To have a 5080 professionally calibrated if your pretty good at getting a natural picture yourself?

Thanks, Bill

Not sure on the 5080 but I'm having Eliab from Avical do my 940 this coming Tuesday. I think I have a pretty nice picture dialed in now - but I'm looking forward to seeing if Eliab can squeeze any more out of the 940. I'll let you know the outcome.

Greetings

Is it worth it? Depends on what the need is for an accurate image. Are you looking for an image that is accurate or merely something that looks good to you? If the latter, then forget about professional calibration.

If the former, then what does you liking the image have to do with it? It is about making the image as correct as possible.

Two biggest questions that people ask themselves when it comes to pro calibration is ... "will I see a difference?" and "will I like what a calibrated image looks like?"

Answers are far more complex than what you might think.

The quest for an accurate image is the quest for the answer to the question of what is 2+2=? The calibrator will provide you with the answer of 4 ... but will you like "4"? What if you like 9 more ... 30 more? That's too bad then because accurate images are not about whether you like it or not.

However, after understanding the calibration process and why we should be there ... most clients do appreciate the end result ...

Regards

Greetings

Is it worth it? Depends on what the need is for an accurate image. Are you looking for an image that is accurate or merely something that looks good to you? If the latter, then forget about professional calibration.

If the former, then what does you liking the image have to do with it? It is about making the image as correct as possible.

Two biggest questions that people ask themselves when it comes to pro calibration is ... "will I see a difference?" and "will I like what a calibrated image looks like?"

Answers are far more complex than what you might think.

The quest for an accurate image is the quest for the answer to the question of what is 2+2=? The calibrator will provide you with the answer of 4 ... but will you like "4"? What if you like 9 more ... 30 more? That's too bad then because accurate images are not about whether you like it or not.

However, after understanding the calibration process and why we should be there ... most clients do appreciate the end result ...

Regards

Now what do you do about someone like me - who combines measurements and patterns with instinct & common sense? I know how things *should* look in real life and adjust TVs accordingly. Patterns are good as a base point, such as color bars & PLUGE patterns. They establish a standard, a base point. And geometry & overscan? A pattern for these is mandatory! Grayscale - no question.

From there, I can apply a little "fudge factor", and get things pretty close to what they look like in person.

Greetings

:)

Last time I looked, we humans have better vision than what HDTV can do. I don't need my vision to look like HD ... it is a downgrade.

Regards

Just a comment..I was sorta wondering if having my 52XBR5 would really make a difference..the answer was..yes indeed..I thought it "looked good" before....but I think there's a difference between just looking good..and looking realistic..I had my Sony LCD calibrated by Gregg Loewen this past Wednesday..and I really gotta say..it make's a big difference!..The stuff look's "real" now..like looking thru a window..I was watching the show NCIS..and when a car went into the Potomac River (yuk!)..the underwater scenes looked real, murkiness & all..alomg with the fine sediment that was in the water. The actors faces looked "real" too..not like I was watching a brilliant TV screen with brilliant fleshtone colors...so..is it worth it?...if you want to see the real deal..yes it is..worth every penny! Again..just an opinion from a satisfied customer!:)

Now what do you do about someone like me - who combines measurements and patterns with instinct & common sense? I know how things *should* look in real life and adjust TVs accordingly. Patterns are good as a base point, such as color bars & PLUGE patterns. They establish a standard, a base point. And geometry & overscan? A pattern for these is mandatory! Grayscale - no question.

From there, I can apply a little "fudge factor", and get things pretty close to what they look like in person.

I love your attitude and wish more calibrators took your position. Why can't a customer have accurate colors and good contrast/brightness without the picture being so soft and dark that it's like your in a cave? This inflexibility on the part of the calibrator is what gives the profession a bad name and the reason many customer switch settings the minute the calibrator walks out the door

Greetings

This would be interesting if modern calibrations on digital displays actually resulted in a dark image. Well they don't.

The comment sounds like it comes from someone who has never seen what a modern calibration actually entails. My clients are shown exactly what happens to the image when they boost the light output and there is no misunderstanding here. There is nothing to be gained with extreme detail loss in the bright end or severe color shifts that also come along for the ride.

In fact, clients are informed that they should turn down the light output should the calibrated image cause eye fatigue.

Best to watch what current calibrations actually achieve before blindly stating that the end result is too dark.

Regards

Greetings

Is it worth it? Depends on what the need is for an accurate image. Are you looking for an image that is accurate or merely something that looks good to you? If the latter, then forget about professional calibration.

If the former, then what does you liking the image have to do with it? It is about making the image as correct as possible.

Two biggest questions that people ask themselves when it comes to pro calibration is ... "will I see a difference?" and "will I like what a calibrated image looks like?"

Answers are far more complex than what you might think.

The quest for an accurate image is the quest for the answer to the question of what is 2+2=? The calibrator will provide you with the answer of 4 ... but will you like "4"? What if you like 9 more ... 30 more? That's too bad then because accurate images are not about whether you like it or not.

However, after understanding the calibration process and why we should be there ... most clients do appreciate the end result ...

Regards


Amen. What a great answer. The calibrator who did my Mits 65813 showed and explained every action he took. And, he showed that color can be precisely measured. I just went to get a consult for Lasik surgery. The doctor said that any two people are not likely to see the exact same things when looking at the same image. So, accurate is the truth and that can not be changed.

Bottom line..until you let one of the Pros from here calibrate your individual display..you don't know what you're missing...A couple of the best in the business frequent this forum (& others)..Copying settings helps..but nothing like getting your individulal set done....:):)

From there, I can apply a little "fudge factor", and get things pretty close to what they look like in person.
How can you know what a program looked like "in person?" Were you there to see how the image appeared on the post production monitor when it was mastered?

The primary goal of the entire video production community is preserving the integrity of the original program signal. A program producer does not want his work contaminated, altered, compromised, distorted, "fudged" or lost on its way to his intended audience.

Your concept of "real life" is subjective and likely not fully valid for anyone else but you. What if it's different than how a program's originator conceived it should be. What do you do with "The Matrix" and it's dominant green tint during half the movie? Is your concept of "real life" tinted green? The producer of the program wanted it green. Would you try to un-green the program because it didn't fit your concept of "common sense" or "intuition."

Image fidelity is the goal of device calibration. "Real life" as you call it, has absolutely NOTHING to do with image fidelity. Image fidelity is simply faithfulness to the original picture. Original video programs are mastered on calibrated monitors, which have been aligned to industry standards via test patterns and expensive instruments. This is done so the program will look the same on every calibrated monitor it's displayed on, today, tomorrow, and the next day. Unless you are in the post-production studio, with every director, producer, colorist. cinematographer, and telecine technician, to view the final approval of the appearance of the program, you can't possibly know what the picture is supposed to look like.

Display accuracy is judged according to imaging industry standards and practices, not anyone's "common sense," "intuition," or sense of "reality." The signal path should be neutral, not "fudged." Test patterns are specifically designed to be neutral. No viewer is neutral. Video excellence is "all about the art," as Joe Kane likes to say. It's definitely not "all about the calibrator," or "all about the individual veiwer's opinion."

The only honest answer to the original poster's question is, "Calibration is worth it to anyone interested in image fidelity and achieving the most accurate performance possible from their display." As Michael was saying, whether the customer "likes" the result is irrelevant. Anyone who has been in this industry very long knows full well that the majority of consumers prefer distorted images and ill-adjusted TVs. They don't like accurate pictures or care one whit about image fidelity. Most probably like fudge as well.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Why can't a customer have accurate colors and good contrast/brightness without the picture being so soft and dark that it's like your in a cave? This inflexibility on the part of the calibrator is what gives the profession a bad name and the reason many customer switch settings the minute the calibrator walks out the door
Standards tend to be inflexible.

Precision is usually a narrow and specific condition.

Accurate colors, good contrast/brightness, soft, dark (cave like), are hardly mutually inclusive. I have never left a calibrated display looking soft. Dark can be relative to the characteristics of the display and the viewing environment. If the projector or TV will not deliver a stable image with the contrast held below a certain point (especially common with CRTs), it must be viewed in a darker environment. This should be explained to the customer by the technician. You make these pronouncements like you know how every calibration service turns out. Your assertions are simply that- assertions.

It's my understanding that what gives my profession a bad name is poor calibrators, not insistence on adherence to standards, device accuracy and image fidelity. If a potential calibration customer does not understand the correct goal of my services, I won't do the work. Display accuracy and image fidelity have absolutely nothing to do with "liking" the results. I already know that most consumers prefer over-saturated color, edge 'enhancement,' blue whites, and all sorts of other image distortion. Therefore, they will probably not like a calibrated image and "switch settings the minute" I would walk out the door.

A professional calibration service should include: documentation of the before and after performance of the display, recommendations for correct viewing environment conditions, explanation of what the picture controls do, and addressing the questions of customer. The stated goal of calibration should not be to make the picture look "better," unless the meaning of "better" is clearly defined. If "better" does not mean "as accurate as possible, according to video industry standards and recommended practice," then the goal is not a calibrated display. The goal must be image fidelity, not some individual's opinion of what an acceptable picture is. How would you measure for that?

If I sound a bit frustrated, it's because I am. There are way too many people who think they know what display calibration is for, but simply do not. These are foundational, fundamental, thoroughly documented, and plainly logical issues and principles that should be clear to anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of video. Unfortunately, this is not true for many people who have been taught correctly, but simply don't comprehend it, have forgotten it, or simply refuse to acknowledge it.

Not sure on the 5080 but I'm having Eliab from Avical do my 940 this coming Tuesday. I think I have a pretty nice picture dialed in now - but I'm looking forward to seeing if Eliab can squeeze any more out of the 940. I'll let you know the outcome.

Please do....very interested.

How can you know what a program looked like "in person?" Were you there to see how the image appeared on the post production monitor when it was mastered?

The primary goal of the entire video production community is preserving the integrity of the original program signal. A program producer does not want his work contaminated, altered, compromised, distorted, "fudged" or lost on its way to his intended audience.

Your concept of "real life" is subjective and likely not fully valid for anyone else but you. What if it's different than how a program's originator conceived it should be. What do you do with "The Matrix" and it's dominant green tint during half the movie? Is your concept of "real life" tinted green? The producer of the program wanted it green. Would you try to un-green the program because it didn't fit your concept of "common sense" or "intuition."

[Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Well, as long as that calibration passes video from my digital camcorder as faithfully as it does broadcast and pre-recorded media, then I'm all for it. It's just that I've seen so many calibrations(user-level with AVIA and DVE) and full-scale ones not represent what I see when I hit the sidewalk for a stroll. Now I understand that it's up to me to set white-balance correctly on my digital cameras so I'm "capturing the moment", don't get me wrong. It's just that instinct drives just as much as any scientifically derived measurements - in calibration of TVs and in other areas of life.

I understand fully about director's intent - and that IS what I want to see when I load in Top Gun(red tinted scenes on the carrier deck) or the Matrix(green scenes). I do know enough not to adjust my display according to "off" material from one channel or source.

It's just that instinct drives just as much as any scientifically derived measurements - in calibration of TVs and in other areas of life.
We will simply have to agree to disagree on this assertion of yours. The purpose for technical standards throughout the imaging industries is to remove as much "instinct" (impulsive guessing) as possible from the program production, post production, delivery and exhibition process. NTSC meant 'never twice the same color' for decades, until standards began to be followed more rigorously.

It's just that I've seen so many calibrations(user-level with AVIA and DVE) and full-scale ones not represent what I see when I hit the sidewalk for a stroll.
How many of these calibrated TVs were showing images from a correctly aligned video camera, of shots taken while strolling down your sidewalk, under identical lighting conditions? How many varieties of grass are used for lawns across the country? How many shades of green are there from these varying types of grass? What shade of green is a lawn that hasn't been fertilized in a while versus fertilzed 3 days ago, or not watered for 2 weeks, or freshly cut versus badly in need of mowing? How many colors can you find of concrete?

Image fidelity is not determined by what you see in your world. It's only determined by what the original program looked like, when it was given final approval by the program producer, who viewed it on his calibrated monitor, designed and adjusted according to imaging industry standards.

The primary and most fundamental purpose of display calibration is to faithfully reproduce original video programs. The only way this can occur is if the TV behaves, as close as possible, like a calibrated post production monitor. Is it worth it? If you want image fidelity.

I love your attitude and wish more calibrators took your position. Why can't a customer have accurate colors and good contrast/brightness without the picture being so soft and dark that it's like your in a cave? This inflexibility on the part of the calibrator is what gives the profession a bad name and the reason many customer switch settings the minute the calibrator walks out the door


Actually, "soft and dark" pictures was not my implication in the least. All I was saying is that I do not take an absolutist view toward video calibration. For certain brands of display, and for certain models within each brand, a quick go through of the user controls with one of the AVIAs, DVE, or GetGray may be all that is needed to get that "there" sensation when viewing the image. For others, even everything Chad B can throw at them will still not correct deeper fundamental issues.

And then there is the 60% of everything else in between those two categories which will definitely benefit from ISF or similar grade calibrations.

My point is - an ISF grade calibration is not mandatory to get a correct image from every brand/model/type of TV. Recommended, but NOT mandatory.

To have a 5080 professionally calibrated if your pretty good at getting a natural picture yourself?

It really depends on the type of person you are......

I dont ever need a professionally calibrated TV because it doesnt improve things enough for me and I dont really care to waste $$$ on that stuff. I dont know of any friends or family that would get a calibration done, heck they are $300 sometimes and thats more then the warranty on the TV, the majority of people dont get calibrations done.

I do read that many on here love to get the professional calibration and believe its worth it.

So who are you, are you always searching for perfection? are you always complaining about friends and families TVs? If you say "YES" to either or both of these questions then get the calibration done.

If you are John Q Public and you just want to watch TV on a Great TV then dont bother.

ISF calibration with specific signal generators and test gear is really the only way to achieve accurate color fidelity for your display. Any other method (avia, get gray, DVE, etc) will only adjust your display to the best signal your DVD player can produce. I can see where people that have gone that route are frustrated and would feel any calibration in general useless.

Out of three DVD players in my household (cheap Samsung, Tosiba HD-A2, and Oppo 980) only 1 will even display black level pluge correctly (oppo). The other two can't show me correctly black levels or white crush. So if I was to depend on these players to help me calibrate my display, I'd certainly not have anything reliable to even display the correct patterns or judge by.

Using these DVD's and the player only will result in an error prone calibration of the input to the player - to me its useless. Feeding the displays input a known signal from a generator is the only way to have a baseline from which to begin to calibrate.

These kinds of methods are a big waste of time IMHO.

So how would anyone do a proper job of true calibration without the sophisticated test the pro's have? It can't be done. Can you make your display show you a picture your happy with yourself? Of course. But that isn't calibration or would it achieve a goal of Color Fidelity to known and proven standards.

Bottom line is if you want to extract the very best picture your display is capable of providing, thereby getting the most value from the money you've spent, get it ISF'd.

With internet shopping, black friday sales, close-outs and interest free financing, and the horribly low margins on displays already, most people get a steal on their purchases. Use some of that savings to get the very most out of what you got.

ISF calibration with specific signal generators and test gear is really the only way to achieve accurate color fidelity for your display. Any other method (avia, get gray, DVE, etc) will only adjust your display to the best signal your DVD player can produce. I can see where people that have gone that route are frustrated and would feel any calibration in general useless.

Out of three DVD players in my household (cheap Samsung, Tosiba HD-A2, and Oppo 980) only 1 will even display black level pluge correctly (oppo). The other two can't show me correctly black levels or white crush. So if I was to depend on these players to help me calibrate my display, I'd certainly not have anything reliable to even display the correct patterns or judge by.

Using these DVD's and the player only will result in an error prone calibration of the input to the player - to me its useless. Feeding the displays input a known signal from a generator is the only way to have a baseline from which to begin to calibrate.

These kinds of methods are a big waste of time IMHO.

So how would anyone do a proper job of true calibration without the sophisticated test the pro's have? It can't be done. Can you make your display show you a picture your happy with yourself? Of course. But that isn't calibration or would it achieve a goal of Color Fidelity to known and proven standards.

Bottom line is if you want to extract the very best picture your display is capable of providing, thereby getting the most value from the money you've spent, get it ISF'd.

With internet shopping, black friday sales, close-outs and interest free financing, and the horribly low margins on displays already, most people get a steal on their purchases. Use some of that savings to get the very most out of what you got.


Agreed!...and using other's settings only get's you (maybe) in the general range..as each display is different..being the very same model or not.

Spend the $$, get it ISF'd, & enjoy the results!

someone had a jpeg pic of a a color band used to color calibrate your t.v. can you reference or im that pic