology - you have a CRT yourself don't you?

me and Curt had a falling out/disagreement, I am not 100% blameless :o

CRT rules dude :D

-Gary

I also have an htpc and a vp50.

Tried it with the htpc only and it doesn't come close to what it looks like running thru the vp50.

my 2cents worth.

for that matter. the other dedicated hd players that I have tried (HDA1 and PS3) can't come close to the picture I get with the HTPC (with everything running thru the vp50)

I'm seriously thinking of getting a Pioneer Elite 95 with the Home Media Gallery function to see if it will play everything I have on my 7TB of hdds.

Largely for convenience. And partly due to the new DRM Fox has employed.

CRT rules dude :D
-Gary

I agree - but it's just too much work.

I agree - but it's just too much work.

But once the job is complete, my god! MY GOD!!!!! Love my Marquee's and lumagen.


Athanasios

'New' addiction uh? You'll quickly find out that the job is never 'complete'. One day your marquee won't turn on, and you won't know why, and it'll be a pain to diagnose. Or, eventually, the out of focus corners will drive you crazy. Etc, etc, etc.

Not that digitals are perfect. And yes I agree CRT still wins in terms of overall PQ.

I've had mine for a year, still love it. no probs and i have two, stacked! The blend will be next , and hopefully lumagen will be my scaler for that.

Athanasios

dude you are preaching to the choir :p you don't need to waste time fighting with anyone that says a HTPC ='s a VP scaler, it is total BS, all videophiles know this

if someone has a setup that involves no need of scaling, I agree 100% this type setup can still be improved with a VP, PQ is always better with a VP ;)

shall we put together a list of everything a scaler can do that a HTPC can't?

it still blows my mind that someone could think they could slap together a HTPC and it would beat dedicated scaler makers like PMS, Lumagen, DVDO etc. who spend every hour of everyday working on their products, products that are dedicated to improving PQ via scaling, deinterlacing, calibration and etc., it is absurd :confused:

-Gary


Not too many people realize this but the scaling in an HTPC is still hardware based. It's done in the graphics chip on the graphics card. Even dual core current PC technology can't do scaling in realtime along with all the other chores of playing back a DVD such as MPEG decompression. This is why there are big quality differences in which video graphics card you choose. Even software based VP such as DScaler (which it what I use) do little software based vidoe processing. There just isn't the bandwidth there to do much more than rudimentary signal level adjustments. They too rely on the built in features of the graphics engine chip.

For anyone that is interested, I'm posting most my last reply on CP -

- Only people like "videophiles" can see the benefit of VPs - totally false. I’m no videophile, in fact I doubted the ability of a VPs to do as the marketing claimed – but now I’m a convert. Why? Because I actually tried them out. Properly.

- There is no benefit from routing a HTPC into a VP since the HTPC does everything a VP can - also false
All these claims were made not from actual considered evaluation, but from hearsay and vague theoretical knowledge of "scalers". Lets consider this – if you were listening to a debate where on one hand, person 1 was intimately familiar with the devices in question and had given due first hand consideration and evaluation and on the other, person 2 hadn’t even picked up the remote control of said devices .... who would you believe?

I’ve answered specifically what the VP does for any video/film source - it improves the PQ. I provided two links which are quite clear about features two of the leading VPs have. The bottom line is that no matter what a HTPC can do, the dedicated VP can do it better. You can get 85-90% of a perfect picture from a well calibrated source and display but when you add a good quality VP into the picture, you get the extra 10-15% (note I’m not saying 1-2%!). I’m so confident in what I’m claiming that I openly challenge anyone to get a VP, play with it over a few weeks and come back here and tell me that I’m mistaken.

Mark wont even try, he’s already made up his mind – as far as he’s concerned, he’s got his 80% - so whilst he will sit there and admit his system is 80% of a damn near perfect PQ, he claims the 15-20% improvement that I’ve observed is false! You can’t have it both ways Mark, you can’t admit that your picture is 80% perfect and that you’re happy with it and then claim the 20% doesn’t exist.

If you don’t want to read the contents of the links, I’ve copied them below In doing this, I hope it will conclusively answer your questions as to “Why?” and “How?” and “What?”

This has turned into a comparison to HTPCs and dedicated VPs.- but take these points in context - I believe the best HTPC configured as well as it can can provide an excellent picture. But to get that last "20%", throw a good VP in the mix and watch what happens.


POINT 1: Scaling - the PC cannot scale anywhere near as well as a HTPC, the scaling algorithm in my C2 for example is

1024 point and totally hardware based. The VP does this effortlessly – the scaling is much smoother and looks more realistic. Even applications like Dscaler can’t compete.

POINT 2: Rich inputs/outputs .Extremely flexible and high quality inputs/outputs. High quality BNC connectors are used for all analog/SDI video I/O.

The HTPC doesn’t provide for external sources anywhere near as well as a dedicated VP. With a HTPC, if you can’t plug it straight in you need to capture it. As a hub for all your sources, the VP is far superior.

POINT 3 – Dedicated video processing chipsets: eg VXP™ by Gennum – “Uncompromised HD motion adaptive de-interlacing with 3:2 and 2:2 inverse telecine, bad edit correction and advanced dynamic directional interpolation for eliminating jaggy artifacts; image enhancements for improving details and true 10-bit broadcast-grade processing to deliver the world's most advanced and flexible image processor.”

Speaks for itself – OK a HTPC can do some of this, but features such as dynamic directional interpolation – 10 bit broadcast grade processing – bad edit correction. Whatever similarities the HTPC feature list has with the listed features ends at the wording – a dedicated VP will outperform the HTPC at every level. The HTPC can’t even do IVTC reliably.

POINT 4 - 2:2 and 3:3 processing. Cadence lock to 48Hz and 72Hz for film source to provide ultra-smooth playback.

Another thing the HTPC can’t do well.

POINT 5: Adaptive 3D noise reduction - Reduce unwanted video noise and produce more enjoyable motion pictures.

Taking two frames, analysing them both and identifying the differences between the two then removing noise in real time – a HTPC struggles with this as even with a quad core processor this is an intensive process.. Noise reduction on a HTPC doesn’t come close to how a VP can do it.

POINT 6: Precise picture control - Besides the conventional brightness, contrast, hue, saturation & picture controls, Crystalio II offers advanced controls such as sub-pixel Y/C delay calibration, user-customizable gamma curve through the user-friendly graphical interface and more.

HTPC doesn’t have sub-pixel Y/C delay calibration. The gamma controls aren’t on a HTPC aren’t anywhere near as advanced.

POINT 7 - Friendly user interface - Crystalio II is designed as a user-friendly plug-and-play appliance. Alpha-blended OSD (on screen display) offers an intuitive graphical user interface. 10 user-customizable independent picture control profiles for each input. Input and Output configuration profiles. Access to 24 user-customizable macros from the backlight remote for quick access to the most frequently used features.

Lets face it – the HTPC has a bunch of applications that all do specific functions. The VP has them all rolled into one and in a way that can be easily familiarised with. You don’t have to learn how to configure graphs, learn what codec does – why certain renderers wont work with certain codecs - The differences between overlay, DirectShow, Direct3D – what Vista’s Media Foundation is.. the list goes on. A HTPC takes alot of time to learn. Even when you have, its more of an exercise of learning what it can’t do rather than what it can do. I’ve been an IT person for 20 years and when I started getting serious and my the learning curve was vertical. How does the average person cope with this? Most don’t – they wont even try a HTPC.

POINT 8 –Dynamic VP - When enabled, the image processing settings and output format/timing/configuration will change dynamically depending on the input formats. This is an extremely flexible feature for advanced users to apply various image processing options to a single video source with different formats, and CRT users to exploit the sweet spots of their display dynamically.

VPs do this easily – the HTPC requires scripting/specialist applications to compete and not easy for the average person to learn.

POINT 9 - UltraAR - Crystalio II supports virtually any video image aspect ratio and display devices aspect ratio including, but not limited to; video images ranging from 4:3, 16:9, 4:3 letterbox, 16:9 letterbox, to 2.35:1 anamorphic; and display device aspect ratio from 4:3, 16:10, 16:9, to 2.35:1. Non-linear stretching to display 4:3 image on 16:9 displays is also supported.

Non-linear stretch is one feature that stands out vs a HTPC. The rest is fairly standard.

POINT 10 - Pixel Magic System - Pixel Magic System is a set of tools including internal test pattern generator for the user to configure the video output of Crystalio II, ensuring that it is mapped in Pixel Perfect mode to your digital display
This handy feature, whilst available on a PC isn’t as convenient as having all your test patterns available on your VP at the touch of a button

POINT 11 - Chroma filter Chroma filter to mask the chroma bug of MPEG decoders.
3D/2D 5-line comb filter 3D/2D 5-line (5H) adaptive comb and chroma trap filter for both PAL and NTSC signals delivers excellent analog to digital video conversion, especially valuable for the VCR/LD users.

Haven’t seen this on a HTPC

POINT 12 – Dedicated controls and displays independent of the HTPC screen: LCD display and push buttons on front panel -Real-time status information display on LCD panel including source, video format, output resolution, deinterlacing, aspect ratio, overscan and more. Push buttons/LCD display for system configuration and control is available in the situations where the user cannot view the display devices directly.

This is available on an application by application basis on a HTPC

POINT 13 - Dual deinterlacer architecture - Dual deinterlacer architecture for SDTV material allows choice of VXP by Gennum and DCDi by Faroudja.

Two dedicated architectures is great – these are whole chipset implementations, not a simple selection between “bob” and “weave”

POINT 14 - Precision clock Video circuits and audio delay circuits are clocked by 1ppm high precision low jitter TCXOs (temperature compensated crystal oscillators) and produce the highest quality standard of video and audio output.
Not even the best video card can do this!

POINT 15 - Mosquito Noise Reduction - reduces random noise which appears along the edges of compressed images
Haven’t seen a HTPC that can do this – especially with multiple sources

POINT 16 - Fine Detail Enhancement - to extract fine detail in low-resolution or compressed sources
When taking an SD source and upscaling it to HD – the effect of this really improves PQ. The better the source quality, the better this works. Better than a HTPC.

POINT 17 - Edge Enhancement - to sharpen edges without adding any ringing

FFDShow can do something similar but once again, it doesn’t do it as well.

POINT 18 – PreP - Progressive Reprocessing of 480p, 576p, and 1080p input signals allows poor deinterlacing of any source to be undone and done correctly using Precision Deinterlacing

This is one of the best features of the VP50 . On the fly too. The effect of this has to be seen first hand – it is actually quite profound.

POINT 19 – When taking video from external sources - 10-bit, 300 MHz Instrumentation Quality DACs (2x Oversampling for 1080p)

You can’t do this with a HTPC without spending more money than what it would cost for a VP anyway.

You don’t have to take my word for it. I could keep listing features of why I choose to route my HTPC through my VP.. but if even a few of these points don’t convince you, I urge you to see for yourself. Audition a Crystalio 2 or a VP50Pro. Or a Vantage HD. I’ve tried all of these and I prefer the C2. No matter how good the source, unless they have VP technologies built into them (an industry trend which is actually happening right now! Some high end display devices and AVRs are intergrating VP chipsets ) the PQ wont be as good as it could be.

Over the next few years, we are going to see VP technology merge into the average display device. Gennum's REON VXP is one example. I wouldn't be at all surprised if video cards aimed at the HTPC market don't evolve with these technologies intergrated

It sounds like they are living in the past. There was a time when the HTPC was the best deal for processing and video processors were ultra expensive plus didn't have the processing necessary to to what an HTPC could do. But that is no longer the case any more.

I used A high end pc with powerstrip/theater tek/M audio sound card, for my dvd player and Video Processor for about a year. I ended up spending more on that darn computor than if I had of just gone out and bought A dedicated VP,which I did eventually and the end result was A way better picture with more stability/reliability....

I recently visited my father in law. He has virtually the same display as me, hooked up to the same SDTV STB (a local satellite PVR). i.e., the chain is almost exactly the same, with only one major difference - I have a VP (actually two, but that's beside the point).

The PQ difference is huge. Anyone with eyes in their head will see it right away even from a significant distance.

They are too expensive for most buyers. It isn't that is only for videophiles, it's that it is only for people willing to spend big bucks.
My simple HT cost ~$4,000.(equip. only) And a VP was never a consideration, other than when I am older if I have a ton of disposable income I will be interested.

EAGLES, they've come down in price a lot in the last year.

I bought a Vantage for $1200 in July (bargain), a VP50 for $2000 and finally a Crystalio 2 for $2700. When you think of how Teranex machines cost even now, its just great that this type of technology is now in reach of the average person. If we can find a Vantage for $1200, then we're now in the realm of every day affordability.

If I had a budget of 4k and had to design a clients HT with that, knowing what I know now, I would still try to find a good quality second hand VP.

As I said on CP, we all talk about how we want our digital sources to be more "film like". When technology becomes available to actually make that happen, there are a whole bunch of people who are overly critical because they still living in the age of the line doubler or scalers.

They aren't doing themselves any favours.

For a laugh, this is the latest from the anti-VP crowd (about the 19 points I brought up). Remember, this guy hasn't even picked up the remote control of a good VP let alone properly evaluated one.


As for the multiple points on Scalers - most are completely irrelevant in a 1920x1080 world. And yes, my PC performs close to 100% perfect IVTC of 1080i 60hz material to 1080p 24fps using Dscaler 1080i IVTC MPEG2 decoder and Reclock for TS files, CoreAVC and Reclock for h264 files, and Powerdvd actually does it fine for HD-DVD/BD. I'm sure a torture test file could be found which trips is up, but in practice it works. Fancy deinterlacing is irrelevant for film material, all you need is IVTC.

Oliver, you really are a something else.

I can't believe you would take something this far. Taking to another forum completely, just to get your buddy boys to back you up. I had no idea you'd started stabbing me at all, until someone else pointed it out to me (and no it wasn't Gary - thanks for nothing Gary).

Especially when most of my points were just to troll you, just for the hell of it, because, it's easy to get you to froth at the mouth.

Can't you understand? I'm happy with my HTPC for HD sources, and YES I'VE SEEN A COUPLE OF MID/HIGH LEVEL VP's, on HIGH END DISPLAYS. My mate is selling his VP-50 as it offers him, in his situation, nothing except IVTC, and he's not sensitive to judder.

You really are a total something-rhyming-with-BANKER. You are so full of $hit, for one thing I HAVE held the remote of a VP50. Not for the weeks you think is some kind of right of passage. But we played around with the VP50 for a few hours, comparing it to the HD-A1 direct.

My comment that you quoted above is 100% accurate - how can you use this as any ammunition is some one sided debate?

Bite me.

Why would you bring the debate here? Do you have insecurity issues?

Mark - I haven't misquoted you - in fact I provided the link to CP so anyone could come along and read the misinformed information that you were so intent on spreading. You ridiculed my observations and now your credibility is shot.

This isn't about "buddy boys" - its about your claims that VPs are still "scalers" - that there is no benefit in routing a HTPC through a VP - that only "videophools" are the only ones that can see the difference.

There aren't a lot of people on CP that have read the thread and the ones that have read it don't have a VP.

Here, that's the opposite. There's a lot of VP users and they have commented on their findings about VPs and HTPCs. Many have been able to notice a difference.

(Thats because they've actually tried it - properly)

I never said you misquoted me.

I merely said that my stated about the PC performing *almost*, but not quite 100% IVTC + Weave was correct. And I stand by that.

Coincidentally, I did find something that trips my PC up (when using Reclock) last night. It is an old British TV show DVD from the 70's, that is bizarrely encoded in NTSC - bought it at the ABC shop yesterday. When using the heavily biased 24fps seeking decoder, Reclock can't decide if it's 24 or 30fps - it flips back and forth. So I can just use Powerdvd and ignore 3:2 judder for this one disc, or watch it on the TV - it's only a old comedy, not worth turning on the CRT.

I must say I am wondering why you felt you needed to create this thread at all? What was wrong with the debate where I knew it was going on? Rather than behind my back???

Its a public forum Mark (which you are a member of), hardly "behind your back"

People have the link to CP, they can see what you've written themselves.


I merely said that my stated about the PC performing *almost*, but not quite 100% IVTC + Weave was correct. And I stand by that.

That's definately not all you said.

Every body is entitled to there opinion's, But you should also keep an open mined especially if you have not had substantial personal experience with PC's used as scaler's/dvd players and dedicated High end video processors to come to an accurate conclusion. I have had years of experience with both, running them with High End LCD / DLP / CRT/ projectors and my personal opinion is that at the moment the new generation of high end dedicated video processor will give you better picture quality if configured correctly, also stability and reliability....

I had no idea you'd started stabbing me at all, until someone else pointed it out to me (and no it wasn't Gary - thanks for nothing Gary).



Mark I couldn't alert you to this even if I wanted to, I was banned from Curt's forum ;)

speaking on this post I could see how you could see it as that but I don't think Oliver meant it that way IMHO, I think he was wanting to get opinions from a scaler crowd or from more folks that have used them, something Curt's is most certainly NOT known for :)

-Gary

hi i just bought a projector

i've been reading this thread - should i get a video processing machine even if i have a home computer running as my dvd player?

thanks

hi i just bought a projector

i've been reading this thread - should i get a video processing machine even if i have a home computer running as my dvd player?

thanks

if you want the ultimate best PQ then certainly ;)

-Gary

Mark I couldn't alert you to this even if I wanted to, I was banned from Curt's forum ;)

speaking on this post I could see how you could see it as that but I don't think Oliver meant it that way IMHO, I think he was wanting to get opinions from a scaler crowd or from more folks that have used them, something Curt's is most certainly NOT known for :)

-Gary

That's exactly right Gary.

Mark. If I was trying to go "behind your back" I certainly wouldn't have posted publicly on AVS - that would be a poor way of hiding something that you weren't meant to see.

Whilst Curt's board is absolutely brilliant, there aren't as many people there that have had a good VP. Not to mention that the thread was buried in another and had gone off topic. There are a few people there that might like to think about buying a VP and they deserve accurate, up to date knowledge.

You asked me "why?" over and over. I came here to gather some other opinions from HTPC users who are using VPs,
I'm sorry what you've read here contradicts your most vehement views, but as you can see, there are a lot of people who back up my statement - considerable PQ can be gained by using a HTPC in conjunction with a good VP.

In the old days of "scalers" perhaps there wouldn't have been any advantage, but as I've mentioned several times on CP - Video Processors have come a long way since the days of line doublers.

I hope your further assertion that the features I listed out for you have no relevance to 1080P have also been cleared up. Or that only videophiles can see the difference?

By the way, I re-read your earlier post here - try not to get so worked up. Getting like that doesn't do you any favours - in fact it makes you look immature. If you have a legitmate point of view, state it but try to keep it civil without all the bluster and name calling.

wow i just read the thread on the other site................... oliverq dont worry about the other guy he sounds like he doesn't know much..... he doesnt want you to post here because you make him look bad

thats why hes angry.... he is old hat and doesnt want to learn new cool things

you guys are passionate about your hobbies and now im catching your diseases

i signed up there but now i wish i got rgb/crt projector.... i might get one but my wife
if she finds out how much money ive spent she will have a fit

thanks

EAGLES, they've come down in price a lot in the last year.

I bought a Vantage for $1200 in July (bargain), its just great that this type of technology is now in reach of the average person.


That is exactly my point. $1200 on top of necc. HD purchases(t.v./PJ-cables-receiver-speakers) is way out of avg. persons price range.
I consider myself above average spender with my PJ, receiver, speakers, sub, HD player(s), HD-DVR....and like I said earlier could not bring myself to spend that much or more for a VP. I'd LOVE one, but can't justify that expense.
So average joe is nowhere close.

I'm not sure people on each side of the fence are talking the same language here... I believe there are two issues in this:

1: Does a VP improve PQ if it inputs, say, 1080P/24, and outputs 1080P/24? Well, if it's a DVDO, 9 times out of 10 no (the last being the odd instance where you actually use the DVDO's gamma adjustments etc). For pass-through of 1080P signals, obviously the VP will do nothing than an HDMI switcher does, since in this case it actually IS a switcher, nothing else. So, if you just put a VP50 between the HTPC and the PJ, and have it do nothing, NO the VP does not improve PQ in any way.

For Lumagen products, things could very well be different, because you could be doing all sorts of color correction thingies, that the Lumagen will do better than the HTPC. So, the answer to the question: Does a VP improve PQ is: It depends, but not nescessarily. It's not a magic box that automatically improves any signal that passes through it, and I loathe any marketing that suggests that one should ignore common sense, and just use your eyes. Eyes can be decieved.

2: _Should_ you only use your VP for pass-through in the first place, or should you set up your HTPC to output the sources as natively as possible, and then use the VP to do whatever processing is nescessary, instead of doing the processing in the HTPC? This is a different matter altogether. Obviously, if you already chose to do all processing in the PC, the VP can't help you, even if this processing is done in a lesser quality than the VP would be capable of, if you actually let it. Like I said, it's not a magic box - you need to actually give it some work to do. The question is whether or not you should, or if you should do all processing in the PC. Personally, I've seen PC's output a source at the native rate (i.e. a 1080P source played back at 1080P output) at a very high quality, but I've yet to see an HTPC do any kind of conversions or processing, at anywhere near the quality that's obtainable from a high quality VP. Perhaps the HTPC owners I've visited just don't have a clue how to set up their HTPC, but if they don't, my guess is neither does 99% of the other HTPC owners.

I seriously hope that the above makes sense to both camps.

So average joe is nowhere close.

That doesn't mean that he couldn't make any use of it if he could afford it.

I'm quite sure VP manufacturers don't keep VP's out of the public eye on purpose, by keeping prices so high that noone wants them. I'm very sure that DVDO, Lumagen, PixelMagic etc. would love to see a 200$ VP in every home of america, if it was actually possible to manufacture a product good enough to make any sense. Basically: If it was that easy, any tv would have quality processing built in. VP's are high-end products, simply because it's complicated stuff.

Let me clarify Otto J -

My HTPC is set up as well as I can get it. Source and displays are calibrated properly. Despite this, running my HTPC into my VP (so far I've used a Calibre Vantage, a VP50 and a Crystalio 2) has only resulted in a significant increase in PQ. None were on pass through.

In fact, using the pass through feature of my C2 has given the ability to see the PQ with the VP 'active' and the VP just acting as a hub. I started noticing (especially in the case of the C2) that there is something to be said for these dedicated appliance's abilities to improve PQ.

This is regardless of if I am using an SD or a HD source.

I can't speak for any other VPs because I haven't seen them but I would take anyone here at their word that if they see an improvement, they see an improvement.

I stand by my statement on Curt Palme's forum - that any current video source can benefit from the abilities of a good VP, even a well optimised HTPC.

Your comment "Obviously, if you already chose to do all processing in the PC, the VP can't help you, " depends entirely on what type of processing you are referring to - the VP50Pro's ability to perform PPeP is one example where no matter what is done on the HTPC, the VP50 will make it better. A VP will "re process" any video fed to it and in many instances, will improve upon what the HTPC could do by itself.

Kind regards

PS the trend that some new AVRs and high end displays are incorporating VP chipsets (eg Reon) seems to indicate there is definately a revolution approaching - which is just great for the every day consumer

PPS Some excellent observations you make

Otto,

Not quite true. PReP and Mosquito noise can make a difference too!

BTW, there 90-10% rule usually applies. To reach 90% of the potential PQ doesn't usually cost too much. That last 10% is the killer - that's where real money comes in.

People may not want to sink a lot of money for "just" that last 10%, but that's the price...

Yep that last 10% is what it's all about:D

Just as a note: HTPCs can do every single thing a VP can do (including all those points in that long post up above). However, you have to know what you're doing. You can't just use PowerDVD, WinDVD, Windows Media Player or any of those basic applications and be done with it. Most people use those and with those, you guys are right, the VP will be much better. However, if you get into Dscaler and FFDShow, using TIVC and TDeint and TomsMoComp and related things for IVTCing and deinterlacing, you can do everything a VP can do. I can get better results with TIVTC and TDeint than I can with my VP50. I'm very familiar with both. However, I use the VP50 anyway because it's much more convenient for me.

If I really thought I would benefit from a VP I would have bought one years ago.

Everytime I add anything to the video chain. I belive I am reducing video quality somewhat.

I have a had a fiddle with the VP50 and it is a great bit of gear. But unless I actually need a function it provides like verticle expansion for CIH or a 48 hz outputfor a CRT projector (and the native output of the source device is at the correct resolution for the display) I dont think it adds anything to the quality of the content.

I will just explain myself here. If I have a XA2 which can output 1080p 24fps into a VW60. The VP50 gives me nothing extra except another link in the video chain.

as long as the entire signal chain is HDMI that extra link in the video chain won't matter and in most cases it will improve things very well

-Gary

what is it going to improve Gary ?

Am I the only one who can see an improvement with 1080P/24 input and 1080P/48 output? Why are not others trying this?? Or is this just wishfull thinking on my part?

yah I run that setup 1080p/24 into Vp50pro out 48hz for HDM look's good,I think Gary Murrell runs that config as well,for BDM.
Gaza you should no by now it's near impossible to change an old timer's beliefs :D ....

Graham, when I get my stack going - I'll invite you around to see the difference that the C2 makes to PQ - in the old days of analog you would be correct - but these days some of the newer VPs have enormous amounts of processing power and if you put them at the end of the chain just before the display, the difference in PQ is substantial.

Graham, when I get my stack going - I'll invite you around to see the difference that the C2 makes to PQ - in the old days of analog you would be correct - but these days some of the newer VPs have enormous amounts of processing power and if you put them at the end of the chain just before the display, the difference in PQ is substantial.

If thats an invitation I will take you up on it. :D

I take it you have your G90's now ???

As I said I am open to suggestion on what a VP50 can do to actually IMPROVE the image.

FYI I have been running a 1292 in a 48 hz configuration for quite a few years via a HTPC. IMO the HTPC route is a PITA and for me is a waste of time for HDM disk media.

Until proven to me other wize I always subscribe to the "less is more" philosphy.

Recently I moved to a new house with a much smaller theatre and I dont think I will use the 1292 again and have bought a VW100 to replace it. I am not one to have 60hz shudder worry me fortunately. So 24hz isnt that much of an issue for me. IF the 1292 gets re-hung then I will get a VP50 to give me 48hz into it.

Are you stacking or blending the G90's Oliver ?

Where are you now Graham? (Roughly I mean.)

Where are you now Graham? (Roughly I mean.)

Have moved to Berwick Mark. :eek:

Cri...


...key!

If I really thought I would benefit from a VP I would have bought one years ago.

Everytime I add anything to the video chain. I belive I am reducing video quality somewhat.

I have a had a fiddle with the VP50 and it is a great bit of gear. But unless I actually need a function it provides like verticle expansion for CIH or a 48 hz outputfor a CRT projector (and the native output of the source device is at the correct resolution for the display) I dont think it adds anything to the quality of the content.

I will just explain myself here. If I have a XA2 which can output 1080p 24fps into a VW60. The VP50 gives me nothing extra except another link in the video chain.

But you can not get proper grey scale with just that combo. The lumagen processors marry well with the sony from what i have read here and can correct many of its short commings.


Athanasios

This is a very interesting debate for me. I have an HTPC and a lowly DVDO Edge+Algolith Flea. When I watch DVD, I prefer the HTPC over the VP. I don't get too advanced into using test material, i use movies and what my eyes tell me. All I use is PowerDVD 9 and my GPU settings. I messed very little with FfdShow, but I didn't get far with it. There is no doubt my HTPC seems to have a slight micro stutter that I do not get with my BD player. Although enabling VSync and setting my GPU's prerendered frames setting to 8 (over the default 3) has helped incredibly.

Of course, my experience may be completely different, as I have a 1366x768 plasma. Using my HTPC, I output 720p and use my GPU to resize to 1216x684 and with my VP I set the Underscan to 5%. They both work with great results and drastically improved over sending 720p directly to my display. (My display seems to have around 4.5% overscan on a test disc. I figured sending the exact sum of 5% of the original resolution may yield better results than an odd resolution. If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. Reducing by 5% still fills the screen for both movies and HD cable. Sure, I get garbage in SD cable, just like any 1080p display in 1:1 would.)

Even on Bluray/HD DVD, I prefer my HTPC. It has a depth to the picture that just isn't quite there using my Pioneer BDP-51fd and DVDO Edge. Both offer incredibly sharp pictures, also.

Both of these methods have drastically improved my viewing experience over sending a native signal to my display. I often wonder if an "average" person, having a comparable 1080p set (vs my 720p/768 panel) would be more impressed with my picture over his own native set. :o I did go watch my first viewing of The Dark Knight, on BD, at my buddies house. He has the same display as mine except 1 year/model newer (Samsung HP-S5053 vs HP-T5054). That was one of the worst viewings I ever had on an HD setup. Looked like he had his sharpness at 100 or was watching it with his BD player locked to output 480p or something! Unreal...

I guess I will bring a friend over and "re-evaluate" both setups...

Edit: wow, didn't realize this thread was so old until I tried to submit my post. I used the search and this was on of the top results.