Guide to Building a HD HTPC [Text View] - Page 3

Smitty2k1

12-09-07, 04:22 PM

audio card connections vs. quality.

Looking at the HT Omega Claro, will the s/pdif connection be a cleaner/higher quality connection vs. the miniplugs? I assume so, but not sure.
IMO in all but the highest end soundcards (X-Fi elite or Xmeridian) the digital output will sound better since your amp/receiver will likely have better DACs. However, the DACs on the two previously menitoned sound cards rivals that of many times more expensive amps and receivers.
If you just want to get digital output and are not worried about gaming, I would look into a cheaper soundcard or maybe even onboard sound with a digital output.

bmwdon

12-09-07, 05:15 PM

I am going to do gaming with this rig, COD4 is my current favorite online player. I'm feeding the audio to a onkyo 805. So will the HT Omega Claro do what I want? $150 seems steep for a audio card, but to play the 7.1 channels, the bluray/hd quality video and gaming capabilities well, I can see investing in the price of the audio card.

renethx

12-10-07, 08:14 AM

yucky

Linux RAID is fast and reliable. Windows Server is good, but perhaps too pricey for home users ($400). UnRAID (not RAID, but close to RAID 4) is a bit slow, but good enough for a media server (streaming HD files).

renethx

12-10-07, 08:17 AM

renethx

12-10-07, 08:23 AM

renethx

12-10-07, 08:41 AM

bmwdon

I am not sure about COD4, but in general EMU20K1 (CA20K1)-based cards are better than CMI8788-base cards for gaming (suppporing EAX 3/4/5 and OpenAL). Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer is a good choice (only $50 after rebate!). Of course Elite is the best choice.

bmwdon

12-10-07, 09:08 AM

bummer, I already ordered the ht omega claro card. I'm mostly concerned with the hd/blu playback quality, gaming is a second string concern, and I think the omega card is going to be better than the 5.1 onboard PC sound quality I'm used to.

I'm trying to justify replacing my 7800gt's with a pair of 8600gts right now for the cpu load relief, think the load on a am2 5200 running the 7800's is going to be great enough to effect movie playback performance, justifies getting a cheapo pair of 8600gt's? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814122024

renethx

12-10-07, 10:03 AM

Whiteknight55

12-10-07, 10:35 AM

drfous

Playing back Blue Ray or HD Dvd is the most demanding. Basically the CPU and GPU in the low-end systems in my recommedations are the minimum, IMO. If you don't mind overclocking, a lower processor (E2140, E2160) is also fine. As for audio, the onboard S/PDIF or analog audio works fo surround.
I'm considering getting an 8500GT as recommended in your minimum system builds. Would I notice any real difference if I went with an 8600GT instead? It seems like there are several good fanless 8500s but not too many fanless 8600s.

renethx

12-10-07, 11:28 AM

I'm considering getting an 8500GT as recommended in your minimum system builds. Would I notice any real difference if I went with an 8600GT instead? It seems like there are several good fanless 8500s but not too many fanless 8600s.
Just get a fanless 8500 GT, you will be fine. 8600 GT has 32 shader units (vs. 16 in 8500 GT) that affects postprocessing, in particular deinterlacing interlaced AVC material.

Whiteknight55

12-10-07, 11:38 AM

Just get a fanless 8500 GT, you will be fine. 8600 GT has 32 shader units (vs. 16 in 8500 GT) that affects postprocessing, in particular deinterlacing interlaced AVC material.

Great, thanks a lot renethx. You're a real asset to this forum!

bmwdon

12-10-07, 12:51 PM

The number of GPUs does not affect CPU offload, one GPU is enough. 8600 GT is almost identical with 8600 GTS for video playback. If you want better gaming performance, then get GeForce 8800 GT.

thanks, went for the 8800gt at buy.com http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=206577115&SearchEngine=ya&SearchTerm=206577115&Type=PI&Category=Comp&dcaid=17194

And here I thought it was just going to be a matter of a $200 combo player to get this done nicely....sound and video set me back considerably further! :rolleyes::D

lpg

12-10-07, 01:31 PM

How important is the vid memory. I have a 7800gtx with 256md. I am planning on upgrading soon and see 512 and 640mb cards out there.

Also how important is the clock speed of the gpu?

Thanks

renethx

12-10-07, 01:59 PM

thanks, went for the 8800gt at buy.com http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=206577115&SearchEngine=ya&SearchTerm=206577115&Type=PI&Category=Comp&dcaid=17194

And here I thought it was just going to be a matter of a $200 combo player to get this done nicely....sound and video set me back considerably further! :rolleyes::D
Just a note. The model you got is the 256MB version. There is a big difference between 512MB and 256MB in gaming at higher resolutions with AA on.

FiringSquad - XFX GeForce 8800 GT 256MB XXX Review

(http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/xfx_geforce_8800_gt_256mb_xxx_review/)

renethx

12-10-07, 02:04 PM

lpg

See my previous post.

bmwdon

12-10-07, 02:29 PM

Just a note. The model you got is the 256MB version. There is a big difference between 512MB and 256MB in gaming at higher resolutions with AA on.

FiringSquad - XFX GeForce 8800 GT 256MB XXX Review

(http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/xfx_geforce_8800_gt_256mb_xxx_review/)

Thanks, I canceled it, stupid site, the description reads 512 in my order, but the sku takes you to the 256 vid card. I'll hold on for another week or two and see if anybody gets these in stock someplace else.

chenjc

12-10-07, 02:34 PM

Been sifting through this thread for months
trying to get my 1080p files to play without skipping
or audio sync problems.

Bought a e4500 intel dual core 2.2ghz and ecs motherboard
at frys for $118.. and $50 bucks for 2gig ram.

This setup WILL play all 1080p files for me using cccp, wmp, vlc, or powerdvd.

No graphics card necessary!

Iteki

12-10-07, 02:37 PM

chenjc

12-10-07, 03:47 PM

ecs 945..
only snags.. was the motherboard cd-rom setup disk
is dodgy.. you may need to go to the website to download
the intel graphics drivers.. and usb 2.0 driver (1.1 defaulted)..

fry's houston friday sale through tuesday. $118

i think this one..

http://www.ecsusa.com/ECSWebSite/Products/ProductsDetail.aspx?CategoryID=1&TypeID=32&DetailID=829&DetailName=Feature&MenuID=44&LanID=9

archibael

12-10-07, 04:46 PM

Solid soultion, though it won't do (non-ripped) HD DVD and Blu-ray.

Iteki

12-10-07, 05:03 PM

drfous

12-10-07, 08:27 PM

drfous

Playing back Blue Ray or HD Dvd is the most demanding. Basically the CPU and GPU in the low-end systems in my recommedations are the minimum, IMO. If you don't mind overclocking, a lower-clocked processor (E2140, E2160, E2180) is also fine. As for audio, the onboard S/PDIF or analog audio works for surround.

Thx for the response.

I've been trying to decide between a Nvidia 8600GT and the ATI 3850. My concern is that I'm going to send HDMI to an HDTV. Sounds like the Nvidia card might have over scan issues that aren't addressed by the driver from what I've been reading.

Is this really an issue? Is the ATI 3850 capable and a safer bet?

dazzo17

12-10-07, 09:25 PM

renethx

12-11-07, 03:35 AM

Thx for the response.

I've been trying to decide between a Nvidia 8600GT and the ATI 3850. My concern is that I'm going to send HDMI to an HDTV. Sounds like the Nvidia card might have over scan issues that aren't addressed by the driver from what I've been reading.

Is this really an issue? Is the ATI 3850 capable and a safer bet?

Overscan could be a problem only with some TVs (SONY XBR, e.g., and DLP projections) and NVIDIA cards do not allow custom resolutions...

renethx

12-11-07, 03:50 AM

I have been looking for reviews on the post processing capabilities of the 3850 vs the 2600xt with avivo hd playback but have yet to find any. For a purely htpc is it worth spending the extra $ for the 3850 over the 2600xt no games and using a intel 6750.
3850 could do better postprocessing, but 2600 XT has already enough postprocessing capability. So I see no reason for going with 3850 for pure video playback (acutally 2600 Pro is enough unless you need ATI's HDMI dongle).

RealTelstar

12-11-07, 06:52 AM

That's my experience. Minja is not bad, but BTF90 is better for Q6600 @3.0GHz. Yorkfield runs cooler than Q6600, so Minja should be fine. I haven't tested Ultima-90, but it should be better than BTF90.

Thanks, the Ultima-90 didnt fit the thin zalman that i was considering before. I'm not going to overclock a single mhz the Q9300 or 9450 that i'm getting and i want an extremely silent machine. Can u mount a 120mm fan on the ultima-90?

renethx

12-11-07, 06:56 AM

Can u mount a 120mm fan on the ultima-90?
Yes.

GoldCoast

12-11-07, 08:54 AM

GoldCoast

ICH9R (used in GA-P35-DS3R) supports up to 6 drives in a RAID array. There are 8 SATA ports on the board, but two of them are from JMicron JMB363 and cannot be mixed with ICH9R RAID. ICH9R RAID is reasonably good.

thanks for the reply!!!

I'll get this board and set up a raid 5 on it. I'm still undecided which OS I'll settle with but I'm leaning more towards Vista Ultimate. There are many options out there but since the primary goal of the build is as a media server maybe there are better options out there.

curiousmurf

12-11-07, 09:49 AM

Thx for the response.

I've been trying to decide between a Nvidia 8600GT and the ATI 3850. My concern is that I'm going to send HDMI to an HDTV. Sounds like the Nvidia card might have over scan issues that aren't addressed by the driver from what I've been reading.

Is this really an issue? Is the ATI 3850 capable and a safer bet?

I've got the Nvidia 8600gt and a 720p projector and deeply regret buying it (8600gt) for the reasons you mentioned.

drfous

12-11-07, 11:08 AM

Overscan could be a problem only with some TVs (SONY XBR, e.g., and DLP projections) and NVIDIA cards do not allow custom resolutions...

Yes, I have a Mits 65734 DLP.

Speqtre

12-11-07, 11:22 AM

I've got the Nvidia 8600gt and a 720p projector and deeply regret buying it (8600gt) for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm running an Nvidia 7900GS with a 720p (Sanyo Z5) projector and the picture is pixel-perfect. The Z5 has the ability to turn off overscan though, so I'm wondering if this is display related vice an Nvidia issue? Or is it 8-series related?

borgdaddy

12-11-07, 12:31 PM

I've got the Nvidia 8600gt and a 720p projector and deeply regret buying it (8600gt) for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm looking to build an HTPC and have a Sony 720p RPLCD 50 inch TV. What graphics card should I get? No gaming, and would like a passive cooled card. Is Nvidia out?

Craigo87

12-12-07, 12:34 AM

I'm looking to build an HTPC and have a Sony 720p RPLCD 50 inch TV. What graphics card should I get? No gaming, and would like a passive cooled card. Is Nvidia out?

I've currently got an Nvidia 6600GT and am thinking about building a new htpc this summer. I've been doing some preliminary research on vid cards, and have found that ATi seems to have the edge over Nvidia. I found a review of the ATi 2600XT compared to Nvidia 8600GT. They were about the same in Vista, but the Nvidia didn't do any post processing in XP. The ATi drivers seem to be better right now. Here's the review I read,
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/06/08/avivo_vs_purevideo_hd/
The meat of the review starts around page 10/12. Hope this helps. I'd like to stick with Nvidia, but we'll see how things shake out in the next 6 months with their driver support. Not a lot of passive cards out their either. My 6600GT is a passively cooled Gigabyte card and it's been stellar.

Craigo

tlwizard

12-12-07, 04:36 AM

renethx

first thanks for putting together such a great guide. it has answered many many questions of mine. i wanted to get your advice, however, with one question although more may follow over the next few months as I prepare to build my first htpc.

if you were to build a premium system around a horizontal htpc case rather than a vertical case (as in the guide) what would that build consist of? or would only the case change?

thanks so much!

infiniti029

12-12-07, 05:18 AM

Most people seem to recommend at least a 2.4 C2D for the highest HD playback, but what about recording TWO HD shows with a HDHR? Is that enough? (i'm talking about CPU only, with onboard video).

crazyman101

12-12-07, 09:55 AM

grittree

12-12-07, 10:18 AM

Most people seem to recommend at least a 2.4 C2D for the highest HD playback, but what about recording TWO HD shows with a HDHR? Is that enough? (i'm talking about CPU only, with onboard video).

Recording HDTV is trivial to a PC since there is no decoding being done. A 1ghz machine can handle multiple recordings. It's basically just a file transfer.

Playback is where the stress is.

borgdaddy

12-12-07, 10:29 AM

I'm looking to build an HTPC and have a Sony 720p RPLCD 50 inch TV. What graphics card should I get? No gaming, and would like a passive cooled card. Is Nvidia out?

So to ask my question a different way, my TV requires a custom resolution for 1 to 1 pixel mapping. Do the Nvidia 8500/8600 or the ATI 2400/2600 series allow for custom resolution settings?

mrandtx

12-12-07, 10:44 AM

Howdy renethx,

You may want to update your recommend Intel mini-ATX card... the G35 based ASUS P5E-VM HDMI is widely available and getting pretty good reviews. After seeing the writeup on silentpcreivew (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article785-page5.html), showing the real-world power consumption seems to be on par with the G33, I've changed my mind and rather than getting the G33 based P5K-VM, I'm going to get the P5E-VM HDMI. Combined with the fact that it is competitively priced, has better video quality, and has built in HDMI, it seems like a no brainer.

Other reviews are here: reghardware (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/12/05/review_asus_p5e_vm_hdmi/), vrzone (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Asus_P5E-VM_HDMI/5427-1.html), and ocworkbench (http://www.ocworkbench.com/2007/asus/p5e-vm-hdmi/g1.htm).

Marc

mrandtx

12-12-07, 10:55 AM

Recording HDTV is trivial to a PC since there is no decoding being done. A 1ghz machine can handle multiple recordings. It's basically just a file transfer.

Playback is where the stress is.
Minor nit: it depends on what and how you are recording. If you can capture the compressed video stream, then you're correct. If you are capturing the uncompressed stream, then you either need to use the CPU to encode/compress it (which is even more work than decoding), or off-load that to a dedicated processor/engine.

Marc

grittree

12-12-07, 11:41 AM

Well, he said he is using a HDHR. As far as I know, all non-satellite HDTV is delivered as (compressed) mpeg2.

archibael

12-12-07, 02:00 PM

renethx

12-12-07, 02:00 PM

if you were to build a premium system around a horizontal htpc case rather than a vertical case (as in the guide) what would that build consist of? or would only the case change?
Needless to say your case should be big enough for 8800 GT (I guess most ATX cases accept it). You can't use Thermalright Ultra-120 (too tall). Ultima-90 is OK for several cases. Other choices are BTF90 and SI-128 SE.

renethx

12-12-07, 02:35 PM

It seems that for someone who wants HDMI output and wants to go without an HD card (initially, anyways) for HD playback, the perfect all-in-one motherboard is the GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H. I'm more inclined towards a C2D, so is there an equivalent motherboard--with respect to the features including decent onboard video--for Intel C2Ds chips?

I'm leaning towards Intel b/c this PC will operate as a PVR and will be on 24/7. There's electricity consumption and heat issues that I understand Intel will be better than AMD with.
Feature/performance: ASUS P5E-VM HDMI (or GIGAGYTE GA-G33M-S2H) ~ GA-MA69GM-S2H.

Power consumption: E2180 + P5E-VM HDMI ~ BE-2400 + GA-MA69GM-S2H.

Price: E2180 + P5E-VM HDMI ~$232 >> BE-2400 + GA-MA69GM-S2H ~$177.

where "~" is "is almost equal to". IMO, GA-MA69GM-S2H with a 45W processor is a better choice.

renethx

12-12-07, 03:38 PM

This is an appendix to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11478365#post11478365).

For G35 Chipset Motherboards

FSB 800 Strap

DDR2-533 = 3:4 = 1.33
DDR2-667 = 3:5 = 1.66
DDR2-800 = 1:2 = 2
FSB 1066 Strap

DDR2-533 = 1:1 = 1
DDR2-667 = 4:5 = 1.25
DDR2-800 = 2:3 = 1.5
FSB 1333 Strap

DDR2-667 = 1:1 = 1
DDR2-800 = 5:6 = 1.2
(Note that DDR2-533 = 4:5 = 0.8 is not available!)

G35 is similar to P35/G33 in that it supports FSB 1333, but it also supports DDR2-533 (like P965/G965). Thus, the available memory multiplier for P5E-VM HDMI are the following seven:

1, 1.2, 1.25, 1.33, 1.5, 1.66, 2

For example, at FSB 400MHz, the available DRAM frequencies are:

DDR2-800MHz, DDR2-960MHz, DDR2-1000MHz, DDR2-1066MHz, DDR2-1200MHz, DDR2-1333MHz, DDR2-1600MHz.

For P45/G45 Chipset Motherboards

FSB 800 Strap

DDR2-667 = 3:5 = 1.66
DDR2-800 = 1:2 = 2
FSB 1066 Strap

DDR2-667 = 4:5 = 1.25
DDR2-800 = 2:3 = 1.5
DDR2-1066 = 1:2 = 2
FSB 1333 Strap

DDR2-667 = 1:1 = 1
DDR2-800 = 5:6 = 1.2
FSB 1600 Strap

DDR2-800 = 1:1 = 1
For example, if you want to get CPU to run at 3.6GHz, you will set FSB = 400MHz. Then you can set memory multiplier to any value you like as long as memory runs within the specs (500MHz = DDR2-1000 in the case of F2-8000CL5D-4GBPQ): 1, 1.2, 1.25 (choose the proper strap before that). The next value is 1.5, with which you memory would run at 400MHz x 1.5 = 600MHz = DDR2-1200, that may cause instability or even crash of the system. If you choose DDR2-1066, you will have more headroom for FSB at mem multiplier 1.25 (FSB = 426.4MHz assuming mb/CPU runs fine at that speed). (But you can always lower it to 1.2 with DDR2-1000...)

Mano-ID

12-12-07, 03:49 PM

Can is just say you've done an excellent job with this guide. It helped me a lot making some choices!

Keep up the good work!

renethx

12-13-07, 04:12 AM

OCWorkBench - BIOSAR MCP78 board leaked (http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?%20threadid=69427)
NVIDIA is probably trying to launch their MCP78 ahead of RS780 after seeing that 7050-630a (mcp68) failed to entice users. This MCP78 and RS780 are competing products from NVIDIA and AMD respectively.

On ZOL, there is a photo of the board model N78UA-A2T belonging to the T-series of boards. The board has integrated graphics. On the I/O, it has DVI, HDMI and D SUB. It also has 6 SATA II ports, 1 IDE channel 3 PCIe x1, 3 PCI and 1 PCIe x16, 7.1 ch audio.

On top of that MCP78 supports Hybrid SLI, which in this case allows graphics performance to be improved. It is said that the MCP78 performs 1.X in SLI mode with a 8400 series card. That is to say, MCP78 is actually having a 8400 graphics core within.

More photos here (http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=424268#post424268)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9116/celdjeibm2m2qfl3.jpg

renethx

12-13-07, 05:51 AM

Custom PC (http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601770/rumour-control-intel-to-introduce-p45-chipset-in-january-2008.html)

Intel plans to launch X48 (FSB1600 version of X38) in January 2008. Another member of Eaglelake family (Intel 4-Series; the next Intel chipset family), P45, may be introduced as early as in January 2008. Basically P45 is the same as P35 with FSB 1600MHz.

Intel usually introduces a new chipset family around May-June each year. Early launch (if true) seems to coincide with the launch of Nehalem-Tylersburg-Ibexpeak in H2 2008.

SweetHip

12-13-07, 09:07 AM

Thanks renethx for this guide, you da man.. quick question
Im looking into a mATX system, Im looking into the GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM using component (my HDMI is already used up)... But my concern is the on board video.. Should i just go with a 8600, will the quality of my HD rips look better on my 50" Plasma

One other thing is the optical spdif, is there a adapter that can convert to coaxial SPDIF output

SweetHip

12-13-07, 09:14 AM

Just a heads up, newegg has the NSK2480 on sale for $99.99..
click add to cart, and use this promo code EMC1211CASE04, to get another $30 off

thanks again renethx

renethx

12-13-07, 05:30 PM

But my concern is the on board video.. Should i just go with a 8600, will the quality of my HD rips look better on my 50" Plasma

One other thing is the optical spdif, is there a adapter that can convert to coaxial SPDIF output
Both are equally great. An optical-to-coaxial converter is here (http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat%5Fid=3103&sku=40019) (you may find a better price elsewhere). The cheapest way is build your own coaxial S/PDIF bracket as the mb has an S/PDIF connector (the total cost is $7). See my old guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=710828).

SweetHip

12-13-07, 09:41 PM

thanks for that... I currently have This MCE Remote (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16880100851) does anyone know of a hack or something so i can make the IR receiver work while it being inside my case?? I dont use the remote, just the IR reciever w\ a harmony 880

jetcobra

12-14-07, 03:36 PM

:confused:

After collecting components over several months, I sat down yesterday to assemble my new HTPC. My components are listed below:

Gigabyte GA-965G-DS3 MB
ADATA 2GB 800Mhz KIT
ANTEC NEO HE 500W PS
SEAGATE 500GB BARRACUDA SATA HDD
EVGA 8500GT 256MB
E4300 PROCESSOR
LG GGC-H20L HD DVD/BLURAY READER/DVD BURNER
MEMOREX DL DVD BURNER

I have assembled several PC's before with very little problem, but this one has me stumped??

I installed the memory, CPU and Fan on the MB as described in the MB manual. Same with the HDD and DVD Drives. I then connected the ANTEC PS as described, and when I applied power and pressed the PWR Switch, I got nothing, so I checked to make sure that I had connected the PWR Switch correctly to the MB, and I had connected it as described, but I tried other locations on the pin header anyway, but got nothing. I checked all of the brass headers that the MB was mounted on and there were no shorts. I have two of the same PS, so I tried the other one and got the same result.

I called Gigabyte and they suggested that I remove the MB and connect only the PS and the CPU FAN, nothing else, so I did this. They said if the fan ran and the PS actuated, then it would be a problem with some other component not the MB, so I did as instructed and still got nothing, so I'm returning the MB to Gigabyte for service, but I wanted to ask the Forum if there is any other possibility that I should check?

Thanks for any help

cybrsage

12-14-07, 03:54 PM

:confused:

I called Gigabyte and they suggested that I remove the MB and connect only the PS and the CPU FAN, nothing else, so I did this. They said if the fan ran and the PS actuated, then it would be a problem with some other component not the MB, so I did as instructed and still got nothing, so I'm returning the MB to Gigabyte for service, but I wanted to ask the Forum if there is any other possibility that I should check?

Thanks for any help

I have read that up to 20% of all motherboards are received DOA. I cannot remember where I read this, and it was a few years back.

Regardless, it is most likely the motherboard. Do any lights on the motherboard turn on when you do the test? Does the fan in the PS turn on?

Also, make sure the power switch on the PS is turned on (I am sure you checked this, but it is one of those "oh crap" mistakes everyone makes from time to time).

jetcobra

12-14-07, 04:43 PM

soyuppy

12-14-07, 04:48 PM

2Channel

12-14-07, 07:32 PM

renethx, great job on the guide.

I've built PC's before, but I'm now starting to plan my first HTPC project. I'm most concerned about my lack of knowledge on important features for video cards in this type of application. I'm thinking of using either an ATI hd3850 (or hd3870) or maybe one of the new Nvidia G9 based cards coming in February. I had some questions I was hoping you could help me with.

Can the latest ATI/Nvidia cards be configured to output 1080i60 (this is my preferred setting for my TV)? How hard is this to accomplish?

Does anyone have the new ATI cards with HDMI ports (it would make things easier)?

Do you know if there are any interesting features (from an HTPC perspective) coming in the new G9 series?

renethx

12-14-07, 08:01 PM

GeForce 9 Series

- GeForce 9800 (D9E) (E for enthusiast; high-end): February, DirectX 10.1, Shader Model 4.1
- GeForce 9600 GT (D9P) (P for Performance; midrange): February 14, 2008
- D9M (low-end): summer
(TechConnect Magazine (http://www.tcmagazine.com/comments.php?shownews=17085&catid=2))

They will be equipped with PureVideo HD Gen 3 (in particular VC-1 decode engine) just like the recent G98-8400GS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12394110#post12394110). Other than that nothing is known.

renethx

12-14-07, 08:15 PM

HD 3870 (RV670 XT), HD 3850 (RV670 PRO) and HD 3870 X2 (RV680) (January 28, 2008) are for gamers. For HTPC users,

- HD 3670 (RV635 XT): 120sp 800MHz GDDR3/256MB/1600MHz/128-bit
- HD 3650 (RV635 PRO): 120sp 600MHz GDDR2/512MB/1000MHz/128-bit
- HD 3470 (RV620 XT): $59
- HD 3450 (RV620 PRO): $49

All four models will be announced on January 28, 2008. HD 3600 is a 55nm version of HD 2600 and HD 3400 that of HD 2400, so the performance is close. The HD 3000 Series has UVD+, an improved version of UVD. The only missing feature in UVD is the true HDMI audio. But this feature will not be implemented in this series, unfortunately (I mean audio over HDMI is restricted to 16-bit stereo LPCM/5.1 DD/DTS).

Expreview.com - RV635 spy pic leaked, and our speculations (http://en.expreview.com/?p=113)
The PCB design is exactly the same with HD 2600XT in our hand. The difference is RV635 added on some more capacitors in the front, memory chips, and a 16pin connector at the back.

We noticed the CrossfireX connector is disappeared in HD 3650’s board. That’s because it will use software-crossfire.

2Channel

12-14-07, 10:48 PM

HD 3870, HD 3850 and HD 3870 X2 are for gamers. For HTPC users,

- HD 3670 (RV635 XT): January 2008; 120sp　800MHz　GDDR3/256MB/1600MHz/128-bit
- HD 3650 (RV635 PRO): February 2008; 120sp　600MHz　GDDR2/512MB/1000MHz/128-bit
- HD 3470 (RV610 XT): $59, early next year
- HD 3450 (RV610 PRO): $49, early next year

The performance HD 3600 may be close to HD 2600, HD 3400 to HD 2400. The only missing feature in the current UVD is the true HDMI audio. But nothing is known concerning this point.

Expreview.com - RV635 spy pic leaked, and our speculations (http://en.expreview.com/?p=113)

Thanks renethx! What makes the 34xx and 36xx series better suited to HTPC use? Ideally I'm hoping to use my HTPC for as many functions as possible, including playing games.

mdoog

12-14-07, 11:12 PM

renethx

12-15-07, 12:24 AM

Thanks renethx! What makes the 34xx and 36xx series better suited to HTPC use? Ideally I'm hoping to use my HTPC for as many functions as possible, including playing games.
I didn't mean that HD 38xx is not suited for HTPC. HD 38xx (and 8800 GT) is ideal for a HTPC+gaming system.

renethx

12-15-07, 12:44 AM

ok i feel stupid having to ask this but iv searched and havent found anything specifically adressing what im trying to figure out dealing with hooking up audio

so with the auzen x-fi prelude, im going over how to connect it with my receiver, so for playing movies and such with surround, that would all be via s/pdif since it needs to be digital, but for playing music, being a digital hookup, it would then be using the DAC's in the reciever right? the prelude has superior DAC's though so how would i utilize these? the analog outputs of the card are just front, surround, center/sub, etc, with no L or R, so how would i connect this card to my receiver and use the DAC's of the prelude for playing music?
To use the receiver's DAC: Connect the sound card's S/PDIF OUT to the receiver's DIGITAL OPTICAL/COAXIAL IN (in the case of Onkyo receivers)

To use the sound card's DAC: Connect the sound card's FRONT OUT, REAR OUT, CENTER/WOOFER OUT, BACK SURROUND OUT to the receiver's DVD IN: FRONT, SURR, CENTER, SUBWOOFER, SURR BACK.

mdoog

12-15-07, 01:51 AM

To use the receiver's DAC: Connect the sound card's S/PDIF OUT to the receiver's DIGITAL OPTICAL/COAXIAL IN (in the case of Onkyo receivers)

To use the sound card's DAC: Connect the sound card's FRONT OUT, REAR OUT, CENTER/WOOFER OUT, BACK SURROUND OUT to the receiver's DVD IN: FRONT, SURR, CENTER, SUBWOOFER, SURR BACK.

ok thats what i was thinking, now what i didnt and still dont quite understand is how do i actually make these connections?

the sound card has the front out, rear out, back surround out and center/woofer out where as the receiver has front L, front R, rear L, rear R, center, and woofer, so how are you supposed to wire the front out to goto the front L and front R, center/woofer to goto center and woofer, etc?

Condar

12-15-07, 04:41 AM

ok thats what i was thinking, now what i didnt and still dont quite understand is how do i actually make these connections?

the sound card has the front out, rear out, back surround out and center/woofer out where as the receiver has front L, front R, rear L, rear R, center, and woofer, so how are you supposed to wire the front out to goto the front L and front R, center/woofer to goto center and woofer, etc?

Using stereo 1/8" mini jack cables.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96718&d=1197711661

soyuppy

12-15-07, 12:24 PM

brianley

12-15-07, 03:59 PM

Has anyone tried using one of these?
http://www.addonics.com/products/external_cd/mobilehd_dvd_rrw.asp
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136133&Tpk=LG%2bHD%2bDVD

Anything out there that offer these combo format? Internal?

There are entire threads dedicated to the combo drives - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=927751

soyuppy

12-16-07, 12:42 PM

soyuppy

12-16-07, 01:11 PM

brianley

12-16-07, 01:31 PM

I'm trying to get rid of my high pitched noise. At first I thought it's from the CPU fan, I removed the fan, leaving only heatsink on the CPU. But this high pitch tone is still around. It's pretty loud.

Does anyone know if it's the heatsink, CPU, MB that make this high pitch noise?
Mobo: MSI G33M-FI LGA 775 Intel G33
CPU: Intel Dual-Core E2180 2.0 GHz
Cooling: CoolMaster Hyper L3 RR-LCH-P9E1-GP
Anyone know/have heard of this and know how to get rid off it?

I'm tempted to remove the heatsink next and just try turning it on without the any cooling. There are only 3 items left to eliminate. Would anyone recommended doing this?

Only if you want to fry the CPU - the heatsink and fan are there for a reason. I wouldn't run it without the fan for more than 30 sec or so, and if the heatsink is passive (no fan), it isn't creating any noise.

The minimum you need to get the system to post is the motherboard, CPU and ram (since video is onboard). I've never heard of a motherboard itself creating noise, does this one have any onboard fans? Could it be the fan in the power supply or any of the case fans? The case fans could be unhooked for troubleshooting easily enough.

soyuppy

12-16-07, 01:58 PM

Only if you want to fry the CPU - the heatsink and fan are there for a reason. I wouldn't run it without the fan for more than 30 sec or so, and if the heatsink is passive (no fan), it isn't creating any noise.

The minimum you need to get the system to post is the motherboard, CPU and ram (since video is onboard). I've never heard of a motherboard itself creating noise, does this one have any onboard fans? Could it be the fan in the power supply or any of the case fans? The case fans could be unhooked for troubleshooting easily enough.
for 10 second :)...I turn it on without the heatsink and the fan. The noise is still there. I tested the PS by itself already. It wasn't it. No other fan in the system.

So it's either the mb or cpu...and since I can't test one without the other, I'm sol. Have to figure how to get another CPU and different board just to test and be able to return it :) hummm

renethx

12-16-07, 03:37 PM

I have couple more questions on the GPU. My htpc is purely for video playback only, SD and may be HD.

Is there any difference in performance in?

Memory size (256 vs 512)
Memory type (DDR2, DDR3, DDR4)
128-bit vs 64-bit?

Also, what is the purpose of dual DVI/D-sub outputs? Are there any applicability in the THPC usage?

Memory size, type and path width have little effect on video playback. 256MB, DDR2, 64-bit is enough. Dual outputs is useful for dual display (D-sub for PC monitor/LCD touch screen and DVI for HDTV).

renethx

12-16-07, 03:49 PM

I'm trying to get rid of my high pitched noise. At first I thought it's from the CPU fan, I removed the fan, leaving only heatsink on the CPU. But this high pitch tone is still around. It's pretty loud.

Does anyone know if it's the heatsink, CPU, MB that make this high pitch noise?
Mobo: MSI G33M-FI LGA 775 Intel G33
CPU: Intel Dual-Core E2180 2.0 GHz
Cooling: CoolMaster Hyper L3 RR-LCH-P9E1-GP
Anyone know/have heard of this and know how to get rid off it?

I'm tempted to remove the heatsink next and just try turning it on without the any cooling. There are only 3 items left to eliminate. Would anyone recommended doing this?

Temporarily stop the CPU fan and all the case fans. If high pitch noise is still there, it's PSU. The only remedy is replace PSU.

If it's not PSU, then case fans are the culprit. Use 5V/7V trick (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article6-page1.html) or Zalman Fan Mate.

Another possibility is coil in mb or PSU.

ocharlies

12-16-07, 05:23 PM

renethx

12-16-07, 05:46 PM

Thanks renethx. I learned a lot by reading through your guide. You obviously are very knowledgeable about computers and their components.

I have a question: I currently have a Dell xps 410. It only allows 2 hard drives inside. I want to have a pc with up to 6 - 8 sata hard drives. I already have a Cooler Master 330 case which can hold 7 internal hard drives.

Will I be better off build a new pc with ds3r motherboard (which has 8 sata connectors), or build an external storage and add an expansion card to the xps 410?

Using Dell XPS 410 is the cheapest way. 5.25" bay can be turned into 3.5" bay by using HDD mounting bracket. 3.5" bay should be used for HDD too. The mb has 4 SATA ports, right? So you need 4 more SATA ports and a 4 HDD external enclosure.

- PROMISE SATA300 TX4 4-port SATA PCI adapter $60
- 4-channel SATA PCI Bracket (http://www.cooldrives.com/sapciadsaian.html) $30
- HighPoint IB-1M InfiniBand SFF-8470 to InfiniBand SFF-8470 1 meter cable, $31
- Addonics MST4ML-B Mini Storage Tower $140

Total: $261

If you need RAID, it's a different story.

Edited

If you use

- Addonics ADSA4R-ML 4X SATA Multilane PCI controller (http://www.addonics.com/products/multilane/ad4saml.asp) $50

instead of PROMISE TX4, you don't need a 4-channel SATA PCI Bracket, thus the total cost will be $221.

soyuppy

12-16-07, 07:05 PM

Temporarily stop the CPU fan and all the case fans. If high pitch noise is still there, it's PSU. The only remedy is replace PSU.

If it's not PSU, then case fans are the culprit. Use 5V/7V trick (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article6-page1.html) or Zalman Fan Mate.

Another possibility is coil in mb or PSU.

Thanks for all the help. I actually took it to the Geek Squad at Best Buy. What the heck. Might as well see if they can help me. They were not able to help me ,but they hinted that the hight pitched is not coming form the mother board or the PSU. But from the case!!! The case?

So I brought it back home and start further elimination process. Disconnected all the HDD LED, Reset SW, Power LED headers...leaving only the Power SW connected. High pitch went away. Wow :) We are getting somewhere.

Connect back the Power LED. Still OK.
Connect back the HDD LED. Still OK
Connect back the Reset SW. High Pitched Come back :(
Swap the polarity on Reset SW. Noise gone. :) Happy Camper now.

So it sucks that the case connector does not have any polarity marker. I was trying to use the color code (anything white = neutral or -). But in this case the white cable is the + and the purple cable is the -.

Now I'm ready for next phase. Installing software and oc'ing.

grittree

12-16-07, 07:55 PM

That is weird. How can a momentary close switch have polarity?

ocharlies

12-16-07, 09:25 PM

Using Dell XPS 410 is the cheapest way. 5.25" bay can be turned into 3.5" bay by using HDD mounting bracket. 3.5" bay should be used for HDD too. The mb has 4 SATA ports, right? So you need 4 more SATA ports and a 4 HDD external enclosure.

- PROMISE SATA300 TX4 4-port SATA PCI adapter $60
- 4-channel SATA PCI Bracket (http://www.cooldrives.com/sapciadsaian.html) $30
- HighPoint IB-1M InfiniBand SFF-8470 to InfiniBand SFF-8470 1 meter cable x 2, $31
- Addonics MST4ML-B Mini Storage Tower $140

Total: $261

If you need RAID, it's a different story.

I like the idea that with an external storage I can move it to another computer if necessary.

Thanks for the suggestion and the components information.

mrandtx

12-17-07, 12:05 PM

I have read that up to 20% of all motherboards are received DOA. I cannot remember where I read this, and it was a few years back.

Regardless, it is most likely the motherboard. Do any lights on the motherboard turn on when you do the test? Does the fan in the PS turn on?

Also, make sure the power switch on the PS is turned on (I am sure you checked this, but it is one of those "oh crap" mistakes everyone makes from time to time).
I *seriously* doubt that the 20% statistic, or at least doubt that it is the suppliers fault. The more I think about it, the more I think its safe to assume that it is not the case at all ... otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't make any money at all. With the (high) reliability and speed of manufacturing processes and electrical testing, failure rates of electronic is typically down in the lower single digits. Now maybe ECS and cheapies like them don't do proper testing, but that is a VERY risky business model because they run thin margins and dealing with a high rate of returned products could seriously lower profit margin and productivity (although in ECS's case, they may just throw it away rather than repair it).

Now what I would believe is that 20% of the motherboards are not installed properly and get returned due to ESTO (a term a former co-worker invented: Equipment Superior To Operator).

Marc

ksuchris2000

12-17-07, 03:29 PM

Unfortunately HDMI audio has not been realized yet in the PC world and we are still confined to S/PDIF. As a matter of facts, every HDMI video card simply passes S/PDIF signals from a sound card or onboard audio codec over the HDMI connector. Thus there is no real advantage of the current HDMI solution over the existing DVI + S/PDIF solution. Recent IGPs (ATI Radeon Xpress 1250 for Intel and AMD 690G) are no exception. Right now the only way to take the full-rate lossless multichannel sounds from the PC is use analog outputs.

The upcoming ATI HD 2000 series GPU has a built-in audio controller that makes it possible to grab audio outputs directly through the PCI Express bus, but the audio quality is still at the level of S/PDIF. The following figure shows the ideal HDMI audio solution we are waiting for that transmits lossless full-bitrate multichannel PCM audio streams.

I realize we're only 30 days down the road since this was written on pp 1 of this topic, but has this changed? THis is one of the things that holds me back from building right now. I have invested in several new pieces of AV Hardware that allow me to have lossless and I love the idea of having a HTPC in my theater..... but.....

Thanks

archibael

12-17-07, 04:36 PM

Yes. HDMI LPCM audio is available on Intel integrated graphics boards with built-in HDMI, or with the addition of an HDMI ADD2 card. But there is not currently a discrete graphics card which will allow it, and so you're essentially trading great HW acceleration of H.264/VC1 (on Nvidia or ATI) for HDMI audio (Intel).

soyuppy

12-18-07, 10:59 AM

Thanks for all the help. I actually took it to the Geek Squad at Best Buy. What the heck. Might as well see if they can help me. They were not able to help me ,but they hinted that the hight pitched is not coming form the mother board or the PSU. But from the case!!! The case?

So I brought it back home and start further elimination process. Disconnected all the HDD LED, Reset SW, Power LED headers...leaving only the Power SW connected. High pitch went away. Wow :) We are getting somewhere.

Connect back the Power LED. Still OK.
Connect back the HDD LED. Still OK
Connect back the Reset SW. High Pitched Come back :(
Swap the polarity on Reset SW. Noise gone. :) Happy Camper now.

So it sucks that the case connector does not have any polarity marker. I was trying to use the color code (anything white = neutral or -). But in this case the white cable is the + and the purple cable is the -.

Now I'm ready for next phase. Installing software and oc'ing.
The !@#$ noise is back. I have an AMD desktop, so I took the drastic measure:

Put the old board into the new case & PSU. Silent as it was in the old case.
Put the new board into the old desktop and PSU. Same noise :(

So it's the board. Something got shorts. I really like this board because it's the only G33 that has e-SATA, but this is th e 2nd one, I'm not sure if I should try "3 luck charms".

Gurra

12-19-07, 08:16 AM

Sounds like one of the voltage regulators on the motherboard, could be the culprit. See if you can get the board replaced on warranty.

Gurra

12-19-07, 10:16 AM

Come to think of it - stick a multimeter across your reset switch. It should neither ground, nor put a voltage on any pin, it should merely short or open.

ratbrain

12-19-07, 06:49 PM

renethx or anybody else,

I am building a modest media server with an Antec P180 case. My question is will the Lian-Li Internal HDD Rack EX-34B fit / be compatible with a P180?

I intend to fill the 6 internal 3.5 inch bays with 6X Seagate 750 gig drives, convert 3 of the external 5.25 bays with the Lian Li into 4 more 3.5 bays for 1x 320 gig WD for OS drive (windows server 2003) and the remaining 3x 3.5 bays for future expansion. The remaining 5.25 external bay for dvd rom/writer.

TIA

Edema

12-20-07, 12:51 AM

Thanks for the guides! I'm in the process of narrowing some things down for a planned build and they were a big help!

If I decide to go ahead it'll take the place of my Oppo which I have connected with a DVI to HDMI cable to my Samsung 1080p DLP display. I have a 5.1 setup and due to room constraints am not planning to upgrade to 7.1. I might be able to go optical but would rather use the RCA-type connection (S/PDIF).

I managed to get an unRAID server up which will be connected via gigabit ethernet. I'd like to be able rip DVD/HD-DVD/BD to the unRAID and play back on the HTPC and use my Harmony 360 remote to control at least most of the system. Being able to occasionally play WoW in the living room instead of my office would be a nice side bonus.

I used the mid-range ATX suggestions as a starting point and came up with this:

SILVERSTONE GD01B-MXR Black Aluminum front panel, 0.8 mm SECC body ATX Media Center / HTPC Desktop Computer Case - Retail
Model #: GD01B-MXR
Item #: N82E16811163076
$259.99 -$10.00 Instant $249.99

GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: GA-P35-DS3L
Item #: N82E16813128059
$89.99
Figured I might as well save a few bucks here. The unRAID will be my primary storage so I'm only going to be using 1 drive and don't need RAID or a bunch of SATA connections. Besides, I'm familiar with this board (used it for my desktop for similar reasons).

SAPPHIRE 100208L Radeon HD 2600XT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 100208L
Item #: N82E16814102700
$99.99
Chose the ATi card because I've read they're easier to get working with DLP displays due to overscan issues. If this isn't the case, I'd actually prefer to use nVidia if it'll work well my my TV.

Antec earthwatts EA380 ATX12V v2.0 380W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: EA380
Item #: N82E16817371005
$59.99
Cut back a little on the wattage and went for a more efficient power supply. Again, won't be adding a bunch of stuff to this anytime soon, so I figured 380W would be enough.

Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 Allendale 2.2GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E4500 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E4500
Item #: N82E16819115031
$124.99
Should be overclockable if necessary.

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ - Retail
Model #: F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
Item #: N82E16820231098
$86.99 -$40.00 Instant $46.99

LG Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA Model GGC-H20L - Retail
Model #: GGC-H20L
Item #: N82E16827136133
$299.99

ZEROtherm BTF90 92mm Silent UFO CPU Cooler - Retail
Model #: BTF90
Item #: N82E16835887002
$37.99

I'd appreciate any thoughts on these choices.

And as much help as the hardware guide is, I'm looking forward to the software section even more. I'm still a bit confused about how all this is actually going to work once it's hooked up. I don't mind tweaking/installing/etc, but if my wife can't select play movie with the Harmony remote then put the disc in and press play, this isn't going to fly.

utee05

12-21-07, 10:28 AM

Hi All,
I'm looking to start my HTPC build in the new year and I'm following the recommend Premium ATX setup, except that I'm looking to get a Gigabyte x38 motherboard to support crossfire. I'm also going to use my hd-dvd add-on drive from my Xbox to play hd-dvds and dvds. My question is, has anyone been able to get lossless audio out of the hd-dvd/blu-ray drives? If so, how? What software/hardware is needed to get lossless audio. I will be hooking up the htpc to my onkyo 805.

renethx

12-21-07, 11:00 AM

archibael

12-21-07, 11:35 AM

My question is, has anyone been able to get lossless audio out of the hd-dvd/blu-ray drives? If so, how? What software/hardware is needed to get lossless audio. I will be hooking up the htpc to my onkyo 805.

You can get lossless on HDMI, but not with the x38 system you propose. Essentially you can have lossless over HDMI with Intel integrated graphics, or you can have a discrete graphics card. It does not appear you can have both, currently.

That's just the hardware and driver side. Currently, no player software will put out anything higher than 16bit/48kHz on AACS-protected material over HDMI or analog because there's no protected path between the software app and the sound hardware. PowerDVD says they are working to fix this on certain Realtek sound chips because those chips have encryption capabilities, and next year there will be more options.

But for now, the difficulties are legion.

utee05

12-21-07, 11:36 AM

You can't get lossless audio in digital form (24-bit LPCM). The best method is use analog audio.

So would I just use the analog outs on my motherboard and connect those directly to the receiver?

renethx

12-21-07, 12:03 PM

Currently, no player software will put out anything higher than 16bit/48kHz on AACS-protected material over HDMI or analog because there's no protected path between the software app and the sound hardware.
What about ArcSoft Digital Theater?

There is a long thread on this matter: FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD.

archibael

12-21-07, 04:15 PM

What about ArcSoft Digital Theater?

There is a long thread on this matter: FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892863).

According to my read on the latest findings on that thread, the Arcsoft player is going to enable >16bit/48kHz lossless on non-AACS protected material only.

NamesJay

12-23-07, 03:26 PM

I am in the process of accumulating the parts to build this model that you posted about on the first page of the thread:

Premium I

The final ATX systems aim at not only HTPC but heavy gaming and workstation.

System

CPU: Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz Socket 775, $280.
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme, $56.
CPU Fan: Scythe S-FLEX S-FDB 120mm Fan SFF21E, $15.
Motherboard: eVGA 132-CK-NF78-A1 nForce 780i SLI ATX, $260. An alternative is XFX MB-N680-ISH9 nForce 680i SLI ATX, $200.
Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit, $50 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Graphics Card: XFX GeForce 8800 GT 512MB DDR3 PV-T88P-YDF4, $270; two of this card for SLI, $540.
HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA, $110.
PSU: Corsair HX620W, $140.
Case: Cooler Master COSMOS 1000, $180.
Total Cost: $1361 for non-SLI, $1631 for SLI

Later in your video card recommendations, you don't list this graphics card. I'm sure that this section probably just hasn'tb been updated, but my question is what are the differences between the 8800 GT and the 8600 and 8500 models? Are you familiar with the advantages/disadvantages?

I really appreciate all the work you have put into this thread... makes things SO much easier!

MiBz

12-23-07, 03:56 PM

Renethx,

Based on your suggestion, I'm about to order the GIGABYTE GA-G33M-DS3R ATX mobo for my WHS server build going into a 4U rackmount case. Mainly because It has 8 Sata ports and comes with cable/pci port adapter for 2 eSATA ports.

I checked the online manual for D3SR http://america.giga-byte.com/FileList/Manual/motherboard_manual_ga-g33-ds3r_e.pdf last night, but something isn't quite clear to me.

It looks like SATA0 to SATA5 ( 6 ports) are on the ICH9R chip and the SATA6/7 (2 ports) are on the PCIe bus.

Some questions;

1. Can I plug the 2 eSATA port cables to the SATA6/7 and will this support PM for an external SATA array or does which SATA port on the mobo I connect to matter in order to support PM (Port Multiplyer)?

2. I'd like to hardware Raid1 my primary WHS OS drive to protect in case of drive failure using the ICH9R raid on SATA0/1, which should work fine. But can I also enable AHCI at the same time to support hot swapping drives on the remaining SATA channels ?

3. Idealy, I'd like to connect the drives this way

SATA0 500GB WHS OS RAID1 Mirror with SATA1
SATA1 500GB WHS OS RADI1 Mirror with SATA0

SATA2 500GB Storage pool / AHCI Hot swap drive
SATA3 500GB Storage pool / AHCI Hot swap drive
SATA4 500GB Storage pool / AHCI Hot swap drive
SATA5 500GB Storage pool / AHCI Hot swap drive

SATA6 to rear eSATA connector (PM support)
SATA7 to rear eSATA connector (PM support)

4. When I eventualy need to add more internal drives to the SATA2-5 storage pool can I simply just add a PM (port multiplier card) like the Addonics AD5SAPM 5 connected to SATA5 port to get 5 more internal SATA ports or will I need a full blown SATA controller ?

Lastly I like the CODEGEN 4U-500-CA case but would really like hotswap bays. Would a 5 in 3 3.5"hotswap cage fit on the right 3x5.25" bays ? and if so can you suggest a good one ?Or would I be better off getting a Norco or iStar case that already has the hotswaps built in ?

That would essentially give me 7 internal 3.5" and 5 hotswaps for a total of 12 drives:)

Thanks again for your great guide which has helped me tremendously and for your advice to these questions.

Smitty2k1

12-23-07, 04:11 PM

crabnebula

12-23-07, 11:11 PM

According to my read on the latest findings on that thread, the Arcsoft player is going to enable >16bit/48kHz lossless on non-AACS protected material only.

Which would mean that you WILL be able to get lossless if you use AnyDVD HD to remove the AACS protection?

archibael

12-23-07, 11:57 PM

Which would mean that you WILL be able to get lossless if you use AnyDVD HD to remove the AACS protection?

I am told this is the case, though of course I would never advocate doing such a naughty thing. :D

renethx

12-24-07, 01:50 AM

NamesJay

As Smitty2k1 said, the difference is 3D performance.

8800 GT: 112 shader processor units, 256-bit/512MB memory
8600 GTS/GT: 32 shader processor units, 128-bit/256MB memory
8500 GT: 16 shader processor units, 128-bit/256MB memory

BTW,

9600 GT: 64 shader processor units, 256-bit/512MB, $169 (to be released on February 14, 2008)

that replaces 8600 GTS and is better than Radeon HD 3850 by 20-40%. Perhaps it is equipped with PureVideo HD Gen 3 that has VC-1 decode engine (finally!).

renethx

12-24-07, 02:55 AM

MiBz

1/4. Both JMB363 and ICH9R support PM (command-based), but ICH9R seems to have a driver problem (may have changed though). In general you'd better buy a FIS-based PM-aware SATA controller and attach PM enclosures to it. Here is a list of such cards:

- HighPoint RocketRAID 2522 (PCIe x8; 2 SFF-8088, 8 eSATA; 88SX6042), $348
- Addonics ADSA3GPX8-4E (PCIe x8; 4 eSATA; SiI3124), $180
- HighPoint RocketRAID 2314 (PCIe x4; 4 eSATA; 88SX7042), $165
- HighPoint RocketRAID 2304 (PCIe x1; 4 eSATA; 88SX7042), $142
- NORCO NORCO-4629 (PCIe x4/x8; 4 SATA; SiI3124), $160
- Addonics ADSA3GPX1-2E (PCIe x1; 2 SATA; SiI3132), $40
- NORCO NORCO-4627 (PCIe x1; 2 SATA; SiI3132), $33

2. Perhaps you need to have a AHCI driver and install it by F6.

A 5-in-3 3.5" hot-swap cage should fit on 3 x 5.25" bays. There are many 5-in-3 3.5" hot-swap cages (usually called "back plane" or "backplane"). Athena Power BP-SATA3051B 3 x 5.25" Bays to 5 x 3.5" HD (SATA) (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817995001) is popular in this forum. Lian-Li PC-A16B is a good case for 15 hot-swappable bays:

http://www.lime-technology.com/Images/pc-a16b-closed.jpg

(can be placed horizontally). The picture is from unRAID (http://www.lime-technology.com/wordpress/?page_id=45).

NamesJay

12-24-07, 03:06 AM

renethx, do you think the following motherboard will work for the Premium I setup?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813141005&Tpk=xfx

renethx

12-24-07, 03:13 AM

renethx, do you think the following motherboard will work for the Premium I setup?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813141005&Tpk=xfx

Yes, it works. eVGA 780i and XFX 780i are identical, manufactured at the same factory.

internetgardener

12-24-07, 05:11 PM

Renethx,

Awesome post ... and great thread. I have been looking for something like this for a number of weeks ... how awesome.

I ended up specing my system today (v. similar to your Premium I). I got the XFX Nforce 780I SLI but I did go with a couple of changes and wanted your feedback.

The Graphics card I went with was the: XFX GeForce 8800GTS 650MHZ 512MB 1.94GHZ DDR3. This was because they didn't have any of the regular 8800GT -> other then the 256MB. I do see a number of reviews say that the GTS is not quite as good as the GT - even though the GTS is newer.

Thoughts on the:
1) Galaxy GeForce 8800GT 600MHZ 512MB 1.8GHZ DDR3 OR
2) EVGA E-GEFORCE 8800GT Superclocked 650MHZ 512MB DDR3?

Also, I went with the Antec P182 case. The case looks awesome and seems to be built for an HTPC build. Super quiet and a beautiful gun metal black. Interesting configuration though.

Finally, I went with the FSP Fortron 800W power supply. I will probably load this up with a bunch of HDs and a little more power if I want to go SLI. Cost was about the same as the one you spec'd. Guy at the shop was saying the case will keep the heat away from the Mobo so no worries about extra temps.

Machine is primary going to be used for movies and music. The Wife bought me a Denon 3808CI and a Sanyo Z5 (with 106: screen) for Xmas - so I am shopping for an HTPC and Speakers :)

Feedback would be appreciated.

IG

mijoeldotor

12-24-07, 07:12 PM

I just fired up my Oppo, so I have to make te move to the htpc more quikly than estimated.
So, going for a low end htpc,here is my dilemma (because I prefer AMD cpu and the thread only mention it in micro ATX low end):
1-the cheapest way is an on board GPU. If a go for the Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2 mobo ($120) what CPU should I use in order to play HDDVD? I'm planning to buy the X box drive. I've read some post in this forum and its not clear for me if it possible to do that with an ob gpu. I can find the AMD 5000+ at $178 here, and the 6000+ $275.
2- Going for a video card: I can find the Sapphire ATI 2600pro at$160. What's the minimun cpu for my porpouse? An AMD 4200+ at $110 is ok or 4400+ at $130?
My trade of is buying my first point if the cpu price is less that what i have to spend on a lesser cpu+ video card of my second point.
Thanks

renethx

12-25-07, 02:29 AM

renethx

12-25-07, 02:37 AM

It seems that many prefer Antec P182 to Cooler Master COSMOS 1000. Yeah, P182 is a good (better?) alternative.

renethx

12-25-07, 03:07 AM

Some news on MCP78 (GeForce 8-Series motherboard GPU for AMD) and RS780 (AMD 780G):

- OCWorkBench - AMD RS780 & NVIDIA MCP78 mainboard photos leaked on net (December 24, 2008) (http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?%20threadid=69661) (Colorful MCP78S, SUPOX RS780)

- OCWorkBench - MCP78 benchmark results leaked (December 25, 2008) (http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?%20threadid=69665) (SOYO MCP78)

- Expreview.com - NVIDIA nForce MCP78S sneak peek (December 25, 2007) (http://en.expreview.com/?p=141)

Both MCP78 boards are ATX. 3DMark06 score with Vista is 774, better than GeForce 7150 (Intel), Geforce 7050 (AMD) and AMD 690G (AMD). MCP78 will be officially announced on January 28, 2008.

Krally

12-25-07, 11:57 AM

Could someone please help me clarify: If I were to use an Intel G965 and say a ATI HD 2600 XT I would end up getting 7.1 Ch. 24-bit LPCM over HDMI through the video card?

BTW, thanks for the great guide, it's been a great resource so far for helping me pick out components to suit my needs on what will be my first HTPC build.

renethx

12-25-07, 12:02 PM

archibael

12-25-07, 12:08 PM

renethx is, as usual, spot on.

There is a G35 board (ASUS P5E-V HDMI) which claims to support both integrated HDMI and a discrete card (in XP, over PCIe x4). I've not seen anyone who's attempted to get it to work, yet, but in theory if you're playing video over the ATI and audio over integrated it should function.

mijoeldotor

12-25-07, 09:57 PM

With onboard video you may have to overclock even 5000+ for smooth playback. But then you may want to buy 4400+ 2.3GHz and overclock it. That's the cheapest way. There is no guarantee that 4400+ overclocks well, say, to 3.0GHz, however.

Thanks, Renethx.
I´ve read about AMD 5000+ overclocked to 3.0 ghz. If this works ok, I gess is not smart going for a separate video card for my use, I will only use it for video, not games. This way I´d pay $120 mobo+ $180 cpu= $300.
Just in case I decided to go for the 2600 pro ( I prefer this one because I have a 720p DLP pj, and I´ve read some people is having overscan issues with nvidia gpus) . Is an AMD 4200+ enough?. This budget is $110 cpu+ $160 gpu+ $ 120 non defined mobo = $390.

I will add a 500 GB HD and 2GB ram.
I can not find here Antec cases. I can find extremely expensive horizontal Thermaltake's or ATX standard ones. A 450W psu included is ok?

renethx

12-26-07, 02:59 AM

Thanks, Renethx.
I´ve read about AMD 5000+ overclocked to 3.0 ghz. If this works ok, I gess is not smart going for a separate video card for my use, I will only use it for video, not games. This way I´d pay $120 mobo+ $180 cpu= $300.
Just in case I decided to go for the 2600 pro ( I prefer this one because I have a 720p DLP pj, and I´ve read some people is having overscan issues with nvidia gpus) . Is an AMD 4200+ enough?. This budget is $110 cpu+ $160 gpu+ $ 120 non defined mobo = $390.

I will add a 500 GB HD and 2GB ram.
I can not find here Antec cases. I can find extremely expensive horizontal Thermaltake's or ATX standard ones. A 450W psu included is ok?
4200+ is enough unless HW acceleration does not work somehow, and 450W PSU is good enough.

siwon

12-26-07, 11:14 PM

hey all i've read this forum many times and the info is awsome but i finally joined so I could post that i'm building a htpc system, and i just want to say this forum and especially this thread has been awsome reading.

now i got caugth up in a boxing day rush today and i bought what i think would be a good all around htpc system but with a bit of gaming as well even though i'm not much of a gamer but here we go

MB- gigabyte x38-DQ6
ram-reaper hpc heatpipe pc26400 2gig dual channel 4-4-4 kit
cpu- intel quad core Q6600 BX80562Q6600SLACR

antek server case and antek PS 500watt, nothing fancy

have not chosen a good vid card yet, so i'll put my 9200 in for now until a good HD card gets cheaper.

was thinking of going cheaper but then I thought man my asus board gave me 7 great years and is still kicking with linux on it running a slot A AMD cpu at 750mh so if this one lasts that long then its worth the extra money, and hell just enjoy life cause you can't take it with you.LOL

any feedback would be appreciated?

now the tech told me the ram is compatible with this board but I couldn't find any info, please let me know, TY

cacat

12-27-07, 12:29 AM

Just get a fanless 8500 GT, you will be fine. 8600 GT has 32 shader units (vs. 16 in 8500 GT) that affects postprocessing, in particular deinterlacing interlaced AVC material.

Is the 8500 going to be as good as the 8600 for 2 sources of HD recording and playback only or should I wait for the 9xxx series with Gen 3?

how about the 8400? any better getting the 8600 for playback only? the setup will include a HD/Bluray dvd player as well.

no gaming at all and it will paired up with a 3.0Ghz dual core and 2 Gb or ram.

thanks.

renethx

12-27-07, 03:49 AM

siwon

Are you thinking of CrossFire or using a RAID controller card (PCIe x8) in future? If not, GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 is totally a waste of money. P35 is performance-wise as good as and much cheaper than X38. Forget about PCIe 2.0, no real benifit right now. My recommendation is abit IP35 Pro or GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4/DS3P/DS3R/DS3L (depending features you want).

renethx

12-27-07, 03:54 AM

Is the 8500 going to be as good as the 8600 for 2 sources of HD recording and playback only or should I wait for the 9xxx series with Gen 3?

how about the 8400? any better getting the 8600 for playback only? the setup will include a HD/Bluray dvd player as well.

no gaming at all and it will paired up with a 3.0Ghz dual core and 2 Gb or ram.

thanks.

8500 should be fine for you (unless you use Sony Bravia or a rear projection TV).

crazyman101

12-27-07, 10:50 AM

Hi renethx,

I've been hitting your HD-HTPC thread for more of my working hours than I care to admit! :)

I was hoping you'd give your thumb's up to the following build I'll be buying parts for, based on your guide:

Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L (or DS3R)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit
Graphics Card: VisionTek ATI Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB PCI-Express Video Card
HDD: SataII 500GB Western Digital
P/W: Antec Earth Watts 500 Watt supply
Case: Silverstone LC-20M-B
CPU: C2D E6750 2.66Ghz
PVR: Hauppage 1600 with remote and ir blaster

I'm planning on the system doing the following:

- run 24x7 as a PVR (no hidef, though) using BeyondTV software
- playback 1080p x264/h264 mkv's (don't know how to use h/w accelleration so will rely on CPU to do decoding with CCCP?)
- playback of BD and HD ISO's
- connect thru HDMI to Sharp Aquos to play video AND sound (don't know how the various sound formats will be handled, though)
- may fully extend the number of HDD's from 1 to max of 6 (I know the DS3L m/b and p/s only have 4 sata connectors...will have to get splitters when the time comes, I guess?)

Any advice or opinions on the above build and req's is most appreciated!! :)

renethx

12-27-07, 11:28 AM

crazyman101

If you are going with 6 HDDs in future, then you'd better buy DS3R (otherwise you will have to add a SATA host controller later).

Otherwise your system looks fine.

crazyman101

12-27-07, 11:52 AM

Thanks renethx, that sounds like good advice. Your guide has been my definitive source of building this HD HTPC!

Dgephri

12-27-07, 12:04 PM

I see mention of the ADD2 card again, suffering through with a 2600HD Pro myself, and forced to use analog audio onboard my Gigabyte (G33-DS2R something IIRC).

is the ADD2 only useable on P35 or higher? Edit: see now they claim 915 or newer.
Any distributors of them yet? Edit: see now Prolink from other thread.

Does that make it up to HDMI 1.3 spec for the lossless audio?

Is this the one?
PV-CH7315 (N16TDS)-F
http://www.prolink-usa.com/

renethx

12-27-07, 12:43 PM

Dgephri

12-27-07, 12:54 PM

siwon

12-27-07, 01:12 PM

archibael

12-27-07, 01:14 PM

hmm, $43 for lossless audio and single cable hookup like my PS3.

Was reading over the other thread but I don't see any comments on:
Does Vista detect that it has 7.1 hooked up?

If your receiver reports it correctly through EDID.

Does the ADD2 card have any GPU features? What about trying to play something like Portal (steam, orange box) on my HD TV?

Nothing. The ADD2 card is very little other than a couple of SDVO-to-video chips and come capacitors and resistors. The graphics chipset does all the heavy lifting... but its powers are not thrilling on games which require a lot of oomph-- and I say this as someone who works for the company. It's a $5 graphics card solution, and it's much more well suited to video than games. Just my opinion.

My 2600HD Pro does fine, but if getting lossless audio via HDMI means total loss of moderate Gaming options, I want to know going in...

Assume it does. The graphics aren't a complete waste of time and might surprise you, but I don't want to ruin any credibility I still have here by implying you will be completely satisfied with the gameplay.

Edit- Using a left over P5LD2-VM r2.0 (NOT SE) with a C2Duo E6700 and 4X512Meg of RAM + ATI 2600HD Pro w/HDMI adapter into Onkyo 705 to 1080p TV.

Let me check into that one. Without the audio header renethx referred to, you won't get the lossless, and I don't want you to be fooled into buying something which does not improve your situation.

renethx

12-27-07, 01:16 PM

hmm, $43 for lossless audio and single cable hookup like my PS3.

Was reading over the other thread but I don't see any comments on:
Does Vista detect that it has 7.1 hooked up?
My 2600HD Pro only shows stereo in the config window when feeding audio via HDMI device.

Does the ADD2 card have any GPU features? What about trying to play something like Portal (steam, orange box) on my HD TV? My 2600HD Pro does fine, but if getting lossless audio via HDMI means total loss of moderate Gaming options, I want to know going in...

Edit- Using a left over P5LD2-VM r2.0 (NOT SE) with a C2Duo E6700 and 4X512Meg of RAM + ATI 2600HD Pro w/HDMI adapter into Onkyo 705 to 1080p TV.

An ADD2 HDMI card is in essence just a HDMI transmitter. You need an integrated graphics processor (so you can't use P35). Audio is provided from HD Audio Link header that is connected to the chipset's HD Audio controller.

If you look for mild gaming performance as well as lossless audio, go for ASUS P5E-VM HDMI G35 chipset mATX motherboard (i dont' know about Portal, though). HDMI transmitter is integrated and you don't need an ADD2 card.

BTW P5LD2-VM does not have HD Audio Link header. GA-G33-DS3R/GA-G33M-DS2R has it.

Dgephri

12-27-07, 01:59 PM

aw, bummer. My gigabyte mobo is my gaming rig w/8800Ultra, and the Asus leftover is my HTPC rig with the LG combo player and ATI 2600HD in it.

Just about to sell the parts and go buy a standalone HD (or bring the Xbox360 drive back out to the TV room).

As a frequent adopter of early technology (I beta test hardware for a number of gaming manufacturers) the HTPC market sure seems a jumble of "how can we break it" from a hardware standpoint.

Not all BDs play via PowerDVD, Nero 8 is broken IMO, even with ISOs some disks aren't playing on two different systems, you can't shortcut things to streamline them, etc. etc.

Then only thing I find pleasing is shared TB drives over GB network. :) Luckily I have 4.

BTW, thanks for the quick feedback, I just hope they settle out the HD audio/HDMI/HTPC arena in the coming years, along with CableCards.

renethx

12-27-07, 02:01 PM

I had purchased that gigabyte x38-DQ6 board for only 30 bucks more than the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 and I know that with there history the bios updates that It'll be a awsome board.

I would of bought a Abit board but i could not find any where I live, would of had to order it
I checked Memory Compatibility List (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/MemorySupport/motherboard_memory_ga-x38-dq6.pdf) and OCZ Memory Upgrade Configurator (http://configurator.ocztechnology.com/result.asp?mn=GA%2DX38%2DDQ6&modelid=66719), but couldn't confirm the compatibility of OCZ2RPR8002GK with X38-DQ6. You'd better call OCZ.

Now you have wider expandability in future with an extra PCIe x16 slot. :)

soyuppy

12-27-07, 02:57 PM

Hi
I got my htpc up. Built it base on the recommended components from this thread. ended up spending more that originally plan, but oh well :)

My system is as follow:
Front End
CPU: E2180 Conroe 2.00 GHz
M/B: ASUS P5K-VM mATX
Cooler: CoolMaster Hyper L3. Got this accidentally when try to eliminate the noise that originally encountered. Heatsink and fan from CPU would have worked just fine. But I got it from CompUSA and all sales are final.
Mem: 2x1 GB OCZ Platinum DDR2-800 PC2-6400
Case: Antec Fusion V2 Black /w 480 W PSU. The brushed black face plate is very nice, but the VFD is crap.
HDD: Maxtor PATA-133 300 GB
DVD: LG GGC-H20L BLU-RAY HD-DVD Reader BD-ROM 6X HD DVD-ROM 3X DVD+-RW 16X8X6 DL 4X Black SATA
GPU: XFX 8500 GT 256 MB
PCI Audio: RME Digi96/PAD
Input: Logitech DiNovo Edge - Bluetooth Keyboar and Mouse combo
OS: WinXP SP2
TV: Mits WD-65833 65" DLP

Back End - Dell SC440 Server
E2160 1.8 GHz, 2x1GB Ram
1+TB (4x300-GB Seagate SATA II) through Linux (FC6) LVM

A couple of Notes:
1. Tried to OC the E2180. FSB=333 and Multiplier=9, VCore=1.425 as suggested by AnadTech. Everything seem to run fine. The new clock speed shows up on the POST detail message, but the CPU-Z show the original clock speed. Not sure who to believe now
2. Can't seem to get resolution right with the DLP TV. With PC 1080p, all 4 edges on the screen get cut off. I can't even get to the task bar
3. Having so much stability problems:
Try to adjust any resolution results in numerous blue screen
Play BD (Pirates) using PDVD and blue screen bomb several times at different chapter
I'm not sure where how to trouble shoot these blue screen problem. is it the LG drive? PDVD? nVidia driver(XFX cards?). All HW components are updated with the latest driver. Even XP SP2 has all the latest and greatest.

Heffty

12-27-07, 03:17 PM

At this point I am putting the final touches on my Theatre. I am now considering the LG HD-DVD/Blu-ray Combo Drive (its on sale this week) to complete my Theatre and I need to buy some wires.

Pertanent computer specs:
E6600 Dual Core w 2G OCZ 6400 Ram
8800GTS 640mb
Asus P5N-E SLI Motherboard
Windows XP Home

The video will be connected directly from my 8800GTS to the second of two HDMI connections on my 42" Panasonic TH42PZ77 1080p Plasma TV via a 30 foot DVI to HDMI cable. The Audio will be connected via a 30 foot RCA cable from the 'S/PDIF out' on my motherboard to the 'coaxial digital in' on my Panasonic SA-HE75 Reciever. I have yet to buy either cable but will likely do so within the next few days from monoprice.

What I'm most curious to know is if this setup will work at 1080p (ie no downgrading because of connection issues) and still run with 5.1 surround sound.

renethx

12-27-07, 03:26 PM

soyuppy

1. Run SuperPI (http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=36). If it finishes faster, your CPU is overclocked. EIST (Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology) is working at idle (333MHz x 6 = 2.0GHz)?

2. I am sorry to hear that. NVIDIA and DLP TV seem to not work together. Have you looked at Official Mitsubishi WD XX833 Owners Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=899744)? I don't know if it's helpful or not.

renethx

12-27-07, 03:49 PM

Heffty

12-27-07, 04:17 PM

Valnar

12-27-07, 05:32 PM

Does anyone know when the rest of the Intel G35 boards will come out? I'm looking out for the Gigabyte GA-G35M-DS2R

-Robert

HappyFunBoater

12-27-07, 05:46 PM

crazyman101

If you are going with 6 HDDs in future, then you'd better buy DS3R (otherwise you will have to add a SATA host controller later).

Otherwise your system looks fine.

One big advantage of a plug in RAID card is that five years from now when you want to replace your motherboard/CPU/memory/etc., but keep your storage intact, is that you can re-use that RAID card and be 99% assured that the RAID will still be recognized. (The other 1% is for the RAID card not supporting the new motherboard, which "shouldn't" be a problem.) With a new RAID-capable motherboard you'll have to be sure to get the exact same RAID stack otherwise you'll probably have to rebuild your array and restore the data from backup. Even if you buy the same brand motherboard you can't be assured that the RAID stacks are compatible. RAID cards are more expensive, but will typically be faster and will ensure compatibility down the road.

Endless G

12-27-07, 06:20 PM

Does anyone know when the rest of the Intel G35 boards will come out? I'm looking out for the Gigabyte GA-G35M-DS2R

-Robert

Same as well!!!

cacat

12-27-07, 06:24 PM

I am curious what you guys run as software. I am 95% in the MythUbuntu camp right now. XP? Vista? other flavors?

soyuppy

12-27-07, 07:01 PM

soyuppy
EIST (Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology) is working at idle (333MHz x 6 = 2.0GHz)?

Thanks for the tip renethx. That was exactly the symptom. idle at 333MHz x6. When I cranked it up running stress test, the CPU did go to 333x9, essentially making it at 3.00GHz!!! as it should. I stressed test it for 10 min. CPU util went to 100% and temp peaked at 58C. Is this still OK? What is an acceptable range of temp for the CPU? I want to see if I can push it a bit more....just to get the last Hz :)

soyuppy

12-27-07, 07:09 PM

8500 should be fine for you (unless you use Sony Bravia or a rear projection TV).
Hi Renethx,
With rear project TV like DLP, would it make a different to consider the 8600 or higher or 2600 XT or higher? I'm still having some problem with configuring the resolution of my DLP TV with the 8500. I'm wondering if I should go to 8600 or swap to ATI 2600 XT.

renethx

12-28-07, 03:32 AM

Yeah I suppose in general I'd just like to know if this LG Optical Drive fed to my reciever via a cheap monoprice.com 30 foot DVI/HDMI cable would look the same on my TV as if I had an actual HDDVD or BR player sitting under my Television.

AND, I was also double checking to see if the rest of my set up was up to par.
PQ from a NVIDIA card is on a par with an actual BD/HD DVD player as long as it works. But I am not sure of 30' cables. Maybe you'd better start a thread concerning this point.

renethx

12-28-07, 04:47 AM

soyuppy

There is two types of temperature:

- Case Temperature aka CPU Temp: the temperature measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader.

- Temperature Junction aka Core Temp: the temperature of each core.

Each processor has its own Thermal Specification (the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor). That of E2180 is 73.2°C (http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLA8Y#). Perhaps you are safe at CPU Temp below 70°C. Core Temp could be higher (say 80°C). A good article is:

Core 2 Quad and Duo Temperature Guide (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/221745-29-core-quad-temperature-guide)

renethx

12-28-07, 05:31 AM

Hi Renethx,
With rear project TV like DLP, would it make a different to consider the 8600 or higher or 2600 XT or higher? I'm still having some problem with configuring the resolution of my DLP TV with the 8500. I'm wondering if I should go to 8600 or swap to ATI 2600 XT.
You'd better off with an ATI card for DLP unless you can turn off overscan with your DLP.

crazyman101

12-28-07, 11:36 AM

Renethx, I'm switching to the DS3R for the 8 Sata connections--makes sense, thx. Two questions though:

1) Will my Antec EA-500 p/s be okay to handle a C2D 6750 (possibly o/c'd to 3.2ghz) system and 6 HDD's?

2) The EA-500 has power for 4 Sata's ... are there splitters available to have two drives share the same power connector? Is that okay to do?

crazyman101

If you are going with 6 HDDs in future, then you'd better buy DS3R (otherwise you will have to add a SATA host controller later).

Otherwise your system looks fine.

renethx

12-28-07, 12:21 PM

Renethx, I'm switching to the DS3R for the 8 Sata connections--makes sense, thx. Two questions though:

1) Will my Antec EA-500 p/s be okay to handle a C2D 6750 (possibly o/c'd to 3.2ghz) system and 6 HDD's?

2) The EA-500 has power for 4 Sata's ... are there splitters available to have two drives share the same power connector? Is that okay to do?

500W is more than enough for 6 HDDs. Use molex 4pin male to two 15pin SATA Power Cable (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123119).

Valnar

12-28-07, 01:50 PM

Does anyone know when the rest of the Intel G35 boards will come out? I'm looking out for the Gigabyte GA-G35M-DS2R

-Robert

Nevermind. I'll have to stick it out with my old P4 2.8Ghz Northwood a little longer. I can't see building a G35 machine right now when the G45 chipset will do this. (http://bp3.blogger.com/_RQy6cQPHSjc/R1VwNnn-NWI/AAAAAAAAAog/vyda1WqXXig/s1600-h/news_intel4sq220080111_full.jpg) I realize this is old news, but the G45 will have hardware MPEG2 and H.264 decoding. It will also have HDMI and HDCP directly.

I could be wrong, and we'll have to wait and see, but I assume the hardware acceleration headaches will be less with Intel than ATI and NVidia. And even if I have to wait a better driver release, there is always the C2D CPU to fall back on. I'm okay with a company making a faulty graphics driver that doesn't accelerate certain files properly. ATI and NVidia do that too. I'm not okay with them making drivers that actually corrupt the video or cause random reboots. I've seen both with ATI and NVidia - never with Intel.

-Robert

Endless G

12-28-07, 02:09 PM

Nevermind. I'll have to stick it out with my old P4 2.8Ghz Northwood a little longer. I can't see building a G35 machine right now when the G45 chipset will do this. (http://bp3.blogger.com/_RQy6cQPHSjc/R1VwNnn-NWI/AAAAAAAAAog/vyda1WqXXig/s1600-h/news_intel4sq220080111_full.jpg) I realize this is old news, but the G45 will have hardware MPEG2 and H.264 decoding. It will also have HDMI and HDCP directly.

I could be wrong, and we'll have to wait and see, but I assume the hardware acceleration headaches will be less with Intel than ATI and NVidia. And even if I have to wait a better driver release, there is always the C2D CPU to fall back on. I'm okay with a company making a faulty graphics driver that doesn't accelerate certain files properly. ATI and NVidia do that too. I'm not okay with them making drivers that actually corrupt the video or cause random reboots. I've seen both with ATI and NVidia - never with Intel.

-Robert

Is that the reasoning for all the MB makers suspend the release for the G35 Chipset?!??!

But it is not until 2008 Q2 until it releases?!

iannecj

12-28-07, 02:56 PM

renethx

12-28-07, 04:21 PM

iannecj

So mb and PSU are supposed to be OK. The remaining parts are memory and video card.

Memory:

Download Memtest86 (http://www.memtest86.com/) (ISO image; go to "Free Download") and create a bootable disc. Turn off PSU and insert one stick of memory to the mb (make sure it is seated firmly). Clear CMOS (see your mb manual how to do it). Start your system and go to BIOS Setup to load factory defaults (select Load Optimized Defaults). Then restart the system and run Memtest86. Usually a single pass (takes about 10-15 min) consisting of eight individual tests is enough to detect errors. Remove it and test the other stick in the same way. Do this test with the GIGABYTE mb. Even if the memory sticks are fine, incompatibility could be a cause.

Video card:

Perhaps the only way to test it is use it in a system that is known to be working. Or if you have a spare video card, use it with the system and see the problem occurs.

If both memory and video card are fine, then ... I don't know. Maybe somebody else can help you.

renethx

12-28-07, 05:51 PM

PConline posted two previews on GeForce 9200 and nForce 730a (MCP78U) chipset:

- 低端显卡危机来临!最强整合主板MCP78全球首发评测 (http://www.pconline.com.cn/diy/main/reviews/0712/1189121.html)

- 请叫我集成显卡!MCP78真实3D图形性能对比评测 (http://www.pconline.com.cn/diy/main/reviews/0712/1192656.html)

3D performance is very good, even better than Intel G35 (the current best IGP in 3D performance).

http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0712/25/1192656_071224mcp78_16_thumb.jpg

(where MCP68PV is GeForce 7050 PV and nForce 630a chipset.) Hybrid SLI (discrete graphics + integrated graphics) increases the performance of GeForce 8400 by 100%, GeForce 8600 by 25% and GeForce 8800 GTX by a few %. Power consumption at idle will be reduced significantly because the discrete graphics core will be switched off when it's not needed (Power Saving mode). BTW AMD will also introduce Hybrid CrossFire, but it works only with newer graphics cards (only with Radeon HD 3450/3470 initially).

http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0711/09/1152202_20070731104417860_thumb.jpg

HD video playback performance by PureVideo HD Gen 3 is still unknown because of a driver problem ("Hardware Acceleration" is greyed out).

http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0712/25/1192656_071224mcp78_21_thumb.jpg http://img3.pconline.com.cn/pconline/0712/25/1192656_071224mcp78_22_thumb.jpg

PureVideo HD Gen 3 supports VC-1 hardware decode. But don't expect 24-bit/96 kHz HDMI audio!

Summary of specifications is here.

独家首发：6大K10平台混合SLI版MCP78 (http://www.92diy.com/html/guide/200712152111.html) is introducing six MCP78 motherboards: BIOSTAR (映泰; ATX), ONDA (昂达; mATX), SOYO (梅捷; ATX), SUPOX (超磐手; ATX), AIC (翔升; ATX), GALAXY (影驰; mATX). Four out of six are ATX! (Reminds me of nForce2 IGP.) None of them except BIOSTAR will be available in US, however.

Endless G

12-28-07, 06:38 PM

It seems to be good for HTPC usage!!!!

iannecj

12-28-07, 09:04 PM

Problem is:

On 6 of 10 posts, I get black screen, num lock wont light even if pushed, no beep, however, fans do spin up and power led is on.

Called Gigabyte on MB, they said RMA MB and PS. I did and got 2 new ones from Newegg.

Problem still occurs. Even when MB is out of case with just memory, CPU/CPU Fan, and video card.

When it does post, it works flawlessly.

One note, I am a novice, and have not done much with bios settings.

Have I missed a key configuration change?

The only things I have changed were to enable RAID in bios and up the DDR2 voltage to +.4 (I guess that is 2.2V).

Help...warranty is running out....

Chris Iannello

Parts list:
I have GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R, Intel Pentium E2180 Allendale 2.0GHz, GIGABYTE GV-NX85T256H GeForce 8500GT 256MB, CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W, Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864AA804, Case is Silverstone CW02B.
Thanks Renethx!!!

It turned out to be the videocard (found out when I traded cards with another system). I have seen numerous posts with this problem but no one had mentioned the video card as a possible culprit.

As an aside, gigabyte tech support had been terrible on this issue with me. They keep referring to their standard playbook and blame the power supply or ram.

Turns out both where fine.

Thanks again...

Valnar

12-28-07, 11:03 PM

Thanks Renethx!!!

It turned out to be the videocard (found out when I traded cards with another system). I have seen numerous posts with this problem but no one had mentioned the video card as a possible culprit.

As an aside, gigabyte tech support had been terrible on this issue with me. They keep referring to their standard playbook and blame the power supply or ram.

Turns out both where fine.

In defense of Gigabyte, their motherboard was not the issue so it was not their problem to fix. Based on the facts you posted, that problem usually is caused by RAM or power supply (or motherboard). Most would have come to the same conclusion.

Glad you got it sorted out though. Troubleshooting a sticky problem like that is time consuming and not fun.

-Robert

dj4monie

12-29-07, 02:17 AM

Gigabyte and well as several Memory makers have list of RAM that will work with picky motherboards. Since Gigabyte boards lend themselves to slight Overclocking, the fact you need stable RAM is even more important.

The Kingston RAM I have is ValueRam however its the Approved list of RAM for this AMD 690 chipset.

Renethx -

Thank You for the work you put in this guide, I read it quite a bit before I built my new mid tower (yes Mid Tower, I want SPACE for a hot video card among other things...) I pretty much copied Low End Build #1, however I think you sell the 64x2 series a bit short. The Black Edition 5000+ is on terms with many of Intel's faster stock clock CPU's when the BE is Overclocked, which is desgned to do.

I run mine at 3.1Ghz currently and it rock solid, temps are 40 at idle with a Masscool OEM style CPU cooler and two case fans, both set on low.

Has never gone over 47c while watching HDTV and running Prime95

I think I will upgrade to the recommended Ninja Mini and see if I can get 3.4Ghz out it. Some have gone as high as 3.6Ghz with watercooling.

Great budget system, I shall be at 3GB in dual channel mode after the new year.

zicoz

12-29-07, 11:19 AM

renethx

12-29-07, 11:47 AM

What AM2 CPU would you suggest for my ECS KA3 MVP mobo if I want to play back 1080p mkv files with 10000kbit bitrate? I'm currently using a Athlon 2800+ and that's ok for 720p, but for 1080p it either skips alot or the audio gets out of sync (depends on the codec).

Or should I just go for a new mobo aswell?

No you don't have to buy a new mb. What you need is just a powerful processor. Perhaps Athlon X2 4800+ 2.5GHz or 5000+ 2.6GHz (Black Edition or not) (both Brisbane core) is enough.

Nima

12-30-07, 03:53 AM

renethx

12-31-07, 05:22 AM

Hi,

if I wanted to purely use software decoding for HD/BR Playback (using a Q6600) a build graphic card would suffice wouldn't it? Are there built in solutions with direct HDMI out? Is the signal quality/strength of a built in solution worse than a single graphic card?

TIA

If you mean G33/G35, HD playback should be fine with Q6600. I haven't tested MCP73 with Q6600 (I have both though). Some mb with HDMI are:

GIGABYTE GA-G33M-S2H
ASUS P5E-VM HDMI
Most GeForce 7100/7150 (MCP73) mbs

Onboard video is fine unless you want a better HD HQV score.

brandj5

12-31-07, 02:27 PM

AMD RS780 have 15-20% better performance than NVIDIA MCP78S in 3Dmark05 and 3Dmark06

Source:
my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=424925#post424925

(unable to post links yet)

renethx

12-31-07, 04:49 PM

The original article:

DIGITIMES - AMD has upper hand in next IGP chipset battle with Nvidia, according to motherboard makers (December 31, 2007) (http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20071231PD208.html).

AMD's RS780 and Nvidia's MCP78 IGP chipsets are scheduled to go head-to-head in the first quarter of 2008, however, performance of the MCP78S is reportedly below that of the RS780, while the higher-end MCP78U is causing issues due to its higher thermal dissipation giving AMD the advantage over the chipset battle, according to sources at motherboard makers.

The RS780 is reported to have 15-20% better performance than the MCP 78S in 3DMark 05 and 06 tests, while the higher-end MCP 78U cannot function normally with the original passive northbridge heatpipe due to the higher core frequencies of the graphics engine. Adopting a larger heatpipe or fan will cause costs to rise significantly, pointed out the sources. Nvidia is still struggling with the problem, they added.

Additionally, motherboard makers have not yet taken delivery of MCP78 chipset supplies, which means that the original launch schedule of motherboards might have to be postponed back to the end of January or beginning of February, noted the sources.

On the other hand, motherboard makers have already finished preparations for their RS780 motherboard launches and will be ready to ship in January 23 next year.

AMD has also fixed an issue with the SB700 southbridge caused by a malfunction of the internal clock generator. Although motherboard makers will need to add an external one to solve the problem for now, AMD has notified its partners that the issue will be fixed in an updated SB710 chipset, added the sources.

Nvidia declined to comment on this report saying it cannot comment on unannounced products. AMD did not respond by the time of publication.

I guess RS780 is equivalent to MCP78U in 3D performance. RS780 is manufactured in 65nm process and power consumption is very good. It initially supports Hybrid CrossFire with only a limited number of graphics card (HD 3450/3470). SB700/710 does not support RAID 5.

Gav

01-01-08, 05:39 AM

renethx

01-01-08, 06:38 AM

Gav

Not sure about KDF-60XBR950, but in general ATI cards work much better with a rear projection TV. Basically the only difference between ATX and mATX is the number of expansion slots. Performance depends almost entirely on the chipset.

toddklost

01-02-08, 11:50 AM

I have an ATI Sapphire X1600 Pro AGP (says its "HDCP-ready") with a Westinghouse 42" 1080P (HDCP compliant),

I have the LG combo Blu Ray/HD DVD drive with PowerDVD 7.3.3319f. I have a DVI to HDMI cable and the software will not run, saying its Digital but not HDCP compliant.

I can run the Movies with AnyDVD HD running, but thats not what I want and the lastest PowerDVD now detects AnyDVD HD and will not let you play Blu Ray.

Question, will a later ATI card like the 3870 work with this configuration?

EDIT, further question: is a DVI-to-HDMI cable HDCP compliant? perhaps the x1600 is HDCP-ready but does not contain the HDCP-chip, like the new 3850/3870? Has anyone got this config with HDCP working through this cable using the latest ATI cards?

renethx

01-02-08, 06:43 PM

I have an ATI Sapphire X1600 Pro AGP (says its "HDCP-ready") with a Westinghouse 42" 1080P (HDCP compliant),

I have the LG combo Blu Ray/HD DVD drive with PowerDVD 7.3.3319f. I have a DVI to HDMI cable and the software will not run, saying its Digital but not HDCP compliant.

I can run the Movies with AnyDVD HD running, but thats not what I want and the lastest PowerDVD now detects AnyDVD HD and will not let you play Blu Ray.

Question, will a later ATI card like the 3870 work with this configuration?
First of all there is no AGP version of the latest ATI cards (HD 3850/3870). PowerColor is introducing HD 3850 AGP (http://www.tcmagazine.com/comments.php?shownews=17418&catid=2) soon, but it is unknown if it works. The current HD 2400/2600 AGP has a serious driver problem (http://www.tcmagazine.com/comments.php?shownews=17418&catid=2).

demon2204

01-02-08, 06:54 PM

Hi,

I have quite a few downloaded 720p mkvs and even a couple of 1080p (8.5GB) mkv files (encoded with x264).

I'm thinking of upgrading my HTPC from a P4 2.8 (which can't handle 720p files in Vista) to an AMD Athlon X2 BE-2400 Brisbane 2.3GHz, on a new AMD motherboard with integrated H264 for when I get an actual blu-ray/hd-dvd drive - I know it doesn't help for the actual x264 stuff...that took a while to find out with an x1600 card! :) I like 45W CPU because it runs cool and quite so I won't need another fan, but I realize I can get a 65W 4800+ for the same price...

So, my question is would the Brisbane 2.3GHz be able to handle my downloaded 720p and 1080p content in Windows Vista (I'd also get 2/3 GB ram)? I like Vista because of the Media Center for pictures, music and videos.

renethx

01-02-08, 07:06 PM

demon2204

I think 2.3GHz is good to marginal (depending on a file). Be prepared to overclock it (BE-2400 overclocks pretty well).

iannecj

01-02-08, 10:39 PM

What is too hot for the P35?

I am not overclocking my E2180, it is at 2Ghz.

Under load, (orthos blend test), my tbalancer thermal probes say top of NB heatsink (where digital probe is mounted) is reaching 62C.

In speedfan, the mysteriously labeled Temp1 aka system temp in EasyTune 5 reads lower (like 55C). Assuming this is also NB temp, would you expect this?

Tbalancer is set to alarm at 60C where is sets all fans to 100%, can I adjust this to 65C?

Another possibility is to calibrate Tbalncer digtal probe to speedfan Temp1, any ideas?

Thanks,

Chris

etcarroll

01-02-08, 10:41 PM

Well it's post-Xmas, time to get started. I see NewEGG has Intel open box P35 mobos for $75, would it be worth waiting till Q2 for P45 mobos to get 'substantially' more improvements/features over the $75 Intel BLKDP35DPM , or should I just get started?

Rest of my build should be as below, though an nVidia 8600gt at a good price could creep in there.

Edit: Disregard, I already have the ram, and its the wrong voltage for the Intel board.

R -

Thanks for your work, and as a by-product, the excellant feedback you ellicit from the community.

I'm looking to convert my existing HTPC to a digital dictation PC, have already installed Dragon Dictate on it.

I have the week after Xmas off, my wife must work, so I have that week earmarked as rebuild date.

I'm looking to build a high end, no-gaming rig, and will use your suggested build as baseline;

CPU: Core 2 Duo E6750 2.66GHz Socket 775, $194.
CPU Cooler: ZEROtherm BTF90, $30 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 Intel P35 chipset ATX, $178. An alternative is abit IP35 Pro, $179.
Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit, $50 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 3850 (any brand), $179.
HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA, $110.
PSU: Corsair HX520W, $100.
Case: SilverStone Grandia SST-GD01B-MXR, $229.

My questions,

- does anyone know what sales may be coming up in next 4 weeks that may lessen cost
- I will reuse my wifi card, 320gig hd, (I have a 2TB WHS box for storage), and LC03 case, will the 400watt Silverstone psu be enough, or is an upgrade called for?
- looking at the the LG dual drive for HDDVD/BR, does that impact anything?
- will substituting the following be a problem?:
another GPU consideration is the asus 8500gt (link)
256mb ddr3 and 600mhz clock for $80

Thanks,

Gene

dazzo17

01-03-08, 01:42 AM

Renethx in another post you said how bad the phenom processors were and recomended Intel but you now have a phenom in the premium 2 build. Is the black edition different from the others and a better buy than c2d 6750?

There are good reasons why Phenom 9500/9600 is so cheap. Not only they are far inferior to Q6600 but also:

The Tech Report – Chip problem limits supply of quad-core Opterons (December 3, 2007)
The Tech Report – Erratum degrades Phenom 9500, 9600 performance (December 3, 2007)
The Tech Report – Phenom TLB patch benchmarked (December 6, 2007)
Quote:
The erratum is present in all AMD quad-core processors up to the current B2 revision. AMD has said a revision B3 is in the works and expected in Q1. One source told TR that large quantities of B3 chips might not be available until the end of Q1.

Quote:
The potential for instability with the TLB erratum can be corrected via BIOS-based workaround, but multiple sources have suggested the BIOS fix involves a substantial performance hit. AMD has publicly estimated the performance penalty for the BIOS fix could be around 10%, and one source pegged the penalty at 10-20%. AMD has acknowledged that the TLB erratum particularly affects virtualization, and industry sources say the performance hit from the fix may be most severe with virtualization, as well. Server administrators responsible for virtualized environments will probably want to wait for the B3-rev CPUs before upgrading.

Quote:
Across every test we ran, the difference between the Phenom 9600 with and without the TLB patch averages out to 19.8%. However, if we rule out the synthetic memory tests and consider only the application tests, that difference drops to 13.9%.

As we've reported elsewhere, AMD does plan to fix the TLB erratum with a new revision of its quad-core chip due some time in mid-to-late Q1 of 2008. Once the new revision is available, the Phenom 9500 and 9600 will be replaced by the 9550 and 9650, with the -50 suffix denoting the updated silicon and higher performance. Most users will want to wait until those new Phenom models are available before paying full price for a Phenom processor or a system based on one.

In general, if you plan on buying a Phenom processor, you'd better wait for a hardware fix in the B3 revision (9550, 9650, 9700, 9900).

renethx

01-03-08, 03:01 PM

renethx

01-03-08, 03:25 PM

Renethx in another post you said how bad the phenom processors were and recomended Intel but you now have a phenom in the premium 2 build. Is the black edition different from the others and a better buy than c2d 6750?
Unfortunately Black Edition is still B2 and has TLB erratum. Well, Phenom is a quad-core processor and is faster than Core 2 Duo E6750 in many (quad-core optimized) applications at default speed. Phenom with AMD 790FX chipset is the only solution for CrossFire workstation (X38 can't compete with 790FX).

venno

01-04-08, 03:31 AM

Greetings from Australia !

I won a bare bones shuttle SG33G5 in a competition and am considering turning it into a htpc for 1080p TV and later Bluray/HDdvd playback using a combo drive. I have the following spare parts lying around I can use:

msi 6600GT pcie vga card
1Gb dual channel Geil ddr2 800 ram kit
pioneer 111d dvd burner
dvico dvb-t lite tv HD tv tuner pci
WD 320Gb sata hdd

My questions then are:

1. Should I use the onboard gma3100 graphics via hdmi and try to get video/audio down one cable, or the 6600gt and spdif (I have a 70" sony sxrd rptv and a sony 5300 reciever) ?

2. If I upgrade to a combo HD drive could I get lossless audio working to my reciever if pdvd ends up supporting it?

3. Is my ram enough ?

4. What lga775 cpu should I get to cover myself for both HD tv and bluray/hdvd?

Cheers in advance, this is a great forum :)

skeeterfood

01-04-08, 02:31 PM

Gav
Not sure about KDF-60XBR950, but in general ATI cards work much better with a rear projection TV.

Could you point me to somewhere this is discussed? I've been running a GeForce7600GS (AGP) in my current HTPC with my Sony KDS55A2000 SXRD rear projection TV and the Resize Desktop function of the drivers works great to get the desktop within the visible area of the screen. For my planned HD capable HTPC I had been planning on an 8500/8600, but now I'm not so sure...

-John

renethx

01-04-08, 08:12 PM

Could you point me to somewhere this is discussed? I've been running a GeForce7600GS (AGP) in my current HTPC with my Sony KDS55A2000 SXRD rear projection TV and the Resize Desktop function of the drivers works great to get the desktop within the visible area of the screen. For my planned HD capable HTPC I had been planning on an 8500/8600, but now I'm not so sure...

-John
There are too many posts about overscan problem with NVIDIA cards. Search this forum with keywords overscan and NVIDIA. I would buy both NVIDIA and ATI cards, test them and sell the one that I don't like.

renethx

01-04-08, 08:22 PM

ES_Revenge

01-04-08, 09:15 PM

[B][COLOR="Red"]Under load, (orthos blend test), my tbalancer thermal probes say top of NB heatsink (where digital probe is mounted) is reaching 62C.

In speedfan, the mysteriously labeled Temp1 aka system temp in EasyTune 5 reads lower (like 55C). Assuming this is also NB temp, would you expect this?

Tbalancer is set to alarm at 60C where is sets all fans to 100%, can I adjust this to 65C?

Another possibility is to calibrate Tbalncer digtal probe to speedfan Temp1, any ideas?

Thanks,

Chris

I'm unsure what tbalancer is, to tell the truth, but the SpeedFan temp you're seeing is likely not the Northbridge temp, but rather a temp somewhere else on the motherboard (the System temp as reported in the BIOS).

I'm not sure if Speedfan can even report the northbridge temperature. I think the only way to get Northbridge temperature is by using Intel's QST/HECI features which will take up 8-16MB of system RAM to function. Compare temperatures to the BIOS setup reporting instead of tbalancer to see if you're not confusing sensors...

I noticed the following in my motherboard BIOS... If I have QST set to off, the motherboard BIOS monitoring temps are restricted to CPU and SYS temps on my board (which is a mATX Gigabyte board). That system temperature is the one that co-incides with one of the "other" (non-CPU) temp sensors reported by SpeedFan. However if I set QST to on, reboot and go back into the BIOS, I then see the (G)MCH temperature displayed and yes it can be above 60C pretty easily IIRC. This temperature is not available unless QST is enabled.

Even with QST enabled, SpeedFan doesn't seem to find the MCH temperature anyway (and QST is a waste of RAM IMO, along with the fact that you have to install the HECI driver for it which takes up even more memory). It might be possible for another program (like Everest? but I've never tried it) to find the MCH temp but I've had no success with SpeedFan finding it.

I don't think a 62C MCH is a big deal, though you could put an aftermarket sink and/or fan on it if you're really concerned. I'm sure you'll find the Tmax for it in Intel's spec sheets, if you really need to know what the highest temperature it can run at is...

ES_Revenge

01-04-08, 09:59 PM

An ADD2 HDMI card is in essence just a HDMI transmitter. You need an integrated graphics processor (so you can't use P35). Audio is provided from HD Audio Link header that is connected to the chipset's HD Audio controller.

...

BTW P5LD2-VM does not have HD Audio Link header. GA-G33-DS3R/GA-G33M-DS2R has it.
On the subject of the HD Link header and the ADD2 cards...

Since the ADD2 card only does video related functions over the PCI-e bus (I'm assuming there's no audio here) and takes the audio to combine with the video portion of the signal to form a full A/V HDMI signal, you would think that theoretically it's possible to get the audio portion without the ADD card at all right?

What I'm getting at is, if some manufacturer were willing to make such a device, shouldn't you be able to get DVI video from any video card and then combine it with the audio from the HD Link header and get a full, audio-included, HDMI signal to output to other gear without having to sacrifice a decent graphics card for crappy on-board video? But then I doubt we'd ever see such a peripheral/card released by anyone, unfortunately.

I'm really not sure here but it seems to make some sense that if you can take the video from the onboard combine it with audio from the header and get an HDMI signal, you should be able to do this with any videocard, no?

Then again the SDO/SDI signals of the audio link might have to line up somehow with the video signals in such a way that it could only be done with the on-board video to form a proper TMDS signal? Also I suppose a DVI output (from a videocard) is already a TMDS signal for the display device and you'd have to then be adding the audio to it which might not be ideal or even possible.

However in that case, you would think that videocard manufacturers could implement this (like what ATI has done but using the HD Audio Link header instead of S/PDIF)... Of course it's doubtful given this header only appears on motherboards with onboard video :(

Seems the idea of the link header is good, it just becomes pointless when you're tied to on-board video :(

Karyudo

01-05-08, 02:02 AM

Is getting AC3 5.1 audio to my receiver from the on-board S/PDIF on my new Gigabyte P35-DS4 really this hard, or am I some sort of idiot??

I've lurked in this thread for a while now, and stayed pretty close to many of the recommendations for mobo, proc, memory, video card, etc., so I felt pretty confident I'd have an easy time of putting it all together and getting excellent results.

The part I thought might be hardest -- getting 1080p out over DVI/HDMI -- proved to be a snap! So, brimming with confidence, I went on to get the audio tuned up.

In my naivete, I tried an AVI with AC3 in VLC, and it stuttered like a SOB. Poked around in various fora, and figured out how to make it stop. (Yay, me.)

But no matter what I do (using VLC, MPC, AC3 Filter, and the Realtek HD Audio control panel app thingy), I can't seem to get true 5.1-channel audio out!

Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong? There aren't hardware issues I'm missing, are there?

archibael

01-05-08, 10:03 AM

On the subject of the HD Link header and the ADD2 cards...

Since the ADD2 card only does video related functions over the PCI-e bus (I'm assuming there's no audio here) and takes the audio to combine with the video portion of the signal to form a full A/V HDMI signal, you would think that theoretically it's possible to get the audio portion without the ADD card at all right?

Correct.

What I'm getting at is, if some manufacturer were willing to make such a device, shouldn't you be able to get DVI video from any video card and then combine it with the audio from the HD Link header and get a full, audio-included, HDMI signal to output to other gear without having to sacrifice a decent graphics card for crappy on-board video? But then I doubt we'd ever see such a peripheral/card released by anyone, unfortunately.

The HD Audio Link header is not a proptrietary interface (no more proprietary than HD Audio/Azalia in general, which all modern motherboard audio uses anyway), so, yes, ATI and Nvidia could choose to build their audio solutions around it. For whatever reason, they have chosen not to.

Then again the SDO/SDI signals of the audio link might have to line up somehow with the video signals in such a way that it could only be done with the on-board video to form a proper TMDS signal? Also I suppose a DVI output (from a videocard) is already a TMDS signal for the display device and you'd have to then be adding the audio to it which might not be ideal or even possible.

The simple solution would be to have the syncing and muxing happen on the graphics card (as happens with the ADD2). There's nothing special about the onboard video which makes that easier.

However in that case, you would think that videocard manufacturers could implement this (like what ATI has done but using the HD Audio Link header instead of S/PDIF)... Of course it's doubtful given this header only appears on motherboards with onboard video :(

Actually, there were several Intel P965 (no integrated graphics) boards which had the HDA Link header on them. I think Intel believed "if we build it, they will come"... and no one joined the party.

Crookshank

01-05-08, 11:35 AM

Has any MB with DD Live???

indelible

01-05-08, 02:56 PM

ES_Revenge

01-05-08, 03:45 PM

Has any MB with DD Live???

Probably, but they are few and far between I think.

I know for sure that some boards have DTS-Connect available on them, so DD-Live is probably on some boards as well.

Interestingly some chipsets are not much different but there is a price premium for the ones that do the DTS/DD on-the-fly bit. For example my particular motherboard has an ALC889A audio chipset on it, but there is a variant of my mohterboard which is actually worse overclocking and features-wise, but has HDMI out for the on-board video (mine doesn't) and then an ALC889D audio chipset which has DTS Connect capabilities. Other than the DTS Connect, the chipset is exactly the same I believe. So you do have to look into it a bit.

In any case, yes, there should be boards with DD Live on-board ;)

anybody know if a BFG 7900GT OC has HDCP or is capable of playing HD? I tried four 1080p .mkv (HD x264) files last night and only 2 played smoothly, Shoot'em Up and 2Fast 2 Furious didn't play right, audio went smoothly though. Bourne Supremacy and The Matrix were perfect.
I'm not sure if the 7900 accelerates h.264 at all (check with Nvidia for information about that) but the GPU accelerating video or not does depend on your installed codecs. What codecs/players are you using to play the HD video? Codecs like ffdshow don't seem to use GPU accleration at all, for example (meaning that even if your GPU can accelerate h.264 ffdshow won't use it).

I doubt the 7900GT from BFG has HDCP, but it may--you will have to check with BFG for info on that. I know my friend has a 7900GT (not sure what manufacturer) and it definitely does not. HDCP is more an implementation of the card maker than the GPU it uses.

I'm also running an AMD X2 4200+ with 2gb ram on winXP, Acer EM61SM/EM61PM motherboard, if that helps any. i don't know if the cpu or the videocard is the problem.
That CPU should be cabable of decoding 1080p h.264 I'm pretty sure, so the issue is probably not there. As a side note, a look at your CPU utilisation will tell you if the GPU is being used to accelerate the video...

Often the playback problems that you are talking about (with the hardware you have) is related to the codec(s) you have installed, not the actual hardware. You may just have a codec or codec version installed that isn't working right.

dj4monie

01-05-08, 04:15 PM

Happy New Year! This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me. I've built a few PCs before, mostly gaming machines for my kids. I've been thinking about a HTPC for a while now and was just about done with the research until I visited this forum again (long time lurker).

So after reading all the posts I'm stuck with the following problems:

My TV is a 60" Sony KDF-60XBR950 rear projection LCD native resolution 720p but with superb upscaling to 1080i. It has HDCP compliant DVI input, so it's ready for HD content.I feed the HDMI components to an Atlona 4x1 switcher.

One post mentioned potential overscanning troubles with XBR sets(among others) and NVIDIA cards. Not sure if this applies to my TV, but I would think yes. I have read about methods to fix this issue but the result disables HDCP on the card.

Secondly, I'm a bit ticked about NVIDIA and lack of XP driver support for some popular cards recommended here. The already posted .tomshardware.com/2007/06/08/avivo_vs_purevideo_hd/page11.html
Money quote:

"The Nvidia representatives said the 8500/8600 drivers are not yet decoding H.264 video in Windows XP"

So good luck with those large .mvk taking up to 80% CPU usage. SHEESH! Sure they work great on a Vista machine, but the only person I'd recommend Vista to is my mother-in-law.

I've always been a big NVIDIA advocate and never used an ATI card, but in this situation would it be best to abandon the 8500, or is an updated XP driver just around the corner?
Would ATI also easily correct for overscanning?

Lastly, I intended to build a microATX system, no games, no Nero, no TV recording etc, just A/V playback. How big of a performance hit is mATX compared to standard ATX assuming quality components?

Cheers

a) Building Gamer rigs are really no different than HTPC's. The biggest difference is you don't want loud fans on your video card(s), noisy hard drives or noisy fans or PSU's in your system.

b) You need CPU horsepower until video card/IGP drivers are mature. I say as much as you can afford, I went 5000+ BE, 2.6Ghz, OC'ed to 2.91Ghz (darn Bios update limits my clock multiplier now, any higher its crashes Vista)

c) ATI cards over the years have had superior video quality I don't think that can be argued. Nvidia for awhile had the advantage in mostly stable driver sets and less conflict issues. If you look on the HD2xxx thread, you'll see decoders usually cause PQ issues. Especially the ones designed to give you HD or DXVA hardware acceleration.

No real issues with Vista either, I had reservations as well.

I have no visions of running compressed HD formats (BluRay, HD-DVD, etc), though I have enough CPU HP to do so. My goal was to watch up to 1080i stutter free (mission accomplished). Now if more content ends up on the net @1080p, there's always an HD3850 512mb...

yobo

01-05-08, 04:33 PM

anybody know if a BFG 7900GT OC has HDCP or is capable of playing HD? I tried four 1080p .mkv (HD x264) files last night and only 2 played smoothly, Shoot'em Up and 2Fast 2 Furious didn't play right, audio went smoothly though. Bourne Supremacy and The Matrix were perfect.

I'm also running an AMD X2 4200+ with 2gb ram on winXP, Acer EM61SM/EM61PM motherboard, if that helps any. i don't know if the cpu or the videocard is the problem.

i was just hoping to add a soundcard w/spdif to this rig and turning it from my desktop to an htpc.
I had same situation. I had the evga 7900 GTKO. It has no hdcp. I think the 7900 GTX had hdcp. Just move up to the 8xxx series. If you still want GDDR3 and a fast gpu for gaming you'll have to pony up some money for a 8800 series, but if you just want HDCP go with the evga 256-P2-N741-LR. link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130287&Tpk=256-P2-N741-LR). I have this same card with a similar x2 setup and ram as yours and pdvd plays like butter. Even if you can remove the copy protection you may still need to upgrade to the 8xxx series because of the new HD purevideo features, but not sure. If you really want to wait nvidia is starting to release the 9xxx series.

yeah I'm pretty sure now it's your vc check this out (http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_HD.html). I can attest that with pdvd and purevideo hardware deinterlacing hd content looks better than with plain smart deinterlacing setting. Not so for sd dvd though with pdvd. With sd pixel adaptive smart setting looks best.

renethx

01-05-08, 05:06 PM

Is getting AC3 5.1 audio to my receiver from the on-board S/PDIF on my new Gigabyte P35-DS4 really this hard, or am I some sort of idiot??

In my naivete, I tried an AVI with AC3 in VLC, and it stuttered like a SOB. Poked around in various fora, and figured out how to make it stop. (Yay, me.)

But no matter what I do (using VLC, MPC, AC3 Filter, and the Realtek HD Audio control panel app thingy), I can't seem to get true 5.1-channel audio out!

Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong? There aren't hardware issues I'm missing, are there?
Sorry, I have no clue. Have you tried other sources with AC3 to see if it's a hw problem? I feel it's wrong filter/settings.

renethx

01-05-08, 05:18 PM

Has any MB with DD Live???
From my Excel worksheet: 94708

abit AW9D
abit AW9D-MAX
ASUS P5W DH Deluxe
FOXCONN 975X7AB-8EKRS2H
Intel D975XBX
Intel D975XBX2
MSI 975X Platinum PowerUp Edition

abit AB9
abit AB9 Pro
abit AB9 Wi-Fi
GIGABYTE GA-965P-DQ6
Intel DG965WH
Intel DG965OT

Intel DG33TL
Intel DP35DP
Intel DX38BT

GIGABYTE GA-N680SLI-DQ6 (rev. 1.0)

The following are mobile processor mbs.

abit iL-90MV
AOpen i945GTm-VHL
AOpen i945GMm-HL
ASUS N4L-VM DH

renethx

01-05-08, 05:35 PM

anybody know if a BFG 7900GT OC has HDCP or is capable of playing HD? I tried four 1080p .mkv (HD x264) files last night and only 2 played smoothly, Shoot'em Up and 2Fast 2 Furious didn't play right, audio went smoothly though. Bourne Supremacy and The Matrix were perfect.

I'm also running an AMD X2 4200+ with 2gb ram on winXP, Acer EM61SM/EM61PM motherboard, if that helps any. i don't know if the cpu or the videocard is the problem.

i was just hoping to add a soundcard w/spdif to this rig and turning it from my desktop to an htpc.

BFG NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GT OC 256/512MB PCIe does not support HDCP.

http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr79256gtoce.aspx
http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr79512gtoce.aspx

Playing back mkv fies has nothing to do with HDCP. 7900 GT should be able to play them back smoothly with a proper processor and proper software configuration. Athlon X2 4200+ 2.2GHz may be too slow. Try overclock it, say, to 2.8GHz-3.0GHz. If stuttering is still there, you need to look into video filters.

As your video card does not support HDCP or hardware acceleration, you'd better buy a new card. A bunch of new cards are coming soon (January-February) from both ATI and NVIDIA. (Hardware acceleration does not work with most mkv files, you still need a fast processor.)

indelible

01-05-08, 05:42 PM

BFG NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GT OC 256/512MB PCIe does not support HDCP.

http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr79256gtoce.aspx
http://www.bfgtech.com/bfgr79512gtoce.aspx

Playing back mkv fies has nothing to do with HDCP. 7900 GT should be able to play them back smoothly with a proper processor and proper software configuration. I think Athlon X2 4200+ 2.2GHz is just too slow. Try overclock it, say, to 2.8GHz-3.0GHz.

As your video card does not support HDCP or hardware acceleration, you'd better buy a new card. A bunch of new cards are coming soon from both ATI and NVIDIA. (Hardware acceleration does not work with most mkv files, you still need a fast processor.)

ok, thanks. do you think the card that yobo recommended me would be good enough? Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130287&Tpk=256-P2-N741-LR)
combined with a phenom? Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103226)

my current motherboard doesn't have the ability to overclock, but i'd like to go the cheaper route, either: 4200+ and a new motherboard or just buy a phenom to replace the 4200+.

my friend suggested the phenom, but i'm open to other AMD X2 options.

renethx

01-05-08, 06:30 PM

Yeah, 8500 GT is an excellent choice. If you prefer a fanless model, XFX GeForce 8500 GT PV-T86J-UAHG is very good.

Phenom is now only $190, it's hard to pass it over. Phenom processor (or Intel Core Quad processor) will play whatever movie you throw in smoothly with or without video card's hw acceleration. The only problem is if Acer provides a BIOS supporting Phenom. Perhaps you will end up buying a new mb.

My advice is wait for a new Socket AM2+ motherboard with AMD RS780 or NVIDIA MCP78 chipset. The onboard video (Radeon HD 2400 or GeForce 8400 equivalent) supports HDCP, hw acceleration, HDMI. The price will be less than $100. Try 4200+ (overclocked) with the new mb. If budget permits, throw in Phenom and you will have a perfect HD HTPC.

indelible

01-05-08, 06:43 PM

renethx

01-05-08, 06:49 PM

ok, so with the AMD RS780, I can use my 4200+ and not have to buy a videocard, just use on-board video? If that's the case, then I'll wait for the RS780 to come out.

Yeah, you don't have to buy a video card. Onboard video will be enough for playing back HD movies. You can use your 4200+ with the new mb (Socket AM2+ is backward compatible with Socket AM2).

Crookshank

01-05-08, 10:39 PM

From my Excel worksheet: 94708

Thx :)

gdavis40

01-06-08, 04:29 PM

Phenom is now only $190, it's hard to pass it over.

Where is it $190 ?

renethx

01-06-08, 05:38 PM

Phenom is now only $190, it's hard to pass it over.

Where is it $190 ?

Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103226)

gdavis40

01-06-08, 11:14 PM

thank you

Donny Bahama

01-07-08, 05:32 AM

ES_Revenge

01-07-08, 05:44 AM

Phenom is now only $190, it's hard to pass it over.

Where is it $190 ?
Actually it's pretty easy to pass over. Because the Phenom stinks, lol. And no I'm not "hating" on or needlessly bashing AMD--it's the truth.

The mid-level Phenom (not sure if it's a slower one that's 190 or what but it doesn't matter) is slower at nearly all appications than a stock-clock E6600. Only a handful of apps/situations where four cores are utilised does it outrun it, and that's not by much.

And who runs a E6xxx at stock clock? In fact who runs any Core2 at stock clock? A C2D E6750 is around the same price as the $190 Phenom and it will dust it all over the place (again except quad-core optimised stuff). And then you put like 5mins into a light OC on the C2D and the Phenom can forget about it.

Now you might say, "hey no fair why not OC the Phenom as well".... Well they don't OC so well, whereas Core2s OC well enough that a child could do it and get a decent speed boost from stock. From what I've read and heard any even half-decent OCs on Phenoms, the people are considered "lucky".

An $80 Core2-based Pentium E (Pentium Dual Core) can OC with nearly no effort to 3Ghz+, which will likely run circles around the low-end Phenom.

If you say "hey I don't want to OC though", Phenom is still at a loss as again the similarly priced E6750 will put the Phenom to shame at most things.

And don't even bother comparing any Phenom to even the lowest C2Q because it's over before it started (though yes the Q6600 is a little more money). Four cores the Phenom may be but it doesn't really mean much considering all it is is four A64 cores with newer fabrication--the same A64 which doesn't hold a candle to the Core2.

For an HTPC where four cores are seldome required (and not really desireable from the extra heat/power in most cases) the Phenom is definitely one to pass over, trust me.

Donny Bahama

01-07-08, 06:01 AM

A question about video cards...
In the "My Picks" section of the Nvidia graphics cards, the GIGABYTE GeForce 8500 GT GV-NX85T256H says "passive cooling" but it doesn't say that it takes up two slots. Pictures of it sure make it look like it would, though, and that would be a bad thing for me. Newegg has the ASUS EN8500GT SILENT/HTP/512M (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121091R&ATT=14-121-091R&CMP=OTC-Froogle&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Video+Cards-_-ASUS-_-14121091R) for $73; it's also passively cooled but it looks like it would not take up two slots. Any big disadvantage to this card relative to the Gigabyte card?

Mike Philippens

01-07-08, 09:29 AM

When using the ATI Radeon HD2600, as I understand it, the CPU is not terribly important. So, if I was to assemble a PC consisting of a VIA Epia SN with 1Ghz CPU, would it do as a Mediacenter? I don't want to watch TV or do any recording with it. It is just watching videofiles/listening to MP3. Playing HD content (720p/1080p) must be possible.

What I want is a silent solution. The Epia SN 1Ghz is passively cooled and the Club3D HD2600 is also available as a passively cooled option. The only thing making some noise would be the hard drive, but I think a small Samsung HDD (160Gb) would be enough. I have my media files stored on a NAS somewhere else in the house.

Next question is then obviously which mediacenter to use? Windows XP MCD or Linux Mediacenter?

lorddraco

01-07-08, 11:15 AM

Hi experts...

Need some expert advice, I am new into HTPC (tot not new in PC assembly and such)

I have the intention to have the either of the following.

Option 1.
1. Intel 6550
2. ATI 3850 or 3870 (Powercolor with Zerotherm cooling) --> HDMI to AV
3. P5E-VM - SPDIF (Optical/Coaxial) --> AV

Option 2.
1. Intel 6550
2. ATI 3850 or 3870 --> HDMI to AV
3. Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 - SPDIF (Optical/Coaxial) --> AV

Just wonder if do we really need to have DTS connect or DD feature in the on-board audio to have DTS/DD played over my AV (Denon AVR-2807 in this case)

Cost wise .. I think more effective with Gigabyte if run discreet. If not discreet graphic, P5E-VM is good I think.

Please advice.

skeeterfood

01-07-08, 11:44 AM

There are too many posts about overscan problem with NVIDIA cards. Search this forum with keywords overscan and NVIDIA. I would buy both NVIDIA and ATI cards, test them and sell the one that I don't like.

OK, did some searching and it seems that with 8800 cards and the current drivers you have two mutually exclusive choices:
1) Overscan correction
2) HDCP support

Doh!

See http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2064&p_created=1177972007&p_sid=2GpXtvFi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ 9NCZwX3Byb2RzPTImcF9jYXRzPTYwJnBfcHY9MS4yJnBfY3Y9MS42MCZwX3N lYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmN oX3RleHQ9b3ZlcnNjYW4*&p_li=&p_topview=1 for details.

-John

MurrayW

01-07-08, 12:19 PM

In the next month I am going to be upgrading (well, actually starting from scratch) my 2+ year old HTPC. I have copies of both XP Pro and Vista Ultimate, so spending money on an OS will be about the only thing I don't have to do to "upgrade". I haven't decided on the exact hardware that I will be using, but it will be similar to one of the "high-end" configurations listed in this thread. I'll be playing back DVD's (regular, HD and blueray) and capturing and playing SD and HD TV using hardware TV capture cards.

Any reason not to move to Vista at this point? Are there any clear advantages of Vista vs. XP or vice versa?

thanks,
Murray

renethx

01-07-08, 12:32 PM

In the Low End II (budget microATX) system, I have a question about the GA-73PVM-S2H system board... would the built-in graphics be adequate for SD-DVD playback? (I'm going to have to build my HD-HTPC system slowly/bit-by-bit, and it will probably be a while before I can afford any HD drives.) Also, my first HTPC had an Asus P4PE with a P4 2.4GHz processor. Any chance that processor (and that RAM) could be used (temporarily) with this motherboard?
Playback performance by onboard video (GeForce 7100) + E2200 2.2GHz:

- SD DVD / 720p H.264 files: Excellent.
- 1080p H.264 files: Good to occasional stuttering depending on a file.
- BD / HD DVD (by PowerDVD or Digital Theater): Lots of stuttering. Overclocking can't fix it.

XFX 8500 GT + E2200 2.2GHz is just excellent for every HD material.

Asus P4PE and your P4 2.4GHz processor is Socket 478. The current socket is LG775. So you can't use your P4 processor.

BTW I am right now more inclined to eVGA 112-CK-NF77-A1 than GIGABYTE GA-73PVM-S2H because of a cheaper price, better oc, better features.

renethx

01-07-08, 12:52 PM

renethx

01-07-08, 01:05 PM

When using the ATI Radeon HD2600, as I understand it, the CPU is not terribly important. So, if I was to assemble a PC consisting of a VIA Epia SN with 1Ghz CPU, would it do as a Mediacenter?
Yes.
Next question is then obviously which mediacenter to use? Windows XP MCD or Linux Mediacenter?
I don't know much about Linux. I would say, go with Vista!

renethx

01-07-08, 01:27 PM

Need some expert advice, I am new into HTPC (tot not new in PC assembly and such)

I have the intention to have the either of the following.

Option 1.
1. Intel 6550
2. ATI 3850 or 3870 (Powercolor with Zerotherm cooling) --> HDMI to AV
3. P5E-VM - SPDIF (Optical/Coaxial) --> AV

Option 2.
1. Intel 6550
2. ATI 3850 or 3870 --> HDMI to AV
3. Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 - SPDIF (Optical/Coaxial) --> AV

Just wonder if do we really need to have DTS connect or DD feature in the on-board audio to have DTS/DD played over my AV (Denon AVR-2807 in this case)

Cost wise .. I think more effective with Gigabyte if run discreet. If not discreet graphic, P5E-VM is good I think.

Please advice.
IMO choosing P5E-VM HDMI (btw coaxial only) makes sense only when you try to get lossless 7.1 audio over HDMI. ATI card has its own HDMI audio controller and you don't need onboard audio at all (unless you use analog audio).

"DTS connect" is a real-time DTS encoder. It can be used for example to encode surround sounds in games to DTS and send it over S/PDIF to speakers. If you don't need features DS4 offers (DTS connect, IEEE 1394, extra SATA ports, RAID etc.), then

GA-P35-DS3L + HD 2600 XT

is a better deal.

renethx

01-07-08, 01:34 PM

Any reason not to move to Vista at this point? Are there any clear advantages of Vista vs. XP or vice versa?
Personally I don't see any reason for not moving to Vista. I have been using Vista for a couple of months and it's excellent.

lorddraco

01-07-08, 01:41 PM

IMO choosing P5E-VM HDMI (btw coaxial only) makes sense only when you try to get lossless 7.1 audio over HDMI. ATI card has its own HDMI audio controller and you don't need onboard audio at all (unless you use analog audio).

"DTS connect" is a real-time DTS encoder. It can be used for example to encode surround sounds in games to DTS and send it over S/PDIF to speakers. If you don't need features DS4 offers (DTS connect, IEEE 1394, extra SATA ports, RAID etc.), then

GA-P35-DS3L + HD 2600 XT

is a better deal.

Just to add, I only have 5.1 setup due to living room dept constraint using MA RS6, RSLCR and B2 (rear)

So .... I think I will take away P5E-VM as option as I am not keen on buying onboad graphic solution. Unless I choose Antec Fusion as casing.

For the DTS Connect thingy .. this is the most confusing part for me. For graphics, it is definitely either a 3850 or 3870 (betweeen two only around SGD 50 to 80 bucks (i.e. around 20 to 30 pound) difference. Will choose the one with DTS (i preferred Asus brand in most of the time) if I played movie thru this HTPC and required this DTS connect in order to play the DTS feature properly thru my AV to the speaker. If, with or without, I could allow the DTS/DD signal over the spdif, then I potentially could either choose the Asus P5K-Pro or the one you had recommends.

MB feature that I might use.

16x PCIe
Onboard Audio SPDIF
RAID - Maybe (If I choose to RAID 1 the disk)

Feature that most or rarely use
1394.

Thanks.

archibael

01-07-08, 01:44 PM

IMO choosing P5E-VM HDMI (btw coaxial only) makes sense only when you try to get lossless 7.1 audio over HDMI.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's not just lossless 7.1, it's the only way to get lossless 5.1 as well.

lorddraco

01-07-08, 02:03 PM

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's not just lossless 7.1, it's the only way to get lossless 5.1 as well.

bitstream?? sorry.. even more confuse.

Doesnt Gigabyte with SPDIF (I.e. the few board mention with 889A) does not do lossless 7.1 or 5.1?? I tot both board use same chip for audio

renethx

01-07-08, 02:06 PM

Some folks in this forum are pushing quad-core processors (actually Q6600) as a base of HTPC, like this thread Core 2 Quad Q6600 - The ultimate solution for HD decoding. I have to agree to some extent for several reasons. Quad-core is just powerful and elegant in realtime decoding. Even the "stinky" Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz beats easily the very fast Core 2 Duo E6850 3.0GHz and even Q6600 2.4GHz.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=98402&stc=1&d=1199732485

(Graphics card used is GeForce 8800 GTX. The source is here (http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=1076&model2=872&chart=441).)

Actually it's pretty easy to pass over. Because the Phenom stinks, lol. And no I'm not "hating" on or needlessly bashing AMD--it's the truth.

The mid-level Phenom (not sure if it's a slower one that's 190 or what but it doesn't matter) is slower at nearly all appications than a stock-clock E6600. Only a handful of apps/situations where four cores are utilised does it outrun it, and that's not by much.

And who runs a E6xxx at stock clock? In fact who runs any Core2 at stock clock? A C2D E6750 is around the same price as the $190 Phenom and it will dust it all over the place (again except quad-core optimised stuff). And then you put like 5mins into a light OC on the C2D and the Phenom can forget about it.

Now you might say, "hey no fair why not OC the Phenom as well".... Well they don't OC so well, whereas Core2s OC well enough that a child could do it and get a decent speed boost from stock. From what I've read and heard any even half-decent OCs on Phenoms, the people are considered "lucky".

An $80 Core2-based Pentium E (Pentium Dual Core) can OC with nearly no effort to 3Ghz+, which will likely run circles around the low-end Phenom.

If you say "hey I don't want to OC though", Phenom is still at a loss as again the similarly priced E6750 will put the Phenom to shame at most things.

And don't even bother comparing any Phenom to even the lowest C2Q because it's over before it started (though yes the Q6600 is a little more money). Four cores the Phenom may be but it doesn't really mean much considering all it is is four A64 cores with newer fabrication--the same A64 which doesn't hold a candle to the Core2.

For an HTPC where four cores are seldome required (and not really desireable from the extra heat/power in most cases) the Phenom is definitely one to pass over, trust me.

archibael

01-07-08, 02:25 PM

bitstream?? sorry.. even more confuse.

Nope. LPCM.

Doesnt Gigabyte with SPDIF (I.e. the few board mention with 889A) does not do lossless 7.1 or 5.1??

No SPDIF solution does lossless 7.1 or 5.1.

I tot both board use same chip for audio

Not over HDMI. Currently, the only solutions for lossless >2 channel audio are the Chrontel 7315 and the SiI 1390/1392 (which is on the aforementioned Asus P5E-VM). If that Gigabyte board you speak of uses them, it's possible it is a lossless solution. Someone out there is sure to correct me if I'm wrong (and I encourage it), but no other HDMI solution out there currently provides more than 2-channel lossless or multichannel lossy.

utee05

01-07-08, 02:29 PM

bitstream?? sorry.. even more confuse.

Doesnt Gigabyte with SPDIF (I.e. the few board mention with 889A) does not do lossless 7.1 or 5.1?? I tot both board use same chip for audio

so this means that you can get DD+ and DTS TrueHD via this motherboard? I thought there weren't any mobo or sound cards that allowed this atm. I am very curious about this since I'm looking to play BD/HD media via my future pc build.

lorddraco

01-07-08, 02:34 PM

Nope. LPCM.

No SPDIF solution does lossless 7.1 or 5.1.

Not over HDMI. Currently, the only solutions for lossless >2 channel audio are the Chrontel 7315 and the SiI 1390/1392 (which is on the aforementioned Asus P5E-VM). If that Gigabyte board you speak of uses them, it's possible it is a lossless solution. Someone out there is sure to correct me if I'm wrong (and I encourage it), but no other HDMI solution out there currently provides more than 2-channel lossless or multichannel lossy.

understand. Unless I do play BD or HD-DVD and wanted lossless 5.1 or 7.1, I do need to have HDMI solution (future ATI perhaps....or nVidia or whatever) else .. no lossless.

Thanks .. I got it clear. I think I will take the latter cause most likely no BD or HD-DVD for me now (Singapore not easy to find BD or HD-DVD stuff) DVD still more common. I do play some games.. so a good graphic is impt for me I guess. unless I remove the games requirement that P5E-VM will be a good choice.

renethx

01-07-08, 02:40 PM

lorddraco

Blu-ray Disc titles must include one of the three audio schemes DD, DTS and LPCM as the primary soundtrack and BD players are required to support them. PowerDVD, for example, if the user chooses, just passes DTS bitstream to the onboard S/PDIF transmitter. So no decoding / encoding process is involved and "DTS Connect" plays no role here.

What eveybody is eagerly anticipating is the PC's capability of passing Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA bitstreams over HDMI 1.3. These codecs are lossless, while DD and DTS is lossy.

renethx

01-07-08, 03:05 PM

MB feature that I might use.

16x PCIe
Onboard Audio SPDIF
RAID - Maybe (If I choose to RAID 1 the disk)

Feature that most or rarely use
1394.
Then

GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R with Radeon HD 3850/3870

is a good choice. I am not sure about the latest ASUS boards, but the initial ASUS P35 boards were plagued by extremely high power consumption (a bad circuitry design) and SATA/RAID problems.

leftheaded

01-07-08, 07:44 PM

I do play some games.. so a good graphic is impt for me I guess. unless I remove the games requirement that P5E-VM will be a good choice.

P5E-VM HDMI can use either (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Asus_P5E-VM_HDMI/5427-9.html) a discrete graphics card (PCIe x16) or the integrated. it overclocks like a champ too (they did 540 FSB with an E6850!)

sounds like a great little mobo to me

Mohuska

01-07-08, 08:38 PM

I have followed this thread for quite some time. I have referenced it many times because of the great unfinished masterpiece produced by Renethx. Great work!!

But now, I am at a crossroads with my HTPC and could really use some sound advice. Here is the deal..

I just built a HTPC using with

Coolmaster case (5 -3.5" HDD's 10K WD Raptor for the C drive and 4 Seagate 750 GB 7200 data disks)
Maximus Formula MB with E6750 dual core
8600 GT video card
Omega HT Claro audio card
4 GB dual channel ram
LG HD Combo drive
MCE 2005 OS
4 TB Ready NV+ NAS on my LAN

I have decided to archive all my Blu ray & HD DVD disks, DVD's, Photos and itunes (24,450 songs) to hard drives.
I use IMGBURN to create ISO's and PowerDVD Ultra for HD playback.

That is all well in good....I have all the itunes, regular DVD's and photos on the Ready NV+. I wanted to test everything out before final archival of HD DVD's and found that if I put the ISO's on the Ready NV+....I get lockup sometimes during playing of the HD DISKS. Not so when I play them directly from a drive in the HTPC.

So now I'm thinking that I want to build a large array to hold the HD and here is where I really need the help.

I have looked at unraid and raid cards....I don't have much experience with either, but I am leary of the unraid.

Renethx...I looked at your diagrams about the directly attached array and I think that might work well. I need a solution that will hold 200+ HD disks and be very fast. I don't want to spend this to get a lazy system that can't keep up.

So....How do I build a 16 HDD system? I sort of understand using the rocket 2340 SATA card. But what type of a MB do I need? How much ram? What OS will allow me to address more than 2 TB (I understand that the 2005 XP MCE will only address a max of 2 TB.....is this correct?)

How do I connect the Direct attached storage to my HTPC? Do I need an external SATA II card (all of my internal SATA's are currently used)? Can I then just connect the HTPC and the SATA Array with a SATA cable (8740??)

Finally, do I need to upgrade the 2005 MCE on my new HTPC to address more than 2 TB?

I hope I haven't asked too many questions....but I've got to get this figured out and this seems to be the best place to do that.....

Thanks for the help

ES_Revenge

01-07-08, 09:26 PM

Some folks in this forum are pushing quad-core processors (actually Q6600) as a base of HTPC, like this thread Core 2 Quad Q6600 - The ultimate solution for HD decoding. I have to agree to some extent for several reasons. Quad-core is just powerful and elegant in realtime decoding. Even the "stinky" Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz beats the very fast Core 2 Duo E6850 3.0GHz (not to mention E6750, and even Q6600) easily.

Yeah I guess you have a good point there. However the 8800GTX doesn't accelerate HD right? (I'm not sure but I thought the 8800s didn't have acceleration?) So the chart is for CPU decode alone. There's something to be said for letting the videocard take some of the load off the CPU. Plus again quad core and an 8800GTX aren't exacly power conscious.

I suppose for gaming you can't really get better than the 8800 right now so if you really need one you need one and you're probably building that with a quad core CPU anyway.

On the other hand you'll also have a lot of people buying 8600s and HD2600s and building generally lower-power consuming machines who probably don't need quad core processing anyway. I guess it all depends on your needs. Someone that was doing encoding with their HTPC would definitely want to get a quad core CPU. And truth be told four cores is a better move for the future as more and more applications will start to take advantage of it.

The Phenom 9500 does indeed outperform the E6850 at HD as you've shown, but as I said it's only a few things here and there (that utilise four cores) that it does. And it's not like the E6850 is struggling to decode that HD either. It's possible it doesn't even need to upclock out of the 6x SpeedStep to perform that task. (I'm sure Tom's ran the CPUs with EIST disabled but I'm just thinking with it enabled it probably won't need to upclock if it's the HD video is the only thing running).

It does have it's few benefits (the Phenom I mean) it's just that I wouldn't build a new system with one. That's only one test--look at most of the rest of the tests and the Phenom doesn't look so hot. Personally I'd only recommend it if you had AMD already and your motherboard could just swap in the Phenom in place of an older A64 x2--in that case it would probably be a very easy and worthwhile upgrade.

renethx

01-07-08, 11:40 PM

So....How do I build a 16 HDD system? I sort of understand using the rocket 2340 SATA card. But what type of a MB do I need? How much ram? What OS will allow me to address more than 2 TB (I understand that the 2005 XP MCE will only address a max of 2 TB.....is this correct?)

How do I connect the Direct attached storage to my HTPC? Do I need an external SATA II card (all of my internal SATA's are currently used)? Can I then just connect the HTPC and the SATA Array with a SATA cable (8740??)

Finally, do I need to upgrade the 2005 MCE on my new HTPC to address more than 2 TB?

I hope I haven't asked too many questions....but I've got to get this figured out and this seems to be the best place to do that.....

Thanks for the help
You already have a good mb and enough RAM. What you need are:

- 16-port SATA RAID controller card. E.g., HighPoint RocketRAID 2340, PROMISE SuperTrack EX16350 (HW XOR and RAID 6). Insert the card to the second PCIe x16 slot of the Maximus Formula board.
- Internal SATA to External Multilane Dual Port PCI Bracket (http://www.cooldrives.com/intoexmudupo.html) x 2
- HighPoint IB-1M InfiniBand SFF-8470 to InfiniBand SFF-8470 1 meter cable x 4. 2m, 3m, 5m cables are also available here (http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/).
- External SATA enclosures with SFF-8470 ports for 16 HDDs. For example, you can use four Addonics MST4ML-B (http://addonics.com/products/raid_system/mst4.asp) Mini Storage Towers. You can also find several enclosures here (http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sata_enclosures/).
- Windows Vista, Home Premium or Ultimate, perhaps 64-bit edition.

Remember that RAID is not backup. You may lose all the data instantly. Yeah, you have original discs, but considering the amount of time to rip and convert a disc to ISO (I guess it takes more than 4 hours), you may want to keep it simple stupid (KISS). I mean you just keep 20 images in each 1TB drive and that's it (no RAID). You can use the above configuration for non-RAID, but there is a cheaper way. What you need are:

- 4-port eSATA controller card supporting port multiplier. E.g., Addonics ADSA3GPX8-4E (PCIe x8, SiI3124), HighPoint RocketRAID 2314 (PCIe x4, 88SX7042), NORCO NORCO-4629 (PCIe x4/x8, SiI3124). That costs less than $200.
- External port multiplier enclosures for 16 HDDs. E.g., Addonics MST5X1PM-B (http://www.addonics.com/products/raid_system/mst4.asp) mini storage tower x 4. Norco also have a 12 HDD port multiplier enclosure.

An alternative is

- AMS DS-2350S eSATA 5 bay SATA Enclosure (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332017) (equipped with SiI4726 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=74) SATA to 5-Port SATA Device SteelVine Storage Processor) x 4 (20 HDDs). Each box comes with a SiI3132-based 2-port eSATA PCIe x1 host controller. Insert two of the cards to the two PCIe x1 slots of the mb and connect the four enclosures to the four eSATA ports. You can't use ICH9R's SATA ports because of a compatibility problem.

The last configuration may be the cheapest and simplest.

cra1g

01-08-08, 03:17 AM

Thanks for taking the time to put this guide together. Based largely on your recommendations, I just ordered the components for my first HTPC from Newegg:

CPU: Core 2 Duo E6750
CPU Cooler: ZEROtherm BTF90
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4
Memory: OCZ Reaper Edition DDR2-800 2 x 2GB Kit
Graphics Card: eVGA 8800GT 512MB
HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA
PSU: Corsair 750TX
Case: Lian Li PC-C32B
WiFi: D-Link DWA-556 802.11n PCI-e
Optical Drive: LG GGC-H20L Blu-Ray/HD-DVD
Sound Card: Asus Xonar D2X 7.1ch PCI-e
Operating System: MS Vista 64-Bit Home Premium

Your guide made hardware selection much easier; now I just need to figure out the software :confused: ...

renethx

01-08-08, 07:05 AM

now I just need to figure out the software :confused: ...
I announced "Software Guide" but I haven't decided even the contents yet. A possibe table of contents is

- Operating System and Front End
- Play/Rip/Burn DVD, BD, HD DVD
- Play/Rip/Burn CD
- Play/Record TV (OTA (NTSC, ATSC)/analog cable/unencrypted QAM)
- Listen to Radio (FM/Internet)
- Play/Store/Organize Video Files
- Play/Store/Organize Audio Files
- View/Store/Organize Pictures
- Browse Internet
- HTPC Gaming

Each chapter should include:

- A brief explanation of each function
- List of a couple of popular applications.
- A brief practical guide to each applications.

Well, writing down TOC is easy, but writing substantial contents is not so easy. Even updating hardware part is not easy because new hardware (video cards, motherboards, CPUs etc.) is released every couple of months. Eventually I will write software part, but finish writing, say, three months later at best.

Mohuska

01-08-08, 03:46 PM

error9

01-08-08, 03:58 PM

Just curious as to how this setup will stack up against 1080p .mkv & current games? I basically copied most of this from your MicroATX Low-End I system.
I'm really looking for best bang for my buck, since I dont have a lot of cash atm. System will be paired up w/ a samsung 52" 120hz 1089p.
Thanks for all the valuable info thus far!

* G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) (already own)
* Antec New Solution NSK2480
* SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
* GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H AM2 AMD 690G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
* SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
* AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ Brisbane 2.6GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core Black Edition Processor - Retail
* Scythe SCMNJ-1000 80mm Sleeve "NINJA MINI" CPU Cooler - Retail

brianley

01-08-08, 04:05 PM

Should be fine for 1080P material, but the 2600XT doesn't offer much in the gaming dept. If you really plan on playing games on this system, you probably want to look at a 3850 or 3870 (on the ATI side) or a 8800 on the NVidia side.

error9

01-08-08, 04:20 PM

Well crap, looks like if i went that route I'd also need a bigger power supply.
If i did switch to a 3870 card will i be able to run games at high quality?

brianley

01-08-08, 05:12 PM

I can only refer you to the various reviews, both on avs and 3rd party sites:

http://www.techspot.com/review/76-asus-radeon-hd-3870/page3.html

While not as fast as the NVidia cards, it is somewhat less expensive and appears to be able to play the current games in high quality settings.

Donny Bahama

01-08-08, 05:50 PM

Personally I don't see any reason for not moving to Vista. I have been using Vista for a couple of months and it's excellent.My experience with Vista has been terrible. In fact, I'm in the process of downgrading my notebook (Core 2 Duo 2GHz with 2GB RAM!) to XP. I even tried numerous tips for increasing performance in Vista and it was still awful. So, with that in mind, I'd really like to see an answer to MurrayW's question - Are there any clear advantages of Vista vs. XP?

renethx

01-08-08, 06:12 PM

If I go the separate drive route, then I believe I don't need to upgrade the OS... do I?

I know a lot of people believe in redundancy, but it seems that unless you go with a huge enclosure with all your drives in it...You lose at least 1 entire drive per enclosure for just the redundancy. So with 4 separate enclosures, I would have 20% of the drives committed to redundancy as opposed to 1 enclosure with say 16 drives (that would be 6% committed to redundancy). I believe I would also have to change the OS to handle more than 2 TB partitions if I go to a RAID configuration.
If you go with non-RAID, XP is fine.

As long as all 4 enclosures are connected to the same RAID card, you lose only one drive among the 16 drives. You need Vista to support over a 2TB volume (there seems to be a way around with XP though; somebody gave the link to an Addaptic document in this thread). But if you store 20 files in each drive and access them occasionally when playing back movie, I don't see any advantage of RAID 5, disadvantage is greater, imo.

renethx

01-08-08, 06:15 PM

HappyFunBoater

01-08-08, 06:30 PM

Renethx... Thanks for the great help. I am leaning to just installing a non-raid configuration and having 20 separate drives. I will only be installing about 20 HD ISO files on each one and my computer rips Blu ray to ISO in 45-60 minutes. So that isn't too bad.

If I go the separate drive route, then I believe I don't need to upgrade the OS... do I? I tried the OS upgrade from Windows XP to Vista when it first came out and my machine ran so terrible that I wiped the drive and installed a fresh copy of XP.... so I don't want to go through with that again.

I know a lot of people believe in redundancy, but it seems that unless you go with a huge enclosure with all your drives in it...You lose at least 1 entire drive per enclosure for just the redundancy. So with 4 separate enclosures, I would have 20% of the drives committed to redundancy as opposed to 1 enclosure with say 16 drives (that would be 6% committed to redundancy). I believe I would also have to change the OS to handle more than 2 TB partitions if I go to a RAID configuration.

So unless there is a viable alternative, it appears that I am "stuck" with having separate designated drives.

Thanks again

I think you're making the right call in not using RAID, and I work for a RAID company. Many people confuse "redundancy" with "backup". The latter is absolutely necessary. The former is only necessary if you can't tolerate downtime, such as when you're serving up pay-per-view movies at a hotel. Having redundancy absolutely doesn't eliminate the need for backup. When I use RAID at home it's usually RAID-0 and only to consolidate physical drives into one easier-to-manage logical drives. It can also increase performance, but performance usually isn't an issue, unless, again, you're serving up movies at a hotel.

renethx

01-08-08, 07:17 PM

My experience with Vista has been terrible. In fact, I'm in the process of downgrading my notebook (Core 2 Duo 2GHz with 2GB RAM!) to XP. I even tried numerous tips for increasing performance in Vista and it was still awful. So, with that in mind, I'd really like to see an answer to MurrayW's question - Are there any clear advantages of Vista vs. XP?
In my various systems Vista SP1 RC1 is running fine and I have yet to see any serious problem. Now I am wondering what is the real advantage of XP over Vista.

ES_Revenge

01-08-08, 08:04 PM

When I use RAID at home it's usually RAID-0 and only to consolidate physical drives into one easier-to-manage logical drives. It can also increase performance, but performance usually isn't an issue, unless, again, you're serving up movies at a hotel.
Isn't JBOD usually preferrable to RAID-0 if you're not interested in or won't benefit from, the additional performance of RAID-0? In RAID-0 if one drive fails you've lost everything because the disks are striped right? But in JBOD, you still get the one logical drive for the drives but if one drive fails you only lose what's on that drive, no?

ES_Revenge

01-08-08, 08:13 PM

In my various systems Vista SP1 RC1 is running fine and I have yet to see any serious problem. Now I am wondering what is the real advantage of XP over Vista.
LOL the advantage is you get a poorer user interface and get to use an aging 7 year old OS with software support/development that is undoubtedly fading and will at some point be non-existent. Well that's if you consider those things "advantages" :D

That said I do run XP on my older computer that's my "main" computer, but really only because
a. it doesn't have enough RAM for Vista to run well
b. I have an ATi AIW card in there and the AIW features will work in MCE 2005 but not in Vista's MCE.

On the HTPC (which is a far better/newer machine) I run Vista and I do like it a lot better. I have had several problems with Vista leading me to think MS released a Beta to market making everyone a Beta tester! With all the hotfixes and junk out there that you have to find (some of which fix one problem and make an entirely new one for you!) it really does seem like that's the case to me. However on a recent clean re-install with new updates things are working a lot better, well for now at least. Hopefully it will stay that way until the official SP1 is released which hopefully will turn Vista-beta into a properly working OS, heh.

But despite the problems here and there that I have had, I still prefer Vista and realise "sticking with XP" or "going back to XP" is a rather silly idea. In order to have progress you have to adopt new stuff, not stay in the past and fear progress because of a few hiccups you might have along the way.

renethx

01-08-08, 08:21 PM

Jagercola

01-08-08, 08:58 PM

Renethx or anyone: I've got a Codegen 4U-500 case on the way. Thanks for telling me about it. Now, does anyone know of an inexpensive 12U rack for 2-3 of these cases? Maybe someone has some alternative mounting methods.

Thanks

error9

01-08-08, 09:04 PM

Thanks for all the input guys.

FYI for anyone interested,

while shopping around for the Antec New Solution NSK2480 case
I stumbled upon a $30. mail-in rebate which brings the total
to $50 after rebates

zipzoomfly.com/rebate/10006028_010708.pdf

cheers

Donny Bahama

01-08-08, 10:05 PM

Now I am wondering what is the real advantage of XP over Vista.All I can tell you is that on my notebook (a recently purchased high-end HP), Vista is snail-slow, while XP runs like greased lightning.

So, aside from gobbling up system resources and CPU cycles, if there is something specific (aside from being a couple years "newer" and "superior user interface" :rolleyes: ) that makes Vista a better choice for HTPCs, I'd sincerely like to know about it.

ES_Revenge

01-08-08, 10:18 PM

All I can tell you is that on my notebook (a recently purchased high-end HP), Vista is snail-slow, while XP runs like greased lightning.

So, aside from gobbling up system resources and CPU cycles, if there is something specific (aside from being a couple years "newer" and "superior user interface" :rolleyes: ) that makes Vista a better choice for HTPCs, I'd sincerely like to know about it.

7 years is not what I would call a "couple" years and yeah the UI is far better. But even if that's opinion... Besides that, there are quite a few reasons. For starters, how about the way Vista handles audio and gives more control over things like bass-management? What about the fact that Nvidia had their HD acceleration going with PureVidoeHD properly with Vista but not with XP? (This may be corrected in newer XP drivers by now, I'm not actually sure; but trust me later on, when XP support wanes, companies won't even bother with XP support period.) What about the fact that MCE is largely improved? What about the fact that some new games won't run on XP at all (well right now they usually will with hacks but again, later on...)? I mean we could go on and on here...

The fact is, again, that XP has no future, plain and simple. It might continue on with support for a little while, but it's definitely not going to continue forever. It's a 7-year old OS, it's not getting any youger.

Mohuska

01-08-08, 10:22 PM

renethx

01-08-08, 11:25 PM

Does anyone know if you set up a RAID partition as JBOD (assuming for example that the array is 5 TB), would you need Vista to access the one large logical drive or will you still get full 5 TB access under XP?

Thanks for the help.
The following document may be helpful:

http://www.microsoft.com/germany/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c13621675.mspx

Because partition tables on master boot record (MBR) disks support only partition sizes up to 2 terabytes, you must use dynamic volumes to create NTFS volumes over 2 terabytes. Windows XP Professional manages dynamic volumes in a special database instead of in the partition table, so dynamic volumes are not subject to the 2-terabyte physical limit imposed by the partition table. Therefore, dynamic NTFS volumes can be as large as the maximum volume size supported by NTFS.

Mohuska

01-08-08, 11:59 PM

That document helps a great deal. I spent a long time reading nearly the whole thing and I think I understand much more now. Thanks for the help!

kenny_dope

01-09-08, 01:20 AM

renethx> please check your pm. and I just have to say thanks for putting up a wonderful guide :)

Mike Philippens

01-09-08, 02:42 AM

I have followed this thread for quite some time.
So....How do I build a 16 HDD system? I sort of understand using the rocket 2340 SATA card. But what type of a MB do I need? How much ram? What OS will allow me to address more than 2 TB (I understand that the 2005 XP MCE will only address a max of 2 TB.....is this correct?)
Well...I don't have 16 drives, but I made a cheap system as a NAS which lives in a closet somewhere in the house (far away for the noise). It's a cheap MB with 512Mb memory and it runs Ubuntu Linux. Before you say that you don't know anything about Linux, let me point you to WebMin. This is a web based management console that makes managing the Linux stuff easy as 1-2-3.
Linux doesn't take much of your system, and contrary to Windows (any version) it doesn't need a fast cpu and lots of memory just to make a few disks available to the network. It's made to do that.

Format the disks with the XFS filing system and use NFS instead of Samba. NFS is faster and better for streaming big files, as is XFS a better filing system for the job.

Also...a gigabit LAN is what you want. I went through the trouble of rewiring (cat5e cables) and installing 2 Netgear Gigabit ethernet switches. The NAS system now holds 1.5Tb and doesn't even blink.

renethx

01-09-08, 03:22 AM

Mohuska said, he is using ReadyNAS NV+ and lockup occurs during playing back ISO images stored in ReadyNAS. It is Linux-based and has Gb LAN. So another Linux NAS may not work...

HappyFunBoater

01-09-08, 06:26 AM

Isn't JBOD usually preferrable to RAID-0 if you're not interested in or won't benefit from, the additional performance of RAID-0? In RAID-0 if one drive fails you've lost everything because the disks are striped right? But in JBOD, you still get the one logical drive for the drives but if one drive fails you only lose what's on that drive, no?

Yep, I agree. The disadvantage of RAID-0 is that if a drive fails you lose the entire array. The advantage is that if you have a bunch of drives you're not having to juggle space on and share a bunch of F:, G:, H:, I:, J:, K:, etc., drives. I use my RAID-0 as a junk drive, including backup images. I could lose it all and still be ok. Also, my drives are old and a little junky, so I wanted greater performance.

BTW, now that I think about it, I recently switched from RAID-0 to concatenated drives because my drives were of dissimilar sizes.

HappyFunBoater

01-09-08, 06:32 AM

Does anyone know if you set up a RAID partition as JBOD (assuming for example that the array is 5 TB), would you need Vista to access the one large logical drive or will you still get full 5 TB access under XP?

Thanks for the help.

If I understand your question, it depends on whether you're using hardware or software RAID. If hardware, where the RAID is done in a dedicated controller on the motherboard, in the chipset or on a plug-in card, then the array will appear to the OS as a JBOD. You'll just need am appropriate driver and BIOS for each of the OSes that you mention. BTW, the OS could divide this big JBOD into multiple partitions which some people think of as JBODs.

If it's a software RAID then the OS sees physical (JBOD) drives, and builds a logical drive (array) that the filesystem and applications see.

I'm not sure if you can get 5TB support under XP. I know you can get it under Win2003 with the appropriate service pack. EDIT: I just noticed the post from renethx where he shares a post indicating that XP can do greater than 2TB.

BenSanford

01-09-08, 09:53 AM

lorddraco

01-09-08, 09:56 AM

If I understand your question, it depends on whether you're using hardware or software RAID. If hardware, where the RAID is done in a dedicated controller on the motherboard, in the chipset or on a plug-in card, then the array will appear to the OS as a JBOD. You'll just need am appropriate driver and BIOS for each of the OSes that you mention. BTW, the OS could divide this big JBOD into multiple partitions which some people think of as JBODs.

If it's a software RAID then the OS sees physical (JBOD) drives, and builds a logical drive (array) that the filesystem and applications see.

I'm not sure if you can get 5TB support under XP. I know you can get it under Win2003 with the appropriate service pack. EDIT: I just noticed the post from renethx where he shares a post indicating that XP can do greater than 2TB.

Windows do can support bigger than 2TB but only if using GPT formatted disk as versus MBR. The reason for the limitation is not on NTFS but on the old ways of boot sector of the disk. The only issue is GPT is supported only on Non-Bootable disk but if the RAID or JBOD is seperate. That should not be an issue.

For me .... I also run NAS in my home using Windows 2003 Standard but I dont have more than 2TB. In fact, just 1 TB. Reason for Windows is more compatability some other software that I run but I dont have the luxury of putting it into a closet somewhere in my home. Space constraint, so in my study room.

Simple specs but still run pretty well for almost 2 years. Next year time for tech refresh.

Dual P3 733MHz (HP Board but Asus OEM)
512MB PC133 ECC RAM
2 x 40GB ATA in RAID 1 for OS (Cheap PCI RAID Card)
4 x 250GB SATA in RAID 5 for data via HPT 1810A in PCI-X slot
1Gb Intel Pro1000 Card (64bit) in PCI-X

cheers ...

HappyFunBoater

01-09-08, 04:07 PM

I build up my HTPC a couple of months ago with many of the recommended components at the time, including an Abit IP35 Pro motherboard. My system drive uses one of the ATA ports, and then I am using most of the ICH9R's SATA ports for a RAID 5 array that all video is stored on. At the time it seemed the simplest was to go, since my wife just wouldn't understand why I would need separate rack mounted units for additional storage. (I can 'hide' the money spent, but not the physical hardware). Therefore I want to have my solution contained with my current case.

I'm using Vista-64, and see the 3 TB raid array as one drive (with 4 1TB drives in the array), and maybe I just didn't understand the other options that have been discussed recently on this thread, and a different configuration should be implemented. I initially just had the separate E:, F:, G:, H: drives, but since Vista MC wants to always record to one drive, I went to my current RAID configuration to avoid that hassle, but now and second-guessing that choice.

What might be a better way to go, and why?

If you want to stick with one logical drive, and you have only four physical drives, then your only options are RAID-0 and RAID-5. (RAID-6 is only useful if you have a lot more drives, like 10-16. And RAID-10 is just too expensive, IMO.) To figure out which one is right for you, just answer a few questions.

First, are you backing up your data? That's kind of a trick question because you need to back up your data regardless of which RAID level you're using.

Second, assuming that you're backing up your data, if a drive were to fail is it acceptable to have your videos/music/whatever offline for a day while you restore the data from backup? If it is acceptable, then go with RAID-0 and get a free TB back, plus additional performance during writes. If not, then RAID-5 is your only choice.

Donny Bahama

01-09-08, 04:53 PM

7 years is not what I would call a "couple" yearsCalling XP a 7 year old OS is ridiculous. 7 years ago is early 2001. Remember an OS called "Windows 2000"? XP was released in late October of 2001 - a little over 6 years ago. SP2 (which represented a huge overhaul and was practically a new OS) was released in August of '04, making the XP that many people still know and use about 3 and a half years old. And the version of XP that many people use for HTPCs is Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 which won't be 7 years old until some time in 2011. Also, let's not forget that Vista (which is based on the server version of Windows XP, Windows Server 2003) was originally supposed to ship in late 2003 but MS announced delay after delay until they finally began their beta releases in 2005.and yeah the UI is far better. But even if that's opinion...Yup. And we all know what opinions are like, don't we? But what does it matter what the UI is like if we're all going to use some media center front-end?Besides that, there are quite a few reasons. For starters, how about the way Vista handles audio and gives more control over things like bass-management?Finally, a straight answer to the original question! This is the kind of information I was after to begin with. Maybe you could expand on this? Maybe you could list some other similar details? I don't understand why you had to duck into a phone booth and become The Vista Crusader instead of just explaining things like this.trust me later on, when XP support wanes, companies won't even bother with XP support period.PC World listed Vista as #1 on its list of "biggest tech disappointments of 2007". So many users - especially in the corporate world, are reluctant to upgrade and I know many people besides myself who made the upgrade and are now switching back to XP. With SP3 in the works, it's going to be a long time before XP support wanes.What about the fact that MCE is largely improved?I'll have to take your word for that. Personally, I much prefer MediaPortal over MCE.What about the fact that some new games won't run on XP at allPersonally, I'm not a gamer, so I don't much care, but I do know several people who upgraded to Vista so they could play Halo. But Vista ran so poorly and so slowly on their systems that they couldn't play it anyway!The fact is, again, that XP has no future, plain and simple. It might continue on with support for a little while, but it's definitely not going to continue forever. Obviously XP support will fade before Vista support does, but again, I'm not looking for a big debate over which is better or which will be supported longer. Obviously Vista is newer and it should be better. My experience with it has been negative, and I know many others whose experience has been similar to mine, but that's not the point. I'm an open minded person and I'm sincerely seeking answers to the original question posed by MurrayW - what are the technical advantages (as pertaining to HTPCs) of Vista over XP?

Donny Bahama

01-09-08, 04:59 PM

Well...I don't have 16 drives, but I made a cheap system as a NAS which lives in a closet somewhere in the house (far away for the noise). It's a cheap MB with 512Mb memory and it runs Ubuntu Linux. Before you say that you don't know anything about Linux, let me point you to WebMin. This is a web based management console that makes managing the Linux stuff easy as 1-2-3.
Linux doesn't take much of your system, and contrary to Windows (any version) it doesn't need a fast cpu and lots of memory just to make a few disks available to the network. It's made to do that.

Format the disks with the XFS filing system and use NFS instead of Samba. NFS is faster and better for streaming big files, as is XFS a better filing system for the job.

Also...a gigabit LAN is what you want. I went through the trouble of rewiring (cat5e cables) and installing 2 Netgear Gigabit ethernet switches. The NAS system now holds 1.5Tb and doesn't even blink.Well said. I use Ubuntu and WebMin on my media server as well. Another advantage of a Linux-based server is the ability to do software RAID - no expensive RAID contrroller card required and no worries about losing the entire array if the controller fails.

Mohuska

01-09-08, 05:50 PM

Thanks for all of the help that I have been getting. My goal is to archive all of my hig def DVD's, SD DVD's, music and photos. I have a Ready NV+ with 4 TB (RAID 5 - 2.7 true) for SD DVD's, music and photos and am using all other storage for HD movies.

Streaming from the Ready NAS did not work. Playing the ISO's kept locking up, where it worked fine directly off the internal drives on my HTPC. I am gathering components to build the largest array I can for all of the movies and am still considering options for hardware (Thanks renethx).

I don't know if any of you are familiar, but there is a great Front End out there called Cinemar (www.cinemaronline.com). This is a well developed system that allows you to use some awesome GUI's that you can develop or use the standard ones provided. It has so many features, go take a look if you are interersted.

I am going to use a UMPC wireless with the Cinemar client to view all of my info including DVD and music cover art, play movies, music, set my thermostat, lights, sprinklers and IP video surveillance around my property.

I know this is an HTPC thread, so I don't want to hijack it, but if you want a very slick interface that is very reasonably priced.....check it out.

Meanwhile, I am still trying to figure the best storage since I will be storing about 20 ISO's per TB (mostly Blu ray). I like the 5 SATA II enclosures that use a Port Multiplier and allow you to create some pretty hefty arrays (although I would need at least 4 of these enclosures at this time + drives :rolleyes:) Youch!!! Guess it's a good thing I manage the money in the house...:D