Post your thoughts here.

I have a Onkyo 805 and Toshiba XA2. First thing I did after the update was pop in Transformers.

The shockwave scene toward the beginning clearly was more appropriately abundant in bass with my AVR decoding the bitstream signal. The bass was so low my whole room was rumbling for a good 3-4 seconds. The impression I got with firmware 2.5 was just "meh".

I think the overall sound is better. Everything is even more crystal clear than before. Everything is distinguishable in the surrounds. Dialog is more pronounced and crisp. Bass is better used and sounds "just right".

The volume is supposedly louder now. But this didn't affect my sound judgment because I never have a set volume setting that I always use. I just turn it up or down to whatever sounds good.

So I'm curious as to what you guys think. Lets hear your impressions.

Did you compare the sound with the XA2 doing the decoding and sending PCM to your AVR? That should show if the improvements are across the board or just down to the AVR doing the decoding.

Post your thoughts here.

I have a Onkyo 805 and Toshiba XA2. First thing I did after the update was pop in Transformers.

The shockwave scene toward the beginning clearly was more appropriately abundant in bass with my AVR decoding the bitstream signal. The bass was so low my whole room was rumbling for a good 3-4 seconds. The impression I got with firmware 2.5 was just "meh".

I think the overall sound is better. Everything is even more crystal clear than before. Everything is distinguishable in the surrounds. Dialog is more pronounced and crisp. Bass is better used and sounds "just right".

The volume is supposedly louder now. But this didn't affect my sound judgment because I never have a set volume setting that I always use. I just turn it up or down to whatever sounds good.

So I'm curious as to what you guys think. Lets hear your impressions.

Does your 805 correctly apply the necessary +10dB boost to LFE over PCM/HDMI?

Many AVR's do not.

Im a visual guy. Damn was Meagan Fox a GREAT visual!!!
The Iron Man trailer was awesome!

The movie was picture perfect on my TV.

Watched yesterday (XA2 (2.7) bitstreaming DD+ to my Onkyo 705) definetely more bass from the shockwaves and throughout, eventhough the bass is killer already!!

Does your 805 correctly apply the necessary +10dB boost to LFE over PCM/HDMI?

Many AVR's do not.

I would like to know the answer to that too...as I'm sure it applies to my 705 aswell. I thought the extra 10db wasn't for HDMI though??

i've got an onkyo 805. i did not have the LFE boosted by 10db anywhere in the signal chain. Bitstream mode gives way more bass than PCM on fw 2.5. I haven't had a chance to test transformers in PCM with 2.7 yet to compare, but I have a feeling that the toshiba was reducing the LFE output when it was doing the decoding. Or is it that bitstream mode automatically applies the LFE boost?
LFE levels and whether you should boost them in the AVR are the one aspect of blu ray and HD DVD audio that still confuses me . . . .

Does your 805 correctly apply the necessary +10dB boost to LFE over PCM/HDMI?

Many AVR's do not.

the 805 doesn't boost anything automatically, but you can set it to boost LFE if you want.

So it sounds better bitstream?

I would like to know the answer to that too...as I'm sure it applies to my 705 aswell. I thought the extra 10db wasn't for HDMI though??

An AVR should boost the LFE channel for HD Movies on PCM-over-HDMI. (What is not well defined is the case for DVD-A and SACD).

Unfortunately one of the roadbumps to HDMI implementation on early AVR's was not getting this correct.

When you guys are meaning bitstream that is you have the S/PDIF to bitstream and the HDMI to Auto? Correct?

When you guys are meaning bitstream that is you have the S/PDIF to bitstream and the HDMI to Auto? Correct?

no they are talking about sending the HDMI set to Bitstream and having their AVR decode the tracks.

When you guys are meaning bitstream that is you have the S/PDIF to bitstream and the HDMI to Auto? Correct?

no

leave that setting as PCM

Direct Audio should be set to On

Digital Out HDMI set to Auto

This sends the bitstream signal to the AVR for decoding. Otherwise the HD DVD player would be doing the bitstream decoding and sending the decoded signal as PCM to the AVR.

I feel the HD DVD players are doing some post processing to the PCM signal before sending it to the AVR. Whatever is going on is hurting the optimal sound quality which is why many people are noticing a difference.

I feel the HD DVD players are doing some post processing to the PCM signal before sending it to the AVR. Whatever is going on is hurting the optimal sound quality which is why many people are noticing a difference.Are your sure that those noticing a difference had the required +10 dB LFE boost being done in their AVRs? Steve has already proposed this as a likely culprit.

Did you compare the sound with the XA2 doing the decoding and sending PCM to your AVR? That should show if the improvements are across the board or just down to the AVR doing the decoding.

I did not do a direct compairison yet after the 2.7 firmware update. I will later.

Does your 805 correctly apply the necessary +10dB boost to LFE over PCM/HDMI?

Many AVR's do not.

Sorry, don't know.

i think the 10db LFE boost might be part of it, but the thing is, the XA2 in bitstream mode now sounds more like my ps3's TrueHD->PCM output, and I didn't boost that input on the 805 either. If I was supposed to be boosting the LFE by 10db in the AVR, that would apply to the PS3 as well, right? And yet the PS3 doesn't seem to need it. Weird!!!
Are we SURE that the correct way to handle LFE over HDMI is to ALWAYS boost LFE by 10db, or does that vary according to the player and AVR being used?

no

leave that setting as PCM

Direct Audio should be set to On

Digital Out HDMI set to Auto

This sends the bitstream signal to the AVR for decoding. Otherwise the HD DVD player would be doing the bitstream decoding and sending the decoded signal as PCM to the AVR.

I feel the HD DVD players are doing some post processing to the PCM signal before sending it to the AVR. Whatever is going on is hurting the optimal sound quality which is why many people are noticing a difference.

When I had the S/PDIF to bitstream and the HDMI to auto I still got the DD+ and TRUE HD on my receiver. I tried it your way and the receiver still say DD+ and TRUE HD. Why is there a difference when you set S/PDIF to bitstream or PCM when you are using the HDMI for audio? I checked the Transformers movie and it sounds the same both ways. By the way I am using a Onkyo 805.

I thought the LFE tracks were mastered 10 decibels hot, rather than the pre pro or AVR handling the boost. Hence the reason we calibrate subs to 75 decibels.

I thought the LFE tracks were mastered 10 decibels hot, rather than the pre pro or AVR handling the boost. Hence the reason we calibrate subs to 75 decibels.

That seems to be take on it from reading the 705/805 threads. I have not seen one mention of a LFE bug in the new Onkyo's.

That seems to be take on it from reading the 705/805 threads. I have not seen one mention of a LFE bug in the new Onkyo's.

My understanding was via HDMI to my 705 that I didn't have to do any LFE adjustments, this is only over analogue?? or with some older receivers? Correct me if I'm wrong...I've read the whole LFE thread but am still confused so I just left LFE alone and assume the receiver knew what it was doing.

When the AVR runs the codec it for sure gets the right +10 dB boost as required by both Dolby Labs and by dts. If you do the decode in the player and send the result to your AVR via linear PCM on HDMI, you may or (the case of a PS3?) may not need the +10 dB boost added in the AVR's input handling of a LFE input via PCM. Seems that Toshiba expects the AVR/Pre-Pro to do it for a LPCM input just like it expects it to do so for the .1 of a 5.1 analog input.

If the PS3 has the .1 of its LPCM via HDMI output already boosted by +10 dB, I wonder what happens for AVR/Pre-Pro's that automatically or by default do the +10 dB boost on a .1 LPCM input? LFE set +10 dB too high? May make lovers of over-cooked bass very happy. ;)

Good point this is why I checked my levels using a calibration disc.

no

leave that setting as PCM

Direct Audio should be set to On

Digital Out HDMI set to Auto

This sends the bitstream signal to the AVR for decoding. Otherwise the HD DVD player would be doing the bitstream decoding and sending the decoded signal as PCM to the AVR.

I feel the HD DVD players are doing some post processing to the PCM signal before sending it to the AVR. Whatever is going on is hurting the optimal sound quality which is why many people are noticing a difference.

OK I have to ask...what does setting the SPDIF as PCM have anything with HDMI bistreaming?

OK I have to ask...what does setting the SPDIF as PCM have anything with HDMI bistreaming?

nothing

I was answering a question to a member who was wondering if that setting had anything to do with what we were discussing in this thread.

The SPDIF setting is purely for optical/coaxial if I'm not mistaken.

As Bob has pointed out, the AVR's usually get it correct when decosding a bitstream themselves. It's the PCM via HDMI they often flub.

And LFE is mastered 10dB down because the interconnect could represent the required dynamic range without being overdriven. Hence it's lowered in mastering, and expected to be boosted in processing stage.

Thus if the deck is doing it prior to sending over the interconnect it would be technically incorrect.

Just out of curiosity, (don't know much about any of this), but any reason why there is such a difference in volume between voice and sfx in Transformers? Is there anything that could correct this on the receiver?

I agree. BIG difference between voice and SFX scenes. If you turn the voice up - you get blown out during action scenes. Too darn much dynamic range!

Does your 805 correctly apply the necessary +10dB boost to LFE over PCM/HDMI?

Many AVR's do not.

I have the Denon 3808ci and am wondering about the above statement. Does the receiver lower the over bass output or is the bass signal itself lower? I did notice that the bass seemed lower but didn't know why. I have a killer SVS sub so that is not the issue.

Thanks

I have the Denon 3808ci and am wondering about the above statement. Does the receiver lower the over bass output or is the bass signal itself lower? I did notice that the bass seemed lower but didn't know why. I have a killer SVS sub so that is not the issue.

Thanks

The signal is lower in the on-disc encode. It it specified that the AVR should raise by +10dB at it's processing stage.

The playback deck should NOT be touching it.

Check with fols in the "Amps & Receivers" forum to see if anybody knows if your Denon has the option to enable this, or may require a FW upgrade to do so.

When the AVR runs the codec it for sure gets the right +10 dB boost as required by both Dolby Labs and by dts. If you do the decode in the player and send the result to your AVR via linear PCM on HDMI, you may or (the case of a PS3?) may not need the +10 dB boost added in the AVR's input handling of a LFE input via PCM. Seems that Toshiba expects the AVR/Pre-Pro to do it for a LPCM input just like it expects it to do so for the .1 of a 5.1 analog input.

If the PS3 has the .1 of its LPCM via HDMI output already boosted by +10 dB, I wonder what happens for AVR/Pre-Pro's that automatically or by default do the +10 dB boost on a .1 LPCM input? LFE set +10 dB too high? May make lovers of over-cooked bass very happy. ;)

that all makes sense, but it sounds like i'll have to apply the 10db boost on the 805 every time I need to output PCM from the XA2. BAH! That's a hassle. oh well.

I have the Denon 3808ci and am wondering about the above statement.

Denon's previous models handle the LFE channel in multichannel PCM signals correctly, so I doubt they would regress in this regard. Also, people who are aware of this issue and own your model haven't reported the problem.

that all makes sense, but it sounds like i'll have to apply the 10db boost on the 805 every time I need to output PCM from the XA2. BAH! That's a hassle. oh well.

Check the receivers sections first.

What about for 5.0 setups? I've always wondered if the XA2 was mixing the LFE back into the FL/R/C or if the AVR would do it with PCM.

I would think with Bitstream it would be all up to the AVR to mix the LFE back in if no sub was connected and full range L/C/R where selected.

that all makes sense, but it sounds like i'll have to apply the 10db boost on the 805 every time I need to output PCM from the XA2. BAH! That's a hassle. oh well.

No you don't. The default setting on the "LFE" [see audio adjust on set up menu [3] item 7.] all formats are set to "0" which is the correct for all.
The external audio MCH[menu 7 item 4] in has a separate settings for this which should be set tp +5 if no BM was used on the player, or leave to "0" when you use the BM in the player, or something like the Outlaw ICBM.

Once set these you will never have to set this again, you're set up for all scenarios.

What about for 5.0 setups? I've always wondered if the XA2 was mixing the LFE back into the FL/R/C or if the AVR would do it with PCM.

I would think with Bitstream it would be all up to the AVR to mix the LFE back in if no sub was connected and full range L/C/R where selected.

Once you use digital connection all processing including correct BM will fall on the downstream component.

The external audio MCH[menu 7 item 4] in has a separate settings for this which should be set tp +5 if no BM was used on the player, or leave to "0"When using AVR external multichannel analog inputs, according to the specs, this should be +10 if no BM was used on the player, or +15 if BM was used on the player.

cheers:)

Denon's previous models handle the LFE channel in multichannel PCM signals correctly, so I doubt they would regress in this regard. Also, people who are aware of this issue and own your model haven't reported the problem.

I think it might just be the lower volume over all that was bothering me. I just turn it up a little more. I'm not used to watching a movie with the volume set to -12.5.

When using AVR external multichannel analog inputs, according to the specs, this should be +10 if no BM was used on the player, or +15 if BM was used on the player.

cheers:)


That's how it is done indeed but that's not how it "scaled" in Onkyo's world.


0= +15db boost
+5= +10db boost Explanation: Onkyo actually attenuates the signal by 5db from the maximum 15db boost which achieved at the default "0" setting.
Of course if you would have owned one of these you would know this.

;)

That's how it is done indeed but that's not how it "scaled" in Onkyo's world.


0= +15db boost
+5= +10db boost Explanation: Onkyo actually attenuates the signal by 5db from the maximum 15db boost which achieved at the default "0" setting.
Of course if you would have owned one of these you would know this.

;)
Thanks for the clarification, as you've guessed, I've never owned Onkyo products. Although Onkyo seems to confuse things even more.....if thats at all possible;)

Explanation: Onkyo actually attenuates the signal by 5db from the maximum 15db boost which achieved at the default "0" setting.

Going on this wouldn't it be:
0= +10db boost
+5= +15db boost

This would make sense since the multichannel analog inputs require a minimum of +10db boost so the Onkyo applies that by default, and if you engage BM in the player you need an additional +5db boost to compensate? I'm just trying to understand the logic behind this, or was that simply a typo? Or is the Onkyo applying the +5db boost to the other channels?

cheers:)

Thanks for the clarification, as you've guessed, I've never owned Onkyo products. Although Onkyo seems to confuse things even more.....if thats at all possible;)



Going on this wouldn't it be:
0= +10db boost
+5= +15db boost

This would make sense since the multichannel analog inputs require a minimum of +10db boost so the Onkyo applies that by default, and if you engage BM in the player you need an additional +5db boost to compensate? I'm just trying to understand the logic behind this, or was that simply a typo? Or is the Onkyo applying the +5db boost to the other channels?

cheers:)

I agree it is confusing and it's "backwards" too, but the most boost happens at the 0 setting. Everey other setting simply reduce the boost in numerical scale number you enter. 5 ,10,15.

I tested this with my Oppo uni player playing DVD-As, connected both analog and HDMI, I didn't use BM in the player so I needed 10db boost. The HDMI was spot on, so to match that on the analog I had to select the "5" [db I assume] reduction to match the HDMI sound. With it's default 0 the analog was too bassy. My speakers are bookshelf so the added bass didn't come from them.
So yes I'm confident that the Integra/Onkyo approach while seems confusing achieve the same results as other MFRs .

XA2 and Denon 7100 and three balanced stereo amplifiers:
Transformer’s Mid-Fi Sound Quality
By now most of the professionals have reviewed the HD-DVD Transformer movie. I usually agree with them but this time is the exception.
As a quick note I enjoyed the stylized picture quality though I think AVC encoding offers a slight but noticeable improvement in luminance S/N ratio as compared to VC-1. The script is quite hooky in places as they try to play to the widest audience possible.
But the professional reviewers who claim this release has outstanding sound quality are just plain wrong. This is strictly a mid-fi product. It’s not even in the same ballpark in comparison to the reference quality of Pixar/Disney.

First, the Dolby encoding degrades the sound quality. By example, the lossless encoding (PCM, TrueHD) releases have proven superior. No surprises this is as it should be.

Second, the sound is over processed with the natural high-frequency atmosphere filtered out. Images can be large with low distortion but they are bland and unnaturally mushed together. In other words there is little separation of instruments, voices and special effects in their own acoustic envelope. Then the stuff is overly compressed to make it always louder.

Ironically the surround sound logo at the beginning of the disc is just the opposite. Very impressive with effective surround sound use and most importantly with the high frequency clues and atmosphere left intact. Short but sweet!

Im a visual guy. Damn was Meagan Fox a GREAT visual!!!

You think Megan looked hot in the movie, you should try and catch a rerun of "Two and Half Men" episode called "Camel Filters and Pheremones." This was about 3 years ago and she looks incredible in that episode. That was one of the 1st 2 & 1/2 men episodes I HAD to save on D-VHS. After showing that episode to my brother-in-law, he said she is going to be a Star.

I am using an AVM 50 pre/pro with a Paradigm Signature sub. Now having said this, the Transformer disc simply rocks and detail is excellent. LFE is room shaking. Nothing changed from the 2.5 to 2.7 fw. I do bass management in my pre/pro. The XA2 fw change has had no effect from my perspective. At least it didn't make it worse:D

Good point this is why I checked my levels using a calibration disc.

There's a thought!!!