Speaking of "in the can", it'd sure be ironic if they showed those two, un-aired episodes from the first season, and the ratings shot way up for them.

According the whedon.info website (http://www.whedon.info/Dollhouse-Tv-Series-to-return-on.html), Dollhouse will return in January. Here is a quote:

""Dollhouse," following its double runs on December 4, 11 and 18, will return to its regular time period on Friday, January 8 at 9:00/8:00c."

This was posted yesterday (October 29).

So they skip six weeks, then run six episodes in three weeks, then skip three weeks and start up again -- the six episodes in December would, in effect, I guess, burn off what would have run Oct. 30 -- Dec. 4 if they had run straight through up to that point, and then taken a break until Jan. 8 -- which isn't an unheard-of long break for many shows, so I guess it's six of one, a half dozen of another.

How many episodes ran prior to this hiatus -- 4??? Six more would make 10, so if they pick back up Jan. 8, that would leave only three more episodes to go before it's finito, assuming they don't order any more episodes -- so Jan. 22 would be IT... that almost seems bizarre unless they ARE planning to do something more, but I've pretty much given up on second-guessing these networks.
Jeff

Speaking of "in the can", it'd sure be ironic if they showed those two, un-aired episodes from the first season, and the ratings shot way up for them.

You're joking right....the show is DOA...nobody outside of a tiny tiny niche of Whedon diehards give a flying flip about this show.

It's run it's course and will soon be forgotten by even the most hardcore "fans".

Face it, the show isn't good and America spoke by not watching it.

You're joking right....the show is DOA...nobody outside of a tiny tiny niche of Whedon diehards give a flying flip about this show.

It's run it's course and will soon be forgotten by even the most hardcore "fans".

Face it, the show isn't good and America spoke by not watching it.

My guess is the porn industry is already gearing up for its own "version" of the show, lol... Why not? They spoof everything else (they even did a spoof of "Gilligan's Island"). Something named "Dollhouse" with this sort of theme and intro is VERY prime fodder.
Jeff

You're joking right....I said "ironic".

That's a device used in humor.

My guess is the porn industry is already gearing up for its own "version" of the show...Then they'd basically be spoofing a spoof, because the show spoofs porn itself in some ways (like the beginning, and ED's carefree playing of the "whore in the bedroom" for most of the clients. ;))

What is there to really spoof? Elements of the show are already spoofing porn. :)

You just answered your own question, Rammi. If it were done right, and not by some cheap hack producer/director, it could be a "porn masterpiece," that spoofed the spoofs, by both making fun of itself AND making fun of the original show at the same time, and how it was almost like an attempt at softcore without the softcore.

I saw an R-rated movie a while back on one of the pay cable channels (I don't even remember the name of it, but it actually had real porn stars in it, most notably, Ron Jeremy, plus a couple other female names from yesteryear and a few lesser stars of today), where this porn crew goes up into the Sierra Nevada mountains to film a porn movie, but gets snowed in their first night there, and then this space alien lands, attacks Ron Jeremy, and causes a certain part of his anatomy to become a detached "lethal weapon," lol. It was pretty funny... made fun of both the porn industry and movies, and B-movies in general, the horror genre and horror movies, and all sorts of stuff, and was still fairly entertaining in its own right.

Something like that could be done with the "Dollhouse" concept anywhere from R to XXX, and if done well, could be really good. As you all already know my tastes are wide, and also include that genre, so I already have a few male and female leads in mind for the major roles, lol.
Jeff

You're joking right....the show is DOA...nobody outside of a tiny tiny niche of Whedon diehards give a flying flip about this show.

It's run it's course and will soon be forgotten by even the most hardcore "fans".

Face it, the show isn't good and America spoke by not watching it.

Seems like this show is stuck at a 2.2 million viewers....

You're joking right....the show is DOA...nobody outside of a tiny tiny niche of Whedon diehards give a flying flip about this show.

It's run it's course and will soon be forgotten by even the most hardcore "fans".

Face it, the show isn't good and America spoke by not watching it.
I agree with your prediction that Dollhouse's viewership will not improve appreciably. Although that bodes ill, the show's loyal hardcore viewers may be enough to save it, at least for awhile. I learned a long time ago that it is a big mistake to make confident pronouncements in advance about whether network suits will or will not cancel a show. Only time can tell that.

Another thread I'm active in is "Supernatural," and those are about average ratings for it on "The CW," which makes it a fairly solid performer there. I guess it's always possible "Dollhouse" could go there, assuming it's not exclusive to Fox.

As you said, gw, only time can tell, and certainly not those of us who could never prognosticate what those "suits" might do.
Jeff

Well Fox makes the show so if they get another buyer (for the right terms) it will benefit them to let it go there if they decide not to show it on Fox.

Finally got to the Sierra episode on DVR last night. Wow that was a great episode and clearly one of the top 2-3 so far, if not #1. Maybe if they had better episodes like this in season 1 the show would have fared a lot better.

Now for the speculation...who gave Echo the All Access pass? Ballard? He was noticably absent in this episode.

Now for the speculation...who gave Echo the All Access pass? Ballard? He was noticably absent in this episode.

It was Boyd wasn't it.

I still don't understand how the cop that was trying to discover and take them down is now all chummy with them and working down there.

I still don't understand how the cop that was trying to discover and take them down is now all chummy with them and working down there.

Because he knows they will kill him otherwise. That's a great motivator. Plus he has a plan and I would think of him more like a informant.

Because he knows they will kill him otherwise. That's a great motivator. Plus he has a plan and I would think of him more like a informant.

Yeah but they know who he is and what he does. I just don't get it. It's like they're both ignoring the facts.

Yeah but they know who he is and what he does. I just don't get it. It's like they're both ignoring the facts.

Well either the house is underestimating him or Bollard is overestimating his abilities.

I went to the episode list for Dollhouse on IMDb this morning and read the very brief synopses that were there. I don't think that they contained anything that could be regarded by the serious minded as spoilers but in order to protect the sensibilities of the veddy, veddy sensitive spoilerphobics around here, I will place my brief comments within spoiler markings:

I was disappointed to see that the upcoming episodes appear to be as Echo-centric as too many others have been already. The only saving grace is that a couple of interesting new characters will apparently be introduced.

I went to the episode list for Dollhouse on IMDb this morning and read the very brief synopses that were there. I don't think that they contained anything that could be regarded by the serious minded as spoilers but in order to protect the sensibilities of the veddy, veddy sensitive spoilerphobics around here, I will place my brief comments within spoiler markings:

I was disappointed to see that the upcoming episodes appear to be as Echo-centric as too many others have been already. The only saving grace is that a couple of interesting new characters will apparently be introduced.

Don't judge based on a limited show description. Plus without her it would be like Castle without Nathon Fillion.

Don't judge based on a limited show description. Plus without her it would be like Castle without Nathon Fillion.

Only my opinion, but Dollhouse is far better without Dushku than it is with her, and in fact, some of the best episodes have had very little, sometimes nothing, to do with her character.

Castle, on the other hand, is Fillion, without him the show doesn't exist.

Don't judge based on a limited show description. Plus without her it would be like Castle without Nathon Fillion.
Yeah, that's a fair comment. Dushku is the star, so it would be unreasonable to expect to see her very often in episodes in which she appeared only sparingly. Still, I got very tired of the way many of last season's All-Echo-All-the-Time episodes were written. Over all, if the IMDB synopses turn out to be anywhere close to correct, those episodes have a chance to be very good. I hope so because as matters now stand it appears that the show has one foot on a banana peel and the other on glare ice.

Well it all depends on script and direction. That's more important than who the episode is centered on, but we saw more layers to Topher then ever before.

And who is feeding Echo information that some type of event is coming up? Same person that gave her the pass?

Its dead Jim!

'Dollhouse' shuts its doors (http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2009/11/dollhouse-shuts-its-doors.html)

Hank and Eastwick, too. No tears.

Not a huge surprise. Just glad they told them before they were done shooting so they can craft it with a finite ending.

So how long before network TV implodes on itself. Since they don't count DVR ratings only the people who watch live it's only a matter of time before it implodes.

There's like 200 channels on cable and Fox is telling us 2 million or so people who watch this show there is no room for this show. What a crock.

Maybe this show would of got better ratings if Fox promoted the second season like ABC did for V.

So how long before network TV implodes on itself. Since they don't count DVR ratings only the people who watch live it's only a matter of time before it implodes.

There's like 200 channels on cable and Fox is telling us 2 million or so people who watch this show there is no room for this show. What a crock.

Maybe this show would of got better ratings if Fox promoted the second season like ABC did for V.

+1 on that for sure, Lvthunder!

At least two nights a week I have both dual DVRs going full steam for two or three of the prime-time hours (usually Thursday and Friday, before some of my shows went on hiatus, like "Dollhouse"), and in some cases, STILL had to catch a few shows in their second runs at the 11-2 cycle, thanks to cable channels like SyFy, Discovery, etc. doing that... And that's with me deliberately avoiding a few shows each season I figure I'd probably enjoy because I just don't have the time to watch but so many, even with time-shifting.

Fox -- and the other major networks -- are eventually going to have to accept the same sort of ratings The CW does, which are also generally decent ratings for most of the major cable channels... But with the old "studio models" in place, this very well MIGHT signal the "implosion" of Network TV. I have no idea exactly how the numbers play out, but I do know that at one time, the salaries for stars just kept getting bigger (I know that the cast of both "Seinfeld" AND "Friends" were able to wrangle salaries of $1 million EACH for their final seasons -- PER EPISODE!) In the case of "Friends," I can't imagine even re-run fees and DVD sales from now to eternity is EVER going to make up for that $7 million they paid JUST in salaries to the PRIMARY cast members per episode in the final season (assuming it was 22 episodes, that comes to $154 million JUST for those 7 stars!).

My guess is the days of wrangling star salaries like that may be gone for good, although I understand Letterman and Leno get MAJOR MULA (as did Johnny Carson, for that matter, back when the dollars went a lot further). But I think at some point, this audience dilution factor is going to come home to roost for good, and they're just going to have to permanently accept lower numbers, everyone in the industry is going to have to settle for what people on shows on The CW and cable get, and that will be that... There will likely still be a few standout scripted shows that pull big numbers -- even season-to-season, but I'm guessing even then, those numbers will never be what they've been in the past. There's just TOO MUCH ELSE to watch.

Remember, the Season Premiere of "John and Kate, Plus 8" WON its time slot last May. Of course there was a lot of publicity because of all the rumors swirling about (many of which turned out to be true -- I even started watching, out of curiosity -- time-shifted, of course, lol). But it won its time slot OUTRIGHT. That says something. I don't like what it says, but the simple fact is that "Dollhouse" should have been on SyFy or The CW to begin with, and it's sad that Fox and Dushku were "joined at the hip" to prevent that from happening, because Fox's expectations are just too high for this type of show.
Jeff

From The Hollywood Reporter

Whedon reacts to 'Dollhouse' cancellation

Series creator says he'll pursue Internet ventures

By Nellie Andreeva and Lesley Goldberg

Nov 11, 2009

"I don't have a lot to say," Whedon wrote in a post on Whedonesque.com. "I'm extremely proud of the people I've worked with: my star (Eliza Dushku), my staff, my cast, my crew. I feel the show is getting better pretty much every week, and I think you'll agree in the coming months. I'm grateful that we got to put it on, and then come back and put it on again."

Whedon also addressed his plans. "I'm off to pursue internet ventures/binge drinking," he wrote. "Possibly that relaxation thing I've read so much about. By the time the last episode airs, you'll know what my next project is. But for now there's a lot of work still to be done, and disappointment to bear."

"Thank you all for your support, your patience, your excellent

I still don't understand how the cop that was trying to discover and take them down is now all chummy with them and working down there.

Yup, that was a really asinine plot turn IMO. One of the reasons they are cancelling this trainwreck.

It's a stretch, but just like Boyd he wants to save them. The male emotional ties to the female dolls is what makes them make the choices throughout. Ballard got his mind scrambled because he fell in love with the neighbor who turned out to be a doll, so he made a choice to get he release.

Topher in the last episode was torn up about letting Sierra go.

Boyd building a strong emotional connection to Echo in season 1 as her handler.

At least they are allowing Whedon and company to complete this season's 13-ep run; and give the story a conclusion, as they have not yet made the final two episodes.

At least they are allowing Whedon and company to complete this season's 13-ep run; and give the story a conclusion, as they have not yet made the final two episodes.

That's true. Also isn't there another word to use instead of canceled. When I think of a show that got canceled they stop showing episodes. Dollhouse really isn't going to end until the end of January.

So how long before network TV implodes on itself. Since they don't count DVR ratings only the people who watch live it's only a matter of time before it implodes.

There's like 200 channels on cable and Fox is telling us 2 million or so people who watch this show there is no room for this show. What a crock.

Maybe this show would of got better ratings if Fox promoted the second season like ABC did for V.

+1 on that for sure, Lvthunder!

At least two nights a week I have both dual DVRs going full steam for two or three of the prime-time hours (usually Thursday and Friday, before some of my shows went on hiatus, like "Dollhouse"), and in some cases, STILL had to catch a few shows in their second runs at the 11-2 cycle, thanks to cable channels like SyFy, Discovery, etc. doing that... And that's with me deliberately avoiding a few shows each season I figure I'd probably enjoy because I just don't have the time to watch but so many, even with time-shifting.
First, I too hate that Dollhouse got cancelled. When I look at the dreck that gets renewed, mostly reality shows it seems, I shake my head in wonder that the perfectly serviceable Dollhouse has been cancelled. I also agree with the proposition that the networks need to wakeup to the reality of modern TV. These days DVRs and a zillion cable channels mean that we can be exponentially more selective than once was the case. More and more I find myself recording week night football games, to be watched sans commercials and a without lot of talking head blather, rather than sticking with network fare that is marginal or worse. On top of that I continue to record and later watch a few (carefully selected) network series such as House, Glee, and Dexter. Cox OKC now has more than 70 HD channels, including a bunch that are dedicated to sports. Is it any wonder then that I can keep two 2-tuner DVRs occupied several nights a week and still watch only a few network shows but none of them in real time?

OK so I was thinking about this while I was trying to sleep last night. If Fox could get $1 per person who watches the show from all the adds they play during the hour and Dollhouse gets 3 million viewers. I saw that it costs $800k to make each episode (I assume that also includes rent for the stages) then Fox would have $2.2 million dollars left over. Is that not enough to make the business plan work?

First, I too hate that Dollhouse got cancelled. When I look at the dreck that gets renewed, mostly reality shows it seems, I shake my head in wonder that the perfectly serviceable Dollhouse has been cancelled. I also agree with the proposition that the networks need to wakeup to the reality of modern TV. These days DVRs and a zillion cable channels mean that we can be exponentially more selective than once was the case. More and more I find myself recording week night football games, to be watched sans commercials and a without lot of talking head blather, rather than sticking with network fare that is marginal or worse. On top of that I continue to record and later watch a few (carefully selected) network series such as House, Glee, and Dexter. Cox OKC now has more than 70 HD channels, including a bunch that are dedicated to sports. Is it any wonder then that I can keep two 2-tuner DVRs occupied several nights a week and still watch only a few network shows but none of them in real time?

I'm with you there. But when are the networks going to realize that those reality shows are going to end up hurting them in the long run. Which show do you think has made more money Cheers or Dancing With The Stars. Who's going to pay syndication fees for any of this reality stuff.

I'm also glad to see that Joss' next adventure is going to be online. There's no one there to tell him to change the first 5 episodes in a way the fans don't like.

So I guess at the end of January my new favorite show is going to be Castle.

That's true. Also isn't there another word to use instead of canceled. When I think of a show that got canceled they stop showing episodes. Dollhouse really isn't going to end until the end of January.

"Dollhouse is not being renewed."

Better?

"Dollhouse is not being renewed."

Better?

Yes. It softens the blow.

Maybe we could say the program is being sent to the attic.... :)

So I guess at the end of January my new favorite show is going to be Castle.

really? I mean, I like Nathan Fillian too, but Castle is far from the best show on TV.

While Dushku in a tight tank top is always nice to see, we still have the Internet for that! ;)

I guess the 1-2 million more viewers, higher critical buzz & the presense of JJ "I can do no wrong in entertainment" Abrams is why FOX keps FRINGE alive during it's Thursday beatings.

OF course, I actually watch FRINGE - never caught Dollhouse past the opener.

But for the fans, this does suck. I feel for you. At least FOX was cool enough to let the show run it's course thru 2010 & not drop the ball w/o any resolution.

Whedon focusing on an internet project could be a good thing. "Dr Horrible" was fun.

While Dushku in a tight tank top is always nice to see, we still have the Internet for that! ;)

I guess the 1-2 million more viewers, higher critical buzz & the presense of JJ "I can do no wrong in entertainment" Abrams is why FOX keps FRINGE alive during it's Thursday beatings.

OF course, I actually watch FRINGE - never caught Dollhouse past the opener.

But for the fans, this does suck. I feel for you. At least FOX was cool enough to let the show run it's course thru 2010 & not drop the ball w/o any resolution.

Is FRINGE really doing bad? I didn't like it at first but my friends did and then I caught up on it - it's gotten really good.

Is FRINGE really doing bad? I didn't like it at first but my friends did and then I caught up on it - it's gotten really good.

Its doing better than most anything else FOX has tried in that brutal Thursday timeslot.

Can they put terminator back on now? It was far more interesting.

Maybe we could say the program is being sent to the attic.... :)

Perfect! :D

Maybe we could say the program is being sent to the attic.... :)

Or we send send the Fox executives in to see Topher to get a treatment. If the terminator fans pay him enough maybe he can get their show back too.

Its doing better than most anything else FOX has tried in that brutal Thursday timeslot.

Here I thought Monday night was worse. we lost: Journymen, Life, My own worst enemy and New Amsterdam(sure there are others but I forget)

While Dushku in a tight tank top is always nice to see, we still have the Internet for that! ;)I always thought she was kind of built like a tube sock myself.

First, I too hate that Dollhouse got cancelled. When I look at the dreck that gets renewed, mostly reality shows it seems, I shake my head in wonder that the perfectly serviceable Dollhouse has been cancelled.C'mon gwsat - if anyone is smart enough around here to know know how this stuff works, you are (you should be used to it by now, too).

Anything that actually costs money to make is held to higher ratings standards.

I was recently reminded of an old school FOX misstep...

Back in 1996 FOX did a joint venture with the BBC to make a Doctor Who movie in an attempt to revive the show and perhaps serve as a Pilot for a new American Who series.

It didn't do well...

But approx 10 years after that (2005) BBC launched the new (and currently running) Doctor Who and it is popular in the UK and so popular in the US that people wait in line to get torrents rather than wait for the American broadcast... so much so that BBC America has shortened the US re-air time significantly this year so more people in the US get it sooner.

The point here being... FOX had rights to develop a property and they didn't do it right... but someone else was able to make a big deal out of the same property a little while later.

Kind of makes you think.

C'mon gwsat - if anyone is smart enough around here to know know how this stuff works, you are (you should be used to it by now, too).

Anything that actually costs money to make is held to higher ratings standards.


Hence the reason Leno is still on 5 nights a week @ 10:00pm, despite all the advertisers, critics & affiliates grumbling & the consistantly nosediving ratings. That show is essentially FREE for NBC compared to the alternatives (scripted shows or dumping Jay & paying out his contract)

I was recently reminded of an old school FOX misstep...

Back in 1996 FOX did a joint venture with the BBC to make a Doctor Who movie in an attempt to revive the show and perhaps serve as a Pilot for a new American Who series.

It didn't do well...

But approx 10 years after that (2005) BBC launched the new (and currently running) Doctor Who and it is popular in the UK and so popular in the US that people wait in line to get torrents rather than wait for the American broadcast... so much so that BBC America has shortened the US re-air time significantly this year so more people in the US get it sooner.

The point here being... FOX had rights to develop a property and they didn't do it right... but someone else was able to make a big deal out of the same property a little while later.

Kind of makes you think.

True, but it surely required that franchise's likely larger folowing in the UK (was WHO ever more than cult status here?) in addition to the fact that the BBC just handled everything better.

True, but it surely required that franchise's likely larger folowing in the UK (was WHO ever more than cult status here?) in addition to the fact that the BBC just handled everything better.

Granted, it's a big UK following... but I was thinking about how strong the US following is.

SciFi got good ratings for Dr Who when they had it the first few seasons of the new series even after a lot of folks had already torrented it.

Now BBC America has it and they can show it sooner than other US networks because of closer ties (presumably a leg up in negotiating) to the BBC in the UK.

The main thought I had here was... if BBC had done that movie on their own instead of a joint effort with FOX, then perhaps we'd have had new Dr Who 10 years earlier than we eventually did.

Same thing goes with shows like Firefly or Dollhouse where admittedly FOX meddled in the initial episodes of both series either in terms of airing episodes out of order or asking for major content changes... and it just seems like repeating history.

FOX goes to a property (in this case the brain of Joss Whedon) that has been proven in the past... then meddles with it... so we never know if Whedon's original concept would have done better or not.

In the Dr Who example, I think its perhaps a closer comparison of where the BBC went back to the drawing board and did it right on their own without FOX... and it ended up doing much better.

C'mon gwsat - if anyone is smart enough around here to know know how this stuff works, you are (you should be used to it by now, too).

Anything that actually costs money to make is held to higher ratings standards.
I understand that the networks prefer stuff like the reality shows and Leno to scripted dramas because their production costs are so much lower. Obviously, then, the cheaper shows don't have to produce the kind of numbers to survive that the scripted shows must have. Nevertheless, I hate that kind of stuff and won't watch it. Period. Paragraph. End of report.

The up side of all this is that, in some ways, this is the golden age of television, or at least sports television. It is a rare week that ESPN doesn't show at least one college football game that is a truly intriguing matchup. The same thing is true when basketball rolls around, only more so.:) I'm never going to run out of stuff to watch. Come to think of it, I guess that's the result of having two 2-tuner DVRs and a Netflix subscription.

The problem is with the ratings system...period. That the viewing habits of only a few people (between 1000 - 5000) decide what over 300 million people are watching is ludicrous. No one has ever asked me (or anyone I've ever met or known) what I watch.

The problem is with the ratings system...period. That the viewing habits of only a few people (between 1000 - 5000) decide what over 300 million people are watching is ludicrous. No one has ever asked me (or anyone I've ever met or known) what I watch.

Accurate or not, everyone wants to know how well a show is doing. I was asked to participate and did. I also tired of it very fast and decided not to do it anymore after my initial "commitment" was over. It was tedious, and it was before they started asking any questions about DVRs. I couldn't even be honest, because some of the shows I liked most were on my DVR. I watched them later (no place for that in the booklet I had).

It almost felt like giving up my right to vote when I declined the next offer to participate, but I got over it.

Accurate or not, everyone wants to know how well a show is doing. I was asked to participate and did. I also tired of it very fast and decided not to do it anymore after my initial "commitment" was over. It was tedious, and it was before they started asking any questions about DVRs. I couldn't even be honest, because some of the shows I liked most were on my DVR. I watched them later (no place for that in the booklet I had).

It almost felt like giving up my right to vote when I declined the next offer to participate, but I got over it.

Of course everyone wants to know. I think there are better ways of doing it though. Every DVR, cable box, Directv, and Dish can be programmed if they aren't already to let the provider know what you're watching. I bet that would be more accurate then what a 1000 people write down in a little book.

The problem is with the ratings system...period. That the viewing habits of only a few people (between 1000 - 5000) decide what over 300 million people are watching is ludicrous. No one has ever asked me (or anyone I've ever met or known) what I watch.

The bigger problem is that their sample skews heavily towards seniors and those with dated A/V equipment.

Yeah, that's the really screwy thing about ratings... they are assuming people are accurately reporting their viewing habits and compounding that assumption by assuming it applies across the board to other people that they never ask.

It would be like instead of each of us being able to register to vote... they only allowed a handful of the state to vote and then on your behalf assumed you agreed with those people.

Or instead of taking your order when you go to McDonalds... they ask the first few people that come that morning, and then just give everybody else that day the same thing no matter whether you want it or not.

Same thing goes with shows like Firefly or Dollhouse where admittedly FOX meddled in the initial episodes of both series either in terms of airing episodes out of order or asking for major content changes... and it just seems like repeating history.

FOX goes to a property (in this case the brain of Joss Whedon) that has been proven in the past... then meddles with it... so we never know if Whedon's original concept would have done better or not.

Isn't that called "micro-managing"?:D

It's hard for any show to be successful when it's on a friday, and is too hard for normal viewers to grasp. Dollhouse never grew it's audience and thus canceled.

so we never know if Whedon's original concept would have done better or not...

...yes, let us not underestimate that original concept. It played like a pitch that simply couldn't stand up to the rigors of development: Dushku as star, FBI guy as nemesis turned helper, how the hell does something that far underground both stay hidden and attract clients, how does the show keep an ensemble people like and want to return to when a third of the time they are comatose blanks and the other two thirds they are various identities that are beyond the range of most of the stars' acting abilities...

and so forth.

they only allowed a handful of the state to vote and then on your behalf assumed you agreed with those people.

You just described the Electoral College, I think :D

The great Samuel Langhorn Clemens, aka Mark Twain, said, "There are three kinds of lies...
Lies,
Damned lies,
and Statistics.

Having taken a statistics course as an elective during my brief foray into graduate school (somewhat of a "crip course," if you ask me, since other than me almost the entire class was state teachers taking one of the two classes they need every five years to recertify, so the teacher MADE SURE anyone who paid attention got an "A"). At any rate, I DID learn a bit about statistics, and came to disagree with my literary hero just a little bit -- not a lot, but a bit, lol.

I went into the class wanting to gripe about this very thing -- the Nielsen ratings (and other national opinion polls that seek to quantify the entire nation based on only a few thousand people). It was explained that in a TRULY RANDOM study, the standard deviation on a sample of 5,000 vs. a sample of, say, 5,000,000, might only be 3-5%, if that, and he actually showed the math to prove it, but that works ONLY if the samples are TRULY random, and only if the samples are truly statistically sound.

How do you get a "random sample?" It was explained in class that statisticians (today using computers, but in the old days, using longhand math) use complicated formulas in order to determine exactly HOW you make CERTAIN your selection of subjects is ENTIRELY random. Choosing every 10th person isn't random. Choosing one here and one there isn't random, either. The Statisticians would create a route that says something like, "Start at the center of the city and drive 2.5 miles South, then take the first residential road to the right. Then take the second road to the left, then the third on the right and go to the 7th house on the left. If no one is home, begin again by following the following NEW PATTERN from this point..." (This sort of stuff would drive me crazy, lol! I'd hope if they did that, they AT LEAST made sure there WERE roads and homes at those places! :rolleyes:)

While Nielsen MAY still be able to find truly random families (although at this point I'm doubtful even of that), I have SERIOUS doubts as to the ongoing validity of the data Nielsen is gathering in this day and age, even if they DO have truly random samples... As you said, CPanther, the samples likely skew heavily in one direction or another (I have no idea where you got YOUR direction, although that seems to make sense). But I just really don't think the ratings systems are accurate any more, and furthermore, with two-way cable in SO many households and the ability to tell what satellite viewers are watching through their two-way box communications, I see no reason they couldn't, at the very least, get ALL THAT DATA, which would leave ONLY people who get TV solely over-the-air or with cable with no two-way communications (like with no cable box) having to be "guessed at" via the Nielsen Ratings. And as Joe said, if someone wants to vote for one show but actually watched another, he or she will write in the show he wants. And if there's an antiquated box that can record ONLY the show someone is watching LIVE, well, that just completely ignores anything on DVR. Sometimes I watch the show I like THE LEAST Live, because I might want to KEEP the other show(s), or at least watch it/them more than once.

Most of us have Microsoft ask us if we mind our computers sending them feedback on our usage when we set up a new operating system or program, such as Internet Explorer, or Media Center, so they can tell what features people are using, and how, and how much, to help them "better tailor the user experience," and they claim they'll keep all information anonymous. As "slimy" as that sounds, I do it for the very reason they claim. We probably have a similar arrangement with our cable boxes and satellite boxes and don't even know it -- agreed to it without even knowing it, in most cases... Again, I don't care, so long as they don't start using that information in some personal way to target me as a customer or selling it to clients (but if they use it for ratings, that's OK). Don't you guys agree?

There's no telling if this would have saved "Dollhouse" and some of our other favorite shows (like "Pushing Daisies") or not -- at least ABC DID finish that show's run over the summer, although they SHOULD HAVE finished it like Fox is doing with "Dollhouse." I have to give Fox at least A LITTLE CREDIT for that.

Oh, and thanks, folks, for mentioning that "Dr. Who" is now on BBC America... That hasn't been one of my MUST-CHECK channels, and since DISH still doesn't carry it in HD, and I have my Guide set up for HD-Only most of the time, I keep missing it when I'm searching. I DID catch the five-episode run of "Torchwood: Children of Earth," and that led me to catch new episodes of (oh heck, I can't think of the name -- that show about the holes in time, with dinosaurs and stuff -- was on SyFy, too), and I caught ONE MORE "Dr. Who," but it didn't look like any more were coming any time soon and since DISH still hadn't added it to the HD lineup, it sort of "fell off my RADAR" Guess I need to put it back on there.
Jeff

It would be like instead of each of us being able to register to vote... they only allowed a handful of the state to vote and then on your behalf assumed you agreed with those people.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you're not that familiar with the electoral college.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you're not that familiar with the electoral college.

Let's try not to jump down THAT rabbit hole, huh??? :eek:

or if you're not that familiar with the electoral college.

I was always sort of mystified SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK never tackled that one during its 70s prime - seemed like it would have been in their wheelhouse (although they did finally create one as a bonus for the DVD release a few years back).

...Having taken a statistics course as an elective during my brief foray into graduate school ...I went into the class wanting to gripe about this very thing -- the Nielsen ratings (and other national opinion polls that seek to quantify the entire nation based on only a few thousand people)....Jeff
My degree is in Math and Secondary Ed and I took my 'sticks classes from the Psych department. (now that was an interesting group of students and instructors)

My problem with Nielsen is that they ignore way too many viewers to be even close to random. For gauging actual viewers of shows, I don't think they do a very good job anymore. For counting viewers of commercials during the shows. I'm guessing that they are pretty close. No one seems to want to admit that they are just a Commercial Viewing Service, however, but that is what I think most of their numbers actually mean. That could have the effect of moving most "interesting" shows off of Broadcast and limiting the pool of actors to those willing to work for "cable" wages.

The bigger problem is that their sample skews heavily towards seniors and those with dated A/V equipment.When I was a Nielsen family, it was a summer week when literally nothing I watched was on the air (not even in reruns), and the friends of mine who are sometimes around to watch stuff were all out of town. My booklet was almost completely blank. Ack.

Funny that no one questions the shows on the top of the Nielson ratings though. If they are wrong about the bottom then they should be wrong about the top yet talking to people I know one hell of a lot of people that watch the top ten shows but not so many that watch the bottom 10. unscientific, yes but interesting in a way.

You just described the Electoral College, I think :D

Or an ACORN exit poll.

All this talk about the Nielsen's reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit where a Nielsen family was bemoaning the responsibility and how they could personally change what people saw. The wife says "He took me out to dinner for the first time in ages one Sunday night and WE LOST PUNKY!"

LOL. :)

All this talk about the Nielsen's reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit where a Nielsen family was bemoaning the responsibility and how they could personally change what people saw. The wife says "He took me out to dinner for the first time in ages one Sunday night and WE LOST PUNKY!"

LOL. :)

LMAO! And THAT reminds me of once on "Night Court" when someone said they saw something on "60 Minutes" and NOBODY had heard of the show, then Bull said, "It comes on at the same time as 'Punky Brewster,'" and everyone said, "Oh." :D

Geesh, it frosts me, but I keep thinking it's the "Punky Brewster" mentality that keeps getting shows like "Dollhouse" canceled! :eek:

Please accept my apologies for inadvertently picking a real-world example (electoral college) as an example. At the time of my post, I actually was thinking not of presidential elections but rather of voting on a particular referendum or something.

But it was a bad example that distracted from the point.... the point being, taking small samples and then basing assumptions and then quoting ratings values as absolute fact seems to be bad math to me.

It's kind of like years ago when they started including actual record sales in the ratings to determine top records/songs... and everyone was surprised to find out the effect that had on songs we were told were "top 10" vs ones that were actually outselling those songs and thus were more likely "top 10" than previously thought.

I'd love to see how actual measured viewing would shake up the assumptions made over the years.

I know TiVo has the data your asking for HDMe2 (at least for TiVo users). I'm not sure they release the info though. I think you have to buy it from them.

Every DVR, cable box, Directv, and Dish can be programmed if they aren't already to let the provider know what you're watching. I bet that would be more accurate then what a 1000 people write down in a little book.But then it comes down to the issue of privacy. Neither I nor my family want anyone to know what we are watching every minute of every day on every TV. If you think about it, I bet you don't either.

But then it comes down to the issue of privacy. Neither I nor my family want anyone to know what we are watching every minute of every day on every TV. If you think about it, I bet you don't either.

But if it is done right there won't be a way to tell who is who. Also if it means the shows I like don't get canceled I'd volunteer.

We probably have a similar arrangement with our cable boxes and satellite boxes and don't even know it -- agreed to it without even knowing it, in most cases... Again, I don't care, so long as they don't start using that information in some personal way to target me as a customer or selling it to clients (but if they use it for ratings, that's OK). Don't you guys agree?I do care. I don't want anyone knowing what is being watched in my house at any given time. I call that "Invasion of Privacy!"

Soon, cable TV may start watching you - Targeted ads track interest, viewing habits; privacy advocates worried (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30094299/)

But if it is done right there won't be a way to tell who is who.:rolleyes: Trusting soul, aren't you?

The big problem here is that advertiser-supported "free" TV is becoming unprofitable. The advent of PVR's means that an ever-larger number of viewers are "zipping" through the commercials, making the money advertisers spend less and less worthwhile. That's why Nielsen doesn't count shows that are recorded for later viewing.

I do care. I don't want anyone knowing what is being watched in my house at any given time. I call that "Invasion of Privacy!"

Soon, cable TV may start watching you - Targeted ads track interest, viewing habits; privacy advocates worried (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30094299/)

:rolleyes: Trusting soul, aren't you?

The big problem here is that advertiser-supported "free" TV is becoming unprofitable. The advent of PVR's means that an ever-larger number of viewers are "zipping" through the commercials, making the money advertisers spend less and less worthwhile. That's why Nielsen doesn't count shows that are recorded for later viewing.

Check your agreement with your provider. I would be willing to bet there is already language there to allow them to do that.

TiVo's are open enough that some privacy minded programmers can tell how they are collecting the data. If they aren't doing it right they write on their blog and three days later everyone knows about it.

I'm usually on the right-to-privacy thing... but consider:

Your phone keeps a record of all calls you make... so your phone records can be used to see who you talk to on a regular basis. This is essentially the same privacy issue many are afraid of when applied to TV watching.

If you buy movie tickets with a credit card, or if you use any frequent shopper discount card at a grocery/drug store then there is a paper trail of all those purchases as well.

In the case of movies... I'm not sure there's anything you can watch on your TV that there should be a problem if anyone else knew you were watching it. Presumably anything on your TV (via satellite/cable/OTA) is legal to watch or you couldn't watch it in the first place... so I'm not sure what harm comes from others using that data.

Now, opting out should always be possible... I'd support that... but the more of us who do opt out, the less we can complain if our show gets canceled.

The bigger problem is that their sample skews heavily towards seniors and those with dated A/V equipment.

Exactly, I was to be a Nielsen household, but, the Nielsen techs were flummoxed by my DVHS deck and other advanced equipment, so someone who has had many people over to watch many a show is not in the running. But, as we see the Corporate owners (i.e. GE --> NBC, Viacom --> CBS, etc.) owners are very conservative, and Nielsen takes that attitued to heart so they're the last to get 'the new tech'.

And it does seem I'm recommending mostly cancelled TV shows to many people.

I do care. I don't want anyone knowing what is being watched in my house at any given time. I call that "Invasion of Privacy!"

Soon, cable TV may start watching you - Targeted ads track interest, viewing habits; privacy advocates worried (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30094299/)

:rolleyes: Trusting soul, aren't you?

The big problem here is that advertiser-supported "free" TV is becoming unprofitable. The advent of PVR's means that an ever-larger number of viewers are "zipping" through the commercials, making the money advertisers spend less and less worthwhile. That's why Nielsen doesn't count shows that are recorded for later viewing.

Tilting at windmills, are you, cctv??? :rolleyes:

So I assume you watch everything with your own antennas and don't get any cable or satellite feeds or have any Tivo boxes or anything, because as has already been mentioned, in all likelihood, IF YOU DO that information is already READILY available to your providers and possibly stored in a database somewhere already...

The KEY is what is DONE with that data. IF it is used ONLY in aggregate, anonymous ways, such as to determine ratings, trends and so forth, I have NO PROBLEM with anyone taking my TV and DVR viewing, recording and deleting habits and doing whatever they want with them.

IF, on the other hand, without my EXPRESS PERMISSION, I begin receiving targeted advertising for, say, all sorts of dog-related things and I haven't done anything that could give anyone an inkling I'm a dog owner or lover OTHER than watching shows like "The Dog Whisperer," (which I do), and several other dog-related shows, that's another story, entirely.

I have readily given my approval for the former, but NOT for the latter. Customers of Sears and Kmart did the same a year or so ago on their websites, only to end up with cookies on their computers that tracked not only the purchases and products they looked at on Kmart.com and Sears.com, but also just about everything else they did online -- even BANKING transactions. THAT was NOT OK, and when it was discovered, not only did Kmart and Sears have to "undo" what they did and make major apologies to their customers, they got hit with a big fine by the government, as well.

When Microsoft asks if they can collect "customer enhancement data" for utilities such as Media Center, they provide a link for their Privacy Statement (I've clicked it every time, to make sure it hasn't changed). They promise to keep everything anonymous.

I see no reason satellite, Tivo and Cable providers cannot do the same in order to provide a much more accurate picture of TV viewing habits, and so long as everyone makes LEGAL OBLIGATIONS to keep all data anonymous, such violations will not only be of your own privacy, but will put them in violation of FEDERAL LAW.

Where it could get "sticky" is if they start offering "incentives" for some folks to allow their data to NOT be anonymous, so they can receive "special offers" and so forth (and they quite likely would), because then it would be fairly easy to claim an "oops" moment if suddenly EVERYONE'S data was public, if even for a short period, so I guess there IS some reason for concern.

But I still see it as "tilting at windmills" because I see the day it comes as inevitable, if it's not already here and we just don't know it.
Jeff

Good post Jeff. That should be the final word on that subject.

Good post Jeff. That should be the final word on that subject.

Thanks, lonwolf... I would certainly hope so, but I'm not holding my breath, lol.

I know I can get a bit carried away and long-winded sometimes (I'm the first to admit I can be "a windbag" at times), but I really like to get my point across clearly, and sometimes I just think that takes a good bit of exposition.
Jeff

Well, as someone who several times tried to be brief and concise only to have my points totally misunderstood, I can relate.:)

The two episodes last night were just incredible. The big twist halfway through the first episode was extremely well disguised. Summer got to play a character a bit different from her previous roles and did a solid job with it. And most of all, Enver Gjokaj again tops himself in his acting performance (he might just do a better Topher than Fran does). Heck, the entire cast and writing staff knocked these episodes out of the park. It also appears that the main plot threads have the potential to improve even further. Thank you Fox for continuing to air the remaining episodes despite the low ratings. I know at least I will keep watching.

It was fantastic finally seeing a Dollhouse episode worthy of Joss's reputation. 100% pleased last night. What a night too, SGU also hit a home run.

Too bad they didn't have episodes of this quality the first season. There might not have been a cancellation. There might even have been awards. What a brilliant role for Summer Glau and an opportunity for the actors to really exercise their chops.

Agreed across the board. Great episodes.

Let me preface by saying I enjoyed both episodes... The dueling Tophers was probably one of the best bits of the series, at least for comedic value anyway.

Summer seemed very much Summer-like to me, though... I like her... but it didn't seem like a stretch of a role... it was just a slightly saner "River".

The "twist" didn't seem too twisty to me... as it started to seem very obvious not too long into the episode. It was a good misdirect, but Joss is somewhat known for the disdirect, so if you watch enough you start to actually expect the unexpected with him.

I'm not 100% sure what happened at the end of the 2nd episode. It felt like something was missing, so we kinda don't know what happened between the house scene and the senate hearing scene.

I'm not 100% sure what happened at the end of the 2nd episode. It felt like something was missing, so we kinda don't know what happened between the house scene and the senate hearing scene.

Agreed. Something essential was cut. The only connect I made was that agent in the Senate Hearing Room carrying in, and then out, a box.

Otherwise a very tasty 2 hours of what Dollhouse can be when good writing meets ensemble acting.

"You've woke up a lot of people. And they all think you're a bitch."

I'm thinking Joss had that line and created the whole show in order to use it.:) This was whedon at his best and it doesn't get any better than that for me. What was especcially intriging was how Caroline's backstory keeps expanding-anyone catch Bennet's comment? About Caroline "being special. She controls people". or words to that effect...As dissapointed as I am that DH has been cancelled, part of me is kinda glad that we won't have to wait several years to find out whats going on. I really can't blame Fox, and it was nice to announce it while they were still filming episodes so they have a chance to reach some sort of conclusion, Although I'm sure they will leave it openended enough to go on if interest is there. Anyways, I'm not too concerned right now. Planning to just enjoy the ride.

T
IF, on the other hand, without my EXPRESS PERMISSION, I begin receiving targeted advertising for, say, all sorts of dog-related things and I haven't done anything that could give anyone an inkling I'm a dog owner or lover OTHER than watching shows like "The Dog Whisperer," (which I do), and several other dog-related shows, that's another story, entirely.

I have readily given my approval for the former, but NOT for the latter.

So Jeff your against the advertising model used by the Internet, apparently.

Whats wrong exactly, with targeted ads? If you have to watch ads in exchange for content, why not watch ads that may actually pertain to you?

It was fantastic finally seeing a Dollhouse episode worthy of Joss's reputation. 100% pleased last night. What a night too, SGU also hit a home run.

SGU was on? My stupid-a$$ DVR didn't record it.

This week's episodes had Joss Whedon's fingerprints all over them. They were funny, sly, and thoroughly entertaining. If I squinted my eyes, I could see the late, great Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The only weak link was the remarkably untalented actress with the chipmunk voice, who played the senator's "wife," Stacey Scowley. She MUST be related to one of the producers.:) The guy who played the senator, though, was quite good, I thought, as were the show's regulars. I also liked Summer Glau as the weird, devious genius, Bennett Halverson. I think the character is intriguing and look forward to seeing where the writers go with her. Anyway, this weeks episodes were good stuff and I look forward to next week, when we will apparently get another two hours worth of Dollhouse.

It seemed to me that the Senator and his wife were picked for resemblance to George and Laura Bush. As I am a liberal, that just made me like the show even more. These were probably the best eps to date, and what's coming looks good too. :D

did you just say "the guy who played the Senator" and voice your love for Buffy in the same review? :P That was Alexis Denishof, Wesley from Buffy and Alyson Hannigan's real life husband.


the eps were decent. No Whiskey or Sierra, wtf? I though Summer did pretty well, though her motives were sort of unclear. We'll probably hear more about that.

I feel like the show is one of the most disjointed "arc" dramas ever made. Each episode is way too random standalone to be part of any arc, but they also try to make them fit into a grander story, which is never really clear.

I feel like there are way too many balls in the air and I fear they all won't come down before the final episode.

This week's episodes had Joss Whedon's fingerprints all over them. They were funny, sly, and thoroughly entertaining. If I squinted my eyes, I could see the late, great Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The only weak link was the remarkably untalented actress with the chipmunk voice, who played the senator's "wife," Stacey Scowley. She MUST be related to one of the producers.:) The guy who played the senator, though, was quite good, I thought, as were the show's regulars. I also liked Summer Glau as the weird, devious genius, Bennett Halverson. I think the character is intriguing and look forward to seeing where the writers go with her. Anyway, this weeks episodes were good stuff and I look forward to next week, when we will apparently get another two hours worth of Dollhouse.

Alexis Denisof is the senator, and also (like Dushku) a part of the Buffyverse (both Buffy and Angel). He played a watcher in those two Joss Whedon shows and is British. He and Alyson Hannigan (Willow from Buffy) had a baby girl this summer. When I was in England in 2000, I ran into him at the new Globe theatre the day before I returned to the states. He was directing sword fighting for a production of Hamlet, and I spotted him from a distance. He overheard me inquiring about him when I went to the information desk and came over to say hi - a very accessible, warm person.

For a good six months before my trip, I had worked on creating a Buffy the Vampire Slayer interactive CD, with an episode guide, trivia game, photo and video highlights, and actor bios. (Yes, I know that qualifies me as an uberGeek.) I did the project to teach myself how to use a piece of software called Director, for creating interactive computer projects, but it was a real labor of love. To this day, Buffy remains my favorite TV show of all time. Those ten minutes or so of speaking about Buffy, Angel and Shakespeare with Alexis Denisof are indelibly etched in my brain.

did you just say "the guy who played the senator" and voice your love for buffy in the same review? :p that was alexis denishof, wesley from buffy and alyson hannigan's real life husband.


T.

+1

Mr. Clark, I envy you.:)

It seemed to me that the Senator and his wife were picked for resemblance to George and Laura Bush. As I am a liberal, that just made me like the show even more. These were probably the best eps to date, and what's coming looks good too. :D

I actually doubt that was the motivation... Whedon always goes back to previous actors that have worked with him before to mine for roles... so I'd wager 99.9% of the reason of hiring both those actor/actress had to do with their roles on Buffy (and in Denisof's case Angel as well).

It seemed to me that the Senator and his wife were picked for resemblance to George and Laura Bush. As I am a liberal, that just made me like the show even more. These were probably the best eps to date, and what's coming looks good too. :D

Hmm, I just thought they were a typical politcal couple with no real-life party association. Sounds like you're bringing your own bias to the table.:rolleyes:

did you just say "the guy who played the Senator" and voice your love for Buffy in the same review? :P That was Alexis Denishof, Wesley from Buffy and Alyson Hannigan's real life husband.
+1
Take an even strain, guys. Although I watched every Buffy episode ever made, Alexis Denisof's last appearance on Buffy was more than ten years ago, and the very convincing American accent he used in this week's Dollhouse episodes, coupled with the passage of those 10 years, kept me from immediately recognizing him. I can't resist noting, too, that I at least spelled his name right:)

yes, you should be proud.:) Seriously, I don't think anybody got too riled up-no more than you did anyways about the misspelling. You should have expected it to be pointed out.
Every episode ever made, huh? What did you think of the original Willow? Sorry, couldn't resist...:)

yes, you should be proud.:) Seriously, I don't think anybody got too riled up-no more than you did anyways about the misspelling. You should have expected it to be pointed out
Ordinarily I do not engage in spelling flames but I got called out on questionable grounds. Thus, I pointed out that the OP had misspelled the last name of the subject of his criticism, Alexis Denisof. You missed that, too, and +1ed the OPs criticism of my good faith post, which, after all, had complimented Denisof's performance in this week's Dollhouse. I merely called your collective gaffe to your collective attention. That said, can we put this petty squabble behind us and move on now? In the event you are a compulsive last worder, I concede it to you.:)

Hmm, I just thought they were a typical politcal couple with no real-life party association. Sounds like you're bringing your own bias to the table.:rolleyes:
That's what I thought, too. The senator and his squeaky voiced wife struck me as a couple of careerists pols who were a lot more interested in looking out for Number One than they were in advancing any particular ideology.

Take an even strain, guys. Although I watched every Buffy episode ever made, Alexis Denisof's last appearance on Buffy was more than ten years ago, and the very convincing American accent he used in this week's Dollhouse episodes, coupled with the passage of those 10 years, kept me from immediately recognizing him. I can't resist noting, too, that I at least spelled his name right:)
I like how you point out that you spelled his name correctly, but didnt realize hes actually American :).

Take an even strain, guys. Although I watched every Buffy episode ever made, Alexis Denisof's last appearance on Buffy was more than ten years ago, and the very convincing American accent he used in this week's Dollhouse episodes, coupled with the passage of those 10 years, kept me from immediately recognizing him. I can't resist noting, too, that I at least spelled his name right:)

Buffy was my favorite series ever made and I noticed Alexis right off, even with no British accent. But I would not have claimed I was certain.

- Tom

Here's a bit of biography on Denisof. (http://solitaryphoenix.com/AngelADWesley.html) He is NOT British, as I incorrectly stated earlier. He was not a part of the bios I created for the CD I did on Buffy. When I met him in London (and, as I recall, he spoke with an English accent) I just assumed he was English. My bad. He did live and work there for some time, so it had to be easier for him to adopt a convincing accent than someone who lives here. I suppose that also shows how easily I can be fooled by an American doing an English accent.

I'd be interested in how Brits feel about Americans doing English accents. There are any number of Brits/Australians doing standard American accents very well, IMO, but you seldom hear them doing other American accents, such as east coast or northern. Gary Oldman is an exception to that, of course. But I'd really like to know how Brits feel about Americans doing English or Australian accents. Any takers on that topic?

Edit: reading that bio a little more carefully, I noticed this:

"In addition to acting, Alexis is qualified as a fight choreographer, which, oddly enough, he did for a production of Hamlet which happened to star Mark Metcalf as Claudius. Buffy fans know that Mark played The Master on that show."

That may have been the production for which he was doing the sword fight choreography when I was there. It was a production of Hamlet. Since it was also the night before I left, I couldn't stay to see it. It's a small world.

Ordinarily I do not engage in spelling flames but I got called out on questionable grounds. Thus, I pointed out that the OP had misspelled the last name of the subject of his criticism, Alexis Denisof. You missed that, too, and +1ed the OPs criticism of my good faith post, which, after all, had complimented Denisof's performance in this week's Dollhouse. I merely called your collective gaffe to your collective attention. That said, can we put this petty squabble behind us and move on now? In the event you are a compulsive last worder, I concede it to you.:)
Counter pointed with an additional 2 levels of counter arguments embedded. Well played sir. :D

I actually doubt that was the motivation... Whedon always goes back to previous actors that have worked with him before to mine for roles... so I'd wager 99.9% of the reason of hiring both those actor/actress had to do with their roles on Buffy (and in Denisof's case Angel as well).

One does not preclude the other. Of the actors he uses, perhaps they were the most fitted to those parts, on that basis.

Hmm, I just thought they were a typical politcal couple with no real-life party association. Sounds like you're bringing your own bias to the table.:rolleyes:

Doubtless I am bringing my own bias to the table, as does everyone. I suspect it is Whedon's bias as well, as there were a few clear parallels. But, I may be wrong. In any event, one may enjoy it, without sharing a bias... :D

Counter pointed with an additional 2 levels of counter arguments embedded. Well played sir. :D
Thanks. As noted in my earlier post, I have no intention of continuing the Denisof debate, fun though it was. Folks who play "Gotcha!" bring out the worst in me, which got me into a thicket, which I probably shouldn't have entered.

Buffy was my favorite series ever made and I noticed Alexis right off, even with no British accent. But I would not have claimed I was certain.
Tom -- that was my point. Although Denisof was born in Maryland, he lived in London for 13 years and, according to the IMDB, was appearing in a play in Liverpool as recently as 2006. Although he is not technically British, it's clear that he knows how to play one on TV. Come to think of it, he proved on this week's Dollhouse that he also knows how to play an American on TV. More seriously, Denisof is a very good actor.

Buffy was my favorite series ever made and I noticed Alexis right off, even with no British accent. But I would not have claimed I was certain.

- Tom

In general, I don't care for vampire movies or TV shows. I took the new CW vampire show off my DVR list after a few episodes. I wasn't inclined to watch Buffy when it first aired, either, and I hadn't particularly liked the movie. I don't remember why I tuned in, but I was hooked from the first episode.

I've never watched a show before or since that's affected me so dramatically. I read somewhere that Joss Whedon often would have his actors over to his house to read Shakespeare. I think Whedon and Shakespeare are similar souls. They could have been friends. I'm no Shakespearean scholar, but I did bump into him quite a lot on my way to a masters degree in English literature. Incredible as some would find it to believe, I've found myself melting into Joss Whedon's writing in a way similar to how I've felt reading Shakespeare. I think that's why meeting Denisof at the Globe was so striking for me - two of my favorite world's collided for a few minutes.

Joe, Joe, Joe! Man, I love ya! You KNOW I do! And I would NORMALLY NEVER do this to another poster. But when someone has JUST said they have a MASTER'S DEGREE in ANYTHING and then misuses an apostrophe the way you just did above, ACK, I just can't contain myself, lol.

I see SO MUCH "apostrophe abuse," and there's one poster on here who actually has something about it in his "sig" (but only about the difference between "its and "it's" and I usually let it go (I sometimes accidentally do it, myself -- it's ALWAYS a typo when I do it, because it's one of my pet peeves)... Just couldn't let it slide right after a statement about having a Master's in English Lit, lol.

As for this week's episode... FANTASTIC! But MAN, even though we ALL saw it coming, I could not stand seeing Madeline back under Dollhouse control -- much less being tortured by Bennett -- at the end of the show. If there's a truly sympathetic character on this show, it's her.

I really liked Summer's performance, too. I didn't see it as being as close to River as some of you do. Very quirky, however, and one got the impression she has MORE authority in her realm than does Topher in his, although maybe not if her bosses find out how Topher was able to make that end-run around her (even though it didn't work, in the long run). It would certainly be nice to find out exactly WHAT the history is between her and "Caroline" and if that was THE REAL Caroline, and before either of them were involved with the Dollhouse.

And if so, WHY did Caroline just leave her there to her fate? What was going on there? Lots of questions in that little scene. At any rate, the fact that Echo was able to overcome that programming and regain the use of her arm, and NOW has access to ALL her imprints might put her in danger. Then again, anyone who gets in her way is likely in much more danger, lol.
Jeff

I like how you point out that you spelled his name correctly, but didnt realize hes actually American :).

+1 :)

First, I don't think you can concede me the last word, you got to let me have it.:) Second, you do realize it was a quote right? Yes, I knew it was spelled wrong, but didn't think it was a big deal. Anyways ,it was all in fun and no offense was intended. Heck, I was prepared to eat crow if you had actually seen the pilot:) Really, Didn't mean to upset you. And since I have the last word, here it is: peace

So who DID play Willow in the original pilot? I don't think I've seen it, either, if it wasn't Allyson. I just LOVE Allyson, by the way. Soooo glad she's on "How I Met Your Mother." Her goofy style of humor never gets old to me, although I liked her more multi-dimensional character as Willow better.
Jeff

I've never watched a show before or since that's affected me so dramatically. I read somewhere that Joss Whedon often would have his actors over to his house to read Shakespeare. I think Whedon and Shakespeare are similar souls. They could have been friends. I'm no Shakespearean scholar, but I did bump into him quite a lot on my way to a masters degree in English literature. Incredible as some would find it to believe, I've found myself melting into Joss Whedon's writing in a way similar to how I've felt reading Shakespeare. I think that's why meeting Denisof at the Globe was so striking for me - two of my favorite world's collided for a few minutes.

Very well put. Pretty much the effect Buffy had on me too. What amazes me the most right now is that Dollhouse is getting close to doing the same.

So who DID play Willow in the original pilot? I don't think I've seen it, either, if it wasn't Allyson. I just LOVE Allyson, by the way. Soooo glad she's on "How I Met Your Mother." Her goofy style of humor never gets old to me, although I liked her more multi-dimensional character as Willow better.
Jeff

To be honest, I don't know.:) They did recasting after the pilot, which never aired. There was a real Buffy scholar who used to be on this forum who had seen it-apparently it shows up on Ebay occasionally at a very high price. Again, my mention of it was just a goof. Allyson was also on Veronica Mars in a recurring role, cast against type. It was kinda disconcerting seeing her as a total sleazeball..

Well she CERTAINLY has RANGE. The few times on "Buffy" Allyson was cast to play herself differently (the episode where Buffy never came to Sunnydale and Willow was one of Spike's chief vampires; the episode where she became SuperWitch and almost destroyed the planet while simultaneously becoming hideous looking, in grief and rage after Tara was killed, etc.) proved she is an EXCELLENT actress. I have no idea if she's won any awards, to date, but I have little doubt that given the proper role and opportunity she could.
Jeff

Jeez, Jeff. It was late when I made my apostrophe mistakes last night. I usually send my posts to a publisher for proofing, but I suppose now I'll just have to live with the shame. To make amends, I've at least corrected last night's error below.

In general, I dont care for vampire movie's or TV show's. I took the new CW vampire show off my DVR lis't after a few episode's. I wasn"t inclined to watch Buffy when it first aired, either, and I had'nt particularly liked the movie. I don,t remember why I tuned in, but I was hooked from the first episode.

I"ve never watched a show before or since thats affected me s'o dramatically. I read somewhere that Jos's Whedon often would have his actors' over to his hou'se to read Shake's peare. I think Whedon and S'hakespeare are similar s'ouls. They could have been 'friends'. I'm no S'hake'spearean s'cholar, but I did bump into him quite a lot on my way to a master"s degree in English literature. Incredible as s'ome would find it to believe, Iv'e found myself melting into Joss Whedons writing in a way similar to how I'v'e felt reading S'hakespeare. I think thats why meeting Denis'of at the Globe was so striking for me - two of my favorite worlds collided for a few minute's.

Are you happy now?

I've seen the first Buffy pilot (or at least parts of it), although I had forgotten about it and the other actress cast as Willow until it was mentioned above. Actually, I haven't watched Buffy at all for several years. I've done that deliberately. The plan is to let my memory have the time it needs to erase itself a bit, then one day watch the series again with new eyes. I've seen each episode several times, so I still plan on waiting maybe 3 or 4 more years. My doctor tells me the senility shouldn't have kicked in completely, so I still should be able to enjoy it.

just wanna throw out that i thought the guy that plays victor has done a great job. the range hes shown and being able to out topher topher was pretty interesting to see.

and very humorous...

just wanna throw out that i thought the guy that plays victor has done a great job. the range hes shown and being able to out topher topher was pretty interesting to see.

That was one of the highlights of the episode, wasn't it? That performance demonstrated just how gifted he is. Remarkable, and VERY funny.

I'd be interested in how Brits feel about Americans doing English accents.

Anthony Quale said (on Cavett, I think) that the only really convincing American British accent he could remember was Brando's in Mutiny on the Bounty.

There are any number of Brits/Australians doing standard American accents very well, IMO, but you seldom hear them doing other American accents, such as east coast or northern.

But they do better Southern accents than anybody except Southerners.

I've never watched a show before or since that's affected me so dramatically. I read somewhere that Joss Whedon often would have his actors over to his house to read Shakespeare. I think Whedon and Shakespeare are similar souls. They could have been friends. I'm no Shakespearean scholar, but I did bump into him quite a lot on my way to a masters degree in English literature. Incredible as some would find it to believe, I've found myself melting into Joss Whedon's writing in a way similar to how I've felt reading Shakespeare. I think that's why meeting Denisof at the Globe was so striking for me - two of my favorite world's collided for a few minutes.
Joe -- I agree that there was something magical about the Buffyverse. I have never been able to figure out what it was, other than that other vampire tales have appealed to me, too, such as Anne Rice's early books and the wonderful Charlaine Harris Sookie Stackhouse books, upon which the equally wonderful HBO series, True Blood, is based. Vampire tales miss more often than they hit, it seems to me, but when they do work, they are a lot of fun.

Thinking about the wonderful Buffy series reminds me of the reason I am so glad that the suits at Fox have finally allowed Whedon to be Whedon. Dollhouse has hit its stride at last and I look forward to more.

By the way, I see that you have joined me in having been victimized by a "Gotcha!" post, or in my case a series of them. Welcome to the club.:) More seriously, the climate around here could be a lot more collegial if posters could avoid such posts. Never mind, it won't happen.

Joe -- I agree that there was something magical about the Buffyverse. I have never been able to figure out what it was, other than that other vampire tales have appealed to me, too, such as Anne Rice's early books and the wonderful Charlaine Harris Sookie Stackhouse books, upon which the equally wonderful HBO series, True Blood, is based. Vampire tales miss more often than they hit, it seems to me, but when they do work, they are a lot of fun.

Thinking about the wonderful Buffy series reminds me of the reason I am so glad that the suits at Fox have finally allowed Whedon to be Whedon. Dollhouse has hit its stride at last and I look forward to more.

By the way, I see that you have joined me in having been victimized by a "Gotcha!" post, or in my case a series of them. Welcome to the club.:) More seriously, the climate around here could be a lot more collegial if posters could avoid such posts. Never mind, it won't happen.

I doubt Jeff was being malicious in his post, but since I mentioned the degree, he pounced on it. Since I'll never, ever make a mistake like that again, he won't have another opportunity to criticize. :D

Things are pretty friendly on AVS, although I've made a few nasty comments myself in the past - and immediately regretted it. The most important thing is for our exchanges to be friendly and fun. I think we do that for the most part.

I agree Dollhouse is getting consistently better as the season progresses. The show feels far more organic. The characters are more believable and relateable, and the story flows smoothly. It's Joss Whedon's creative hand, I'm convinced, that's responsible. I find it really hard to believe the ham fist that guided the first season was his. Of course, I could be wrong. The pedestal I've built for him is pretty tall. Creative guidance aside, I didn't see much evidence of his writing for most of season one.

I'd be interested in how Brits feel about Americans doing English accents.

Anthony Quale said (on Cavett, I think) that the only really convincing American British accent he could remember was Brando's in Mutiny on the Bounty.

There are any number of Brits/Australians doing standard American accents very well, IMO, but you seldom hear them doing other American accents, such as east coast or northern.

But they do better Southern accents than anybody except Southerners.

That's going back a ways to find an effective English accent by an American. I thought Gwyneth Paltrow was quite good in Shakespeare in Love. Heck, I even liked Chuck's faux English accent in the 3D episode. Gary Oldman's accents have been convincing, although I thought his southern accent was kinda over the top in The Fifth Element. I'm curious - which British actors do you think do southern American well? None come to me off the top of my head.

I'd be interested in how Brits feel about Americans doing English accents.

Anthony Quale said (on Cavett, I think) that the only really convincing American British accent he could remember was Brando's in Mutiny on the Bounty.

There are any number of Brits/Australians doing standard American accents very well, IMO, but you seldom hear them doing other American accents, such as east coast or northern.

But they do better Southern accents than anybody except Southerners.

I think there are some actors and actresses that when they're forced to adopt a certain accent, it affects their acting negatively. Almost like they're having to put too much concentration into maintaining the accent, enough so that there's not enough left to act.

Michelle Ryan, of the (pretty terrible) Bionic Woman remake a couple years ago is a prime example of this. Her acting through the limited run of the show was pretty bad. However, in the one episode where she actually got to use her native British accent, she was infinitely better.

That's going back a ways to find an effective English accent by an American. I thought Gwyneth Paltrow was quite good in Shakespeare in Love. Heck, I even liked Chuck's faux English accent in the 3D episode. Gary Oldman's accents have been convincing, although I thought his southern accent was kinda over the top in The Fifth Element. I'm curious - which British actors do you think do southern American well? None come to me off the top of my head.

Leo DiCaprio's accent - even though it's South African - in Blood Diamond, was very good. That's hard to pull off, too, since unless you've specifically spent time around actual South Africans, people tend to lump it in with the overall generic British accent.

As to English actors playing with Southern accents? I thought Albert Finney's accent in Big Fish was outstanding. Ewan McGregor's? Not so much.

[I]But they do better Southern accents than anybody except Southerners.That's because the southern accent is the closest to pure British. I saw a show on Discovery or History or one of those that said the closest American accent to British is spoken by the residents of some islands off the deep southeast. I think it was either South Carolina or Virginia.

I doubt Jeff was being malicious in his post, but since I mentioned the degree, he pounced on it. Since I'll never, ever make a mistake like that again, he won't have another opportunity to criticize. :D

Things are pretty friendly on AVS, although I've made a few nasty comments myself in the past - and immediately regretted it. The most important thing is for our exchanges to be friendly and fun. I think we do that for the most part.

I agree Dollhouse is getting consistently better as the season progresses. The show feels far more organic. The characters are more believable and relateable, and the story flows smoothly. It's Joss Whedon's creative hand, I'm convinced, that's responsible. I find it really hard to believe the ham fist that guided the first season was his. Of course, I could be wrong. The pedestal I've built for him is pretty tall. Creative guidance aside, I didn't see much evidence of his writing for most of season one.
I agree that there was nothing really malicious in either your exchange or mine. As a matter of fact, posters are uniformly polite here and rarely get out of hand. I am a survivor of Usenet, so I appreciate more than most the generally high level of both courtesy and expertise we see here. Trollery is frequent on Usenet but refreshingly rare here.

We see the source of Dollhouse's improvement identically: the fine hand of Joss Whedon. I recognize that Whedon's stuff isn't for all tastes but I think that both Buffy and Firefly were out of this world. Thus, I may be viewing Dollhouse's improvement through rose colored glasses. Nevertheless, I have great hope that its recent excellence will be sustained.

On another issue, I think the convincing American accents British actors uniformly pull off are primarily that British actors are classically trained and learn how to speak as the characters they are portraying would speak. I also agree with another poster's observation that the reason British actors handle southern accents so effectively is that British and southern accents are closely related.

That's because the southern accent is the closest to pure British. I saw a show on Discovery or History or one of those that said the closest American accent to British is spoken by the residents of some islands off the deep southeast. I think it was either South Carolina or Virginia.


Which is strange because when you ask some people from the UK specifically England how we Americans sound to them they start off with a southern/country accent. Just speaking from personal experiences with my ex GF who was originally from Suffolk, East Anglia. You do start to listen more carefully and change your pronounciation of the vowels if you live in the UK long enough! Anyone care to eat at a Little Chef with me? The Brits will know what I'm talking about!;)

just wanna throw out that i thought the guy that plays victor has done a great job. the range hes shown and being able to out topher topher was pretty interesting to see.

That was one of the highlights of the episode, wasn't it? That performance demonstrated just how gifted he is. Remarkable, and VERY funny.

Both episodes were *excellent* and it is unfortunate that the series couldn't have started out of the gate like this and kept it going.

I do have an observation though. I couldn't tell if 'Victor' was mimicking Topher's voice as an actor, or lip-syncing to the overdubbed actual voice of Topher. If you re-watch that scene with your eyes closed, it seems like Topher did the voices for both parts. Or Victor is just a *really* good mimic.

uh, no. it was not lip syching.

Joe, Joe, Joe! Man, I love ya! You KNOW I do! And I would NORMALLY NEVER do this to another poster. But when someone has JUST said they have a MASTER'S DEGREE in ANYTHING and then misuses an apostrophe the way you just did above, ACK, I just can't contain myself, lol.

Jeff, I wanted to assure you that my use of the word "world's" was indeed a typo, and that I do know the differences between plurals, possessives and contractions. (I paid $200 for that masters degree online and I'm darn proud of it.) To illustrate, I'm going to use the word "worlds" in three sentences:

"Worlds" - plural:

One would have to visit many worlds to find a tool bigger than Jeff Hayes.

"World's" - possessive:

Jeff Hayes is this world's biggest tool.

"World's" - contraction:

The world's a playground for its biggest tool, Jeff Hayes.

Whew! It's amazing how much better it made me feel to clear that up. :D

(Just kidding, buddy. You know I love ya.)

I doubt Jeff was being malicious in his post, but since I mentioned the degree, he pounced on it. Since I'll never, ever make a mistake like that again, he won't have another opportunity to criticize. :D

Things are pretty friendly on AVS, although I've made a few nasty comments myself in the past - and immediately regretted it. The most important thing is for our exchanges to be friendly and fun. I think we do that for the most part.

I agree Dollhouse is getting consistently better as the season progresses. The show feels far more organic. The characters are more believable and relateable, and the story flows smoothly. It's Joss Whedon's creative hand, I'm convinced, that's responsible. I find it really hard to believe the ham fist that guided the first season was his. Of course, I could be wrong. The pedestal I've built for him is pretty tall. Creative guidance aside, I didn't see much evidence of his writing for most of season one.

There was NO malicious intent AT ALL, in fact, Joe. That's why I started the post by stating how much I like you. You KNOW I consider you one of my best "forum pals." I don't just say that, I mean it.

The ONLY REASON I used YOUR post as an opportunity to point out the "apostrophe abuse" example was BECAUSE I felt you and I have a strong enough online relationship that you wouldn't take it as personally as most others might, and ALSO since you had just stated your degree, it DID allow the opportunity to point out that even someone with an advanced degree in English CAN and DOES make those mistakes, on occasion (and I'm sure it WAS just a typo -- I'm SURE you know better).

I APOLOGIZE for using you to make a point. It wasn't fair. I'm going to state right now that I do it, too. NEVER intentionally. I know ALL my apostrophe rules. But I see so much of it done wrong (there's a sign at the pharmacy register at my local Wal-Mart, where I get all my prescriptions, that says "Non-prescription items limited to 8 item's or less." It's been there FOREVER and never changed or fixed, and I grate my teeth every time I'm standing in line, looking at it, lol. I pass by house after house with signs out front that say, "The Smith's" or "The Johnson's" and I just want to take a baseball bat and hit them over the centerfield wall!

It seems SO MANY FOLKS DON'T know the rules that when I see someone who I'm sure DOES make the mistake, well, I guess I took the opportunity to make a posting, hoping others would read it and maybe some of them would pick up something.

I didn't mean it to come off as a flame, but I guess it did, and again I apologize for that. As I often type out posts quickly and post them without checking them, sometimes I don't catch typos until later, when I see mine quoted, so I know I'm not immune. In fact, I ALMOST posted that with the all-important word spelled TWICE as "apostophre" before I figured SOMETHING didn't look right and caught it, lol.

Still friends?
Jeff

just wanna throw out that i thought the guy that plays victor has done a great job. the range hes shown and being able to out topher topher was pretty interesting to see.

Enver Gjokaj has pretty much been putting on an acting class in this series. Perfect casting choice for a character who has to assume so many different personalities.

What a find he is...

Thanks for spelling his name for us, Robert. I knew it was something sort of Eastern-European exotic, but couldn't think of it and was SURE I couldn't spell it without going to the show's site to look it up.

I agree, he's FANTASTIC! I don't know if he's the best actor in the show, but he's certainly right up there and I'm not saying he isn't. I'm just saying I'm not sure I'm qualified to judge, at this point -- if ever, lol.
Jeff

Still friends?

Jeff

Do you even have to ask? I guess you didn't see my last post (and I hope you won't have any trouble figuring out that I'm joking). :D

I've taken absolutely no offense, nor meant any. It's all in fun.

Do you even have to ask? I guess you didn't see my last post (and I hope you won't have any trouble figuring out that I'm joking). :D

I've taken absolutely no offense, nor meant any. It's all in fun.

Uhhhhhhhhhh, NOPE, I think you and I were typing at the same time (and I was SERIOUSLY concerned I'd screwed up yet another friendship by crossing a line -- what I get for posting late at night, lol).

The world's biggest (hunka LOVE) tool! :D
Jeff

Originally Posted by JeffAHayes
Still friends?

Jeff
Do you even have to ask? I guess you didn't see my last post (and I hope you won't have any trouble figuring out that I'm joking). :D

I've taken absolutely no offense, nor meant any. It's all in fun.
Uhhhhhhhhhh, NOPE, I think you and I were typing at the same time (and I was SERIOUSLY concerned I'd screwed up yet another friendship by crossing a line -- what I get for posting late at night, lol).

The world's biggest (hunka LOVE) tool! :D
Jeff
Joe and jeff -- You guys are REALLY funny when you put your minds to it, maybe the WORLD'S funniest.:) This has turned out to be an extraordinarily entertaining thread.

Joe and jeff -- You guys are REALLY funny when you put your minds to it, maybe the WORLD'S funniest.:) This has turned out to be an extraordinarily entertaining thread.

Thanks, gwsat!

I often say that if the ONLY sense I have is my sense of humor, at least I'll still be happy! :)

I can't stand grumpasauruses (those reading my repeated posts about the problems with some shows, like "Fast Forward," might mistake ME for one, though, lol), and although I DO have a temper, which comes out on occasion, I'm generally slow to anger and quick to forgive.
Jeff

I often say that if the ONLY sense I have is my sense of humor, at least I'll still be happy! :)



Yeah, but then if something bums you out, you'll be senseless... :D :eek:

Yeah, but then if something bums you out, you'll be senseless... :D :eek:

Yeah, THAT and centsless, too -- I'm probably both already, anyway, and just not awake enough to realize it, lol.

Hey, I finally got a chance to view the unaired pilot, and then, since it'd been so long, I re-watched the original aired pilot for comparison. While the one that actually aired was a good show, I think the suits at Fox Programming are INSANE. The pilot they CUT showed SO MUCH of where Joss wanted to take that show in just ONE episode -- stuff that didn't come out until half-way through the season after they made the changes -- I think showing that much up front might have engendered more interest, BUT it also didn't have any "complete active engagement" sequences, and Fox apparently wanted it ALL to be "episodic" TV... couldn't even stand for the PILOT to introduce the freakin' concept. PLUS, the pilot was DEFINITELY not as "sexy" as the one they ended up with -- no dancing in frilly dresses, or "professional negotiator" walking around dressed up like a hot librarian... I was somewhat surprised how DARK the original pilot portrayed Topher, however, but I really LIKED the idea that it had Dr. Saunders having actives do some "pro-bono" work, which is something that's never been done on the show since.

I really feel that original pilot -- especially the way it ended -- would have set such a different tone for the entire series that we'd be well on the way to Season 3 at this point.

FREAKIN' IDIOT PROGRAMMING EXECUTIVES!!!
Jeff

Yeah, THAT and centsless, too -- I'm probably both already, anyway, and just not awake enough to realize it, lol.

Hey, I finally got a chance to view the unaired pilot, and then, since it'd been so long, I re-watched the original aired pilot for comparison. While the one that actually aired was a good show, I think the suits at Fox Programming are INSANE. The pilot they CUT showed SO MUCH of where Joss wanted to take that show in just ONE episode -- stuff that didn't come out until half-way through the season after they made the changes -- I think showing that much up front might have engendered more interest, BUT it also didn't have any "complete active engagement" sequences, and Fox apparently wanted it ALL to be "episodic" TV... couldn't even stand for the PILOT to introduce the freakin' concept. PLUS, the pilot was DEFINITELY not as "sexy" as the one they ended up with -- no dancing in frilly dresses, or "professional negotiator" walking around dressed up like a hot librarian... I was somewhat surprised how DARK the original pilot portrayed Topher, however, but I really LIKED the idea that it had Dr. Saunders having actives do some "pro-bono" work, which is something that's never been done on the show since.

I really feel that original pilot -- especially the way it ended -- would have set such a different tone for the entire series that we'd be well on the way to Season 3 at this point.

FREAKIN' IDIOT PROGRAMMING EXECUTIVES!!!
Jeff
It is nearly a miracle that Dollhouse has finally started to live up to its promise, given the meddling of Fox's executives. I still can't understand how those silly stand alone pieces early in the first season, in which Dushku played the hooker of the week, didn't sink the show. H.L. Mencken once said something to the effect that no politician ever lost his job by underestimating the intelligence of the voters. I guess the same is true of network suits.

It is nearly a miracle that Dollhouse has finally started to live up to its promise, given the meddling of Fox's executives. I still can't understand how those silly stand alone pieces early in the first season, in which Dushku played the hooker of the week, didn't sink the show. H.L. Mencken once said something to the effect that no politician ever lost his job by underestimating the intelligence of the voters. I guess the same is true of network suits.

They pulled the same crap with Firefly's pilot episode. Airing 'Train Job' as the pilot, instead of the actual one.

I missed the whole thread because I didn't get to watch the episodes until last night, and now you guys have said everything there is to say.

I have nothing to add except (1) here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/12/dollhouse-fox-joss-whedon.html) is a link to a recent article and interview with JW which (depending on when it was actually conducted) seems to indicate that the final episode is still in production, which at least augurs well for some sort of closure, and (2) thanks for the shout-out to my sig. :D I suppose it's time to move on to the use of the apostrophe in plurals; I didn't want to take things too far, too fast.

They pulled the same crap with Firefly's pilot episode. Airing 'Train Job' as the pilot, instead of the actual one.
That's right and we see how Firefly faired. What a memorable show it was. To see it cancelled after just one season was a sickening waste.

I finally had time to watch these recent two episodes, and all I can say is awesome, maybe the best episodes yet, and I'l looking forward to seeing what happens in the remaining few shows. I know I'm the extreme minority, but I think that Dollhouse is one of the most compelling shows currently on TV, and it's too bad Fox had to cancel it because of low ratings. I guess that most people would rather watch mindless drivel like American Karaoke and Celebrity Clog Dancing instead of having to actually think.

I bought season 1 on Blu-ray and will buy season 2 when available, so at least I can get my Dollhouse fix that way. It's nice seeing the show in 1080/24p video with dts-HD Master Audio.

That's right and we see how Firefly faired. What a memorable show it was. To see it cancelled after just one season was a sickening waste.

But then, to see it resurrected as a feature film was a major treat.

Personally, while I grew to love Firefly later, I never really connected to it when it was airing. This had less to do with the episode order than with the fact that it was so frequently pre-empted or rescheduled. I would turn it on and it not really understand what was going on, who anybody was, or anything about the premise. I was not a Whedon fan at the time (had never seen Buffy), knew few of the actors, and really had no compelling reason to stick it out. So I didn't.

It was only after watching the series on DVD that I joined the "Whedon as auteur" club, caught up on Buffy and Angel, and looked forward to Dollhouse eagerly.

My own experience tells me that Whedon series may not always be as instantly accessible as fans think they are -- and the relative failure of Serenity at the box office demonstrates that there are not as many of us out here as we might like to believe, either.

What I'm saying is that "blame it on the suits" may be a bit simplistic. The works themselves may be to blame for their failure as mainstream commercial TV series. Not that they're bad -- obviously, they're not -- but that they are not the right sort of grist for the mill.

We spend a lot of time discussing how Dollhouse might have been better, but I think we miss the fact that "better" is a relative term. Better as art, as genre fiction, as storytelling, sure. But better as a successful network TV series? I think failure on that level was built into the show's DNA. Shows that require a high level of commitment from an educated audience rarely succeed.

JW needs to be doing more feature films. He needs to have some mainstream success so he can get backing for large-scale projects. Or he needs to go more viral, do more stuff like Dr. Horrible.

These last episodes of Dollhouse will be rewarding for the fans, and (I hope) satisfying. But I think it's a mistake to say "if the whole series were this good the show would have succeeded." Because seen from outside, the whole series was that good, or that bad. The audience was never there to start with. Nothing changed that would cause a mass adoption of the show by people who prefer Medium or Ugly Betty or whatever.

I look forward to Whedon's future work, but I hope it comes without all this pressure and sense of inevitable failure.

thanks for the shout-out to my sig. :D I suppose it's time to move on to the use of the apostrophe in plurals; I didn't want to take things too far, too fast.

Yeah, RD, however I sort of AMBUSHED one of BEST FORUM FRIEND'S (sic) in the process, lol. Of course then I went to GREAT LENGTH'S (sic) to explain why and apologize, lol.

But, like you, I just drive's (sic) me crazy why seemingly almost everyone continue's (sic) to use an apostrophe every single time they have any reason to add an "s" to the end of a word!

I'd rather see apostrophe's (sic) BANISHED from the English language than misused as much as I continue to see them misused as much and as often as they continue to be -- even often by folk's (sic) who appear to be highly educated!

As for your later comment's (sic) in the thread a few space's (sic) down about whether or not JW's show's (sic) will or won't succeed, regardless, I think the fact that both Buffy AND Angel made it multiple season's (sic) may prove you wrong. Then again, they BOTH were on second-tier network's (sic) that will go forward with lower rating's (sic), and might NOT have made it on Fox, or the other Big 4 network's (sic). Still, I think it's possible if that initial pilot HAD run, thing's (sic) might have been VERY different.
Jeff

I just finished watching the last two episodes. I will say the show has gotten much better the last 4-6 episodes, but I feel like I'm watching two shows. One is really good, interesting, and centered around the people running the Dollhouse. The other is focusing on Echo/Caroline and is just terrible. Maybe part of it is I really don't like ED and don't think she is a great actress, I also don't like the character. The scenes with her in the first episode last week were really stupid. Especially when she starts flashing between personalities while beating up the Senator's wife. Another week where her programing is messed up, I never saw that coming. I mean how many times have the writers used that plot point.

I will say the 2nd episode was pretty good. This was actually the first time the show made me interested at all in Caroline's back story. It was good to see Summer in the show, and I hope we see more of Bennett in the future. I think the show is much stronger when it focuses on the real people and the dolls are just sort of there to support the story.

Jeff, you're sic!

Jeff, you're sic!

LMAO Clark!

Just thought I'd make a regular post and see just HOW MANY TIMES I could fine and opportunity to "abuse an apostrophe" (but of course, to make the point that it was DELIBERATE apostrophe abuse, and so NOBODY missed it, I HAD to put the little (sic) after it every single time -- by the way, I'd been seeing that done for many years before I finally looked it up and read the definition: (sic) -- "'that is to say' -- usually used when someone deliberately misspells a word or uses improper grammar or punctuation for effect."

I've read FICTION where the (sic) was used AD NAUSEAM. I can't FATHOM how anyone could think fiction could be enjoyable to read with all those (sic)s in it. It was hard to even put them all in my post (and probably equally hard to read them all, lol).
Jeff

To be honest, I don't know.:) They did recasting after the pilot, which never aired. There was a real Buffy scholar who used to be on this forum who had seen it-apparently it shows up on Ebay occasionally at a very high price. Again, my mention of it was just a goof. Allyson was also on Veronica Mars in a recurring role, cast against type. It was kinda disconcerting seeing her as a total sleazeball..

I've seen the Pilot. Some of the scenes from it actually do show up in the first season premiere. It isn't all that great. The girl who played Willow is on the large side, and she really had no personality at all. Allision is a much better choice

Leo DiCaprio's accent - even though it's South African - in Blood Diamond, was very good. That's hard to pull off, too, since unless you've specifically spent time around actual South Africans, people tend to lump it in with the overall generic British accent.



Leo's Boston accent in The Departed is also very good. Being from Boston, it is seldom that I hear an actor use one and get it right. Matt and Ben obviously can do it, but Leo surprised me. I could actually see him being from Southie.

On the flip side, Martin Sheen's accent is atrocious. It was like he was trying to do a bad JFK impersonation. And one thing Bostonians know is Kennedy's don't actually have a Boston accent, they have one all their own

On the flip side, Martin Sheen's accent is atrocious. It was like he was trying to do a bad JFK impersonation. And one thing Bostonians know is Kennedy's don't actually have a Boston accent, they have one all their own

Funny you should say that about Martin Sheen, because the very first role I EVER remember seeing him in was playing JFK in a TV version of "The Missiles of October," lol. Both my dad (a history buff and very much involved in politics at the time Kennedy was president) and I thought he played an EXCELLENT JFK, lol.

So maybe he thinks that's how EVERYONE from Massachussetts sounds, lol.
Jeff

Funny you should say that about Martin Sheen, because the very first role I EVER remember seeing him in was playing JFK in a TV version of "The Missiles of October," lol. Both my dad (a history buff and very much involved in politics at the time Kennedy was president) and I thought he played an EXCELLENT JFK, lol.

So maybe he thinks that's how EVERYONE from Massachussetts sounds, lol.
Jeff

He probably does, however the accent coach on the film should have pulled him aside and told him he sounded like he has never even actually heard a Boston accent. We drop our R's and G's, but not always, we also don't have a twang which Sheen did for some unknown reason. Not only that, we sometimes add R's where they don't belong. So Car become Ca, Going becomes Goin, but Idea often times becomes Ideer.


Back to Dollhouse, I liked tonights Ep. Alpha breaking in was a bit too predictable, but that's OK. Next week's trailer looks real interesting.

He probably does, however the accent coach on the film should have pulled him aside and told him he sounded like he has never even actually heard a Boston accent. We drop our R's and G's, but not always, we also don't have a twang which Sheen did for some unknown reason. Not only that, we sometimes add R's where they don't belong. So Car become Ca, Going becomes Goin, but Idea often times becomes Ideer.


Back to Dollhouse, I liked tonights Ep. Alpha breaking in was a bit too predictable, but that's OK. Next week's trailer looks real interesting.

I liked tonight's ep too, too bad it took so long to get into high gear, but hopefully we'll have a bang up set of finales. The show just meandered too long, we're actually very fortunate that we even got see the good stuff. I wouldn't have blamed FOX if they hadn't brought it back at all(even if they were the ones that wrecked the show)

Oh Fox DEFINITELY wrecked it. The original pilot took SO MUCH of a different direction than the one that aired this show would have been UNRECOGNIZEABLE last fall. Anyone who buys or downloads the First Season, I'd recommend you watch the original, unaired pilot first, then immediately watch the first REAL episode for contrast.

The unaired pilot showed things the audience didn't get to see in the aired series until halfway through the season, PLUS it had a major plot twist that has NEVER come to pass in the actual series.

What we're seeing now, and only now, in the middle of Season 2, is close to the "vision" I saw in that pilot... and speaking of which, did Adele turn into a biatch on wheels OR WHAT when she saw her chance to get control of the Dollhouse back, and then ESPECIALLY after she DID get it back?!? I think if I were Topher, I'd be putting something in her liquor bottle when she wasn't looking, and she'd wake up in an easy chair asking, "Did I fall asleep?" :eek:
Jeff

I think if I were Topher, I'd be putting something in her liquor bottle when she wasn't looking, and she'd wake up in an easy chair asking, "Did I fall asleep?" :eek:
Jeff

The sudden changes in personality do make one wonder if she may have been programmed all along ... no?

Yes they do, HDTV. In fact, I've considered the possibility that ALL the primary Dollhouse personel (Adele, Topher and his assistant -- possibly some others), have been programmed, but I don't think that's "in the cards," so to speak -- at least not yet... It doesn't leave JW anywhere to GO with the characters if they're ALREADY dolls... Much more fun if there's the threat/possibility they may BECOME dolls.

But considering that Adele stole Topher's plans for a device that would make it possible to program anyone, anywhere, anytime, WITHOUT their knowledge or consent and freely gave them to the entire ROSSUM Corp. just to regain control of her OWN "little dollhouse" (only one of 22, soon to be 33), well, that shows her to be not only evil, but literally insane and showing major "depraved indifference" towards the well being of every other human being on the planet (for those of you who don't watch crime dramas, "depraved indifference" is what's required to prove manslaughter when someone dies as a direct or indirect result of your action(s) or failure to act). In Adele's case, she could end up being responsible for global genocide in a worst-case scenario, with that weapon mass produced, in the wrong hands and taken to its worst possible ends (which is the sort of scenario Topher was implying when he said what a terrible weapon it would be and why he didn't even like the fact that he ever even imagined it).

Yeah, I think Adele needs to be imprinted... to attempt to be the first long-distance swimmer to swim non-stop from Los Angeles to Hawaii!
Jeff

Yes they do, HDTV. In fact, I've considered the possibility that ALL the primary Dollhouse personel (Adele, Topher and his assistant -- possibly some others), have been programmed, but I don't think that's "in the cards," so to speak -- at least not yet... It doesn't leave JW anywhere to GO with the characters if they're ALREADY dolls... Much more fun if there's the threat/possibility they may BECOME dolls.

Half and half? I'm thinking Adele got the senator's treatment after the debacle(s) in DC.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps, HDTV, although I was under the impression that you had to have already been "programmed" to receive imprinting to receive that sort of thing. But then you're saying you think she's already a doll, anyway.

That is possible. I think JW LOVES to put in all sorts of twists and it's looked all along like he wanted to take "Dollhouse" in the direction of a much larger conspiracy than what appears on the surface... sort of like a pimple that you try to squeeze and the next think you know it's burst open and revealed a metastisized cancer beneath, spreading throughout the body.

Don't know if I mentioned that I've also seen "Epitath," too, now, but I DON'T want to put any spoilers of that in here, except to say that I can very well understand some of the comments made by others who've seen it about how they could better see where Joss was heading with this show.

If you haven't seen Epitath, I'd recommend you wait until this season is over and see what he does with the rest of the season, then watch it. I think it can wait. It's set 10 years in the future, anyway.
Jeff

There's also a door open in that we didn't actually see her take the plans... so we don't know if the plans she gave up to Rossum (sp?) are the same ones Topher designed.

So she could be truly evil/self-absorbed and didn't care, she could be playing an angle, or she could be both in a way.

Kind of like how they made it appear Topher was on a power trip for about the first 3rd of the first episode tonight... then they went back to Topher being Topher and only faking obedience.

Purchased the BD set at Amazon.com and I'm looking forward to all the episodes. It's sad that this show is being cancelled. Then again I'll just move on. The original pilot episode is the ep I'm most looking forward to.

We drop our R's and G's, but not always, we also don't have a twang which Sheen did for some unknown reason. Not only that, we sometimes add R's where they don't belong. So Car become Ca, Going becomes Goin, but Idea often times becomes Ideer.

Back to Dollhouse, I liked tonights Ep. Alpha breaking in was a bit too predictable, but that's OK. Next week's trailer looks real interesting.
To continue the discussion of accents that are convincing, or not, I am reminded of a story an old friend used to tell. When he was in the Army at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, during the Korean War, a friend of his was from Boston but was married to an Oklahoma girl. It seems that on one occasion the wife thought her husband was asking where his [B]car keys were but, after a lot of confusion, it became clear that he was really asking where his khakis were.:)

I haven't yet had time to watch this week's 2 hour Dollhouse episode but I look forward to seeing it later today.

Oh Fox DEFINITELY wrecked it. The original pilot took SO MUCH of a different direction than the one that aired this show would have been UNRECOGNIZEABLE last fall. Anyone who buys or downloads the First Season, I'd recommend you watch the original, unaired pilot first, then immediately watch the first REAL episode for contrast.

The unaired pilot showed things the audience didn't get to see in the aired series until halfway through the season, PLUS it had a major plot twist that has NEVER come to pass in the actual series.

What we're seeing now, and only now, in the middle of Season 2, is close to the "vision" I saw in that pilot... :eek:
Jeff

Agree wholeheartedly, Jeff. I can't help thinking the whole series has been a setup for where we are now and if Whedon had been left alone we would have been to this point by halfway through the first season. The way Echo took command, becoming the only way to save the DH from Alpha, stuck me as the orgin of a superhero, much like River's transformation at the end of Serenity. It also fits with how her character was portrayed in Epitaph 1. Speaking of which, the last episode of the season is called Epitaph 2...
I,m loving this show now.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps, HDTV, although I was under the impression that you had to have already been "programmed" to receive imprinting to receive that sort of thing.

SPOILER for UNAIRED EPISODE "EPITAPH"
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...which looked ahead to an apocalyptic world where this technology had gotten loose, and the few remaining "actuals" (unimprinted humans) were being hunted by imprinted, well, zombies.

In the interview I linked to above, JW inferred that we hadn't seen the last of the world of Epitaph (which is available in the disc set as well as, um, elsewhere). Topher's invention, now in the hands of Rossum, is clearly the first step down the path to that world.

...Fox DEFINITELY wrecked it...I don't really know all that was going on behind the scenes, but I have a feeling that just the network isn't to blame.

But considering that Adele stole Topher's plans for a device that would make it possible to program anyone, anywhere, anytime, WITHOUT their knowledge or consent and freely gave them to the entire ROSSUM Corp. just to regain control of her OWN "little dollhouse" (only one of 22, soon to be 33), well, that shows her to be not only evil, but literally insane and showing major "depraved indifference" towards the well being of every other human being on the planet (for those of you who don't watch crime dramas, "depraved indifference" is what's required to prove manslaughter when someone dies as a direct or indirect result of your action(s) or failure to act).


You might be right. Or, it could be that Adele knew that ROSSUM was surveilling them, and would get the plans, no matter what. She could just have played up to them in order to preserve her position, so she could thwart them later. She didn't seem to be any too happy about their plans at the outset.

You might be right. Or, it could be that Adele knew that ROSSUM was surveilling them, and would get the plans, no matter what. She could just have played up to them in order to preserve her position, so she could thwart them later. She didn't seem to be any too happy about their plans at the outset.

Who knows where this is going???

I'm REALLY HAPPY to learn that the series finale has been titled Epitath 2, as the first Epitath really ended sort of open-ended, with as many questions as answers (and I figured JW did it that way on purpose, just so he COULD do a sequel to it when and if the opporunity presented itself).

There's still no way of knowing if General Joe Average would have responded any better to the show had it followed its original pilot and the direction THAT would have taken the show, vs. the direction it took, instead. I think it would have done better, but who knows?

At any rate, based on the comments Joss made in his interview about drinking himself into oblivion for the next few weeks (or something to that effect), I have to wonder if Fox has exclusive rights to Dollhouse. If not, I'm wondering what it might take to convince Joss to try to sell the show to the CW or SyFy or another network. I see no reason this show couldn't continue (except if he gives it a REALLY FATAL BLOW in the season finale, which may be the case if he does Epitath 2). I'm wondering if he uses Epitath 2 in the season finale, if he might use the previously unaired Epitath 1 as the next-to-last episode, for context?

Oh, speaking to the accents issue, TOTALLY off-topic, but I saw Ryan Kwanten who plays Jason Stackhouse on "True Blood" on David Letterman (I NEVER watch that sort of show, but got involved doing stuff like this after one of my CBS shows ended and was busy straight through the local news until Letterman came on) a while back, and the dude's AUSTRALIAN -- strong Aussie accent and all. I would have NEVER guessed. I'm native to South Carolina (not much of an accent, with an educated, native mom and a dad from Pennsylvania), but I VERY WELL know Southern accents and his has been TOTALLY believable to me!
Jeff

I don't really know all that was going on behind the scenes, but I have a feeling that just the network isn't to blame.

I'm sure you're right, although I'm not sure which you mean: the failure in the ratings, or the low quality of the show to begin with? Either way, I don't blame Fox, at least not completely.

Everything, really.

The show wasn't as "good" in the beginning because it focused too much on ED. They should have known enough to change the show's format away from that once and for all, once they realized that the "ensemble-style" thing was working and that wasn't.

Yet they continued to do it all the way to the end.

FOX's shows generally aren't like that - as far as the "playing up the sexuality thing" with ED that was going on. They're mainly "ensemble dramas" that don't really lean in that sort of direction. I doubt if that particular aspect was all FOX's decision.

Plus, they had to have seen that ED just can't hold up a show being the main focus like that, just based on her mediocre acting abilities. That had to have become clear to them early on. I know that network execs generally are boneheads, but they aren't that blind. 75% of the people here couldn't help but notice that and admitted it.

VALID POINTS, Rammi!

What you just said about most of Fox's shows being sort of all-ensemble, all-the-time made me do a little thinking... In the past few years I've also become a fan of "House" and "Bones" (late to both of them) and was with "Fringe" from the start, and even though "House" actually has its star's NAME in as the title, it's primarily an ensemble show except when there's a REASON to focus mostly on Greg... in fact in SOME episodes, he's largely absent. "Bones" has two stars with largely equal billing (I mean, when you see the promos and opening credits, it looks like they're trying to promote some kind of love connection between the two of them, even though I'm still waiting for a decent kiss between them). Yet that show is generally ALSO a great example of an ensemble show, although I'd say David and Emily probably still get more screen time than any two other characters... Anna Torv is pretty obviously THE star of "Fringe," yet it's also very much an ensemble show (and my favorite character is Astrid -- I generally go for a minor character on a show like that -- she's so cool the way she handles and puts up with all of Walter's idiosyncrasies, lol)...

The fact is, when the first Dollhouse thread started something like a year before the show actually debuted (I had to read more than 600 posts to catch up when I finally joined after the third episode, lol), there was, and still is, a lot of talk about how Eliza somehow had some kind of DEAL with Fox where they OWED her another show, and this show was HER idea, and she insisted they get Joss Whedon on board to make it, or something to that effect (personally, I think she had to be sort of backchanneling with JW beforehand -- they may be friends from "Buffy" days and run in similar circles). At any rate, REGARDLESS of what meddling FOX did, it IS quite possible that Eliza Dushku's EGO meddled with the show even more, and THAT'S responsible for so many "Echo-centric" episodes, as you're suggesting. If so, then you're right, Eliza, and possibly Joss, too, for not PUTTING HIS FOOT DOWN (maybe he didn't have the authority to, if she had enough clout to make sure the show got made to start with).

Assuming ED and/or JW ARE responsible for THOSE issues, then I agree with you it's NOT all Fox's fault, because I think MOST of us feel those sort of episodes are as responsible for "Dollhouse's" downfall as is Fox's meddling.
Jeff

Seems to me ED would get her cut out of it either way if it was a joint venture with her production company.

Good grief. Wheldon has a stinker on his hands and everyone wants to blame FOX. He wrote it not them.

Good grief. Wheldon has a stinker on his hands and everyone wants to blame FOX. He wrote it not them.
Read the thread and you will see that the problem with Dollhouse lay with Fox's failure early on to allow Whedon to be Whedon. Instead they jettisoned his pilot episode and then put together a bunch of freestanding episodes early on that spent way too much time on Dushku. When Fox woke up and let Whedon start doing his thing telling the Dollhouse backstory, Dollhouse improved markedly and has been consistently good ever since. That's why so many of here have come to love the show and are going to hate to see it go. Sorry you can't see it. It's your loss, it seems to me.

I have read the whole thread. Early on there was a lot of talk that the dialog wasn't "Joss like" among other complaints. Fox told them they wanted to start the series with episodic stand alone episodes as opposed to the serial style the show became after about the 6th episode. What I am pretty sure Fox didn't tell them was write crappy dialog and lame stories. The pop singer/bodyguard episode comes to mind.

Even into the 2nd season I am split about 50-50 between really liking and hating the show. I thought the writing in these last 2 episodes was a little weak.
For example in the first episode why does Topher, the computer genius, print out the plans for the mobile imprint device and then do a crappy job hiding them? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to have them in digital form on a drive with some kind of advanced data encryption? Then in the second episode was the "torturing" of Echo. When she came in they said she needed a treatment to get rid of her headaches. Wasn't the torture part just basically them denying her the treatment so she had to suffer the headaches? Then they let her out of the cell to program her for a mission and she loads the personality from her brain herself. Wasn't doing that what was giving her the headaches to begin with?

First, it wasn't necessary to put your spoiler markings in because you discussed episodes that have already aired. You asked, "For example in the first episode why does Topher, the computer genius, print out the plans for the mobile imprint device and then do a crappy job hiding them?" I thought that was answered by one of the other Dollhouse folks, who said something to the effect that "Topher's not smart, he's a genius." I agreed and thought that Topher's gaffe was consistent with his brilliant but neurotic and naive personality.

The fact is, when the first Dollhouse thread started something like a year before the show actually debuted (I had to read more than 600 posts to catch up when I finally joined after the third episode, lol), there was, and still is, a lot of talk about how Eliza somehow had some kind of DEAL with Fox where they OWED her another show, and this show was HER idea, and she insisted they get Joss Whedon on board to make it, or something to that effect (personally, I think she had to be sort of backchanneling with JW beforehand -- they may be friends from "Buffy" days and run in similar circles).If I'm remembering correctly, Joss said he came up with a 'sketch' of an idea, but they brainstormed together over lunch and came up with a more fleshed-out premise.

First, it wasn't necessary to put your spoiler markings in because you discussed episodes that have already aired. You asked, "For example in the first episode why does Topher, the computer genius, print out the plans for the mobile imprint device and then do a crappy job hiding them?" I thought that was answered by one of the other Dollhouse folks, who said something to the effect that "Topher's not smart, he's a genius." I agreed and thought that Topher's gaffe was consistent with his brilliant but neurotic and naive personality.

OK, I'll remove them. I know they aren't necessary, but I figured since this is a heavily DVR'd show I'd add them. I didn't want to spoil anyone who came in to discuss apostrophe use or accents. :)

I see your point about Topher. I guess it just seemed weird to me that he would even print it out to begin with. If he had left it in an unprotected folder on his computer named "stuff to hide from Rossum" I wouldn't probably have thought twice about it.

I see your point about Topher. I guess it just seemed weird to me that he would even print it out to begin with. If he had left it in an unprotected folder on his computer named "stuff to hide from Rossum" I wouldn't probably have thought twice about it.
ROFL! I wouldn't have put it past Topher to do that, either.

Fun Fact: the 1921 Czech play R.U.R. by Karel Capek coined the word "robot." The full name of the play? "Rossum's Universal Robots." And his robots were not metal, they were human-like (replicants, androids). And they destroyed humanity.

Joss knows his dramatic literature.

When Fox woke up and let Whedon start doing his thing telling the Dollhouse backstory, Dollhouse improved markedly and has been consistently good ever since. That's why so many of here have come to love the show and are going to hate to see it go. Sorry you can't see it. It's your loss, it seems to me.So if the show has really "righted" itself since that far back, why is it being cancelled?

Even into the 2nd season I am split about 50-50 between really liking and hating the show. I thought the writing in these last 2 episodes was a little weak.And that impression is probably what the majority out there who have tried and tried to watch the show have. I don't care what anybody here says or thinks - it just doesn't make sense that the show's failure after doing two, whole seasons of episodes are all due to "FOX's meddling early on". There's obviously more than just that (even if there was more culpability on FOX's part, it wasn't just their "meddling early on").

I think there are some here who just can't handle "constructive criticism" - especially where it involves someone they put on a pedestal.

Kind of ignorant, actually - makes you wonder who really would like to see the show continue.

That's a little harsh, don't you think? I post only on a few TV threads here on AVS, but this is one of the more interesting ones - mainly because the opinions expressed have been so varied. I've heard lots of constructive criticism, and some healthy praise, especially lately. Things have remained pretty civil, and balanced. Given the strong reactions this show has brought out in people, you can't ask for much more than that.

Yeah, it did come across a little harsh, and that wasn't really what I was trying to convey - so I expunged it and re-did the post.

I wouldn't blame FOX entirely either... but there is the snowball theory...

The first 6 episodes were not the direction the creators wanted to take. They had to improvise new episodes for FOX, and perhaps improvise in ways they were not good at doing... so those episodes suffered and lost some initial audience who never came back.

Meanwhile... I do blame FOX not as much for the meddling but for buying a show that they probably already didn't like from the premise. Other networks do this too, and it baffles me... how they will buy an episodic program with an obviously complicated plot that takes a while to grasp AND is targeting a specific audience... then are surprised when the ratings don't go through the roof.

Even if this was the super-awesomist show ever, it would have a limited audience and would be an uphill battle. I'm glad it got made, and I mostly enjoy it... but the lack of ratings doesn't surprise me.

So why do they have to kill it completely? Just re-work the show so that it's not so ED-focused and is more "Whedon-esque", and just move it to FX.

Still can't help but feel there's some kind of "ego" involved.

Originally Posted by gwsat
When Fox woke up and let Whedon start doing his thing telling the Dollhouse backstory, Dollhouse improved markedly and has been consistently good ever since. That's why so many of here have come to love the show and are going to hate to see it go. Sorry you can't see it. It's your loss, it seems to me.
So if the show has really "righted" itself since that far back, why is it being cancelled?
I assume that Fox has decided to cancel Dollhouse because they have concluded the show's ratings don't merit continuing the expense of making it for another season. That has nothing to do with critical merit, of course, as the panoply of wildly popular and endlessly renewed reality shows demonstrates. Those of us who love Dollhouse think that Fox is making a mistake but, since it's not our money, we don't get to vote.:)

So why do they have to kill it completely? Just re-work the show so that it's not so ED-focused and is more "Whedon-esque", and just move it to FX.

Still can't help but feel there's some kind of "ego" involved.

Not just about Dollhouse... I've argued this for all the broadcast channels that also own cable networks. There's no reason why FX couldn't show something that FOX was interested in and survive with lower ratings. Similarly SciFi/USA/UniversalHD could have NBC castoffs.

I used "Monk" on USA as a good example. Here's a show that lasted 8 good years on USA... but only managed 2 years (if that) when they tried it out on ABC.

It seems like the broadcast networks are still operating with old numbers as if they are the only game in town... meanwhile several cable channels (some owned by those same OTA networks as already noted) seem to have hits with lower standards.

The way I see it, Rammi, is that those first six episodes (and the ongoing ridiculous opening title sequence) ran off at least some of the potential TRUE sci-fi and Joss Whedon fan base, while not really garnering enough of the OTHER fan base Fox was hoping to attract, and that by the time the more "Whedonesque" episodes emerged, the "snowball effect" HEMe2 alluded to had already begun to occur. Combine with that the fact that "Dollhouse's" concept was still having to be laid out piecmeal even after the first six episodes, due to the fact that they sort of screwed with the initial concept, and ratings just continued to drop on what would have already been, likely, at best a marginal show on a Big-4 network to begin with.

A concept show such as "Dollhouse" comes out of the gate with the deck largely stacked against it on a Big-4 network. MESS with that concept just a little bit and you're likely to DOOM it, as once the inertia begins going in the wrong direction, it's practically impossible to reverse it, I think. IF, as many of us suspect, Eliza Dushku's EGO was adding to the problems, well, I'm certain that didn't help matters any, although I seriously doubt we'll get the real story behind ED on this show for a long time, if ever.

It's entirely possible there's some executive at Fox who's infatuated with her and has been more behind her overuse in the show than she has. I don't keep up with "inside-Hollywood gossip" much, so I have no idea what circles she runs in, or who her "main squeeze" is... or who she might be related to... It could even have been Joss's idea, although I can't really imagine how, since he had Morena Baccarin at her absolute MOST GORGEOUS in both "Firefly" and the "Serenity" movie, and yet he used her very little. I think if JW were of that sort of mind, he'd have had MB out front and center, half naked (or less) at every opportunity.

Again, we're all doing an awful lot of theorizing on topics about which we have NO WAY of really knowing much of anything, lol. Like gwsat said, I'm just happy we're getting to see two seasons, and even the bad episodes have been better than A LOT of the best episodes of most of the other schlock on TV.
Jeff

Not just about Dollhouse... I've argued this for all the broadcast channels that also own cable networks. There's no reason why FX couldn't show something that FOX was interested in and survive with lower ratings. Similarly SciFi/USA/UniversalHD could have NBC castoffs.

I used "Monk" on USA as a good example. Here's a show that lasted 8 good years on USA... but only managed 2 years (if that) when they tried it out on ABC.

It seems like the broadcast networks are still operating with old numbers as if they are the only game in town... meanwhile several cable channels (some owned by those same OTA networks as already noted) seem to have hits with lower standards.

I don't get it, either, HDMe2.

In the case of "Monk," those first two seasons, they were actually doing first-runs on USA, then re-running the season on ABC. Funny thing is, USA was then, and as far as I know has been for quite some time -- if not always -- owned by NBC/Universal -- a DIRECT COMPETITOR of Disney-owned ABC. I never DID figure that one out, lol. At the time I figured ABC owned USA. It wasn't until they had the 911 benefit concerts and I got to see all the networks simulcasting their broadcasts on their cable channels that I learned who owned what, and that USA was a NBC/Universal property.

All the same, I STRONGLY concur that "popular" shows that just aren't pulling a "billable" rating on the Big-4 networks SHOULD be given a shot on one of their cable outlets. It just MAKES SENSE/CENTS.
Jeff

To figure out the Monk angle I'd have to look and see who actually produces it... if it isn't a NBC/Universal production that might explain how they sold it to both USA and ABC for a time. Otherwise, I'm with you that it seemed weird.

Strangely, NBC did air a few episodes of Psych (USA) and Battlestar Galactica (SciFi) but except for the BSG pilot, I think most of those were strike-season replacement programming for the most part.

A show like Dollhouse, whether or not it is great "art"... it seems to me that getting 1-2 half-hearted seasons on FOX where the network isn't fully behind it, it's a tough concept to market, and the network wants to chase the ratings with a guy threatening to pull the plug... Dollhouse then becomes like Firefly where it is a "proven" failure on TV that makes it tough to sell it to another network once it gets canceled.

BUT... if Dollhouse went to FX or even SyFy from the start... it might get more of a chance to grow, and less meddling. Maybe it would still fail, but I somehow feel like it'd get more of a fair chance to succeed or fail on its own merits.

Okay, getting back to the actual show... I'm confused. I've only seen the first of the two episodes aired on Friday, so forgive me if they explain this better in the second episode. But... WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT THING WITH THE ILLEGAL GIRL ALL ABOUT! Or do I need to hold on until I see the next episode?

That confused me a bit as well. I can only imagine that because Echo's actions got the girl thrown into prison, once Echo and Ballard reunited, they used her jail escape as the final "test" of Echo's ability to manage her multiple personalities.

I don't think the illegal herself is important. I checked out the actresses prior work in mexican cinema. WOW, she was heavily underutilized on Dollhouse :P

It could even have been Joss's idea [to give Eliza Dushku so much screen time], although I can't really imagine how, since he had Morena Baccarin at her absolute MOST GORGEOUS in both "Firefly" and the "Serenity" movie, and yet he used her very little. I think if JW were of that sort of mind, he'd have had MB out front and center, half naked (or less) at every opportunity.
After watching Baccarin's new series, V, I have reluctantly concluded that, despite her luminous beauty, Baccarin is just not a very strong actress. At least she has not been strong enough to convincingly portray the evil alien villainess she plays in V. Thus it could be that Joss Whedon limited her screen time in Firefly and Serenity in selfdefense.:) Although Dushku's talent will never be confused with that of Meryl Streep, it seems to me that she is nonetheless a significantly better actress than Baccarin.

I'll be interested to see what Enver Gjokaj ("Victor") does after the show -the guy steals every scene he is in.

Yeah, THAT and centsless, too -- I'm probably both already, anyway, and just not awake enough to realize it, lol.

Hey, I finally got a chance to view the unaired pilot, and then, since it'd been so long, I re-watched the original aired pilot for comparison. While the one that actually aired was a good show, I think the suits at Fox Programming are INSANE. The pilot they CUT showed SO MUCH of where Joss wanted to take that show in just ONE episode -- stuff that didn't come out until half-way through the season after they made the changes -- I think showing that much up front might have engendered more interest, BUT it also didn't have any "complete active engagement" sequences, and Fox apparently wanted it ALL to be "episodic" TV... couldn't even stand for the PILOT to introduce the freakin' concept. PLUS, the pilot was DEFINITELY not as "sexy" as the one they ended up with -- no dancing in frilly dresses, or "professional negotiator" walking around dressed up like a hot librarian... I was somewhat surprised how DARK the original pilot portrayed Topher, however, but I really LIKED the idea that it had Dr. Saunders having actives do some "pro-bono" work, which is something that's never been done on the show since.

I really feel that original pilot -- especially the way it ended -- would have set such a different tone for the entire series that we'd be well on the way to Season 3 at this point.

FREAKIN' IDIOT PROGRAMMING EXECUTIVES!!!
Jeff

Where did you see the unaired pilot? (Sorry if it's buried in the thead here somewhere, I did a quick scan and couldn't find it and don't have time for more hunting.)

Where did you see the unaired pilot? (Sorry if it's buried in the thead here somewhere, I did a quick scan and couldn't find it and don't have time for more hunting.)It's on the Season 1 Blu-Ray and DVD. Amazon.com: **Original Unaired Pilot - "Echo"

I'll be interested to see what Enver Gjokaj ("Victor") does after the show -the guy steals every scene he is in.

He must have been having a lot of fun with that role. I agree. It will be interesting to see what he ends up doing next.

After watching Baccarin's new series, V, I have reluctantly concluded that, despite her luminous beauty, Baccarin is just not a very strong actress. At least she has not been strong enough to convincingly portray the evil alien villainess she plays in V. Thus it could be that Joss Whedon limited her screen time in Firefly and Serenity in selfdefense.:) Although Dushku's talent will never be confused with that of Meryl Streep, it seems to me that she is nonetheless a significantly better actress than Baccarin.

I'm inclined to disagree, gwsat.

In what little acting I DID see Morena do on both of the "Firefly" projects, as well as the considerable role she had playing Adria in "Stargate: SG 1" and one of the two movies they made after the series ended, I found her acting and performances a good deal more nuanced and convincing than what I've seen thus far on "V." And most of us in that thread have found numerous OTHER issues with that show already, outnumbered only by "Flash Forward," which has had more time to accumulate issues, lol. So I'm guessing Morena may be more a victim of her role and/or poor writing and/or weak directing on "V" than a lack of talent. She also looks so THIN on "V" that I almost have to wonder if she's sick, but that could be some sort of computer enhancement used to give her just a "certain look." She certainly doesn't look nearly as HOT on there as she has everywhere else we've seen her.
Jeff

He must have been having a lot of fun with that role. I agree. It will be interesting to see what he ends up doing next.

I never heard of Enver before this show (of course I could have seen him in something else, yet never noticed him -- haven't looked him up on IMDB yet). But I have to agree; he looks like the TRUE breakout star of this series, to date.
Jeff

last Friday's eps were very very good.

I'm inclined to disagree, gwsat.

In what little acting I DID see Morena do on both of the "Firefly" projects, as well as the considerable role she had playing Adria in "Stargate: SG 1" and one of the two movies they made after the series ended, I found her acting and performances a good deal more nuanced and convincing than what I've seen thus far on "V." And most of us in that thread have found numerous OTHER issues with that show already, outnumbered only by "Flash Forward," which has had more time to accumulate issues, lol. So I'm guessing Morena may be more a victim of her role and/or poor writing and/or weak directing on "V" than a lack of talent. She also looks so THIN on "V" that I almost have to wonder if she's sick, but that could be some sort of computer enhancement used to give her just a "certain look." She certainly doesn't look nearly as HOT on there as she has everywhere else we've seen her.
Jeff -- We do seem to agree that, for whatever reason, Baccarin's performances in V have been underwhelming. As noted earlier, I liked her in Firefly and Serenity, too. I did not, however, see Stargate: SG 1. I would like to be able to agree with you that her performance problems on V should be laid at the feet of the writers and director. I guess we will have to wait for her next project to find out, though.

As far as Morena is concerned, the way her roles were/are written in 'Firefly' and 'V' didn't/don't require a great deal of range as an actress (I didn't see her in SG-1, so can't speak to her role there). I always thought she was a somewhat limited thespian. However, she's just so gorgeous she maybe gets more of a pass than some others (*cough Eliza cough*).

But perhaps some of her lack of appeal in 'V' has to do with the hairstyle (which accentuates the relatively sharp lines of her face) and pantsuits not doing her stunning figure as much justice as the low-cut, flowing "companion-wear" she sported in 'Firefly'.

I finally got caught up again and I thought the last 4 epiosdes were great. Hopefully we get to see Bennett again before the season wraps up. It seems they left out a few pieces there. Also what happened with Alpha? Did he just get tired and leave?

Also what happened with Alpha? Did he just get tired and leave?

I'll bet he's back in time for Omega...

Also what happened with Alpha? Did he just get tired and leave?

Oh come on, dude. Do you REALLY think that's Alpha's style?!? Au contraire! Would he be known as ALPHA were he of such limited resolve?

I feel certain we have yet to see the last of the dastardly deeds and master plan of Herr Alpha, and it wouldn't really surprise me to see him end up somehow teaming up with (or using) the Beastly Beautiful Bennett in some maniacal manner (sorry, I'm sort of stuck on assonance tonight, lol).

It really doesn't matter. The way this show is going now, no matter WHAT happens in the remaining 7 episodes, I think it's BOUND to blow us away!
Jeff

Oh come on, dude. Do you REALLY think that's Alpha's style?!? Au contraire! Would he be known as ALPHA were he of such limited resolve?

I feel certain we have yet to see the last of the dastardly deeds and master plan of Herr Alpha, and it wouldn't really surprise me to see him end up somehow teaming up with (or using) the Beastly Beautiful Bennett in some maniacal manner (sorry, I'm sort of stuck on assonance tonight, lol).

It really doesn't matter. The way this show is going now, no matter WHAT happens in the remaining 7 episodes, I think it's BOUND to blow us away!
Jeff

I just thought I missed something is all. I've had a cold these last couple days.

How many episodes are left? I thought the final two were airing this Friday.

Answered my own question. It appearts that there are 5 eps left.
two will air this friday then the final three in January.

^^^Not enough, dadgumit.

^^^Not enough, dadgumit.

And a humble and HAPPY welcome back to the great Archiguy!

Not enough, indeed! If only the WORLD COULD END immediately AFTER the final episode of "Dollhouse" does, that would be almost perfect. Then we could have no regrets, as we'd have NO TIME to have any. :eek: :p :cool:
Jeff

And a humble and HAPPY welcome back to the great Archiguy!

Not enough, indeed! If only the WORLD COULD END immediately AFTER the final episode of "Dollhouse" does, that would be almost perfect. Then we could have no regrets, as we'd have NO TIME to have any. :eek: :p :cool:
Jeff

I'm not sure I'm willing to go quite that far...:)

Ahhhhhhhhh, if only ALL THE WORLD were the Middle East -- but only some think IT IS.

If only we could lock all the folks who want to FIGHT over the Middle East into a big room and let them all kill each other, perhaps the rest of us (including MOST who LIVE in the Middle East) might live in peace.
Jeff

And a humble and HAPPY welcome back to the great Archiguy!


Thx Jeff; I wanted to time my thrilling comeback with Alpha's. :p

Seriously, is this going to be a thrill ride leading all the way up to "Epitaph 2" or what? Joss finally gets to make the show he wanted, but nobody's watching anymore. Uh, not that we - the strong, the brave, the eminently patient - are nobodies, of course. We rock. Joss rocks. Victor and Topher and Sierra and Ballard and November and Boyd and Adelle rock. Heck, even Echo rocks! (Hey, it's Christmastime! Don't be a Scrooge.)

I shall miss this show when it's gone. There. I said it. :o

where the hell is Whiskey?

where the hell is Whiskey?

On the road somewhere

Looking for a new job.

In the backbar... ;)

She's been at my place...

I'm unclear on something: did Adele hand over to Evil Boss Guy Topher's device that can reprogram any person walking down the street in exchange for control of the dollhouse? is she bonkers?

I'm unclear on something: did Adele hand over to Evil Boss Guy Topher's device that can reprogram any person walking down the street in exchange for control of the dollhouse? is she bonkers?

That she did, but she may have had a reason. Perhaps she felt that since he was directing so much research into the project, it was only a matter of time until one of his minions, probably Summer, figured it out independent of Topher. So, since he was eventually going to get it anyway, why not use Topher's research as a bargaining chip to get back control of "her" house. And if she wanted to fight Rossum's evil plans clandestinely, she would be back in a position of power and influence - better armed for the battle to come.

There are a lot of layers to Adelle, not all of which we've seen yet - my guess.

Thx Jeff; I wanted to time my thrilling comeback with Alpha's. :p

Seriously, is this going to be a thrill ride leading all the way up to "Epitaph 2" or what? Joss finally gets to make the show he wanted, but nobody's watching anymore. Uh, not that we - the strong, the brave, the eminently patient - are nobodies, of course. We rock. Joss rocks. Victor and Topher and Sierra and Ballard and November and Boyd and Adelle rock. Heck, even Echo rocks! (Hey, it's Christmastime! Don't be a Scrooge.)

I shall miss this show when it's gone. There. I said it. :o

Guess what else rocks??? -- total off-topic post, sorry. :cool:

I just got back from seeing the PREMIERE of "Avatar" in 3D at my local Stadium theater, and, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

I LOVE YOU, JAMES CAMERON... at least as much as a straight man can love another man JUST for making great movies!

I'd been planning to probably wait until my birthday, Saturday, and try to sneak in a matinee, BUT sometime during a commercial break during CSI tonight I decided to go to Moviefone and see where "Avatar" would be playing in the area, and Lo and Behold it turned out that just about EVERY theater in the country considered FRIDAY to mean 12:01 a.m., lol.

At first I thought, "Well everybody will know about this, and there'll be a line around the theater." But then I thought, "No they won't... They'll all think it starts sometime TOMORROW afternoon." I figured that at any rate, since I didn't have ANY shows I wanted to watch after "The Mentalist" was over at 11, I could wrap up a few things online, freshen up and swing by the theater to see, so I left the house about 11:35 and I was in the door (it just happened to be at my favorite theater, which is also one of the closest) by 11:45 -- NO line, heck, the theater wasn't even HALF full... got the EXACT favorite seat I always like to sit in, with a spare beside me for my "stuff," lol.

I turned the TV back on, and it's still on CBS... Just saw a clip about the movie, where they mentioned that amid all the praise some folks are also deriding it, calling it something like "Dances with Blue People," or something like that... Well, go ahead...

I LOVED IT!
Jeff

I turned the TV back on, and it's still on CBS... Just saw a clip about the movie, where they mentioned that amid all the praise some folks are also deriding it, calling it something like "Dances with Blue People," or something like that... Well, go ahead...

LOL ... well I haven't seen the movie (and probably won't until it hits PPV or BD) but I did see a clip of it on an (undisclosed) talk-show and noticed some epically (think Lucas level) trite and cringe worthy dialog. Surely they could have picked a better clip to sell the movie?????? :eek:

Where the hell was this Dollhouse? The past 6 episodes have been fan-f***ing-tastic. Absolutely classic Joss Whedon. I care about the characters...I care about the story...wow...I'm actually excited about the last 3 episodes.

Great, great, great episodes tonight

"The only thing we have left is Pirate Wench," and "How long do you think we're going to be able to hide this from Cruella DeWitt" were just TWO classic "Whedon comedic" lines in this best-yet-EVER "Dollhouse" double-episode!

And with the way it ended, I'm REALLY liking the way the NEXT episode is looking to shape up! Fantastic, Incredible, and what and how the attic is being used is SO EPIC -- given the technology available to Rossum, it makes PERFECT sense!
Jeff

I watched this episode last night, and LOVED it -- again. The show keeps getting better and better. It will be sorely missed. It's a shame that nobody but we hard core few seem to be watching anymore.

Somebody asked where Whiskey/Dr. Sanders was. Well, it appears that she will be in the next episode, which unfortunately won't run for three weeks. Apparently there are only three hours left for this wonderful series.

Its turned into an extended mini series, hasn't it? Its gotten so good in fact that I'm willing to concede I might have missed the point of some of the 1st season episodes that I was so harsh on. Seeing everyone in Adele's office at ther end of the episode took me right back to the days of the Scoobys in the Sunnydale library. "Its time to go to war" indeed...for me, this is as good as it gets. ED is in her comfort zone now, this is what she does best. And Whedon has redeemed himself in my eyes, I feel embarassed I didn't have more faith in is vision. I'm probably also a Jed fanboy now...

I agree! The most recent episodes have taken the story in a direction that is far more entertaining than the first season and a half. I don't understand why the series wasn't taken in this direction in the first place. I believe if it had been, the show would have been far more popular and could have continued far longer.

For those who have the DVD/Blu set... if you watch the original unaired pilot, you will note that many plot points that they split over 5-6 episodes of the season were really covered in one pilot episode.

It looks like the change-of-direction from FOX resulted in a lot of story padding to spread out the pilot over about 6 weeks.

IF left to the original pilot, I think the pace of the story would have moved along much quicker from the start.

For those who have the DVD/Blu set... if you watch the original unaired pilot, you will note that many plot points that they split over 5-6 episodes of the season were really covered in one pilot episode.

It looks like the change-of-direction from FOX resulted in a lot of story padding to spread out the pilot over about 6 weeks.

IF left to the original pilot, I think the pace of the story would have moved along much quicker from the start.

Agreed. In fact last wk. I posted I thought the original idea was probably to be at this point halfway through the first season. We now have a superhero with a formidable team backing her up and a sinister adversary to deal with-perfect whedon territory. A shout out to Jeff on the pilot and his observation that the biggest difference between it and the initial aired episodes was the tone. I think you hit it on the head, jeff. "Echo" is prime wheadon and if the the first episodes could have been in the same mode instead of "dumbed down" whedon we'd have a far better idea if the show could have succeeded on its own terms. Instead we can only think about what might have been..hmm, think we've been here before with a certain space western,

I just finished watching. It's staggering how much more interesting and intelligent this year's episodes have been. And I can imagine that the actors who play these parts must be rejoicing in their release from the sterile world they were a part of for so long. Of course, that joy must be tempered by the fact of looming unemployment for most of them. The flip side of that ugly coin is that at least now they'll have better clips for their reels than they would have before.

The sad thing for those of us who have become real fans is that we'll have characters we're just beginning to love snatched away from us. Sierra probably won't make it, but with a few more episodes she might have been poised to take her place alongside Sarah Walker, Allison Blake and Rachel Berry in my own personal Pantheon of television goddesses.

I guess Joss has this history with Fox the studio, which unfortunately is also FOX the network, arguably the most conservative of all the major networks. Whatever you want to say about old Rupert, he's certainly no dummy, and he has this vision of his networks advancing his conservative agenda. I don't think Joss' prophensity to have his shows concern a band of misfits fighting against either a massive intergallactic empire or a massive conspiracy to control people's minds as the sort of entertainment he wants FOX to inject into the zeitgeist.

I guess Joss has this history with Fox the studio, which unfortunately is also FOX the network, arguably the most conservative of all the major networks. Whatever you want to say about old Rupert, he's certainly no dummy, and he has this vision of his networks advancing his conservative agenda. I don't think Joss' prophensity to have his shows concern a band of misfits fighting against either a massive intergallactic empire or a massive conspiracy to control people's minds as the sort of entertainment he wants FOX to inject into the zeitgeist.

:D :D :D

Note to Joss - there are other networks.

After last night I know I'll definitely be picking up the bluray when it comes out. This is shaping up to be one of the most satisfying final seasons I've seen in a long time. With all the amazing shows that have been cut short and left unresolved lately, Dollhouse is really blowing away my expectations. This is how you go out in a blaze of glory.

I just finished watching. It's staggering how much more interesting and intelligent this year's episodes have been. And I can imagine that the actors who play these parts must be rejoicing in their release from the sterile world they were a part of for so long. Of course, that joy must be tempered by the fact of looming unemployment for most of them. The flip side of that ugly coin is that at least now they'll have better clips for their reels than they would have before.

The sad thing for those of us who have become real fans is that we'll have characters we're just beginning to love snatched away from us. Sierra probably won't make it, but with a few more episodes she might have been poised to take her place alongside Sarah Walker, Allison Blake and Rachel Berry in my own personal Pantheon of television goddesses.

In fact, after last night's episode, and upon reflection, I'm even thinking Eliza is a much better actress than most of us have been giving her credit for. I believe a crippled plot and plotline limited both the writing and her character up until now, but the job she did last night was pretty darned good, I thought. In fact, the entire two episodes simply SPARKLED with intensity on her part, and the part of most of the actors, and pretty much overall (there was some subdued acting, but it fit their roles, like Boyd, who was either depressed or drunk through most of the show). I think Olivia Williams was pretty brilliant with HER performance last night, going so literally from one persona to another that we WERE led to believe she WAS "a doll" at certain points.

Dichen and Enver were pretty good, too, but last night was really not a point for either of them to "shine" as they have in prior episodes. It truly WAS a shining moment for Eliza Dushku, perhaps the best performance I've ever seen out of her!
Jeff

That she did, but she may have had a reason. Perhaps she felt that since he was directing so much research into the project, it was only a matter of time until one of his minions, probably Summer, figured it out independent of Topher. So, since he was eventually going to get it anyway, why not use Topher's research as a bargaining chip to get back control of "her" house. And if she wanted to fight Rossum's evil plans clandestinely, she would be back in a position of power and influence - better armed for the battle to come.

There are a lot of layers to Adelle, not all of which we've seen yet - my guess.

I wish to take my bows now, for accurately predicting, earlier in this thread, that Adele gave Topher's plans to Rossum, to get back in their good graces, so that she could strike at them, and thwart their plans. That has been confirmed! :D Adele and Echo should make a good team.

I've slagged this series pretty hard. So let me join with others who have noted that if this was the show that had been airing last year....well it would have been a lot more entertaining!

Blame? I don't know any longer, network, Joss, ED, Joss+network, Jos+Network+ED?? How about letting him play in HBO or Showtime's sandbox next time?

I agree that the recent episodes are what we've been expecting from Joss Whedon. However, anyone else think that Echo is a little too Neo-esque ala Matrix? In the first episode from Friday, she gets uploaded up with the skills she needs for her mission. Then in the second episode, she's stuck in the Attic/Matrix.

Nonetheless, still enjoyable.

So what is Boyd up to? Whats all this personal business he's been involved in? Could it be Whiskey has been hanging out with him? Or is something more sinister going on?

I agree that the recent episodes are what we've been expecting from Joss Whedon. However, anyone else think that Echo is a little too Neo-esque ala Matrix? In the first episode from Friday, she gets uploaded up with the skills she needs for her mission. Then in the second episode, she's stuck in the Attic/Matrix.

Nonetheless, still enjoyable.

Echo is typical Joss. River Tam, and Buffy are clear precedents.

Excellent episodes, and I'm looking forward to the last three in January. Those scenes in The Attic were outstanding, and it's even more sinister than I had imagined. While watching earlier episodes knowing what I know now, I think that DeWitt might have been grooming Echo towards this ultimate goal all along, or maybe it's just my imagination.

There are surely parallels you could draw in this vs other Whedon stories...

The "dolls" being self-aware vs not has a slight feel of familiarity when compared to the vampires with and without souls.

You also have "watchers" (handlers) and "slayers" (dolls) if you want to look at it that way.

The concept that the doll isn't the real person, is similar to the vampire not being the original living person... Inhabited by "demons" could be compared to imprinting.

It's almost like the vampire and the slayer combined somehow in this series.

Not saying I look at Dollhouse this way consciously... but if you take time to pick it apart, its easy to see similar story construction.

Echo's ability to call up different skill sets to meet mission situations looks similar to Chuck's new abilities, which we'll get a chance to see in a few weeks. It will be interesting to see how similarly these "abilities" play out on screen, although the tone of these shows is quite different (notwithstanding the greater incidence of Whedon humor that's crept into the more recent Dollhouse scripts).

So what is Boyd up to? Whats all this personal business he's been involved in? Could it be Whiskey has been hanging out with him? Or is something more sinister going on?

Well Whiskey hanging out with him could be rather sinister, in itself.

I have long thought that whoever had pushed to have Ballard investigate the Dollhouse, while he was in the FBI, had another agent, probably on the inside. This may well be Boyd. At any rate, I am sure Boyd has some motive, beyond supporting his particular "dollhouse," for helping Adele to bring down Rossum.

Well Whiskey hanging out with him could be rather sinister, in itself.

I have long thought that whoever had pushed to have Ballard investigate the Dollhouse, while he was in the FBI, had another agent, probably on the inside. This may well be Boyd. At any rate, I am sure Boyd has some motive, beyond supporting his particular "dollhouse," for helping Adele to bring down Rossum.

How true that could well be... If one considers just what we know Rossum is NOW involved in, based on recent episodes, combined with the bad things they were doing when Caroline was still a college student, trying to "out them," it's highly likely this company has hurt a lot of people and stepped on even more toes along the way, and some of those people may just have decided to get even by surreptiously getting hired by the company and working their way into positions as handlers, security chiefs and maybe even the "head of household."

However, based on what we've seen from Adele in the past, I still have the feeling that she actually felt (or at least had deluded herself into believing) that the Dollhouse system actually WAS helping everyone -- a sort of "win-win" for all sides, since the people who "volunteered" to become dolls were all running from SOMETHING -- the law, or some personal tragedy or something they couldn't face in real life, and the Dollhouse gave them a way out of that in exchange for five years of their life, after which they'd be returned to society with whatever problem they had TOTALLY FIXED, a multi-million-dollar bank account, and "looked after" until they found their footing again. And she was "protective" of making sure none of them were ever put into serious harm (although she couldn't really EVER be sure, but she felt she did her best).

But once she was SURE Rossum was doing something like they did with Anthony/Victor -- almost IMMEDIATELY stealing his independence BACK away from him and essentially making him a sort of "mental collective robot soldier," ANY delusions she had about the long-term GOOD the Dollhouse was doing for its Dolls HAD to be completely stripped away, leaving her with two choices... be completely EVIL, or plot a rebellion.
Jeff