I just found this on the digital bits, enjoy:

How in the world does Toshiba think it's ever going to make any money from the HD-DVD format? I mean, seriously.

You may have heard by now that Toshiba has made pre-Black Friday arrangements with Wal-Mart to effectively dump its HD-A2 HD-DVD player starting this Friday (this weekend only) for just $98.87. You may also have heard that Best Buy has followed suit. Supplies are limited, of course, and the offer is apparently not valid in some parts of the country that have state anti-dumping laws.

Wikipedia defines dumping as "the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price which is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its costs of production." Toshiba's move isn't really anti-competitive, because there are no U.S. manufacturers making HD-DVD players. But it's that "below its costs of production" part that applies in this case. The HD-A2 arrived in the States with an original MSRP of $499.99. Now, Toshiba is letting it go for just $99. There's no way the player cost less than $100 to manufacturer. Just. No. Way.

You might wonder: How can Toshiba possibly have enough HD-A2s left to sell at just $99 at large, nationwide retailers? Simple. It's because they didn't sell originally, so plenty of stores still have them sitting on shelves, gathering dust. Toshiba is eager to clear them all out at this point, and Wal-Mart and Best Buy are happy to help.

Clearly, the HD-DVD camp understands that low price is really the only card they have left to play in this format war. Porn hasn't won the war for them as predicted, nor have online bells and whistles, or combo discs/players. The obvious question would be: Why in the world would any other hardware manufacturer want to join Toshiba's foolhardy strategy of driving player prices down to next to nothing? It's no accident that not a single other major manufacturer has released a stand-alone HD-DVD player (and no, the Venturer doesn't count). Given how dramatically Toshiba has slashed prices on HD-DVD players over the last year, you have to wonder how long they can keep losing money.

Forget for a moment that the HD-A2 isn't capable of delivering full 1080p video - that doesn't matter. Why? Because anyone who is so price sensitive that they wait until a high-def player price hits $99 to buy one isn't likely to have an HDTV set yet. Being super bargain shoppers, they aren't likely to want to pay $30 for an HD-DVD movie either. I'd bet many of the people who jump on this sale will either be using them primarily as upconverting DVD players, or they're already diehard HD-DVD supporters and are buying them as second players. For those regular consumers who take the bait, I wonder how they'll feel when they realize they can't play those big Disney titles in the "blu" boxes due next week.

Speaking of which... a couple weeks ago, when Disney and Sony launched the successful strategy of counter-selling their Blu-ray software titles 2 for 1 the same week Paramount and DreamWorks released Transformers on HD-DVD, we got a few e-mails from HD-DVD fans telling us how lame that was. Well, consider this: Is it any accident that Toshiba didn't wait for Black Friday to sell their $99 HD-DVD player, instead carefully planning the 3-day sale for the weekend before Disney and Pixar release Cars, Ratatouille and Pixar Short Films Collection on Blu-ray? Not a chance, folks. So Toshiba is slashing HD-DVD hardware prices to counteract the release of blockbuster Blu-ray software. What does that tell you about the viability of HD-DVD going into a fourth quarter that, by all accounts, is make or break for the format? (Especially with Warner Home Video now hinting that they're looking at the fourth quarter to "reevaluate" their dual format support)

Hey - there's no doubt that thousands of eager consumers will get a deal on cheap hardware this weekend. But it still isn't going to be the format war winner for HD-DVD that some would like to believe. On the contrary, it means that Toshiba is getting desperate... and is going even more deeply into the red with this format. Given the strength of their rhetoric this week, it's a safe bet that the Blu-ray camp will continue to press their advantage in the fourth quarter, and start turning up the heat on HD-DVD in the weeks and months ahead.

It boggles the mind to think that any reasonable person can still believe at this point that the HD-DVD format represents a viable long-term business for Hollywood. Keep in mind, contrary to the opinions of some online, we don't think HD-DVD is a bad format at all. If it were the only HD format around, we'd be all over it here at The Bits. But Toshiba is effectively paying studios to support it, and now they're practically giving the hardware and software away. Do you suppose we'll see free HD-DVD player offers in Cracker Jacks and cereal boxes next? $50 players? $25 players?

Experienced fighter pilots will tell you that when you dive your aircraft at the deck, you very quickly run out of maneuvering room. It seems like the ground's coming up awfully fast for HD-DVD.

Back with more on Blu-ray Fest later this afternoon. Stay tuned...

Bill Hunt bashes HD DVD?!? I'm shocked!

and yet if Sony did this strategy, he'd praise it as a genius move.

What he said makes sense........no way toshiba would want to lose that kind of money on a player unless no one wanted them for the original price.


Plus all the hd dvd owners are going to go get one of these players for a second for another room before a regular consumer that doesn't have one has a chance....

/Flame suit on...


This article could be right or wrong depending on a few key facts.


How many players does Walmart have to sell? And how long will they be selling them for 98$?

Until then... I think it's futile to scream one way or the other.... :rolleyes:

If we hadnt heard anything from Bill Hunt I would be worried.

The timing wouldnt been right for Bill to go neutral ;)

All it is that they are trying to slow down the juggernaut that is now becoming Blu-Ray. They are trying to take away sales from this weeks Spider-Man 3/trilogy release and also next week's Pixar releases in Ratatouille, Cars & Pixar Shorts. It is time for Toshiba to give it all its got and if they can't do it now they won't be able to do it ever. The 4th qt. will very indicative about how long this format war will last. Blu-Ray has all the strong cards right now and is about to have a full house. TIme is up Toshiba give up and start making Blu-Ray players for cheap.

/Flame suit on...


This article could be right or wrong depending on a few key facts.


How many players does Walmart have to sell? And how long will they be selling them for 98$?

Until then... I think it's futile to scream one way or the other.... :rolleyes:

Well seeing that best buy is already out of them I doubt walmart has enough to sell that would have enough impact to hurt blu.....60% of these players will be bought by those that already have one and they want a second one.....so say 40% of the 50,000 go to new hd dvd customers....that means 20,000 new hd dvd customer's....wow tomorrow blu ray will have how many new blu owners from the new ps3/?

how long did it take dvd players to reach the $99 range?

just curious.

lmao Bill's too much. omg evil Toshiba giving the peeps HD players for under $100 how evilllll....

how long did it take dvd players to reach the $99 range?

just curious.

Much longer but they also started out higher than the HD-A1.

No surprise that Toshiba is willing to sell their remaining HD-A2 players at such a low price and this has basically been their strategy since the beginning of this format war. As for how much it will really affect the format war only time will tell.

how long did it take dvd players to reach the $99 range?

just curious.

At least 5 years.

What he said makes sense........no way toshiba would want to lose that kind of money on a player unless no one wanted them for the original price.


Plus all the hd dvd owners are going to go get one of these players for a second for another room before a regular consumer that doesn't have one has a chance....

same thing can be said for the ps3.... yet i dont see bill bashing sony for taking massive losses for every ps3 sold.

Wow, a whole lotta .. nothing.

same thing can be said for the ps3.... yet i dont see bill bashing sony for taking massive losses for every ps3 sold.

That is different since they are different sku's...Just like we don't say the A2 and the A20 or the A20x are the same player...They are HD DVD players but aren't the same...they have different sku's...

That is like the PS3...they are PS3's but are different and have different sku's

he is actualyl kidna of right though, Toshiba IS the only company maign hd dvd player. how are they gonan convince them into making deck as cheak as $199. it does seem liek a clearence sale to me.

I agree with this line...

" I'd bet many of the people who jump on this sale will either be using them primarily as upconverting DVD players, or they're already diehard HD-DVD supporters and are buying them as second players. "

The rest feels like sour grapes...

At least 5 years.

Does anyone really believe Toshiba is making money at these prices? Add to it they are still giving away 5 movies with the player. That's not a long term business strategy. There only hope to regain anything is to get enough of these giveaways in the home to sell enough software for royalty collection. The problem is that anyone who buys a $99 player is going to balk at $25 to $35 discs. They'll be there for their freebies, but don't count on them gobbling up the software at those prices.

Toshiba did not have to resort to these measures when they were competing with DIVX because it was universally hated among early adopters. Does anyone really think they want to give hardware only a year and a half into the war?

He makes some good points and some other not so good points. :D

I wouldn't call it bashing at all. I would call it common sense.

Does anyone really believe Toshiba is making money at these prices? Add to it they are still giving away 5 movies with the player. That's not a long term business strategy. There only hope to regain anything is to get enough of these giveaways in the home to sell enough software for royalty collection.?

Sounds like a long term stragety to me...

Ok, am I the only one that sees the first part of the article as a bit hypocritical?

I'm a blu-supporter with a ps3, but the ps3 has been sold at a loss since day 1, why hasn't Bill Hunt taken them to task for the same thing Toshiba is doing? Both are trying to acquire the largest audience to win the movie format wars. It may be a desperation move, but I'm not sure why it's invalid.

I think this is a nice try on Toshiba's part since this isn't a a permanent price change but a "clearance" price to remove all inventory. The second part of the article I do agree with, I doubt people who pick this up are going to save HD-DVD by buying lots of HDM.

-Splints

Much longer but they also started out higher than the HD-A1.

You mean like $1000 for XA1?

Does Toshiba's motivation even matter?

I disagree with all of these comments about 'desperation' or "the players wouldn't sell, so they dropped the price"... but even if true... who cares?

Ultimately, there are hundreds/thousands of folks who will have a brand-new A2 tomorrow. And it's only Nov. 2. There will be *plenty* of other inexpensive opportunities to get an HD DVD player before the end of the year. (We already know about the $169 A3s at Sears.)

Toshiba is getting players out there at a low price, with some high-profile advertising via Wal-Mart, and people are buying them. The "whys" of it all really don't matter as long as people buy the players (and, presumably, some HD DVDs to go with it).

Hunt and his ilk can sit around crying desperation all they want. Meanwhile, watch the HD DVD players start flying off the shelves...

I'm still amazed that a movie/DVD site is trying to spin a $98 HD player as *bad news*. :confused: I guess Toshiba should have sent more hot chicks in tight T-shirts over to chat with Bill, ala the BDA. ???

same thing can be said for the ps3.... yet i dont see bill bashing sony for taking massive losses for every ps3 sold.

The PS3 is a one-of-a-kind product. Other CE companies are making money with BD players.

How much does this fire sale affect the sales of the third-generation players? It'll be interesting to see.

Can you imagine what will happen if walmart is able to sell the majority of the 2 million they ordered? Wow.

Ok, am I the only one that sees the first part of the article as a bit hypocritical?

I'm a blu-supporter with a ps3, but the ps3 has been sold at a loss since day 1, why hasn't Bill Hunt taken them to task for the same thing Toshiba is doing? Both are trying to acquire the largest audience to win the movie format wars. It may be a desperation move, but I'm not sure why it's invalid.

I think this is a nice try on Toshiba's part since this isn't a a permanent price change but a "clearance" price to remove all inventory. The second part of the article I do agree with, I doubt people who pick this up are going to save HD-DVD by buying lots of HDM.

-Splints

I think it gets back to the fact that a standalone toshiba hd-dvd player is a completely different animal than a PS3. Consoles have LONG had a history of being sold at a loss cause the game title revenue would make up for it in the long run. Pure, standalone CE players are in a different category entirely.

Sounds like a long term stragety to me...

The whole point is that anyone who can barely afford a $99 player is going to balk at the software prices they see compared to $5 to $15 DVD titles that populate Walmart shelves.

Sony loses money on the PS3 but they make the money back because they get a cut of every game sold on the console. How does toshiba make money to cover their losses on hardware?

Can you imagine what will happen if walmart is able to sell the majority of the 2 million they ordered? Wow.

Okay let's see proof that it was 2 million ordered. Very hard to believe. I would guess 50k to 60k max.

If Toshiba was stupid enough to build two million units before orders were made then they need a new CEO.

That is different since they are different sku's...Just like we don't say the A2 and the A20 or the A20x are the same player...They are HD DVD players but aren't the same...they have different sku's...

That is like the PS3...they are PS3's but are different and have different sku's

Ah, no. The A20 and this A20x (whatever the heck that is) would definitely be the same player. A PS3 is a PS3. An A2 is an A2, and an A20 is an A20. Model numbers are model numbers, not SKU's.

Sony loses money on the PS3 but they make the money back because they get a cut of every game sold on the console. How does toshiba make money to cover their losses on hardware?

Toshiba along with WB hold many DVD and HD DVD patents. That's why WHV has not pulled the plug on HD DVD yet is because they stand to lose patent revenue.

I wonder if the BDA is offering to share in patent revenue stream so the sting would not be so great if HD DVD never reaches mass adoption.

Can you imagine what will happen if walmart is able to sell the majority of the 2 million they ordered? Wow.

2 million give me a break. Toshiba probably didn't even manufacture 200,000 what makes you tihnk they would have 2 million unit of a discontinued model. Unless they didn't sell all of them at prices of $400-$300.

you know, i've jumped on here to defend bill in principle in the past, particularly in the case of his big coming-out-party editorial, which i thought people blew out of proportion. but this is getting tired. i also really used to enjoy the bits a lot more. but this is really a far cry from "we love both formats, but only blu ray can win and we want the war to end, so we endorse blu ray." now no hd-dvd news item is complete without bill editorializing about how stupid it is, how it highlights the hd-dvd format's weaknesses or how it spells doom for the hd-dvd camp. i didn't initially think he was as bad as a lot of people said he was, but when news hits and you know what someone is going to say about it in advance, no matter what it is, it's a sure sign that that person has lost perspective. he's going to believe what he's going to believe, and new turns of events won't change that, he'll just interpret them the way he wants to.

i'm an hd-dvd owner, and i would very much like to get on the blu-ray bandwagon, but the price and the selection of movies just haven't caught up to where they need to be for me to reach a critical mass of interest in the format. when sony can show me a single game for the ps3 that i really want to play, i'll jump at the opportunity to get in on some blu-ray then, something i consider an inevitability, just not now. so it's not like i'm not rooting for bigger and better things from the format, and i do think it'll "win" the format war (if you want to call it that at this point) eventually, but i'm just getting tired of each digitalbits.com update being a frenzied-sounding tirade about the death of hd-dvd. when there are actual updates, that is. these days it's radio silence for a week at a time then the next headline is always "hey, we're back!" followed by "me and jahnke had this awesome road trip to tahoe. here's our picture album! look, a diner LOL!" and then "HD-DVD released all these new titles today. but don't you think they could've been better. back with some new stuff about wicked awesome blu-ray in a few days!"

Okay let's see proof that it was 2 million ordered. Very hard to believe. I would guess 50k to 60k max.

HAHA 2million were not ordered....that is a silly fanboy's dream, especially since hd dvd had a goal of 1.5million then changed it to 1million players by the end of this year. So we all know there are about 250,000 of them out there right now......

So you honestly think that toshiba made 2million of them at a 499MSRP and are now selling those 2million at 99? Say it costs them 250 to make those...that means toshiba is willing to lose 500 million dollars by doing this?

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.

Cut the crap.. seriously... you're no better than them if you act like that...

Cut the crap.. seriously... you're no better than them if you act like that...

Don't fear the truth just because your neutral.

you know, i've jumped on here to defend bill in principle in the past, particularly in the case of his big coming-out-party editorial, which i thought people blew out of proportion. but this is getting tired. i also really used to enjoy the bits a lot more. but this is really a far cry from "we love both formats, but only blu ray can win and we want the war to end, so we endorse blu ray." now no hd-dvd news item is complete without bill editorializing about how stupid it is, how it highlights the hd-dvd format's weaknesses or how it spells doom for the hd-dvd camp. i didn't initially think he was as bad as a lot of people said he was, but when news hits and you know what someone is going to say about it in advance, no matter what it is, it's a sure sign that that person has lost perspective. he's going to believe what he's going to believe, and new turns of events won't change that, he'll just interpret them the way he wants to.

i'm an hd-dvd owner, and i would very much like to get on the blu-ray bandwagon, but the price and the selection of movies just haven't caught up to where they need to be for me to reach a critical mass of interest in the format. when sony can show me a single game for the ps3 that i really want to play, i'll jump at the opportunity to get in on some blu-ray then, something i consider an inevitability, just not now. so it's not like i'm not rooting for bigger and better things from the format, and i do think it'll "win" the format war (if you want to call it that at this point) eventually, but i'm just getting tired of each digitalbits.com update being a frenzied-sounding tirade about the death of hd-dvd. when there are actual updates, that is. these days it's radio silence for a week at a time then the next headline is always "hey, we're back!" followed by "me and jahnke had this awesome road trip to tahoe. here's our picture album! look, a diner LOL!" and then "HD-DVD released all these new titles today. but don't you think they could've been better. back with some new stuff about wicked awesome blu-ray in a few days!"


Sorry about not being able to afford Blu yet, but it is not just the players that are expensive. Software is high priced also and the content providers for both sides are not going to abandon it any time soon. If your are struggling to get into BD because of player price, then maybe you should hold off on some HD DVD purchases and just use Netflix or BBonline to save some cash for the BD player.

Does anyone really believe Toshiba is making money at these prices? Add to it they are still giving away 5 movies with the player. That's not a long term business strategy. There only hope to regain anything is to get enough of these giveaways in the home to sell enough software for royalty collection. Do you also have this opinion about Sony and the PS3? Maybe you should take a look at the losses that Sony's gaming division reported last week.

Who is Bill Hunt? is he related to Ethan Hunt the guy in Mission Impossible? Oh o another agent....all he said is speculation there is no difference for what is being discuss in this forum. Blu boys hates toshiba now because their Bluray camp can't deliver like toshiba is doing.


Peter.
*****ATTN BLURAY*****IF YOU CAN NOT BEAT THEM JOIN THEM

Sorry about not being able to afford Blu yet, but it is not just the players that are expensive. Software is high priced also and the content providers for both sides are not going to abandon it any time soon. If your are struggling to get into BD because of player price, then maybe you should hold off on some HD DVD purchases and just use Netflix or BBonline to save some cash for the BD player.

I haven't purchased any HD DVD titles and am exclusively renting them from Netflix. My problem is I can't afford to purchase a bluray player at those expensive prices and being a gamer, PS3 doesn't look too enticing in that respect either. :mad:

Cut the magic and glitter and release an affordable blu-ray standalone. $199 sounds about right. :)

If your are struggling to get into BD because of player price, then maybe you should hold off on some HD DVD purchases and just use Netflix or BBonline to save some cash for the BD player.

def. i'm not running around buying a bunch of hd-dvds. i'm sticking with netflix and getting plenty of a fix that way. i'm just struggling b/c if i'm going to go blu anytime soon, it's going to be with ps3 and that continues to look like a very tenuous purchase. but if mgs4 and ffx13 live up to the hype and stay exclusive, it's gonna just be a foregone conclusion that i need a ps3. in the meantime i'm about nine billion hours away from the end of ffx12, so i'm tided over. it's just tough b/c i promised myself i'd only buy one console this time around (i'm not a big enough gamer anymore to justify more) and from an hd perspective, there's every reason in the world to buy a ps3, but from a gaming perspective, so far, there's every reason in the world to go with an xbox 360 and basically ignore the ps3. but they're really pushing the issue with those disappearing 60gb models, and i would want backward compatibility, so this holiday season i may crack.

Bill is wrong on many points in that article. Too many to go into individually.

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.

I shop with wal-mart and I have highspeed internet.

Smalling wal-mart shoppers is very rude. Don't need to be personal or talked
about wal mart shoppers in general, you dont have right. I am glad you love bluray so much but you don't have to smallish people who shop with wal mart.
:rolleyes:

and yet if Sony did this strategy, he'd praise it as a genius move.


Precisely. He is an idiot. Not because of his opinions, but because of how he expresses them.

I haven't purchased any HD DVD titles and am exclusively renting them from Netflix. My problem is I can't afford to purchase a bluray player at those expensive prices and being a gamer, PS3 doesn't look too enticing in that respect either. :mad:

Cut the magic and glitter and release an affordable blu-ray standalone. $199 sounds about right. :)


Give it time. It will get there just not this year. It took DVD 4 to 5 years to break the sub$100 range. Also let me add the Japanese CE companies were not to happy about DVD players falling that quickly in price. They had to do it because of the cheap Chinese players. Toshiba has decided to basically give away players but no other CE maker can compete with Toshiba at their cut throat prices so no else is making a player.

In this age of the race to the bottom consumerism, I think many people expect to purchase everything for next to nothing. Remember a lot of effort went into developing HD DVD and BD and at some point they need to start earning money. Toshiba decided to adopt the videogame model hoping to make up ground on patent royalties. The BD makers other than Sonys PS3 decided to make profits on their players. It has yet to be determined whose strategy will win.

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.

I rarely say anything like this, but you are a total idiot. I shop at walmart and have high speed intenet, and I would imagine there are many other people that do as well. Last I checked, they sell PCs, laptops, monitors, high speed modems, and many other things of that nature. As well as..........Blu Ray movies. Seriously, smack yourself later.

Who is Bill Hunt? is he related to Ethan Hunt the guy in Mission Impossible? Oh o another agent....all he said is speculation there is no difference for what is being discuss in this forum. Blu boys hates toshiba now because their Bluray camp can't deliver like toshiba is doing.


Peter.
*****ATTN BLURAY*****IF YOU CAN NOT BEAT THEM JOIN THEM

I like that, Mission Impossible- getting bluray to win the format war.

I rarely say anything like this, but you are a total idiot. I shop at walmart and have high speed intenet, and I would imagine there are many other people that do as well. Last I checked, they sell PCs, laptops, monitors, high speed modems, and many other things of that nature. As well as..........Blu Ray movies. Seriously, smack yourself later.


Forgive him, he is a blind fanboy.

I view bill hunts words as GOD himself I loved him from the start praises blu ray he knows from a personal perspective that blu ray itself is, "BEYOND HIGH DEF" the ability to go beyond 3D due to extra storage space. He has insider info that its a fire sale that toshiba is going out of business.....
Only folks in the MI6 know this and he is MI's most important agent...oops did I spill the beans?

I rarely say anything like this, but you are a total idiot. I shop at walmart and have high speed intenet, and I would imagine there are many other people that do as well. Last I checked, they sell PCs, laptops, monitors, high speed modems, and many other things of that nature. As well as..........Blu Ray movies. Seriously, smack yourself later.

Go whine & cry.

With the exception of Nintendo, videogame hardware is always sold at a loss until 3-5 years in, at which point manufacturing efficiency and cheaper parts allow the hardware producer to actually make a profit per system sold. Comparing the PS3 to the HD-DVD player is not comparing apples to apples.

Toshiba's strategy to try to undermine Blu-Ray is desperate. They have been out longer and still lose week by week in the Nielsen's. They almost literally have to give away players to even compete. Blu-Ray players are 4 to 5 times more expensive and still outsell HD-DVD software this whole year. These are the facts, no spin. I'll wait and see what impact of any this will have on HDM software sales. I would say it will just cause a blip in the system with these $99 HD-DVD players. Tomorrow's Nielsen's should be interesting.

Why do people care about what this guy says so much?

All I have to say on the subject is if BD had a similar sale, people would be saying how smart a move it was. Oh and lol at all the fanboys in this thread.

Blu-Ray players are 4 to 5 times more expensive

Thanks for the reminder. And HD-DVD players sell more standalones why again???????????????????

Oh yea, silly me, because of the price.

If you want to talk about giving away things, why don't you talk about Blu Ray giving away all of those Blu Ray titles when Transformers came out? Oh yea, thats right, selective memory I forgot.

Don't mean to be rude or anything but man, you should think before you speak das real.

Is Bill Hunt being paid off by the BDA? I used to think no, but now I'm beginning to change my mind.

Edit....
BTW, I agree with the poster that thought the Wal-Mart comments were offensive. All sorts of people from all walks of life shop at WM. Hasn't everyone been to a Wal-Mart?

I view bill hunts words as GOD himself I loved him from the start praises blu ray he knows from a personal perspective that blu ray itself is, "BEYOND HIGH DEF" the ability to go beyond 3D due to extra storage space. He has insider info that its a fire sale that toshiba is going out of business.....
Only folks in the MI6 know this and he is MI's most important agent...oops did I spill the beans?

:D You like the MI6 thing ha..now we are having fun.:D

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.My goodness... so petty. Grow up. If people want to support a format different to your liking, what exactly is your problem with that?

You are the reason my sig says what it says.;)



PS. Don't give the rest of us 49er fans a bad name. Go cheer for the Patriots.

PS. Don't give the rest of us 49er fans a bad name. Go cheer for the Patriots.

LOL:D exactly my thought.

I also am in the Bay Area.

Toshiba's strategy to try to undermine Blu-Ray is desperate. They have been out longer and still lose week by week in the Nielsen's. They almost literally have to give away players to even compete. Blu-Ray players are 4 to 5 times more expensive and still outsell HD-DVD software this whole year. These are the facts, no spin. I'll wait and see what impact of any this will have on HDM software sales. I would say it will just cause a blip in the system with these $99 HD-DVD players. Tomorrow's Nielsen's should be interesting.

I don't think the nielsen ratings are all that important, does it show the amount of HD titles being rented?

If Toshiba can get their foot in the door to your average household, that's good for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, and the only time Average Joe will jump on Blu-Ray is when it becomes affordable. This is a smart move by Toshiba.

Once players become affordable, then content will become the next all important thing, which will ultimately decide the format war unless they both co-exist.

Can you imagine what will happen if walmart is able to sell the majority of the 2 million they ordered? Wow.2 million they ordered?Somebody's living a rich fantasy life.:):)

I view bill hunts words as GOD himself I loved him from the start praises blu ray he knows from a personal perspective that blu ray itself is, "BEYOND HIGH DEF" the ability to go beyond 3D due to extra storage space. He has insider info that its a fire sale that toshiba is going out of business.....
Only folks in the MI6 know this and he is MI's most important agent...oops did I spill the beans?

I like bill and blu TTT

I used to read The Digital Bits.....I don't anymore....i don't like badly written journalism and selling out your journalistic neutrality....and it's obvious they sold out and are either getting lots of freebies or getting paid by someone.

The same goes for any site which turns into a fanboy site......I like neutrality and information...not forced to read inaccurate trash.....be it HD DVD or Blu Ray info....just give us the facts and don't trash the opposition.

Reading this and other threads is some real entertainment.
All of the BluRay fanboys like little Dutch boys trying to stick 20 fingers in the dyke while spinning like tops.

A sub $100 HDM player of any flavor is a big deal and a very smart move.
The only look on the faces of people who purchase these players is going to be a sh!t-eating\thank you God grin.

Reading this and other threads is some real entertainment.
All of the BluRay fanboys like little Dutch boys trying to stick 20 fingers in the dyke while spinning like tops.

A sub $100 HDM player of any flavor is a big deal and a very smart move.
The only look on the faces of people who purchase these players is going to be a sh!t-eating\thank you God grin.

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

BWAHAHHAHAHAHahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

LOL I was a Service Manager over at Ford a few years back and little do you know that Fords are just as unreliable as Kia except that Kia has a better warranty. There goes your analogy.

BWAHAHHAHAHAHahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know right. Somewhere that guy's English teacher is crying.

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

Are you feeling ok ?

When you get a little older you will learn that price doesn't always equal quality and just because it's expensive and well promoted it doesn't mean it's any good for you.

I would have thought people were more educated on these boards but it seems not.....it seems this format war has brought the worst out in people.

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

Roflcopters! Beyond High Defition! Sure! :rolleyes:

Roflcopters! Beyond High Defition! Sure! :rolleyes:

LOL......Maybe he was being sarcastic?

For his sake, I hope so.

Papa Smurf gave me a good laugh in that article. It's normal for people to get defensive when they're nervous. That's okay, we forgive you, Bill.

and yet if Sony did this strategy, he'd praise it as a genius move.

I have no idea who bill hunt is but he must not c the picture in front of him. The strategy is not for profit. It is for getting hd-dvd players in peoples homes and making hd-dvd more mainstream.

strategy is not for profit. It is for getting hd-dvd players in peoples homes and making hd-dvd more mainstream.

.......Which will mean more profit down the road:)

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

Dude fullhd is 1080p and both hd-dvd players and bd players r fullhd1080p.

Somebody's living a rich fantasy life.:):)

They did order 2 million for the 3800 walmarts stores in the usa.

you get what you pay for blu has a high price tag for a reason I rather pay 100k for a ford gt40 than pay 100 dollars for a kia.....blu is high end stuff with, 'BEYOND HIGH DEFITION" unlike HDDVd its just high def, but not beyond. :cool:

Wow..... you obviously have never taken a marketing course. There are two ways you create value in a product. You can either go for the cost cutting solution, or you opt for production differentiation. If you go with product differentiation, the difference can be real or perceived. I think all the die hard "I'm never buying X if Y wins" fanboys really need to let that soak in (hint: pay attention to the word 'perceived' as much as possible).

So, you go ahead and spend your 100k on a gt40. My Kia Sportage has worked flawlessly for nearly two years, while my in laws two ford models have been to the shop three times each.

All it is that they are trying to slow down the juggernaut that is now becoming Blu-Ray. They are trying to take away sales from this weeks Spider-Man 3/trilogy release and also next week's Pixar releases in Ratatouille, Cars & Pixar Shorts. It is time for Toshiba to give it all its got and if they can't do it now they won't be able to do it ever. The 4th qt. will very indicative about how long this format war will last. Blu-Ray has all the strong cards right now and is about to have a full house. TIme is up Toshiba give up and start making Blu-Ray players for cheap.

Those r kids movies. How old r u? Like 10

It strikes me that once Toshiba puts the $100 price out there it pretty much sets that price for the commodity HDDVD players. Now that people see that they can be had for $100 who is going to pay more - they will just wait until the price drops back to that level (they did it once they will do it again). Most folks buying in that price range aren't going to care that it's 1080i, that it's missing this feature or that feature or even if it is a close out item. What they will remember is that HDDVD players can be bought for $100. It seems to me that by dumping the old machines, they will freeze the market for HDDVD at the $100 level at least through the holidays.

Wow..... you obviously have never taken a marketing course. There are two ways you create value in a product. You can either go for the cost cutting solution, or you opt for production differentiation. If you go with product differentiation, the difference can be real or perceived. I think all the die hard "I'm never buying X if Y wins" fanboys really need to let that soak in (hint: pay attention to the word 'perceived' as much as possible).

So, you go ahead and spend your 100k on a gt40. My Kia Sportage has worked flawlessly for nearly two years, while my in laws two ford models have been to the shop three times each.

That guy was wrong anyway. He's confused the Ford GT and the original Le Mans winning Ford GT40 models. Ford does not own the rights to the name "GT40." Sorry, but I had to clarify this. :p

Now back to your originally scheduled program.

and yet if Sony did this strategy, he'd praise it as a genius move.

of course, just grin and shake your head at the sheep.

Blu-Ray software is consistently sold at half price, while hardware is kept fairly constant. Having HD DVD hardware sold at half price, while software is kept fairly constant, seems like a pretty legitimate strategy on the other side.

I only have an HD DVD player at the moment, but have enough interest in going neutral to take a look over here for big news once a week or so. If I saw a sale was coming for $100 Blu-Ray players, I'd almost definitely buy one. I have to assume that the flip side is true for quite a few Blu-Ray-only owners with this sale, so it seems like a pretty good idea -- and it gives new owners plenty of time to add titles like Bourne and Transformers to their holiday wish lists.

I can't wait to see the face of people when they buy those janky players that they have to boil discs, and also update their HD-DVD players with out internet access since these are for wal mart shoppers that probably don't have hi speed internet.

Yea, you tell 'em 49er fan!! Stupid Wal-mart shoppers with dial-up. With these asinine comments, you've even alienated many of the BR supporters you were hoping were going to jump on your bandwagon. Good on ya'..That is all...

Can somebody please post the pic of "Bill the Shill" at the Blu-Ray joint-handjob event with the blu-ray babes and cake?? That would sum up my opinion nicely.

Those r kids movies. How old r u? Like 10

Wrong. They are family films which always sell tons. Whether one thinks they are kid films is a matter of preference really. This war is a shame in a sense that HD DVD has the hardware pricing claim, but their media is $25-$35. Blu-Ray has most of the titles that appeal to the masses like Ratatouille and POTC and practically all the CE manufacturers behind it.

A good point is raised about selling too low because most all CE manufacturers look to make some profit with this next generation, however it has to happen at certain pace just like DVD did. Seems like this quarter will probably be the determining factor of this war. It might just be they both will co-exist with CE companies agreeing to make HD-DVD players only if it's a dual format player; like that they can still make a profit to their liking. Who knows what the future holds if that happens? You could have companies using either media interchangeably as they see fit.

Hunt has lost every single molecule of credibility he once had as a "journalist". Every time there is an HD DVD "event", he $#!ts all over it even though Blu-ray may have used the same tactics. Of course, he never mentions that Sony sells the PS3 at a loss in his recent rant. Toshiba is evil for selling the A2 for under a hundred bucks, but if a BD player sold for that amount, it would be the best deal in the history of consumer electronics.:rolleyes:

His rants have become more and more ridiculous to the point that they are insulting to format neutral individuals like myself. And to add insult to injury, after taking his big dump on HD DVD, he always comes back with a "we like HD DVD. We really do..." statement. What a jackass.

Hunt has lost every single molecule of credibility he once had as a "journalist".

Don't tell that to the Blu Fans.


I would be ashamed to have him supporting my format of liking due to the fact that he is obviously a dillusional, wishful thinking fanboy. Hec, he's worse than most Blu supporters on here, the AVS forums.

I honestly cant think of opinions I have less respect for then Bill Hunts. Every workd out of his mouth is paid for by Sony. He is a fool. Whats worse is he is a paid fool.

Some of you don't realise that most Americans prefer to over pay for everything like: Movies, Gas, Electronics, Cars, Food...etc.

I don't know of any American that loves to save money. Bill Bunt is right. American would rather pay $500 on a Blu-ray player than a $98 HD DVD player.




/sarcasm off.

on more thing I have to add.

CEs like Toshiba will make deals with Studio to share in the profits on movie sales to make up fo the loss on player sales. These kind of deals are made all the time in business.

Bill Hunt who is clearly a high school drop obvisouly doesnt get it.

on more thing I have to add.

CEs like Toshiba will make deals with Studio to share in the profits on movie sales to make up fo the loss on player sales. These kind of deals are made all the time in business.

Bill Hunt who is clearly a high school drop obvisouly doesnt get it.

With his mentality I even doubt he went to high school...:o

Someone posted earlier that bill,beat,bland where protesting in front of a walmart with signs like (Dont buy HD DUD) (microsoft is the devil) (HD DVD is crap)

Sadly Bill is losing even the most die-hard blu-ray boys.

how does he know they cost more than $100 to make??? has he even done any background checks on this? done some actual investigational work on the production costs of an A2?

every thing he said is a guess....

Ok, am I the only one that sees the first part of the article as a bit hypocritical?

I'm a blu-supporter with a ps3, but the ps3 has been sold at a loss since day 1, why hasn't Bill Hunt taken them to task for the same thing Toshiba is doing? Both are trying to acquire the largest audience to win the movie format wars. It may be a desperation move, but I'm not sure why it's invalid.

I think this is a nice try on Toshiba's part since this isn't a a permanent price change but a "clearance" price to remove all inventory. The second part of the article I do agree with, I doubt people who pick this up are going to save HD-DVD by buying lots of HDM.

-Splints

/agreed. This guy Bill Hunt is full of crap. He's obviously not smart enough to realize his own rhetoric could be thrown back at him.

What I find sickening is that people are so brand sensitive they're passing up a great deal. If the PS3 were selling for sub $200.00, you wouldn't hear me complaining and moaning about it. Not gonna happen, but hey. hehe.

Sony loses money on the PS3 but they make the money back because they get a cut of every game sold on the console. How does toshiba make money to cover their losses on hardware?

Licensing.

Also, Sony lost eight-hundred-million dollars...

Licensing.

Also, Sony lost eight-hundred-million dollars...

People are actually naive enough to believe that every "fire" sale is a loser. Little do they know that most of the time its actually a strategy that will in turn make more money for them.

damn, AVS has quickly turned into the cult-following blu-ray.com. Way too many immature, close minded asses in this thread. When you're on the BDA payroll, of course you won't have anything positive to say about HD DVD.

Some times I think Bill Hunt is plagiarizing my thoughts... He nailed it.

I'm not really all that interested in perusing the archives at Digital Bits, but where's the article on Sony doing the same thing with the 20GB PS3's (really all versions of the console)?

Oh wait...

damn, AVS has quickly turned into the cult-following blu-ray.com. Way too many immature, close minded asses in this thread. When you're on the BDA payroll, of course you won't have anything positive to say about HD DVD.

actually have you read most of this thread supposedly in the blu-ray software forum? it is quite obviously filled with hd dvd fanatics ready for the slaughter becase hunt wrote an article that makes absolute sense and they dont want to have anything to do with that.

damn, AVS has quickly turned into the cult-following blu-ray.com. Way too many immature, close minded asses in this thread. When you're on the BDA payroll, of course you won't have anything positive to say about HD DVD.

Yeah.. but blu-ray.com is the only place you can write something without being bitch fu***** in the a** ... i wish someone would have a big HD DVD site with a good forum other then the AVS mess..

heck i might get one then sell it get the 5 free movies and sell them too i bet i can make at least 50bucks on this sale

You know Toshiba is hitting some serious nerves when posers like Bill 'the shill' Hunt have to devote a loooong article to them.

Good job Billy, keep getting the word out about the sub $100 HD players!

.....it seems this format war has brought the worst out in people.

Correction....it's brought out the worst people. :)

Some times I think Bill Hunt is plagiarizing my thoughts... He nailed it.

why oh why would you do this to yourself?!

bland....you must know that his thoughts are extremely poor, remedial, and generally pose a lack of business sense. While I find you and I disagree much of the time I have often read posts which paint you to be an intelligent person.

Do you honestly share the same opinions and thoughts as Bill Hunt in this article?!? There is so much i can tear apart i just dont know where to start. Please say you are kidding and while you love BD and believe its a better format you also believe Bill Hunt is a dolt. Please do so. I really dont want to have to type a large post about ALL the things wrong with his article, how clear it is he is being paid, and what a lack of business sense this guy has. When/if I do that you will go down with his ship.

Admit you were kidding and that Bill Hunt is nothing but a monkey paid by Sony to puke up info to his followers and we can all just move on.

I must say I'm somewhat surprised by the large number of HD-DVD supporters in this thread. Methinks you're on the wrong forum. What do youthinks?

While I'm not going to be as vehement as Bill was, I do agree with him in general. There's more to what Toshiba is doing than just lowering the cost of their player. Whether they're combatting Blu-ray software, or dumping otherwise-unsellable stock, I don't know, and I'm not going to speculate right now. I will say that their timing is off... I would have expected a price cut like this during the holiday rush, not several weeks before Black Friday.

I wonder how this might affect public perception? A lot of general consumers believe that quality comes with price... Making it super-cheap might backfire on them, in regards to consumers who don't know any better. Some people are gullible, certainly, but how many would believe a Best Buy blueshirt claiming that a hundred-dollar player that barely costs more than a DVD player is better than the four-hundred dollar player on the other shelf?

why oh why would you do this to yourself?!

bland....you must know that his thoughts are extremely poor, remedial, and generally pose a lack of business sense. While I find you and I disagree much of the time I have often read posts which paint you to be an intelligent person.

Do you honestly share the same opinions and thoughts as Bill Hunt in this article?!? There is so much i can tear apart i just dont know where to start. Please say you are kidding and while you love BD and believe its a better format you also believe Bill Hunt is a dolt. Please do so. I really dont want to have to type a large post about ALL the things wrong with his article, how clear it is he is being paid, and what a lack of business sense this guy has. When/if I do that you will go down with his ship.

Admit you were kidding and that Bill Hunt is nothing but a monkey paid by Sony to puke up info to his followers and we can all just move on.


i wouldn't mind hearing from you why toshiba essentially eliminating any chance of other ce companies having interest in hd dvd is good? or how they have basically underhanded themselves as now their 3rd gen players will be lucky to move at all. or how a 3 day sale of a discontinued player at walmart is going to be the savior of hd dvd? i personally am annoyed because if im ever going to ditch my add-on and go for a standalone it wont be a toshiba. so since they have basically told all the other major ce companies that there is no profit to be made from hd dvd hardware and that dramatic price cuts early in the life of a new format is the only way to attempt to make sales i wonder when that sharp or panasonic hd dvd player is coming. but than again bill hunt has been around a long time and you are a poster on a obviously biased forum who cant stay on the proper side. so please do explain. thanks

I must say I'm somewhat surprised by the large number of HD-DVD supporters in this thread. Methinks you're on the wrong forum. What do youthinks?


why are you surprised?

While I own and buy both formats I wish to see HD DVD succeed more then BD. Lets assume for a sec I am a HD DVD only supporter. Here would be my arguement.

This article is more about HD DVD then it is BD. I count the mention of "HD-DVD" 16 times in that article and the mention of Blu Ray 3 times. The ariticle is all about HD DVD and there so called "clear out sale".

So rather then have this article create a BD circle jerk I think it makes more sense for it to cause debate and involve HD DVD backers as much (or even more) then BD backers.

I would go so far as to as why there are BD only supporters in a thread refering to an article clearly about HD DVD. :p

Is there honestly ANY reason to give a hoot what this Billy Blunt has to say???:confused:

i wouldn't mind hearing from you why toshiba essentially eliminating any chance of other ce companies having interest in hd dvd is good? or how they have basically underhanded themselves as now their 3rd gen players will be lucky to move at all. or how a 3 day sale of a discontinued player at walmart is going to be the savior of hd dvd? i personally am annoyed because if im ever going to ditch my add-on and go for a standalone it wont be a toshiba. so since they have basically told all the other major ce companies that there is no profit to be made from hd dvd hardware and that dramatic price cuts early in the life of a new format is the only way to attempt to make sales i wonder when that sharp or panasonic hd dvd player is coming. but than again bill hunt has been around a long time and you are a poster on a obviously biased forum who cant stay on the proper side. so please do explain. thanks

The PS3.

Everything you said applies exactly to the PS3. Everything Bill Hunt said can be turned around on Sony and the PS3. You can see from your own forums, if you're going to buy a Blu player, you buy a PS3. That's his point.

Some times I think Bill Hunt is plagiarizing my thoughts... He nailed it.

You're being sarcastic, right?

LIP

Some times I think Bill Hunt is plagiarizing my thoughts... He nailed it.

That's pretty scary that someone could actually think like you. :eek:

i wouldn't mind hearing from you why toshiba essentially eliminating any chance of other ce companies having interest in hd dvd is good? or how they have basically underhanded themselves as now their 3rd gen players will be lucky to move at all. or how a 3 day sale of a discontinued player at walmart is going to be the savior of hd dvd? i personally am annoyed because if im ever going to ditch my add-on and go for a standalone it wont be a toshiba. so since they have basically told all the other major ce companies that there is no profit to be made from hd dvd hardware and that dramatic price cuts early in the life of a new format is the only way to attempt to make sales i wonder when that sharp or panasonic hd dvd player is coming. but than again bill hunt has been around a long time and you are a poster on a obviously biased forum who cant stay on the proper side. so please do explain. thanks

Why are you so concerned about other CE's...there really is only Toshiba on the HD-DVD CE side and future Chinese companies. BD have most other prominent CE's on the BD side of the fence...why do you think this is? Simple...Toshiba get most of the DVD royalities on DVD players sold...they want that to stop and get a piece of the action and that was the promise of BD. Forget about "technology" and blah blah blah that BD fans go on and on about...the real issue is royalities from players and movies...I just don't understand how people cant understand that...
Do you think Panasonic or Sony make much on the $90 DVD players they sell...not very much...in reality, for the most part they don't even make the DVD players themselves...the same companies who will be making HD-DVD players for Toshiba for 15 bucks in 2 years will be making them as well for Sanyo, LG, Samsung, etc....

Toshiba are after the next 5-7 years of HD-DVD royalties...they could care less about how much they make on the hardware now, so long that they get the market over to HD-DVD and get the royalties...

LIP

The PS3.

Everything you said applies exactly to the PS3. Everything Bill Hunt said can be turned around on Sony and the PS3. You can see from your own forums, if you're going to buy a Blu player, you buy a PS3. That's his point.

And a good point it is.

You're being sarcastic, right?

LIP

Not even close. He posted this in the HD DVD forum.


OK, I'll make an appearance, say my peace and then duck out until I can make a safe rebuttal...

Here are my thoughts....plagiarized by Bill Hunt... For me, he nailed it..

Seriously, I have no idea how long Toshiba can give away these players... Who in their right mind would ever make players for them and expect to make a profit??

I look at this sale as a Kamikaze run. They may sink a few battle ships, but the war is a whole other game... IT completely baffles my business sense. Like they want to buy demand. in a product few know or care about at this early juncture (that goes for BD, too). It is like if McDonalds lowered cheeseburgers to $.25 It would create a temporary demand in its usual patrons, but folks who don't eat McDonalds won't show up no matter how cheap they are.. I would really be surprised if this significantly impacts software sales..

Here are my thoughts (borrowed from BH) in a nutshell...

How in the world does Toshiba think it's ever going to make any money from the HD-DVD format? I mean, seriously.

You may have heard by now that Toshiba has made pre-Black Friday arrangements with Wal-Mart to effectively dump its HD-A2 HD-DVD player starting this Friday (this weekend only) for just $98.87. You may also have heard that Best Buy has followed suit. Supplies are limited, of course, and the offer is apparently not valid in some parts of the country that have state anti-dumping laws.

Wikipedia defines dumping as "the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price which is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its costs of production." Toshiba's move isn't really anti-competitive, because there are no U.S. manufacturers making HD-DVD players. But it's that "below its costs of production" part that applies in this case. The HD-A2 arrived in the States with an original MSRP of $499.99. Now, Toshiba is letting it go for just $99. There's no way the player cost less than $100 to manufacturer. Just. No. Way.

You might wonder: How can Toshiba possibly have enough HD-A2s left to sell at just $99 at large, nationwide retailers? Simple. It's because they didn't sell originally, so plenty of stores still have them sitting on shelves, gathering dust. Toshiba is eager to clear them all out at this point, and Wal-Mart and Best Buy are happy to help.

Clearly, the HD-DVD camp understands that low price is really the only card they have left to play in this format war. Porn hasn't won the war for them as predicted, nor have online bells and whistles, or combo discs/players. The obvious question would be: Why in the world would any other hardware manufacturer want to join Toshiba's foolhardy strategy of driving player prices down to next to nothing? It's no accident that not a single other major manufacturer has released a stand-alone HD-DVD player (and no, the Venturer doesn't count). Given how dramatically Toshiba has slashed prices on HD-DVD players over the last year, you have to wonder how long they can keep losing money.

Forget for a moment that the HD-A2 isn't capable of delivering full 1080p video - that doesn't matter. Why? Because anyone who is so price sensitive that they wait until a high-def player price hits $99 to buy one isn't likely to have an HDTV set yet. Being super bargain shoppers, they aren't likely to want to pay $30 for an HD-DVD movie either. I'd bet many of the people who jump on this sale will either be using them primarily as upconverting DVD players, or they're already diehard HD-DVD supporters and are buying them as second players. For those regular consumers who take the bait, I wonder how they'll feel when they realize they can't play those big Disney titles in the "blu" boxes due next week.

Speaking of which... a couple weeks ago, when Disney and Sony launched the successful strategy of counter-selling their Blu-ray software titles 2 for 1 the same week Paramount and DreamWorks released Transformers on HD-DVD, we got a few e-mails from HD-DVD fans telling us how lame that was. Well, consider this: Is it any accident that Toshiba didn't wait for Black Friday to sell their $99 HD-DVD player, instead carefully planning the 3-day sale for the weekend before Disney and Pixar release Cars, Ratatouille and Pixar Short Films Collection on Blu-ray? Not a chance, folks. So Toshiba is slashing HD-DVD hardware prices to counteract the release of blockbuster Blu-ray software. What does that tell you about the viability of HD-DVD going into a fourth quarter that, by all accounts, is make or break for the format? (Especially with Warner Home Video now hinting that they're looking at the fourth quarter to "reevaluate" their dual format support)

Hey - there's no doubt that thousands of eager consumers will get a deal on cheap hardware this weekend. But it still isn't going to be the format war winner for HD-DVD that some would like to believe. On the contrary, it means that Toshiba is getting desperate... and is going even more deeply into the red with this format. Given the strength of their rhetoric this week, it's a safe bet that the Blu-ray camp will continue to press their advantage in the fourth quarter, and start turning up the heat on HD-DVD in the weeks and months ahead.

It boggles the mind to think that any reasonable person can still believe at this point that the HD-DVD format represents a viable long-term business for Hollywood. Keep in mind, contrary to the opinions of some online, we don't think HD-DVD is a bad format at all. If it were the only HD format around, we'd be all over it here at The Bits. But Toshiba is effectively paying studios to support it, and now they're practically giving the hardware and software away. Do you suppose we'll see free HD-DVD player offers in Cracker Jacks and cereal boxes next? $50 players? $25 players?

Experienced fighter pilots will tell you that when you dive your aircraft at the deck, you very quickly run out of maneuvering room. It seems like the ground's coming up awfully fast for HD-DVD.

Back with more on Blu-ray Fest later this afternoon. Stay tuned...
__________________
Jeff

Oct 31 is Blu Ray's Y2K....A lot of scares, but did anything happen?

O.M.G.

Did he just mentioned the "No 1080p on A2" argument? :eek:

I can't believe he will stoop that low. Then again . . . . .

you're WRONG WRONG WRONG bill hunt, WRONG..........toshiba is STILL MAKING MONEY selling the a2's <$100! garbage..:mad:

Hey rocket scientists out there, how many HDTV's sold in the last 10 years are 1080p? Less than 5% if that many. If I were looking for mass adoption of a format I would be wanting to sell to the 95% with 1080i or 720p. Not the niche 5% with 1080p tv's. That is what bluray is for. The 1080p argument is idiotic.

The discs are all 1080p so that is all that matters. You can upgrade displays or players later.

Where the heck did the "Most players will be bought by current owners" arguement come from? I see Spam.C quoting 60%. Did I miss a link? Was a survey done? Bill repeats this complete utter FUD.

How on earth would ANYONE know if someone that has an HDDVD player is going to buy another one for the bedroom? If your basing it on AVS, thats what, .0000001 of the purchasers?

Enough with this silly talking point.

That's pretty scary that someone could actually think like you. :eek:

no kidding.

Where the heck did the "Most players will be bought by current owners" arguement come from? I see Spam.C quoting 60%. Did I miss a link? Was a survey done? Bill repeats this complete utter FUD.

How on earth would ANYONE know if someone that has an HDDVD player is going to buy another one for the bedroom? If your basing it on AVS, thats what, .0000001 of the purchasers?

Enough with this silly talking point.

Thats exactly it. Everyone got their marching orders this morning and are trying their best to dampen this sale. Sad if you ask me.

i wouldn't mind hearing from you why toshiba essentially eliminating any chance of other ce companies having interest in hd dvd is good? ... i personally am annoyed because if im ever going to ditch my add-on and go for a standalone it wont be a toshiba. so since they have basically told all the other major ce companies that there is no profit to be made from hd dvd hardware and that dramatic price cuts early in the life of a new format is the only way to attempt to make sales i wonder when that sharp or panasonic hd dvd player is coming.

I see this same 'logic' from Bill Hunts latest editorial and I'm just left slack jawed.

Yes, it is quite possible that no other CE is going to ever attempt to put out sub $300 HD DVD as they likely will not make any money on it. One reason being that the Toshibas are not only (relatively) inexpenisve, they are also apparently pretty finely constructed pieces of gear for the money.
But who says the sub $300 price range is the only level HD DVD enthusiasts will purchase players at?

Why don't you use this same logic on the Bd side? Do the presence of sub $400 Bd players from Panasonic and Sony mean that Pioneer or Denon have to come out with a unit hitting a similar price point or else they 'can't compete'?

Please. I expect this 1/assed spin from Hunt and the 'bits, but I thought you guys here would be a little more circumspect.

The HD-DVD camp sure is desparate...tough times and tougher times with little to no good exclusive titles eh?

BD on the other hand is steam rolling ahead in full speed, thanks to a healthy lineup of fantastic AAA exclusives coming out (or have come out in the past few months).

I could count 20 titles from now till early Jan.
Hd-DUD? 4.

The HD-DVD camp sure is desparate...tough times and tougher times with little to no good exclusive titles eh?

BD on the other hand is steam rolling ahead in full speed, thanks to a healthy lineup of fantastic AAA exclusives coming out (or have come out in the past few months).

I could count 20 titles from now till early Jan.
Hd-DUD? 4.
Is blu-ray.com down?

Seriously, it's fanboys like this guy that make me embarrassed to own BD sometimes. All I can say is this...if BD is such a lock and has won the war, why the heck do you guys even care what HD DVD does? You don't own a player so why does it concern you? I mean, the war is practically over already right? ;)

He makes some good points and some other not so good points. :D

Dumping? When Sony does it they call is subsidizing. And Sony is and has been since the PS3 was released. This is just funny. I myself have 2 PS3s and 2 HD-DVD players but what a comical slant. In the past it wasn't until those DVD players reached $99 that Blockbuster did away with the tapes. That's also when the majority of people bought them.

As for the 1080i vs 1080p BS. That's playing the ignorance card 100%.

Blu-Ray is fantastic, as is HD-DVD, but I see things the other way around. HD has Paramount, Universal, and it could be that they have Wrner soon. This amounts to as much or more as Disney, Fox and Sony...and MS will probably eventually sway Disney/MGM anyway.

I'd be happy to see Blu succeed just as much as HD (kinda) but unless they're willing to play the proce card I don't see how they can. Even if Blu-Ray was significantly better (so far my dual support library shows they are at parity), most consumers aren't out for the best...that's an AVS delusion.

Thanks for a giggle Bill.

Dumping? When Sony does it they call is subsidizing. And Sony is and has been since the PS3 was released. This is just funny. I myself have 2 PS3s and 2 HD-DVD players but what a comical slant. In the past it wasn't until those DVD players reached $99 that Blockbuster did away with the tapes. That's also when the majority of people bought them.

As for the 1080i vs 1080p BS. That's playing the ignorance card 100%.

Blu-Ray is fantastic, as is HD-DVD, but I see things the other way around. HD has Paramount, Universal, and it could be that they have Wrner soon. This amounts to as much or more as Disney, Fox and Sony...and MS will probably eventually sway Disney/MGM anyway.

I'd be happy to see Blu succeed just as much as HD (kinda) but unless they're willing to play the proce card I don't see how they can. Even if Blu-Ray was significantly better (so far my dual support library shows they are at parity), most consumers aren't out for the best...that's an AVS delusion.

Thanks for a giggle Bill.

+100 my friend, excellent post.

I see this same 'logic' from Bill Hunts latest editorial and I'm just left slack jawed.

Yes, it is quite possible that no other CE is going to ever attempt to put out sub $300 HD DVD as they likely will not make any money on it. One reason being that the Toshibas are not only (relatively) inexpenisve, they are also apparently pretty finely constructed pieces of gear for the money.
But who says the sub $300 price range is the only level HD DVD enthusiasts will purchase players at?

Why don't you use this same logic on the Bd side? Do the presence of sub $400 Bd players from Panasonic and Sony mean that Pioneer or Denon have to come out with a unit hitting a similar price point or else they 'can't compete'?

Please. I expect this 1/assed spin from Hunt and the 'bits, but I thought you guys here would be a little more circumspect.


i think you missed the point here...first i wont buy a toshiba because the previous toshiba dvd players i have dealt with have been utter crap. that is a personal preference like much of the sony bashing that goes on in this forum. whether you like it or not the ps3 is a pretty terrific peice of a/v gear for the what you get at the price. the point is there are other types of players on the bd side to fill out the different demographics. there exists high end product for those who want it. there also exists more wallet friendly product for those who want that. but there is a choice for the consumer. if i want to go bd i have several different ce options as well as levels to look at. if i want to go hd dvd i have 1 company. that is it. now at toshiba's price slashing why would i, as say sharp for any example, want to come on board. i know that toshiba is going to undercut me at every level. now if sharp comes aboard at a higher price point and toshiba ratches the price back up now you no longer have that holy low price grail. ce companies enter into a new format to make money. dvd players no longer make money for these companies because they have become so easily affordable. but that mass market was reached after several years of profitable dvd players for major ce companies. then you cheap chinese players and such came aboard. so toshiba by going to the firesale is obviously into the last stand. either these players will drastically change software sales by brining forth massive new player owners or hd dvd hardware becomes seen as an anti money making venture to other ce companies keeping them away, while the remaining software publishers move to a format that has profitability. the fact is the software sale hunt references was smart. the ce companies still are doing well on hardware and software publishers are moving disks. if bd comes forward with some cheaper players the different ce companies supporting bd will still feel that they can price players into the different demographics of the market. but with toshiba basically giving hd dvd players away anyone else who would jump would be expected to do much the same therefore no profit therefore no desire to make the move. ultimately if you are excited by a discontinued entry-level player from toshiba than good for you. you can kiss you toshiba banner everynight before you go to bed. but until retail shoppers see hd dvd players from more than one company the format is not going anywhere. but while this obviously biased hd dvd fanbased forum rejoices the bd group will be smiling at the higher software rates and growing ps3 sales witch leads to more interest in the format and eventually big money for ce companies whose players are now appealing to an actual audience.

Dumping? When Sony does it they call is subsidizing. And Sony is and has been since the PS3 was released. This is just funny. I myself have 2 PS3s and 2 HD-DVD players but what a comical slant. In the past it wasn't until those DVD players reached $99 that Blockbuster did away with the tapes. That's also when the majority of people bought them.

As for the 1080i vs 1080p BS. That's playing the ignorance card 100%.

Blu-Ray is fantastic, as is HD-DVD, but I see things the other way around. HD has Paramount, Universal, and it could be that they have Wrner soon. This amounts to as much or more as Disney, Fox and Sony...and MS will probably eventually sway Disney/MGM anyway.

I'd be happy to see Blu succeed just as much as HD (kinda) but unless they're willing to play the proce card I don't see how they can. Even http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon8.gifif Blu-Ray was significantly better (so far my dual support library shows they are at parity), most consumers aren't out for the best...that's an AVS delusion.

Thanks for a giggle Bill.


in the short term you are right about 1080i v 1080p. on a fair amount of sets the difference may not be great. but the new hdtv push is 1080p and when people buy their shiny new 1080p tv at best buy you better believe the blu shirt is pushing a 1080p something at them...even if its a dvd player:mad: but you comment about sony and the ps3 is way off. first off the second holiday season is a gaming consoles lifespan almost always produces as price drop and game consoles on the whole, not just the ps3, traditionally enter the market being sold at a loss because the software sales make up that difference. sony gets a cut of every ps3 game sold and therefore can put the hardware out at an intial loss until they begin to produce the units cheaper. toshiba selling $500 hd dvd players at $99 is essentially dumping units that they couldn't sell at the profitable price point. hence the fire sale

Well, consider this: Is it any accident that Toshiba didn't wait for Black Friday to sell their $99 HD-DVD player, instead carefully planning the 3-day sale for the weekend before Disney and Pixar release Cars, Ratatouille and Pixar Short Films Collection on Blu-ray? Not a chance, folks. So Toshiba is slashing HD-DVD hardware prices to counteract the release of blockbuster Blu-ray software. What does that tell you about the viability of HD-DVD going into a fourth quarter that, by all accounts, is make or break for the format? (Especially with Warner Home Video now hinting that they're looking at the fourth quarter to "reevaluate" their dual format support)

I guess anyone who bashed Sony's BOGO sale tactics to beat Transformers sales would be ok with this Toshiba move.

Let's see if you can stay consistent.

you're WRONG WRONG WRONG bill hunt, WRONG..........toshiba is STILL MAKING MONEY selling the a2's <$100! garbage..:mad:

You must be out of your mind. If they were, it wouldn't be violating state dumping laws; that much should be obvious to you. This thing cost ~$500 when it launched. Put things in perspective.

I'm losing money on my more expensive to produce and market product, so I tell my competitor they're crazy and should be losing money when I have no idea of their true costs though its very well known their costs don't come close to approaching mine. Everyone here would accuse me of reaching at that point.

You must be out of your mind. If they were, it wouldn't be violating state dumping laws; that much should be obvious to you. This thing cost ~$500 when it launched. Put things in perspective.

That isn't really going to be your argument is it, xbd?

That isn't really going to be your argument is it, xbd?

Nav if you're of the opinion that you think the HD-A2 had a manufacturing cost to Toshiba under $100, I'll happily hear you out. But I don't think the points I made are off-kilter in the least; this is a unit that probably ceased production months ago, and has to incorporate the same high-end (from a CE perspective) silicon and drive arrays as go into any of these high-def players.

Nav if you're of the opinion that you think the HD-A2 had a manufacturing cost to Toshiba under $100, I'll happily hear you out. But I don't think the points I made are off-kilter in the least; this is a unit that probably ceased production months ago, and has to incorporate the same high-end silicon and drive arrays as go into any of these high-def players.

lol....ALWAYS with the edits!

I will definitely defer to your financials scrounging that you do so well. I just wasn't expecting the dumping angle to be brought up by you thats all. I was hoping for a longer (pre-edit) post that I could read and maybe agree with.

All things being equal this deal and the free Heroes set have moved me off the fence, so I (as the article suggested) will be getting either another 360 player for my sons room or a stand-alone for the living room and moving the 360 player to the other 360.

EDIT: Essentially what this has done is removed one of my excuses that I would throw at the wife for buying a PS3, which I was supposed to buy after GDC...

duplicate post - see below

but you comment about sony and the ps3 is way off. first off the second holiday season is a gaming consoles lifespan almost always produces as price drop and game consoles on the whole, not just the ps3, traditionally enter the market being sold at a loss because the software sales make up that difference. sony gets a cut of every ps3 game sold and therefore can put the hardware out at an intial loss until they begin to produce the units cheaper. toshiba selling $500 hd dvd players at $99 is essentially dumping units that they couldn't sell at the profitable price point. hence the fire sale

Actually, YOU'RE the one who's mistaken. Toshiba still makes a profit by selling the A2 at $99 (it costs them less than $100 to produce the players). Nintendo also makes a profit out of every Wii sold and is killing the PS3 in the console race.

The PS2 is killing the PS3 in the console race!!!LOL

lol....ALWAYS with the edits!

Hey, all I added this time was "(from a CE perspective)." :p

I will definitely defer to your financials scrounging that you do so well. I just wasn't expecting the dumping angle to be brought up by you thats all. I was hoping for a longer (pre-edit) post that I could read and maybe agree with.

Well, the dumping angle I'm simply taking at face value - even for Bill Hunt that sentence was very declarative and matter-of-fact, so if indeed the only states the sale is not occurring in are states with anti-dumping laws, IMO that's the 'case closed' on the manufacturing costs being over $100 right there.

I'm sure as the day unfolds tomorrow, we'll get a clearer picture as to what states it will not be taking place in, and whether indeed there is a correlation. But needless to say from my own viewpoint, I do indeed believe that they cost more than a $100 to manufacture at the time of their manufacturing, which was probably ~6 months ago.

All things being equal this deal and the free Heroes set have moved me off the fence, so I (as the article suggested) will be getting either another 360 player for my sons room or a stand-alone for the living room and moving the 360 player to the other 360.

EDIT: Essentially what this has done is removed one of my excuses that I would throw at the wife for buying a PS3, which I was supposed to buy after GDC...

I'm not surprised you would've gotten off the fence with this; honestly if I was in your position I would have also. Indeed, with the box-set anomalies at play last week I almost got a 360 add-on myself! But that's my problem always, is the desire to impulse buy but too much discipline to actually do it - and I know you feel my pain there. :) And the $99 player deal is absolutely a great deal as well - I hope you succeed in getting one of them!

As you can tell from the state of this sub-forum though, for those interested in BD, it's a place under seige.

Sony loses money on the PS3 but they make the money back because they get a cut of every game sold on the console. How does toshiba make money to cover their losses on hardware?

You got to make quality games first before this statement becomes true. Guitar Hero III will be their biggest hit since launch, and guess what kids, it's on all platforms. Ooops.

My PS3 is nothing but a Blu Ray machine. And that's a-okay with me until the real exclusive games come out. We'll see what Uncharted brings, but from the video footage, it looks like crap.

On another note, the part that has tipped me from HD-DVD (been HD-DVD from launch until a couple of months ago and now neutral) to lean more Blu is the protective coating on the discs. My god that stuff rocks and is perfect for my kid. You look at an HD-DVD wrong and it scratches (much like SD). If a disc slips in case for HD-DVD, it's over. Blu, I've had one broke, with a sharp edge, and even shook it around to try and scratch it, and nothing. It's no wonder Disney likes them! Great selling point for kids!

You let me know the states the HD-A2 does not sell in tomorrow.

i wouldn't mind hearing from you why toshiba essentially eliminating any chance of other ce companies having interest in hd dvd is good?

Ill answer this one and think it will address much of your other statements. Fact is toshiba has not made it impossible for other CE companies to enter the market, in fact, they are securing the ability for them to enter.

Not all CE companies are interested in entering the "low end" market. You can pick any number of CE companies, for example Classe, Naim, Krell, Linn, Rotel, Classe, Denon etc. Do you think they care that Toshiba has cornered the market they (toshiba) have always cornered? I mean when it comes to DVD there are the low end, mid level and high end.

There will always be some at the bottom competing with each other and likely it will come down to which retailers carry which brands in that market which decides more then which CE companies are competing at the $100 or $200 level.

The bottom line is a $100-$200 level player is going to make the masses adapt to HDM better $400-$600 players (offered by the BDA). Once HD DVD becomes the norm (which I believe will happen) other CE manufactures will be thankful for Toshiba and its $100 player because it helped to create what is the clear winner and will give other CE companies security to release a player at the market the are used to going after. You see a Rotel, Classe, Linn, Krell etc cant afford to enter a format war with no winner. They are all waiting for a winner...and a winner will be decided by a entry level player.


so when Billl Hunt writes a blog which clearly shows how inept he is when looking at the bigger picture, or when taking into consideration business 101 (the most basic level imaginable) I find it necessary to point out the flaws. Entry level players from toshiba are a favor to CE companies..they are all waiting for a winner, and that is what toshiba is trying ti create. I addition, if other "low end CE want the release a low end player they will see toshiba's sells, make the appropriate arrangments and do so. There is room.


make sense?

Ill answer this one and think it will address much of your other statements. Fact is toshiba has not made it impossible for other CE companies to enter the market, in fact, they are securing the ability for them to enter.

Not all CE companies are interested in entering the "low end" market. You can pick any number of CE companies, for example Classe, Naim, Krell, Linn, Rotel, Classe, Denon etc. Do you think they care that Toshiba has cornered the market they (toshiba) have always cornered? I mean when it comes to DVD there are the low end, mid level and high end.

There will always be some at the bottom competing with each other and likely it will come down to which retailers carry which brands in that market which decides more then which CE companies are competing at the $100 or $200 level.

The bottom line is a $100-$200 level player is going to make the masses adapt to HDM better $400-$600 players (offered by the BDA). Once HD DVD becomes the norm (which I believe will happen) other CE manufactures will be thankful for Toshiba and its $100 player because it helped to create what is the clear winner and will give other CE companies security to release a player at the market the are used to going after. You see a Rotel, Classe, Linn, Krell etc cant afford to enter a format war with no winner. They are all waiting for a winner...and a winner will be decided by a entry level player.


so when Billl Hunt writes a blog which clearly shows how inept he is when looking at the bigger picture, or when taking into consideration business 101 (the most basic level imaginable) I find it necessary to point out the flaws. Entry level players from toshiba are a favor to CE companies..they are all waiting for a winner, and that is what toshiba is trying ti create. I addition, if other "low end CE want the release a low end player they will see toshiba's sells, make the appropriate arrangments and do so. There is room.


make sense?

Good post!

Actually, YOU'RE the one who's mistaken. Toshiba still makes a profit by selling the A2 at $99 (it costs them less than $100 to produce the players). Nintendo also makes a profit out of every Wii sold and is killing the PS3 in the console race.

good luck with the notion that toshiba is making a profit on these players. as for nintendo its apples to oranges. look at the technology and what is involved in the ps3 versus the nintendo. of course they make a profit. the nintendo is essentially a gamecube with a gimmick controller. xbox 360 is the comparison you should be going for here and that did enter the market as a MAJOR loss per unit sold to microsoft when it launched. look up the numbers. how did they subsidize? software.

Ill answer this one and think it will address much of your other statements. Fact is toshiba has not made it impossible for other CE companies to enter the market, in fact, they are securing the ability for them to enter.

Not all CE companies are interested in entering the "low end" market. You can pick any number of CE companies, for example Classe, Naim, Krell, Linn, Rotel, Classe, Denon etc. Do you think they care that Toshiba has cornered the market they (toshiba) have always cornered? I mean when it comes to DVD there are the low end, mid level and high end.

There will always be some at the bottom competing with each other and likely it will come down to which retailers carry which brands in that market which decides more then which CE companies are competing at the $100 or $200 level.

The bottom line is a $100-$200 level player is going to make the masses adapt to HDM better $400-$600 players (offered by the BDA). Once HD DVD becomes the norm (which I believe will happen) other CE manufactures will be thankful for Toshiba and its $100 player because it helped to create what is the clear winner and will give other CE companies security to release a player at the market the are used to going after. You see a Rotel, Classe, Linn, Krell etc cant afford to enter a format war with no winner. They are all waiting for a winner...and a winner will be decided by a entry level player.


so when Billl Hunt writes a blog which clearly shows how inept he is when looking at the bigger picture, or when taking into consideration business 101 (the most basic level imaginable) I find it necessary to point out the flaws. Entry level players from toshiba are a favor to CE companies..they are all waiting for a winner, and that is what toshiba is trying ti create. I addition, if other "low end CE want the release a low end player they will see toshiba's sells, make the appropriate arrangments and do so. There is room.


make sense?

im glad to see that a base amount of entry level players over a 3 day sale is going to win the format war. also bd has somehow managed to enter the market at different ends with most all major ce companies behind them. but because they arent giving their players away somehow has secured the market for others to enter. i know if i was panasonic i would be excited about entering into the market with $150-200 the max level i could go after a year. of course you will rebut that those companies are like toshiba and will make up the low end and therefore be thrilled about this. ultimately this is all a shame as this situation should have been long avoided. whichever prevails i will ultimately be satisfied with because i want hdm. but its pretty clear that bd is the logical successor and toshiba is desperately trying to plow on to hang onto those royalties. im sure with that in mind and their firesale approach they are really getting other manufacturers excited about hd dvd hardware. but who am i to argue with someone who knows business 101 and put bill hunt in his place.;)

Wow once again a blu-ray thread with so many HD DVD fanboys posting in it.

Bill, while obviously a bit biased, makes several valid points in his article. First off being that toshiba is basically making nearly impossible for other CE mfg's to get into the market at this time with their massive price drops. Quite frankly they went a bit overboard. Dropping price is the only ting they had left to do and it just happens to clear out there inventory of old discontinued players. The only thing I will give Toshiba credit for in this is that by doing this sale so far before Black Friday they may have a chance of driving more software sales over the holidays. If they wait until Black friday to get the press machine working they will easily fall behind even further in software sales over the shopping season.

I don't want to say Toshiba is getting desperate, because the strategy is sound, but I think they are a little panic'd over Warner's thinking and are pulling out all the stops. I just think they went a bit overboard with the price cut. By botteming out their pricing now, they have very little room to manuever in the future. Its going to be hard for them to justify a $300 or $400 player to J6P after he has seen one at $100. And I don't think Toshiba can afford to continue to release all new players at sub $200 beyond the holidays.

On the Blu-ray side I really hope we do see a $200 or $250 dollar player for this holiday even if it is a profile 1.0 player that is being discontinued.

never mind, not worth it

Originally Posted by splinters
Ok, am I the only one that sees the first part of the article as a bit hypocritical?

I'm a blu-supporter with a ps3, but the ps3 has been sold at a loss since day 1, why hasn't Bill Hunt taken them to task for the same thing Toshiba is doing? Both are trying to acquire the largest audience to win the movie format wars. It may be a desperation move, but I'm not sure why it's invalid.

HDM became a pricing war from the day Sony promised to put $1000+ MSRP drives into a $300-$400 console. From that point it was clear Sony would massively 'subsidize' (or as the 'journalists' prefers, dump) the blu-ray format. This promise to dump blu-ray drives via the PS3 is the very reason blu-ray enjoys it studio and CE advantage.

In point of fact Sony struck first with pricing war before either format was released since the entire industry knew a gaming console couldn't sell at the normal prices for this technology. As it turns out even coming in at "low" $500-$600 for BD+Gaming it was still too high and has required more price slashes.

True that game consoles have often been sold at a lost (not always, ask Nintendo) but never to this degree. $600 price points that still took a lost was and is simply unprecedented and cannot be justifed as a 'traditional console model'. The PS3/Blu-ray price points and losses broke with tradition.

Neither Sony or Toshiba should be charaterized as "desperate" since both have fought on price from day 1. Anothe sad example of biased journalism from this source.

True that game consoles have often been sold at a lost (not always, ask Nintendo) but never to this degree. $600 price points that still took a lost was and is simply unprecedented and cannot be justifed as a 'traditional console model'. The PS3/Blu-ray price points and losses broke with tradition.


Actually I am pretty sure the XBOX 360 broke the model with it selling at $400 and still taking a $130 loss on each console during its release.

Bill Hunt is totally unbiased. You guys context took him out of.

Actually I am pretty sure the XBOX 360 broke the model with it selling at $400 and still taking a $130 loss on each console during its release.

$400 was above what had become a usual release price of $299 but that is not real break with model. Other (failed) consoles have come in high such as 3DO and even Neo Geo.

Sony broke the normal model with a combination of both an unusually high price along with heavy subsidization which made it unlikely they were going to make money back on the console for many years. $1000 drives were never put in traditionally low price game consoles.

The highprice+even higher cost broke the console model.

Is blu-ray.com down?

Seriously, it's fanboys like this guy that make me embarrassed to own BD sometimes. All I can say is this...if BD is such a lock and has won the war, why the heck do you guys even care what HD DVD does? You don't own a player so why does it concern you? I mean, the war is practically over already right? ;)

Its these "purple people" like you that make me sick that keep this format war continuing, since you want your cake and eat it to. Makes me sick you even own Blu-Ray. Why don't you just stick to the "cheaper format". BTW you are in the Blu-Ray section ;) You can't blame someone when we want one format to the standard in Blu-Ray. Sorry not everybody has a disposable income like yours to get another HD player or even enough HDMI ports on their TV's.

Makes me sick you even own Blu-Ray.

Makes me sick that your a Niners fan, whats your point?

Its these "purple people" like you that make me sick that keep this format war continuing, since you want your cake and eat it to. Makes me sick you even own Blu-Ray. Why don't you just stick to the "cheaper format". BTW you are in the Blu-Ray section ;) You can't blame someone when we want one format to the standard in Blu-Ray. Sorry not everybody has a disposable income like yours to get another HD player or even enough HDMI ports on their TV's.

wow...avs is really going down the drain with posts like these...

Wow once again a blu-ray thread with so many HD DVD fanboys posting in it.

Bill, while obviously a bit biased, makes several valid points in his article. First off being that toshiba is basically making nearly impossible for other CE mfg's to get into the market at this time with their massive price drops. Quite frankly they went a bit overboard. Dropping price is the only ting they had left to do and it just happens to clear out there inventory of old discontinued players. The only thing I will give Toshiba credit for in this is that by doing this sale so far before Black Friday they may have a chance of driving more software sales over the holidays. If they wait until Black friday to get the press machine working they will easily fall behind even further in software sales over the shopping season.

I don't want to say Toshiba is getting desperate, because the strategy is sound, but I think they are a little panic'd over Warner's thinking and are pulling out all the stops. I just think they went a bit overboard with the price cut. By botteming out their pricing now, they have very little room to manuever in the future. Its going to be hard for them to justify a $300 or $400 player to J6P after he has seen one at $100. And I don't think Toshiba can afford to continue to release all new players at sub $200 beyond the holidays.

On the Blu-ray side I really hope we do see a $200 or $250 dollar player for this holiday even if it is a profile 1.0 player that is being discontinued.


this is a really good post. bill takes alot of heat from this site because the bits backed blu and all he really wants is a standard format. that brings out the hd dvd zealots who all claim to be "experts" yet none are actually sitting in bill's chair themselves. my point has been just yours, that there is no longer any incentive, at least not any time soon, for other ce companies to jump on board. with toshiba going so low in the prices how can they expect to sell any $3-400 players. the might as well throw those xa35's into the garbage because the price they set is the price they have to live by. and other ce companies are hoping to make a profit off of new hardware in a new generation. i think it would be wise for bd to drop a couple 1.0 models down to $200 b/c these same companies will still have the incentive or selling new 1.1 2.0 models at the higher price and make more money. all the incentive in this game is with the bd supporting ce companies and therefore if you want hd dvd for the forseeable future you as a consumer have 1 whole option. at least if bd drops down a bit they end the price gap nonsense and still have future players to market at profitable prices.

Makes me sick that your a Niners fan, whats your point?

true...E-A-G-L-E-S...EAGLES. ;)

Bill Hunt is just a guy the runs 68,338th most popular web site in the world. It's amazing how people get so worked up over what are clearly just his opinions.

I agree with Bill that it would be better for movie lovers if there was only one format, but I don't think either side is close to capitulating. I have to admit that it is a little bit amusing to see Bill get frustrated that the feisty little HD simply refuses to die despite getting ass-raped in software sales by BD.

Sorry not everybody has a disposable income like yours to get another HD player or even enough HDMI ports on their TV's.

Huh? You can afford a BD player and 71 BD's... but a $100 HD player is too much?

Huh? You can afford a BD player and 71 BD's... but a $100 HD player is too much?


Yea its too much because then that would mean he would have to buy the almighty expensive combo discs.

/sarcasm

wow...avs is really going down the drain with posts like these...

qft

One thing is certain. Bill Hunt definitely hit a nerve with the HD-DVD supporters, otherwise they wouldn't be posting in this blu-ray thread in record numbers. If Bill's comments were not true and he truly was an "idiot" people wouldn't even bother responding. But based on the reactions I'm reading here it is obvious that Bill Hunt just spoke the truth and the HD-DVD supporters know it.

Toshiba is desparate. They are giving away players in an attempt to save their format. They know if WB drops them it is game over.

When you are forced to give away your hardware to stay alive, you're in trouble.

I've also learned from this thread that a lot of the hatred toward blu-ray is lack of affordability. Many people cannot afford a blu-ray player so they hate the format.

One thing is certain. Bill Hunt definitely hit a nerve with the HD-DVD supporters, otherwise they wouldn't be posting in this blu-ray thread in record numbers. If Bill's comments were not true and he truly was an "idiot" people wouldn't even bother responding. But based on the reactions I'm reading here it is obvious that Bill Hunt just spoke the truth and the HD-DVD supporters know it.

Toshiba is desparate. They are giving away players in an attempt to save their format. They know if WB drops them it is game over.

When you are forced to give away your hardware to stay alive, you're in trouble.

I've also learned from this thread that a lot of the hatred toward blu-ray is lack of affordability. Many people cannot afford a blu-ray player so they hate the format.

i hear you my blu brother you get what you pay for blu is like ferrari and HdDVd is like a kia I rather pay 2k for a high def player than a measly 100 dollars for high def. thats why our slogan is, "BEYOND HIGH DEFINTION" blu lets you do this.

Can you imagine what will happen if walmart is able to sell the majority of the 2 million they ordered? Wow.

Link or FUD.

What he said makes sense........no way toshiba would want to lose that kind of money on a player unless no one wanted them for the original price.


Plus all the hd dvd owners are going to go get one of these players for a second for another room before a regular consumer that doesn't have one has a chance....

There are a few things, first, the players will be limited, so the price is more a PR stunt than anything else. 2nd, if Toshiba is speaking the truth (hd-dvd not lying? lol) the 197 dollar A2 was a market thing not a toshiba thing.

But there is one very valid point, who else than Toshiba would bother with HD-DVD when it´s turning into a Discount market so early.

One thing is certain. Bill Hunt definitely hit a nerve with the HD-DVD supporters, otherwise they wouldn't be posting in this blu-ray thread in record numbers. If Bill's comments were not true and he truly was an "idiot" people wouldn't even bother responding. But based on the reactions I'm reading here it is obvious that Bill Hunt just spoke the truth and the HD-DVD supporters know it.

Toshiba is desparate. They are giving away players in an attempt to save their format. They know if WB drops them it is game over.

When you are forced to give away your hardware to stay alive, you're in trouble.

I've also learned from this thread that a lot of the hatred toward blu-ray is lack of affordability. Many people cannot afford a blu-ray player so they hate the format.

It's not that he hits a nerve, but that he is so far out in left field now. His little anti-HD DVD rants have gone beyond comedy to the point of being insulting to anyone with intelligence. The scary thing is that I'm sure there are a lot of people who read his column and take it to be true.

I support both formats equally and I don't give a rats ass who wins as long as I have HD movies. I don't need some ignorant ass telling me what's right and wrong. Spending $399 on a BD player is hardly what I would call unaffordable.
But, for the average consumer, a $99 HD player will look very tempting. How can this be a bad thing?

It's not that he hits a nerve, but that he is so far out in left field now. His little anti-HD DVD rants have gone beyond comedy to the point of being insulting to anyone with intelligence. The scary thing is that I'm sure there are a lot of people who read his column and take it to be true.

I support both formats equally and I don't give a rats ass who wins as long as I have HD movies. I don't need some ignorant ass telling me what's right and wrong. Spending $399 on a BD player is hardly what I would call unaffordable.
But, for the average consumer, a $99 HD player will look very tempting. How can this be a bad thing?

Many people are calling $399 unaffordable. And what exactly is in Bill Hunt's article is ignorant and untrue? Toshiba is giving away players to try and stay alive. HD-DVD has not even been on the market for 2 years. Econ 101 will tell you that this is not good news for Toshiba or HD-DVD. It is desparation.

I support both formats too but Bill Hunt is simply stating the truth.

I didn't even bother to read this whole thread as Bill Hunt's article is a joke. If ""the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting a product to another country at a price which is either below the price it charges in its home market or is below its costs of production." is dumping and there are laws against it then how does Sony sell the PS3 in these states? I mean, they are taking over a $200 loss per unit and it's manufactured outside the US.... so why are we letting them "Dump" this product. I don't understand how anyone can read something like this no matter what side of the fence they are on and then read anything else this guy writes and take it with any sort of credibility. This is why the internet can suck so much, anyone, even with no credentials or journalistic capabilities can spew whatever garbage they want. Don't be so Red/Blu color blind in this "War". Just buy the movies you want and move on with your life. So sad.

- Jon

Many people are calling $399 unaffordable. And what exactly is in Bill Hunt's article is ignorant and untrue? Toshiba is giving away players to try and stay alive. HD-DVD has not even been on the market for 2 years. Econ 101 will tell you that this is not good news for Toshiba or HD-DVD. It is desparation.

I support both formats too but Bill Hunt is simply stating the truth.

That's a very humorous statement, sir. Hunt's version of the "truth" is very one-sided. As far as Economics is concerned, the last time I checked, Toshiba is turning a profit and who said they were setting the price level at $99? Is it not the choice of the retaillers to sell the units at this price level?

You call is desperation. I call it market penetration.

Funny, I bought an XA1 the day it came out for $799...hardly $1000...

Ironic that $799 is the same price I paid for my first DVD player (Panasonic)...



You mean like $1000 for XA1?

If Bill's comments were not true and he truly was an "idiot" people wouldn't even bother responding.

Are you new to the Internet?

time