I am a noob and need your opinion. I have $60,000 for a stereo/HDTV entertainment center. I have no experience using high-end gear. However, I recently purchased a Sennheiser HD650 Headphone, HeadRoom Amp, and Cables for my computer and while not top end it is worth more than the $3000 I paid for the system. From that experience I learned good gear makes a difference. Especially high quality cables. The below is what I plan on buying. The room it is going in is only 35 feet by 28 feet. The S8s may be overkill or the entire system as listed may be more than I need for the room size.

Speakers: Paradigm Signature S8 – Fronts _ $6000
Paradigm Signature C5 – Center - $2800
Paradigm Signature ADP3 – Surrounds - $2700
Paradigm Signature Servo – Subwoofer - $3500

Amp/Video: Anthem Statement D2 – Audio/Video Processor - $7000
Anthem Statement P5 – Amplifier - $6000

Components: Ayre DX-7e DVD/CD player - $6000
Ayre L-5xe AC power filter – two - $3000

Cables/Connectors/Power Cords - $5000 estimate, which cables do you think are the best in that price range?

HDTV Sony or Pioneer -$10,000 I will decide

Computer: $4000 I will decide

Stands/Enclosures: $3000

$59,000

Are there better components for roughly the same price?

Understand that I will not be considering your advice but will be accepting it and doing as you say.

Be prepared for 7,845 opinions.

But let me make one recommendation. Take $5000 out of your budget for making the room as good as possible. There a number of organizations that you can use to design a great room for you but my experience with Rives Audio has been excellent (as it has for a number of other folks on this forum). His cost (consulting only) will set you back about $1000 to $2000, That leaves $3K to $4K to purchase/build whatever you need to implement what Rives recommends.

My personal experience is that the room is the most critical "component" in your system.

But good luck ......

The room it is going in is only 35 feet by 28 feet.

Only 35 x 28? A tiny room like that couldn't possibly be used for a home theater.:)

All kidding aside, that is a huge room. Really, contact a good local custom installer that can design and build a room, or call a theater designer like Dennis Erskine, Terry Montlick, the previously mentioned Rives, Tony Grimani etc. Get the room designed and built properly. Then let the professional design the electronic systems. Get a properly setup front projection system. And second in importance to the room itself, have a proper control system designed and installed.

You will get a hundred different versions of your equipment list and they are all coorect in their own way. But all the best equipment in a poorly designed room can sound as bad and perform as badly as a $500 HTIB from COstco.

That isa huge room

You do realize that this is a troll? The cable sentence gave it away in the first paragraph.

I second audioguy on his post. Proper treatments of the room can make a great amount of difference. In most treated rooms that I walk into, the sound is more controlled and ultimately that is what you want. The more you can control your room and the frequencies bouncing around, the better.

If you dont mind me asking, where did you come up with this list of equipment to begin with?

-Matt

Hi

You will get a good number of opinions in this forum. One thing for certain your budget is enough for a top-flight system, Let that be clear.
It would be interesting to know your mix of music and cinema. that would help.

Room Acoustics. I will repeat the previous advice , Budget for at least $5,000 for this item.
These days in any video system HD is a must. The best sources of HD at this point in time are HD DVD and Blu-Ray. I would add one or both in the system. They are usually stunning. I have heard good things about the Ayre but it should be known that NO regular DVD player can provide as good a picture as any, even the least expensive HD DVD or Blu-Ray out there.. Just compare the Toshiba sold at Wal Mart with any regular DVD and this will be clear... On Audio CD the Ayre would be their superior , no doubt but on video, it is HD compared to Standard Def.. No Contest...
For such a large room, I am not sure the Paradignm Sub would be the best choice... It would be wise to investigate there... A trip on Audiogon for subs maybe... My personal favorite are IB as they afford you the best bass for the least amount of money... They are however a custom/permanent solution. An Infinite Baffle Subwoofer (IB) is built within the house itself.. Not as difficult as it sounds , actualy pretty easy but it is WITH the house... If you care about going flat down to below 10 Hz at 120 dB, an IB is the ONLY way to go.
Control. Far from trivial... The larger the system , the more difficult it is to control. Most of the so-called Universal Remote fail miserably in automating a fairly complicated system. Budget at least $3,000 for control.
For HD 10,000 these days can give you a lot... Would you go Front Projection or regular TV? or both? It is possible to have both with the 10,000 budget IMHO

Your budget seems to be for equipment/component alone. Will you be putting these together yourself? If you are a complete noob, this could be quite challenging

Hope this helps.. Good luck and welcome to the AVS >20 K forum...

Bballer123 the list came from Internet searches looking for the right speakers. I like loud Rock N Roll. The only component I am dead set on getting is the Paradigm speakers. The rest is to be determined.

I figure the system will be used 75% music and 25% TV

10K for the HDTV is more than I need but the Pioneer 60” is $6500 – Plasma and the Sony 70” not released yet (3 months) has no price as of yet. I thought about a projector but I would rarely use it.

Thank you for those that brought up room acoustics. As someone mentioned I am a noob and will have professionals install the system.

FrantzM I was wondering about Blue Ray/HD DVD thanks you saved me big bucks.

The system as of now:

Speakers: Paradigm Signature S8 – Fronts _ $6000
Paradigm Signature C5 – Center - $2800
Paradigm Signature ADP3 – Surrounds - $2700
Paradigm Signature Servo – Subwoofer - $3500

Amp/Video: Anthem Statement D2 – Audio/Video Processor - $7000
Anthem Statement P5 – Amplifier - $6000

Components: DVD Blue Ray / HD DVD $???????
Ayre L-5xe AC power filter – two - $3000
Ayre CX-7e CD Player - $3000

Room Acoustics - $5000

Cables/Connectors/Power Cords - $5000 estimate, which cables do you think are the best in that price range?

HDTV Sony or Pioneer -$7,000

Computer: $4000

Stands/Enclosures: $3000

$54,000

without wanting to sound insulting... a 60 inch tv in a 28' room will look about as silly as it gets.

WIthin the same ten grand category, you should look into a screen (can be had for pretty reasonable $$$, depending on whether it will be installed or a roll down) and a proj. possibly a used high brightness proj. THe advice i always give to folks just doing a first theatre is to actually spend far less on the proj than you might normally. the reality is the first time you watch sometihng on a 8' or wider "TV" you will have a grin that cannot be pulled off with a wrecking bar. THen a year down the road when you have a much better ideo about image quality, you upgrade the proj.

Seriously, try to draw out on a piece of paper how small a 60" tv will look in a room that big.

Also, do not forget to think about seating and lighting and control for all of this.

One more note, you have 5K allocated for cables, you should seriously think about just using some good quality cables from somebody like blue jean and then over time, if you want to look into the exotics, look at them as an upgrade after comparison.

When you put together the room, by all means, have a great sets of speakers, have a good screen, great electronics, but leave room for upgrades. in your first big room, you would likely not notice the sound (if at all) of the cables. but they can always be upgraded, and this way you have 4K more to use towards other elements.

Just my .02$

JVC RS2 or 1080p DLP projector instead of "TV"

Not sure why you'd be dead set on Paradigms. Kinda mass marketish for a "high-end" system.

I'd also lose the dipole speakers personally. That's so 20th century.

Dizzman I agree with what you said but is it normal to watch TV on a projector?

Alimentall trust me here I know nothing, you have my attention what speakers do you suggest?

You cannot stop now. You have left me not knowing what speakers to buy.

What speakers you buy are up to you, I was just surprised that you were firm on the speakers as there are far more good and/or personal choices with speakers than with electronics, TVs, PJs, etc.

Speaker brands you should also check out would be stuff like:

Aerial Acoustics, Triad, NHT Xd/Classic, Revel, PSB Synchrony, Joseph Audio. I'm sure others will think of other brands that are good. Nothing *wrong* with the Paradigms though. It's just really important to listen around a lot. Also, I think it would be better to expand the budget for speakers and drop the expense on electronics as electronics continue to change. You'll get far more spending $5K more on speakers instead of expensive cables or the amplifier. I'd be running a $2K-$3K 7-channel amp and a few $hundred in cables on $20K speakers without a care in the world. But that's just me. Speakers are no where near as evolved as the other parts of the system, so you'll hear every dollar you spend far more easily.

Hi

I find myself in agreement with Alimentall here... Speakers are a personal choice. It is however materially impossible to hear them all, so take these advices as starting point and listen as much as possible, try to find some enthusiasts with good system to have a good "feel" of whatsome sound like in a real world setting, sometime they sound much better than most stores

... I knew Alimentall was going to propose the NHT XD ;), no one in this forum would have been surprised has it been otherwise. His other choices are interesting as well.. One of his choices was PSB: one of the best value in this bobby, not in the sense of the somewhat condescending "good for the price".. Good in the sense of having to spend a lot more to even beginning to approach their performance... for the same speaker budget I would INTENSELY look at PSB and Dynaudio... I will leave others to comment on the choice of commercial subwoofers.. I repeat that the Paradigm will be somewhat lacing in such a big room... 2, maybe but there are other choices... People here will help...

I think, of all the speakers on the market, Xd should be required listening, just to see what is possible. Not everyone likes it obviously, but there's nothing else like it. PSB, Paradigm, B&W and many others fall into a certain type of sound, Revels, Joseph Audio, NHT Classic fall into other types of sound, but Xd? Love it or hate it, it's unique!

The new PSB Synchrony speakers are a much better value than Platinum, though, if you have a big room to fill, holy crap, T8s have a big powerful sound with essentially zero distortion - one of the lowest distortion speakers on the market *at any price* (though not without other minor faults). But the Synchrony has a softer, more lush sound in a more compact box that is better for a normal room.

I went with the costly components because Paradigm requires a steady high wattage input. I trust the folk in this forum far more than a salesman. Hopefully, I can narrow the speaker selection to three but for a 5.1 system I will pay no more than $25,000.

Why f_ck around with so many speaker choices? Dynaudio and call it a day.

The PSB Synchrony speakers seem better than the Dynaudio

I'll second the Aerial Acoustics. Yes, I am a very happy owner.
For the sub, Velodyne DD15s (2) would do very nice.
Might want to include Bryston in the mix for power as well, not a whole lot more than the Anthem stuff, and a much better warranty.

Take mine, as well as other posters "get this brand speaker" with a grain of salt, you need to listen to what your going to spend your hard earned cash on. Or, expect to play the endless "upgrade" game.

I am a noob and need your opinion. I have $60,000 for a stereo/HDTV entertainment center. I have no experience using high-end gear. However, I recently purchased a Sennheiser HD650 Headphone, HeadRoom Amp, and Cables for my computer and while not top end it is worth more than the $3000 I paid for the system. From that experience I learned good gear makes a difference. Especially high quality cables. The below is what I plan on buying. The room it is going in is only 35 feet by 28 feet. The S8s may be overkill or the entire system as listed may be more than I need for the room size.

Speakers: Paradigm Signature S8 – Fronts _ $6000
Paradigm Signature C5 – Center - $2800
Paradigm Signature ADP3 – Surrounds - $2700
Paradigm Signature Servo – Subwoofer - $3500

Amp/Video: Anthem Statement D2 – Audio/Video Processor - $7000
Anthem Statement P5 – Amplifier - $6000

Components: Ayre DX-7e DVD/CD player - $6000
Ayre L-5xe AC power filter – two - $3000

Cables/Connectors/Power Cords - $5000 estimate, which cables do you think are the best in that price range?

HDTV Sony or Pioneer -$10,000 I will decide

Computer: $4000 I will decide

Stands/Enclosures: $3000

$59,000

Are there better components for roughly the same price?

Understand that I will not be considering your advice but will be accepting it and doing as you say.

Addressed one at a time:

Speakers:
Get better speakers, like the Dynaudio Confidence C4s for the front, Confidence C1s for the rear (and whatever center works with those). Get two PEQ subs (Gotham or Revel B-15a).

Amp/Video:
Sounds good. You could go cheaper in order to get better speakers if you need to. Check out the Denon Receiver options available.

Components:
I wouldn't waste money on a power filter unless you find out you really need it... I didn't need one.

If you want to save more money, you could pair up the highest end Denon universal player (I would say wait until their HD and Blu-Ray player comes out, but that might be awhile) with the Denon Receiver and have an excellent setup with the Dynaudios I mentioned above. I would wait if you can until you can get a setup that includes HDMI 1.3 and BluRay and/or HD-DVD. I have HDTV cable, BluRay and HD-DVD in my setup and the picture resolution is excellent.

I own Ayre gear, and I love it. I wouldn't mix and match them with other equipment unless you absolutely have to, but that's just me being picky. The major advantage of Ayre equipment IMO, besides the quality of craftsmanship, clean sound, and no global feedback, is the handling of the signal in balanced mode internally (this means if you use all Ayre equipment the components will handle the signal in balanced mode from one end to the other without transitioning the signal into single-ended mode). If I had to choose though between better speakers with only Denon equipment and Ayre gear with lesser speakers, I would choose the better speakers without hesitation. Speakers have so much more of an effect on the sound than anything else in the system, assuming that the other parts of the system are simply adequate

Cables:
I like BetterCables personally. They have a layer of silver to help prevent oxidization and they sound exactly like the Nordost Frey cables I used before switching them out because I needed in-wall wiring. They are also only a very small fraction of the price. I wouldn't waste a lot of your money on something like cables which will give very small returns for your investment. If you won't be putting the wires in the wall, I would go even cheaper. People seem to like BlueJeans cables around here. Take the extra money left over and put more into your speakers instead...

HDTV:
I would get a front projector and a fixed size screen (or a retracting screen if you must, which is what I did). With the prices on projectors nowadays, it is crazy to get panels, etc... I bought my projector and screen from AVScience (this fora!) at a good price (among other things). I heartily recommend you get things here if they are available.

Computer:
Build your own with parts that can be overclocked heavily. There are plenty of tutorials on how to do so and you can pay half the price for the same computer by building it yourself. You can save even more if you overclock to a higher priced component's speed. I use newegg for the cheapest prices (www.newegg.com). Here is the one I built recently:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 overclocked to 3.2 GHz
Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme (CPU Cooling)
Patriot Extreme Performance PC2-8500 2GB RAM (2 * 1024 MB)
2 * BFG Tech OC2 8800GTX in SLI
eVGA nForce 680i SLI (122-CK-NF68-T1)
3 * Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 500 GB in RAID 1 configuration with an extra for backup
Creative SOUND BLASTER X-Fi Fatal1ty
ENERMAX Galaxy 850 Watt
Thermaltake Armor Series Case

BTW, I would consider Rives Audio for your acoustics. You can get excellent acoustical design schematics personalized for your room, your wants and your needs for a great price. They designed my room acoustics. It was well worth the price..............

They will even help you figure out how big a screen you would need, where to put seating, how to do the layout for optimal surround sound, etc, etc, etc.

Feel free to read "My HT" building thread in my signature below my posts. It details my experience with building my room and setting everything up. I general contracted the work myself and learned a lot in the process about acoustics, building acoustical devices and real time analysis.

I would highly suggest 1 or 2 gotham subwoofers. I may be crossing the line here, but I feel I may be somewhat right in this assumption. I have read many places that the common man would care for better low-end than better tonal balance. By you coming onto the board with a budget and some ideas but mainly saying give me your suggestions and I will take them, I would assume you would fall into that category. By all means, it is not a bad place to be in. It just means you prefer low-end dynamics (which I feel makes the movie) over a "neutral" and very "accurate" speaker.

Personally I am the same way. I would rather spend the extra money on my substage rather than on my frontstage. Now, with your budget, you will be able to get a good taste of both. I only hear good things about the Dynaudio Confidence line but it seems a little too much for his budget to balance evenly. I would suggest something along the lines of the Linn Akurate system. It creates a well balance as far as HT goes and if you wanted to listen in stereo, it would be more than accomodating for that as well.

My suggestion
Speakers: Linn Akurate series $19000
Subwoofer: JL Gotham- $11000
Receiver: Lexicon RV-5- $4000
Blu-ray/DVD: Pioneer Elite 95- $1000
Room Treatment: Rives- $5000
Television- Is the room an isloted room with controlled lighting? If not, Pioneer 60"- $6500. Is so, Sony vpl-vw60 and screen innovations screen~~ $6500
Cables and Interconnects: Like mentioned above Bluejeanscable? (haven't used them but heard only great things.) MAX $2000
CD player: Not going to make a recommendation because I am not up to speed on transports and players.
Stand/Rack: $1500
Computer: I would question spending that much on it. What would be your main purpose for it? I think you would be much happier with $4000 in automation rather than a $4000 computer. That's just me.
Total (without cd player): $54000 MSRP. It will be pretty easy chomping off a chunk of that through a dealer or online.

Well that's my 1.5 cents. I will probably revise it later, considering it is quite late and my thinking might not be all right.

The PSB Synchrony speakers seem better than the Dynaudio

Psb Anthem Paradigm. Canadian cheaper is better placebo effect. Mediocre at best.

Psb Anthem Paradigm. Canadian cheaper is better placebo effect. Mediocre at best.

Peter

Harsh opinion .. I do not know Anthem , have heard good things about them but PSB and Paradigm are not mediocre by any stretch... Let us stay levelled so as to not confuse the OP...


Clay

I do not know how experienced you are in putting PC of any sort together... I would not advise the neophyte to tackle putting together an HTPC.. It will take a good amount of time and the learning curve is rather steep...

You may need to consider some Internet subwoofer brands which have garnered good reviews.. two come to mind.. SVS and HSU.. Their prices are good and from all accounts the performance are good too... I have not heard any of them personally but I think SVS has a 30 day money-back guarantee.. Take your time to listen and evaluate. Try to visit people with good systems so as to build a reference in your mind...

I was forced to demo it and sell it for a year (don't tell me). Boxy sounding.

Psb Anthem Paradigm. Canadian cheaper is better placebo effect. Mediocre at best.

Dynaudio, B&W, Linn. European more expensive is better placebo effect. Mediocre and overpriced at best.

Clay, choosing a speaker is like choosing a religion. Everyone has their favorite above all else, but it only matters what you like. Take any suggestion as something to which you should listen, not necessarily buy. And don't let someone tell you that you shouldn't buy a brand. PSBs, Paradigms, etc, do have really great products. I'd certainly put the Synchrony up against Dynaudios any day. I think the Revel Studio line is extraordinary if you like the sound.

I do find that European speakers really don't offer nearly the value of American or Canadian speakers, for a lot of reasons, so even though your budget is very healthy, I think you'll more likely find a winner on this side of the pond. BUT, it doesn't cost anything to audition. Canadian speakers are more like European speakers than American speakers, and they generally have deeper, more powerful bass and center/rears that aren't as costly for the performance compared to their Euro counterparts. I'd take PSB Synchrony speakers over most any of the European speakers I've heard under about $20K, but they're probably just too inexpensive for what you're doing as there are certainly better speakers out there than Synchrony at $4500/pr.

As for budget, personally, if I had $60K to spend, I would to it this way:

$7500 for HD projector, motorized screen
$2500 for day time LCD panel
$10,000 for amp/preamp
$2500 *max* for surge, cables, adaptors, brackets, misc
$7500 for subwoofers
$30K for speakers

As a way different alternative, NHT has a full powered system coming next month (still, I think) that's designed to be hidden that is just amazing and is $45K for all the speakers, DSP, cables, subwoofers and, oh, about 5500W of power. Add $5000 for a preamp, $2500 for an LCD, $7500 for PJ/Screen. I'm sure there's enough discount in there to handle any misc expenses including some modest room treatment.

Another alternative is the Phase Tech dARTS system which is another fully active digital system, but I don't think it's quite in the same league as the bigger NHT system and possibly about as hard to find.

Dynaudio, B&W, Linn. European more expensive is better placebo effect. Mediocre and overpriced at best.

Clay, choosing a speaker is like choosing a religion. Everyone has their favorite above all else, but it only matters what you like. Take any suggestion as something to which you should listen, not necessarily buy. And don't let someone tell you that you shouldn't buy a brand. PSBs, Paradigms, etc, do have really great products. I'd certainly put the Synchrony up against Dynaudios any day. I think the Revel Studio line is extraordinary if you like the sound.

I do find that European speakers really don't offer nearly the value of American or Canadian speakers, for a lot of reasons, so even though your budget is very healthy, I think you'll more likely find a winner on this side of the pond. BUT, it doesn't cost anything to audition. Canadian speakers are more like European speakers than American speakers, and they generally have deeper, more powerful bass and center/rears that aren't as costly for the performance compared to their Euro counterparts. I'd take PSB Synchrony speakers over most any of the European speakers I've heard under about $20K, but they're probably just too inexpensive for what you're doing as there are certainly better speakers out there than Synchrony at $4500/pr.

As for budget, personally, if I had $60K to spend, I would to it this way:

$7500 for HD projector, motorized screen
$2500 for day time LCD panel
$10,000 for amp/preamp
$2500 *max* for surge, cables, adaptors, brackets, misc
$7500 for subwoofers
$30K for speakers

As a way different alternative, NHT has a full powered system coming next month (still, I think) that's designed to be hidden that is just amazing and is $45K for all the speakers, DSP, cables, subwoofers and, oh, about 5500W of power. Add $5000 for a preamp, $2500 for an LCD, $7500 for PJ/Screen. I'm sure there's enough discount in there to handle any misc expenses including some modest room treatment.

Another alternative is the Phase Tech dARTS system which is another fully active digital system, but I don't think it's quite in the same league as the bigger NHT system and possibly about as hard to find.

Keep in mind that Alimentall is a NHT salesman and goes around these fora promoting NHT speakers like crazy (as well as putting down other speakers he has never even heard before in the process). You should know that before taking his advice on buying NHT speakers...

Do a search on Wilson speakers in this fora if you would like to see some of his more recent thread hijackings...

BTW, I recommend you check out Wilson speakers as well. I own them and absolutely love them, but I think the price point for a 5.1 setup on the Dynaudios could work out better for you in your price range. If I had to work with a lower price range, I would have gotten the Dynaudios. The Confidence C1s were the 2nd best sounding speakers at HE2007 IMO (Watt Puppy 8s were the best sounding IMO... That's why I bought them ;)). Considering the price difference, you get a lot of performance for the price of those C1s. The C4s are similar measurement wise (you can look them up on the Soundstage website and see how they measure... Very flat with some bass boost - the C1s are completely flat).

Don't let the NHT salesman fool you. He has a lot of harsh opinions about speakers he has never heard.

Here are the Dynaudio Confidence C4 NRC measurements:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/

Keep in mind that Alimentall is a NHT salesman and goes around these fora promoting NHT speakers like crazy (as well as putting down other speakers he has never even heard before in the process). You should know that before taking his advice on buying NHT speakers...

Don't let the NHT salesman fool you. He has a lot of harsh opinions about speakers he has never heard.

I didn't advise him to buy NHT speakers. I advised him to listen around before deciding on any one brand of speaker. I think he should listen to Dynaudio and Wilson if he has the chance. And anything else in the range of what he desires.

There are lots of measurable and/or design reasons to "put down" a lot of ridiculously expensive speakers. FWIW, I highly approve of the Revel Studio2 which I don't sell. It's a near perfect design for an analog speaker.

Besides, I was just poking fun at Peter's comment that everything Canadian is mediocre. It's just as easy to say that everything European is mediocre for the price. And much of it is just plain mediocre. Still worth a listen, as long as you don't get taken up by overdone marketing brochures.

Here are the PSB T6 measurements for 1/3rd the price :)

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/psb_platinum_t6/

The PSBs don't have the upper midrange/lower treble distortion either ;)


Keep in mind, I wouldn't put T6s in a $60K system, but everyone has their own POV on what a speaker should sound like. Q and I differ quite a bit and I am a big stickler on value, where as he is not. Measurements are only a good way of looking for defects you should be able to hear, but may not have the ear (yet) to decipher easily and reliably. It isn't a good way of knowing whether you'll like a speaker.

Control. Far from trivial... The larger the system , the more difficult it is to control. Most of the so-called Universal Remote fail miserably in automating a fairly complicated system. Budget at least $3,000 for control.
.

I agree with Frantz on everything except this. We use the ~$100 MX500 (plus IR repeater) with many of our systems and it does everything important that a $3000 remote will. *As long as* there are discrete codes for all of the products (on/off, input, etc) and there are no anomalies (has problems with InFocus IN series), it will do one button operation of the system, including dimming lights and what not. But even so, you can get a really pretty exotic remote control for under $1000 with wireless capabilities and system "diagnostic" capabilities. Unless you're controlling the entire house, $1000 is a plenty big budget for a remote system.

We're finding that every generation of product works better and the systems are easier, even the really expensive ones. Not much complicated about a PJ, a preamp, a satellite, an HD-DVD/BD player!

I can confidently say that not all things canadian are mediocre!

Many things from south Fla are though :D

Here are the PSB T6 measurements for 1/3rd the price :)

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/psb_platinum_t6/

The PSBs don't have the upper midrange/lower treble distortion either ;)


Keep in mind, I wouldn't put T6s in a $60K system, but everyone has their own POV on what a speaker should sound like. Q and I differ quite a bit and I am a big stickler on value, where as he is not. Measurements are only a good way of looking for defects you should be able to hear, but may not have the ear (yet) to decipher easily and reliably. It isn't a good way of knowing whether you'll like a speaker.

Measurements are a starting point, not an end point. Lots of speakers measure similarly, yet they sound quite different. That is why demoing is essential. Something you have not done with some speakers you have unfairly criticized in the past.

As far as value is concerned, you can only determine what is of "value" to you, not to me. If people "value" different things, as you and I do, then claiming "I am not a big stickler on value," is erroneous propaganda only intended to sway the original poster to your point of view. If you value saving money by spending it on speakers that don't sound as great as other speakers, that is what you value. You might be getting good "bang for your buck," but there is much better sound out there. I value getting the best sound quality and paying what I have to pay to get that sound quality. I pay a premium for that sound quality, but to me it is worth it. When I sit back, close my eyes and the event is occurring in my listening room, the money spent becomes irrelevant...

Life is too short for mediocrity.

BTW, have you demoed the Dynaudio C4? Have you demoed the C1?

BTW, I would highly recommend the Logitech remotes. They are practically automatic in their setup. Anything that doesn't automatically setup you can program in yourself very easily. Anything you can't program in easily (I only had problems with one item myself), you call in and they help you do it over the phone (the button database is online, so they can acess it and hand program it until it works correctly).

Working with the Logitech remote has been a pleasure.

I'm using the 890 (it is both wireless, so you can keep the equipment in another room or a closet, and infrared).

Logitech Remotes (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/remotes/universal_remotes/&cl=us,en)

Measurements are a starting point, not an end point. Lots of speakers measure similarly, yet they sound quite different. That is why demoing is essential. Something you have not done with some speakers you have unfairly criticized in the past.

The speakers I have "unfairly criticized" had very problematic measurements and/or design. I never said they didn't or wouldn't sound good to many people. There is a difference between "good sound" and transparency. Half the people want a "good sounding" speaker and the other half want one that does the least damage to the sound. One adds to the sound, the other attempts not add to or harm it. Different things.

If people "value" different things, as you and I do, then claiming "I am not a big stickler on value," is erroneous propaganda only intended to sway the original poster to your point of view.

Well, you kind of started with the "sway the OP your way" act first.

BTW, have you demoed the Dynaudio C4? Have you demoed the C1?

No, but I have some of the lesser models and they were quite good. I didn't think they were a great *value* given the price, but very good. There are bad overpriced speakers, good overpriced speakers, bad high value speakers and good high value speakers. I think the Dynaudios fit into the "good overpriced speaker" category, which makes it a whole lot better than many other products. IMO. But if I were shopping, I'd listen to them all over again.

The more you listen, the better off you are. I listen to a lot of speakers. Just not all of them. And unlike many reviewers, I'm pickier about expensive speakers than about inexpensive speakers. Reviewers seem to think that the more expensive a speaker is, the less evil they should speak of them. IMO, that's assbackwards. The more expensive the speaker, the more you should expect. That's certainly a good mantra for auditioning.

No, but I have some of the lesser models and they were quite good. I didn't think they were a great *value* given the price, but very good. There are bad overpriced speakers, good overpriced speakers, bad high value speakers and good high value speakers. I think the Dynaudios fit into the "good overpriced speaker" category, which makes it a whole lot better than many other products. IMO. But if I were shopping, I'd listen to them all over again.

Here we go again... Alimentall determining both what other people should or should not value as well as determining the value of speakers without having listened to the actual speakers in question.

The more you listen, the better off you are. I listen to a lot of speakers. Just not all of them. And unlike many reviewers, I'm pickier about expensive speakers than about inexpensive speakers. Reviewers seem to think that the more expensive a speaker is, the less evil they should speak of them. IMO, that's assbackwards. The more expensive the speaker, the more you should expect. That's certainly a good mantra for auditioning.

This really has nothing to do with anything, since you haven't actually heard the Dynaudio speakers.

I agree about demoing though. It is best to demo as much as possible. That is how I found my favorite speakers.

Here we go again... Alimentall determining both what other people should or should not value as well as determining the value of speakers without having listened to the actual speakers in question.

No, that's me saying that I've heard Dynaudios and liked them, except for the price. Now, they might be better at exotica or they may just be expensive all the way around. Don't see to many Dynaudio dealers around here. They've pitched me a few times over the years, but they just aren't what I was seeking, but they also weren't *that* far off. Keep in mind that European speakers face steep economic challenges because it is very expensive to build product in Europe, let alone get it here. Even when they build it in China, it comes in pretty expensive. Europeans pay a lot more for their audio gear than we do, or at least, they have in the past. The weak dollar isn't helping.

Anyway, you don't hear me harping on the fact that you recommended Wilsons. If I were shopping, I'd go listen to Wilsons if they were available. You just seem to dislike the idea that someone would find something they like that is less exensive that another option. Or something. Or maybe you just don't like me. Either way, it's not particularly helpful to the OP.

BTW, I'll give you an example. The NHT OutdoorOne is built in England, probably helping them get favorable entrance into the EU. But it has gone up from $400/pr to $650/pr just in the last 2-3 years. At $400, it was a great bargain. Okay at $500, but $650? Yikes. I had some $2000/pr Mission speakers traded in and they weighed less than our $1000/pr speakers with very thin MDF and we had to sell them for $400/pr and we got that because of the maple finish. They couldn't compete with our $500/pr American bookshelf speakers! They were very highly thought of in the UK press. I had hoped to get *at least* $800 out of them, but simply couldn't. Now, if they had B&W's name, maybe. But just on quality alone? No one wanted them. Took me almost two years to sell them. I could recount that story a dozen times with different Euro brands. And again, just pointing out how ridiculous Peter's Canadian statement is. Canadian brands sell very nicely used because they were a good value at the start.

No, that's me saying that I've heard Dynaudios and liked them, except for the price.

So you have heard the Dynaudio Confidence C4 and C1?

You just seem to dislike the idea that someone would find something they like that is less exensive that another option.

Actually I believe different people can hear different things from the same speaker because of how our brains process signals differently. So, it makes a lot of sense to me that different people might like different speakers intrinsically. This also makes measurements only partially useful, since a combination of measurements that aren't quite flat or "considered objectively good" may sound "better" to some people and "not better" to others. I believe you had mentioned that Paul Barton (PSB Speakers) had said something about people's preferences and flat frequency responses, the information of which was arrived at through his testing work with Dr. Floyd Toole (something along the lines of, their testing showed that not everyone prefers a completely flat frequency response).

I think the best bet for the OP is to go out and demo all the suggestions and figure out what sounds most real to him out of the choices given. Consequently, because people hear things differently, it wouldn't make any of our preferences incorrect if he found them lacking in "authenticity."

BTW, for the original poster (OP), here is another speaker to add to your list: Focal Electra 1037 Be (http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/707focal/). They have surrounds and a center available for that series as well.

So you have heard the Dynaudio Confidence C4 and C1?

I already said that I hadn't, though I can tell you I don't like the idea of the design of the C4 at all. I really generally dislike D'Appolito designs. To me, that is the main problem with the PSB T8. But add in dual tweeters and first order design? Yikes, that's a recipe for massive acoustic problems.

As for the rest of your commentary above, I pretty much agree. I just don't know why you think you need to devalue my opinions.

I'll see your Focals and raise you the Joseph Audio Pearls and/or Thiel 3.7s. My only caution about the Focals is that they not only sound bright, they measure bright, so you have to have a very well damped room and a taste for a brighter, livelier treble than average. They also get unkempt more easily at high volumes than many speakers.

As for the rest of your commentary above, I pretty much agree. I just don't know why you think you need to devalue my opinions.

That's easy, because all too often I have seen you devalue one speaker in order to promote the NHT, et al., despite never having heard the speaker in question. I have become hardened and skeptical of your shares because of those past experiences. Sorry if I was overreacting.

If you agree with my other points, then your dislike for a specific design (e.g., D'Appolito), doesn't mean that design won't sound different (possibly better) to different individuals than another design you do prefer.

As a case and point, my friend who went with me to HE2007 didn't like the sound of the Confidence C1 at all and had a completely different reaction than mine. As another case and point, I have another friend who apparently doesn't hear soundstaging as more than two dimensions, so his judgements of speaker quality seem to have an entirely different perspective than my own as someone who does hear soundstaging as more than two dimensions.

I like the Joseph Audios as well, especially the cheaper models that I heard at HE2007. They would make a great surround setup for their pricings (my friend listed above who didn't like the C1s has a Joseph Audio surround setup). I've never heard the Thiels but I have heard great things about those as well... Doesn't hurt to demo as many as possible (unfortunately, demoing Joseph Audio speakers is difficult because there aren't many dealers).

That's easy, because all too often I have seen you devalue one speaker in order to promote the NHT, et al., despite never having heard the speaker in question. I have become hardened and skeptical of your shares because of those past experiences. Sorry if I was overreacting.

Well, my opinions are just my own, but there are lots of very well marketed products that get an "unfair" share of the pie vs a lot of small companies that bust their butts to put out very high quality products. And some stuff is just wacky. I "promote" stuff like Revel or NHT or other brands that don't get mentioned by many audiophiles, other because they're too "bland" or because they're too affordable or whatever. It's not so much "promotion" as just putting in another option. The only time I warn people about something is if I think the product is obviously overpriced or has serious audible or measurable flaws (or "characteristics"). And even then, if they like it, they like it. People told me that my Jetta was going to be unreliable and I bought it anyway and it served me faithfully for 130K+ miles and 12 years with only $1000 in repair/service after 100K. Just because someone has a bad opinion of something doesn't mean I'm going to agree, but it was something that I considered. Fortunately, they were wrong, at least with my car and it was my best auto purchase ever. I guess I just feel like I am a very good judge of advice and way it accordingly, so I don't worry about how people will use or misuse mine. I mean, I hope I don't have that kind of Jedi mind control........

If you agree with my other points, then your dislike for a specific design (e.g., D'Appolito), doesn't mean that design won't sound different (possibly better) to different individuals than another design you do prefer.

That's absolutely true. It's just that, to me, D'Appolito designs don't sound right and I can't think of an instance where I've preferred a D'Appolito design to anything else. I'm fairly sure that one of the reasons I prefer the new PSB Synchrony is the single midrange driver. It just sounds more natural to me. I never liked the NHT D'Appolito models quite as much as the similar models that had only a single midrange. But they sold well purely on value. PSB's $600 Alpha T tower D'Appolitio design doesn't sound as good as the $275/pr Alphas with just a single driver. They just play louder.

Purely on things that I don't sell, if I had that budget, I'd probably get an Anthem preamp/amp setup, Revel Studios all around, Revel subs possibly, a 1080p DLP PJ, like Sharp.

I want to thank everyone that replied. I have my speaker selection narrowed too 2 and will listen to both before buying.

Every single part of the system I am buying came from your posts. I will not list them so I do not insult anyone that posted.

I will post the entire system with my thoughts after a month of burn in.

The major thing I learned and had not planned for is room acoustics. I have a feeling any system will sound better if that is included.

I knew I could count on Net folks for help again thank you.

I want to thank everyone that replied. I have my speaker selection narrowed too 2 and will listen to both before buying.

Every single part of the system I am buying came from your posts. I will not list them so I do not insult anyone that posted.

I will post the entire system with my thoughts after a month of burn in.

The major thing I learned and had not planned for is room acoustics. I have a feeling any system will sound better if that is included.

I knew I could count on Net folks for help again thank you.

Enjoy!