I just updated my firware on my XA2, to get the HBR and was trying out some discs. I have the Onkyo 705 so things work nicely. I popped in Top Gun and saw that the DD+ EX was nicely detected by the AVR. Then I switched to the TrueHD track. It took several seconds for the Onkyo to lock on the audio signal when it did I was shocked to see "(DD)TrueHD EX 5.1" displayed!!

I said a few time before that I was most interested in the flags and meta data that should be transmitted with the uncompressed HBR audio. Now I can assume my stuff will figure out if there is a matrix/discrete/extra rear channel and I don't need to mess with that setting :)


Some Titles with True HD EX
Top Gun
We are Marshall *maybe*
The Perfect Storm

What other titles have True HD with EX? I don't think I have seen anything labeled with it.

Yeah, lossless is nice. Too bad it seems HD DVD studios don't think it is important at all.

I think We are Marshall has a TrueHD ex track.

Yeah lossless is nice. But it seems some studios just don't get its importance. They just keep releasing titles in DD+ instead of TrueHD; case in point, Transformers and Shrek 3.

I just don't get their excuse! What gives!!!!

I really hope it's not because of space limitations.
I don't know which one is worse, space limitation or being lazy on the studio's part.

I have Top Gun and the Onkyo 805. When I put Top Gun in my A35 the moive plays fine in DD+;however, when I select True HD it plays fine but takes the audio forever to start. When I forward to another chapter it takes the audio about 30 to 60 seconds to start playing. Does anyone else have this problem?

While I certainly don't find it an absolute to include lossless tracks on every release (It would be nice), at least give us a 1.5m track. Studios who are authoring with 448 or 640Dolby tracks need to get their stuff together.

While I do support both formats, I still find it hard to see how space is not an issue on HD-DVD.

I have Top Gun and the Onkyo 805. When I put Top Gun in my A35 the moive plays fine in DD+;however, when I select True HD it plays fine but takes the audio forever to start. When I forward to another chapter it takes the audio about 30 to 60 seconds to start playing. Does anyone else have this problem?

I did comment that it took several seconds for my XA2 -> Onkyo 705 to lock on/ start the TrueHD track. It may have been closer to 15-20 seconds the lag was definatly noticeible. Other True HD tracks locked on faster. I wonder if the EX makes it take longer too.

Is it just safe to say that if a title has DD+EX listed and has a TruHD track then the TruHD will also have EX?

Are there any title where this is not true?

Is the EX track in DD+ Matrixed or is it discrete?

Is it just safe to say that if a title has DD+EX listed and has a TruHD track then the TruHD will also have EX?TrueHD packs the PCM data more efficiently, to take up less storage space. That process doesn't erase the surround-back information that was mixed into the L/R surround channels. Is the EX track in DD+ Matrixed or is it discrete?Surround EX mixes the surround-back channel into the L/R surrounds using matrix encoding. When that soundtrack is compressed using DD+, the surround-back channel doesn't suddenly become discrete. It's the same soundtrack, just compressed to take up less space, so the matrixed surround-back channel remains matrixed.

Sanjay

Yeah lossless is nice. But it seems some studios just don't get its importance. They just keep releasing titles in DD+ instead of TrueHD; case in point, Transformers and Shrek 3.

I just don't get their excuse! What gives!!!!

I really hope it's not because of space limitations.
I don't know which one is worse, space limitation or being lazy on the studio's part.

on the insider's thread, someone mentioned one annoyance of using TrueHD -- at least with current tools (perhaps there is a way around it in the future).

Supposedly, every so often, the TrueHD stream has to have a restart point, which jumps the temporary bandwidth use through the roof. Since video and audio coding are now done separately, it means the video encode must be kept low to keep room for this bandwidth spike. This means throwing away available bandwidth.

DD+ supposedly doesn't have this problem. Neither does DTS-MA. Unless Dolby comes up with a solution, or people do combined video+audio encodes to optimize bandwidth use of both, we may find TrueHD used only on easy-to-encode movies.

I may have interpreted the seriousness of the issue -- but it sounds like studios don't like using TrueHD. I know it means an extra DD or DD+ track anyway, since TrueHD 5.1 isn't manditory on players (but de-facto is on all players as long as 1-gen users upgraded to 2.x firmware). It seems like ignoring DTS-MA on players was a bad choice, as it may be the better choice as a codec.

Surround EX mixes the surround-back channel into the L/R surrounds using matrix encoding. When that soundtrack is compressed using DD+, the surround-back channel doesn't suddenly become discrete. It's the same soundtrack, just compressed to take up less space, so the matrixed surround-back channel remains matrixed.

Sanjay

I know that that is how legacy DD is processed, but I thought that DD+ allowed the use of up to 7.1 disceret chanels.

on the insider's thread, someone mentioned one annoyance of using TrueHD -- at least with current tools (perhaps there is a way around it in the future).

Supposedly, every so often, the TrueHD stream has to have a restart point, which jumps the temporary bandwidth use through the roof. Since video and audio coding are now done separately, it means the video encode must be kept low to keep room for this bandwidth spike. This means throwing away available bandwidth.

DD+ supposedly doesn't have this problem. Neither does DTS-MA. Unless Dolby comes up with a solution, or people do combined video+audio encodes to optimize bandwidth use of both, we may find TrueHD used only on easy-to-encode movies.

I may have interpreted the seriousness of the issue -- but it sounds like studios don't like using TrueHD. I know it means an extra DD or DD+ track anyway, since TrueHD 5.1 isn't manditory on players (but de-facto is on all players as long as 1-gen users upgraded to 2.x firmware). It seems like ignoring DTS-MA on players was a bad choice, as it may be the better choice as a codec.

Very informative post. I don't have the technical expertise to understand why TrueHD needs to a restart point now and then. If that's the case, then why don't studios just switch to DTS-HD MA? Don't tell me it's a licensing issue and that only blu-ray can have DTS-HD MA? Having the player's ability to decode DTS-HD MA is a moot point if you have the XA2/A35 and have an AVR like the 605.

I mean, how hard is it to get the licensing to encode audio in DTS-HD MA? Don't some imports have HD MA?

I know that that is how legacy DD is processed, but I thought that DD+ allowed the use of up to 7.1 disceret chanels.That's correct, it does. But they're still compressing the same 5.1 EX soundtrack as before. Same with old stereo soundtracks; the DD+ version will still be 2 channels. Unless they specifically re-mix the soundtrack for HD release, but that's a separate issue from the compression codec being used.

Sanjay

That's correct, it does. But they're still compressing the same 5.1 EX soundtrack as before. Same with old stereo soundtracks; the DD+ version will still be 2 channels. Unless they specifically re-mix the soundtrack for HD release, but that's a separate issue from the compression codec being used.

Sanjay

Yes that was the crux of my question ;)

Is anyone able to tell if its discrete?

While I certainly don't find it an absolute to include lossless tracks on every release (It would be nice), at least give us a 1.5m track. Studios who are authoring with 448 or 640Dolby tracks need to get their stuff together.

While I do support both formats, I still find it hard to see how space is not an issue on HD-DVD.

Warner is the worst offender. On some titles they do not give you lossless. Then to add insult to injury, they give you an inferior DD+ (640k) to boot. I boycott all such titles.

Very informative post. I don't have the technical expertise to understand why TrueHD needs to a restart point now and then.

I believe the restart point or what ever you want to call the spike is a retransmitting of the dictionary being used so that when you FF or skip to a particular point it knows how to start decoding with out any previous information and the audio can start right away. I believe Amir even stated that these spikes even happen at a rate faster than the frame rate. They are very brief but very frequent and they spike up to the max rate of the audio encode. The net result seemed to be that tru-hd track ended up requiring what ever it's peak encode rate was in bandwidth for the entire move even tho the average might be much lower.

I have Top Gun and the Onkyo 805. When I put Top Gun in my A35 the moive plays fine in DD+;however, when I select True HD it plays fine but takes the audio forever to start. When I forward to another chapter it takes the audio about 30 to 60 seconds to start playing. Does anyone else have this problem?

Same here with the XA2 with 2.7 FW.

Yes that was the crux of my question ;)

Is anyone able to tell if its discrete?

You mean can any one tell if it was re mixed and encoded? I doubt that anyone can. Filmixer maybe? ;)