Why are we so excited about HDMI when coaxial cable does the same thing? We have all these new exotic connections, but it's a coaxial cable from my hi def Satellite to the Digital box. I don't get it, but I'm sure some one here will straighten me out!!

Joey

I don't get itThat is apparent. :rolleyes:

Educate yourself. (http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#q1_1)

I'm not that excited about it. (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi.htm)

I'm not that excited about it. (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi.htm)


Neither am I, but it is currently the industry's preferred method of transmission for hi resolution audio tracks. Unless there is some major change or announcement from the industry string pullers, HDMI is the only way to role right now if you want the full next gen sound experience.

From what I have read from those who have access to the latest LPCM audio, while they have issues, it would seem the pros out weigh the cons with their HDMI audio equipped processors.

Aside from one's opinion of the physical connector; is it fair to say that HDMI's main gremlin is the studio's obsession with copyright enforcement?

Aside from one's opinion of the physical connector; is it fair to say that HDMI's main gremlin is the studio's obsession with copyright enforcement?

If by that you mean the continual HDCP handshaking, then yes that is also my main practical complaint. I don't think the handshaking issue is related to any hardware issues, it would happen with any next generation interface. As I'm about to run a fairly lengthy HDMI run for my projector I guess I'll discover the other hardware issues for myself.

If by that you mean the continual HDCP handshaking, then yes that is also my main practical complaint. I don't think the handshaking issue is related to any hardware issues, it would happen with any next generation interface. As I'm about to run a fairly lengthy HDMI run for my projector I guess I'll discover the other hardware issues for myself.


Hi Mukha,

You make a good point; even if the so-called connector of connectors were invented, the "suits" would muddy it up with HDCP. I do think though, that HDMI is here to stay and everyone will just have to learn to love it.

With time and firmware, most of the HDMI pieces usually "stabilize" :)

Regards,

Sean

That is apparent. :rolleyes:

Educate yourself. (http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#q1_1)

Looks like propaganda t me. I do understand why for the audio side but due to too many issues with HDMI I still use a toslink conection for audio and component for video.

It is propaganda/marketing, but what organization does not promote it's product or idea. HDMI appears to be a major issue for some with handshakes and costing people money to acquire the latest and greatest. When it functions properly, I am sure it's a winner. When it does not, it can become a troubleshooting stress bowl. It doesn't appear that HDMI is going away in the near future, so we will need to live with it and either use previous connection methodology or adjust to the new connectivity. I am pretty much in your court Joey, but I am still open to the new technology without a lot of experience with HDMI.

The standards have issues and the connectors have issues.Hand shake problems are rife,the connectors don't have a positive lock so are unreliable IMO.

Joey ,you aren't the only one shaking your head trust me.

Art

Since HDMI carries audio and video in a tiny solid core wire does this totally prove that esoteric cabling is a waste of money? Or do you believe that this is all marketing and the cheapest way to connect for the manufacturers?

Why are we so excited about HDMI when coaxial cable does the same thing?Can coaxial carry 1080p/60 video and 8 channels of 96/24 audio?

Sanjay

What an interconnet is SUPPOSED to do vs what it ACTUALLY does are usually two completely different things. I'm with Art and the issues with HDMI. One source to one video device usually works fine, add a switcher or processor into the mix and you can easily be asking for problems.

Well ...hdmi is not a "REAL" improvement over component..
except for cable clutter...........

Since I already have one heck of a audio setup I definately like the cable reduction ..... but I definately dont like the hdcp problems that hdmi brings with it...though I bypassed the problem by the only other way to hookup my stuff ..

The standards have issues and the connectors have issues.Hand shake problems are rife,the connectors don't have a positive lock so are unreliable IMO.

Joey ,you aren't the only one shaking your head trust me.

Art


The lack of a positive lock is a big one! These things are always coming loose. Stupid, STUPID design.

As far as the handshaking goes, is that problem due to the cable, or more to HDCP and the communications between the devices themselves.

Why are we so excited about HDMI when coaxial cable does the same thing? We have all these new exotic connections, but it's a coaxial cable from my hi def Satellite to the Digital box. I don't get it, but I'm sure some one here will straighten me out!!

Joey

Joey,

I'm not the one here on this Forum to straighten this HDMI cable situation out, but I will get very exact as to what and how it has effected my HT come this Friday Evening after the tech leaves my Home and I have the time to see how things go.

Terry

There is a definite signal to noise ratio and bandwith advantage to HDMI. One MUST MAKE IT WORK.

Why are we so excited about HDMI when coaxial cable does the same thing? We have all these new exotic connections, but it's a coaxial cable from my hi def Satellite to the Digital box. I don't get it, but I'm sure some one here will straighten me out!!

Joey

Lay consumers and CE manufacturers are excited because it simplifies hookup of devices since audio and video can be sent across the same connection.

High-enders require it to get high-res audio, something you cannot do at all with SPDIF.

Video geeks are mixed, because HDMI is difficult to do over distance, the connector sucks, and ideally we'd have HD-SDI or the like instead. But nifty consumer-friendly things win the day, it seems CE companies think that consumers are allergic to BNC connectors, or any competent professional locking connector. However, from a performance standpoint, DVI while it can do more, on most devices is limited to 8-bit RGB. Doing 10 or 12 bit (though in YCbCR) on HDMI can be very advantageous.

That is apparent.

Educate yourself.

That's what I'm doing.

That's what I'm doing.So, did you learn anything from the link I provided?

There is a definite signal to noise ratio and bandwith advantage to HDMI. One MUST MAKE IT WORK.

Who should make it work Peter?

It is the CE manufacturers that must make it work: preferably before a product is released to the market: that means a lot of integration testing because the interface is so complex...and there is this handshake/ CP business

There is an entire forum here on AVS: HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=168) where a prominent exec involved in HDMI standards used to post: we have not seen him post for a while

From what I have seen, many custom installers are still quite frustrated with HDMI, and will often end up using component video feeds [sometimes without admitting to their customers the HDMI feed never quite worked]

Why is it that component video works pretty much every time and HDMI is still not ready for prime time?

The Videophile should make it work; wether it is an "owner" or a "custom installer that cares". Your statement about the custom installers resorting (last minute) to component is 100% correct. Last year when my job was to crank out over 3 dozen 18-75k plasma systems in Naples, 2 out of 3 hdmi would have problems. In all of the units installed on plasma lifts the connectors would slide out, but the rest were plain handshake issues. At the same time it was a pity and a blessing as you could sell a 3 meter silver component cable (which I believe to generally have more pop than copper). A silver component cable is ALSO 4 times more expensive/profitable than it's hdmi silver coated counterpart.

Speaking personally, that is the difference between being a custom installation designer/salesperson and being an advanced systems prototyper (my new incarnation), in the later case we will make it work, even if it requires trying multiple black box interfaces or automated re-booting countermeasures (the owner must understand this is a small price to pay for ultimate performance).

when you add in multiple black box gizmos to make an HDMI path work consider that the the original advantages you cited above (definite signal to noise ratio and bandwith advantage) are also compromised

and you have spent a heck of a lot of time and money trying to fix something that you should not have to fix

For most installs I doubt the customer is going to see or hear a difference anyway

In my own HT, I spent a lot of time and money upgrading from a component video matrix switcher (Key Digital 8x4) to an all HDMI path (Gefen HDMI 4x4 matrix switcher): what I got was much slower switching, problematic feeds, audio issues, a defective Gefen switch, and more

I went back to using the Key Digital switch: the component video feed looks great and the switching is instantaneous: and no HDCP issues

Who should make it work Peter?

It is the CE manufacturers that must make it work: preferably before a product is released to the market: that means a lot of integration testing because the interface is so complex...and there is this handshake/ CP business

There is an entire forum here on AVS: HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=168) where a prominent exec involved in HDMI standards used to post: we have not seen him post for a while

From what I have seen, many custom installers are still quite frustrated with HDMI, and will often end up using component video feeds [sometimes without admitting to their customers the HDMI feed never quite worked]

Why is it that component video works pretty much every time and HDMI is still not ready for prime time?

Now I will not have to wait until the tech shows back up this Friday morning to complete my install before I come back here to finish my comments.

This is for the most part (Exactly) what I would have said in the above post by markrubin: Well-Said !!!!! HDMI/DVI is not ready for the main stream public sector and it is not a SECRET:

HDMI/DVI as far as I can tell from the little bit I have been using it is a (JOKE). For just a normal person not a tech person trying to get the HMDI/DVI to work is (PATHETIC) and I have to believe that the AV (Audio Video) Dealers that install that connection have wished a MILLION-TIMES that they just went with the [Component] that "WORKS".

My comments here are voiced all over any Forum by members and how HDMI/DVI is nothing but a PAIN. The Hand-Shake is Pathetic: It will not stay on.

When the tech comes back to my home I can assure everyone I will make sure this go around that the Component is working and when I go to DVI if it does as usual (Not-Work) I will simply go to Component and forget it.

BTW, In my case the picture looks better with (Component) than the (DVI) so go figure. And when I checked with others I have found out that in many cases the Component is the Superior Picture. Plus it "WORKS".


Terry

On a 63 fujitsu (plasmas are the second highest MTF displays out there after 3 chip dlp)I have never ever been able to make component look as clean and sterile as hdmi. The old DPI mercury 3 chippers were a different kind of animal as their saturation feature on component trumped a washed out HDMI picture, but the latest gen high end plasmas scream for the signal-sterility of hdmi. The new generation of digital cinema pj's are designed from the ground up for digital signals, I have no choice there.

BTW, In my case the picture looks better with (Component) than the (DVI) so go figure. And when I checked with others I have found out that in many cases the Component is the Superior Picture. Plus it "WORKS".


Terry

That's all fine and dandy, except aren't we being forced to forgo component for HDMI, since many HD devices 'dumb down' 1080p to 720p over component?

Can coaxial carry 1080p/60 video and 8 channels of 96/24 audio?

Sanjay

SMPTE 424M spec HD SDI can do that with a single cable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_424M

But no hdcp.

I don't think there is any forced down rezzing going on with any source yet: you can still feed 1080i over component video

1080p with HDCP is another story

Lay consumers and CE manufacturers are excited because it simplifies hookup of devices since audio and video can be sent across the same connection.

High-enders require it to get high-res audio, something you cannot do at all with SPDIF.

Video geeks are mixed, because HDMI is difficult to do over distance, the connector sucks, and ideally we'd have HD-SDI or the like instead. But nifty consumer-friendly things win the day, it seems CE companies think that consumers are allergic to BNC connectors, or any competent professional locking connector. However, from a performance standpoint, DVI while it can do more, on most devices is limited to 8-bit RGB. Doing 10 or 12 bit (though in YCbCR) on HDMI can be very advantageous.Nice summary. It ain't perfect for anyone but it is a solution for all. I did see a latching HDMI male cable connector that was backward-compatible with existing HDMI chassis connectors. Hope it catches on.

But no hdcp.Sure but, as we all know, that's why the media industry doesn't want it. Let's be realistic: Everybody has a dog in this fight.

SMPTE 424M spec HD SDI can do that with a single cable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_424MNo mention of audio, let alone hi-rez multi-channel or bitstreaming.

Sanjay

Nice summary. It ain't perfect for anyone but it is a solution for all. I did see a latching HDMI male cable connector that was backward-compatible with existing HDMI chassis connectors. Hope it catches on.


Linky please !:)

art

Linky please !:)

artI wish. It was at CEDIA and, trusting the guy to send me literature and a sample, I neglected to keep any info. Sorry.

when you add in multiple black box gizmos to make an HDMI path work consider that the the original advantages you cited above (definite signal to noise ratio and bandwith advantage) are also compromised

and you have spent a heck of a lot of time and money trying to fix something that you should not have to fix

For most installs I doubt the customer is going to see or hear a difference anyway

In my own HT, I spent a lot of time and money upgrading from a component video matrix switcher (Key Digital 8x4) to an all HDMI path (Gefen HDMI 4x4 matrix switcher): what I got was much slower switching, problematic feeds, audio issues, a defective Gefen switch, and more

I went back to using the Key Digital switch: the component video feed looks great and the switching is instantaneous: and no HDCP issues

Mark I use the Gefen HDMI 2x2 matrix switch and the Cat-5 extender to drive a 20m. cable run without any real issues. It does take a moment for my AE-1000u to resynch but for my application I'm not looking for instantaneous switching. I still have my component run installed and in all honesty the PQ improvement for the HDMI connection is mostly subtle but on some BR discs you can really see some better color saturation.

I guess I agree with Peter, having the ability to do a side by side comparison between HDMI and component I find myself always using the HDMI.

John

Linky please !:)Here's one:

http://www.bestdealcables.com/hdmiballmount.aspx

Sanjay

Gefen has an HDMI cable with an effective locking device: molded into each connector end is a single floating screw much like on a DVI connector: it screws into a locking collar which is integrated in the HDMI jack behind the chassis: they should have done that from day one but I have only seen it implemented in the 4x4 matrix switcher

http://sewelldirect.com/Gefen-HDMI-Locking-Cable-Male-to-Male.asp?source=froogle&utm_source=Froogle&utm_medium=cse

There are a lot of complaints of users breaking HDMI input jacks on flat screen TV's: and the manufacturer will not cover that under warranty: in many of these cases the HDMI jack is PC board mounted and there is no strain relief: so a repair usually involves replacement of the whole board :(

Here's one:

http://www.bestdealcables.com/hdmiballmount.aspx

Sanjay

Interesting,thanks !

Art

I rather liked SDI and ILink as a combo. Too many handshake issues, Video Level differences and HDCP restrictions with HDMI.

Here's one:

http://www.bestdealcables.com/hdmiballmount.aspx

SanjayThe problems with those (and the Gefens) are that they require retrofitting the chassis connectors and the chassis connectors must have external mounting screws.

The problems with those (and the Gefens) are that they require retrofitting the chassis connectors and the chassis connectors must have external mounting screws.Are there locking connectors that don't require such retrofitting? If so, what do they lock on to?

Sanjay

Can coaxial carry 1080p/60 video and 8 channels of 96/24 audio?

Sanjay
:rolleyes:

Gosh it better... Since a single piece of RG6 coming into my house is carrying my 6MB/s internet... along with about 20 some channels of HD content.. along with hundreds of other channels many with DD audio tracks. Not to mention ondemand bandwidth.... etc...

And similar coaxial cable transmits many GB/sec over long distances for other transport applications.

What it comes down to is that the whole standard is bunk for so many reasons. Funny how this standard relies so heavily on cable quality yet most other high speed data physical connections and transport protocols are robust and use pretty generic "cheap" cable and connectors with no issue. It's really a bunch of junk pushed on us by the industry.

No mention of audio, let alone hi-rez multi-channel or bitstreaming.

Sanjay

According to Wiki HD SDI can do 16 Channels of 24/48.

According to Wiki HD SDI can do 16 Channels of 24/48.Thanx, didn't see that on the page linked earlier. I'd heard of SDI and HD SDI, but never read up on the specs.

Sanjay

Are there locking connectors that don't require such retrofitting? If so, what do they lock on to?

SanjayIIRC, there were 1 or 2 spring clips that latched onto the HDMI socket.

Gosh it better... Since a single piece of RG6 coming into my house is carrying my 6MB/s internet... along with about 20 some channels of HD content.. along with hundreds of other channels many with DD audio tracks. Not to mention ondemand bandwidth.... etc...

And similar coaxial cable transmits many GB/sec over long distances for other transport applications.

What it comes down to is that the whole standard is bunk for so many reasons. Funny how this standard relies so heavily on cable quality yet most other high speed data physical connections and transport protocols are robust and use pretty generic "cheap" cable and connectors with no issue. It's really a bunch of junk pushed on us by the industry.

EXACTLY!!!

The HDMI design as a whole seems flawed to me.
The physical connector itself is an exercise in bad design. They (HDMI org.) must have known that the consumer would be asking for longer HDMI cables, better shielded ones etc. The only way to make that happen is to make the cable itself thicker, thus creating problems with HDMI cables falling out, damaging the HDMI port etc.
Why not go with a locking system like I-link or USB for the HDMI plug?
The problems with HDCP seems to be smaller than a few years ago, but for consumers with advanced setups, where the HDMI cable is put through switches. I imagine there is still a bit of problems with syncing the HDCP signal.
HDMI also have much higher jitter than regular spdif.
The fact that so manny consumers feel cheated when they thought their two year old HDMI equipped tv was state of the art, no longer is so because of the ever evolving state of the HDMI spec. i can`t seem to remember that spdif, rca, xlr, tos-link or bnc cables ever came in several diffrent versions - they all just plain worked right out of the box!

I'm just at a loss how we've got to this point and the how the industry supports the flawed standard across the board. I think the idea is great... Just the execution doesn't even pass the common sense test.

The only benefit I can tell is that it is easier for the big box retailers to recover margin. They sure aren't getting it on the low cost dvd players etc.. but it's easy to sure stick it to ya when they say ..... oh by the way for that 40 dollar DVD player to work it's best you need this hundred dollar cable to make it all sing.. and wouldn't you know it.. not a generic reasonably priced cable to be found anywhere in the store.

More I think of it.... there seems to be mainly 2 reasons for this junk.. 1. to satisfy the HDCP studios... and 2. to allow retailers to regain margin and stay alive.

You'd think that after the terrible S-VHS plugs that they wouldn't make newer technology similarly lousy connectors again!!!@@@

The October issue of "Widescreen Review" magazine has an interesting article on some of the problems with HDMI.

The October issue of "Widescreen Review" magazine has an interesting article on some of the problems with HDMI.
I will pick up that issue I would like to read what they have to say.

Terry

The October issue of "Widescreen Review" magazine has an interesting article on some of the problems with HDMI.
The article is 8 full pages long with no pictures.
Some of the points covered:
Six versions of HDMI cables.
Connectors breaking.
Test standards.
Portable testing units.

The article is 8 full pages long with no pictures.
Some of the points covered:
Six versions of HDMI cables.
Connectors breaking.
Test standards.
Portable testing units.

Thanks, I hope that issue is still in the stores at this time. I may be to LATE already as usually the issues are like a month ahead. Now that I think about it I bet the December Issue is already in the stores. :(


Terry

The world should be made of nothing but XLR and Speakon connectors and variations thereof.

Can you see it now, an Ipod nano with an XLR on the end of it..:D

The world should be made of nothing but XLR and Speakon connectors and variations thereof.

Can you see it now, an Ipod nano with an XLR on the end of it..:D

:confused: Curt, maybe if I new what that was ;)

Have a Nice Day Big-Guy :D

Just messing with YOU !!! You deserve it. :)

Terry

BTW, Do you remember what day tomorrow is ????

Link to the first page of the "Widescreen Review" article:
http://www2.widescreenreview.com/flashserver.php?filename=124sample.swf&centrofilos=IUPOIeXBiuMXXcO_-rQbiCIA7NF9PS1QNrMF72kUN-UnL47ydaRMOkFKsvMdheFl

No mention of audio, let alone hi-rez multi-channel or bitstreaming.

Sanjay

http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/HDSDI

Please read the section on embedded audio.

[B][COLOR="Blue"]:confused: Curt, maybe if I new what that was ;)

BTW, Do you remember what day tomorrow is ????

Google is your friend.

Both of those items are commercial grade connectors, unlike those flimsy unreliable consumer grade HDMI connectors..:)

I expect a full report here tout de suite by the end of the day re your system.

:)

:rolleyes:

Gosh it better... Since a single piece of RG6 coming into my house is carrying my 6MB/s internet... along with about 20 some channels of HD content.. along with hundreds of other channels many with DD audio tracks. Not to mention ondemand bandwidth.... etc...

And similar coaxial cable transmits many GB/sec over long distances for other transport applications.

What it comes down to is that the whole standard is bunk for so many reasons. Funny how this standard relies so heavily on cable quality yet most other high speed data physical connections and transport protocols are robust and use pretty generic "cheap" cable and connectors with no issue. It's really a bunch of junk pushed on us by the industry.



Wouldn't most of those data on the RG6 be compressed data which have rigorous error correction routine in the codec whereas the most critical complaint against hdmi occour when it is required to carry uncompressed video data with no error correction on the display to compensate for degradation caused by the poor cable quality?

Hey guys....you seem smart, what hdmi cord should I purchase for my new Sony Xbr4 46' LCD. The television is hooked into a DirecTV HD/DVR and I am getting some static when I change the channel. Thanks.

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