Anyone know if an SDI will resolve the RT10's video issues?

I'm assuming if the Meg decoder is good this could make it a top universal player.

Any thoughts cordially welcomed. :)

Anyone ? :)

I have that same player.what video issues are you referring to?

I have that same player.what video issues are you referring to?

No idea what the issues are. All I know is I've read on these forums (and I think somewhere else) that video isn't up to the standard one would expect at the price point the player came out at. Sound had no such issue.

I want an alrounder for SACD, DVDa, DVD and CD and was looking at one of these but can't decide based on very little info apart from my top statement.

Would love to hear what screen and size you are using and any comparisons you can offer with a more well know player i.e. better than 2900 and why.

My 2900 was softer than my current 5900 using component into a Iscan HD but picture suffers from posterisation and to a lesser concern M/B.

Any info on you experience of the RT10 would be coordially welcomed :)

IIRC, the RT10 is based on Pioneer's 747/47 (and Marantz 8400), whereas the RT20 is based on the Marantz 9500 which in turn is based on Pioneer's 868/59, with substantially improved video processing. As a result, since Lexicon didn't enhance the video section of the RT10, it's performance is the same as the 747, which AFAIK has a Mitsubishi MPEG decoder with incorrect 3-2 Chroma Upsampling and the Chroma Bug (CUE), plus the 47 has mediocre deinterlacing (Pure Progressive Cinema). You can bypass the deinterlacing with SDI, but not the CUE. For SDI, you want a player with a good MPEG decoder, without CUE.

I can only compare it to what it replaced.It replaced a denon 2200 and video wise it was as good and slightly better.Remember that the rt10 has alot of different video adjstments you can make on the fly.Sound wise dvda/sacd it surpassed the denon.I really dont rely on it video wise much since i have a tosh a1 which i use alot more for movies.every once in awhile i'll use the rt10 for dvd's but not much,it does well just not as good as the tosh.

Apart from CUE and deinterlacing issues, it should produce a good sharp picture, as it has little Y/C delay and good frequency response, although it does crop some pixels. It's main appeal is the audio performance, and lovely build.

Well my ISCAN is meant to filter CUE assuming it's not just a gimmick :rolleyes:

Anyone know haw it compares with a 5900 sound wise as my currect 5900 with SACD is heavenly and with CD it betters my Marantz CD 63 KI.

Trouble I have is with DVD video so thinking buying SDI RT10 will be better than getting SDI on my 5900.

The 5900 should be great for video - apart from possible MBE issues with some displays due to Faroudja DCDi vp. It has an ESS Vibratto MPEG decoder, and is (AFAIK) CUE free, so it's a good candidate for SDI. However, 480i over component to the iScan might be worth a try, depending on whether you have a SIL504 based iScan or one of it's ABT successors which handle video-sourced content better.

Well my ISCAN is meant to filter CUE assuming it's not just a gimmick :rolleyes:

Anyone know haw it compares with a 5900 sound wise as my currect 5900 with SACD is heavenly and with CD it betters my Marantz CD 63 KI.

Trouble I have is with DVD video so thinking buying SDI RT10 will be better than getting SDI on my 5900.
Yes, the DVDO video processors should filter the CUE and ICP issues. Which video processor do you have? An Oppo 970HD sending 480i via HDMI is cheaper than an SDI mod - if the RT-10 can be modded.

larry

I use component 576i from 5900 into Iscan HD (has Sil 504 and not the HD+) then by VGA lead into PW7.

I get what I believe is posterisation and m/b.

I believe posterisation is where back ground walls in say cream have purple and orange bands with clear digitised border between them. This appears 20% of the time on plain backgrounds especially where player/Plasma is trying to define shade. Also in shaded facial close ups face looks more digitised with blocking. Blocking can also at times be seen but to a lesser extent in the back grounds.

I thought the blocking is unavoidable but the "so called" posterisation is the bigger ofender.

I have the opportunity of an RT10 SDI so if it can match my 5900 in sound and video i.e. as sharp and as good with pans as the 5900 is I'd go that route and sell the 5900.

However, if I could change my screen to solve the issue it might be a better solution as maybe it's time for a HD Ready set.

So does an RT10 match a 5900 for sound and video ?

Can I solve my posterisation another way ?

Scared to go down the ISF route in case it doesn't work but do you think a calibrator could answer and be willing to guarantee satisfaction with posterisation ?

Help :D

The 5900 should be great for video - apart from possible MBE issues with some displays due to Faroudja DCDi vp.

I read this all the time but have never read use this specific plasma/LCD and you won't have the problem.

Until I here that I believe it's a universal problem with all screens.

Using 5900 direct to my plasma is alfull.

The Iscans SIl504 chip and Iscan Scaler does a much better job than the FL2310.

Both using component - no DVI on my Panny PW7 Plasma

The 5900 using 480i/576i won't have the Faroudja MB "enhance". The issue happens during deinterlacing. Proper calibration is a must. How do you calibrate? On the plasma, I would make sure all "automatic" PQ options are turned off. It's possible some of you problems may be cable related, but it's hard to tell without seeing. I don't think buying the RT-10 is going to solve your video issues. I'm surprised your plasma doesn't have a digital video input (DVI/HDMI). Is it one that uses the "blades"?

larry

The 5900 using 480i/576i won't have the Faroudja MB "enhance". The issue happens during deinterlacing. Proper calibration is a must. How do you calibrate? On the plasma, I would make sure all "automatic" PQ options are turned off. It's possible some of you problems may be cable related, but it's hard to tell without seeing. I don't think buying the RT-10 is going to solve your video issues. I'm surprised your plasma doesn't have a digital video input (DVI/HDMI). Is it one that uses the "blades"?

larry

Hi larry

Thanks for adding your thoughts.

The 5900 also has the M/B problem in the ESS MPEG decoder. The FL2310 "Enhances" it but it's still there beforehand.

That conclusion is from reading "Secrets" website and personal experience. In the scenes it appears in, with component using 576i into Iscan HD, it will disappear if I play same scene using Denon 2900. So ESS Mpeg Chipset brings it out or creates it, one or the other.

I calibrate using DVE Video Essentials. Brightness and contrast look as meant to be and creates an excellent 3d image. I have reduced both setting to test posterisation but it's still there. I'd say I'm fairly experienced in this as far as a layman goes :D

PW7 is a Panny with blades. Reason I haven't bought a DVI blade is they don't support 480p at 50htz which is what the Iscan should ideally send - I'm in UK using R2 disc. I could send 576p at 50htz and let panny downscale but decided the compromise won't be worth the gain. Maybe I'm wrong. :rolleyes:

Component cable from 5900 is a Nordost Optix 1m RCA to RCA. I do have a Mark Grant component so could swap it but again no probs using 2900 in same setup.

I'm of the belief maybe a proper ISF would do it but don't want to spend £275 with no result. Also HD Ready screens are getting so cheap maybe it's time for a change, but only if I can be sure it will be a fix.

However, I like zooming 2.35 movies to 1.78 and thinking a HD screen will make more work for the Iscan so in that respect the longer I stay with ED screen the better - unleast until I feel my desired material is available and affordable on HD. Note, my problem is as obvious with 1.78 or 1.85 material as it is with 2.35 material zoomed.

Any automatic PQs in Panny user screens are off, service menu I've no idea.

What so you think ?

I agree with PooperScooper. It's certainly hard to tell without seeing the problems. Although you aren't using the FLI2310 anyway, from what I've read, Pannys are the displays most likely to exhibit the MBE issue with Faroudja-based players. From what you describe, it sounds like maybe display processing/noise-reduction and/or maybe some disc compression artifacts and/or chroma delay - maybe a mix of these. You should certainly perform some basic calibration with a generally available setup disc, which might help to identify the culprit too. I would try another player to look for any commonality, which might lay the blame at the display, but wouldn't buy another player until I'd eliminated possible display/cable/configuration causes. Try adjusting - unless you already have - Y/C with the iScan, if possible, to see it that eliminates edge fringing (colour shifting or misconvergence). The issue with solid colour blocks sounds like poor colour gradation maybe due to 8bit processing in the Panny(?)

The 5900 also has the M/B problem in the ESS MPEG decoder. The FL2310 "Enhances" it but it's still there beforehand.

That conclusion is from reading "Secrets" website and personal experience. In the scenes it appears in, with component using 576i into Iscan HD, it will disappear if I play same scene using Denon 2900. So ESS Mpeg Chipset brings it out or creates it, one or the other.

The macro-blocking may be present in the content due to excessive compression, but only visible with the 5900 due to it's better component outs and DACs compared with the 2900. The 5900 analogue video output stage is very high quality, with excellent noise and frequency response, etc., performance, which may be very revealing... The 2900 frequency response is less extended and might soften the image, maybe concealing/smearing macro-block boundaries, so they're less visible. Also, the ESS Vibratto - whether it's the exact same model I don't know - is used in the 5910 and 3930 which don't have MBE or excessive MB issues. Although Secrets noted a similar issue in an older player using ESS decoder, the MBE issue has been widely reported in conjunction with other (most if not all) Faroudja DCDi based players, many of which don't use ESS, but use various others instead - most worse than the 5900 - like the Teac Esoteric UX-1 which uses a Mitsu decoder and fli2310.

I calibrate using DVE Video Essentials. Brightness and contrast look as meant to be and creates an excellent 3d image. I have reduced both setting to test posterisation but it's still there. I'd say I'm fairly experienced in this as far as a layman goes :D

Sorry, I posted my calibration recommendation before I read your post.

Thanks Zeropoint for your thoughts.

The 3910 has same chipset but resolves the MB issue from my understand. The pic quality on 3910 using DVI is as good as 5900 in component or 5900 with DVI so "bringing out the errors" seems a poor excuse.

Anyway, not a witch-hunt by any means as I love the style, build and sound of my 5900 :D

But need to get the picture sorted as the odd degraded film or scence spoils my enjoyment.:(

Personally a swap of some sort is not a poblem but I would like to keep 5900 more than the plasma but no one can give me a alternative screen that guarantees solving the problem.

Maybe a sale or return LCD is my answer but again not confident if possible or practical.

Sent an email to a good UK ISF calibrator this afternoon so will see what he says. My guess is he won't guarantee the Posterisation will be fixed :(

The 3910 has the same video section as the 5900, but adds DPIC, HDMI, better stereo RCAs, and some other bits, while losing the 5900's better linear PSU, BNC component outs, 2nd SCART in Europe, etc - so there are at least some differences, but performance figures look similar. However, it may be the 5900 missed the boat for changes (perhaps including firmware) to the video section hardware/firmware, which may have addressed the MBE issue to help reduce/eliminate it. IIRC, Secrets mention they were able to reduce the MBE levels. Manufacturers like Panny, issued many firmware releases for their S97 which included mods to try and reduce MBE. Maybe Denon moved on to the 3910 development before they identified and developed a fix for the problem, and didn't - for whatever reason - offer it to 5900 owners as an upgrade. "Bringing out the errors" was relative to the 2900, but the game may have changed with the 3910 as subsequent mods may have reduced it's production of MBE (by suppressing them) despite it's capability of revealing them.

Actually, looking at the 5900/3910 video test results, the 3910 outperforms the 5900 in (pretty much) all but chroma crosstalk (and audio jitter). Interestingly, the 5900's frequency response has a high-freq emphasis (@5.8MHz) versus a 3910 dip. This emphasis might help explain greater visibility of MBE(?) but just guessing

I'm actually on the phone to Denon A11 about firmware now :D

Good luck - but watch out for latest hardware requirements, which might mean you have to send it in for hardware upgrade, before you can have the latest firmware (:eek:).

Good luck - but watch out for latest hardware requirements, which might mean you have to send it in for hardware upgrade, before you can have the latest firmware (:eek:).

Denon UK customer support are absolutely awful.

One boy band just there to provide a lyp service. I had a long drawn out political conversation listening to him with his carefully chosen words.

I didn't stand for it and highlighted he could always esculate to find out what newer firmware actually does as he didn't have a clue and suggested I just do it and loose my M/R.

Don't mind loosing M/R if removes problem but I doubt it will.

Can't see me getting much luck hear, but at least he might buck up his ideas a little or realise he needs to be more skilled in the art of bull S_ _ _ t.


;)

The 5900 also has the M/B problem in the ESS MPEG decoder. The FL2310 "Enhances" it but it's still there beforehand. That's not the way I remember because people using 480i never saw the problem that they did when using 480p or higher. Some NR in the FL2310 magnifies the compression artifacts that are present in the source, not a fault of the MPEG decoder. I remember looking at scenes that people complained about and there were compression artifacts in the source visible on everything I played it on. On the best SD DVD players you are still going to see compression artifacts.

Wrt 2900 and other players, I'm only talking about the Faroudja MB enchance bug, not other issues that may or may not be seen using different players with other decoders/deinterlacers and implementations. Also, MB enhance "degree" was display dependent also.

As far as your other stuff, without seeing, it's hard to say. Zooming 2.35:1 to 1.78 can't help things, too. You're just magnifying the SD DVD mpeg "crap". Have you had he chance to try HD-DVD or BD?

larry

roman-r, Sorry to hear that, but I'd recommend writing a letter, rather than phone or e-mail - maybe addressed to MD - which has more chance of a useful reply.

That's not the way I remember because people using 480i never saw the problem that they did when using 480p or higher.

Well I get it and have read many others did to so lets agree to disagree


I remember looking at scenes that people complained about and there were compression artifacts in the source visible on everything I played it on. On the best SD DVD players you are still going to see compression artifacts.

Don't believe they are compression artifacts as the dance about and follow the exact description of m/b Agree to disagree, again :rolleyes:

Wrt 2900 and other players, I'm only talking about the Faroudja MB enchance bug, not other issues that may or may not be seen using different players with other decoders/deinterlacers and implementations. Also, MB enhance "degree" was display dependent also.


I agree with zeropoint to an extent. 2900 softens some errors although I believe 5900 highlights it's own failing due to it's awsome analogue stage.


Zooming 2.35:1 to 1.78 can't help things, too. You're just magnifying the SD DVD mpeg "crap".

As I said it's there zoom or no zoom. Magnifying the crap wouldn't be an issue if there was no crap (M/B). Also my magnifying only turns my 37" to about an equivaluent 50" or less screen. Well made DVDs look just as great when zoomed to 1.78.



Have you had he chance to try HD-DVD or BD?

Not willing to pay such a huge premium for HD. I buy 4 month post release R2DVDs in the sale for about £6 where the equivalent HD format is still £18-£25.

I also own 500+ DVDs and this year spent most of my time watching for the first time, every West Wing Episode (150 hrs) and now Sorpanos Season 6 Part 2. Neither on HD.

Also with a 37" screen which is perfect for my living room. I sit 2.2 metres from it - that's after rearranged my sofa to watch TV.

At that size ED from a top player should be very close to HD.

My friend in Denmark as a B & O 40" LCD 768x1366 with built in SD Player. It's awsome. As good as anyone would desire at this time and in my opinion ever. Again at that screen size. Better than any shop demo I've seen and I've seen loads.

This was using excellent (Casino Royal) and poor (Danish Film Production) Films.

So if B & O can do it, as can Arcam then my 5900 is currently at fault. Poor discs or no poor disc.

Looking for help here :)

roman-r, Sorry to hear that, but I'd recommend writing a letter, rather than phone or e-mail - maybe addressed to MD - which has more chance of a useful reply.

A letter will be sent if I don't get my disired response but thans for the suggestion.

I've tried various posts on this issue in different places and no one every says I have blah blah blah and it works fine.

Blah blah blah being a specific LCD or Plasma so I get really frustrated when all I hear is it's not the 5900.

Late players are just as sharp if not sharper so why don't they have the same issues.

B & O, Arcam newer Denons and I am saying in Interlaced mode as I appreciate the FL2310 problem.

Deno0n actually said the pic will still pass through this chip even in interlaced mode so that could be it, get SDI and problem solved. However Denon have mostly said what I know to be incorrect so I'm grasping at what is probably wrong.

MPEG decoder in 5900 has been critisied in Secrets and at least one other site so that puts me off.

Love to here from 5900 owners without these problems but they don't appear.

Maybe time to move onto something else and lose my love hate affair with my 5900 :o

MPEG decoder in 5900 has been critisied in Secrets and at least one other site so that puts me off.

The 5900 combines the MPEG decoder of the previous DVD-3800 and DVD-9000

The two players mentioned use the same MPEG decoder, but don't have the problem. Neither do other players - including later Denons - using the same decoder. So, to me, it looks like it's unlikely to be the culprit.

We have seen this before with some older Apex DVD players that used ESS MPEG decoders. We don't recall seeing in the DVD-3800 or DVD-9000 but will try and locate to see if the problem exists.

Although the issue was seen in 'older Apex DVD players', no mention is made of the specific decoder, nor whether it was the decoder at fault, or some other problem with the players.

The MBE issue has been seen generally with the Faroudja processor regardless of the accompanying MPEG decoder, and many of these decoders have not been reported as exhibiting the MBE symptoms, beyond regular expected MB on over-compressed content. As mentioned, the Esoteric is a particularly poor example (uses Mitsubishi decoder), so too the Samsung HD1000, and Panasonic S97/S77/S99/S100 - these have varying decoders from different manufacturers, but they have one thing in common - the Faroudja. Further, MBE has also, significantly, been reported with Faroudja based VPs, which obviously use the external source decoder.

I have seen the A11 (Euro 5900, don't know which firmware) with a CRT and front projector, and can say that no MBE was visible in 576i/480i - and we were looking for it. For that matter, it wasn't visible at 480p either. I thought the picture was excellent, but it had been carefully calibrated - not ISF'd - just using various setup discs.

I have read though, that Panasonic displays - amongst some others I can't remember - are renowned for this problem when used in conjunction with the Faroudja. It was suggested that noise-reduction - which can't be defeated by the user - might have been interacting with the Faroudja 'error'.

The two players mentioned use the same MPEG decoder, but don't have the problem. Neither do other players - including later Denons - using the same decoder. So, to me, it looks like it's unlikely to be the culprit.


I've read many articles in Secrets and they're not always consistent.

I'm not sure which is correct but Secrets one place says 5900 same as you state and somewhere else that 5910 same as 5900.

Now somewhere in this list of players the ESS chip becomes a Mark 2. Not clear if it's the 5900 3910 3930 5910 but for sure there is a mark 2. Also I'd suspect there may not necessarily be just 2 versions as at the very least different firmwares across the players will also provide variants.

The 5910 review says the old ESS could do with a change as it suffers CUE. Well earlier reviews said the 5900 doesn't have CUE and I'm sure the A1 review says it does have CUE.

I tend to find the best review of a player is to read the review of it's replacement - only possible of course if you are buying an old player. Even then there are no guarantees as one is possibly trying to overstate the new players ability.

It's all so dificult to really know what to believe. Not necessary Stealth Marketing could just be plain error. I do know what I see though, MB with interlaced through component :rolleyes:

I agree many have said it's a panny thing although I think it may be apparant to any fixed pixel screen but like you say the panny fixed noise reduction could be true as it's well documented. But only other feedback on what works with 5900 was a JVC or Hitachi 50" plasma owner and their problem was discribed as much worse than mine. I had to recommend to him the Iscan HD so as to go Interlaced.

What again is for sure is over in the UK most the the AV enthusiasts walked quite quickly from the 5900 due to MB and I don't see a Forum here for 5900 users so tells me there isn't a REAL fan club.

That is why I own one as now they cost under £350 which is a bargain when you consider how wonderful an SACD, DVDA and CD player it is.

It's almost an amazing DVD player but not until I can tame it a little more.

Maybe an ISCAN VP30 will do it as my ISCAN HD added a major improvement to the problem.

No reply from my email to a calibrator so maybe they already know it's a lost cause. Will chase them tomorrow.

Oh, I'd like to think my callibration skills are quite good but hard to be sure. I certainly pay a lot of attention to detail and am usually very competent self teaching these sort of things but never had an expert see my calibration efforts.

SDI may be my best option as the Secrets guy did say his reference system was once a 5900 SDI into Iscan HD+ so that does imply positive things.

Just not sure though ;)

Oh and I agree FL23xx is a sole offender. That doesn't prove the ESS is MB free though.

FL23xx enhances or creates the problem.

Yes, the problem is that it's virtually impossible to find definitive information about DVD players on the net - nor much else for that matter. There's so much rumour, speculation, contradiction, misinformation, misinterpretation, bias, etc., that it's a pain to filter out the wheat from the chaff. It's annoying that, to my knowledge, no one (manufacturer - esp. Faroudja) has issued a statement identifying the problem and it's cause. Various manufacturers have attempted to massage the problem, but have not explained the cause and what's responsible, beyond the clear link with the FLI2310 and variants. So, it's hard to know what to avoid.

Still, IMHO and experience, it's unlikely to be the ESS (although, maybe, in fixing CUE for the 5900 version, they introduced a different issue, not in earlier nor later versions). I have a memory card reader based media player which uses an ESS decoder - probably not the same as in the 5900, but maybe using same algorithms - and it doesn't have any MB issues either.

Also, my DVD player, a Yamaha DVD-S1500, has, guess what - a Faroudja FLI2310. However, despite using an LSI Ziva decoder, it still has the dreaded MBE-

The downside is this player suffers from the video artifact commonly referred to as the “macroblocking bug.” This has become well documented with FLI-23xx based players.

Again, this tends to confirm that the ESS is not the source of the problem nor is it aggravating it, as other players without ESS are often worse. As such, it might be worth trying the SDI route. Maybe contact a few modders, and ask them what's their experience.

Actually, the existance of an SDI mod for this player surely implies that the ESS is considered worthy.

See http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=371622

Note the comment-

However the DVD-A11's mpeg decoder (Pioneer branded, maybe the one used in the Pioneer DV-868Asi) is the best decoder I've "seen" up to now.

Even the famous Linn Unidisk 2.1 uses the same ESS Vibratto Videodrive ES6038F universal DVD.decoding chip.

Memory card reader based media player PCB-

Well I've no reply from the calibrator I emailed and looking at the SDI thread you kindly found me I think I need to speak with a competent SDI modder.

I'll update with what they say ;)

If you go back in the archives you'll see the posts about the 5900 and the Faroudja MB enchance. The 5900 was suspect zero. :) There was never any mention that I recall (and anywhere else) about MPEG decoders causing the "ehanced" MB. Given what the decoders do, it would be hard for them to output macroblocks unless the disc/data was corrupt. IIRC it has something do to with a NR feature in the 2310 being "on". And Panny plasmas at the time we affected the most because they had a NR feature that could not be disabled. Faroudja was also aware of the issue, but never made any statement about it and it's unknown if they did anything about it.

I'm assuming you're not in the USA so I don't know what players are available. But, if it were me, I wouldn't put the money (unless you have a lot of it :) ) into the SDI mods. I'd put it towards a newer scaler (like the VP30 you mention). Deinterlacers have taken big step up with the Reon/Realtas, Gennums, ABT102 et. al. chips. Getting an inexpensive player with 576i via HDMI will give you 99% of SDI. Players like the Oppo 970 come with the Mediatek MPEG decoders that do a very good job.

Just keep the 5900 for audio.

larry

If you go back in the archives you'll see the posts about the 5900 and the Faroudja MB enchance. The 5900 was suspect zero. :) There was never any mention that I recall (and anywhere else) about MPEG decoders causing the "ehanced" MB. Given what the decoders do, it would be hard for them to output macroblocks unless the disc/data was corrupt. IIRC it has something do to with a NR feature in the 2310 being "on". And Panny plasmas at the time we affected the most because they had a NR feature that could not be disabled. Faroudja was also aware of the issue, but never made any statement about it and it's unknown if they did anything about it.

Yeap, read them many times. They were earlier posts in the life cycle. It moved on to say the ESS Decoder contributed. Which is definately right is another point. Filmnut has just confirmed he's as good as trouble free from his 104" screen and projector. I'm in the hunt for LCD or Plasma trouble free users or a solution. :)


I'm assuming you're not in the USA .

That's right, I'm in London


But, if it were me, I wouldn't put the money (unless you have a lot of it :) )
definately don't :o


into the SDI mods. I'd put it towards a newer scaler (like the VP30 you mention). Deinterlacers have taken big step up with the Reon/Realtas, Gennums, ABT102 et. al. chips. Getting an inexpensive player with 576i via HDMI will give you 99% of SDI. Players like the Oppo 970 come with the Mediatek MPEG decoders that do a very good job.

DVDv and the magnificant film experience should be as much about sound as it is picture. Your suggestion is fine for someone runnning TV speakers but I have a Yamaha A1 amp running 7.1 Tannoy, Jammo (front effects) & Rel sub.

The oppo won't cut it and that is without even trying ;)

My 2900 sounded great but after the 5900, I don't even want to go back to that. :rolleyes:

TBH picture wise I don't think I could go back to 2900 either. 5900 component is so much sharper than 2900.

I'm seriously considering Iscan VP 30 though as that should help with a few minor artifacts especially when I only watch R2 Pal material. Just waiting for the right 2nd hand price to come along :)

I gonna swap out my Nordorst Iptix cable today just to eliminate that unlikely possibilty.

The oppo won't cut it and that is without even trying I meant use the Oppo for HDMI video at 480i/576i to scaler. DD/DTS via S/PDIF isn't going to make a noticeable difference from either player. Although, it seems the 970 is no longer available new. Too bad, 4 punches on the remote and it is region free and does both native NTSC and PAL output.

larry

DD/DTS via S/PDIF isn't going to make a noticeable difference from either player. larry

That's exactly what I mean too.

RRP £170 player won't sound anything like an RRP £1700 player for DD/DTS sound.

Difference with DD/DTS will be light and day between oppo and 2900 let alone the 5900. This is with coaxal or optical digital connection into a decent sperate system.

Sorry to say this but I think you should take a step back and consider if you are talking from first hand experience before giving advice. That statement cannot be from first hand experience.

Philips 963a is ment to be even better with SDI picture than the opp and not that much more expensive - abut £350 for player and board. Again the sound will be a step back, although my guess would be it will sound better than the oppo.

Gonna enjoy my 5900 and puzzle over how to resolve my dilemma

RRP £170 player won't sound anything like an RRP £1700 player for DD/DTS sound. As long as you believe that, it won't. :) I couldn't hear a difference through an Oppo, Ayre DX-7, or Pio 47ai via S/PDIF when I had all of them at the same time. I guess there isn't much more to say since you've already decided that a player you haven't heard won't sound as good as another.

People have compared the Oppo HDMI vs SDI players and claim there's a slight improvement with SDI, that's why I said 99%.

larry

However, worth bearing in mind, neither hirez DVD-Audio nor SACD can be played via S/PDIF, whereas the A11/5900 has iLink for this and maybe DLink (with any mods required for SACD - IIRC), although I realise your A1 has neither of these. Of course, the custom DACs in the 5900 are excellent for when you need both great analogue audio and video (e.g. DVD-Audio), albeit not necessarily simultaneously, but at least on the same disc. Also, jitter performance can affect reproduction via S/PDIF - or analogue for that matter - depending on the target DACs. The 5900 jitter is very low (~192ps), even compared to some high-end CD players. Plus, for DD/DTS too, the custom DACs in the 5900 (BB/TI PCM1790?) are better than those in the A1. The 1790s also handle SACD DSD directly. Even the onboard decoding/processing in the 5900 might give the A1 a run for it's money.

People have compared the Oppo HDMI vs SDI players and claim there's a slight improvement with SDI, that's why I said 99%.

"People" have compared but "you" state 99% without originally saying not by your own experience and saying with such conviction. :rolleyes:


As long as you believe that, it won't. :) I couldn't hear a difference through an Oppo, Ayre DX-7, or Pio 47ai via S/PDIF when I had all of them at the same time. I guess there isn't much more to say since you've already decided that a player you haven't heard won't sound as good as another.

I've never tried the opp but have tried other £200 players + Arcam DV88 + Denon 2900 + my current 5900.

You are the first person I have heard say there is no obvious difference between a high end player and decent entry level. All the experts and experienced users following my personal findings. The oppo is no miracle box.

Might buy a 2nd hand one just to make the comparison myself and have a good laugh :D Will sell it straight away of course ;)

However, worth bearing in mind, neither hirez DVD-Audio nor SACD can be played via S/PDIF, whereas the A11/5900 has iLink for this and maybe DLink (with any mods required for SACD - IIRC), although I realise your A1 has neither of these. Of course, the custom DACs in the 5900 are excellent for when you need both great analogue audio and video (e.g. DVD-Audio), albeit not necessarily simultaneously, but at least on the same disc.

A11/5900 gives as much as A1 can make use of for 5.1 SACD or DVDa via analogue and sound is very very good. But with my Graham Slee Mark 4 Master Class Headphone Amp and Grado RS1 I am in total Heaven :D

If you like jazz, Miles Davis Kind of Blue on SACD sounds just amazing. Track 3 "Blue to Green" I could listen to all day via head phones ;)


Also, jitter performance can affect reproduction via S/PDIF. The 5900 jitter is very low (~192ps), even compared to some high-end CD players.

This is "probably" main contributer to better DD/DTS via S/PDIF compared to Oppo or any other tiny low end player. Internal shielding is of a very high standard in the high end players.


for DD/DTS too, the custom DACs in the 5900 (BB/TI PCM1790?) are better than those in the A1.

Definately

The 1790s also handle SACD DSD directly.

and 5900/A11 uses an official 2nd generation DSD chip which is meant to take SACD to new heights in whatever brand that uses this chip, Marantz Sony etc.


Even the onboard decoding/processing in the 5900 might give the A1 a run for it's money.

Not quite :p

As long as you believe that, it won't. :) I couldn't hear a difference through an Oppo, Ayre DX-7, or Pio 47ai via S/PDIF when I had all of them at the same time. larry

maybe it's your kit or cable that is the bottle neck.

Every upgrade I make whether kit or cable has made a difference.

Using a VDH "The First" Coaxal for digital S/PDIF was a good step up from my Ixos.

I'm wondering if you believe in expensive cables :rolleyes:

I'll have to look out for that Miles Davis Kind of Blue SACD - thanks!

This is "probably" main contributer to better DD/DTS via S/PDIF compared to Oppo or any other tiny low end player.

I would only expect jitter to have an audible effect when transferring PCM synchronously via S/PDIF, but not a DD/DTS bitstream, which is transferred non-synchronously, as it's compressed, and so should be immune to player-side jitter. It may be susceptible to amp-side jitter after being buffered, decompressed/decoded, then clocked to the respective audio DACs.

So, I wouldn't expect any difference between different players outputting bitstreams, as these are handled differently - unless there's some weird interaction between player and amp inducing amp-side jitter. When handled amp-side, sound quality with DD/DTS is down to the quality of the amp's decoder, DACs, and analogue stage. So long as the S/PDIF gets all the bits there fast enough, it shouldn't affect performance.

It's when playing PCM over S/PDIF, that jitter can be significant, if it's sufficient to fall within perceptible limits, when it's handled synchronously end-to-end. Although, even player-side jitter can be reduced/eliminated with techniques such as de-jitter buffering/anti-jitter re-clocking. However, your still left with inherent data jitter due to A2D sample quantisation timing irregularities, etc.

I'm quite impressed with the Oppos, which IMHO shouldn't be bundled in along with typical budget players. They put more design effort and better components into their players than the average budget player, and do achieve considerably better performance. Often, there's a lot of commonality between budget and more expensive players, which can share many components, like MPEG decoders, loaders, deinterlacers, etc.

The one thing that puts me off a Oppo player, though, is the short loader, which doesn't open fully to allow unobstructed access to the disc tray - a definite step backwards, that no one else seems to mind but me. Other manufacturers - like Pioneer, Toshiba, LG, Samsung, JVC, etc., seem able to offer a short loader that can open fully. Certainly, the forthcoming 983H should be interesting, as it's based on ABT's deinterlacer/scaler, and has 7.1 MCH outputs.

I would only expect jitter to have an audible effect when transferring PCM synchronously via S/PDIF, but not a DD/DTS bitstream, which is transferred non-synchronously, as it's compressed, and so should be immune to player-side jitter. It may be susceptible to amp-side jitter after being buffered, decompressed/decoded, then clocked to the respective audio DACs.

So, I wouldn't expect any difference between different players outputting bitstreams,

Maybe not jitter then but I have to say S/PDIF DD/DTS sound output differs from player to player.

It's totally a no brainer here. I can't understand how it's up for discussion, really :eek:

I've a Panasonic DVD recorder and compared that with my Denon 2900 and was totally different sound. Much more centered with less rear and tonally different.

My 5900 is much cleaner than my old 2900 and definately has much more subtle atmosphere sounds. Tighter bass and more crash :D

Seriously I can only assume you haven't tried two diferent players back to back.

One thought is first generation players couldn't deliver DTS (not decode) but pump it through to the amp to decode. So must be some kind of chip doing something in the digital domain. Some kind of decoding otherwise what would be the trouble for 1st gen DVD players with DTS sound tracks.

So my point is if it has to do something to the sound track it will have it's own imprint on what it sends out.

As we know each MPEG decoder does different things to the picture while still in the digital domain.

So my guess is this is similar with DD/DTS but possibly not to the same extent.

Whatever the answer is the reality is plug two different players into the same high quality setup and you will hear a difference.

No question :confused:

Seriously I can only assume you haven't tried two diferent players back to back.

No, you're absolutely right, I never have :o So, I can only speculate and reference the reports of others in this regard. However, PCM (including DD/DTS downconvert to PCM) differences, yes, but DD, for example, bitstream, consists of raw audio/sych frames stripped from the MPEG-2 data stream. AFAIK, it's transmitted as-is by the MPEG decoder, so the only way it could affect sound, is if it was corrupted. The DD/DTS decoders in the player and amp can sound different, due to different decoding algorithms/precision, etc., but a bitstream from one player or another, to the same decoder, should sound the same, unless there are transmission errors, which should be detected and reported.

Anyway, I'm not disputing your test results, I'm just trying to account for them ;)

I wish you were right as do all Philips 963a owners :rolleyes:

Arguably the best MPEG2 Decoder providing the best SD source possible by SDI to scaler is what everyone says. They also say sound dosen't compete with the high end players - they're taliking about DVDv DD/DTS via S/PDIF.

I would have bought one by now if it wasn't for this exact point.

I've never heard a bad comment about this players pic but comments on sound is always varied

Might buy one anyway just to compare - the beauty of the 2nd hand market :)


No one can help with Lexicon SDI :p