...when we sit down to listen to music? i don't mean music playing in the backround while we fiddle with something else, i mean when we actually sit down to LISTEN to music.


we put in a cd or start up a record, maybe dim the lights, grab a cold one, plop down in our favorite chair, close our eyes and hope to be transported to that stage, or hall, or room with the artist, forgetting all our troubles and being swept away by the illusion...

thats it...the ILLUSION

isn't that why we buy our subs, amps, speakers etc.? with each upgrade i make (and i make too many) i'm hoping to make that illusion a little more real...

now then..

i realize this is AV Science forum, but if there are those among us who are convinced that $500 speaker cables or green marker around cd edges or putting a quarter on the top of each corner of their speaker (you get the point), makes the illusion that much more real, i say more power to 'em...it doesnt necessarily work for me or you, but...

our minds are easily tricked...if you blindfold someone, tape their arm to chair and tell them you're going to put a hot coal on their arm, most people will scream bloody murder when you touch them with an ice cube...

...science is the underlying factor in our hobby, no doubt

but if a little hocus pocus now and then makes the illusion more profound to some, i say have at it...

I don't necessarily disagree with that premise - let people have their illusions. The problem is that these threads influence hundreds of people who are just getting into serious stereo for the first time, and who are reading in AVS to get some advice on getting started. And so the $500 cable talk (or the $10,000 cable talk) immediately sets a tone that maybe a $2000 stereo system with $500 cables is a good idea. What a shame so early in the process to start putting way too much money in areas that have such a small impact on SQ compared to what an investment in different speakers can make.

I agree with JCarls. This audio voodoo can not go unchecked.I see many newbs here and in stores that are robbed of cash by the sharks that sell this bullshit. You want to enjoy your hocuspocus Luke then go to the many other forums that support that crap not here.

It sounds best if you hold your mouth right.

I agree with JCarls. This audio voodoo can not go unchecked.I see many newbs here and in stores that are robbed of cash by the sharks that sell this bullshit. You want to enjoy your hocuspocus Luke then go to the many other forums that support that crap not here.


i think posts like this will keep the "newbs" on their toes...

That's basically what it comes down to, if someone wants to spend tons of cash on upgrades that have never been proven to make a difference more power to them, I'm not going to stop them.

However, if someone comes in and asks if they should buy some fancy cryogenically treated receptacles, I'm going to advise them to either keep their money or put it to use somewhere it will make a large, and proven difference, like in improving their room's acoustics.

Likewise, if someone comes in claiming some new cable positioning accessory was the greatest improvement to their sound system since the discovery of electricity, I'll challenge them on it, as the vast, vast majority of such "upgrades" fall apart when put to rigorous test.

if a little hocus pocus now and then makes the illusion more profound to some, i say have at it...

You and schticker will go well together. I don't necessarily mean that as an insult to either of you, either.

I see many newbs here and in stores that are robbed of cash by the sharks that sell this bullshit.

Exactly. I stopped arguing with "believers" long ago because their minds are made up and they prefer to believe in magic. The people I hope to reach are the ones who truly want to know what matters and what does not matter, so they can get the most value for their money. To me this is a consumerist issue more than anything else.

--Ethan

naw...you guys are missing the point


...a friend of mine ( i only see him a couple times a year) has a nice system that includes a pair of $1200 speaker cables. he is convinced these cables were what put his system over the top. i would bet that if i snuck over and replaced his cable with 14 g home depot wire he wouldn't tell the diff...

until he found out

then the soundstage would shrink and depth would disappear, his illusion destroyed...

once the blindfold is removed, what was once a white hot coal is revealed to be an ice cube...

some say put the blindfold back on, but the ice cube doesnt burn anymore

I've learned over the years dealing with different rooms that you can have the best stuff money can buy and put it all in a crappy room and even expensive stuff will sound crappy. Moving a speaker an inch more in the right direction will give you many more times the upgrade in sound quality than buying 1200 dollar cables. Tell your friend he is delusional and an idiot for spending that much money on electronics and not more on the place he puts his stuff.

lefthandluke,

Your point is fine, taken as a "personal" choice by someone wishing to maximize their illusion by any means available.

But this doesn't mean that science has to stop and that everyone else has to just shut up to avoid crashing anyone else's dreamworld. If someone wants to maintain an illusion that way, I'd recommend they just not read or post in tech discussion groups, or maybe just toss out their computers.

For many of us, the science part is important, we want to share information that is based on more than subjective opinion or magazine reviewers' philosophy. I like to maximize my audio illusion too, but I couldn't do that if I know I was being willfully ignorant.

I believe my money can be better spent on equipment, room acoustics, etc. These are things I can actually hear.

Once I have everything my heart desires (including a pinky ring with a picture of my a$$ printed under the diamond), I will consider spending that kind of money on speaker cables.

I like to firmly believe that I have never spent money on snake oil. If it doesn't stand out to me, it's not worth the money. I'm not going to spend $30 on a banana plug vs. $5 unless I can really say WOW.

but if a little hocus pocus now and then makes the illusion more profound to some, i say have at it...

I agree that such a person has a right to their opinion. I'd also say that others have a right to point out that it's a placebo effect. Why it has to get violent is anybody's guess, but I suppose it's just that half the fun of forums for some folks is arguing.

I think most anyone who has done any audio engineering has had the following experience: You're tweaking a track, maybe adding a little more compression, or dialing in the reverb, or what have you. You listen back a few times for the nuances, making a small adjustment to the knob each time. Finally you get it to where you say "OK, that's it".

And then, a few seconds later, you realize the compressor or reverb wasn't connected to anything at all. You heard the same track play back each time. It happens to the best...

Why it has to get violent is anybody's guess

In my experience, people become insulting because they have no answer to direct pointed questions - and they know they have no answer. So they resort to name-calling out of frustration. I see this time and again in forums.

--Ethan

Lurker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurker)

In Internet culture, a lurker is a person who reads discussions on a message board, newsgroup, chatroom, file sharing or other interactive system, but rarely participates.

There seems to be a lot of hyped, over priced products out there. Don't base anything on price. Some of that voodoo can come cheap. :)

Lurker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurker)




...and?

Use drugs to get better illusions not 5K cables!! :D

...a friend of mine ( i only see him a couple times a year) has a nice system that includes a pair of $1200 speaker cables. he is convinced these cables were what put his system over the top. i would bet that if i snuck over and replaced his cable with 14 g home depot wire he wouldn't tell the diff...

You should do that sometime!! :D


Your buddy can spend all the money in the world, none of us care but if he ever tells anyone those $1200 cables actually makes a difference then we have a right to question him and prove to him they actually are a big waste of money.

There is a difference when he starts "selling" something!!

Use drugs to get better illusions not 5K cables!!

:D:D

i realize this is AV Science forum, but if there are those among us who are convinced that $500 speaker cables or green marker around cd edges or putting a quarter on the top of each corner of their speaker (you get the point), makes the illusion that much more real, i say more power to 'em...it doesnt necessarily work for me or you, but...

our minds are easily tricked...if you blindfold someone, tape their arm to chair and tell them you're going to put a hot coal on their arm, most people will scream bloody murder when you touch them with an ice cube...

...science is the underlying factor in our hobby, no doubt

but if a little hocus pocus now and then makes the illusion more profound to some, i say have at it...

I completely disagree with this attitude, because unlike many people here I do not take some perverse joy in watching suckers get bilked out of their hard earned money.

I am a strong opponent of ignorance and blind faith, especially when used to make large sums of money for dishonest snake-oil salesman (Monster Cable, etc). I believe in education and the scientific method. People need to be informed and educated.

If there is evidence to support a product's claims, fantastic! Spread the good news for all to see. And conversely, when a product is making false claims, we have a duty to call them out.

I don't know that I'd lump Monster in with the snake oil. Monster is a premium product that has ultra-premium prices. It's just way overpriced for what it is. The real snake oil in this industry costs quite a bit more than the Monster products.

You should do that sometime!! :D


Your buddy can spend all the money in the world, none of us care but if he ever tells anyone those $1200 cables actually makes a difference then we have a right to question him and prove to him they actually are a big waste of money.

There is a difference when he starts "selling" something!!



no...

he's not selling me (or you) anything.


he's not advocating a change of cables ...for you or me

he's simply telling us that in his system, these cables improve his systems ability to make the illusion that much closer to real...

again, i'm using him as an example...there are others that use a green marker around the edge of a cd

...this doesn't cost anything

I don't know that I'd lump Monster in with the snake oil. Monster is a premium product that has ultra-premium prices. It's just way overpriced for what it is. The real snake oil in this industry costs quite a bit more than the Monster products.

I don't know, what little Monster stuff I have ranges from crap (falling-apart toslink cable) to meh (component cables, power bar).

The DIY Canare cables I've made are much sturdier, as are the (cheapest at my local HT shop) Tributaries component cables.

There's nothing "premium" about any of the Monster stuff I have except the price.

no...

he's not selling me (or you) anything.


he's not advocating a change of cables ...for you or me

he's simply telling us that in his system, these cables improve his systems ability to make the illusion that much closer to real...

again, i'm using him as an example...there are others that use a green marker around the edge of a cd

...this doesn't cost anything

If you're observed by the wrong person putting green marker around the edges of your cds to make them sound better, it's going to cost you a lot more than $1200 to get out of the psyche ward.

Awhile ago you said something about missing the point. Ok I'm still missing. If someone wants to make an innocuous post (or just idle conversation) about how a component with no science or controlled listening tests behind it makes all the difference in the world to them - I agree, have at it. Share your personal observation if it makes you feel better. Is that the point?

But if a post is worded in a way that implies that the rest of the world ought to buy into that observation ("buy into" meaning "waste real money or time on expecting to get a noticeable improvement n SQ"), you know they're going to get an argument in AVS. I think that's everyone else's point.

Audio isnt just about the sound, is about the complete package. You might have some fantastic speakers, but you might come home and think 'these just don't do it for me'. You have to like your purchase. You have to make it fit you, not the other way around. You might prefer the $1000 cheaper speaker because it looks nicer

I dont agree with the way people force their opinions and preferences upon people. Most new members (I myself) probably came here with some idea of what they wanted and they get robbed of that by people arguing about what is best. At the end of the day, its the buyer that makes the choice.

Hello:

The 'illusion' issue being discussed (meaning the idea that certain parts effect the result more then they really do) seems to happen in many areas. Muscle Car's morphed into PC's and Home Theater equipment.

However, the level of argument is always proportional to the subjectivity of the activity.

With some things (like PC hardware) the end result is very objective and can be measured. It boils down to numbers.

In home theater, and most especially audio, it's almost totally subjective. It's what someone thinks about the sound (which sadly must pass through the imperfect and unique human ear before being processed).

In the end, the best advice most can give or get is 'find what sounds good to you'.

Splotto

I don't know, what little Monster stuff I have ranges from crap (falling-apart toslink cable) to meh (component cables, power bar).

The DIY Canare cables I've made are much sturdier, as are the (cheapest at my local HT shop) Tributaries component cables.

There's nothing "premium" about any of the Monster stuff I have except the price.

The masses don't seem to bear this out. There aren't many folks complaining about Monster quality.

Problem is, you can get that quality for a fraction of the price, and without building your own cables. Canare is good stuff and it's fine if you want to build your own, but I can buy pre-made cables that are built very well and are cheaper than anything I can make.

Color me lazy... :p

...and?

IMO it is an important word to understand in a thread like this. I thought it was a short contribution to the subject that is in my experience is best included but kept short and simple.

IMO it is an important word to understand in a thread like this. I thought it was a short contribution to the subject that is in my experience is best included but kept short and simple.



i think i understand...

you're saying a lurker may read this thread and think its recommending $500 speaker cables...?

no...

he's not selling me (or you) anything.


Of course we all sell something daily, just because there is not an actually transaction doesnt mean there isnt some form of "selling".

Your friend is convinced that those cables make the system better and he will explain that to many people. Those people will then BELIEVE that expensive cables improve sound and that is HUGE problem in my books.

None of us care what your friend does or likes but its when he convinces someone else that doesnt know better is where lots of us have a problem.

We all SELL daily because anytime you post information online or talk to someone about a product you are selling the idea about that product (good or bad).

but if a little hocus pocus now and then makes the illusion more profound to some, i say have at it...

Back to the original post....

I think that is really bad way to look at any hobby. I would want to learn everything about it and remove the smoke and mirrors maybe its education, maybe its years of solving problems from nothing.

In the end your friend is a fool if he doesnt know the science behind the hobby he spends thousands on, I wouldnt want to be known as a fool myself but that is just me! Again, its his money though and there are millions of fools out there surprisingly they can make money and spend it too :D :D

i think i understand...

you're saying a lurker may read this thread and think its recommending $500 speaker cables...? I am saying it is best to polite when you are in someone else's home. This site is about science. A lurker may not in fact even know they are a lurker yet and they might not be aware of how the forum works and say something they regret later. It is to clarify the definition of lurker. Notice how everyone brings up the fact that things cost more when people cannot understand what they are buying. IMO demographics do play a role in a discussion like this but this is not my home and they are not my rules or I would just go on and on like the energizer (cheap sales pitch :p) bunny. :D :D :D

Your friend is convinced that those cables make the system better and he will explain that to many people. Those people will then BELIEVE that expensive cables improve sound and that is HUGE problem in my books.



yes...he is convinced these cables made his system primo

yes...he told me and several others about this

no...NONE of us are ready to believe cables are a system changer, and thus go out and buy big buck cables

I completely disagree with this attitude, because unlike many people here I do not take some perverse joy in watching suckers get bilked out of their hard earned money.

I am a strong opponent of ignorance and blind faith, especially when used to make large sums of money for dishonest snake-oil salesman (Monster Cable, etc). I believe in education and the scientific method. People need to be informed and educated.

If there is evidence to support a product's claims, fantastic! Spread the good news for all to see. And conversely, when a product is making false claims, we have a duty to call them out.



you know, my father-in-law wears one of those bracelets with the little balls on each end...

he won't go without it...swears it stops his "tennis elbow" pain


illusion...?

swears it stops his "tennis elbow" pain
illusion...?

Yes, placebo effect. I mean, what else could it be? That the charlatans who sell those bracelets actually understand medicine better than real doctors?

--Ethan

Yes, placebo effect. I mean, what else could it be? That the charlatans who sell those bracelets actually understand medicine better than real doctors?

--Ethan



there you go...

my father-in-law, my speaker cable buddy, the green marker user...

...they are all happy

other than self-satisfaction, what do we stand to gain by destroying their illusions?

the education and betterment of others?...please

there you go...

my father-in-law, my speaker cable buddy, the green marker user...

...they are all happy

other than self-satisfaction, what do we stand to gain by destroying their illusions?

the education and betterment of others?...please

YES 100%, Again this has nothing to do with the illusion of your family and friends this has EVERYTHING do with educating the consumer so the next purchase is an INTELLIGENT one.

People are generally dumb about most things (that is why people make millions from selling silly products), I have to help almost all my friends/family with computer or electronics purchases because they dont know much at all. They dont have time to learn it either since they have me to answer questions daily.

Heck I go to BB, CC, local "higher" end audio stores with and for friends all the time. I buy more cables from monoprice for others then I do for myself. Hmmmm....maybe I should charge for this stuff and make profit off monoprice products ;)

In the end all I DO want to make sure the science is first, illusions are second.

Maybe you dont care about anyone else except yourself, maybe you let a person be a drunk, a drug addict or just a person that buys stupid things. Me I like to HELP people.

YES 100%, Again this has nothing to do with the illusion of your family and friends this has EVERYTHING do with educating the consumer so the next purchase is an INTELLIGENT one.

Bingo. As far as I know, nobody is picking up the phone, or going door-to-door, or sending emails or PMs trying to talk people out of their illusions. But somewhere in the description of AVS it says the purpose is to provide/recieve information and assistance (i.e. education of others). It's the wrong place to promote and perpetuate illusions. Why is this such a difficult concept?

other than self-satisfaction, what do we stand to gain by destroying their illusions?

I agree there is little value in trying to educate "believers" because they don't want to be educated. They are often hostile and disbelieving of science - as they watch their DVDs and talk on their cell phones and browse the web for a five-day weather forecast. Arguing with them is like arguing with people who ring your doorbell on Sunday morning. (Which I do every time :D)

The people I aim to reach are those who truly do want to know what is fact and what is not. The anti-science crowd have been so effective at influencing conventional wisdom that most people believe that speaker cable makes an audible difference and a $10,000 toob power amp is better than a $1,000 professional amplifier made by Crown or Bryston.

I'm happy to let the believers waste their money on audio jewelry. But when a newbie asks an honest question, I'll be right there every time with an honest answer.

--Ethan

Arguing with them is like arguing with people who ring your doorbell on Sunday morning.

You can always invite them in, offer them a beer or some coffee or something. Then ask them what they want from Santa Claus :-)

You can always invite them in, offer them a beer or some coffee or something. Then ask them what they want from Santa Claus :-)
My god you're everywhere i go! :eek:
Sure you're not stalking me? :D

my wife looks great in silk stalkings...

my wife looks great in silk stalkings...
Lol, yeah, i knew it looked wrong when i typed in, but i also typed it ina hurry so i didn't have time to lookup the correct word.

You can always invite them in, offer them a beer or some coffee or something. Then ask them what they want from Santa Claus :-)

Heh, I used to keep printed copies of THIS (http://www.ethanwiner.com/prayer.html) article and hand it to them as they handed their comic book to me. :D

--Ethan

just trying to understand this...

using a specific example, lets say you have a modest hi-fi setup...ie midlevel big brand gear: Denon AVR, mid level Paradigm/B&W speakers, Toshiba HD dvd player.

so most here are saying that if you use cables such as these:
Monoprice RCA (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021803&p_id=2865&seq=1&format=2) or Monoprice 1.3a HDMI (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024004&p_id=3661&seq=1&format=2), in a blind a/b test, your not going to notice any sonic or visual difference if you use cables from lets say Blue Jean, Monster or Nordost? and luke is saying you will?

in a blind a/b test, your not going to notice any sonic or visual difference if you use cables from lets say Blue Jean, Monster or Nordost?

Cables do not sound different unless there's something wrong with them. Which believe it or not is sometimes the case with the high-end stuff. Save your money for stuff that actually matters, such as better speakers, a better display, and room treatment.

--Ethan

Exactly. I stopped arguing with "believers" long ago because their minds are made up and they prefer to believe in magic. The people I hope to reach are the ones who truly want to know what matters and what does not matter, so they can get the most value for their money. To me this is a consumerist issue more than anything else.

--Ethan

The funny part is that people usually are in pursuit of these things long before they ever get in front a salesperson. High-end cable sales to the right consumer are the EASIEST sale you will ever make.

Has nothing to do with "sharking" anything. More often than not, it's a lay-down.

Bingo. As far as I know, nobody is picking up the phone, or going door-to-door, or sending emails or PMs trying to talk people out of their illusions. But somewhere in the description of AVS it says the purpose is to provide/recieve information and assistance (i.e. education of others). It's the wrong place to promote and perpetuate illusions. Why is this such a difficult concept?

Because the science of perception appears to be case-closed is precisely the reason to question it. Science is happy all-too-often to get fat and lazy by perpetuating their findings while ignoring compelling evidence to the contrary.

Questioning the "facts" is good science, is it not? Or has science gotten to the point where defending their own perceptions is the name of the game?

BTW - Providing your own opinion while hiding behind some glossy goal of "consumerism" or other smokescreen essentially designed to protect your POV is fairly transparent.

just trying to understand this...

using a specific example, lets say you have a modest hi-fi setup...ie midlevel big brand gear: Denon AVR, mid level Paradigm/B&W speakers, Toshiba HD dvd player.

so most here are saying that if you use cables such as these:
Monoprice RCA (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021803&p_id=2865&seq=1&format=2) or Monoprice 1.3a HDMI (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024004&p_id=3661&seq=1&format=2), in a blind a/b test, your not going to notice any sonic or visual difference if you use cables from lets say Blue Jean, Monster or Nordost? and luke is saying you will?

Is there a reason why Monosyphyllis cables are hyperlinked and the others not? Which agenda are we discussing here again?

Questioning the "facts" is good science, is it not?

sure

compelling evidence to the contrary

?
got any of that? I've never seen any

just trying to understand this...

using a specific example, lets say you have a modest hi-fi setup...ie midlevel big brand gear: Denon AVR, mid level Paradigm/B&W speakers, Toshiba HD dvd player.

so most here are saying that if you use cables such as these:
Monoprice RCA (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021803&p_id=2865&seq=1&format=2) or Monoprice 1.3a HDMI (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024004&p_id=3661&seq=1&format=2), in a blind a/b test, your not going to notice any sonic or visual difference if you use cables from lets say Blue Jean, Monster or Nordost? and luke is saying you will?



not really...

generally those seeking to fine tune illusions own higher end gear...

YES 100%, Again this has nothing to do with the illusion of your family and friends this has EVERYTHING do with educating the consumer so the next purchase is an INTELLIGENT one.

People are generally dumb about most things (that is why people make millions from selling silly products), I have to help almost all my friends/family with computer or electronics purchases because they dont know much at all. They dont have time to learn it either since they have me to answer questions daily.

Heck I go to BB, CC, local "higher" end audio stores with and for friends all the time. I buy more cables from monoprice for others then I do for myself. Hmmmm....maybe I should charge for this stuff and make profit off monoprice products ;)

In the end all I DO want to make sure the science is first, illusions are second.

Maybe you dont care about anyone else except yourself, maybe you let a person be a drunk, a drug addict or just a person that buys stupid things. Me I like to HELP people.



music is all about emotions...

you can hear a song you haven't heard in twenty years and it takes you back to that time, what you were doing, what you were feeling.

when you go buy a computer or a microwave you're filling a need, thats it...

when i spend 20-30 bucks on car wash, wax, armorall tire dressing and glass cleaner and invest 2 hours of elbow grease spit-shining that baby, the car doesnt run any better, but gee, you know, it sure seems like it has more power and handles a little smoother...

i would'nt equate letting someone enjoy that moment with allowing one to be a drunk or a drug addict...

Heh, I used to keep printed copies of THIS (http://www.ethanwiner.com/prayer.html) article and hand it to them as they handed their comic book to me. :D

--Ethan

Great article. Thanks for posting the link. You think you had a problem in CT, try living in the bible belt with that point of view! :D

Lots of interesting thoughts but I'll add one more to up the paranoia ante. When was the last time you read Stereophile or TAS, and the reviewer said words to the effect, "Wow what an overpriced piece of shiite this amp is!!!!" Or reviewed the latest thousand dollar RCA cable and concluded, "Sounds like a $50 cable, but the factory over in China sure made it look pretty!!" How about this: when was the last time you read a forum poster write, "I bought a $1000 cable and you know what, it doesn't sound any better or worse than the $50 cable I replaced. What a jerk I am!!" Yeah, pretty unlikely scenarios. At least, over the years, I don't recall reading anything like that. I guess my point is really this: to a large degree the whole industry is supported by smoke and mirrors, from the print media, to the advertising, from the retailers, right down to these forums. Here's my other point, despite all of that, I'm in this hobby to have fun, and maybe separate the wheat from the chaff while doing so. Thanks for all the great thoughts guys.

to a large degree the whole industry is supported by smoke and mirrors, from the print media, to the advertising, from the retailers, right down to these forums.

You got it. It's gotten so bad over the years that at this point the conventional wisdom is mostly wrong. But I will say that this forum is less prone to snake oil than most. Here, when someone asks about speaker wire they usually get the right answer from half a dozen regulars.

I blame magazines the most, and many pro audio mags are almost as bad as the audiophile press. When I wrote my first Audio Myths (http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html) article for Audio Media magazine a few years ago, I pitched it to Electronic Musician first. The editor there told me he and all the other editors looked at my ten points, and "disagreed" with every one of them! How do you disagree with scientific fact?!

--Ethan

Great article. Thanks for posting the link. You think you had a problem in CT, try living in the bible belt with that point of view! :D

LOL, I bet. BTW, this is the very first time I have ever posted that in a public forum. I'm sure you can imagine why. :D

--Ethan