Guide to Building a HD HTPC [Text View] - Page 11

stormeye

07-09-08, 04:59 AM

gunbunnysoulja

07-09-08, 11:41 AM

Hello.
This is my first post on this forum. I've been reading post for about a month, but haven't been able to find the answer to my doubts.
Looking forward to building up a HTPC to be able to play BD. My budget is $1000-1500.
I'm trying to hook this up to my Sony 52" KDL-52W4100 LCD tv.
I was wondering if I could get a good recommendation as for list of parts (in a detailed way) that I should buy in order to build a good HTPC. A good set of 7.1 speakers and TV tuner would be nice as well. (TV tuner is not really a MUST at this point. I understand I can buy this later)
Thanks in advance, and sorry if I have posted at the wrong thread. I just didn't know where else I should do it.
stormeye@gmail.com

Check out the first page. The low end II or mid range systems get my vote, with the addition of bluetooth keyboard/mouse, media center remote, vista premium 32, and blu-ray burner.

I just built the low end II, and coulnd't be happier.

E2220, Abit IN73HD, LG GGC-H20L, Crucial Ballistix DDR2-800 2GB RAM, Antec Fusion 430, XFX 8500 GT, WD 320 GB Hard Drive, Vista Premuim 32.

I use the stock cooler, and it NEVER gets over 40 degrees C in the Fusion 430 with dual 120mm fans @ the high setting, which is still very quiet.

The only reason why I didn't select the low end 1 is because I game and like having a video card.

gunbunnysoulja

07-09-08, 11:46 AM

OK, here is the component list for my new HTPC (http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=12028527).

Looks like a great inexpensive build.

papes510

07-09-08, 10:27 PM

renethx

07-10-08, 12:34 AM

papes510

07-10-08, 01:06 AM

Your system is nice and well-balanced. Did you find any problems with the graphics card and the mb? Which graphics card and mb do you look at? There are plenty of other good solutions and maybe I can help you.

Well the graphics card wont do hardware acceleration so thats heavy load on the cpu for playback. i dont think it would be a huge problem, but suplementing it with maybe an XFX8600gt for the same price might be better. plus this card only has 1 dvi instead of 2, dont know if thats a drawback.

renethx

07-10-08, 03:09 AM

Well the graphics card wont do hardware acceleration so thats heavy load on the cpu for playback. i dont think it would be a huge problem, but suplementing it with maybe an XFX8600gt for the same price might be better. plus this card only has 1 dvi instead of 2, dont know if thats a drawback.
Every GeForce 8600 GT card, including ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M, supports HA for MPEG-2/VC-1 (partial)/H.264. One card (either ASUS or XFX) is enough unless you want quad display. VGA or DVI depends on your need.

p2535748

07-10-08, 01:54 PM

I've got a pretty old HTPC that can't do HD content, so I'm thinking about upgrading. Taking stuff from this thread with other threads in this forum, this is what I've come up with:

Case: Cooler Master Cosmos S RC1100
CPU: Q9450
GPU: Gigabyte HD4850
MB: Asus P5Q-E
Mem: Corasair Twin2x4096 (4GB)
PS: Enermax MODU82+ 625W PS
CPU Cooler: Ultra-120 extreme
HD: WD 320GB SATA

This should be overkill for watching HD content, but I'll probably use it for some encoding, so I figure it's worth it. Anyway, I'm just wondering if it seems like a good build, or if I'm making some dumb mistake with any of the components.

papes510

07-10-08, 04:19 PM

Every GeForce 8600 GT card, including ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M, supports HA for MPEG-2/VC-1 (partial)/H.264. One card (either ASUS or XFX) is enough unless you want quad display. VGA or DVI depends on your need.

ok great. so sticking with the Asus vs the XFX is probably safe. My last concern is output to my 42 Toshiba LCD TV with HDMI inputs. Will i be ok with this card?

vDrag0n

07-10-08, 05:33 PM

what software raid 5 solution do you recommend for a 16 drive setup? Also if a sata controller dies for one reason or another, is it possible to recover the software raid?

renethx

07-10-08, 09:16 PM

renethx

07-10-08, 09:19 PM

ok great. so sticking with the Asus vs the XFX is probably safe. My last concern is output to my 42 Toshiba LCD TV with HDMI inputs. Will i be ok with this card?

Usually OK although I can't guarantee it with your TV model.

renethx

07-10-08, 09:25 PM

what software raid 5 solution do you recommend for a 16 drive setup? Also if a sata controller dies for one reason or another, is it possible to recover the software raid?
Windows 2003/2008 Server or Linux. UnRAID and FlexRAID are not RAID 5, but popular.

Yes, software RAID is independent of hardware host controllers.

RichTJ99

07-10-08, 10:15 PM

Hi,

This is a great thread, I learned quite a bit. I had a few questions:

1. Do most people keep the PC near their 40"+ screens? If so, how does the fan noise go (I have a Tivo & that fan is kind of annoying).

2. (a little longer):

I have a this media cabinet:

http://www.raymourflanigan.com/catalog/details.asp?ID=7374

I am planning on a 46" Samsung LCD that will be mounted two or so feet above the cabinet - the point being that all wires will be run from the back of the TV, through the wall, into the cabinet (I will put a new outlet near the TV on the wall).

I was thinking of adding two exhaust fans to the back of the cabinet (which will be very close to a wall).

I am concerned about heat in the cabinet. My 1.5 year old son would like the doors open but they need to stay shut so heat can be an issue.

3. I would love to run a cable through the floor & keep the PC in the garage but that wouldnt work with the wife & it would be annoying if we have a DVD to insert.

4. Was there any write up of XP Media center vs say Vista Ultimate?

Thanks for all the info!

Rich

skumaravs

07-11-08, 02:05 PM

renethx

07-11-08, 02:50 PM

Hello,

please help me decide..

I'm planning to buy HP Pavilion Elite m9300t series as my HTPC for playing and backup movies, NO games. From the manufacturers website the MB is ASUS: IPIBL-LB.

Not sure whether is MB is capable of future upgrades mainly HDD and video graphics card.

Please help..
I checked this page (http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01324212&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=3658015). The mb seems to be relatively new. Feature-wise it's comparable with ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (but the chipset is G33 without HDMI port). Yes, you should be able to use it for the next couple of years. If you choose GeForce 9500 GS or higher, you don't have to even upgrade the video card in future. Sound is the weakest part as usual. But don't buy a X-Fi card. A better sound card comes later (supporting HDMI audio).

renethx

07-11-08, 03:05 PM

Hi,

This is a great thread, I learned quite a bit. I had a few questions:

1. Do most people keep the PC near their 40"+ screens? If so, how does the fan noise go (I have a Tivo & that fan is kind of annoying).

2. (a little longer):

I have a this media cabinet:

http://www.raymourflanigan.com/catalog/details.asp?ID=7374

I am planning on a 46" Samsung LCD that will be mounted two or so feet above the cabinet - the point being that all wires will be run from the back of the TV, through the wall, into the cabinet (I will put a new outlet near the TV on the wall).

I was thinking of adding two exhaust fans to the back of the cabinet (which will be very close to a wall).

I am concerned about heat in the cabinet. My 1.5 year old son would like the doors open but they need to stay shut so heat can be an issue.

3. I would love to run a cable through the floor & keep the PC in the garage but that wouldn't work with the wife & it would be annoying if we have a DVD to insert.

4. Was there any write up of XP Media center vs say Vista Ultimate?
1. Noise depends on the components you select. If you choose them carefully, noise is no issue.

2. Yup, the heat could be an issue as there is almost no ventilation in the cabinet. Both exhaust fans (rear) and intake holes (bottom?) may be necessary.

skumaravs

07-11-08, 05:58 PM

I checked this page (http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01324212&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=3658015). The mb seems to be relatively new. Feature-wise it's comparable with ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (but the chipset is G33 without HDMI port). Yes, you should be able to use it for the next couple of years. If you choose GeForce 9500 GS or higher, you don't have to even upgrade the video card in future. Sound is the weakest part as usual. But don't buy a X-Fi card. A better sound card comes later (supporting HDMI audio).
Thank you Renethx..

The video card I plan now is Ge Force 512MB 9500 GS, hope this is a decent one.

Thanks again..

ENDContra

07-11-08, 07:59 PM

Ok, so Ive reconfigured my nonexistent HTPC yet again. Thoughts?

Intel E8400 Wolfdale Processor
GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R Motherboard
Crucial Ballistix Tracer 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 Memory (or something else on the comp list if I see it cheaper)
XFX GeForce 8600GT Video Card (Zalman fan)
LG Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM GGC-H20L Optical Drive
Undetermined 450W power supply (possibly the Corsair mentioned above)
Undetermined Mid-tower case (Dont like any of the HTPC cases in my price range)
2 x Samsung Spinpoint 750GB HDD for media, a 3rd smaller drive for software.
Will probably add a Haupage PVR and Imon IR at some point later.

Only thing Im second guessing right now is I may want a video card with 512MB memory (Im not planning to game on it, but its very possible still...plus I am planning on having a second monitor output).

Lostclusters

07-11-08, 10:20 PM

renethx

07-12-08, 12:21 AM

renethx

07-12-08, 01:33 AM

Renethx:

I was checking out your recommendation for the premium II rig. I like your mother board selection. I was looking for something with a few high powered pci-e slots. Future proofing. I was wondering if your if this board would be a good choice for the yet to be released Asus Xonar 1.3 hdav? Or would a scaled down board (less sound) in the same chip set be a better idea?
As for the number of PCI Express slots (x16, x8), P7N Diamond is the best choice for the Intel platform. Yup, if you go with the upcoming HDMI sound card, the bundled sound card is a waste of money. But the price of P7N Diamond is not particularly high compared with, for example, eVGA nForce 780i mb (without a separate sound card).

The midrange/high-end mb also supports dual PCIe 2.0 x8 (if you insert a second graphics card or a RAID controller card, the first slot will be automatically lowered to x8, that does not affect the performance of the first card in most cases).

Woggle

07-13-08, 06:47 AM

Hiya,

Could you have a look at my suggested setup and give comments please. I'm wanting to upgrade my Xbox running XBMC with a dedicated HTPC but not with anything too expensive.

Although XBMC has its benefits, I think I might shift to running the HTPC on Vista OS with MediaPortal as I'm not skilled in Linux.

As I'm in the UK, the costs are in pounds using the cheapest I can find on the web:

Case: Silverstone LC20 Black: £74.35
Motherboard: Gigabyte P35-DS3P: £62.41
CPU: Core 2 Duo E7200 S775 2.53Ghz: £61.42
Memory: 2x1GB DDR2 PC2-4200: £25.84
Graphics Card: Gigabyte GeForce 8500 GT GV-NX85T2565
Hard Drive: Samsung Spinpoint T166 500GB HD501LJ: £37.37
Optical Drive: Logitech LGGC-H20L Blu-Ray and HD-DVD - £62.12

I'm still in need of advice on two things. It is likely that I'm also going to run my webserver on this PC so would like it to be on 24/7. I'm therefore looking for a quiet PSU and CPU cooler. Any ideas?

CPU Cooler (with fan):
PSU:

Finally, as I'm in the UK we don't yet have HD over freeview. I'm therefore likely to use the following TV tuner until we get to that stage:

TV Tuner: Hauppauge WinDVD PVR-500 - £66.33 – IT247.com

Many thanks

renethx

07-13-08, 07:39 AM

I'm still in need of advice on two things. It is likely that I'm also going to run my webserver on this PC so would like it to be on 24/7. I'm therefore looking for a quiet PSU and CPU cooler. Any ideas?

CPU Cooler (with fan):
PSU:

Finally, as I'm in the UK we don't yet have HD over freeview. I'm therefore likely to use the following TV tuner until we get to that stage:

TV Tuner: Hauppauge WinDVD PVR-500 - £66.33 – IT247.com
Cooler: stock cooler, Scythe Ninja Mini (fanless), ZEROtherm BTF90

PSU: Corsair VX450W, Seasonic M12II-430

papes510

07-13-08, 01:05 PM

Ok so after a few weeks of researching i decided on my gear. Now for some reason the more i research the specifics of what i bought i feel like i made wrong decisions (im incredibly indecisive) and want to return my graphics card and maybe my mb.

anyway looking for opinions.

1Gx2|CRUCIAL BL2KIT12864AA804
VGA ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M RT
VID DEV AVERMEDIA AVERCOMBO
CPU INTEL|C2D E7200 2.53G 775 45N R
MB GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R 775 P35 RT
CPU COOLER ZEROTHERM|BTF90 R

Thanks!

Your system is nice and well-balanced. Did you find any problems with the graphics card and the mb? Which graphics card and mb do you look at? There are plenty of other good solutions and maybe I can help you.

Ok complete newby question. So everything is up and looking good. i have the card connected to my tv with vga for now until i get a dvi-hdmi cable. so now whats the best way to get the sound working?...the mb has an spdif output but the graphics card doesnt have an input for it. the tv has 3 hdmi inputs.

any suggestions/guidance would be great. thanks!

renethx

07-13-08, 01:40 PM

Ok complete newby question. So everything is up and looking good. i have the card connected to my tv with vga for now until i get a dvi-hdmi cable. so now whats the best way to get the sound working?...the mb has an spdif output but the graphics card doesnt have an input for it. the tv has 3 hdmi inputs.

any suggestions/guidance would be great. thanks!
The ASUS EN8600GT MAGIC/HTP/512M card has an internal S/PDIF connector (circled in the picture below).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=115221

Connect it to the mb's internal S/PDIF connector by a cable like this one (http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=909&sku=07090). A generic DVI-to-HDMI adpater will carry HDMI audio (S/PDIF pass-through in this case).

Rob_Esc

07-13-08, 02:03 PM

First off, this thread is an excellent guide. There's tons of valuable info here. Thanks!

So, I'd like to replace my large, loud, and heat generating PC with a smaller, quieter, more energy efficient HTPC. Media would be streamed via Cat5e Gigabit from a server in another room to this HTPC. Of course, it must playback all file types including HiDef. I already have Seagate 250GB SATA HD, Sony BDUX10S BD Rom, AverMedia PCI Combo, and Vista Premium 32 that I will recycle. Here are the new parts I'm considering:

Intel DG45ID (when it becomes available)
Intel e7200 Wolfdale
G.Skill 2x1GB DDR2 800
InWin MTJADE GLS300

I'll be using MediaPortal 1.0.rc1 and MPC-HC with all the necessary codecs for frontend.

Questions:

1. I've seen few uses of the Mt.Jade case. Can anyone provide any feedback as to the heat dissipation abilities and noise factor of this design?

2. Will this configuration allow for a single HDMI cable directly into my HDTV to provide video and audio? I'm currently only utilizing the stereo speakers on the TV, but would like to upgrade to 5.1 system down the road.

3. Cost is always a consideration. I can get all these new parts for around $400 US. I'd like to stick to that budget. I've looked at the 780G model for around the same price.

GIGABYTE GA-MA78GPM-DS2H
Phenom 8450 Toliman 2.1GHz
G.Skill 2 x 1GB DDR2 1066
InWin BT566T.300BL case (Mt.Jade case seems to be Intel specific)

I'm partial to Intel, but would consider AMD if it will perform better.

4. I'm trying to avoid the use of discrete graphics to keep cost/heat/power requirements at a minimum. Since I will be doing ZERO GAMING on this machine, is that reasonable?

Any thoughts or comments?

renethx

07-13-08, 02:25 PM

quantumstate

07-13-08, 07:57 PM

His recommendations have gotten fairly old now, as he doesn't mention the P45 nor X48 chipsets. Also he doesn't seem to know about Silverstone, Origen, or Moneual cases. So I've had to start research over from scratch. Good effort though.

So far I have it narrowed down to the Moncaso 932 case and one of these:
Mobos (P45) Mem PCIe USB Sound Power
Asus
+ P5Q3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP DDR3-dual-1600 16G 3(16),2(1),2(PCI) 10 ADI® AD2000B 8 Ch HiDef 16ph
P5Q-E DDR2-dual-1200 16G 3(16),2(1),2(PCI) 12 ADI® AD2000B 8 Ch HiDef 8ph
+ P5Q Premium DDR2-dual-1200 16G 4(16),1(1),2(PCI) 14 ADI® AD2000B 8 Ch HiDef 16ph
Maximus II Formula DDR2-dual-1200 16G 2(16),3(1),2(PCI) 12 SupremeFX X-Fi 8-Ch

MSI
P45 Diamond DDR3-dual-2000 8G 2(16),2(1),2(PCI) 12 X-fi Xtreme 268/388w
- X48 Platinum 4(16),2(1),1(PCI) 12 260/357w

No clear winners here. I want integrated graphics (for the case LCD) and lots of room for PCI cards (whether PCIe or otherwise). I don't know which PCI, cards are coming in these days, so it's a question whether more 16bit or 1bit is better.

I really like the idea of ASUS' EPU-6 Engine, assuming that it's not just marketing hype, much less whether it works in Linux.

Of course for PSU it will be a Silver or Gold-rated one on the 80Plus site.

... Will be running MythTV over Kubongo, and HD DVR will be this machine's main role. The PCIe video card will drive my projector, and must have BluRay hardware decode; haven't gotten that far yet tho. I hear R5000 HD support for MythTV is unreliable, but HD-PVR has lots o' problems too. What's a poor girl to do?

gunbunnysoulja

07-13-08, 09:59 PM

I would just like to say in regards to the Antec Fusion 430 listed in the Mid Range mATX build, this case is amazing, I did a LOW END II build except I included this case, and my CPU (E2220) doesn't ever go over 35 degrees C, and is usually 20-25C, on the Stock Cooler.

My friend has a similiar build except he is using a TOWER, and his runs 55-65 degrees C.

TiaoMacaleh

07-13-08, 10:03 PM

Will any of those low cost systems, run any .h264 .mkv 1080p videos without any problem whatsoever?

gunbunnysoulja

07-13-08, 10:21 PM

Will any of those low cost systems, run any .h264 .mkv 1080p videos without any problem whatsoever?

With my low end II build, I threw everything I could at it and have had 0 problems so far. I am incredibly impressed with its performance.

Thanks again to renethx.

TiaoMacaleh

07-13-08, 10:28 PM

How do you connect it to the TV? Hdmi>HDMi cable?

gunbunnysoulja

07-13-08, 11:27 PM

I connect my 8500GT to my Sammy hls6187w via VGA @1080p, however DVI-HDMI can also be used in my setup.

TiaoMacaleh

07-14-08, 02:19 AM

Reading in other foruns i saw some people mentioning that .mkv files doesnt support hardware aceleration, is that true?

If yes, what people do to run such videos?

boydn1

07-14-08, 02:34 AM

From reading and advice from folks on this thread I built the system below.
Looks great and sound s good but noticed a problem today.
Streaming lossless wma I noticed audio dropouts about every 3 or 4 songs (no one logged on to the main machine.)
I suspected wireless problems.
Later my son was watching a Blue-Ray movie and noticed drop outs in the audio.
Where would be the best place to start looking?
Thanks

SILVERSTONE Black SST-LC17-B
ENERMAX MODU82+ EMD525AWT 525W
GIGABYTE GA-EP45-DS4P
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz
Crucial Ballistix 2GB
SAPPHIRE 100233L Radeon HD 3450 256MB
SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB
LITE-ON Black 12X DVD-ROM

Linksys WRT160N Router
Linksys WMP300N PCI
Optical out to Denon 4802
HDMI out to Panny 1080p

David O

07-14-08, 04:09 AM

Haven't seen this mentioned yet but surely it makes sense to wait for the Intel DG45FC Mini-ITX (http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Motherboards/DG45FC/DG45FC-overview.htm)? Core-2-Duo ready, HDMI 1.3, a board that will fit with ease into those slim HTPC cases, and IGP graphics from the Intel GMA X4500 chip, so not shabby either.

For me, having built two HTPCs lately, one in a desktop form factor, yhe Thermaltake DH-101, so it's not ugly - just big. Too big for my next HTPC, which will have to sit on a living room glass shelf and really look the part. I'd love to use the Silverstome ML-02 for example, but wouldn't want to lose the power of a full HDTV ready HTPC by bailing out to a Via-Mini ITX solution.

What do you think?

EDIT: AVS already has a thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1004537). Expected August/September.

quantumstate

07-14-08, 09:19 AM

boydn1, the first place to start is to see whether the disk is busy. If so, you are disk-bound. Second, you see no problems with video stuttering? If so, I can't help as I'm a Linux type and Winduhs sux.

David O, I hadn't even looked at Intel mobos, but will now, thanks. I see that the X4500HD has hardware decode of mpeg2, AVC, & VCI, but I don't have time to look up whether one of those is BluRay format. I consider hardware decode of BluRay vital, as that's how I'll be storing all my Myth recordings.

I hear ya on the large case. I finally capitulated with the Moncaso 932 giant, but am not happy with the size at all. However sorting out all the mini and micro cases and figuring out all their respective gotchas and limitations has proven impossible for me with what little time I have. I must have at least audio (preferably X-Fi Elite Pro), a couple of PCIe 1bit slots, 10 USB2's, and a PCI slot.

xj-boonie

07-14-08, 10:09 AM

His recommendations have gotten fairly old now, as he doesn't mention the P45 nor X48 chipsets. Also he doesn't seem to know about Silverstone, Origen, or Moneual cases. So I've had to start research over from scratch. Good effort though.

---- snip ----

Actually, if you looked on page 85, post 2523, renethx has posted updates to his 1st page recommendations, some of which include Silverstone cases. :)

As for OrigenAE, I've got a X11 from when they were Uneed, and while it looks good, the backpanel doesn't line up (need to use washers as spacers - what's up with that!!!) and the VFD/IR module is worthless unless your running MCE or use third-party software. Oh well...

renethx

07-14-08, 10:14 AM

A problem of Moncaso 932 is that a longer BD drive hits the motherboard.

- LG GGC-H20N (190mm): does not fit.
- LITE-ON DH-4O1S (170mm): fits.

renethx

07-14-08, 11:37 AM

EDIT: AVS already has a thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14283705&posted=1#post14283705). Expected August/September.
Wrong link?

TiaoMacaleh

07-14-08, 02:02 PM

About the recommended "Low End II"

* CPU: Pentium Dual-Core E2220 2.4GHz Socket 775, $90.
* CPU Cooler: Scythe NINJA MINI, $33.
* Motherboard: abit I-N73HD NVIDIA GeForce 7100 and nForce 630i chipset microATX, $68.
* Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit, $25 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
* Graphics Card: XFX GeForce 8500 GT PV-T86J-YAHG, $67.
* HDD: Western Digital WD3200AAKS 320GB SATA, $64.
* PSU: Antec EarthWatts EA 380 (included in the case), $0.
* Case: Antec NSK2480, $75.
* Total Cost: $422

Can i cut the off board video card and still be able to play 720p/1080p .mkv .h264 files?

Is there any new all-in-one motherboard which is better than this one?

David O

07-14-08, 07:44 PM

Wrong link?
Link in my post above has been fixed

David O

07-14-08, 07:53 PM

David O, I hadn't even looked at Intel mobos, but will now, thanks. I see that the X4500HD has hardware decode of mpeg2, AVC, & VCI, but I don't have time to look up whether one of those is BluRay format. I consider hardware decode of BluRay vital, as that's how I'll be storing all my Myth recordings.
It's full HD decoding for Blu-ray discs, as well as for well-encoded .mkv (but still need a top end processor for other mkv files). For sound, lossles LPCM 7.1.

Downside appears to be expense (though prices at about $150 is what is expected and that's not so bad, especially as it may save you a graphics card and a top-end sound card).

I hear ya on the large case. I finally capitulated with the Moncaso 932 giant, but am not happy with the size at all. However sorting out all the mini and micro cases and figuring out all their respective gotchas and limitations has proven impossible for me with what little time I have.
Me too. My only worry would be the heat of a 3GHz processor in a tiny case, though again the newest Dual Core processors seem to wind down nicely when they are not usefully employed. Even my Q6600 system never gets hot like my older Pentium 4 and AMD 64's do.

I believe the ML-02 would be difficult with just a 120W power supply, using a picoUPS could get it to 200W but the case would apparently need modding, not sure I'm really up to that. Also I am off VFD's in a big way as they are just a pain to program nicely, and impossible to read from any distance. So my search continues. If I have to mod, I would rather buy a nice cheap-as-Chinese slim DVD player and gouge the innards out than go with some of the cases out there.
I must have at least audio (preferably X-Fi Elite Pro), a couple of PCIe 1bit slots, 10 USB2's, and a PCI slot.
Well you wont get that with a Mini-ITX board. :)

renethx

07-14-08, 09:50 PM

About the recommended "Low End II"

Can i cut the off board video card and still be able to play 720p/1080p .mkv .h264 files?

Is there any new all-in-one motherboard which is better than this one?
Even with E8400, I saw occasional stuttering when playing back BD movies with PowerDVD. But PDVD is CPU cycle-hungry, and the single-channel memory controller has a bad effect. Results wit MPC is here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13207153#post13207153).

If you don't use a discrete card, an AMD 780G chipset or GeForce 8200/8300 chipset motherboard is currently the best choice.

mel22b

07-14-08, 10:10 PM

Thinking of buying this. Any problems or suggested upgrades?

Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 dual core system
MSI P35 Neo combo Intel P35 chipset mainboard
CoolerMaster Centurion 5 toolless ATX tower
Thermaltake 430w Silent ATX power supply
2Gb PC6400 dual channel DDR2-RAM
nVidia GeForce 8800GT PCI-e video w/512Mb
Seagate 320Gb SATA 7200RPM hard drive
Integrated 7.1 digital surround audio
LG dual layer DVD±RW drive w/NERO
Integrated 10/100/1000BT LAN adapter
12-in-1 media card reader

Thanks in advance

Gangle

07-14-08, 10:41 PM

I created my build any ideas/suggestions? Any incompatibilities, necessities, or ways of making it cheaper?

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=6427374

I'll be adding either the ASUS or Auzentech sound card to this build upon release. I'd like to add a HD tuner of some sort (hauppage?) to it also... any suggestions on that? Also the reason why I chose this LG HD/Blu-ray combo drive is because I read this Lite-On drive http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106227 has problems reading Dual-Layer blu-rays... anyone know if thats been fixed?

Edit: Also I imagine I will be using Vista 32-bit edition.

Thanks

renethx

07-15-08, 05:10 AM

renethx

07-15-08, 05:13 AM

quantumstate

07-15-08, 06:48 AM

It's full HD decoding for Blu-ray discs, as well as for well-encoded .mkv (but still need a top end processor for other mkv files). For sound, lossles LPCM 7.1.
Excellent.

My only worry would be the heat of a 3GHz processor in a tiny case, though again the newest Dual Core processors seem to wind down nicely when they are not usefully employed.
Or, put a mobile processor in there. My goal is a green machine that screams. Why wouldn't a board like the DG45ID (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45ID/DG45ID-overview.htm) take a mobile like the X9100 (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2xe/specifications.htm) (44w), for example?

Well you wont get that with a Mini-ITX board. :)
Gee, I've just discovered that a micro-ATX is much larger than a mini-ATX! Who would have guessed? Micro is fine with me, so I have more on-board.

Madmikeee

07-15-08, 08:58 AM

I am seeing alot of questions being asked and answered about "How's MY build look?" "What do you suggest for ____" but I am not seeing any updates to the guide itself like which software people are using, Monitors (LCD, Projectors, Plasmas, rear projection. Which sound cards and how they are actually setting up their systems. Seeing all the hardware is great, seeing a general setting up and tuning the system would be a nice addition. What software is the most robust and what are people using?
I have been playing around with XP MCE, Vista MCE and Media Portal and woud like to see info on that,

I have been reading this thread since about a week after it was created (LAST YEAR) and am not seeing any useful updates because everyone is so busy answering questions instead of just finishing the guide. For some reason I am doubting this thread is going to become un-hijacked. :(

Gangle

07-15-08, 10:19 AM

The case supports only two HDDs. Not sure about Lite-On drive's problem.

Yeah.. I was kind of worried about that, especially since I planned to use it to store blu-rays. Anyone know of any cases that hold more that 2 hard drives and also work with a microATX motherboard?

gunbunnysoulja

07-15-08, 10:43 AM

Yeah.. I was kind of worried about that, especially since I planned to use it to store blu-rays. Anyone know of any cases that hold more that 2 hard drives and also work with a microATX motherboard?

Is there any negatives to using external hard drives for BD storage?

archibael

07-15-08, 10:59 AM

Or, put a mobile processor in there. My goal is a green machine that screams. Why wouldn't a board like the DG45ID (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45ID/DG45ID-overview.htm) take a mobile like the X9100 (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2xe/specifications.htm) (44w), for example?

There have been desktop-style DIY boards which support mobile processors-- the last I can recall are the 945G boards, but there may have been some designed around GM965 as well-- but most in the last couple of years have centered around desktop parts. Power is sipped nowadays, even on desktop parts, so the value of MOTD as a solution has been reduced compared to the "bad old days" where when your Pentium-D was rated at 130W... it actually drew 130W much of the time.

I'll let you know if I hear of any, though.

Gangle

07-15-08, 11:57 AM

Is there any negatives to using external hard drives for BD storage?
I thought about that but I wasn't sure if external storage was fast enough to deal with big blu-ray files?

gunbunnysoulja

07-15-08, 12:12 PM

I thought about that but I wasn't sure if external storage was fast enough to deal with big blu-ray files?

Hopefully someone that has experience with BD/HD storage on externals can chime in, as I am hoping to use externals.

USB2.0, FireWire 800, FireWire 400??

renethx

07-15-08, 12:16 PM

I thought about that but I wasn't sure if external storage was fast enough to deal with big blu-ray files?
USB 2.0 is fast enough: 480 Mb/s, BD movies: 54 Mb/s. But if you store HD contents, maybe you'd better go with AMS DS-2350S eSATA 5 bay SATA Enclosure (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332017) (equipped with SiI4726 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=74) SATA to 5-Port SATA Device SteelVine Storage Processor). The box comes with a SiI3132-based 2-port eSATA PCIe x1 host controller. You can connect up to two boxes (10 HDDs) to one host controller card. Other solutions are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12730821#post12730821). Eventually you may want to build a dedicated media server.

gunbunnysoulja

07-15-08, 12:18 PM

thanks again renethx!

craig aguiar

07-15-08, 03:55 PM

Hello all. I'm trying to find a way to get all of the goodness of the new HD Audio formats into my receiver, which is a Denon AVR-2308ci which doesn't decode any of the new formats. It does how ever accept multi chanel PCM over it's HDMI inputs. from reading many posts I've basicly figured that I need to get either a new intel G35 based MoBo or wait for one of the new fancy video cards that will output HMDI and have a PAP. I was happy to find this out thinking I finally had a sollution but then I read a post in this thread saying that Denon receivers won't accept multi chanel PCM from a computer via HDMI input. WHAT WHAT WHAT? Typically I AM the guy that everything happens to but has it happened again? Even if I do get the right software, MoBo, video card, cable, and calorie free cola, will i still be held back by my receiver???

Any insight would be appreciated. All i want is to know that with x MoBo, and or y video card, I can get multi chanel PCM into my Denon AVR-2308ci. Can someone fill in the X and Y for me?

Thanks, Craig

renethx

07-15-08, 04:20 PM

Any insight would be appreciated. All i want is to know that with x MoBo, and or y video card, I can get multi chanel PCM into my Denon AVR-2308ci. Can someone fill in the X and Y for me?
Currently the possible values of x and y are:

- x = G35, GeForce 8200/8300 (AMD 790GX soon)
- y = Radeon HD 4850

Each of them has its own thread and you can search or ask there :

- G35 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=938473)
- GeForce 8200/8300 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990188)
- Radeon HD 4850 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041621)

termite

07-15-08, 07:37 PM

Smitty2k1

07-15-08, 07:41 PM

Gee, I've just discovered that a micro-ATX is much larger than a mini-ATX! Who would have guessed? Micro is fine with me, so I have more on-board.

Careful, its Micro-ATX and Mini-ITX, not ATX. While I'm not trying to be nit-picky I just want to avoid confusion in the future. :)

Hope that helps.

quantumstate

07-15-08, 08:01 PM

Power is sipped nowadays, even on desktop parts, so the value of MOTD as a solution has been reduced compared to the "bad old days" where when your Pentium-D was rated at 130W... it actually drew 130W much of the time.
I don't understand. Why (technically) wouldn't the X9100 work in the DG45ID? The X9100 is rated at 44w full-bore, whereas the comparable E8400 draws 65w. Lower structure dimensions and lower power means less waste heat.

And thanks Smitty. (Pfffff... why do they do that?)

David O

07-15-08, 09:55 PM

Gee, I've just discovered that a micro-ATX is much larger than a mini-ATX! Who would have guessed? Micro is fine with me, so I have more on-board.
Mini-ITX is small 17cm square. Micro is OK but the cases you find (and there are not that many which look really good anyway) are generally not a lot smaller than full ATX - compare the depth of the Antec Fusion V2 case to a full ATX case for example. So I've rejected Micro-ATX as an option.

Smitty2k1

07-15-08, 10:31 PM

Mini-ITX is small 17cm square. Micro is OK but the cases you find (and there are not that many which look really good anyway) are generally not a lot smaller than full ATX - compare the depth of the Antec Fusion V2 case to a full ATX case for example. So I've rejected Micro-ATX as an option.

I very much enjoy the form and function of my Fusion V2 :)

gunbunnysoulja

07-15-08, 11:13 PM

I very much enjoy the form and function of my Fusion V2 :)

Antec Fusion, FTMFW!

RichTJ99

07-15-08, 11:41 PM

renethx

07-15-08, 11:48 PM

While I'm waiting for my Asus P5Q-E MB and XFX 8600 GT Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150258)
I'm wondering which slot I have to connect the video card to..
I'm coming from an older system where I used the AGP.
My first time with PCI-E stuff...so bear with me. :o
Blue slot. You may use two black slots, but they work at a slower speed (x8, 1.1 x4 respectively). 1.1 x4 is fast enough for HTPC tasks, though.

renethx

07-16-08, 12:13 AM

Hi,

I am having a depth issue with my cabinet. I have a 17" standard mid tower ATX case that is a bit too deep (@ 17"). I think 15" would make it not so snug (in terms of depth).

Any idea how to search on Newegg for a case thats no more than 15" deep?

I am debating on spending $50 on a cheapie case (270 power supply uggg) & $50 on a cheapie Micro ATX mobo & moving my not used in 6 months Dual Core 3.2ghz processor, ram, hd, etc, into that case.

Or spending $400 or so on an newer build. I know the obvious answer is spend 100 but I would hate to spend 100 & then spend 400 on the newer hardware.

Any ideas on a small case?
Check my guide first. Then search in Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/PowerSearch.aspx?N=2010090690&SubCategory=690&GASearch=3). The manufacturers I did not mention in my guide are Athenatech, Compucase, In Win, Linkworld Electronics. They sell cheap mATX HTPC cases.

archibael

07-16-08, 01:12 AM

I don't understand. Why (technically) wouldn't the X9100 work in the DG45ID? The X9100 is rated at 44w full-bore, whereas the comparable E8400 draws 65w. Lower structure dimensions and lower power means less waste heat.

And thanks Smitty. (Pfffff... why do they do that?)

X9100 is a mobile socket (479 pins, no lid), whereas the E or Q series processors are a desktop socket (775 lands, lidded).

Physically incompatible.

quantumstate

07-16-08, 08:38 AM

Hm archibael, as they are both Socket775 I assumed they were built the same, but maybe not. Odd.

David, the MicroATX cases are smaller in the dimension that counts for me, depth. Compare ATX with microATX:
W H D Drives Slots Cardreader

Thermaltake Bach 17.0 6.7 17.7 5 7 - $100
DH102 17.1 6.0 16.8 3 7 - $430
Silverstone LC18 16.7 6.7 17.4 5vd 7 bay $270
CW03 16.9 7.2 17.2 6vd 7 bay $695
GD01B 16.9 6.7 16.9 6vd 7 5-1 $230
Origen X11 17.1 6.1 16.5 4 7 bay
X15 17.1 6.7 16.5 4vd 7
S16T 17.1 6.9 15.4 4 7 5-1 $700
MonCaso 932p 17.0 6.8 18.5 4 6 5-1 $460

W H D Drives PwrSupp Cardreader Fans
Micro-ATX cases
Origen S10V 17.1 4.5 15.4 2 ATX 5-1 4 x 60mm $369
Moneual 301B --- no info ---
Lian-Li PC-C37 17.1 3.7 14.9 2 ATX - 1 x 70mm $219
Silverstone GD02B 16.9 6.1 14.2 2vd ATX - 2 x 80mm $385
ML01B-R 13.0 3.9 16.7 1 300w PSU 26-1 1 x 80mm $129

... And Rich you can see I've done your work for you. Now I just have to figure out which one I like... leaning toward the S10V.

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 09:17 AM

Any Antec Fusion Black 430 case owners out there? 17.5 deep or 16.3 deep.

Hi,

I was curious if you wouldnt mind measuring the Antec Fusion Black 430 case? The newegg specs vs the Antec specs say that the depth is either

Newegg:
Dimensions&Weight
Height 5.5"
Width 16.3"
Depth 17.5"

Antec:
Unit Dimensions:
- 5.75" (H) x 17.5" (W) x 16.3" (D)

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15739#

I am playing an inches game to get things to fit.

My current non-htpc case is 17", so I dont really want anything bigger.

Thanks,
Rich

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 09:18 AM

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 09:31 AM

Blue slot. You may use two black slots, but they work at a slower speed (x8, 1.1 x4 respectively). 1.1 x4 is fast enough for HTPC tasks, though.

Ren, that Asus board is an ATX, I think I need to stick with a micro ATX. I plan to only use this HTPC setup with a 46" LCD TV. Does the Geforce 8600 output a signal even if it doesnt detect a source (say the PC boots before the TV is turned on)?

EDIT: No onboard video for me please :)

quantumstate

07-16-08, 09:31 AM

I just can not see why everyone likes the Fusion.

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 09:38 AM

I think I like it for the size. However if its 17.5 deep & not 16.3 deep, its not for me.

renethx

07-16-08, 09:38 AM

I was curious if you wouldnt mind measuring the Antec Fusion Black 430 case?
W445 x D424 x H146 (inc. feet) mm = W17.5" x D16.7" x H5.75"

renethx

07-16-08, 09:58 AM

I like that Lian-Li PC-C37 but of course its not out yet... The Antec Fusion Black 430 case is also nice too (ready today)

I still am not sure what makes more sense, should I:

1. Spend $100 bucks on an older system sitting around 3.2ghz Dual Core (100 being on the case & the mobo together)

2. Spend 650-800 on a new system (100 mobo, 100 video, 150 BR DVD, HD (have one already), 200 case, 40 ram, 200 cpu)

3. Spend nothing & use the 17" deep tower I have now.

The problem is the tower I have now is likely setup to have heat go up not sideways.

Any thoughts?

Without telling us what components (model number, please) you already have, you won't get a right answer.

PC-C37 accepts only a low-profile graphics card, while you are asking no IGP but GeForce 8600 GT which is full-height ... a bit perplexing.

archibael

07-16-08, 10:43 AM

Hm archibael, as they are both Socket775 I assumed they were built the same, but maybe not. Odd.

Where are you getting that X9100 is Socket775?

http://www.intel.com/support/processors/mobile/core2extreme/sb/CS-028768.htm

Micro-FCPGA. PGA is "Pin Grid Array", and Socket775 is LGA ("Land Grid Array" aka no pins).

swilde

07-16-08, 10:55 AM

Hey guys, I ahve been reading this thread over the past month or so and am very grateful for the great information that is here. I am about to build my first computer and am creating a HTPC based on the information I found here.

My main queston is, if I use a high end video card, I was thinking one the the 4850s, can I skimp on the processor? I found a Athlon x2 dual core 5000+ Be for about 65 bucks the other day and was thinking I could save some money by using that with the higher end card since the card would be doing most of the work anyway, My other components are as follows

2gb ocz platinum ram
MB GIGABYTE GA-MA78GPM-DS2H 770 RT
CASE ANTEC|MINI P180 RT
HD 640G|WD 7K 16M WD6400AAKS
CPU COOLER SCYTHE USA|SCMNJ

Any input or advice would be appreciated. I will mostly be using this to play movies and play occasional games, I am not a big gamer but do enjoy them sometimes. Eventually I want to adda media server but it might be a little while. Right now I only have an older Onkyo reciever with 6.1 channel sound and no HDMI but hopefully that will change in the next few months as full HDMI compatible models drop in price.

I would like my machine to be somehwat future proof, will these parts fill my needs for a couple of years?

renethx

07-16-08, 11:29 AM

My main queston is, if I use a high end video card, I was thinking one the the 4850s, can I skimp on the processor?
Yes, you can skimp on both processor and motherboard, Athlon X2 2.5GHz and GA-MA78GM-S2H are enough. SidePort memory is a totally useless addition. A possible problem of mATX is that there is not enough PCIe x1 slots. If you use HD 4850, a PCIe TV tuner and want to add a PCIe x1 HDMI sound card in future (for HD audio bitstreaming), you are out of luck.

swilde

07-16-08, 11:34 AM

I guess I am too new to looking at home theater through a computer, does the sound card make that big of a differece? I thought htese new cards supported HDMI full HD sound from the BD and between that and a new receiver I would be covered.

renethx

07-16-08, 11:47 AM

gunbunnysoulja

07-16-08, 12:00 PM

I just can not see why everyone likes the Fusion.

It's definitely my favorite mATX design.

2 120mm fans, looks great, simple, built in IR, BLUE customizable VFD!, triple chamber design to separate heat and noise, decent price point.

xj-boonie

07-16-08, 12:06 PM

The difference between HDMI audio from HD 4850 and that from a new HDMI sound card is:

- HD 4850: 16-bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS
- HDMI sound card: full-resolution multichannel LPCM, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream, DD 5.1, DTS

If you choose a HDMI sound card, you don't need HD 4850, IGP is enough.

- IGP + Athlon X2: perfect for 1080p
- IGP + Phenom X3/X4: perfect for 1080p/i

So if I want 5.1 sound through the S/PDIF for now, can use IGP (probably 8200), and then later, when I upgrade my receiver to an HDMI one, just add a HDMI sound card, right? I don't need a slot for a tuner as the server will have all the tuners.

renethx

07-16-08, 12:10 PM

So if I want 5.1 sound through the S/PDIF for now, can use IGP (probably 8200), and then later, when I upgrade my receiver to an HDMI one, just add a HDMI sound card, right? I don't need a slot for a tuner as the server will have all the tuners.
That's right. Basically any GPU with HDMI out can be used with a HDMI sound card.

swilde

07-16-08, 12:19 PM

renethx

07-16-08, 12:29 PM

so if I understand you correctly, with the configuration I posted earlier I am better off buying a high quality sound card rather than a high end video card?

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.
Yes. And HD 4850 consumes +50W power compared with IGP at BD movie playback. Ultimately HD 4850 is for gamers (and PowerDirector users?)

xj-boonie

07-16-08, 01:57 PM

Renethx, just wondering when you are going to post the update for mATX systems in post 2522.

watjac92

07-16-08, 02:39 PM

I just can not see why everyone likes the Fusion.

I like the Fusion because it has large fans which equal low noise and lots of airflow. Many htpc cases have tiny little fans that would have to be turned way up to equal the airflow of the antec case, and that would cause them to be pretty loud. The fans are also right where the cpu heatsink sits so I can get away with no heatsink fan. The fusion is also a pretty decent price for what you get.

etcarroll

07-16-08, 02:55 PM

I'm in the same boat as swilde, built my BD enabled htpc with parts listed below, it's worked fine so far. Heck, I even grabbed an e8400 off of eBay back a month ago, haven't bothered to install it.

But I will be upgrading my AVR to to get latest hd sound codecs, so will need a hd sound card at that time. Do these cards pose any new/specific requirements on the mobo?

E2200 2.2GHz (could be upgraded to e8400)
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L
SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16
2 gig Crucial RAM
LG dual purpose HD DVD

so if I understand you correctly, with the configuration I posted earlier I am better off buying a high quality sound card rather than a high end video card?

Thanks again for your help, it is very much appreciated.

quantumstate

07-16-08, 03:37 PM

If you use HD 4850, a PCIe TV tuner and want to add a PCIe x1 HDMI sound card in future (for HD audio bitstreaming), you are out of luck.
Unless you get the Intel DG45ID (
http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45ID/DG45ID-overview.htm), which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.

I like the Fusion because it has large fans which equal low noise and lots of airflow. Many htpc cases have tiny little fans that would have to be turned way up to equal the airflow of the antec case, and that would cause them to be pretty loud.
Reading the review on Origen's S10V, they say it's almost silent with 4ea 60mm fans. Does anyone own one? And there don't seem to be any complaints about 2ea 80mm fans, as are in the Silverstone GD02mt. I am just about to pull the trigger on one of them.

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by RichTJ99
I like that Lian-Li PC-C37 but of course its not out yet... The Antec Fusion Black 430 case is also nice too (ready today)

I still am not sure what makes more sense, should I:

1. Spend $100 bucks on an older system sitting around 3.2ghz Dual Core (100 being on the case & the mobo together)

2. Spend 650-800 on a new system (100 mobo, 100 video, 150 BR DVD, HD (have one already), 200 case, 40 ram, 200 cpu)

3. Spend nothing & use the 17" deep tower I have now.

The problem is the tower I have now is likely setup to have heat go up not sideways.

Any thoughts?

Without telling us what components (model number, please) you already have, you won't get a right answer.

PC-C37 accepts only a low-profile graphics card, while you are asking no IGP but GeForce 8600 GT which is full-height ... a bit perplexing.

Hi,

The mobo is a Asus P4C-800E Deluxe, 2 gigs ram, 250 gig sata drive, I have a few different AGP graphics card (X800 I think is the newest).

Is there a low profile Geforce 8600? Or something comperable that wont have an issue if the TV is off when the computer boots?

Also, what are the low profile graphic options these days? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Rich

quantumstate

07-16-08, 04:49 PM

I think I like (the Fusion) for the size.
It appears that he somehow does not understand my #2603.

watjac92

07-16-08, 07:13 PM

Unless you get the Intel DG45ID (
http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45ID/DG45ID-overview.htm), which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.

Reading the review on Origen's S10V, they say it's almost silent with 4ea 60mm fans. Does anyone own one? And there don't seem to be any complaints about 2ea 80mm fans, as are in the Silverstone GD02mt. I am just about to pull the trigger on one of them.

That case is nice but I prefer the separate zones of the antec fusion and again the 120mm fans. On the antec the power supply is over on its own side so that it doesn't have to either suck up hot air from inside the case and so run hotter and/or run its fans louder or suck air in from outside and make the inside of the case warmer. I hate small fans and the noise they make. If you compare equal types of fans a larger fan can move more air at a slower, quieter speed. Just the way it is. I like to make sure my components are cooled well especially with the warm video card and processor I have in my case. So for me I don't think I'll be buying a case with anything less than 120 mm fans any time soon. My 900 case has a 200mm fan :D

That case you linked to is also pretty expensive compared to the fusion, especially when you figure in the nice power supply that the fusion comes with. I only payed 120 for my antec fusion v2 a while back. I don't believe I would get much use from a small 4.3 inch touch screen. I would want at least 8 inches I think.

Different people like different things but for me the fusion was a good value and one of the better designed cases, especially thermally.

John Tibbs

07-16-08, 07:50 PM

So after reading just asmall portion of thread for about the last hour, I am suffering a severe case of information overload.

It really irks me that all of this technology is so hobbled by DRM that it is almost pointless to build a HTPC in the first place.

I mean what a batch of S&$t all of this HDCP crap is!

So if I understand the gist of it, in order to play h264 content my option is to buy this Asus sound card and a decent p45 MB with IGP and I'm set for stutter free 1080p operation?

Should I just wait another year for better hw options?

Would it make more sense to down convert 1080p material to 720p and be done with it?

I remember listening to a podcast from Leo Laporte's site (Security Now) that described the DRM madness that is Vista. Steve Gibson explained all of the DRM BS that was going to be shoved down our throats in order to display any HD content out of Vista. And It’s all come home to roost!

Are there any Linux options out there for HD audio/HTPC that are viable?

quantumstate

07-16-08, 08:22 PM

John DRM was exactly one of my motivations in converting fully to Debian ten years ago. I am a real estate developer, but I learned it anyway, and now I prefer Kubuntu over everything else including OS X.

After extensive research I am presently designing my first HTPC, which will be DRM-free and I will have complete control over all my content. I've just bought the Silverstone GD02B-mt (takes full-sized cards) and tried to buy the DG45ID but it is simply unavailable yet. I'll have a 750GB Barracuda 7200.11, 4GB RAM, and that's about it. Have yet to decide whether a HD-PVR or R5000-HD for capture.

This will be my media machine (Cygnus, the swan) on which I'll be running MythTV to capture and transcode movies and shows to BluRay format as a DVR, off a Dish ViP211 which I bought on eBay for $126. Will soon buy another ViP211 (second tuner) as soon as I get my system built and running.

I am enforcing my rights under the Fair Use Doctrine as found by the Supreme Court in the Sony Betamax case, which corrupt Republicans tried to take away from us with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1999.

Hope this helps.

RichTJ99

07-16-08, 09:35 PM

It appears that he somehow does not understand my #2603.

I saw that, I think most of those are out of my budget unfortunately. Let me rephrase that, if I get into HTPC, then its in my budget & at this point, i am planning to use it as a DVD player & a web browser (for the most part). I might start using it for more though.

renethx

07-16-08, 11:14 PM

Renethx, just wondering when you are going to post the update for mATX systems in post 2522.
In a couple of days, hopefully. :)

renethx

07-16-08, 11:19 PM

But I will be upgrading my AVR to to get latest hd sound codecs, so will need a hd sound card at that time. Do these cards pose any new/specific requirements on the mobo?
Absolutely no. You can use any mb with a vacant PCIe x1 (or x4, x8, x16) slot.

renethx

07-16-08, 11:58 PM

The mobo is a Asus P4C-800E Deluxe, 2 gigs ram, 250 gig sata drive, I have a few different AGP graphics card (X800 I think is the newest).

Is there a low profile Geforce 8600? Or something comperable that wont have an issue if the TV is off when the computer boots?

Also, what are the low profile graphic options these days? Any recommendations?
Your current system is too old to upgrade (Socket 478 mb & CPU, DDR SDRAM, AGP). You'd better build a new system.

If you don't mind an AMD system, there are two good systems with IGP:

- AMD 780G chipset system
- GeForce 8200/8300 chipset system

If you don't like IGP, you can always add a discrete card. If you stick to Intel, see my recommendation MicroATX Low-End II. Of course the graphics card can be GeForce 8400 GS (G98), 8500 GT, 8600 GT/GTS or higher. 8600 GT or higher is recommended for better deinterlacing. This (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133222) is the only low-profile (ready) GeForce 8600 GT card. You have to find a low-profile bracket. Noise could be a problem with this small fan. You can find several low-profile fanless GeForce 8400 GS (G98)/8500 GT and Radeon HD 3450 cards.

I did a quick test if the TV is off when the computer boots with AMD 780G and GeForce 8600 GT. Both are OK. I can't guarantee it in your system though.

renethx

07-17-08, 12:11 AM

So if I understand the gist of it, in order to play h264 content my option is to buy this Asus sound card and a decent p45 MB with IGP and I'm set for stutter free 1080p operation?
Sorry, you misunderstand DRM. Nowadays, playing BD movies in PC is pretty easy. If your display supports HDCP, then you can use any of my recommended systems for perfect BD playback.

Sound is the weakest part in PC. Right now the best sound you get from PC is 16bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM. The upcoming ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 and Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 (expected in late July and September respectively) supports full-resolution LPCM and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio.

John Tibbs

07-17-08, 01:14 AM

Sorry, you misunderstand DRM. Nowadays, playing BD movies in PC is pretty easy. If your display supports HDCP, then you can use any of my recommended systems for perfect BD playback.

Sound is the weakest part in PC. Right now the best sound you get from PC is 16bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM. The upcoming ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 and Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 (expected in late July and September respectively) supports full-resolution LPCM and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio.

Well that is what I was getting at, the HD sound. That's what I want, but I was also speaking to the H264 issues that have been raised here and elsewhere rather than BD playback per se. (I guess I would just use my PS3 for BD playback anyway). There seems to be much discussion about whether or not those sound cards will be able to deliver the goods depending on the implementation of PAP embedded in the proprietary software the cards will ship with.

I guess that's where my frustration begins to set in. I know there will be driver issues with these apps initially, and so it turns into another period where we will become beta testers for this new DRM implementation.

I know that I will definitely wait for those sound cards to show up in the channel and see what people willing to take the plunge have to say about them.

My point with DRM is that it adds an extra layer of complexity t that interferes with getting the full HD content that was supposed to “revolutionize” home theatre.
I mean they have already cracked BD playback for all intents and purposes so what is the point?

This is what killed DVD-A and SACD as well. A disc that I can't separate individual audio tracks out to a server to play back in any order I want in high resolution audio SUCKS. This is not the 60's where you bought albums and listened to one or 2 sides at time on a turntable (yes I know vinyl is making somewhat of a comeback but that’s a different topic) and I really liked having to run 5 patch cables in to my receiver from the player in order to listen to those formats (I know now that this has been fixed in 1.3 HDMI specs but that wasn't an option when I bought in).

Oh well, I guess I can wait some more for what I want to achieve, it just seems to never get there.

renethx

07-17-08, 03:01 AM

Well that is what I was getting at, the HD sound. That's what I want, but I was also speaking to the H264 issues that have been raised here and elsewhere rather than BD playback per se. (I guess I would just use my PS3 for BD playback anyway). There seems to be much discussion about whether or not those sound cards will be able to deliver the goods depending on the implementation of PAP embedded in the proprietary software the cards will ship with.

I guess that's where my frustration begins to set in. I know there will be driver issues with these apps initially, and so it turns into another period where we will become beta testers for this new DRM implementation.

I know that I will definitely wait for those sound cards to show up in the channel and see what people willing to take the plunge have to say about them.

My point with DRM is that it adds an extra layer of complexity t that interferes with getting the full HD content that was supposed to “revolutionize” home theatre.
I mean they have already cracked BD playback for all intents and purposes so what is the point?

This is what killed DVD-A and SACD as well. A disc that I can't separate individual audio tracks out to a server to play back in any order I want in high resolution audio SUCKS. This is not the 60's where you bought albums and listened to one or 2 sides at time on a turntable (yes I know vinyl is making somewhat of a comeback but that’s a different topic) and I really liked having to run 5 patch cables in to my receiver from the player in order to listen to those formats (I know now that this has been fixed in 1.3 HDMI specs but that wasn't an option when I bought in).

Oh well, I guess I can wait some more for what I want to achieve, it just seems to never get there.
What H.264 issue are you referring to?

Part of confusion in PAP is due to the fact that the audio part of AACS rules was obscure at the time of Vista development and hence MS left PAP in an unfinished form. Perhaps we have to wait for Winodws 7 for a complete PAP solution in Windows.

SACD is banned in PC from the beginnng. Not sure about CPPM with a commercial software player/HDMI sound card in future.

DRM mess is a kind of trade off for the open architecture of PC. HTPC can do an amazing number of things that other solutions can't do. Go for a closed system the content provider originally intends, or accept mess and enjoy HTPC ... it's up to each user. And rambling on DRM here is not a good idea, that won't help anybody to build a HTPC (that's the purpose of this thread).

John Tibbs

07-17-08, 07:04 AM

What H.264 issue are you referring to?

Part of confusion in PAP is due to the fact that the audio part of AACS rules was obscure at the time of Vista development and hence MS left PAP in an unfinished form. Perhaps we have to wait for Winodws 7 for a complete PAP solution in Windows.

SACD is banned in PC from the beginning. Not sure about CPPM with a commercial software player/HDMI sound card in future.

DRM mess is a kind of trade off for the open architecture of PC. HTPC can do an amazing number of things that other solutions can't do. Go for a closed system the content provider originally intends, or accept mess and enjoy HTPC ... it's up to each user. And rambling on DRM here is not a good idea, that won't help anybody to build a HTPC (that's the purpose of this thread).

OK I see your point on the DRM, but Vista was supposed to have this PAP support from the get go (then again they were supposed to have 1394b support as well. I have yet to see it [nor do I care anymore as eSATA fills that void quite well]). But when I looked into this 2 years ago (building a HTPC), I kinda threw my arms up and walked away due to lots of the same kind of issues I still see mentioned now. I'd thought we would have been a lot farther along now then we are.

The h264 stuff I was referring to was the stuttery playback issues that some posters were struggling with 1080p material.

Clearly building and maintaining a HTPC is very much a "roll your own" proposition and I do get that, I only wish that there were some better solutions out there for the 1080p and HD audio stuff. I will just have to assess the trade offs involved and decide how much longer I want to wait before I commit to my project.

Your thread is nice info gathering point and I do appreciate your time and efforts in maintaining it, so with that I will end my rant against the evil empire that is DRM and return to the sidelines in my quest for HTPC nirvana :D

etcarroll

07-17-08, 07:32 AM

Absolutely no. You can use any mb with a vacant PCIe x1 (or x4, x8, x16) slot.

Great!

Guess I'll wait on the reviews for the ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 later this month.

As always, thanks for the feedback.

John Tibbs

07-17-08, 09:08 AM

renethx

07-17-08, 10:53 AM

Unless you get the Intel DG45ID (
http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45ID/DG45ID-overview.htm), which has built-in BluRay hardware decode for video and audio, and HD sound built right onto the board. Also has a 16bit PCIe, 2ea 1bits, and a regular PCI slot in a microATX.
Nowadays who uses IGP without hardware BD video decode? (Only Intel G35 users!) Hardware acceleration is a norm. Right now HA of G45 is crappy (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3356&p=5). We have to wait patiently for driver/software player development. Availability of the chipset is also in question (read my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14283791#post14283791); G45 may not be available in large quantities in Q3). Considering them, perhaps October or later is a good time to build a G45 system. Audio decode is done not by hardware but by a software player.

How about hardware deinterlacing of G45? G35 is extremely poor. I don't expect much improvement in G45.

By "HD sound built right onto the board", perhaps you mean multichannel LPCM HDMI audio. This is not a novel feature either. Please read my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13872683#post13872683) if you want to know what other solutions are available now. We don't know yet what software player supports G45's PAP. Without a player, PAP is useless (every BD audio is downsampled to 16bit/48kHz).

All in all, the only advantage of the G45 system over the other IGP systems is perhaps the processor, but processor plays little role in HTPC if HA works. Yep, my opinion could change once I get a G45 mb. :D

FYI the basic unit of PCIe is called a "lane". For example, a link consisting of 16 lanes is usually expressed as "x16". Yup, 16 lanes allows 16 bits to be sent in each direction simultaneously, but nobody (except you) uses an expression like "a 16bit PCIe". DG45ID has one PCIe 2.0 x16 slot, two PCIe 1.1 x1 slots and a PCI slot.

korben5

07-17-08, 11:26 AM

Thanks renethx for your invaluable guide.

The retailer I am going with does not carry the Radeon 3650 Silent, I've been looking at the Gainward 8600GT Bliss instead. How much of an improvement is the 9600GT, as it is 50-60% more expensive?

Any thoughts on the suitability on this? My budget is relatively small right now, but would I still like to be somewhat future proof. Or should I try to muster up patience and and wait for the 9500?

I run Meedio on my machine and mainly use it for TV/Movies and the occasional gaming but need to upgrade to allow for BD/HD.

renethx

07-17-08, 11:55 AM

I've been looking at the Gainward 8600GT Bliss instead. How much of an improvement is the 9600GT, as it is 50-60% more expensive?

Any thoughts on the suitability on this? My budget is relatively small right now, but would I still like to be somewhat future proof. Or should I try to muster up patience and and wait for the 9500?

I run Meedio on my machine and mainly use it for TV/Movies and the occasional gaming but need to upgrade to allow for BD/HD.
8600 GT and 9600 GT are basically identical in video playback. 9600 is slightly better in deinterlacing however. 3D performance of 9600 GT is much better, of course.

9500 GT is released on July 29. The main differences between 9500 GT and 8600 GT are 65 nm vs. 80 nm process, PCIe 2.0 vs. PCIe 1.0. Video playback is the same as 8600 GT (no VC-1 acceleration). 3D performance is about 10% better. If you don't need a new video card immediately, maybe you'd better wait (unless you go with 9600 GT).

swilde

07-17-08, 11:56 AM

renethx

07-17-08, 12:18 PM

Renethx, I am building my HTPC this weekend, or starting at least, since it is my first build I do not anticipate it actually working immediately but now I am looking into software.

I love what I have seen of mythTV but am not a computer person per se and linux is intimidating as are the requirements to use Myth. I am thinking I will probably have to use Vista media center.

I guess my primary question here is if using AnyDVD to remove restrictions from the movies I play will solve all this PAP audio stuff that I really cannot understand even though I have read your entire thread on it? To be honest this all seems well over the heads of the average user.

If I use AnyDVD do I still have to worry about all these protections messing up the audio on my movies?

Also any software advice would be great. This machine will primarily be used for web browsing and movies with occasional games.
Forget about Linux. Go with Vista Home Premium (32-bit).

Every current commercial software player automatically downsamples audio from every source (premium or not) to 16-bit/48kHz, so nobody can test if AnyDVD helps to avoid downsampling right now. And it is debatable if an ordinary listener can discern 16bit/48kHz and 24bit/96kHz.

If gaming is one of your purposes, HD 4850 could be the best choice right now. At least it supports multichannel LPCM HDMI audio and many can hear difference between (even downsampled) LPCM and DD/DTS. It all depends on how much 3D performance you want, of course.

swilde

07-17-08, 01:19 PM

Thanks for your quick responses, your input ahs been invaluable and I am sure I will continue to use it as I develop my home entertainment system over the next while.

Thanks again!

MrFoxer

07-17-08, 01:30 PM

Every current software player automatically downsamples audio from every source (premium or not) to 16-bit/48kHz, so nobody can test if AnyDVD helps to avoid downsampling right now. And it is debatable if an ordinary listener can discern 16bit/48kHz and 24bit/96kHz.

If gaming is one of your purposes, HD 4850 could be the best choice right now. At least it supports multichannel LPCM HDMI audio and many can hear difference between (even downsampled) LPCM and DD/DTS. It all depends on how much 3D performance you want, of course.

Didn't I read somewhere that a hardcore audio/HTPC enthusiast could use AnyDVD, convert to FLAC audio in an mkv container and get 7.1 multichannel LPCM out at better than 16bit/48kHz? Or did I misunderstand?

archibael

07-17-08, 01:34 PM

Yep, that works.

MrFoxer

07-17-08, 01:38 PM

I love what I have seen of mythTV but am not a computer person per se and linux is intimidating as are the requirements to use Myth. I am thinking I will probably have to use Vista media center.

I currently use XP with GBPVR. GBPVR is free and has lots of options and plugins. It's less intimidating than a linux build and more open than Media Center. You can even install over MC, so if you don't like it, switch back to MC.

MrFoxer

07-17-08, 01:52 PM

Yep, that works.[AnyDVD, FLAC audio in mkv to get 7.1 multichannel LPCM out at better than 16bit/48kHz]

I'm not a hardcore audio guy, but to fill out the gray areas and as long as I'm on the subject: What does one need to get the FLAC audio 7.1 multichannel LPCM out at better than 16bit/48kHz once you've made the MKV container with it? I've got a Gigabyte P35-DS4 MB with integrated 7.1 multichannel analog outputs, will that work?

renethx says:
- HD 4850: 16-bit/48kHz multichannel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS
- HDMI sound card: full-resolution multichannel LPCM, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream, DD 5.1, DTS

Is there an underlying assumption in his comment about limitations imposed by protection/players when decoding/playing BD, or does it mean that the HDMI sound card is the only way to get full-resolution multichannel LPCM?

renethx

07-17-08, 02:25 PM

What does one need to get the FLAC audio 7.1 multichannel LPCM out at better than 16bit/48kHz once you've made the MKV container with it? I've got a Gigabyte P35-DS4 MB with integrated 7.1 multichannel analog outputs, will that work?
Analog audio always works. (But onboard analog will nullify the full-resolution FLAC audio.) For HDMI, you will need a HDMI solution supporting multichannel LPCM (Intel G35/G33/G965 [with HDMI out], GeForce 8200/8300, Radeon HD 4850, and the upcoming AMD 790GX, Intel G45, GeForce 9300/9400).

renethx

07-17-08, 02:28 PM

Is there an underlying assumption in his comment about limitations imposed by protection/players when decoding/playing BD, or does it mean that the HDMI sound card is the only way to get full-resolution multichannel LPCM?
Yup, the underlying assumption is that you play BD movies from a BD drive (or ISO) with a commercial software player such as PowerDVD and TotalMedia Theater. Creating your own mkv files with FLAC and playing them with a media player is not included.

amicusterrae

07-17-08, 02:44 PM

Renethx, and all contributors, thanks for this great guide. After reading it for several months, I’ve taken the plunge and will be assembling an X2 AMD-based budget system this weekend. I’m going to be using the Abit A-N78HD mobo, relying on the integrated chipset for blu-ray playback. There are couple unresolved issues I am could use some advice on.

1) what discrete video card for occasional gaming? I’d love to take advantage of hybrid SLI with a Nvidia card, and hopefully the power savings, but maybe I should wait until there are more options, forget about hybrid SLI and go with a higher end Nvidia card, or should I just go with ATI? I just don’t know what to expect with games these days, and it doesn’t help that there are no official system requirements yet for the game I want to play (Fallout 3), which doesn’t come out for a few more months.

2) what software for disc playback is preferred right now? PowerDVD or Arcsoft Total Media? There doesn't seem to be a lot of recent talk about these programs.
Thanks in advance!

Oh, and can you direct me to your instructions on fabricating an optical adaptor bracket for the mobo? I read it a while ago, and now can’t seem to find the post.

MrFoxer

07-17-08, 03:03 PM

Analog audio always works. (But onboard analog will nullify the full-resolution FLAC audio.) For HDMI, you will need a HDMI solution supporting multichannel LPCM (Intel G35/G33/G965 [with HDMI out], GeForce 8200/8300, Radeon HD 4850, and the upcoming AMD 790GX, Intel G45, GeForce 9300/9400).

Sometimes reading this thread is like swimming in molasses - sweet, but tough slogging forward and that permanent sinking feeling when you stop to catch a breath :D

Let's see if I can break this down into the parts that I understand ...

When you say "Analog audio always works" I take it you mean that 7.1 would appear at the audio outputs of my integrated audio motherboard or any other 7.1 audio card analog output. When you say "onboard analog will nullify the full-resolution FLAC audio" do I correctly understand you to mean that it would get downconverted to less than full resolution because Windows gets hold of it? Even the FLAC solution? or is it just a general comment about converting to analog before sending to your AVR?

When you say "For HDMI, you will need ...." let me break my ignorance down a bit further (it's really on display today). If I understand it correctly, when it comes to audio on HDMI from a HTPC, there are some solutions that have the audio on the same HDMI cable as the video, and others that have it on a separate parallel cable to the HDMI video cable. I'm not at all familiar with HDMI audio cards, but it would seem they all would require a separate parallel audio cable?

All of the solutions you mentioned would carry the FLAC solution as full resolution digital over HDMI - correct? Damn - sorry I started this post - I'm too unfamiliar with HDMI audio to even ask the right questions. Point me in the right direction and I'll do some reading to get the big picture. Thanks

renethx

07-17-08, 03:07 PM

I’m going to be using the Abit A-N78HD mobo, relying on the integrated chipset for blu-ray playback. There are couple unresolved issues I am could use some advice on.

1) what discrete video card for occasional gaming? I’d love to take advantage of hybrid SLI with a Nvidia card, and hopefully the power savings, but maybe I should wait until there are more options, forget about hybrid SLI and go with a higher end Nvidia card, or should I just go with ATI? I just don’t know what to expect with games these days, and it doesn’t help that there are no official system requirements yet for the game I want to play (Fallout 3), which doesn’t come out for a few more months.

2) what software for disc playback is preferred right now? PowerDVD or Arcsoft Total Media? There doesn't seem to be a lot of recent talk about these programs.
Thanks in advance!

Oh, and can you direct me to your instructions on fabricating an optical adaptor bracket for the mobo? I read it a while ago, and now can’t seem to find the post.
1) If you use a GeForce 8200 mb and in particular multichannel LPCM HDMI audio (in future in your case?), then you will need a discrete card supporting Hybrid Power. The cheapest one is

- GeForce 9800 GT, released on July 29

and this is the one I recommend. This is basically a 55 nm version of GeForce 8800 GT with the support for Hybrid Power.

2) Either one will work fine. Each has a trial version (30-day, 15-day respectively).

I explained about S/PDIF bracket in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14239783#post14239783).

renethx

07-17-08, 03:22 PM

When you say "onboard analog will nullify the full-resolution FLAC audio" do I correctly understand you to mean that it would get downconverted to less than full resolution because Windows gets hold of it? Even the FLAC solution? or is it just a general comment about converting to analog before sending to your AVR?

I mean the inferior DAC/OPAMP of onboard audio codec spoils the quality of the full-resolution audio.

If I understand it correctly, when it comes to audio on HDMI from a HTPC, there are some solutions that have the audio on the same HDMI cable as the video, and others that have it on a separate parallel cable to the HDMI video cable.

AFAIK, audio must be always muxed with video.

All of the solutions you mentioned would carry the FLAC solution as full resolution digital over HDMI - correct?

Yes.

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13872683#post13872683)?

MrFoxer

07-17-08, 03:50 PM

I mean the inferior DAC/OPAMP of onboard audio codec spoils the quality of the full-resolution audio.
Ok, got it.

AFAIK, audio must be always muxed with video.

So how do HDMI audio cards work? Do they accept video and mux it? If so, how do they get the video? I also could have sworn I saw something about using a DVI/HDMI video card (no muxed sound) and an integrated MB HDMI graphics with parallel HDMI cables.

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13872683#post13872683)?

Thanks. I do appreciate your efforts, and I have read that thread, it's just tough slogging

renethx

07-17-08, 04:04 PM

So how do HDMI audio cards work? Do they accept video and mux it? If so, how do they get the video? I also could have sworn I saw something about using a DVI/HDMI video card (no muxed sound) and an integrated MB HDMI graphics with parallel HDMI cables.
Look at this picture (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4431/xonarhdav131024uq3.png). There are two HDMI ports, one is for video in (from the video card) and the other for muxed video/audio out.

quantumstate

07-17-08, 04:57 PM

Have you considered HD audio in your plans for your system? If so what have you found WRT linux implementation of multi-channel bit streamed HD audio? Is it even an option?
The HD-PVR has an optical input, which flanges in nicely with the ViP211's optical out. So I should have at least Dolby 5.1, or whatever's sent over for the particular Dish show.

And thanks for your input Rene. If there is a better microATX option, please advise. (BTW, I am a real estate developer, not a bit-twiddler, so feel free to correct my terms, but it gets you nowhere unless you provide actual constructive advice)
Ehm, some of us are trying to advance the envelope, while others are just showing off. I don't have time for showboats. I am honestly saying what I think is best. fsck the BS.

RichTJ99

07-17-08, 10:17 PM

Well, I think i am back to square 1. I did some research, I was planning on using the following items that have been sitting powered off for years:

Canterwood mobo - P4C800E
Processor - P4 3.2ghz (not dual core, regular P4).
2 gigs of ram

However, I looked at my invoice from newegg (10/2003) & I think that is just way to old.

I have another old piece of hardware - a Dell Dimension E510 with the following specs:

Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 630
128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon X300
& some Dell Mobo.

I think that is probably also too old.

I think I want to run Vista Ultimate & make this a decent PC. I just didnt realize how old my stuff is.

My primary goal was to run Windows Media Center, & use it for web browsing & DVD movies (Email too). I think these are all pretty old & maybe should be retired.

Since the TV will be here before my parts are figured out or ordered, I think I will use it for testing purposes only (see if I like it before spending 800 bucks).

Is the equipment above too old to use?

Thanks,
Rich

BCDouglas

07-17-08, 10:51 PM

renethx

07-18-08, 12:45 AM

I have another old piece of hardware - a Dell Dimension E510 with the following specs:

Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 630
128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon X300
& some Dell Mobo.

I think that is probably also too old.

I think I want to run Vista Ultimate & make this a decent PC. I just didnt realize how old my stuff is.

My primary goal was to run Windows Media Center, & use it for web browsing & DVD movies (Email too). I think these are all pretty old & maybe should be retired.
Dell Dimension E510 is new enough for email, web browsing and DVD movies. :) You can buy a cheap, modern graphics card such as Radeon HD 3450/GeForce 8400 GS (G98) as low as $25/$30 for HD contents.

Audio? It depends on what you want.

RichTJ99

07-18-08, 09:21 AM

renethx

07-18-08, 01:26 PM

I think I am going to get a new case, mobo & video card. I am having issues with the Dell (not booting & a flashing yellow power light) & I wouldnt mind using it but something is screwy.

In any event, I think that getting a Micro ATX mobo, that Antec case, & a 8600 card (will this work - http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16814145153). Might be the way to go for starters.

I can use the 630 processor & the ram. I can upgrade both if need be later.

On a side note, what are "Low Profile Brackets" for the video card? I saw some mention of it not being included in that 8600 card.

Is that much better than the 8500 card mentioned in the mid system 2?

EDIT: I am a little confused, this video card mentioned in the system 2, XFX GeForce 8600 GT PV-T84J-USD4 doesnt look like a low profile card. Does this fit in the Antec Fusion Black 430? Do we need low profile?

EDIT2: I see that the memory in the E510 is 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz (2x512M) - I assume thats not going to work with the ASUS P5K-VM Intel G33 chipset microATX mobo? With the PC 6400 ram (2 gigs for a total of 3)?

"Low Profile Bracket" is necessary if and only if your case is low-profile. Antec Fusion 430 is a full-height case. So you don't need it. The main difference is

- 8500 GT: deinterlacing is not good
- 8600 GT: deinterlacing is good

besides 3D performance. Perhaps you'd better avoid the CHAINTECH card, I bet its fan is not quiet. XFX 8600 GT is quiet. Or you go with a fanless 8500 GT if you don't care about deinterlacing.

You can use DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz (2x512M), and 1GB is enough for XP. If you use Vista, you will need 2GB.

xboy360

07-18-08, 02:48 PM

HD 4800 series has several features not found in HD 2600/HD 3800 series:

-- Enhanced DVD upscaling (SD to HD)

I have a 4850 in my HTPC using with Vista Media Center. How do I enable the enhanced DVD upscaling? Is this in the drivers done automatically or part of some codec?

Can it upscale any thing else, i.e. divx videos?

Right now I have VMC using FFDSHOW as the default decoder, but when decoding DVD MPEG2 it uses the default Vista one (cause fast playback doesn't work with FFDSHOW).

craig aguiar

07-18-08, 04:02 PM

Look at this picture (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4431/xonarhdav131024uq3.png). There are two HDMI ports, one is for video in (from the video card) and the other for muxed video/audio out.

I've been trying to figure this out too but i now understand from your photo link that the Asus card takes the Video from where ever, mixes it with it's PAP audio, and sends that whole lot out through the HDMI. This intrigues me as, in theory, i would not have to replace my MoBo or video card. I have a XFX 8600GT video card which has DVI output. Do you think it would work in this situation? I'm concerned that it's not a HDMI out but since DVI and HDMI are virtually the same I should think it would be fine. DVI has no audio on it which doesn't matter in this case.

Thanks

MrFoxer

07-18-08, 04:30 PM

I've been trying to figure this out too but i now understand from your photo link that the Asus card takes the Video from where ever, mixes it with it's PAP audio, and sends that whole lot out through the HDMI. This intrigues me as, in theory, i would not have to replace my MoBo or video card. I have a XFX 8600GT video card which has DVI output. Do you think it would work in this situation? I'm concerned that it's not a HDMI out but since DVI and HDMI are virtually the same I should think it would be fine. DVI has no audio on it which doesn't matter in this case.

I know renethx will jump in, but I'm going to try to answer based on my current level of understanding, then he can correct anything I get wrong. I see no reason why it won't work. You should get the same video you get now with the audio muxed onto the HDMI with the video.

Going a bit further, if I understand what renethx has said, you still need to worry about finding a PAP player, or you end up with downsampled audio on the HDMI. It looks like all the current players are downsampling audio, even when there is no AACS protection present. I presume this is likely to change.

RichTJ99

07-18-08, 11:18 PM

Just to confirm, with the Antec 430, you do need a Micro ATX mobo but a regular standard graphics card will work?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129029

"Low Profile Bracket" is necessary if and only if your case is low-profile. Antec Fusion 430 is a full-height case. So you don't need it. The main difference is

- 8500 GT: deinterlacing is not good
- 8600 GT: deinterlacing is good

besides 3D performance. Perhaps you'd better avoid the CHAINTECH card, I bet its fan is not quiet. XFX 8600 GT is quiet. Or you go with a fanless 8500 GT if you don't care about deinterlacing.

You can use DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz (2x512M), and 1GB is enough for XP. If you use Vista, you will need 2GB.

Lostclusters

07-18-08, 11:57 PM

renethx

07-19-08, 12:35 AM

I've been trying to figure this out too but i now understand from your photo link that the Asus card takes the Video from where ever, mixes it with it's PAP audio, and sends that whole lot out through the HDMI. This intrigues me as, in theory, i would not have to replace my MoBo or video card. I have a XFX 8600GT video card which has DVI output. Do you think it would work in this situation? I'm concerned that it's not a HDMI out but since DVI and HDMI are virtually the same I should think it would be fine. DVI has no audio on it which doesn't matter in this case.
As MrFoxer said, you can use any video card with DVI out supporting HDCP. These HDMI sound cards may come with even a DVI-HDMI adapter.

The ASUS card is bundled with a version of TotalMedia Theater that supports PAP, while the Auzentech card is supported by PowerDVD. So we don't have to worry about PAP if we use a correct software player.

renethx

07-19-08, 12:41 AM

I have a 4850 in my HTPC using with Vista Media Center. How do I enable the enhanced DVD upscaling? Is this in the drivers done automatically or part of some codec?

Can it upscale any thing else, i.e. divx videos?

Right now I have VMC using FFDSHOW as the default decoder, but when decoding DVD MPEG2 it uses the default Vista one (cause fast playback doesn't work with FFDSHOW).
Enhanced DVD upscaling is supported by hardware/driver. CCC may have an item that control this function. Not sure about other video sources.

renethx

07-19-08, 12:47 AM

renethx

07-19-08, 01:07 AM

I was planning on building a HD HTPC out of more top of the line components, but the post BCDouglas got me thinking. If I can build one more or less out of hide so much the better. Will the following components have enough of what it takes:

Asus A8N SLI Deluxe NForce 4 SLI MCP mobo, socket 939, FX60 x2 2.6 Ghz CPU, 4 G RAM, 1 PCIe x16, 3 PCIe x1, running XP sp2.

Thinking seriously about adding the Asus Xonar 1.3 HDAV when released.

And your recommendation for the best video card, fan noise is not an issue for me.

This will only play movies (.mkv files), hopefully at 1080p with lossless 7.1 uncompress audio.
Yes, your mb/CPU has enough power for your purpose.

If you don't need deinterlacing, GeForce 8400 GS (e.g. ASUS ASUS EN8400GS SILENT/HTP/512M) or ATI Radeon HD 3450 (e.g. ASUS EAH3450/HTP/256M) is enough.

For better deinterlacing, I recommend GeForce 8600 GT or higher (excluding 8800 GTS 320MB/640MB, 8800 GTX, 8800 Ultra as these older models lack proper H.264 HA), or Radeon HD 3650 or higher.

Lostclusters

07-19-08, 01:24 PM

Thanks Renethx. You are, without a doubt, the man! I hope I got the gender right. How you manage to maintain your sanity answering all these questions is beyond me.

The ATI 4870 looks like it is right up my alley, so to speak. Are there any image quality issues to consider between ATI and Nvidia? Back a ways ATI had an edge image quality wise (I guess it was a long way back). Anything worth considering now? I have not been able to find any indication, one way or the other. I have a Panasonic 50pz85u if that makes a difference. And, would I be at a disadvantage without PCIe v2? Also, is there any differences between manufactures of the 4870? I was thinking about going with Asus because of my plans to incorporate a Xonar HDAV 1.3. At one time Visiontek was noted for better image quality. Would you have any advice along these lines?

renethx

07-19-08, 04:54 PM

audionewer

07-19-08, 06:08 PM

what is deinterlacing?

quantumstate

07-19-08, 11:04 PM

Deinterlacing is when you untie your shoes and remove the shoestrings.

renethx

07-20-08, 12:48 AM

what is deinterlacing?
Many HDTV programs are 1080i (i = interlaced; each frame is divided into even and odd field fields), that need to be "deinterlaced" somewhere (by the graphics card or HDTV) into 1080p (p = progressive).

Brian B

07-20-08, 04:28 PM

Rene (or anyone),

Can you tell me if the analog 2-ch output of an Envy card (Maddog) is any better (or more accurate-bit perfect audio, i.e. non-resampled) than that coming out of a Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L? I'm trying to decide whether to pop this card into another machine or use it in the HTPC (for 2-channel analog only).

Operating system is WinXP Pro.

Thanks!

Brian

xboy360

07-21-08, 03:12 PM

Enhanced DVD upscaling is supported by hardware/driver. CCC may have an item that control this function. Not sure about other video sources.

I don't see that option anywhere in CCC.

Do you see it?

So if I just make it playback a DVD it should just do it?

Do I need to use any special codec to playback? Does it need to do HW accelerated DVD playback in order do upscaling? (DXVA)

AbMagFab

07-21-08, 04:34 PM

Slightly off-topic - anyone have a recommendation for a home, netoworked, color laser printer?

bbadalucco

07-21-08, 11:42 PM

Slightly off-topic - anyone have a recommendation for a home, netoworked, color laser printer?

I use a OKI C3400n. Its relatively cheap and works great, google it.

Way off topic....

gunbunnysoulja

07-22-08, 01:23 AM

Can you add a fan to a fanless video card? I have the XFX 8500 GT, PV-T86J-YAFG.

monster_man

07-22-08, 03:10 AM

I've read through much of this forum and I'm still confused. Is there a way to get video and audio from the pc to the avr with one hdmi cable? I'm sorry I'm thick, but each time I read about another card here and look it up, the specs never come right out and say this. HDMI compatible or adapter are phrases they use. I'm not to keen on spending a few hundred dollars to get almost there.

I'm not looking for the a graphics card to play games at all. I have one in my desktop and it works great for surfing the net:eek:, (I don't play games I get motion sickness, weird) I have many previous builds to borrow from. If there isn't a one card solution then should I scavenge these?

P4P800-Deluxe
P4 3.0Ghz 800
Radeon 9800 All-In-Wonder
Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Asus EAX1900XT/2DHTV/512M
Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro

I just want to build a new system that I can put in my entertainment center, transfer movies/tv shows to and watch on my lcd tv. I will probably add a blu-ray recorder and some serious storage for future proofing my wants later.

I'm sorry for rehashing this, I just feel like I keep coming back to the same spot and still lost in the woods just on this one part of getting the movie or whatever onto the screen. I've read many times that the tvs have problems with aspect ratios from the video cards, I don't think that will be a problem. I can hook up my tv with s-video from my laptop with a pair of speakers plugged in to the laptop too and watch a movie, but this is such a pain.

Skylinestar

07-22-08, 08:08 AM

which processor is better in HD video playback?
AMD PhenomX3 8450 2.1GHz or AthlonX2 6000 3GHz?

MrFoxer

07-22-08, 10:35 AM

I've read through much of this forum and I'm still confused.

I know the feeling well:)
Is there a way to get video and audio from the pc to the avr with one hdmi cable?
Yes. I'm going to put myself half a step above you as I know the answer to this question is "yes", but we'll both have to wait for the experts to chime in and fill in details. There are three potential one HDMI cable solutions:

1) a motherboard integrated HDMI,
2) an HDMI sound card that muxes the audio with video from your graphics card, and
3) a graphics card that does both video and audio and sends it out via HDMI.

I'm pretty sure option 1 is available now, but haven't figured out details. I'm positive option 2 will do the job, but I'm not sure of availability yet, and I'm clueless on option 3.

I'm sorry I'm thick, but each time I read about another card here and look it up, the specs never come right out and say this. HDMI compatible or adapter are phrases they use. I'm not to keen on spending a few hundred dollars to get almost there.
I'm not totally sure what solution is good for you, but I'm running a single DVI-HDMI for video and a very inexpensive coaxial SPDIF cable from my DTS-Connect motherboard for sound.

I should probably point you to this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13872683#post13872683)post for more info. It has the three options discussed above and some details on pro/con.

archibael

07-22-08, 11:50 AM

monster_man

07-22-08, 11:57 AM

I know the feeling well:)

Yes. I'm going to put myself half a step above you as I know the answer to this question is "yes", but we'll both have to wait for the experts to chime in and fill in details. There are three potential one HDMI cable solutions. 1) a motherboard integrated HDMI, 2) an HDMI sound card that muxes the audio with video from your graphics card and 3) a graphics card that does both video and audio and sends it out via HDMI. I'm pretty sure option 1 is available now, but haven't figured out details. I'm positive option 2 will do the job, but I'm not sure of availability yet, and I'm clueless on option 3.

I'm not totally sure what solution is good for you, but I'm running a single DVI-HDMI for video and a very inexpensive coaxial SPDIF cable from my DTS-Connect motherboard for sound.

I should probably point you to this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13872683#post13872683)post for more info. It has the three options discussed above and some details on pro/con.

Thanks for responding and especially thank you for giving me some sort of redemption.:D

I've looked at the motherboard option, but whenever I read the specs I'm not totally convinced that the HDMI will output both audio and video. Part of my doubt rises from the reviews posted about the different motherboards by owners on the newegg website. It seems that no one has ever outright said that "Yes, hdmi on this mb outputs both audio and video." Until I read that somewhere I am hesitant to purchase something that may lead to future purchases just to get what I originally wanted. I'm pretty confident that I can eventually get any feature going after trial and error, but only if it is featured. I take it with a grain a salt whenever a review says it doesn't work. If someone does get it to work then I know its possible.

As far as option 2, the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 seems to be a solution. I'm guessing that any MB with this Asus card and a video card will do the trick. I can't seem to find this card yet, but will keep an eye for it.

I guess I was asking for too much as far as option 3. That is what would be ideal and may be possible with some MB if not a card itself.

I know I can do what you have done and thanks for example, but I was thinking down the road and the possibility to playback some lossless audio over hdmi. Again, maybe I'm wanting too much so early in this shift in technology.

I should be thankful that it seems both of these hobbies of mine, computers and home theater, are merging. Somehow work brewing and drinking beer into this and I'll never have to leave the house!

monster_man

07-22-08, 12:09 PM

1) is there on some Intel graphics G33 boards, on G35 HDMI boards, and the new G45 series. I think it's also there on the Nvidia 8200 or 8400...? I'm forgetting the details.

2) is on its way but not here yet

3) I believe the latest ATI 48xx series of cards can do this.

2) will run bitstream (aka undecoded TrueHD and DTS HD MA), the other solutions will only send decoded LPCM.

Thank-you. I have spent too much time looking through Asus MBs. I'm a creature of habit. The first Intel MB seems to fit the bill in their description. The DG45FC may be on my short list.

http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DG45FC/DG45FC-overview.htm

I'll have to research this, as I'm not familiar with the mini-itx form factor and will have to rethink some of the cases I've been eyeballing.

As far as the ATI 4800 series, the pictures on the website look like DVI connections. Are the adapters, DVI to HDMI, the same as if it were just HDMI?

One last thing, I'd prefer bitstreamed uncoded audio to let my avr handle the format.

Thanks again:)

jmasterman

07-22-08, 12:27 PM

MrFoxer

07-22-08, 12:53 PM

Thanks for responding and especially thank you for giving me some sort of redemption.:D

I jumped in here a few days ago to try to get up to speed on HDMI and sound. I made it a few steps forward with the help of renethx and others, but I should probably thank you, as thinking about your question helped me organize what I'd learned, and sent me back to fill in some gaps. I think archibael's short post was a really helpful summary of where things are now.

I've looked at the motherboard option, but whenever I read the specs I'm not totally convinced that the HDMI will output both audio and video. Part of my doubt rises from the reviews posted about the different motherboards by owners on the newegg website. It seems that no one has ever outright said that "Yes, hdmi on this mb outputs both audio and video." Until I read that somewhere I am hesitant to purchase something that may lead to future purchases just to get what I originally wanted.

Yes, a lot of posts focus on a detail, but when you're not up to speed, the underlying assumptions are not immediately apparent and you're left in the dark.

As far as option 2, the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 seems to be a solution. I'm guessing that any MB with this Asus card and a video card will do the trick. I can't seem to find this card yet, but will keep an eye for it.

And that option seems to be the only one available for bitstreaming full res audio, and even that seems iffy due to the need for players to support PAP. I'm not sure why the MB solution won't do it. Presumably it's a driver issue and lack of PAP. Whether that might change over time, i.e., whether a future driver might later allow bitstreamed full res audio from a MB isn't clear either.

Finally, I'm still unclear about whether PowerDVD (which I understand currently downconverts audio even for unprotected content) might stop doing that in version 8.5. Then would all of the 3 options permit bitstreaming after AACS protection was removed with AnyDVD? (No wonder I'm still confused -it's like trying to climb a waterfall as the torrent of data, details and change tries to push me down to the bottom again:D

archibael

07-22-08, 12:58 PM

As far as the ATI 4800 series, the pictures on the website look like DVI connections. Are the adapters, DVI to HDMI, the same as if it were just HDMI?

One last thing, I'd prefer bitstreamed uncoded audio to let my avr handle the format.

Thanks again:)

The ATI cards have an included DVI-HDMI adapter (not a standard one) which has an internal circuit that tells the card to send sound because the output is HDMI.

AbMagFab

07-22-08, 01:13 PM

I've read through much of this forum and I'm still confused. Is there a way to get video and audio from the pc to the avr with one hdmi cable?

Intel G35 mobo (now)
Intel G45 mobo (soon)
nVidia 8200/8300 AMD mobo (now)
Radeon 4850/4870 gfx card
nVidia 9200/9300 Intel mobo (soon)

All support full HD audio and HD video over one HDMI cable.

There are also a couple of pass-through HDMI audio cards coming out at some point that let you use any gfx card you want.

RichTJ99

07-22-08, 11:49 PM

Hi,

I think I am revamping my goals.

I would like to:

Play light gaming (I have a Xbox 360 so probably no gaming)
Email
Web Browsing
DVD movies (probably regular DVDS with BlueRay in the future).
Run Vista Ultimate on the PC

E7200 Processor
2 gigs 800 ram
ASUS P5K-VM (anything better thats a G35)?
Fusion 430
XFX PVT84JUSD4 GeForce 8600 GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

In terms of noise, I will use the stock processor fan (I guess its quieter), no OC'ing for me. Does this look pretty good?

I might upgrade to a ATI 4850 at some later point (if I get into this).

renethx

07-23-08, 07:57 AM

renethx

07-23-08, 07:59 AM

I don't see that option anywhere in CCC.

Do you see it?

So if I just make it playback a DVD it should just do it?

Do I need to use any special codec to playback? Does it need to do HW accelerated DVD playback in order do upscaling? (DXVA)
Maybe there is no option in CCC. You don't need a special codec. It's automatic.

renethx

07-23-08, 08:10 AM

Can you add a fan to a fanless video card? I have the XFX 8500 GT, PV-T86J-YAFG.
Yes. Check the compatibilitiy list of the fan before you buy it.

OttawaNewbie

07-23-08, 08:50 AM

Dell Canada has the Hauppage HD-PVR on sale for $199 with free shipping until tomorrow.

http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/TV_Tuners_and_Video_Editing/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A1753033

renethx

07-23-08, 09:43 AM

One last thing, I'd prefer bitstreamed uncoded audio to let my avr handle the format.Assuming "uncoded" means "undecoded", ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3/Auzentech Auzen H-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 sound cards may be the only solution for now.
Assuming "uncoded" means "undecoded", ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3/Auzentech Auzen H-Fi HomeTheater 7.1 sound cards may be the only solution.

renethx

07-23-08, 09:51 AM

Renethx,

I want to upgrade my video card to a 4850 but there are several ATI 4850 options. Do you know which is the quietest? My HTPC is currently quieter than my DirecTV HD DVR so I don't want too much noise from the fan on the card.

Will the 380 watt PS in my Antec 2480 run one? Are there any that won't fit the case?

Am I right that they will all pass audio through DVI/HDMI?

Thanks for the great info!
So far every HD 4850 card (512MB) uses the same reference card/cooler design. That means basically every card is equally quiet.

380W is enough. Every 512MB card fits NSK2480.

Yes, HD 4850 passes audio through DVI with the bundled DVI-HDMI dongle.

renethx

07-23-08, 10:01 AM

JiriB

07-23-08, 04:31 PM

gunbunnysoulja

07-23-08, 05:12 PM

quantumstate

07-23-08, 07:25 PM

For gaming, please find another forum, you violence addict. This is the AV forum.

ixion

07-23-08, 08:39 PM

Guys, I have a question about using an RF remote to control an HTPC.

I have an URC brand RF remote and this basestation:
http://www.universalremote.com/produ...l.php?model=42 (http://www.universalremote.com/product_detail.php?model=42)

The whole thing will be hidden in a cabinet.

What is the best way to get this to control an HTPC?

The basestation has mono-mini-jack serial outputs for emitters. Is there any way to connect the output to an HTPC without converting back to IR? Is there something out there that would allow the RF basestation output to be connected to a USB port or to the motherboard IR header?

renethx

07-24-08, 02:29 AM

I'm still deciding (and saving money) for my HTPC, now that my Samsung LCD screen has finally arrived. In my search I have stumbled upon a few more things I can't really seem to figure out or decide on:

1. I want to use the HTPC for HD material as well as games. I'll probably go for an ATI 4850 (Saphire I think), but I was wondering if it will fit in the Antec Fusion V2 case, as it seems to be slightly lower than other cases.

2. renethx recommended a E8400 as the processor earlier in this thread (when compared with a quad core), but I noticed the price of the E8500 is only about 15 euro's more than the E8400. Worth the extra bucks, or just overclock or leave the 0.16 GHz?

3. As I will be going for an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, I will need a socket 775 mobo, which has to have a mATX form factor. This somewhat limits the available motherboards. I'm wondering which one would be best, the G33, G35 or G45 chipset? And which manufacturer or model would be best for my situation (HD video and gaming)?

If anyone can help me answer any of these questions, I would be very much obliged... :)

1. HD 4850 fits in Fusion 430.

2. Either one is OK.

3. As you don't use onboard video, either of G33, G35, G45 is fine. It looks like most G45 mATX mbs are not available in Q3 and there is no particular reason to wait for G45. Go for ASUS P5K-VM (G33; 1 x PCIe x1 slot, 4 SATA ports) or P5E-VM HDMI (G35; 2 x PCIe x2 slot, 6 SATA ports, RAID) and you won't regret.

I don't recommend an Intel brand motherboard because it lacks advanced BIOS settings such as adjustment for FSB frequency, CPU multiplier, CPU/NB/FSB voltage and even DRAM voltage, all of which are basic IMO.

Smitty2k1

07-24-08, 03:21 PM

For gaming, please find another forum, you violence addict. This is the AV forum.

I'm not sure if you are joking or not but his question is very legit. This is the HTPC forum and gaming is one aspect of HTPC.

AbMagFab

07-24-08, 03:50 PM

1. C'mon over to this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14351931), where we are eagerly anticipating the newest Intel mobo. It eliminates the need for a video card.

2. I would spring for the E8500 if I were you.

The G35 already does this, just no PAP (and a couple other issues).

The G45 should be nicer when it comes out, whenever that eventually is.

JiriB

07-24-08, 05:20 PM

haha, gaming isn't just violence you know..

I very much enjoy racing games or adventure games to be honest :)

And thanks for the info renethx, I guess I'll go for the G35 one then..

I just imagined what a disaster my HTPC would have been if I hadn't found this thread... usefulness+++ :cool:

quantumstate

07-24-08, 08:36 PM

I'm not sure if you are joking or not but his question is very legit. This is the HTPC forum and gaming is one aspect of HTPC.
No it does not encompass HTPC. And I am not joking

This "gaming" is social conditioning which dulls normal aversion to adverse events. It teaches violence as a legitimate response, and is now creating a massive underclass, which normal people must then oppose and oppress.

See it as you like kid, LOL!

PaulKohler

07-24-08, 08:49 PM

I guess "home theater" imposes false realities whereby participant's normal rationale thought processes are compromised.....

RichTJ99

07-24-08, 08:55 PM

Davinleeds

07-24-08, 08:59 PM

There is a difference with htpc and "htpc" gaming. I see it in my own household. Too much focus/attention/time spent NOT paying attention to daily life, will be detrimental. But that's a political thread.

RichTJ99

07-24-08, 09:49 PM

renethx

07-24-08, 10:37 PM

When comparing that Nvidia 8600 GT, is it comparable to the ATI 3870? I am a little more partal to ATI boards (for no reason other than I own more ATI cards) but they are both in the same price range.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125086&CMP=AFC-C8Junction
The competing product of GeForce 8600 GT is Radeon HD 3650 (in both price and performance).

- Radeon HD 3870: $100 (after rebate)
- Radeon HD 3650: $63 (ASUS SILENT; after rebate)
- GeForce 8600 GT: $63 (XFX; after rebate)

You will see difference between 3870 and 3650/8600 in post-processing and 3D performance.

renethx

07-24-08, 10:38 PM

How quiet is the CPU Cooler: Scythe NINJA MINI? I ask because I just plugged my old Socket 478 stock intel 3.2ghz setup in & that sucker is loud!

To loud to leave on 24/7 like I would like to. Is the Scythe so quiet you wouldnt notice it?
The fan bundled with NINJA MINI is very quiet. You even don't need the fan if you use NINJA MINI in Fusion 430/NSK2480.

RichTJ99

07-24-08, 10:59 PM

The fan bundled with NINJA MINI is very quiet. You even don't need the fan if you use NINJA MINI in Fusion 430/NSK2480.

I noticed it is socket 478 compatible, so I just ordered it to see how it will sound with my current setup - which seems to run XP MCE pretty smoothly.

Thanks!

RichTJ99

07-24-08, 11:20 PM

xj-boonie

07-25-08, 12:05 AM

No it does not encompass HTPC. And I am not joking

This "gaming" is social conditioning which dulls normal aversion to adverse events. It teaches violence as a legitimate response, and is now creating a massive underclass, which normal people must then oppose and oppress.

See it as you like kid, LOL!

I think your are wrong, on both points. 1) several people use their HTPC as MAME boxes, in addition to other things (music, pictures, etc), and who wouldn't want to game on a big screen with 5.1 or 7.1 sound? and 2) your stating your opinion, which is fine, but don't present it as fact. It's like saying playing D&D teaches you how to cast spells.

renethx

07-25-08, 01:10 AM

OK, so here is another question. I just turned on my current system (P4C-800 Asus Canterwood board, midtower case on its side, P3.2ghz P4) on without a CPU fan turned on (AKA Mini Ninja with no fan on) and its still way to loud.

It could be the case & other items (not exactly soundproofed).

I am going to order the Antec Fusion 430 you mentioned as my HTPC case.

This might be a huge waste of money but... I think i want to try This DDR400 Mobo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138262). Its 70 bucks shipped & probably a waste but considering I wanted that CPU fan & that case, it was either 70 for the mobo to work for the parts I have or a new Video, Mobo, Ram, processor running $375 (with a few rebates). I figured gambling 70 vs a definate 375 wasnt too bad.

Buying an AGP mb is not a good idea (then you will need a modern AGP card). You can use CPU (Pentium 4 630 LGA775) and RAM (DDR2-533 2 x 512MB) from Dell Dimension E510. So what you need are only

- mb (P5K-VM, $97)
- graphics card (XFX 8600 GT, $67)

If you want to save money, go with

- GIGABYTE GA-G31M-S2L (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128078), $60
- ASUS EN8600GT OC GEAR/HTDP/256M (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121095), $45 after rebate

Basically there is no performance difference between G31 and G33.

Lostclusters

07-25-08, 01:25 AM

renethx

07-25-08, 01:33 AM

Is the only difference between the ATI 3870 and 4870 the sound capability of the 4870? Or does the 4870 perform better on the video as well?
See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14229198#post14229198).

gunbunnysoulja

07-25-08, 02:04 PM

I think your are wrong, on both points. 1) several people use their HTPC as MAME boxes, in addition to other things (music, pictures, etc), and who wouldn't want to game on a big screen with 5.1 or 7.1 sound? and 2) your stating your opinion, which is fine, but don't present it as fact. It's like saying playing D&D teaches you how to cast spells.

I LOVE MAME!

I have backup's of all my games saved to my HTPC, so I use emulation/roms for Atari 2600, Atari Jaguar, Game Boy Advance, MAME, MESS (classic systems like IntelliVision and ColecoVision), Neo Geo, NES, N64, Nintendo DS, Nintendo Game Cube, Panasonic 3DO, Sega Dreamcast, Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, Sony PlayStation, Sony PlayStation 2, Sony PSP, Super Nintendo, Turbo Grafx 16, Virtual Boy, and XBox.

Oh, and of course FRETS ON FIRE!

One System to Rule them All. The HTPC.

The downside is, for emulation to be legal, you have to actually own the games/systems...

Luckily for me, I have probably the largest game collection on AVS.

...and my photobucket link shows it... All Mint in Box condition as well :)

Smitty2k1

07-25-08, 02:39 PM

For gaming, please find another forum, you violence addict. This is the AV forum.

No it does not encompass HTPC. And I am not joking

This "gaming" is social conditioning which dulls normal aversion to adverse events. It teaches violence as a legitimate response, and is now creating a massive underclass, which normal people must then oppose and oppress.

See it as you like kid, LOL!

Gaming is most definitely on the top 5 list of what users do with their HTPC besides browse the web, play their media, and watch and record TV. If you think gaming is not a part of the HTPC then you are very misinformed. Also you should do some more research, videogames are not centered around, nor do they promote violence. If there is violence in a videogame you should be happy, people can get their kicks killing people in a virtual world as opposed to the real world. I grew up with videogames and I turned out alright, I paid for and graduated from a Big 10 college with an engineering degree and I have no criminal record.

Second of all, you seem to have a very negative opinion of videogames. Videogames are just like any other form of entertainment such as reading, watching movies, or watching TV. If you don't think there is violence in books, television, movies, or even music you are very wrong. This underclass you talk about, please expand on what you mean. Am I to believe that people who play videogames are inferior to those who do not? That is such a biased statement it blows my mind.

Who are you to come in here and tell someone that they are not allowed to discuss videogames in relation to their PC? Who are you to take a higher ground because you do not play videogames? Who are you to call a stranger a violence addict because they play videogames?

I might be a "kid" by your standards, and I might not write as well as you do, but man, you have got some serious personal issues you should deal with before posting on online forums.

Please get out of this thread and this part of AVS if you have nothing positive to contribute.

Bseen

07-25-08, 02:49 PM

Hello everyone,
Can someone point me to the latest guide?
Thanks

gunbunnysoulja

07-25-08, 02:52 PM

Another point I'd like to make, without getting further off track from this great thread, is Flight Simulation falls under the category of gaming, as I'm sure many here use their HTPC's for Simulation...

I certainly wouldn't want to spend thousands of dollars crashing airplanes when I could practice on my Flight Simulator via my HTPC.

While many games do have violence (as well as TV, Movies, Books, and, oh... the Iraq War I fought in back in 03 when the ground war started), it is merely a form of entertainment that people are entitled to, without criticism.

I guess I don't understand being against one form of entertainment that is simply a story that allows interaction (Video Game), opposed to a story that doesn't (Movie).

...But everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views, but there is no need to critisize.

I'm not sure where you got these statistics of creating a massive underclass... And also, people who play video games aren't normal? The social norm in this day in age is that video games are socially accepted.

So technically, "we" are the norm.

gunbunnysoulja

07-25-08, 02:52 PM

Hello everyone,
Can someone point me to the latest guide?
Thanks

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85

quantumstate

07-25-08, 03:23 PM

Gaming is most definitely on the top 5 list of what users do with their HTPC
...
Also you should do some more research, videogames are not centered around, nor do they promote violence.
What a ridiculous assertion, to claim that Grand Theft Auto, Crysis, Call of Duty, etc are not centered around nor promote violence. Most of us can not understand how you could possibly believe that. I notice that only two of you trogs are supporting this view, albeit quite noisily, as expected.

This underclass you talk about, please expand on what you mean. Am I to believe that people who play videogames are inferior to those who do not? That is such a biased statement it blows my mind.

Not going to explain it, as we obviously come from different cultures, and this isn't the place anyway. I am saying that you are voluntarily making yourself a new underclass, which the rest of us will then happily marginalize.

gunbunnysoulja

07-25-08, 03:31 PM

What a ridiculous assertion, to claim that ALL video games and video gamers are centered around and promote violence. Most of US can not understand how YOU could possibly believe that.

You called me a violence addict because of a video game inquiry?

I am glad we come from "different cultures".

I would NEVER want to be so closeminded, judgemental, and ignorant.

You should realize there are thousands of video games which do not have or promote violence, and that this is not some "new underclass of gamers". Video Games have been around since the 70's.

You will find alot more violence on the evening news than you will in a game of PONG.

It is the parents responsibility to decide what games their kids play. I'm not saying to let 10 year olds play Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto. But the same responsibility that falls under the rating system for movies applies to games.

Don't boycott movies because of Natural Born Killers or Pulp Fiction. So don't boycott Video Games because of Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.

Others aren't being rude by disrupting this thread like I have, but I can assure you the majority agree's with me. So I am sure I am not the only "trog" supporting this view.

renethx, I apologize for disrupting your thread, and I will end my comments on this subject now.

Smitty2k1

07-25-08, 04:39 PM

I couldn't have responded better gunbunnysoulja. Thank you. That is all.

xboy360

07-25-08, 05:10 PM

Maybe there is no option in CCC. You don't need a special codec. It's automatic.

So does that mean it will upscale all content or only things that are hardware accelerated playback? ie only MPEG2, VC1, H264?

Or will DIVX videos also benefit?

tsteves

07-25-08, 06:24 PM

It may be a decade before the data is really in on some of the new violent gaming and it's psychological effects, so it's not really worth arguing about now. Since many people do use htpc's for gaming on their home theaters, it is certainly on topic whether or not it is a bad thing for society.

So, is an 8300 mb with IGP and phenom 9550 good enough for quality deinterlacing?

renethx

07-25-08, 06:42 PM

So does that mean it will upscale all content or only things that are hardware accelerated playback? ie only MPEG2, VC1, H264?

Or will DIVX videos also benefit?
I have been away from HD 4850. HA and post-processing are done in different places (UVD, stream processors). So perhaps upscaling has nothing to do with HA. Need to test.

renethx

07-25-08, 06:45 PM

So, is an 8300 mb with IGP and phenom 9550 good enough for quality deinterlacing?
No. It looks like the formula "IGP+Phenom=good deinterlacing" applies only to the AMD chipsets. I know some other review sites got different results from mine ...

Pagali

07-25-08, 07:31 PM

tsteves

07-25-08, 08:08 PM

renethx

07-25-08, 08:22 PM

Back in December I put together my HTPC based on the Mid-range ATX configuration in this wonderful guide. At that time, the Samsung Spinpoint hard drives seemed to be preferred, and almost every configuration suggested EITHER an ATI Radeon OR a GeForce graphics card. I've been very happy with two Samsung drives and the ATI 2600XT graphics.

Now a relative wants me to build a system for her use, and I see that Western Digital drives are now listed in almost every configuration, and only Geforce graphics cards are recommended. Is there a reason for these changes that I've missed over the last few months? I've continued to read the thread, but could have missed something. Searching the thread didn't bring up any answer to my question either.

Thanks again, Renethx, for this invaluable guide!
Lately I saw lots (actually a dozen or so) of negative user reviews on Samsung HD501LJ (very high failure rate). It's far from reliable statistical one, but I chose WD for safety.

The latest recommendations are page 85 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85). GeForce vs. Radeon HD partly depends on each user's environment. I am using several cards of both brands and they are equally good (with several minor glitches).

renethx

07-25-08, 08:44 PM

renethx
Thanks. What is the minimum requirement for high quality deinterlacing with amd mb with on board graphics and cpu at this point, or do we still have to go with a separate gpu?
If I have to go with one of the upcoming sound cards for the audio benefits the overall cost is now too high. May as well get another ps3 or wait 6 months?
If you go with IGP, then 780G+Phenom X3/X4 is right now the best for deinterlacing.

If you also consider audio (multichannel LPCM), then Intel G45 could be the best choice. We have to see the actual chipset yet, however (a rumor is that G45 is not available in large quantities during Q3).

AMD 790GX chipset is released soon (July 31?). It is rumored that it supports multichannel LPCM. If this is true, then 790GX+Phenom may be your solution.

Pagali

07-25-08, 09:05 PM

Lately I saw lots (actually a dozen or so) of negative user reviews on Samsung HD501LJ (very high failure rate). It's far from reliable statistical one, but I chose WD for safety.

Ah, that explains it! Good to know.

The latest recommendations are page 85 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85). GeForce vs. Radeon HD partly depends on each user's environment. I am using several cards of both brands and they are equally good (with several minor glitches).

And that must be one of the posts I missed! Good to have the latest, thanks again so much.

xj-boonie

07-25-08, 09:19 PM

If you go with IGP, then 780G+Phenom X3/X4 is right now the best for deinterlacing.

If you also consider audio (multichannel LPCM), then Intel G45 could be the best choice. We have to see the actual chipset yet, however (a rumor is that G45 is not available in large quantities during Q3).

AMD 790GX chipset is released soon (July 31?). It is rumored that it supports multichannel LPCM. If this is true, then 790GX+Phenom may be your solution.

Where does the 8200 fit into this?

Kidsmoke

07-26-08, 02:36 AM

What a ridiculous assertion, to claim that Grand Theft Auto, Crysis, Call of Duty, etc are not centered around nor promote violence. Most of us can not understand how you could possibly believe that. I notice that only two of you trogs are supporting this view, albeit quite noisily, as expected.

Not going to explain it, as we obviously come from different cultures, and this isn't the place anyway. I am saying that you are voluntarily making yourself a new underclass, which the rest of us will then happily marginalize.

Haven't laughed this hard in years. Thanks.

renethx

07-26-08, 03:46 AM

Where does the 8200 fit into this?
8200/8300 is weak in deinterlacing.

sloth0815

07-27-08, 03:33 PM

Hi there, I have been following this amazing thread for months now and finally decided that I need a HTPC now. I will only need it to watch DVDs, 720p, 1080p mkv files and later maybe BluRay so internal graphics is enough. I also don't need the new audio formats. I am not sure about post-processing for DVDs but from what I have read even the integrated graphics do quite a good job. Is that correct?
Although I belive the Antec Fusion is a great case I don't like its design. The Lian-Li PC-C36 looks great and hopefully it is available soon. Or would you have any objections to that?
My build so far:

Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H 780G
Phenom 8450
2 x 1 GB DDR2RAM A-DATA Vitesta Extreme Edition PC800 CL4
1 TB WD Caviar Green WD10EACS SATA2 7200rpm 16MB
Lian-Li PC-C36 (includes 300 W PSU)

The system should be really quiet and cool. What kind of CPU cooler would you suggest for this case?
Thanks for this thread and your suggestions.

Jonas

RichTJ99

07-27-08, 07:17 PM

Renethx, I had two questions for you:

1. Is there a 8600 Nvidia (or ATI comparable) that has no active fan? I think I would like to have the CPU passive (thanks to the mini Ninja) as well as the video be passive cooled (no fan). Or is there one of them thats quieter than all the others?

Right now I am listening to my older 478 fan spinning around (its way to loud) & I dont want to repeat this for the other parts I am ordering.

2. My 24/7 PC thats on needs to handle the line out to the reciever (for DVD's). EDIT: It needs to be on 24/7 for the home automation vocal annoucements.

LCD TV has the Audio Output, going into the Line In of the PC. The PC has a Y splitter on the Line Out, one Line Out goes to the Sony Reciever Input (TV Input), the other Line out from the PC goes into the HDMI 2 (DVI + DVI Audio Input).

The problem is, if I am watching TV, the audio needs to be on very loud (on the reciever) just to hear it. If something happens on the PC (Home Automation annoucement), its blasting as the PC volume is at 100% & the line in (on the XP machine) is at 20% (any louder it makes a screetching noise).

If i lower the volume on the PC, I can turn the line in up, but the reciever still cant play it loud enough (as the signal is too low).

In the end, the PC handling the splitting of the inputs isnt working out as well as I would hope.

Any suggestions?

HT Slider

07-27-08, 07:33 PM

Is the only difference between the ATI 3870 and 4870 the sound capability of the 4870? Or does the 4870 perform better on the video as well?

Edit - NVM - I looked them up and the 4870 is way better. Tnx anyway.

Could you provide some review links (in addition to the details renethx provided).

From what renethx posted it definitely looked better, but my 3870 (and even my old 2600XT) provid the ability to use and adjust fleshtone correction, color vibrance, denoise, as well as edge enhancement. Personally I don't use fleshtone nor color vibrance, but denoise and edge enhancement work quite well if conservative settings are used. Note I am running Vista so I don't know if these features are Vista only with the 3870.

I'm interested in knowing especially if deinterlacing has been improved with the 4800 series of cards vs the 3870.

BTW, as far as gaming on an HTPC we should all keep an open mind to this. HTPCs are after all entertainment devices and many individuals, myself included, do game on our HTPC (my preference is to play simulation racing games on our 51" HDTV and high end surround system; combined with the Logitech MOMO steering wheel - lots of fun (IMO anyway)). Vista Media Center can even launch games directly from Media Center with only the remote control. We simply plug in our XBox 360 USB game controller or steering wheel (these came with very long USB cables) and play away. No keyboard or mouse required and this really provides a seamless HTPC gaming experience.

quantumstate

07-27-08, 08:47 PM

Mod's edit: Off-topic posts removed. Please stay on topic.

RichTJ99

07-27-08, 08:58 PM

Will any of these fit in that Antec 430 case?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Property&Subcategory=48&Description=&Type=&N=2010380048&srchInDesc=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&OEMMark=0&PropertyCodeValue=679%3A36592&PropertyCodeValue=679%3A28607&PropertyCodeValue=679%3A29475&PropertyCodeValue=684%3A9614&PropertyCodeValue=2953%3A18921

They are fanless (silent).

renethx

07-28-08, 01:45 AM

Hi there, I have been following this amazing thread for months now and finally decided that I need a HTPC now. I will only need it to watch DVDs, 720p, 1080p mkv files and later maybe BluRay so internal graphics is enough. I also don't need the new audio formats. I am not sure about post-processing for DVDs but from what I have read even the integrated graphics do quite a good job. Is that correct?
Although I belive the Antec Fusion is a great case I don't like its design. The Lian-Li PC-C36 looks great and hopefully it is available soon. Or would you have any objections to that?
My build so far:

Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H 780G
Phenom 8450
2 x 1 GB DDR2RAM A-DATA Vitesta Extreme Edition PC800 CL4
1 TB WD Caviar Green WD10EACS SATA2 7200rpm 16MB
Lian-Li PC-C36 (includes 300 W PSU)

The system should be really quiet and cool. What kind of CPU cooler would you suggest for this case?
Post-processing is very good with Phenom and your choice is right. :) Find a good CPU cooler is the hardest part. The case height is only 94 mm.

- Zalman CNPS8700 LED (H67 mm) is perhaps barely OK.
- SilverStone NT07-AM2 (H36.5 mm) is designed for 65W, but perhaps OK for 8450.
- Dynatron A48G: too loud unless you change the fan.

renethx

07-28-08, 01:50 AM

renethx

07-28-08, 02:08 AM

sloth0815

07-28-08, 05:39 AM

renethx

07-28-08, 06:27 AM

Thanks for that reply, renethx! I don't necessarily need post processing would you have a suggestion for a processor/mb combination that has very low power consumption/heat development and is still good enough for BluRay, 1080p mkv? How much does the 780G/Phenom 8450 combination consume?
Is it possible to boot the system via a remote control or what would I need for that?
Athlon X2 4850e is recommended. Power consumption of the total system consisting of CPU, mb, two sticks of memory, a HDD and a BD drive in Antec NSK2480 with two 120mm fans:

- Athlon X2 4850e: 46W at idle, 80W at BD playback
- Phenom X3 4850: 72W at idle, 94W at BD playback

To be able to boot via a remote, you will need a built-in IR receiver (as with Antec Fusion 430). But you can still wake up the system from S3 standby via a remote.

RichTJ99

07-28-08, 08:43 AM

Renethx,

With money not being an issue for the graphics (out of these two cards):

Giga 8600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125070)

ASUS EN8600GT SILENT/HTDP/512M (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121098)

Which will fit & run better/cooler in the 430(or are those two items not compatible)?

My goal being quiet, cool (as much as possible), web/email/dvd with a slight possiblity of gaming (not likely though)

Thanks,
Rich

Skylinestar

07-28-08, 09:38 AM

i'm planning to build an HTPC.
after reading many articles about PCM and bitstream, i'm still confused about it.
i have a few MKV files with AAC 5.1 audio. in a conventional typical setup, AC3filter can output the audio in AC3 format, send the signal through SPDIF, and let the AVR decode the audio happily.
what if i'm using a motherboard that features LPCM? is the signal flow the same, but through HDMI port? or;
does the pc decode the AAC 5.1 audio, sending the audio stream, through HDMI, to the AVR, and let the AVR amplify the audio?
do i need a special AVR that can support LPCM? or just a typical AVR with HDMI?

sloth0815

07-28-08, 10:01 AM

Athlon X2 4850e is recommended. Power consumption of the total system consisting of CPU, mb, two sticks of memory, a HDD and a BD drive in Antec NSK2480 with two 120mm fans:

- Athlon X2 4850e: 46W at idle, 80W at BD playback
- Phenom X3 4850: 72W at idle, 94W at BD playback

So I guess I'll go with the Athlon. Is the Gigabyte still the recommended mainboard for HD3200 since there are now several mATX boards available? Would the Scythe Shuriken fit on the board?

renethx

07-28-08, 10:13 AM

renethx

07-28-08, 10:45 AM

renethx

07-28-08, 11:15 AM

Is the Gigabyte still the recommended mainboard for HD3200 since there are now several mATX boards available? Would the Scythe Shuriken fit on the board?
Yes.

Yes, Shuriken fits the board.

HT Slider

07-28-08, 01:27 PM

Post-processing is very good with Phenom and your choice is right. :) Find a good CPU cooler is the hardest part. The case height is only 94 mm.

- Zalman CNPS8700 LED (H67 mm) is perhaps barely OK.
- SilverStone NT07-AM2 (H36.5 mm) is designed for 65W, but perhaps OK for 8450.
- Dynatron A48G: too loud unless you change the fan.

I tried some of the lower profile CPU coolers, including the 8700 and found them relatively loud (the 8700 wasn't terrible, but I could hear it easily).

I then tried a ThermalRight Ultra 120 combined with an expensive 120mm Noctua fan, but discovered I couldn't install the cover.... (it was absolutely silent though and kept the CPU very cool)

Eventually I discovered that the Zalman 9500 AT (Intel PWM) was a perfect fit. I did have to raise the cover by about 1mm to make sure it didn't resonate on the cooler, but even with the Intel Q6600, the CPU cooler is very quiet.

The only time I can hear the cooler is when all 4 cores are running at 100% for extended periods of time. Even then, if the room temperature is in the 70°F range or less I can hardly hear it since upgrading to the HIS 3870 IceQ video card (that blows heat directly outside the case and has been totally silent). With the ATI 2600XT and heat staying inside the case, the Zalman 9500AT was audible when the CPU was really being taxed though. These new IceQ coolers work very well and are very quiet (some of the older ones had slightly out of balance fans).

One significant improvement to our HTPC's noise was when I installed an expensive Noctua 80mm case fan (http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=9&lng=en). It is so quiet (expecially as a function of the amount of air it flows) that I found I can crank the speed up quite a bit (using a fanmate; even at full speed it is very quiet) and this cools the case well enough that the louder fans slow right down. I highly recommend Noctua fans. They do cost quite a bit, but blow incredibly well and are incredibly quiet.

The loudest parts by far in my main HTPC are the Seagate hard drives.

sloth0815

07-28-08, 01:48 PM

I tried some of the lower profile CPU coolers, including the 8700 and found them relatively loud (the 8700 wasn't terrible, but I could hear it easily).

Did you try the Shuriken? I have read it is supposed to be very quiet. The WD Caviar Green should be quiet but since the case I am interested in (Lian-Li PC-C36) is not out yet I am a bit worried about the PSU that comes with it but I could still exchange it later.
Does anybody here add WiFi to their HTPCs?

Thanks,
Jonas

Skylinestar

07-29-08, 10:07 AM

AAC is decoded into LPCM by an AAC decoder, which is then sent to HDMI, then to AVR (preamp, amp), to speaker.

Any AVR supporting HDMI (not HDMI pass-through) can do this.

as far as i know, all AVRs with HDMI have the capability of HDMI pass-through.
i'm looking for a budget AVR, targetting the yamaha RX-V363. it can accept this LPCM signal from the pc's HDMI and deliver the sound to the speakers, isn't it?

gunbunnysoulja

07-29-08, 10:12 AM

as far as i know, all AVRs with HDMI have the capability of HDMI pass-through.
i'm looking for a budget AVR, targetting the yamaha RX-V363. it can accept this LPCM signal from the pc's HDMI and deliver the sound to the speakers, isn't it?

No, the av receiver needs a repeater, not switcher/pass through.

Without repeater, you will not get MPCM audio. The receiver needs to be able to accept MPCM.

You need to step up to the 463 for this.

Skylinestar

07-29-08, 11:32 AM

No, the av receiver needs a repeater, not switcher/pass through.

Without repeater, you will not get MPCM audio. The receiver needs to be able to accept MPCM.

You need to step up to the 463 for this.

ok. now i understand.
quote from yamaha 463 brochure:
HD Audio LPCM 5.1-channel reception (up to 96kHz)
any alternative from onkyo or denon that support multi channel LPCM at a low price?
does multi channel LPCM work for pc games?

gunbunnysoulja

07-29-08, 11:55 AM

ok. now i understand.
quote from yamaha 463 brochure:

any alternative from onkyo or denon that support multi channel LPCM at a low price?
does multi channel LPCM work for pc games?

My #1 inexpensive recommendation always goes to the Marantz 4001 found here (http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR4001/MARANTZ/SR4001-80w-x-7ch-Surround-Receiver-w/HDMI/1.html).

If you want new, it's $50 more.

Further recommendations can be found over in the Amps, Receivers and Processors section.

tyfoon

07-29-08, 02:59 PM

I have just upgraded from a HDMI 1.1 TV (a philips 37PF9731) to a HDMI 1.3 TV (Philips 42PFL9703) and with this change my audio part of my HDMI from my HTPC is not working anymore. (Spdif to receiver still working OK, checked cable, checked port etc.)

My current setup is a P5B-E Plus MB with a MSI 7600GT HDMI graphic card. Audio is passthrough via a coaxil SPDIF connector to the videocard. I also have the MB Toslink connector conneced to my DTS/DD receiver.

I have tested all permutations to find the issue but the only reason I can think os why this suddenly stopped working is propaly related to the fact the the new TV has HDMI 1.3 and/or is more critical on the audio part of the HDMI signal.

Does this make sence? Any suggestions in how I can solve this problem e.g. is changing my somehwat outdated videocard with e.g. a 4850 a solution that will solve the problem?

renethx

07-30-08, 02:28 AM

tyfoon

07-30-08, 03:29 AM

@renethx; already tried this (by the way configuraion is still working on the original TV I was using) an it looks like a hardware/compatibility problem. The SPDIF connected to the receiver directly also works.

Do you know if there was a change in how the audio was 'injected' into the HDMI stream bij the first generation HDMI graphics card (like the one I have now MSI VGA GeForce NX7600GT Diamond Plus 256 MB ) versus the newer versions like a 8600GT? Or can it be that the SPDIF from the asus P5B-e Plus is not compatible with the correct HDMI standard?

I'm happy to buy new hardware, I just want to be sure it works...

renethx

07-30-08, 04:46 AM

I don't think there was a change.

tyfoon

07-30-08, 08:42 AM

I don't think there was a change.

Is there any other hardware related reason why this does not work anymore? could it be related to HDCP?

I'm really strugling with this and it is costing me heaps of time to find a solution!

renethx

07-30-08, 10:42 AM

Is there any other hardware related reason why this does not work anymore? could it be related to HDCP?

I'm really strugling with this and it is costing me heaps of time to find a solution!
HDCP matters only when you play premium contents (the player would refuse to play the content if HDCP is broken). Even if HDCP is broken, you should be able to get audio through HDMI for other tasks.

Try ASUS EN8400GS SILENT/HTP/512M GeForce 8400 GS card (~$30 after rebate). It's cheap and perfect for playing back BD movies. The card has an S/PDIF connector and you can use a generic DVI-HDMI dongle to get S/PDIF through HDMI. I used the card for a while and it worked fine.

romanTotale

07-30-08, 02:41 PM

renethx

07-30-08, 03:52 PM

First, thanks to all for the info in this thread.

I'm hoping to build a cheap and low power media server to stream to my ps3. I will keep it in a closet, and since hd pvr isn't really available now (right??), I probably won't worry about pvr at this point - so I'd like to just serve files. I don't need 14 TB of space to start, so I'd like to start small but keep expansion options open. So, based on the server build recommend in thread 2524, I was thinking of starting with the following:

Cooler Master Centurion 590 RC-590-KKN1-GP
ASUS M3N78 PRO AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8300
CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W
A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800
AMD Athlon X2 4050e 2.1GHz Socket AM2 45W

First - I was thinking of starting with only 3 to 5 drives and just using the mobo Raid 5 then adding the HBA and drive expansions when I need it. Is this a really bad idea? Would a pata drive (which I have) be the boot drive and the sata drives form the raid?

Second - I was thinking of using the 45w CPU above instead of the 65W Athlon 64 X2 4400+, is this also a bad idea?

Finally - I already have a 500gb Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 sata, would it be best to add identical drives, or just the same capacity drives? I don't care about noise, but I do care about power consumption

Thanks in advance for the suggestions, I've been having trouble finding recommendations for a small sized, 4-5 driver raid 5 media server online.
Using mb RAID 5 is a bad idea because it supports only up to 6 drives. Use a hardware RAID controller card from the beginning. But you'd better think about pros and cons of RAID 5. Tom's Hardware article Can Heterogeneous RAID Arrays Work? : Homogenous Vs. Heterogeneous RAID (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/HETEROGENEOUS-RAID-ARRAYS-WORK,1789.html) is interesting. There are several other choices: single drives, JBOD, unRAID (M3N78 PRO does not support it right now; go with AMD chipsets), FlexRAID.

45W CPU is no problem.

If you use a 500GB drive in a RAID array, all the other drives are limited to 500GB. That's one of the cons of RAID. You can mix drives of various size in unRAID and FlexRAID. If you buy new drives for storage, go with 1TB, in particular, Western Digital GP. As the number of drives increases, the difference of power consumption between GP and the other drives becomes large.

Maybe RAID specialists want to comment. :)

RockChok

07-30-08, 08:43 PM

I am focusing on the storage portion of the guide and thinking small. I figure with storage becoming cheaper I won't need a lot of drives. This is what I am thinking of building

Motherboad - GA-MA78GM-S2H
Memory - G.Skill 1GB DDR2 1066
Storage enclosure - Athena Power BP-SATA2131B 2 x 5.25
Case - APEVIA X-QPACK-NW-BK/420
CPU - AMD Athlon X2 4800+ 2.5GHz Brisbane
Drives(2) - Samsung Spinpoint S1 HD502lJ

Basically going for a backup solution with the ability to store pics, movies, tv shows, and music. This will feed a VMC which will then stream out up to 5 extenders not necessarily at one time though. Are there any mistakes I am making or limiting myself in some way by focusing on going small?

Thanks for any feedback

RichTJ99

07-30-08, 10:14 PM

romanTotale

07-30-08, 10:25 PM

renethx,

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. I currently have very little video data, and about 250GB of music, so I'd like to start small (and cheap) with the option to expand. I'm not intending to store any critical data on this server, so I'd just like to minimize inconvenience when a drive dies. I'd also like to keep the power consumption as low as possible so I can set it in a closet and forget it. UnRaid looks good except that I'd like to run XP or a windows server - I use TVersity (or I'll use something similar to stream to my PS3) & I probably like to add other server apps (maybe squeezecenter and tivoserver). FlexRaid looks very promising, if a bit young. Thanks again for highlighting these options.

urvi

07-31-08, 02:15 AM

I currently have a very budget HTPC but would like to start upgrading it. I want to start with a new mobo and go from there. I want to use all the current hardware i have (less ram) if possible. I have a wd raptor 150gb as the boot drive, a seagate 7200.11 750gb media drive. The GCC is a Sapphire HD3650 512 gddr2 (should be here soon). The CPU is a P4 3.2. The power supply is the one that comes with the microfly case, it a 400watt i belive. So my question is which mATX should a go with? I dont OC anything (don't have a clue how to but wouldn't mind learning), and the only game it might see would be Flight Simulator. Im going to use component to a Sony 60" but will switch it to HDMI when i get my new reciever (out of HDMI inputs). There's just so many boards out there that i can't tell which are good and which are bad. Thanks for any help guys.

renethx

07-31-08, 02:53 AM

renethx

07-31-08, 03:03 AM

Hi,

A quick question about the Fusion 430. It says it has a built in IR port. I cant seem to find it & my WMC remote doesnt work with it (when I plug in my IR USB it does). Where does the IR get its power from? My VFD is working & I figured it was all part of the same thing.
IR port itself is somewhere in VFD. As you see in the manual, you have to do three things:

- Connect the 3-pin pwer connector from VFD to the 3-pin connector from the PSU.
- Connect the USB connector from VFD to a USB connector of the mb.
- Install software.

renethx

07-31-08, 03:14 AM

RichTJ99

07-31-08, 08:11 AM

IR port itself is somewhere in VFD. As you see in the manual, you have to do three things:

- Connect the 3-pin pwer connector from VFD to the 3-pin connector from the PSU.
- Connect the USB connector from VFD to a USB connector of the mb.
- Install software.

Renethanx,

I have the VFD USB cable tied into the mobo & the VFD display works & displays information about my PC (which says to me that it is installed properly). The IR doesnt seem to work. There is nothing missing in the device manager, the 3 power pin is plugged into the power from the ATX, & the software is installed but I dont see the IR & my MCE remote isnt doing anything when I point at the unit. The IR should be on the front right?

On a side note (as this could be related) as these cables arent plugged in:

http://www.antec.com/us/support_roductInfo_FAQ.php?Qnumber=12&FAQno=24

I still dont get it, do the two wires get plugged into my Mobo, or into somewhere on the case itself? Do those wires get plugged into the VFD somewhere (if so, why didnt antec do that themselves)?

Thanks,
Rich

renethx

07-31-08, 10:18 AM

Renethanx,

I have the VFD USB cable tied into the mobo & the VFD display works & displays information about my PC (which says to me that it is installed properly). The IR doesnt seem to work. There is nothing missing in the device manager, the 3 power pin is plugged into the power from the ATX, & the software is installed but I dont see the IR & my MCE remote isnt doing anything when I point at the unit. The IR should be on the front right?

On a side note (as this could be related) as these cables arent plugged in:

http://www.antec.com/us/support_roductInfo_FAQ.php?Qnumber=12&FAQno=24

I still dont get it, do the two wires get plugged into my Mobo, or into somewhere on the case itself? Do those wires get plugged into the VFD somewhere (if so, why didnt antec do that themselves)?
This problem? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11898865#post11898865) The thread is good for troubleshooting.

IIRC the two wires from the case power buttun go to the the two pins PWN & GND on the VFD module and the two wires (red and black) from the module go to the mb's power switch pins. Search with key word "wires" in the thread.