is 10X the best they can do?

Serious videographers tend to ignore zoom ratios. It is impossible to handhold a 20x-40x zoom at max even with optical stabilizers and produce anything that is watchable.

Newbies tend to zoom zoom zoom anything and everything and the results looks like crap.

I shot an air show with a 10X and it was plenty. Frankly at full 10X the video is still too jittery for my taste. I tend to stay around 5X max.

These 20-40X optical zoom cameras use real small sensors, (i.e. more noise) to achieve these. If you were to have a good sensor, the lens itself would need to be phyiscally larger (i.e. not compact, heavy, and expensive).

It's marketing. you trade off image noise and optical zoom. I'll take lower image noise and a 10x optical zoom any day.

so it's technically impossible to have high zoom ratio without noise even with a tripod?
I thought only digital zoom creates noise......

You can have your cake and eat it too, it will just be bigger, heavier, and more expensive.

There are many causes of noise.

Noise I'm talking about is actually random noise due to not enough light hitting the sensor of a really small chip. If you have a halfway decent digital camera, take a picture at ISO 50, and take the same picture at ISO 800, or ISO1600 (at the same resolution.) You see more noise in the higher ISO picture. This type of noise is TYPICALLY worse with a smaller sensor because each photocell (ok, they're not really photocells, technically) is smaller, and less light is available to hit it.

Digital zoom is a different kind of issue. That issue really is a loss of resolution, and crappy picture as a result. Also, any random noise present is magnified by the digital zoom, and you see it more severely...

Optical zoom doesn't create noise, just makes almost impossible to handhold the camera when fully zoomed. Try to take a picture with a 500mm lens without a tripod and you will see what we mean.

The most important thing on a lens, for consumers and even prosumers, is how wide is the widest angle. Most camcorders come with a not so wide lens and makes traditional shootings (aniversary, weddings,birtdays) very difficult to handle. The Panasonic SD1 (old model) is the only consumer highdef camera that comes with a great lens and 12X zoom. It's also very cheap.

Sergio

Try to take a picture with a 500mm lens without a tripod and you will see what we mean.

Sergio

Believe it or not...with my digital SLR and my 50-500 Sigma...I can! Here is a link to my 500mm handheld gallery. A camcorder...forget it...but still photography yes!

http://www.pbase.com/proffesor/sigma_500mm_birds

how do I pick a camcorder with good lense? in other words, what makes a lense good, or bad?

The new Sony PMW-EX1 has a 14X zoom lens and it's full 1080p!

The Prosumer Canon & Sony camcorders that do HDV (1440X1080) have up to 20x zoom lenses.

Troy

The Sony you mentioned is a $7000 camcorder. Not really even prosumer, by my definition...

As I mentioned twice in this thread, It's possible... Bigger, Heavier, More expensive lenses...

Also, I don't believe there are 20x HDV cameras by Sony or Canon in the consumer (<$2000) market.

If you're willing to spend 3-4K or more, then you can have what you're looking for, but again.... Bigger, Heavier, More Expensive....

Believe it or not...with my digital SLR and my 50-500 Sigma...I can! Here is a link to my 500mm handheld gallery. A camcorder...forget it...but still photography yes!

http://www.pbase.com/proffesor/sigma_500mm_birds

You are right and your pictures look great !

Keep in mind that you can always add a telephoto lense to increase your zoom. As everyone else has pointed out, however, you don't necessarily want to increase your zoom too much, at least if you're shooting handheld.

The original post suggested that there are 1080p HD camcorders. Consumer camcorders are 1080i max at various resolutions. You will have to spend a lot of money for 1080p.

The Canon XH-A1 is 1080i and has 20x lens with optical image stabilization and can be bought for $3500 from reputable online stores (and a $250 Canon rebate). I can zoom in full and while maintaining 3 point contact (both hands and viewfinder against eye) I can hold it pretty steady (better than some tripod footage I've seen.)

1080i/p is almost moot when viewing on any HDTV. In fact, some footage I tested at a big box store on identical TV with BRD playing at 1080p looked almost identical in terms of quality. Most people are viewing on a 720p display anyways so it doesn't matter much...

Interlace vs. Progressive isn't as big of a deal as it was with 480 SD....

Sony's FX7 can be bought for 2,500 dollars and it features a 20X zoom ratio just like their V1u and Canon's XH-A1.

Back in 2002 Canon released the GL2 and not only was the picture quality as good as more expensive hand held camcorders, its zoom ratio is 20X. What Canon should do be is release an HD version.

The Sony you mentioned is a $7000 camcorder. Not really even prosumer, by my definition...

As I mentioned twice in this thread, It's possible... Bigger, Heavier, More expensive lenses...

Also, I don't believe there are 20x HDV cameras by Sony or Canon in the consumer (<$2000) market.

If you're willing to spend 3-4K or more, then you can have what you're looking for, but again.... Bigger, Heavier, More Expensive....

$6700 plus or minus for the Sony thanks. As far as the original poster was concerned there was no mention of price range or whether they were interested in consumer, prosumer or pro models so my points are valid. You seem to be the only person mentioning price here. :D

You also don't have to do bigger and heavier to do longer than a 10X zoom, the HDV models mentioned aren't that much bigger than their consumer conterparts. No one is going to go with a full shoulder interchangeable lens camera everything else in this category is relative when doing size, weight comparisons.

Yes 1080p is coming within the next month or so. Sony's HVR-V1U already records video at 1080 30/60p albeit not at full res (1440x1080) for just under $4000 & it has a 20X Zeiss lens not much bigger than most other HDV cameras.

CKS,

In general most consumer HD camcorders are 10X, the next level of prosumer HD camcorders provide more zoom and better quality lenses and 3 chip 1/3" or 1/4" chips. If you could specify a price range maybe more useful information could be provided to you.

Troy