I'm bit confused on how to upgrade my home cinema for proper audiophile stereo playback. I am currently using a Denon 4308 and will upgrade to the Halcro pre when the new one with HDMI 1.3 comes out.

I would like to use dedicated stereo pre/ momo amps on the same front speakers I use for my HC setup. I would like to bypass the Denon completely for my stereo listening. How should I connect the stereo amp to the Denon so that I integrate everything in one setup?

My main music sources are a Kaleidescape Movie and music player with a dcs D to A converter Z and a dcs cd transport.

the quick and easy answer is to use the front Right and front Left channel pre-outs from the denon into a 2channel or 2 mono block amplifiers and then to the speakers. This wouldn't totally bypass the denon for stereo as it would still be the pre-amplifier but it would bypass the denon amplifier (at least for the front two speakers) for all material, HT and music.

If I understand it correctly, I do't think I'd as "the rick" suggests.

In my set-up I use a dedicated tube based pre-amp connected to my main amps for two-channel and a Krell HTS 7.1 for movies and multi-channel. The Pre/pro is off when I listen to stereo - it is like it is not even in the system.

For Movies and M-Channel music I use the HT pass-through of the preamp and the pre/pro does all the work. The preamp is connected to the front L&R amps as mentioned above, and the pre/pro is connected to the M-Channel amp.

However, your desire to have HDMI 1.3 on the Halcro implies a set-up like mine might not work. Is the Halcro going to be the pre/pro, and the Denon essentially just a multi-channel amp for you?

Now if this is the case, then does the Denon have a multi-channel input? If it does, then just hook the Halcro to your mains as usual, and then output the center/surrounds from the Halcro to the Denon’s multi-channel inputs, and of course the center and surround speakers to the Denon. To balance the volume you’ll have to discover what Denon volume matches the mains level and just leave it at that level all the time. You’ll only turn the Denon on for M-Channel and HT.

In any case, the preamp section of the Halcro should far outperform the Denon. You really don’t want to bottleneck the Halcro by running your mains through the Denon. What’s the point of investing in the Halcro if you do that?

How confusing! Does any of this make sense to you???

Do you have an amp already? If so, use a preamp with an HT bypass and hook up all your stereo analog gear to that. If not, then look at something like the NAD Masters M3 integrated with HT bypass and a host of other stereo features. Of course, if you do this, then it may render the Halcro unimportant and the Denon might do just fine for HT part of things.

What do you mean by "proper audiophile stereo playback"? The most important thing in your system is the acoustic room design & treatments. A multi (5+) channel system has a significantly different design target than a 2ch system (in terms of acoustics). In other words, you can't get optimal performance for both types of systems in 1 room.

If you want the 2 speakers to 'work' then hook up the pre-outs from your Denon to your amps.

In other words, you can't get optimal performance for both types of systems in 1 room.

Why is that? I optimized my layout for two channel, but with Meridian processing and room correction for the surround setup my system certainly sounds optimal compared to other dedicated surround rooms I have heard (certainly better than any movie theater I have ever been in)...

I know my 5.1 setup doesn't have the best speaker layout, but I think with the processing, room correction and treatment, the compromises were counteracted sufficiently enough (in the sweet spot at least...).

If not then what am I missing out on, and what do you recommend I use as a demo to hear where my setup is falling short in the surround sound department?

Thanks.

I'm bit confused on how to upgrade my home cinema for proper audiophile stereo playback. I am currently using a Denon 4308 and will upgrade to the Halcro pre when the new one with HDMI 1.3 comes out.

I would like to use dedicated stereo pre/ momo amps on the same front speakers I use for my HC setup. I would like to bypass the Denon completely for my stereo listening. How should I connect the stereo amp to the Denon so that I integrate everything in one setup?

My main music sources are a Kaleidescape Movie and music player with a dcs D to A converter Z and a dcs cd transport.

I recommend you do a Rives Audio consultation... That is what I did. Well worth the money IMO.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/examples/frame.html

What do you mean by "proper audiophile stereo playback"? The most important thing in your system is the acoustic room design & treatments. A multi (5+) channel system has a significantly different design target than a 2ch system (in terms of acoustics). In other words, you can't get optimal performance for both types of systems in 1 room.

If you want the 2 speakers to 'work' then hook up the pre-outs from your Denon to your amps.

I disagree. If you set up your system for great 2 channel, there is no reason whatsoever that 5.1 hirez surround (or 7.1 movie playback for that matter) will be sacrificed. I have a dedicated 2 channel signal path, using my Modwright LS 36.5 tubed stereo preamp for 2 channel listening. It, like many good 2 channel preamps, has an HT bypass (some call it unity gain) that allows for unaltered signal pass-thru when listening to the 5.1 or 7.1 system, using your processor's volume control, not the stereo preamp. Anything short of that will cause too much signal degradation (and possible channel imbalance) for one or the other.

I have my 5.1 system set up in a classic ITU setup, which, again, does not compromise my stereo listening. My front l and r are pulled out significantly into the room for best stereo playback, and my center and surrounds (basically identical to the fronts) are close to equidistant from the listening position. The room is well treated with Ethan's great RealTraps Minitraps in all the typical locations, and some not so typical (a total of 12 traps in the room), along with the sloped ceiling area treated with ASC Tube Traps, especially setup by Art Noxon (the founder) many years ago. My first reflection points are all treated with RealTrap RFZ's as well. My imaging and soundstage for 2 channel is great, and my 5.1 hirez surround system images in 3D as surround should, with good soundstaging front to back and left to right, both in front of me and behind. I also have a dedicated signal path for movie sound (7.1) with different amps and dipole sides and rears for movie/tv sound.

Net/net, I will put my stereo soundstage up against anyone's, and most who have visited believe the 5.1 hirez (SACD, DVD-A) presentation is well-matched and well-balanced. It CAN be done, with a little forethought, and a simple HT bypass capability. Just don't sell short the importance of a well-matched set of 5 speakers for hirez, with the mains, being 2 channel kings, as paramount.

The most important thing in your system is the acoustic room design & treatments.


7.5 out of 10 these well designed rooms sound like crap, so your statement is largely poppycock.

You would need a good quality multi channel analog preamp. Connect the HT pre/pro to the bypass input of the preamp, and connect the audio sources to other inputs. Then connect the output of the preamp to the amp section.

In other words, you can't get optimal performance for both types of systems in 1 room.



A total myth.

You can kill optimal 2-channel performance with an over-damped, strict HT designed room. But if you work on getting the 2-channel working properly first, then design the rest of the HT around that, you can have pretty good success at mixing the two. I have done this. And I know several other people who have done this as well, and have way above average sounding systems. But the key is getting the 2-channel right first.

7.5 out of 10 these well designed rooms sound like crap, so your statement is largely poppycock.

I agree with you to an extent. From my experience, the most important room factor is the dimensions. If they're good, everything else will fall into place. If they're 'okay' you still stand a chance. If they just plain bad, nothing will ever sound good in the room.

Room Treatments themselves can have a positive effect, but are often over prescribed and over emphasized on this forum methinks. It's very easy to over-damp a room with these things. And the high cost of these things would be better spent on higher quality equipment. IMO, when it comes to room treatments, a little goes a long way.

I agree with you to an extent. From my experience, the most important room factor is the dimensions. If they're good, everything else will fall into place. If they're 'okay' you still stand a chance. If they just plain bad, nothing will ever sound good in the room.

Room Treatments themselves can have a positive effect, but are often over prescribed and over emphasized on this forum methinks. It's very easy to over-damp a room with these things. And the high cost of these things would be better spent on higher quality equipment. IMO, when it comes to room treatments, a little goes a long way.

Rutgar, you are spot on. As I state just above your post, mixing 2 channel and HT can work very well if you concentrate on 2 channel first. Also, when I built the HT (in 1987, when we built the house) there was very little experiential data about HT's, but there was one piece of info I followed to a tee....the dimensional relationships of width, depth, height. Build a box or some multiple of each other and you'll never tame it. Build something reasonable within the golden ratios rules and you'll just have to tweek here and there. My problem is that I built too stiff of a room (for sounding insulation from the rest of the house) so any bass nodes stay in there for days! Ethan Winer's wonderful bass traps do the trick, and take care of the bigger issue than nulls and nodes, that is ringing or decay times.

BTW, congrats to Ethan and team for RealTraps being named Stereophile's Accessory of the Year. Well deserved.

Rutgar, you are spot on. As I state just above your post, mixing 2 channel and HT can work very well if you concentrate on 2 channel first. Also, when I built the HT (in 1987, when we built the house) there was very little experiential data about HT's, but there was one piece of info I followed to a tee....the dimensional relationships of width, depth, height. Build a box or some multiple of each other and you'll never tame it. Build something reasonable within the golden ratios rules and you'll just have to tweek here and there.

This is a room dimension study for anyone interested (so people don't feel limited to only golden ratios):

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best

And:

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=index


Here are other acoustic tutorials on similar subjects:

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/

There is no problems with a combined stereo/HT setup, it`s just more expensive :)
My room is about 22m2, not very big by American standards... The speakers are about 3.5 meters apart with the senterchannel dead in the middle.
The stereo imaging is very good and when i switch on the DD18 for movies it`s plenty loud enough, infact i have a problems with lightbulbs dying prematurely due to the low frequency bass...
I think that the notion that HT and stereo can`t be combined stems from people that absolutely needs to listen to a movie at THX reference levels and then some. The few times i go to a regular cinema i often find the volume to be so high it`s distracting from the movie experiance.

QueueCumber,
Thanks for the ratio table. It's nice for those folks looking to build/remodel. I used the somewhat classic 1:1.51:2.12 ratio (confirmed in your table) and it works nicely. I wouldn't have used sloped ceilings, though, if I do over. Although non-parallel surfaces are good for the most part, the ceiling area can also act as a parabolic mirror in my case. Just needed more reflection treatment.

Here's my room (this pic was taken when the center channel was being swapped). Moreover, another change coming: All new SP Tech Revelations before Christmas. Stewart Studiotek 130 110" screen behind the diffusor drapes. The other attachment is a drawing of the dual/tri-purpose room, and what I'm going to do to give better viewing angles. I make it tough right now for the side chairs because I treasure my 2 channel speaker locations :):

I totally agree with Rutgar and ted_b. I too am 2-channel biased and had hired TM Labs for my acoustic consulting. The results are fantastic and saved me a lot of time and significant money.

As Rutgar suggests, like many others here I was about to take the "forum" advice and embark on a huge project of building lots of absorption and sound control. It turned out that I was already over damped. All I had to do was remove some 4" absorbers and add some diffusion at a specific location. Hiring Terry Montlick (TM Labs) was one of the smartest things I'd ever done in audio.

teb_b - what are you using for you curtains to call them diffusers? I could probably use some of that.

Dave,
They are a light poly/cotton (mostly poly), just a bit softer than shower curtains. I did not want heavy anything (velvet, lined, etc.) to become an absorber. I just wanted something to take the flat screen surface out of the soundstage. I purposefully left in lots of folds, pleats. They work wonderfully and I can hear MUCH better imaging with them closed. I'm putting real diffusors on the back wall (behind me 7 feet) soon, too. In the meantime I have album and cd shelves/racks and they do ok to break it up a bit; nothing like a good diffusor though.

My system is a 2 channel listening system FIRST, and a home theater system SECOND.

How I do this:

I have a 2-channel preamp with no less than ten inputs and four send/return loops. (Tape loops, etc) It's extremely quiet and when I'm listening to 2-channel music, my signal path is from the CD player to the preamp, from
the preamp to the Krell monoblocks that are my main (front) amps, and then onl to the speakers.

In movie mode, well, here's where it gets a bit complicated. I could simplify this setup a LOT by buying the right piece of gear, but I got this setup for
almost nothing so I deal with its complexity.


I have a Marantz surround processor. (Dolby Digital) It takes my digital link
from the DVD player and outputs discrete channels. The L/R front outputs
go to the first preamp I mentioned, on a different input.

The other outputs go (surrounds and center) to the direct surround and center inputs on a Pioneer DD-capable receiver with discrete inputs. This
receiver is used ONLY as a power amp for the surround and center channels.

The LFE channel goes to a separate filter and amp chain heading for the subwoofer. I also derive an LFE channel from stereo signals via the same processing chain.

So I've got three volume knobs to juggle when watching movies. I have to
be careful about level matching.


It's complex and maybe a bit silly, but it works and doesn't require me to
compromise on preamp quality when I'm listening to 2-channel music.


CJ

CJ – If I understand you correctly, the Pioneer receiver is the multi-channel pre-amp as well as the power amp because it also controls their volume…right? I think you might have two more simple options (even though you don't specify if you have separate CD and DVD players). I am also a little lost on your sub/LFE set-up and honestly don’t see the need for the Marantz DD processor when the Pioneer is also a DD processor:

Option 1 - this has the fewest cables and takes the Marantz out of the loop since it and the receiver are capable of the same thing…if I understand this correctly.

1) Hook your 2 channel set-up as if there is no HT 1st (CD->preamp->amp->speakers)
2) Hook your DVD player to your receiver via the digital coax/optical input and allow the receiver to do the movie processing.
3) Use the pre-outputs (found on most receivers) and hook them up to an available input on your pre-amp.

Now to make this work your center, surrounds and sub are connected as normal from the receiver and your front mains are hooked to your Krells. This take the marantz processor out of the loop since the receiver accomplished the same thing and gives you some new space on your rack. You need to find a level on your preamp that matches the other channels and simply leave it there and the volume will vary along with the receiver's level. Keep in mind, this pre-amp level might be pretty high.

Option 2 – more cables.
1) Hook your 2 channel set-up as if there is no HT 1st (CD->preamp->amp->speakers)
2) Only change the front left and right channel connections. Go from the Marantz processor to the front left and right inputs on the receiver instead of the pre-amp.
3) Then use the pre-outputs on the receiver (as described above) to your preamp and find that unity gain level and leave it there when watching movies.

Again, like in option 1 the receiver volume will move all the channels together.

I still am not sure what you’re doing with the sub/LFE, and am not too sure what the advantage of using the Marantz is.

Another warning, when changing inputs on your pre-amp remember to turn it down! The pre-amp level you’ll need will be pretty high (unity gain).

Either of these solutions keeps your two channel set-up intact...the same way I do.

OK – so what have I missed?

Well, one thing I know is that ted_b has a very nice room and charris would do well to emulate it!

I don't think you can have both without compromising one of them. It simply comes down to the screen. You can't have a proper cinema setup without having the speakers behind the screen. You can't have a proper 2-channel system with the speakers behind a screen. The screen itself will affect proper imaging of a 2-channel system. Yes you can do a decent job, but one or both will be a compromise.

Well, one thing I know is that ted_b has a very nice room and charris would do well to emulate it!

Thanks Michael. That's a nice thing to say.
:)

That's a thought, regarding my extra equipment, but I'll have to think about it and try some wiring options and see what works for me.

I can tell you that the Marantz processor is a better processor, and more versatile, than
the one in the Pioneer receiver. That's the primary reason the Marantz unit is still in the system, though its capabilities are (mostly) duplicated by the Pioneer unit.

A critical requirement is that the mains must always be running in the best signal path
I can provide, whether in stereo or in movie mode. And the Pioneer receiver doesn't
have variable level preamp outputs, only line level outputs, so it can't connect to the
Krells directly as I'd have no volume control.

What I really need is three separate channels of amplification for the center and rears.

Essentially, that's all that the Pioneer receiver provides.


My subwoofer signal path: Actually there are two. The stereo path consists of
taps off the preamp outputs, run through low pass filters and not one but two graphic
EQs to give a really steep EQ slope at the cutoff frequency. The output is fed to the
CS-800 power amp to the sub.

The theater mode path consists of the LFE channel from the Marantz processor, run
into the second EQ's recording input, and then to the sub amp.

This way, I can switch between two different signals to drive the subs. This can
have its advantages. Sometimes, the LFE channel is better, and sometimes, the
sub channel that's derived from the L/R stereo outputs is better.

And there IS no LFE channel in regular stereo, so it's nice to be able to derive one
from the stereo signal.


CJ

Holy Moly...this is complicated. I fear a little too much so for me...

By any chance does the Marantz have a volume control? What's the model?

Does your sub use an external amp and does it have more than one input (summing inputs)?

First off, I cannot imagine adjusting three volumes can actually work. The software varies in the way it's recorded too much to really know unless you listen at exact pre-determined levels.

I run dual subs, even for two-channel, and I only got the level matched properly with the mains when I used REW and RplusD measurement software. Actually the Velodyne SMS-1 go me there first. Getting the phase right is even more challenging. REW (Room EQ Wizard) is free BTW and you can use a Radio Shack SPL meter if you don't have anything else. I also use an Outlaw Audio ICBM which is a discontinued item, but really helps integrate subs into a multi-use arrangement.

The challenge, as I see it, is the volume control for movies. To make this work well, it should be one knob for all the speakers together...or am I still missing something?

I agree with you to an extent. From my experience, the most important room factor is the dimensions. If they're good, everything else will fall into place. If they're 'okay' you still stand a chance. If they just plain bad, nothing will ever sound good in the room.

Room Treatments themselves can have a positive effect, but are often over prescribed and over emphasized on this forum methinks. It's very easy to over-damp a room with these things. And the high cost of these things would be better spent on higher quality equipment. IMO, when it comes to room treatments, a little goes a long way.

Agreed, but when a room is treated with a target RT60 spec in mind, it should be fine. Its when people throw room acoustical treatments in without any spec in mind, they start overdampening the highs, while the bass goes largely untreated etc...

When I run the full system, I run it with the Marantz volume control as the system master volume. The other volumes (in total there are three, not counting the separate level controls for the Peavey CS-800 commercial power amp driving the stereo subwoofer..which answers some questions...) are set to unity gain. Or the 0 dB indicator, in other words. I have to be careful with this setup as it wouldn't necessarily
be fun, or a good idea, to reconfigure the system without dropping those cranked volume controls.

I determine the actual 0 dB reference level settings by running the other preamps
through the Marantz's tape loop and adjusting for equal level with the loop switched in
and switched out. I use my SPL meter to verify this rather than trust my ears.

I'd be happy to dump this setup for a Krell Showcase...anyone got a spare lying around? :D


CJ