Guide to Building a HD HTPC [Text View] - Page 30

andross77

04-06-09, 09:32 AM

It could be that your mb is too old (even the mb chipset driver for Vista is not available) to support the Radeon HDMI audio. But it's worth trying.

so i went into best buy and the guys told me (2 separate guys) were supremely confident that all i needed was a 3.5mm to RCA adaptor to get sound from my card. They both said even though i have 5 colored 3.5mm slots in my motherboard i only plug the one end into the green hole and then the red and white go into the stereo receiver and i just turn it to whichever mode i plugged it in to (TAPE) and i should have sound.

Nothing.

One thing that the sound in my system tray says is (SPDIF OUT) or something like that. And i have a yellow separate SPDIF OUT connector on the motherboard right next to the optical out. I tried using a cord that had yellow, red and white connectors on BOTH ends and just connect the yellow from one end into the mobo SPDIF OUT and then the red and white from the other end into the receiver. Still nothing.

Any other suggestions? I could buy a new receiver or motherboard but that will be another $100-$300 and i'm not willing to do that. I have to believe a $20 cord could fix this. The 3.5mm to RCA connector from walmart was $4.

The guy at Best Buy said that any motherboard from 1995 and on should be able to get sound from using that connector. My mobo is from 2005. :(

renethx

04-06-09, 10:00 AM

so i went into best buy and the guys told me (2 separate guys) were supremely confident that all i needed was a 3.5mm to RCA adaptor to get sound from my card. They both said even though i have 5 colored 3.5mm slots in my motherboard i only plug the one end into the green hole and then the red and white go into the stereo receiver and i just turn it to whichever mode i plugged it in to (TAPE) and i should have sound.

Nothing.

One thing that the sound in my system tray says is (SPDIF OUT) or something like that. And i have a yellow separate SPDIF OUT connector on the motherboard right next to the optical out. I tried using a cord that had yellow, red and white connectors on BOTH ends and just connect the yellow from one end into the mobo SPDIF OUT and then the red and white from the other end into the receiver. Still nothing.

Any other suggestions? I could buy a new receiver or motherboard but that will be another $100-$300 and i'm not willing to do that. I have to believe a $20 cord could fix this. The 3.5mm to RCA connector from walmart was $4.

The guy at Best Buy said that any motherboard from 1995 and on should be able to get sound from using that connector. My mobo is from 2005. :(
Will you post a screenshot of the sound dialog box like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=135476&stc=1&d=1236105665)? Please read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029603#SoundDialogBox) and test your speakers.

Will you let me know the precise model number of your display, AVR (if you have) and the speaker systems? I know you are using

- mb: ASUS P5AD2-E Intel 925XE chipset ATX,
- graphics card: Radeon HD 4830 (which model?)

There are three ways to get sounds from your system:

- Use HDMI audio from HD 4830
- Use analog or S/PDIF from onboard audio (but you have to install correct Vista driver)
- Add a sound card (you can buy a cheap one at $20) and use its analog or S/PDIF out.

I am a bit perplexed what you want to do. Did you try the first one? Did you install a Vista driver for the C-Media audio codec? Vista default driver may be enough (or not enough), however. Only the actual test will show the truth (I mean the test from the Sound dialog box).

andross77

04-06-09, 10:32 AM

Will you post a screenshot of the sound dialog box like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=135476&stc=1&d=1236105665)? Please read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029603#SoundDialogBox) and test your speakers.

Will you let me know the precise model number of your display, AVR (if you have) and the speaker systems? I know you are using

- mb: ASUS P5AD2-E Intel 925XE chipset ATX,
- graphics card: Radeon HD 4830 (which model?)

There are three ways to get sounds from your system:

- Use HDMI audio from HD 4830
- Use analog or S/PDIF from onboard audio (but you have to install correct Vista driver)
- Add a sound card (you can buy a cheap one at $20) and use its analog or S/PDIF out.

I am a bit perplexed what you want to do. Did you try the first one? Did you install a Vista driver for the C-Media audio codec? Vista default driver may be enough (or not enough), however. Only the actual test will show the truth (I mean the test from the Sound dialog box).

I think this is my monitor (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LNS3251D-32-Inch-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000ELSY0I). I'd have to go home and check but i think it's the Samsung LNS3251D 32" LCD tv.

My receiver is this one (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8254612&st=insignia+receiver&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1169512582154). The Insignia NS-R2000.

My speakers are these (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7705307&st=insignia+bookshelf&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1138085354138). The Insignia Bookshelf NS-B2111.

I just want to get sound now that i removed the sound card to fit the ati 4830 card in my computer. i don't care how i do it as long as the solution is under $30 or so. Otherwise i might as well start putting money towards a new mobo.

I downloaded the latest Realtex HDMI audio codec from your other posting. It updated the files, unzipped, installed, did everything....and nothing changed. i still can't get audio through my hdmi. Only video. If i could buy a super cheap external sound card and hook it up through there i don't mind the ugliness of it at all. But i don't have any room for a sound card in my current computer case.

Thanks so much for helping me out with this. :)

renethx

04-06-09, 11:12 AM

I downloaded the latest Realtex HDMI audio codec from your other posting. It updated the files, unzipped, installed, did everything....and nothing changed. i still can't get audio through my hdmi. Only video.
Please post a couple of screenshots of the Sound dialog box. (Use Snipping Tool in Accessories.)

andross77

04-06-09, 11:15 AM

Please post a couple of screenshots of the Sound dialog box. (Use Snipping Tool in Accessories.)

sorry i don't have access to my computer right now but i can tell you from the example you gave with the 4 items in the sound dialogue box, mine only has the last one (Realtek Digital Output). It looks exactly like the one there in the screenshot. But i don't have any of the 3 above it.

renethx

04-06-09, 11:20 AM

sorry i don't have access to my computer right now but i can tell you from the example you gave with the 4 items in the sound dialogue box, mine only has the last one (Realtek Digital Output). It looks exactly like the one there in the screenshot. But i don't have any of the 3 above it.
OK, just post screenshots when you have acess to your PC.

I still don't get why you see Realtek Digital Output. This is the Realtek onboard audio codec (ALC889A in my motherboard). As your mb does not have any Realtek audio codec, you should not see it (yours is C-Media). On the other hand, I don't get why you don't see Realtek HDMI Output. This is the HDMI audio from the Radeon graphics card. If you installed the ATI HDMI driver correctly, you must see it. You may have confused them (that's one reason why I am asking screenshots). You can never use a sound playback device that does not show in this dialog box. For example, if you don't see C-Media audio codec, you will never be able to use it (analog or S/PDIF).

The picture below is the properties of "Realtek Digital Output"; the controller is Realtek High Definition Audio" (ALC889A) and the Realtek driver is installed (click the "Properites" button). Please post screenshots of them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138992&stc=1&d=1239032642

vanylapep

04-06-09, 11:36 AM

Hi,

Anyone own this and can give feedback?

http://www.wdc.com/global/images/products/img3/300/wdfWDTV.jpg

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=572&language=en

renethx

04-06-09, 11:51 AM

Hi,

Anyone own this and can give feedback?

http://www.wdc.com/global/images/products/img3/300/wdfWDTV.jpg

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=572&language=en
You can see tons of posts on this product in the Digital Media Servers & Content Streamers Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=39).

vanylapep

04-06-09, 12:36 PM

You can see tons of posts on this product in the Digital Media Servers & Content Streamers Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=39).

Thanks Renethx :)

aussiestilgar

04-06-09, 12:51 PM

No, you never get 7.1 LPCM because if you add a GeForce card, then onboard video is automatically disabled by Vista.

So if you add a discrete graphics card it will take over sound? You can't even enable onboard HDMI sound via a motherboard's bios? I was thinking you could at least do it separately: connect one cable from mobo to receiver, and the other cable from graphics to display.

In this case any gaming HTPC (that uses LPCM over HDMI) should be using an ATI 4xxx card, yes?

rhinogooner

04-06-09, 01:03 PM

renethx

04-06-09, 01:10 PM

So if you add a discrete graphics card it will take over sound? You can't even enable onboard HDMI sound via a motherboard's bios? I was thinking you could at least do it separately: connect one cable from mobo to receiver, and the other cable from graphics to display.

In this case any gaming HTPC (that uses LPCM over HDMI) should be using an ATI 4xxx card, yes?
GeForce 9800 GT does not have any HDMI audio controller. It just disables GMA X4500HD (including HDMI audio).

Take a look at this picture (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16206844#post16206844). I installed a ATI Radeon HD 4670 card in a GeForce 9400 mb. NVIDIA HDMI audio is completely disabled ("Not plugged in"). A similar thing will happen in your system ("Intel HDMI Output: Not plugged in"). As the Radeon HD 4xxx has its own HDMI audio controller, I can use it. However in your case, there will be no available HDMI device.

If the mb chipset is NVIDIA's (e.g. GeForce 8200, 8300, 9300, 9400), then yes, you can use both dGPU and iGPU and you will get 7.1 LPCM from onboard video. Check this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13897618#post13897618). Further if both mb and dGPU support Hybrid Power, only one HDMI cable is enough. Check this page (http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybrid_sli_desktop.html). (Not every 9800 GT supports Hybrid Power!)

If you could find a low-profile Radeon HD 46xx/48xx card, that would be the best choice for Dell. Unfortunately all the HD 46xx/48xx cards are full-height.

hgeblome

04-06-09, 01:17 PM

I built an HTPC with a 640 GB HDD. After I assembled everything and fired it up, Vista reported the size of the drive as 596.2 GB. Does this make sense to anyone?

Is there a setting I need to adjust to maximize the size of this drive?

It's a minor issue but one that I have been curious about so I thought I would ask.

This is normal. It's the difference between base 2 and base 10. See here:
http://compreviews.about.com/od/storage/a/ActualHDSizes.htm

renethx

04-06-09, 01:23 PM

I built an HTPC with a 640 GB HDD. After I assembled everything and fired it up, Vista reported the size of the drive as 596.2 GB. Does this make sense to anyone?

Is there a setting I need to adjust to maximize the size of this drive?

It's a minor issue but one that I have been curious about so I thought I would ask.
It's normal. 596.2 GB means not 596.2 x 10^9 bytes, but 596.2 GiB = 640 x 10^9 bytes = 640 GB. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_size). OS likes the dyadic system.

hgeblome

04-06-09, 01:27 PM

One thing that the sound in my system tray says is (SPDIF OUT) or something like that. And i have a yellow separate SPDIF OUT connector on the motherboard right next to the optical out. I tried using a cord that had yellow, red and white connectors on BOTH ends and just connect the yellow from one end into the mobo SPDIF OUT and then the red and white from the other end into the receiver. Still nothing.

:(

You need to hook the other end of that yellow cable up to your receiver (if it has coax audio in). Those are three separate cables (red to red, white to white, yellow to yellow) so using yellow on one end and red and white on the other means none of them are hooked up to anything.

andross77

04-06-09, 02:14 PM

OK, just post screenshots when you have acess to your PC.

I still don't get why you see Realtek Digital Output. This is the Realtek onboard audio codec (ALC889A in my motherboard). As your mb does not have any Realtek audio codec, you should not see it (yours is C-Media). On the other hand, I don't get why you don't see Realtek HDMI Output. This is the HDMI audio from the Radeon graphics card. If you installed the ATI HDMI driver correctly, you must see it. You may have confused them (that's one reason why I am asking screenshots). You can never use a sound playback device that does not show in this dialog box. For example, if you don't see C-Media audio codec, you will never be able to use it (analog or S/PDIF).

The picture below is the properties of "Realtek Digital Output"; the controller is Realtek High Definition Audio" (ALC889A) and the Realtek driver is installed (click the "Properites" button). Please post screenshots of them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138992&stc=1&d=1239032642

can you show me the easiest way to post screen shots on this website? i've never done it before. i will have to try tonight and then post tomorrow morning. i'm positive that i don't see the hdmi audio though and only the realtek digitout output.

i'll post back tomorrow. please just let me know how i can upload the screenshots. (i need help from A to Z meaning how do i take the screenshot, where do i save it to and how do i upload it to a post. sorry :)) thanks.

aussiestilgar

04-06-09, 02:21 PM

GeForce 9800 GT does not have any HDMI audio controller. It just disables GMA X4500HD (including HDMI audio).

Take a look at this picture (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16206844#post16206844). I installed a ATI Radeon HD 4670 card in a GeForce 9400 mb. NVIDIA HDMI audio is completely disabled ("Not plugged in"). A similar thing will happen in your system ("Intel HDMI Output: Not plugged in"). As the Radeon HD 4xxx has its own HDMI audio controller, I can use it. However in your case, there will be no available HDMI device.

If the mb chipset is NVIDIA's (e.g. GeForce 8200, 8300, 9300, 9400), then yes, you can use both dGPU and iGPU and you will get 7.1 LPCM from onboard video. Check this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13897618#post13897618). Further if both mb and dGPU support Hybrid Power, only one HDMI cable is enough. Check this page (http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybrid_sli_desktop.html). (Not every 9800 GT supports Hybrid Power!)

If you could find a low-profile Radeon HD 46xx/48xx card, that would be the best choice for Dell. Unfortunately all the HD 46xx/48xx cards are full-height.

Thanks for the explanation. Something like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102829) would work then, but I was hoping for a bit more oomph for gaming. Maybe I'll custom build using the GF9400/9800GT combo.

rshanti

04-06-09, 02:46 PM

Hi...

First, thanks to all of you (especially you, Renethx) for all the great inforamtion you've provide on building HTPC's and Media Servers. I don't know where I could have found all of this informaiton otherwise.

I'm about to (finally) launch into building both a HTPC and a Home Media Server. I'm starting first with the server, as I can use it for other applications in my home and then add the HTPC.

After going through your list of items for a media server, I've come up with the following parts list:

• LITE-ON Slim 8X DVD Burner Black SATA Model DS-8A2S-A01
• Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
• Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31000333AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (4 of these)
• CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V 2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply
• CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5
• SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SBE LGA 775 Intel 3210 ATX Server Motherboard
• Intel Core2 Duo E7500 Wolfdale 2.93GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80571E7500
• SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 64-bit PCI-X133MHz SATA Controller Card
• NORCO RPC-4020 4U Rackmount Server Case

My question has to do with setting this server up as a RAID 5 server. I’m wondering if the RAID setup is supported by the HBA you suggested or is it done via the Bios on the MB or am I completely using the wrong setup to create a RAID 5 server? I’ve setup HP servers before, but they are an entirely different animal. I just want to be sure that I’m specing the right items for this server. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.

I’m sure I’ll be back on the board when I start on my HTPC.

renethx

04-06-09, 02:49 PM

can you show me the easiest way to post screen shots on this website? i've never done it before. i will have to try tonight and then post tomorrow morning. i'm positive that i don't see the hdmi audio though and only the realtek digitout output.

i'll post back tomorrow. please just let me know how i can upload the screenshots. (i need help from A to Z meaning how do i take the screenshot, where do i save it to and how do i upload it to a post. sorry :)) thanks.
Taking a screenshot is easy.

- Lauch Snipping Tool from Accessories in the program group. Your screen will fade.
- Make a rectangular box on the screen. Click the Save button.

To take another screenshot, click the New button and repeat the second.

To attach images to a post, click the "Manage Attachments" button, and upload the images from your computer (up to five images per post, up to 1024x768, 500KB per image). That's it.

Please attach a screenshot of the Device Manager too (in Control Panel > Hardware and Sound), like this. I'd like to see what sound controllers are there.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138998&stc=1&d=1239044581

renethx

04-06-09, 03:12 PM

My question has to do with setting this server up as a RAID 5 server. I’m wondering if the RAID setup is supported by the HBA you suggested or is it done via the Bios on the MB or am I completely using the wrong setup to create a RAID 5 server? I’ve setup HP servers before, but they are an entirely different animal. I just want to be sure that I’m specing the right items for this server. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Hardware RAID 5 is not supported by the above system. You will have to add a RAID controller card as I mentioned in Workstation. (RAID 5 array of six HDDs using ICH9R is still possible, though.) Software RAID 5 is possible with Windows Server or Linux (or more).

Hogweed75

04-06-09, 03:22 PM

ADVICE ON NEW SERVER!

I am putting together my first server using the Athena Power CA-SWH02BH202 Black Steel Pedestal Server Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811192080R) . Got a great "open box" price on it and couldn't resist.
I am going to use Windows Home Server 32 bit and was considering the SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SBE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182142) MB but after talking to their tech support they don't know if it will work with WHS. Has anyone tried it?

I am considering scaling back to something more like what renethx has listed as a MB on the 20TB (21 HDD) System but I've already purchase a Q6600 to use with it so I want to find an ATX MB that will work well. This will incorporate two SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815121009) cards.

I was wondering if more like the ASRock P45R2000-WiFi (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157131) and using two of the SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 in the standard PCI slots would work? Or maybe something from Gigabyte?

This will be media server and for backing up a couple of in-home computers. Streamming DVD's, Blu-ray's, music, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Will this work all right?

renethx

04-06-09, 03:46 PM

dbone1026

04-06-09, 03:47 PM

Renethx - you listed out several TV Tuner cards in your guide. I have the hdhomerun but it does not pick up my analog channels (espn, disney, etc...) so I was thinking about picking up an internal tv tuner card. Out of the ones you listed any in particular you recommend? Thanks.

Michael Mitten

04-06-09, 04:07 PM

renethx

04-06-09, 04:25 PM

renethx

04-06-09, 04:36 PM

Renethx,

I was wondering if you would consider coming up with a list of smaller media servers setup ideas on page 85. 16 HDDs could seem a bit overwhelming to those thinking about building their first server. I know it is to me! I went over to the thread about servers and it made my head spin. I like how you have everything laid out on pg 85 and has really helped me figure out what I wanted in a HTPC.

Maybe you could do a 4HDD and 8HDD setups for those of us just starting out? I think a lot of us noobs would appreciate your time and effort on something like that.

Also, what do you think about using a SSD for the O/S on either the HTPC or server?
Well, building a server for achiving files and streaming media should not be difficult. Just use spare parts sitting around your house to build a 4-8 HDD machine and install any OS you have. :) I still recommend a mb with Gb LAN for streaming HD contents.

SSD is promising for performance users, but price is still a bottleneck. (A normal HTPC does not need SSD performance, even WD 5400 rpm is enough.;))

Hogweed75

04-06-09, 04:37 PM

MBD-X7SBE works fine with WHS (for example, this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15403652#post15403652)). Basically any mb with two PCI slots also should work fine. Performance is good enough for streaming media.

Thanks very much renethx! Funny that the Supermicro tech support didn't know if WHS would work. They just said to use the server standard version. Way too expensive for what I need.

I would think that the SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SBE with a Q6600, 8GB of RAM and two SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 would be very fast and ready for about anything I decided to do in the future? But these MB's are expensive! If I just went with the ASRock P45R2000-WiFi MB (or something) and put the SATA cards in the PCI slot would there be any real disadvantages for my usage?

renethx

04-06-09, 04:41 PM

Thanks very much renethx! Funny that the Supermicro tech support didn't know if WHS would work. They just said to use the server standard version. Way too expensive for what I need.

I would think that the SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SBE with a Q6600, 8GB of RAM and two SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 would be very fast and ready for about anything I decided to do in the future? But these MB's are expensive! If I just went with the ASRock P45R2000-WiFi MB (or something) and put the SATA cards in the PCI slot would there be any real disadvantages for my usage?
Yeah, PCI is enough for WHS.

rhinogooner

04-06-09, 04:51 PM

This is normal. It's the difference between base 2 and base 10. See here:
http://compreviews.about.com/od/storage/a/ActualHDSizes.htm

Good enough. I read the article and I understand the reasoning now. Thanks hgeblome!

Hogweed75

04-06-09, 05:06 PM

Yeah, PCI is enough for WHS.

Thanks very much! Maybe I will just go ahead with a standard PCI board then.

I appreciate all your help!

rshanti

04-06-09, 05:52 PM

Hardware RAID 5 is not supported by the above system. You will have to add a RAID controller card as I mentioned in Workstation. (RAID 5 array of six HDDs using ICH9R is still possible, though.) Software RAID 5 is possible with Windows Server or Linux (or more).

Thanks Renethx... Now I'm thinking I'll go with a non-RAID setup. The cost differential seems pretty high and I don't really see too much advantage. On a related but seperate note, do you have any recommendations for backing up TB's of data (Bluray's, DVD's, Music files, etc.)? Seems like I'll end up with quite a bit of content when I'm done with all my rips, etc. and I'd sure hate to have to start over again. Any suggestions would be great... :)

dbone1026

04-06-09, 07:38 PM

Thanks Renethx... Now I'm thinking I'll go with a non-RAID setup. The cost differential seems pretty high and I don't really see too much advantage. On a related but seperate note, do you have any recommendations for backing up TB's of data (Bluray's, DVD's, Music files, etc.)? Seems like I'll end up with quite a bit of content when I'm done with all my rips, etc. and I'd sure hate to have to start over again. Any suggestions would be great... :)

You can go with WHS. Set up your shared folders for duplication to ensure that your data is protected. Plus, WHS operates under JBOD so you can mix and match HDD sizes. I have an HP MediaSmart Server and 8 x1TB Western Digital GP HDDs with my media shared and duplicated

htman#1

04-07-09, 07:38 AM

Problem solved!

The issue turned out to be a VNC mirror driver. I use RealVNC so that I can manage my HTPC from my desktop pc in another room, which is much easier on the back than being hunched over the coffee table. Funny thing is, uninstalling the mirror driver had no effect on the performance of the VNC program. After a month of trials and tribulations everything is good.

About 8 weeks ago I built a system with the below listed components. Almost the exact high end ATX system suggested by renethx.

I'm expreriencing video tearing to the point that the picture is borderline unwatchable.

I'm using PowerDVD 8.0 Ultra for the player, but have experimented with Directshow and VLC. Both exibited similar tearing. Even tried PowerDVD 9.0

I initially installed XP, but have since installed Vista Ultimate 64. I read somewhere that Vista would solve the tearing problem. Unfortunately it did not.

I'm running J. River Media Center for the frontend. I've used both VMR9 and EVR renderers and neither seem to have an effect on the tearing.

Is there any chance that I have a defective video card?

I've got way to many hours in trying solve this problem and could really use a hand in troubleshooting this.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Hardware:
CPU: Core 2 Quad Q8300 2.50GHz LGA775
CPU Cooler: Zalman CNPS9500A LED
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA775 Intel P45 chipset ATX
Memory: A-DATA ADQVE1B16K DDR2-800 2 x 2GB Kit
Graphics Card: HIS H485QT512P Radeon HD 4850 GDDR3 512MB
PSU: Corsair CMPSU-620HX 620 PWR SPPLY

Other info:
Bios settings are all default
Running Catalyst 9.2 for Vista 64
AnyDVD and CloneDVD for ripping
Wait for Vertical Sync in Catalyst does not seem to have an effect.
Enabling hardware acceleration in PowerDVD does not seem to have an effect.

Problem solved. The issue turned out to be a VNC mirror driver. I use RealVNC so that I can manage my HTPC from my desktop pc in another room, which is much easier on the back than being hunched over the coffee table. Funny thing is, uninstalling the mirror driver had no effect on the performance of the VNC program. After a month of trials and tribulations everything is good.

andross77

04-07-09, 09:15 AM

Thanks for all the input guys, especially renethx. I don't have screenshots and i never got it to work. But the guy at Geek Squad worked on my comp for 2 hours and moved some stuff around and popped my soundblaster card back in :) I LOVE Geek Squad. That's the second time i have gotten their help for over an hour with zero charge.

He also downloaded the latest soundblaster drivers that hadn't been updated in 3 years :) That was 40mb. And the latest ATI 4830 drivers which i find funny since i bought and installed the card like 3 days ago. It was sad though because the 1gb of Kingston ram i got from Newegg was corrupt. So i have to send it back today and get a new one.

My issue came down to Vista did not support the audio drivers for my onboard sound. When the Geek Squad guy tried ot download the drivers for XP, they didn't work. So i think if i would have had a fresh install of XP, we could have got it working. But i was not interested in doing that ;)

Thanks again guys.

ooblivion

04-07-09, 09:44 AM

Iteki

04-07-09, 10:25 AM

I've been watching this thread for a while and I thought it was time to build my own HTPC.

I currently have an SD TV and an original Xbox that I run xbmc on. I use xbmc to stream all my movies, tv shows, pictures and music from my NAS hard drive. But I just bought a Samsung LN52A650 52" LCD TV and I know that little Xbox won't have the juice to run full 1080p.

So what I'm shooting for is a HTPC with these goals in mind:
- Run xbmc to play 1080p video and audio through HDMI to the TV (streamed from the NAS over ethernet)
- output 5.1 sound either coax or digital audio to my receiver (does not have HDMI input)
- Play blue ray disks
- Be cheap cheap cheap!

I don't need to encode (I have a desktop for that) or play games or much of anything else. I just want the cheapest HTPC that will stream well from my NAS. I have a copy of XP that I can use until Windows 7 comes out.

So I used one of the micro-ATX low-end setup to get this:
- LBlu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-H20L ($110)
- IN WIN BL641.300TBL MicroATX Slim Case ($70)
- MSI P7NGM-Digital LGA 775 NVIDIA GeForce 9300 HDMI Micro ATX Intel Motherboard ($110)
- Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core ($70)
- A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 ($27)
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3160813AS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive ($40)
- Anyware GP-IR01BK Windows Vista Infrared MCE Black Remote Control ($25)

Total: $452

That's a cheaper case than was listed.

So my question is: is there anywhere that I can cut some more corners to get this system a little cheaper? Should I cut corners?

Thank you all for the excellent help!

I don't know how much external storage you might have...but 160GB is fine for OS. If you DON'T have an external drive then you'll need to get one or bump up that 160 to at least 1TB.

dbone1026

04-07-09, 10:44 AM

I don't know how much external storage you might have...but 160GB is fine for OS. If you DON'T have an external drive then you'll need to get one or bump up that 160 to at least 1TB.

I think ooblivion mentioned he would be streaming from his NAS so it appears that the HTPC is being used solely as an extender, the 160GB should be more then enough.

ooblivion

04-07-09, 12:29 PM

I think ooblivion mentioned he would be streaming from his NAS so it appears that the HTPC is being used solely as an extender, the 160GB should be more then enough.

Yes, I've got a 1.5TB NAS so I only need it as an extender. I could get a 80Gig drive for about $5 cheaper. Maybe I should hunt around for even just a 40Gig. But it seems like I won't save that much on the HD.

I suppose I could wait until the blue ray drives drop in price (although $109 seems pretty low already) and just get a DVD player for about $25, saving about $90....

Hmmm

Hogweed75

04-07-09, 02:01 PM

In order to be ready for whatever I do in the future I've decided to go with the following setup for a media server for all of my DVD, Blu-ray and FLAC music files as well as backing up the computers in the house. I'll be doing all the ripping from the HTPC's and dumping them to the server. No ripping on the server as it will be in a large ventilated closet.

Athena Power CA-SWH02BH202 Server Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811192080R) $246.00
TYAN S5211G2NR LGA 775 Intel 3210 ATX Server MB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151172)
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115018)
SIGMA MONSTER SP850C 850W PS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817226009)
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F DT HD502IJ 500GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152112) for the main drive
A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211188)
LITE-ON IDE Drive Model DS-8A1P-18C (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106279)
(2) SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 64-bit PCI-X133MHz SATA Controller Cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815121009)
I have (5) Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284) to start with and the case has 20 hot swap bays to build on.

I'll be using WHS 32-bit which I just purchased on sale from Newegg for $89. Do you see any problems with this setup? Is it a good MB?

I noticed on the Tyan website for recommended OS's that they don't list WHS either like Supermicro. From what I understand it's no problem running WHS but then how do you select which OS drivers, etc to use since it's not an option? Would I use Server 2003 32-bit, Server 2008 32-bit drivers or what?

Also. It looks to me like a 1500VA 900 watt UPS would be sufficient for this server once full up. Am I correct or should I move up to something in the 1200 watt range?

Thanks!

Changed the build on 4/8/09 to this:
NORCO RPC-4020 4U Rackmount Server Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811219021) $289.99
SUPERMICRO MBD-PDSME+-O LGA 775 Intel 3010 ATX Server Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182105&Tpk=SUPERMICRO%20MBD-PDSME) Open box $155.79. Only has 4 STA ports but 4 PCI-X slots so I may add another AOC-SAT2-MV8 SATA card later.
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115018)
SIGMA MONSTER SP850C 850W PS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817226009)
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F DT HD502IJ 500GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152112) for the main drive
4GB Kingston 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM ECC Unbuffered DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Intel Certified Server Memory Model KVR667D2E5/2GI (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134622)
LITE-ON IDE Drive Model DS-8A1P-18C (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106279)
(2) SUPERMICRO AOC-SAT2-MV8 64-bit PCI-X133MHz SATA Controller Cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815121009)
I have (5) Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284) to start with and the case has 20 hot swap bays to build on.

hgeblome

04-07-09, 02:18 PM

I'm considering the IN WIN IW-BK623.BN300BL
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811108092
as my HTPC case because I really like the dimensions, and that it takes full sized cards. I'll most likely build the uATX Intel/nvidia system on page 85 with a TV tuner and a bluray player (eventually). I'd like to reserve the option to install a discrete graphics card at some point. Does anyone see any potential issues with this case? Is the power supply decent? I've read that there are no pcie power connectors. Do I need this? They also sell a version called the "Mt. Jade" that seems to be identical. Does anyone know if there is any difference between the two?

renethx

04-07-09, 02:58 PM

Hogweed75

04-07-09, 03:23 PM

You should use Sever 2003 32-bit drivers.

900W UPS should be enough.

Perfect! Thanks again renethx!!!

brandon12777

04-07-09, 04:30 PM

Hey guys can you take a look at my build before I pull the trigger?

CPU: Q8300 (got it laying around)
Memory: 6gb of 6400 (already have)
HD: 640gh (again already have)
Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186162
graphics: onboard
audio: onboard
case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144231

Right now I do not have any type of receiver just crappy TV speakers. So The HTPC can be connected to TV via HDMI or VGA. I will be using it for Hulu, Netflix, and ripped DVD and HD content.

I am trying to keep this as cheap as possible so I need to know if that mobo/IGP will work fine or if I can go even cheaper? or need a little better of one.

Also is using XP going to gimp me in any way? or do I just need to step up and use vista?

Thanks a ton,
Brandon

9volt

04-07-09, 05:38 PM

ClemsonKev

04-07-09, 06:27 PM

I got tv pack 2008 installed on my existing vista64 pc with no issues. I love qam of my Hauppauge 950q in WMC.

Will I have a driver issue or WMC Tuner issue if I get another 950q?

snails07

04-08-09, 01:14 AM

Wow, I looked at this thread about 6 months ago and it is quite unreal how much the price of all this gear has come down!
I might actually build myself one very, very soon...:D

TiaoMacaleh

04-08-09, 01:47 AM

Hi there.

I have an Athlon X2 5200+, my cooler makes terrible noise. Is there any fanless solution for it?

I tried to find the scynthe ninja, but couldnt find it avaible here to buy. Do you recommend another silence cooler?

renethx

04-08-09, 05:19 AM

renethx

04-08-09, 05:23 AM

Will any of the recommended systems on page 85 struggle to playback Hulu streams on a 50" LCD? I understand it is a major processor hog and I want my next machine to play Hulu content smoothly.

My current pc (old P4) just barely does the job and is constantly running near 100% processor util. I'm tempted to throw a ton of processor at the problem but the $400 price point of the low end systems is very tempting.
May or may not struggle. There are many factors (other than the hardware components of HTPC) that influence smooth playback and it's hard to say for sure. In general mid-range CPU or higher should be safe.

renethx

04-08-09, 05:24 AM

Will I have a driver issue or WMC Tuner issue if I get another 950q?
No problem.

renethx

04-08-09, 05:25 AM

d60pdp

04-08-09, 07:19 AM

Athena Power CA-SWH02BH202 Server Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811192080R) $246.00
I have (5) Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284) to start with and the case has 20 hot swap bays to build on.

I think you've made the wrong choice here. This case used 2.5" SATA HDD, not 3.5". You might want to get a $289.99 rackmount Norco 4020 (20-bay) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811219021&Tpk=norco%204020) or this $256.99 Athena with only 8-bay (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811192058).

ClemsonKev

04-08-09, 09:31 AM

No problem.

Thank you.
Can you tell me how WMC will label the 2 analog and 2 QAM tuners?
I want to be sure that when I schedule 2 QAM recordings WMC knows to use each of the tuners so one recording doesn't fail.

vanylapep

04-08-09, 09:59 AM

Renethx,

Do you have any opinion on the video quality of the WD TV Media Player compared to HTPCs?

In short, is the video outputted by the WDTV crappier than HTPCs?

johnxxsmith

04-08-09, 10:05 AM

Didnt notice this thread at first, so maybe shoud have asked the questions here (link to othe other post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16216154#post16216154))

Havent build a pc before so unsure what to get.

Trying to get a htpc\server on a budget.

Its important it works from the start on a lcd tv with dvi-i\hdmi since i dont have any other monitors with vga.

Wireless for streaming to ps3 and backup machine for laptops.

The shopping list is so far:

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4850E
Antec NSK1380 (http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MzA=)
Asus WL-138g V2 (http://www.asus.com/Product.aspx?P_ID=zFAQkGgBuVPEYq6A&content=specifications)
GeIL Value DDR2-800 2048 MB
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H

Samsung SH-S223F DVD Burner
Samsung Spinpoint F1 1 TB

The cabinet should come with a fan and 350 Watt power.
The cpu should come with the cooler\fan ?
the board should come with two SATA 3Gb/s cables, for the burner and hd.

how does this look?

Hogweed75

04-08-09, 10:23 AM

I think you've made the wrong choice here. This case used 2.5" SATA HDD, not 3.5". You might want to get a $289.99 rackmount Norco 4020 (20-bay) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811219021&Tpk=norco%204020) or this $256.99 Athena with only 8-bay (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811192058).

WOW! Thanks for calling that out. I could of sworn it was for 3.5" drives. I was going to get the Norco until I saw this open box unit and thought what a great deal. Now I see why. Guess I'll just go back to the Norco. I don't see any 20+ bay tower style cases in the same price range.

Thanks for catching that for me!

hgeblome

04-08-09, 11:36 AM

ilovejedd

04-08-09, 11:37 AM

In short, is the video outputted by the WDTV crappier than HTPCs?
I don't have a WDTV, but I remember reading it uses the same chipset as the Popcorn Hour. That being the case, I'd have to deduce video output from HTPCs is crappier than the WDTV, at least with default settings.

dbone1026

04-08-09, 12:21 PM

A look at the NVidia Ion-based Acer, wow:

http://hothardware.com/News/First-NVIDIA-Ion-Win-Announced-Acer-AspireRevo/

melodic

04-08-09, 03:15 PM

hey guys, i'm looking into building an HTPC for with an antec fusion black case.. the sole purpose of this will be to play blu ray rip MKVs. i'm not big on sound as i will be using a crappy sound system to play them anyway..

i've been looking into motherboards with onboard GPUs capable of MKV playback with minimal cpu usage..and so far have only seen the Intel G45s.

i was wondering if you guys can recommend me some other alternatives and maybe some cheap CPUs to combo with it..thanks!

renethx

04-08-09, 03:19 PM

Please excuse the repost. Just wondering if there are any experts with opinions on this case...
You'd better start your own thread. I guess not so many "experts" are reading this thread. :)

renethx

04-08-09, 03:22 PM

davegod75

04-08-09, 03:54 PM

are there any dvd players out there quiet enough to replace my stand alone dvd player. Every computer dvd drive I have ever owned sounds like a jet engine when playing a movie.

Thanks

melodic

04-08-09, 03:54 PM

thank you! i didn't realize the recommendations were so up to date. :D

Gertt

04-08-09, 05:43 PM

renethx

04-08-09, 05:59 PM

Hi everybody,

I'm sorry to bother you, but I'm a bit confused :)
Picking my own parts, no problem... But a friend of mine is selling his system and I can't quite figure out for sure if it would work well as HTPC. So I thought I'd ask here...

Here is the system...

CORSAIR TWINX DDR2 2048MB PC6400 XMS2
ASUS M2A-VM HDMI SOCKET M2
AMD BE-2400 X2 64BIT DUAL-CORE PROCESSOR AM2
ASUS EN8500GT SILENT
(ANTEC NSK1380 HTPC CASE)

I'd like to hear some opinions if you guys would be so kind :)
It the above system is good or not in price/performance depends on the price he wants to sell it at. A couple of cons are:

- MB is outdated. There is no CPU upgrade path.
- CPU is a bit slow (2.3GHz is not bad though).
- GPU is weak in post-processing. For example, you may have to upgrade it if you want good 1080i watching experience.
- No HDMI audio support except for S/PDIF pass-through (if it matters for you)

ClemsonKev

04-08-09, 06:29 PM

Actually, I may want to pick up the WinTV-HVR-1950 by Hauppauge for my 2nd tuner (along with the 950q).
http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1192-HVR-1950-External-Recorder/dp/B00198MYB0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239229733&sr=8-1

I assume b/c this does it's own decoding, it might do better than the 950q and not bother the CPU. Everyone agree? (FYI, no room for an internal tuner if you are wondering).

It looks like the driver for the existing 950q is also the same for the WinTV-HVR-1950.... so, will I have a problem should I add the WinTV-HVR-1950 to my system with the 950q??

thanks in advance! ;)

Love the fact Hauppauge has QAM working in WMC w/ TV Pack 2008!:D

renethx

04-08-09, 06:48 PM

nickbrown24

04-08-09, 06:52 PM

Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience of any i7 core low profile heatsinks and fans such as the Nexus Low-7000? I have the i7 920.

Are there any upcoming from the likes of zalman?

Regards

Nick

jmabra

04-08-09, 07:15 PM

I've been reading the thread for awhile and finally decided to plan on building a HTPC. What I will need is:

1. Capture/record and playback HD and SD video from a basic cable line or antenna (not sure if I'm keeping Time Warner yet).

2. Playback Blu-ray/HDDVD in 1080p on a 46" LCD TV

3. Stream Hulu and other online video sources

4. Slimline HTPC case that will fit in a tv stand (wife's demands). A MicroAtx board is what I'm shooting for.

I've already bought the Intel Quad Core 2 Q8200 processor on sale. I know that was a little overkill but maybe down the line I will need to expand and make it a light to midrange gaming unit. Can you recommend a good (hopefully cheap) microATX motherboard with a solid onboard graphics card and any other components I will need (how much RAM, extra video card, etc.)? Thanks a lot.

I guess my budget is $250, roughly, not including the processor I just bought.

renethx

04-08-09, 07:21 PM

I've been reading the thread for awhile and finally decided to plan on building a HTPC. What I will need is:

1. Capture/record and playback HD and SD video from a basic cable line or antenna (not sure if I'm keeping Time Warner yet).

2. Playback Blu-ray/HDDVD in 1080p on a 46" LCD TV

3. Stream Hulu and other online video sources

4. Slimline HTPC case that will fit in a tv stand (wife's demands). A MicroAtx board is what I'm shooting for.

I've already bought the Intel Quad Core 2 Q8200 processor on sale. I know that was a little overkill but maybe down the line I will need to expand and make it a light to midrange gaming unit. Can you recommend a good (hopefully cheap) microATX motherboard with a solid onboard graphics card and any other components I will need (how much RAM, extra video card, etc.)? Thanks a lot.

I guess my budget is $300, roughly, not including the processor I just bought.
Audio requirement? HDMI, S/PDIF or analog?

jmabra

04-08-09, 07:25 PM

Top notch audio is not a requirement right now... maybe in the future. But I do need some sort of sound for just the tv speakers. Whatever is cheaper. I also changed the total to $250 instead of $300 with $300 being my absolute max.

Edit: And sorry, HDMI for video is a must. If HDMI will do both video and sound from the onboard graphics card, that is a plus and something I would prefer over the other 2.

renethx

04-08-09, 07:38 PM

jmabra

04-08-09, 07:51 PM

The mATX low-end Intel/NVIDIA system should be good for you. You can use Q8200 with no problem.

Thanks renethx. I also had one more question... which of the following tuner device do you prefer between the 2 you recommended for SD/HD recording?

Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 or
Silicondust HDHomeRun

renethx

04-08-09, 07:57 PM

Thanks renethx. I also had one more question... which of the following tuner device do you prefer between the 2 you recommended for SD/HD recording?

Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 or
Silicondust HDHomeRun
Each has its own merit and demerit. HDHomeRun has two input; does not support analog. HVR-2250 has only one TV input (still dual); supports analog. So it's up to you ...

renethx

04-08-09, 09:49 PM

Its important it works from the start on a lcd tv with dvi-i\hdmi since i dont have any other monitors with vga.

Wireless for streaming to ps3 and backup machine for laptops.

The shopping list is so far:

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4850E
Antec NSK1380 (http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MzA=)
Asus WL-138g V2 (http://www.asus.com/Product.aspx?P_ID=zFAQkGgBuVPEYq6A&content=specifications)
GeIL Value DDR2-800 2048 MB
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H

Samsung SH-S223F DVD Burner
Samsung Spinpoint F1 1 TB

The cabinet should come with a fan and 350 Watt power.
The cpu should come with the cooler\fan ?
the board should come with two SATA 3Gb/s cables, for the burner and hd.

how does this look?
Looks good. Wireless may not be reliable for streaming HD contents.

stewdadon

04-08-09, 09:51 PM

If I was to build one the the Home Media Servers on page 85 would it stream 1080p HD movies or would I need to add better hardware into my setup?

renethx

04-08-09, 09:54 PM

If I was to build one the the Home Media Servers on page 85 would it stream 1080p HD movies or would I need to add better hardware into my setup?
Streaming 1080p contents is no problem (it's one of the main purposes of these servers).

hgeblome

04-08-09, 10:21 PM

You'd better start your own thread. I guess not so many "experts" are reading this thread. :)

Thanks rene. I guess you're the only real expert here ;).

mutambo

04-09-09, 03:17 AM

I have a dual CPU AMD socket f ATX board is lying around and trying to convert it as a HTPC, i know its way over kill but even if i plan it to sell at cheap and buy some thing else at reasonable price, it will end up being more expensive and less powerful so decided to use this setup.

I was thinking, if this is too powerful and resource hungry then shut the second CPU and it will be a normal AMD ATX board, am i giving pass to any potential issues ?

Read rene's guide and enquired about CM Media cases but so far no luck no one is carrying those, except Antec Fusion Max ATX case.(my budget is around $150 USD)

What you all think about this setup, will it be too loud for HTPC or any over heating issues will come up in future ?

Only other way is i need to put this for sale.

johnxxsmith

04-09-09, 04:52 AM

Looks good. Wireless may not be reliable for streaming HD contents.

im able to "just" stream 720p content from 1000h netbook to the ps3, but will use the dvi for the hd content.

changed the memory to Corsair TWIN2X DDR2-800 4096MB KIT (2x2048)

stupid question, but do i need two sata power cables for the hard drive and dvd burner?

the Antec NSK1380 comes with a powersupply. ive read both nsk1380 and Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H manuals, and it doesnt say where to connect the sata power cords.

im about to order everything from the same online shop.

renethx

04-09-09, 05:10 AM

renethx

04-09-09, 05:47 AM

but do i need two sata power cables for the hard drive and dvd burner?

the Antec NSK1380 comes with a powersupply. ive read both nsk1380 and Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H manuals, and it doesnt say where to connect the sata power cords.
Yes. PSU comes with SATA power connectors. If not enough, you can use SATA power adapters (http://www.google.com/products?q=SATA+power+adapter).

gunbunnysoulja

04-09-09, 08:21 AM

Does the GIGABYTE GA-E7AUM-DS2H support video over VGA and MPCM over HDMI (via clone)?

johnxxsmith

04-09-09, 09:45 AM

Yes. PSU comes with SATA power connectors. If not enough, you can use SATA power adapters (http://www.google.com/products?q=SATA+power+adapter).

thanks.

Just placed the order for all that stuff. after what ive read its where the power from sata drives are supposed to go im afraid of.

And ofcourse putting it altogether.. Hopefully i can do it during a weekend.

ooblivion

04-09-09, 11:33 AM

I've been watching this thread for a while and I thought it was time to build my own HTPC.

I currently have an SD TV and an original Xbox that I run xbmc on. I use xbmc to stream all my movies, tv shows, pictures and music from my NAS hard drive. But I just bought a Samsung LN52A650 52" LCD TV and I know that little Xbox won't have the juice to run full 1080p.

So what I'm shooting for is a HTPC with these goals in mind:
- Run xbmc to play 1080p video and audio through HDMI to the TV (streamed from the NAS over ethernet)
- output 5.1 sound either coax or digital audio to my receiver (does not have HDMI input)
- Play blue ray disks
- Be cheap cheap cheap!

I don't need to encode (I have a desktop for that) or play games or much of anything else. I just want the cheapest HTPC that will stream well from my NAS. I have a copy of XP that I can use until Windows 7 comes out.

So I used one of the micro-ATX low-end setup to get this:
- LBlu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-H20L ($110)
- IN WIN BL641.300TBL MicroATX Slim Case ($70)
- MSI P7NGM-Digital LGA 775 NVIDIA GeForce 9300 HDMI Micro ATX Intel Motherboard ($110)
- Intel Pentium E5200 Wolfdale 2.5GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core ($70)
- A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 ($27)
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3160813AS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive ($40)
- Anyware GP-IR01BK Windows Vista Infrared MCE Black Remote Control ($25)

Total: $452

That's a cheaper case than was listed.

So my question is: is there anywhere that I can cut some more corners to get this system a little cheaper? Should I cut corners?

Thank you all for the excellent help!

I did some looking around and have another system setup that seems cheaper.

- ASUS M3N78-VM AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX AMD ($73)
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 5050e Brisbane 2.6GHz Socket AM2 45W Dual-Core Processor ($66)
- Rosewill R379-SM MicroATX Slim Case ($55)
- LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-H20L ($110)
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3160813AS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive ($40)
- A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ($27)

Total: $371

- Does this seem like a good compromise to get the price down?
- It looks like this board has optical audio out - so that would add one feature that the above setup does not have.

Any comments?

Thanks!

Iteki

04-09-09, 11:36 AM

Gizmodo's ION (http://i.gizmodo.com/5204432/acer-revo-and-nvidia-ion-hands-on-flawless-blu+ray-playback-changes-cheap-computers-forever) hands on.

I know it's somewhat off topic, as it goes against the grain of building your own, but I think something like this would be great as a 2nd HTPC that simply streamed content over a gigabit connection from your main HTPC or server.

The only video it choked on was HD internet video from Hulu and youtube, since that is CPU based. They are hoping that Flash and Silverlight add hardware acceleration soon, as that would make this platform nearly perfect for HD playback.

If the price was right, I'd definitely consider it.

renethx

04-09-09, 11:45 AM

I did some looking around and have another system setup that seems cheaper.

- ASUS M3N78-VM AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 HDMI Micro ATX AMD ($73)
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 5050e Brisbane 2.6GHz Socket AM2 45W Dual-Core Processor ($66)
- Rosewill R379-SM MicroATX Slim Case ($55)
- LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-H20L ($110)
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3160813AS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive ($40)
- A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ($27)

Total: $371

- Does this seem like a good compromise to get the price down?
- It looks like this board has optical audio out - so that would add one feature that the above setup does not have.

Any comments?

Thanks!
GeForce 8200 is inferior to GeForce 9300. This is clear when watching HDTV 1080i. So if this is a good compromie or not depends on you.

As I wrote here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85#Peripheral), you can build a coaxial bracket at < $7 if you need an external coaxial S/PDIF connector.

ooblivion

04-09-09, 12:39 PM

GeForce 8200 is inferior to GeForce 9300. This is clear when watching HDTV 1080i. So if this is a good compromie or not depends on you.

Ah - well that's the info I needed. I don't want any hickups when watching 1080i (or p for that matter). Might as well spend the extra $60 - since that's what I'm building this system for, anyway.

As I wrote here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85#Peripheral), you can build a coaxial bracket at < $7 if you need an external coaxial S/PDIF connector.

Since that other Intel board has S/PDIF out (for an extra $20 over the same board that doesn't have it) I might as well use that.

Thanks for all your help, Renethx!

vanylapep

04-09-09, 04:12 PM

I don't have a WDTV, but I remember reading it uses the same chipset as the Popcorn Hour. That being the case, I'd have to deduce video output from HTPCs is crappier than the WDTV, at least with default settings.

AMAZING surprise! WDTV better than HTPC. Thanks!! :)

I own one.

Decept

04-09-09, 04:35 PM

I've been a long time reader of this thread, great info.
I currently have a HTPC with a Core 2 Duo 2.13GHz with an nVidia 8800GTX 768MB. The card has no support for h246 acceleration and I'm about to sell it. I'm mainly looking at buying a Radeon 4650, 4670 or 4850. I can get any of these for the money I get for selling the old card. But I don't have a lot of cash so cheaper is better.
I used to play games on the machine but now I always play on my xbox360 and only watch movies (mkv, blu-ray, dvd) on it.
So I'm thinking of going for the 4650 or 4670. I would really like to buy at the local store instead of ordering online, so I can get the new card as soon as I sell the old one. Trouble is the selection is poor. I can choose from either Saphire 4650 (11140-02-20R) or Asus 4670 (EAH6470). I've read here that both these cards are considered a little loud, but I don't think that is a problem. The machine has an Antec P80 chassi and is in a ventilated closet.

My main consern is the number or ports and how cramped they are fitted.

The Asus 4670 has 3 ports hdmi/vga/dvi, but I'm worried that they are too close to each other.

There is much more room on the Saphire 4650, it has dvi and vga. It seems rather limiting to only have 1 digital port.

Or should I order online and get one with 2 dvi ports. That gives the most flexibility as they come with both dvi->vga and dvi->hdmi converters.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

qthai99

04-09-09, 06:03 PM

I would like to assemble a mini-ITX.
I Have:
Q8200 with Stock fan
2 X 2 Corsair 800 DDR2
Seagate 1.5 TB drive
Will this work?
Zotac GF9300 mini-ITX
Apex MI-100
Bluray Drive

Thanks,
qthai

keodark

04-09-09, 06:14 PM

Hey all,

I've been having a number of problems with my new OTA + HDHR setup w/SageTV on winXP. I thought maybe you experts here could help me with a possible solution.

Fox here comes in around 85-95% signal strength on my preamped indoor antenna. Usually this is flawless, but occasionally the signal drops low enough to pixellate (green and orange squares), stutter, and crash the ATI driver. It drops to minimum resolution, low colors, and gives the following error dialog:

"Windows - Display Driver Stopped Responding

The ati2dvag display driver has stopped working normally. Save your work and reboot the system to restore full display functionality. The next time you reboot the machine a dialog will be displayed giving you a chance to upload data about this failure to Microsoft."

This requires a reboot (machine freezes). This is repeatable, now, by watching the recorded show at the point at which the error occurred. (Video file corrupted?)

I tried uninstalling & reinstalling the ati driver. (I already had the latest). The Omega Drivers appear to be outdated (don't support HD4x?). Anyone have another solution?

Thanks!
-Nathan

qthai99

04-09-09, 06:45 PM

I forgot to mention I want to use Vista Media Center through HDMI to receiver to 60" 1080p plasma at 60/24 hz. Mostly for movies and music server, some gaming.

I would like to assemble a mini-ITX.
I Have:
Q8200 with Stock fan
2 X 2 Corsair 800 DDR2
Seagate 1.5 TB drive
Will this work?
Zotac GF9300 mini-ITX
Apex MI-100
Bluray Drive

Thanks,
qthai

hgeblome

04-09-09, 06:56 PM

I'm considering the the ASUS P5N7A-VM motherboard because I can get it for about $35 less than the recommended Gigabyte board. I've read in the 'Official Thread' about the GPU getting hot and various problems with getting sound through HDMI. I would like to send 5.1 sound through HDMI to my TV and then out from the TV to my AVR using an optical cable (I currently do this with my DVD player without any problems). Questions:

1. Are the problems with sound through HDMI specific to this board, or are these issues general to the Nvidia 9300/9400 boards?
2. Is the heat issue a deal breaker?
3. Am I losing any features by going with this board over the Gigabyte? (Is this Gigabyte worth the extra $35?)

Thanks for your help!

renethx

04-09-09, 08:38 PM

renethx

04-09-09, 08:45 PM

I would like to assemble a mini-ITX.
I Have:
Q8200 with Stock fan
2 X 2 Corsair 800 DDR2
Seagate 1.5 TB drive
Will this work?
Zotac GF9300 mini-ITX
Apex MI-100
Bluray Drive

Thanks,
qthai
Yes.

davegod75

04-10-09, 03:27 AM

are there any dvd players out there quiet enough to replace my stand alone dvd player. Every computer dvd drive I have ever owned sounds like a jet engine when playing a movie.

Thanks

Marc_G

04-10-09, 08:01 AM

Hi folks,

What an awesome thread!

I've learned a lot from reading a fair portion of it. One point still confuses me: if I understand correctly, handling 1080i seems to be "harder" than 1080p in some ways. I want to make sure I get the right stuff.

My preference is for an integrated graphics chip but I'll do a separate board if need be... What I want to do is:

-MicroATX form factor
-Outputting to a Pioneer 1080i 50" display (HDMI)
-Audio 7+1 to an Onkyo TXSR603 via optical TOSlink

-Streaming internet HD/SD content
-Viewing DVD/BluRay & ripping to hard disk for later viewing
-Will have a dual-tuner OTA PVR functionality.

The micro-ATX AMD/AMD mid-range system on page 85 looks pretty good but I was wondering if there was a good enough motherboard to avoid the separate graphics card?

Marc

renethx

04-10-09, 08:33 AM

Marc_G

04-10-09, 01:22 PM

The system without HD 4670 should be fine for 1080i.

Thanks. After mulling it a bit I decided to up the Motherboard to one with some sideboard RAM. I like to engineer conservatively. Anybody have comments on this system:

GIGABYTE GA-MA790GP-UD4H AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard

AMD Phenom II X3 710 2.6GHz Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Processor Model HDX710WFGIBOX

COOLER MASTER GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler

A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ADQVE1A16K

Antec New Solution NSK2480 Black/Silver 0.8mm cold-rolled steel MicroATX Desktop Computer Case 380W Power Supply

Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 Media Center Kit Dual TV Tuner 1213 PCI-Express x1 Interface

STorage: Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
Boot & Software: Western Digital Caviar SE WD3200AAJS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive

The PSU that comes with the case looks sufficient for my needs. Comments? And is the RAM the best I should do for this application? No need for 1066?

Thanks in advance. As mentioned above, this will go out to a 1080i 50" plasma, and TOSLINK to a 7.1 audio system. DVD/Bluray, internet streaming, and OTA recording. Haven't settled on a Bluray drive yet.

I saved this as a shared NewEgg wish list under the title "MAG HTPC Rev 1" but haven't seen it show up publicly yet <?>.

To trim the spend I'm considering ditching the separate boot drive, and maybe going for a less powerful CPU. Perhaps:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 Cache Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $60 today.
If I go with that processor, what would be the best cooler solution?

Marc

djordan

04-10-09, 05:34 PM

ECS A780GM-A Radeon 3200 IGP Goes Blank!?!...

Built an AMD780G system this week - patterned after the low end recommendation but with substitutions (i.e., I need the 3 PCI's on the ECS board - The recommended Gigabyte has only 2):

----New----
ECS A780GM-A
Athlon X2 7750 (Kuma)
G-Skill 4GB Ram
Corsair 550W PSU
Sony Bluray drive
---Recycled----
Antec Sonata Case
(2) Seagate 400GB PATA drives
MIT MyHD MDP-130 + DVI Daughter card (2 PCI slots - killer PQ for HDTV)
Maddog sound card (for bit-perfect 44.1khz stereo audio via kernel streaming)
Windows XP Pro OS

Amazingly, I was actually watching Blu-ray discs right after the build (The bundled powerdvd sent me to download a "patch" to play the latest releases and I played some titles).

But I'm having an issue with the video cutting out and the screen going blank - sometimes after just a few minutes. It seems to happen fairly randomly with "active" use (video playback usually stays on once it starts right and isn't touched). It's not really related to any specific program as far as I can tell and happens without mechanical movement.

After some experimenting, I'm pretty sure it's related to installation of the video drivers for the IGP Radeon 3200 (I ran an nVidia 6800 Ultra card for a few hours and there was no cutting out) But I also tried two different driver versions (one from the AMD/ATI website and one from the CD, and they both cut out.)

Any ideas appreciated! Thanks

renethx

04-10-09, 11:01 PM

risk1994

04-10-09, 11:36 PM

I just put together the low end amd/adm m/atx system with the discreet passive 4550 card and I have to say Im pretty disappointed in the video quality.

My old machine was a sempron with a 6600gt agp card and the picture from it was noticably sharper and crisper than the 4550. Ive re-installed latest drivers to no avail. Ive experimented with all the options I can find in the control panel with no luck.

The picture is nice, its just that it looks much less crisp and has much less detail than the 6600gt, Ive kept everything I can the same as possible on both systems so Im not sure the issue, would you expect a 6600gt to look better than a 4550 with both sd and hd content?

djordan

04-10-09, 11:49 PM

I also had a 6600GT as my prior card...I built a system this week with the AMD/ATI onboard 3200;
Independent of the issue I'm having with the video blanking out (see my post), I also observe an nVidia - ATI difference. The 6600GT did seem very slightly sharper and ATI somewhat softer and possibly "warmer" in the color range.
I'm wondering if this is possibly less about the quality of the cards and more about the proprietary picture processing used by the respective companies.

nfmmalice

04-10-09, 11:57 PM

I have developed a small problem with my sound...

I am running a gigabyte FX790 UD5 Mobo, and I used to run it S/PDIF outvia the fiber optic cable to my Denon Receiver. I took my HTPC to work for some testing out, and ended up switching it to 2 CHannel STereo out so I could play with headphones.

When I brought it back home, I couldn't figure out how to switch the outs Back to the S/PDIF outs. Not only that, now sound is being transferred to my TV through the HDMI cable.

PRoblem is, sound is going into my TV HDMI, and coming BACK to the receiver through the RCA's. My Volume is only a fraction of what it USED to be when I run a Movie through MediaBrowser/VMC. And if I switch inputs on the TV the OTHER Sources are 40% Higher.

How can I switch the Sound OUtput back to the S/PDIFS? Or SHOULD I be running them HDMI? If so, where can I tweak the sound levels to be more constant with the rest of the system?

renethx

04-11-09, 01:31 AM

renethx

04-11-09, 01:38 AM

@nfmmalice

You can change the sound playback device in the Sound dialog box in Control panel.

a10pkt8

04-11-09, 02:24 AM

Hi,

Newbie looking to get/build a HTPC. I was looking at buying a Video Processor (like DVDO EDGE) and a blu-ray player when someone suggested that a HTPC might be a better alternative. Here is what I'm looking to get out of a HTPC.

1. A CD/DVD/Blu-ray player (ie, blu-ray drive). Possibly even a blu-ray writer/burner.
2. A video processor that accepts non-HD/NTSC/PAL inputs and up converts to 1080p. I have lot of non-HD content.
3. An A/V switch (video primarily). I want to be able to connect output from other video sources (HDMI, DVI, Component, may be even composite audio) to the HTPC and output whatever I want to the TV (a Pioneer PRO141FD). Must handle PAL and NTSC input.

(Also ability to play non-physical media (avi, wmv, mpeg etc.), some storage and ability to expand it. They're a given in HTPC, of course.)

Can I get all these out of a HTPC? Does it make sense to build/buy an HTPC rather than buy the individual pieces (EDGE, blu-ray player and something that can play files files from a USB port)? #2 is a particular concern; an upconverter comparable in quality to DVDO EDGE.

I looked at page 85 briefly but I wanted to make sure I'm on the right path before I dug in deeper.

Finally, are there any stores in or near Santa Clara, CA area where I can go and check things out personally?

Thanks in advance.

renethx

04-11-09, 02:47 AM

#2 is a particular concern; an upconverter comparable in quality to DVDO EDGE.
Sorry I can't answer your question (have never compared with this processor). Perhaps you'd better start a new thread to get better attention (the majority of readers of this thread may be novices). You may be able to find the answer by searching the forum with the keyword "DVDO EDGE".

A/V switch cannot be part of HTPC. You have to use a A/V switch.

I recommend you to read through The Beginner's Guide to the HTPC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=847560) to see what you can do and what you can't do with HTPC.

Damaegus

04-11-09, 11:17 AM

This seems to be the thread to post this question so here goes.

I have an Asus M3N78 Pro with onboard HDMI out via Geforce 8300. Should I bother getting a graphics card? I wont be gaming on my HTPC. Itll be used mostly for video playback, hopefully in 1080p. Also, what are the audio complications with using only onboard audio?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

-D

risk1994

04-11-09, 11:35 AM

@risk1994

Which player/video decoder are you using? Or player/decoder-independent? HD or SD or both? Hardware acceleration on of off? Adjusted Avivo Video (in particular Edge-enhancement and Denoise; set them to 50, 50)? Chosen correct Color Pixel Format?

I use Beyond tv's built in player with its built in decoder and also intervideo decoder. Same software as I had with the 6600gt. I dont see any hardware enable-ing function there. I also dont see one in the catalyst software, I was kind of wondering about that.

Ill try out those settings you list, thanks. Is there a thread or a listing somewhere listing best settings for that card?

djordan

04-11-09, 11:52 AM

I'm ready to buy another board, as I don't know how to troublshoot this cutting out video.

Should I just get a replcament ECS with the 780G / IGP-3200?
Try changing to another *brand* of 780G / IGP-3200, like Asus?
Trying an nVidia IGP board?
a dedicated video card?

Lots of conflicting considerations...

***I really want an IGP [not a gamer, don't need 1080P (yet), lower noise, power and heat, and need space for "want-to-keep-it" the MyHD tuner + DVI daughter cards]

***The Radeon IGP, although not most powerful, is reported to have the more effective hardware acceleration for plaback of h264 VC1 etc. (AVIVO). [Tom's Hardware did a comparison between the Radeon and nVidia - and while the overall CPU utilization was less on the nVidia, the Radeon did not show the spiking CPU demands. And at the margins with the borderline processors, the Radeon was smoother in playback while the nVidia was choppier.]

OTOH

***I'm also trying to get Bit-perfect *44.1khz* audio from the oboard - for pure stereo playback of lossless, FLAC files, and according to the
the "unbiased" HDMI audio thread, the nVidia's can support 192 / 24 flac files - so presumably also the standard 44.1 / 16 ones

Ideas welcome...

Marc_G

04-11-09, 12:48 PM

@Marc_G

The mb is ATX and won't fit NSK2480. The correct mATX mb with SidePort memory is GA-MA78GPM-UD2H.

- Athlon X2 7750 or Phenom II X3
- Geminii S (better for CPU cooling) or Ninja Mini (better for GPU cooling because of better case airflow)
- GA-MA78GPM-UD2H
- G.SKILL F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK DDR2-1066 2 x 2GB Kit or A-DATA ADQVE1A16K DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit.

The rest can be the same as yours.

Thanks Renethx! I goofed on the board; Newegg didn't list the sideport memory for the UD2H so I thought it had none. Thanks for clearing it up. Not sure why I thought the other one was micro-ATX.

I'll be donating to support this thread! It (you!) has saved me a LOT of heartache!

Now I just have to decide on a blue ray player. Quiet, reliable, with DVD burn capability. I see a few recommendations here to check out.

Marc

renethx

04-11-09, 01:01 PM

Thanks Renethx! I goofed on the board; Newegg didn't list the sideport memory for the UD2H so I thought it had none. Thanks for clearing it up. Not sure why I thought the other one was micro-ATX.

I'll be donating to support this thread! It (you!) has saved me a LOT of heartache!

Now I just have to decide on a blue ray player. Quiet, reliable, with DVD burn capability. I see a few recommendations here to check out.
The information of Newegg is wrong (or just missing). GA-MA78GPM-UD2H has a 128MB DDR3 SidePort Memory (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=3016).

renethx

04-11-09, 01:13 PM

renethx

04-11-09, 01:19 PM

tgkx

04-11-09, 01:56 PM

Hey guys I've been reading this thread for a couple weeks and its been very helpful. Can you please sanity check my first HTPC build?

Goals:
Upscale DVD and play Blue-ray HD content into a Infocus 61md10 TV @ 720p with the capability to support full 1080p later. Output digital 5.1 audio to my Pioneer VSX-56TXi using optical spdif. Play downloaded videos and support just about every codec known to man. Play legacy emulated games such as NES, Genesis, Super NES, etc. OS will be Vista Ultimate 32bit.

Specs:

Case: Antec Fusion Remote Black - Includes IR Remote
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 II SS-330GB 330W 80 Plus Certified
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-E7AUM-DS2H
CPU: Intel E5200 Wolfdale 2.5ghz Dual Core Retail
Mem: A-Data 2x2GB ADQVE1B16K
Hard Drive: Western Digital Green WD15EADS 1.5TB
Blueray: LG GGC-H20LK 6x BD-ROM, 16x DVD-R
HDMI Cable: IOGear GHDMI1003W6 9.8ft v1.3b cat-2

Thanks for your help! :)

renethx

04-11-09, 02:02 PM

Hey guys I've been reading this thread for a couple weeks and its been very helpful. Can you please sanity check my first HTPC build?

Goals:
Upscale DVD and play Blue-ray HD content into a Infocus 61md10 TV @ 720p with the capability to support full 1080p later. Output digital 5.1 audio to my Pioneer VSX-56TXi using optical spdif. Play downloaded videos and support just about every codec known to man. Play legacy emulated games such as NES, Genesis, Super NES, etc.

Specs:

Case: Antec Fusion Remote Black - Includes IR Remote
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 II SS-330GB 330W 80 Plus Certified
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-E7AUM-DS2H
CPU: Intel E5200 Wolfdale 2.5ghz Dual Core Retail
Mem: A-Data 2x2GB ADQVE1B16K
Hard Drive: Western Digital Green WD15EADS 1.5TB
Blueray: LG GGC-H20LK 6x BD-ROM, 16x DVD-R
HDMI Cable: IOGear GHDMI1003W6 9.8ft v1.3b cat-2

Thanks for your help! :)
Should be fine.

ASMalachowski

04-11-09, 03:10 PM

Renethx,

I know I've heard you say a couple of times that the 4670 does a better job with post processing than that of the 4550. In respect to these two does the 4650 do as well as the 4670 or is it more along the lines of the 4550? The only reason I ask is because if it does a better job than the 4550 and its roughly the same price why not use that instead. Just looking for your opinion is all.
Thanks

davegod75

04-11-09, 04:15 PM

so no one has a dvd player recommendation?

Damaegus

04-11-09, 06:32 PM

M3N78 Pro is good enough for 1080p. But I recommend a HT 3.0 processor such as Athlon X2 7750 for better overall IGP performance.

Onboard HDMI supports 7.1 LPCM and DD/DTS.

Thanks renethx, for the reply.

I have a Phenom 9600 quad core. Hopefully that fits the bill? I'm also wondering, since I will be using a Zalman HD160xt case with the 7" lcd and I have to use a VGA connector for the screen, will I get dual video out by using VGA to the case and HDMI to my TV from the mobo?

Damaegus

04-11-09, 06:36 PM

so no one has a dvd player recommendation?

I bought a Lite-On Bluray BD-ROM for $99.99 from Newegg. Im not an expert but the specs are great IMO. Not sure about the noise level. Ill let you know.

Davinleeds

04-11-09, 06:49 PM

I'm currently using http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K9N2GM-FIH&class=mb according to your http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13897618#post13897618 and loving that set up.

Can I do the same thing with http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=DKA790GX&class=mb, just with ATI. Or the other side of the coin: http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K9A2GM-FIH&class=mb

Thanks for your help.

renethx

04-11-09, 09:36 PM

renethx

04-11-09, 09:40 PM

I'm also wondering, since I will be using a Zalman HD160xt case with the 7" lcd and I have to use a VGA connector for the screen, will I get dual video out by using VGA to the case and HDMI to my TV from the mobo?
Yes.

renethx

04-11-09, 09:45 PM

Davinleeds

04-11-09, 10:28 PM

Yes. You will see two ATI HDMI audio devices in Control Panel. Of course you won't want to use the HDMI from HD3200/3300.

I won't see three displays like the 8200? One to display, one to AVR, one to Projector?

renethx

04-11-09, 10:34 PM

I won't see three like the 8200? One to display, one to AVR, one to Projector?
Two HDMI audio sound playback devices in the Sound dialog box, and of couse four displays in CCC.

Davinleeds

04-11-09, 10:38 PM

Thanks.
Of the two ati mb's which would be preferable? As for 4, I couldn't see or tell if dvi or vga was enabled along with discrete and hdmi.

renethx

04-11-09, 11:25 PM

Thanks.
Of the two ati mb's which would be preferable? As for 4, I couldn't see or tell if dvi or vga was enabled along with discrete and hdmi.
Either mb should be good (one is ATX and SB750, the other mATX).

Usually if you select "enable onchip VGA always on", you will see four displays, and those that are not connected to a display will be grayed out.

esplendido

04-12-09, 03:23 AM

So, is there a currently available mATX motherboard that is capable of 7.1 LPCM and 1080p video over the same HDMI port?

I am new to this, and would prefer one HDMI cable for everything.

(Edit: Or Video Card?)

davegod75

04-12-09, 09:22 AM

4650 should be close to 4670. A card like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102829) may be a better alternative to 4550.

link is bad

Iteki

04-12-09, 09:53 AM

link is bad

Worked for me?

SAPPHIRE 100253HDMI Radeon HD 4650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Low Profile Video Card - Retail
Integrated with native HDMI port, low profile $55

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102829

renethx

04-12-09, 11:00 AM

a10pkt8

04-12-09, 11:27 PM

Hi,

Here is the configuration I'm planning to get. This would be for ripping/playing movies, non HD as well as HD/blu-ray and I'm planning to have lots of storage (few TBs) in a few months. No games or any other kind of applications.

Thermaltake DH101 ATX/mATX case ($250)
CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ($99 @ newegg)
Gigabyte: GA-EG45M-UD2H ($130 @ newegg)
Pentium Dual core E5200 ($70 @ newegg)
Kingston KVR800D2N5 (2 x 1GB) ($24 newegg)
WD10EACS 1TB SATA 7200 rpm ($95 - already have it)
LG internal blu-ray drive ($115) - (blu-ray writer is ony $65 more, hmm....)

Seagate ST31500341AS 1.5TB for $125 seems good.

I'll try and get Windows 7 through a friend in MSFT. Otherwise, it'll be Vista 32.

I want to stick to a motherboard with integrated graphics. I don't mind a better CPU provided it doesn't require additional fan/cooling. I really want to keep it quiet. I'm not sure sure how my choice of case/ps works in that regard. I'm also paying a bit much for the case but it looks neat (a friend's recommendation). Any alternative recommendations? One with a remote controller is preferable.

Thanks

a10pkt8

04-13-09, 12:09 AM

renethx

04-13-09, 03:12 AM

a10pkt8

04-13-09, 03:44 AM

@a10pkt8

Perhaps you would get better PQ by going with mATX mid-range AMD/AMD unless 20W power increase is unacceptable. You can replace the processor with a cheaper one such as Athlon X2 5050e. CMPSU-450VX (http://www.provantage.com/corsair-cmpsu-450vx~7CSMC05C.htm) is the best PSU in performance/noise/price.
Sorry, what is PQ?

The 5050e isn't much cheaper and I'm genetically biased towards Intel :) Thanks for the PSU tip. That plus going with nmediapc 1000B should cut the price quite a bit. This case looks good unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

saxnix

04-13-09, 03:55 AM

Picture Quality.

renethx

04-13-09, 03:59 AM

Sorry, what is PQ?

The 5050e isn't much cheaper and I'm genetically biased towards Intel :) Thanks for the PSU tip. That plus going with nmediapc 1000B should cut the price quite a bit. This case looks good unless I'm missing something.

Thanks
PQ is picture quality. IGP can't beat a good discrete card.

- Athlon X2 5050e: $66
- GA-MA78GM-US2H: $70
- Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4: $70
- Total: $206

Compare:

- Pentium DC E5200: $70
- GA-EG45M-UD2H: $130
- Total: $200

There is almost no performance difference between Athlon 5050e and Pentium E5200.

a10pkt8

04-13-09, 04:19 AM

I heard from a friend that graphics cards were giving problem and that's why I was trying to stick with IGP. If that's not the case, might I as well go with one of the midrange from p85? That's in my budget. I'm not sure how noisy they get but it'd be odd to have nice HT and noisy PC together.

Thanks

renethx

04-13-09, 04:35 AM

I heard from a friend that graphics cards were giving problem
There is no difference between i(integrated)GPU and d(discrete)GPU in the probability of giving problems. Use Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4; its quietness is guaranteed. For example read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16165097#post16165097).

Ximori

04-13-09, 11:56 AM

Iteki

04-13-09, 12:23 PM

First of all, thanks for having this thread. What is an optimal cpu/graphic card configuration for a MSI 7411 maui board for playing blu-ray/ high definition movies and handling demanding 3D games? I like the idea of directly having to connect five of my old bookshelf speakers without the use of a receiver.

I haven't been keeping up with the latest in pc components; however, I've read a few articles about this mobo and found its feature interesting. So I plan to build around it using a Lian Li V350b chassis together with other pieces recommended here.

I considered a Maui build as well...I was going to build 2 HTPCs, one for the upstairs gameroom that already has an AV Receiver and one for downstairs that does not. The Maui would have gone downstairs.

Alas, budget concerns forced me to choose one build. We spend most of our time upstairs, so I'm moving forward with that.

Maui has built in ATI HD 3200. I've read that people are fine with that for HD video playback. You can always add a dedicated card, but that MB is rather cramped, and it can be hard to fit a doublesized card in next to the amp. You might want to go with a HDTV Tuner instead.

I say give the IGP a shot...you can always upgrade to a dedicated card if you want better PQ/performance.

For CPU, the 5050e should be fine from what I've read. Again, it's something you can upgrade should you need to in the future. Not all of the latest Phenoms are compatible with this board yet, but they are working on a BIOS update. Any Phenom or Phenom X2 or X3 should be fine.

Ximori

04-13-09, 01:02 PM

I actually wanted to know what cpu/graphic card combo is recommended to push the highest performance out of this mobo.

I just noticed this board isn't too popular in this thread.

I considered a Maui build as well...I was going to build 2 HTPCs, one for the upstairs gameroom that already has an AV Receiver and one for downstairs that does not. The Maui would have gone downstairs.

Alas, budget concerns forced me to choose one build. We spend most of our time upstairs, so I'm moving forward with that.

Maui has built in ATI HD 3200. I've read that people are fine with that for HD video playback. You can always add a dedicated card, but that MB is rather cramped, and it can be hard to fit a doublesized card in next to the amp. You might want to go with a HDTV Tuner instead.

I say give the IGP a shot...you can always upgrade to a dedicated card if you want better PQ/performance.

For CPU, the 5050e should be fine from what I've read. Again, it's something you can upgrade should you need to in the future. Not all of the latest Phenoms are compatible with this board yet, but they are working on a BIOS update. Any Phenom or Phenom X2 or X3 should be fine.

Iteki

04-13-09, 01:27 PM

I actually wanted to know what cpu/graphic card combo is recommended to push the highest performance out of this mobo.

I just noticed this board isn't too popular in this thread.

Performance is relative. Are you looking for all around performance? Games? just HD Playback?...It will do and support just about anything any other 780G mobo can support. With the caveat of the newest Phenoms...which they are working on supporting via BIOS update.

The only real utility for using this board is the 5.1amp so you don't need an AV receiver. Most people on this thread already have their own AVR, so it wouldn't really fit their needs.

From what I've read on the Maui thread, the amp is the biggest headache in terms of add-on cards. Apparently it's difficult to fit a 2 slot video card in there next to the amp.

I'm still giving it serious thought for when I build an HTPC for the living room...less is more as far as my wife is concerned. TV, Speakers and HTPC would be just fine for playback only.

johnxxsmith

04-13-09, 01:29 PM

Finally got around to ordering all my stuff.

Antec NSK1380
GA-MA78GM-US2H
AMD ATHLON 64 X2 5050E
SAMSUNG F1 1TB 3.5" SATA2 7200RPM 32MB
2-in-1 Wifi 802.11b/g + Bluetooth 2.0 EDR PCI Wireless Network Card
Samsung Intern SATA 22x DVD+/- black
Geil 2GB PC2 6400 800MHz Value 5-5-5-15 Brush Aluminum x2

Wish i didnt throw away the ps2 keyboard years ago, so cant get into the bios. Did find an old ms wireless keyboard that looks like the reciever has usb and ps2 cable so have to test if that works. else have to buy that also.

Ive read comments that the cables in the case are short, are there extensions for this?

someone mentioned the Clip-in motherboard standoffs were difficult to put in.

Had to google what what a "standoff" (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/145) was, so this build should be interesting to say the least. Hopefully can take just one day off to put it together

djordan

04-13-09, 03:44 PM

NEXT STEP: ASUS M3N78PRO OR M4N78PRO?
formerly:
"ECS A780GM-A Radeon 3200 IGP Goes Blank!?!"

AM2+ 7750
4GB G-Skill RAM
COrsair 550W

The screen going blank may mean IGP overheating. Try to attach a small 40mm fan like Scythe Mini Kaze (http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=Scythe%20Mini%20Kaze&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enJP319JP319&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf) on the NB heatsink by small screws (it's very quiet). If the problem persists, then you'd better consider the next step.

M3N78 Pro is good enough for 1080p. But I

recommend a HT 3.0 processor such as Athlon X2 7750 for better overall IGP performance.

Onboard HDMI supports 7.1 LPCM and DD/DTS.

I'm at the next step :)
I pulled out some fans to cool down that chip, couldn't make headway...then after updating BIOS, the IGP started behaving, but blue screens with the installation of my MyHD card (which still works fine on my other board) Tried all the chipset and driver versions I could find - re-imaged back to first-windows start several times. And I wasn't successful at getting "bit-perfect" through the sound, and the board doesn't have a seperate optical/coax to run a da converter, and then the 3200 pq didn't really blow me away either

There are TWO ASUS BOARD WITH THE NVIDIA 8300 and IGP
both have the all other stuff I need, but how to know which one, (in any? both?) will do bit the perfect audio.
Both have the 8300 chipset, but each have different onboard audio chipsets?
And according to the "unbiased" HD audio thread the 8300 chipset can do the bit perfect flac 192 / 24 files.

But does the NB chipset determine the audio capabilities?
What role does the audio chipset itself play? Is that just for decoding to the analog outs? (that few of us will ever use?)
Is the M4N78 simply a better choice for it's greater performance and upgrade capabilities?

Via VT1708S on the M4N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131382

Realtek ALC1200 ASUS M3N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131320

Thanks for such an awesome thread!

renethx

04-13-09, 04:07 PM

There are TWO ASUS BOARD WITH THE NVIDIA 8300 and IGP
both have the all other stuff I need, but how to know which one, (in any? both?) will do bit the perfect audio.
Both have the 8300 chipset, but each have different onboard audio chipsets?
And according to the "unbiased" HD audio thread the 8300 chipset can do the bit perfect flac 192 / 24 files.

But does the NB chipset determine the audio capabilities?
What role does the audio chipset itself play? Is that just for decoding to the analog outs? (that few of us will ever use?)
Is the M4N78 simply a better choice for it's greater performance and upgrade capabilities?

Via VT1708S on the M4N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131382

Realtek ALC1200 ASUS M3N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131320
Which audio are you going to use, NVIDIA HDMI (in this case your receiver needs to support HDMI) or onboard audio S/PDIF?

- NVIDIA HDMI audio does not support 44.1kHz (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183)).
- Realtek ALC1200 S/PDIF supports it.
- VT1708S S/PDIF perhaps supports it (here (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/hd-codecs.jsp)).

northreign

04-13-09, 05:37 PM

Via VT1708S on the M4N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131382

Realtek ALC1200 ASUS M3N78PRO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131320

You can see the differences of via vs. realtek here at the bottom http://techreport.com/articles.x/16702/10

The M4A78T-E is the other AM3 Asus board using the via1708s like the M4N78 - both the boards use via audio drivers for hdmi.

Simply put wouldn't buy it for the sound.

tighr

04-13-09, 06:33 PM

renethx

04-13-09, 08:57 PM

The M4A78T-E is the other AM3 Asus board using the via1708s like the M4N78 - both the boards use via audio drivers for hdmi.
VIA driver is for the VIA audio codec (S/PDIF and analog). HDMI audio device is built in the AMD 790GX chipset and NVIDIA GeForce 8300 chipset and requires ATI HDMI audio driver (from AMD or Realtek) and NVIDIA HDMI audio driver respectively.

renethx

04-13-09, 09:08 PM

I've been playing around with my Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-US2H with the Radeon HD 4550, and have it currently sending video over HDMI using the DVI/HDMI dongle to my 56" DLP. I believe i'm missing either a setting or a driver somewhere, because its not passing audio through the HDMI. If I go into sound controller, it's got HDMI audio device, but I believe that's the onboard HDMI and not the one for the discrete card. Any suggestions? The closest I was able to get was a garbled sound when booting up windows, but that's it.
Did you change "Surround View" setting in BIOS? Default setting is "Disabled" (in plain words, IGP is disabled if there is a discrete graphics card). In this case you will see only one HDMI audio device (from HD 4550) in the Sound dialog box. If "Surround View" is enabled, then you will see two HDMI audio devices (from HD 3200 and HD 4550).

Please read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029603#EnablingHDMIAudio) to see how to configure the HDMI audio device.

PatInTheHat

04-14-09, 01:30 AM

renethx

04-14-09, 01:55 AM

Looking some advice and a whole bunch of questions for a HTPC build:

*Watch SD/HD/Blu Streams
*Watch SD/HD/Blu DVDs
*Quiet (willing to pay)
*Power Efficient
*Upgradeable to tuner in the future
*Optical audio out

Basically the mid micro ATX build:

Case: Antec Fusion Remote Black microATX (or Lian Li PC-C37B MUSE or nMediaPC 1000B)
DVD: LG GGC-H20L Super Multi Blue Blu-ray Disc & HD DVD-ROM Drive
PSU: Corsair VX450W CMPSU-450VX 450W

Memory: A-DATA ADQVE1A16K DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit (upgrade to 4gigs?)

Video Card: SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 4670 GDDR4 512MB
or SAPPHIRE 100253HDMI Radeon HD 4650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2?
Should I consider a fanless card?

CPU? Motherboard? I'm partial to Intel but it really doesn't matter to me.
Core 2 Duo E7400 2.80GHz
Intel DG35EC (BOXDG35EC) LGA775 Intel G35 chipset microATX
CPU cooler also nessesary?

HDD I see the WD6400AAKS is recommended for a lot of builds but I really don't need that large of a drive. Would I see benefits going to a green drive or even a SSD for power/heat/noise issues?

Are there any reasons to go to ATX?

I have a copy of XP Pro I can use but is it worth it to upgrade to Vista?

Have Logitech 880 Remote. How can I integrate an IR receiver into the case if I go with the Lian/nMedia?

Can anyone recommend a good wireless card? For the time being I will not be able to hard wire the HTPC. I understand HD/Blu-ray streaming might not be possible via wireless.

TV Tuner: Would I loose anything ditching my current PVR and switching to the HTPC?

EDIT: I think I just realized my build does not contain an Optical out. Anyone have ideas for me?
You'd better avoid fanless HD 4650/4670.
Either Intel or AMD is fine.
Yup, you could go with Green or SSD (if price is not a matter).
ATX vs. mATX: just consider how many expansion cards you will need in future.
XP Pro is fine. I recommend Mediap Portal as a front end.
You have to buy a USB IR receiver.

- D-Link DGL-4500 or TRENDnet TEW-633GR IEEE802.11n router if you don't have a router yet.
- ENCORE ENLWI-N 802.11n Wireless PCI Adapter (there are many good cards, this one is the cheapest)

Please read the TV tuner section on page 1 for the limitation of the current PC TV tuners.

If you need S/PDIF, choose a mb with coaxial or optical out, or you can build your own coaxial bracket. See this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940972&page=85#Peripheral).

pcmike

04-14-09, 06:05 AM

renethx

04-14-09, 06:37 AM

Alright, I'm looking to build out a multi-use HTPC.. it's going to be used for DVR duties and Blu-ray playback (both off discs and hard drive) and playing back encoded 1080p content. Multi-channel LPCM and everything being carried over HDMI is extremely important to me.

Here is what I've come up with so far: http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=9736585

How does this look? The case is pretty freaking expensive, so I'm open for alternatives.. I was just looking for something that would allow me to put a quieter PSU in it and have plenty of room for additional hard drives (min: 4). I've also considered going for an internal ATSC/QAM tuner (needs to have dual tuners that can each tune either ATSC or QAM at the same time), but I have no idea which can do that and/or are good.. so I'm open to suggestions there. Also, the processor seems a bit overkill (and expensive), so I'm also open for better suggestions there. I'd like to try and get this build down to about $800 if at all possible. Where can I trim some cash and not lose out on my goals?
I have not updated the guide on page 85 yet, but after extensive tests, I found NVIDIA HDMI audio is inferior to ATI HDMI audio in a couple of points. One problem is explained here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183).

So right now I recommend ATI Radeon HD 4670 (in particular Sapphire GDDR4). If you choose an ATX case, you'd better choose an ATX mb (more expandability in future). The ATX mid-range sysems on page 85 should be helpful to choose components. The Lian Li case is very deep (~53 cm). SilverStone LC17 and Antec Fusion Remote Max are also good.

pcmike

04-14-09, 07:22 AM

Hrm.. so maybe I should just go with what I know (AMD 780G). I already have an HTPC that I built last year using a 780G + a Radeon 4550 for the LPCM and aside from the crappy Athlon X2 4850e processor, it works like a champ. Maybe I should just go back to a 780G solution with a Phenom II and 4670? Should be cheaper too, which is nice. I'd really like to avoid the HD Homerun, just because I don't truly have a router doing gigabit, just a couple switches. All the computers on my network are going through gateways that aren't gigabit, so while the computers and switches can do gigabit.. the way the network is routed nothing is actually transferred at gigabit speeds (if that makes any sense). Is there a TV tuner that can actually record TWO QAM signals (coaxial cable w/ a splitter going to both inputs on the tuner) or record one QAM and then watch another QAM? Or are they all ATSC on one input and QAM on the other? I'd like two QAM inputs is what I'm getting at and I don't actually have a ATSC antenna or the ability to put one up.

Any ideas? Thanks!

I have not updated the guide on page 85 yet, but after extensive tests, I found NVIDIA HDMI audio is inferior to ATI HDMI audio in a couple of points. One problem is explained here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183).

So right now I recommend ATI Radeon HD 4670 (in particular Sapphire GDDR4). If you choose an ATX case, you'd better choose an ATX mb (more expandability in future). The ATX mid-range sysems on page 85 should be helpful to choose components. The Lian Li case is very deep (~53 cm). SilverStone LC17 and Antec Fusion Remote Max are also good.

gunbunnysoulja

04-14-09, 08:02 AM

I have not updated the guide on page 85 yet, but after extensive tests, I found NVIDIA HDMI audio is inferior to ATI HDMI audio in a couple of points. One problem is explained here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183).

Is G45 = 4*** for audio?

grittree

04-14-09, 08:25 AM

I'd really like to avoid the HD Homerun, just because I don't truly have a router doing gigabit, just a couple switches.

Any ideas? Thanks!

You don't need a gigabit router for the HDHR. It also does the two QAM channels you want.

renethx

04-14-09, 09:38 AM

Is there a TV tuner that can actually record TWO QAM signals (coaxial cable w/ a splitter going to both inputs on the tuner) or record one QAM and then watch another QAM? Or are they all ATSC on one input and QAM on the other? I'd like two QAM inputs is what I'm getting at and I don't actually have a ATSC antenna or the ability to put one up.
HVR-2250 can do that, one TV input, signals are split to two indpendent tuners.

renethx

04-14-09, 09:41 AM

Is G45 = 4*** for audio?
I haven't tested G45 yet.

david81

04-14-09, 10:16 AM

I'd really like to avoid the HD Homerun, just because I don't truly have a router doing gigabit, just a couple switches.

Another vote for the HD Homerun here. No gig-e needed and it is so much more versatile than a PCI or USB tuner solution. Mine was running great on the 10/100 switch it was hooked up to originally.

As a side note, I just discovered multi-record which essentially lets my HD Homerun record 4 shows at the same time with our current QAM setup. MythTV, GBPVR and possibly Mediaportal all support it.

Iteki

04-14-09, 11:23 AM

Another vote for the HD Homerun here. No gig-e needed and it is so much more versatile than a PCI or USB tuner solution. Mine was running great on the 10/100 switch it was hooked up to originally.

As a side note, I just discovered multi-record which essentially lets my HD Homerun record 4 shows at the same time with our current QAM setup. MythTV, GBPVR and possibly Mediaportal all support it.

Is there a link explaining this? I thought it would max out at 2 (or the total number of tuners). I'm considering this product, and being able to record 4 channels would be great! (althought it would be OTA for me)

david81

04-14-09, 11:35 AM

Is there a link explaining this? I thought it would max out at 2 (or the total number of tuners). I'm considering this product, and being able to record 4 channels would be great! (althought it would be OTA for me)

Not sure of a good reference link for you at the moment. It will depend on the way your channels are broadcast though. For me, many of my clear QAM channels are "doubled up", eg Fox and NBC both as sub-channels on one physical QAM channel.

I'm pretty sure with OTA/ATSC that you are only going to get subchannels of the same network (CBS1/CBS2, PBS1/PBS2).

You can check it out at http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/channels_us.

You'll see (at least in my area) OTA only carries one network per physical channel, while many QAM channels are grouped together.

Experts feel free to correct me if I've gone astray here.

Iteki

04-14-09, 11:43 AM

Not sure of a good reference link for you at the moment. It will depend on the way your channels are broadcast though. For me, many of my clear QAM channels are "doubled up", eg Fox and NBC both as sub-channels on one physical QAM channel.

I'm pretty sure with OTA/ATSC that you are only going to get subchannels of the same network (CBS1/CBS2, PBS1/PBS2).

You can check it out at http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/channels_us.

You'll see (at least in my area) OTA only carries one network per physical channel, while many QAM channels are grouped together.

Experts feel free to correct me if I've gone astray here.

That makes sense. Guess I may have to have them install basic cable...I'm looking to ditch satellite. The vast majority of our TV watching is network TV and I'm tired of paying for channels I don't watch.

djordan

04-14-09, 12:05 PM

You can see the differences of via vs. realtek here at the bottom http://techreport.com/articles.x/16702/10
* * *
Simply put wouldn't buy it for the sound.

That's a pretty novel and useful way to compare chipsets...I've not realy taken any of these sounds cards seriously for surround decoding or d/a conversion. (Just need it route digital audio properly)

But I still think a really well-designed dedicated sound card might be able to compete with an av receiver or d/a converter with decent analog outs...and then all you need is your amps and speakers!

pcmike

04-14-09, 12:24 PM

But the HVR-2250 requires you to use Hauppauge's software, correct? I'm looking to make use of VMC included in Vista Ultimate.. or maybe even media portal or something along those lines....

HVR-2250 can do that, one TV input, signals are split to two indpendent tuners.

djordan

04-14-09, 12:31 PM

Which audio are you going to use, NVIDIA HDMI (in this case your receiver needs to support HDMI) or onboard audio S/PDIF?

- NVIDIA HDMI audio does not support 44.1kHz (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183)).
- Realtek ALC1200 S/PDIF supports it.
- VT1708S S/PDIF perhaps supports it (here (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/hd-codecs.jsp)).

I plan on using BOTH - routing the HDMI sound into the receiver (an Onkyo 606 - you have one too, I think?)
and the SPDIF into a seperate stereo-only d/a converter (with those analog outs then going to the receiver)
I get it that I have to switch output devices on my computer depending on the source.

Of course it would be "nice" if HDMI could pass 44.1. According to the link you sent, the dedicated ATI cards, 4XXX seem to be able to do this. i.e,. flac / foobar. Do you think your results would apply to Win XP / Foobar / Kernel streaming?
Or is the Vista / Wasapi a very different scenario?

djordan

04-14-09, 12:35 PM

- VT1708S S/PDIF perhaps supports it (here (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/hd-codecs.jsp)).

I emailed VIA about the VT1708S.
Will share any useful response I get from them.

Maxvla

04-14-09, 01:10 PM

A bunch of new 45 nm AMD processors will be released soon (April 20th?).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138491&stc=1&d=1238561099

The performance of those X3's is between Phenom II X3 710 and the older Athlon X2 5050e. But the price is unknown yet.

Been a couple weeks since you posted this, but I just found it first time. Do we know any prices yet? That X4 45W is tempting...

edit: Athlon X4/X3 delayed, see below.

Iteki

04-14-09, 03:48 PM

Anyone familiar with ATACOM.COM? They are selling the antec fusion black remote for $141...reputable seller?

NEVERMIND: Shipping is $18 for ups ground lol. Based in California, not sure why shipping costs would be so high.

pcmike

04-14-09, 04:22 PM

So these audio problems for NVIDIA only come into play when attempting to do BitPerfect audio playback, is that correct? What other problems did you notice?

I have not updated the guide on page 85 yet, but after extensive tests, I found NVIDIA HDMI audio is inferior to ATI HDMI audio in a couple of points. One problem is explained here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183).

So right now I recommend ATI Radeon HD 4670 (in particular Sapphire GDDR4). If you choose an ATX case, you'd better choose an ATX mb (more expandability in future). The ATX mid-range sysems on page 85 should be helpful to choose components. The Lian Li case is very deep (~53 cm). SilverStone LC17 and Antec Fusion Remote Max are also good.

r0nd3L

04-14-09, 06:32 PM

I'm having tough time deciding between Zotac ITX build and some Micro ATX :confused:

pcmike

04-14-09, 07:58 PM

Well I spec'd out an AMD solution.. here's what I came up with:
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=9736565

I barely saved any money what-so-ever! Is this even a good list of components? Between this list (AMD) and the list I mentioned previously (INTEL) (http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=9736585) which would have better performance? Are either of these list of components needed for DVR/Blu-ray/1080p mkv playback duty or could I get away with something much cheaper?

Thanks.

I have not updated the guide on page 85 yet, but after extensive tests, I found NVIDIA HDMI audio is inferior to ATI HDMI audio in a couple of points. One problem is explained here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16032183#post16032183).

So right now I recommend ATI Radeon HD 4670 (in particular Sapphire GDDR4). If you choose an ATX case, you'd better choose an ATX mb (more expandability in future). The ATX mid-range sysems on page 85 should be helpful to choose components. The Lian Li case is very deep (~53 cm). SilverStone LC17 and Antec Fusion Remote Max are also good.

Hrm.. so maybe I should just go with what I know (AMD 780G). I already have an HTPC that I built last year using a 780G + a Radeon 4550 for the LPCM and aside from the crappy Athlon X2 4850e processor, it works like a champ. Maybe I should just go back to a 780G solution with a Phenom II and 4670? Should be cheaper too, which is nice. I'd really like to avoid the HD Homerun, just because I don't truly have a router doing gigabit, just a couple switches. All the computers on my network are going through gateways that aren't gigabit, so while the computers and switches can do gigabit.. the way the network is routed nothing is actually transferred at gigabit speeds (if that makes any sense). Is there a TV tuner that can actually record TWO QAM signals (coaxial cable w/ a splitter going to both inputs on the tuner) or record one QAM and then watch another QAM? Or are they all ATSC on one input and QAM on the other? I'd like two QAM inputs is what I'm getting at and I don't actually have a ATSC antenna or the ability to put one up.

Any ideas? Thanks!

So these audio problems for NVIDIA only come into play when attempting to do BitPerfect audio playback, is that correct? What other problems did you notice?

Paul E. Fox, II

04-14-09, 09:27 PM

As far as the graphics card goes...

If I were to decide to go a bit more towards the high-end system, exactly how much more noise am I going to pick up using the ASUS EN9800GT with the Intel/nVidia option than say the mid-range Sapphire 4670? I'm not the biggest gamer but since I'm spending the cash, I'd like to have the option when the mood strikes.

Sound, for me, is a huge issue as this PC I'm using now is so loud it's nickname is "The Hoover".

Just seeing if it's worth stepping up to that level or not.

pirspilane

04-14-09, 10:33 PM

Will an HTPC case (e.g. Antec Fusion remote) cool properly if sitting on its side? Are there any HTPC cases made for use in that orientation? Or, would I be better off using a mid-tower case?

jonsjunk

04-15-09, 12:06 AM

I have been following this thread for several weeks and and have done a general search and unable to find the answer. Will a mid-level (or any level) build as listed on page 85 (or tweaking) allow blu-ray or dvds to play from the tray or do you have to encode them to the hard drive first?

Assuming you can play from tray, are the applications/software wife friendly or be made wife friendly?

I want to build an HTPC, but it has to be EXTREMELY easy to use by my wife. Otherwise, I will need to add a stand alone blu-ray player or risk... well, you know.

Thanks for your input.

SeattleHTGuy

04-15-09, 01:52 AM

Well, Nothing anymore is "Extremely Easy" Even a stand alone BD Player sometimes doesn't play new disks without firmware upgrades....... but Arcsoft TMT 2.0 or I guess 3 coupled with VMC is pretty dang easy. You need to tell your wife to locate the "Green Button" Find the Arsoft BD buttom and hit enter. If she can do that and you've tolde her how to boot the PC, set the TV/LCD/Projector to PC and set your Receiver/Amp/whatever to the right input your good to go. Unfortunately...... nothing is completely simple anymore. I guess you could set your PC to auto load Arcsoft upon disc placement.

Maxvla

04-15-09, 05:30 AM

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20090401164232_AMD_Delays_Release_of_Quad_Core_Athlon_II_Pre ps_Dual_Core_Phenom_II.html

Shows the Athlon X4/X3 45W chips are delayed several months to Q3. I hope the Phenom II 65W chips will still come out. No news that I can find about them.

Marc_G

04-15-09, 06:41 AM

Here's my latest build list. If nobody pokes holes in it, I may order tonight!

My needs are HDMI to 50" 1080i plasma, optical audio out to 7.1 receiver.
Playing DVD/BD & streamed versions
Recording OTA HD dual tuner
Getting whatever the internet has to offer.

SAPPHIRE 100255DDR4 Radeon HD 4670 512MB 128-bit GDDR4 $79.99
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) $31.99
CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS $74.99
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard $99.99
AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $59.99
GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-US2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD MotherboardItem $79.99
Antec 77064 Thermal GreaseItem $2.99
LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVDÂ±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-$109.99
Scythe SCMNJ-1000 80mm Sleeve "NINJA MINI" CPU CoolerItem $29.99
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit for System BuildersItem $99.99
Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 Media Center Kit Dual TV Tuner 1213 PCI-Express x1 $149.99
nMEDIAPC Black Aluminum panel & Steel HTPC 1000B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC $99.99

The build has gotten pricey but I decided to go with discrete graphics adaptor after all.

Will everything fit in the case, particularly the two cards and the mini Ninja cooler? I like that case's looks better than the silvery Antec 2480.

Marc

renethx

04-15-09, 07:04 AM

But the HVR-2250 requires you to use Hauppauge's software, correct? I'm looking to make use of VMC included in Vista Ultimate.. or maybe even media portal or something along those lines....
Yup, you are right, or you need TV Pack. It looks like QAM works fine with MP (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:forum.team-mediaportal.com+HVR-2250+QAM).

renethx

04-15-09, 07:06 AM

I plan on using BOTH - routing the HDMI sound into the receiver (an Onkyo 606 - you have one too, I think?)
and the SPDIF into a seperate stereo-only d/a converter (with those analog outs then going to the receiver)
I get it that I have to switch output devices on my computer depending on the source.

Of course it would be "nice" if HDMI could pass 44.1. According to the link you sent, the dedicated ATI cards, 4XXX seem to be able to do this. i.e,. flac / foobar. Do you think your results would apply to Win XP / Foobar / Kernel streaming?
Or is the Vista / Wasapi a very different scenario?
I tested only under Vista.

renethx

04-15-09, 07:16 AM

So these audio problems for NVIDIA only come into play when attempting to do BitPerfect audio playback, is that correct? What other problems did you notice?
Another problem is non-continuous HDMI audio (audio is cut off when there is no sound and it takes a second or so to reactivate, so you may miss short sounds).

renethx

04-15-09, 07:23 AM

renethx

04-15-09, 07:28 AM

renethx

04-15-09, 07:31 AM

Will an HTPC case (e.g. Antec Fusion remote) cool properly if sitting on its side? Are there any HTPC cases made for use in that orientation? Or, would I be better off using a mid-tower case?
You should not block the side airflow of Fusion Remote. If you are going to place the case vertically, then you'd better use a mid-tower case.

pcmike

04-15-09, 08:56 AM

Yea, I knew it didn't have MPCM over HDMI.. I intentionally left it out because realistically there is no receiver in the living room anyhow.. or sound system, so its not really THAT important right now. I knew I could just add a discrete video card later and get it in 2mins if that situation ever changed. I just wonder which platform would post higher performance... Phenom II or C2Q, considering they are both about the same price. I'm going to lean towards Intel posting higher performance, just my gut feeling... is that wrong?

The new system is even worse than the original one in that it does not support 7.1 LPCM over HDMI (stereo only). If you have enough budget, then add the Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4. If you want to save money, go with:

- Athlon X2 5050e
- DDR2-800 2 x 2GB
- GA-MA780G-UD3H
- Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4
- Corsair CMPSU-450VX

renethx

04-15-09, 09:03 AM

Yea, I knew it didn't have MPCM over HDMI.. I intentionally left it out because realistically there is no receiver in the living room anyhow.. or sound system, so its not really THAT important right now. I knew I could just add a discrete video card later and get it in 2mins if that situation ever changed. I just wonder which platform would post higher performance... Phenom II or C2Q, considering they are both about the same price. I'm going to lean towards Intel posting higher performance, just my gut feeling... is that wrong?
What performance are you looking for? Faster encoding, better gaming etc.? Performance of video playback has nothing to do with AMD vs. Intel.

pcmike

04-15-09, 09:15 AM

Do you plan on overclocking the Athlon or something of that nature? If not, there really is no need for a aftermarket cooler.. I guess unless you know the Ninja is THAT MUCH quieter.. that may be the only reason. Aside from that I can't tell you I'm really liking your list as that system comes in at close to $920 and for maybe $100 more you can build something thats totally up-to-date using either AMD or Intel. Don't mean to sound harsh, thats just what I've noticed after specing out both an Intel system and an AMD one.

Incase anyone is wondering.... these are the builds I'm basing my opinion off of:

INTEL: http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=9736585

AMD: http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=9736565

Here's my latest build list. If nobody pokes holes in it, I may order tonight!

My needs are HDMI to 50" 1080i plasma, optical audio out to 7.1 receiver.
Playing DVD/BD & streamed versions
Recording OTA HD dual tuner
Getting whatever the internet has to offer.

SAPPHIRE 100255DDR4 Radeon HD 4670 512MB 128-bit GDDR4 $79.99
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) $31.99
CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS $74.99
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard $99.99
AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $59.99
GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-US2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD MotherboardItem $79.99
Antec 77064 Thermal GreaseItem $2.99
LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVDÂ±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-$109.99
Scythe SCMNJ-1000 80mm Sleeve "NINJA MINI" CPU CoolerItem $29.99
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit for System BuildersItem $99.99
Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 Media Center Kit Dual TV Tuner 1213 PCI-Express x1 $149.99
nMEDIAPC Black Aluminum panel & Steel HTPC 1000B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC $99.99

The build has gotten pricey but I decided to go with discrete graphics adaptor after all.

Will everything fit in the case, particularly the two cards and the mini Ninja cooler? I like that case's looks better than the silvery Antec 2480.

Marc

pcmike

04-15-09, 09:16 AM

Encoding of video and audio, mainly. Gaming isn't important at all. :)

What performance are you looking for? Faster encoding, better gaming etc.? Performance of video playback has nothing to do with AMD vs. Intel.

renethx

04-15-09, 10:05 AM

Encoding of video and audio, mainly. Gaming isn't important at all. :)
- Core 2 Quad Q8300: quad core, $183 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 16.6 fps
- Phenom II X4 810: quad core, $175 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 15.5 fps
- Phenom II X3 720: triple core, $145 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 11.8 fps

Basically you will get what you paid for. (Q8300 consumes lower power, however.) There is no performance difference between DDR2 and DDR3.

Marc_G

04-15-09, 11:47 AM

pcmike

04-15-09, 12:25 PM

I'm thinking of going P45 w/ a fanless 4670. Best of both worlds, or so it seems. You'll get a great performing system from a CPU perspective and then a video card that is perfectly acceptable for BD/MKV/etc playback that just so happens to also do MPCM over HDMI. Only thing you're missing on the GPU is something as good as CUDA in the long run, right? Does this sound like a reasonable path? What's your opinion on the fanless 4670 (Sapphire)?

- Core 2 Quad Q8300: quad core, $183 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 16.6 fps
- Phenom II X4 810: quad core, $175 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 15.5 fps
- Phenom II X3 720: triple core, $145 (MSRP), x264 HD benchmark 11.8 fps

Basically you will get what you paid for. (Q8300 consumes lower power, however.) There is no performance difference between DDR2 and DDR3.

renethx

04-15-09, 12:36 PM

I'm thinking of going P45 w/ a fanless 4670. Best of both worlds, or so it seems. You'll get a great performing system from a CPU perspective and then a video card that is perfectly acceptable for BD/MKV/etc playback that just so happens to also do MPCM over HDMI. Only thing you're missing on the GPU is something as good as CUDA in the long run, right? Does this sound like a reasonable path? What's your opinion on the fanless 4670 (Sapphire)?
In the long run, you shouldn't worry about CUDA or ATI Stream. Eventually there will be unified APIs. I am an anti-fanless person. :)

Maxvla

04-15-09, 12:41 PM

Marc,

I'm guessing you are ordering from Newegg, but just wanted to mention the $10 rebate on the Sapphire 4670 card expires today. I'm still planning my build but thinking I'll need a discrete card also so I'm ordering one myself today.

Also use code EMCLRMR23 for $10 off the WD 1TB Green.

pcmike

04-15-09, 12:47 PM

May I ask why that is or can you point me to where you already told us why. :) Is it safe to assume then that you feel the Sapphire 4670 (GDDR4) is pretty quiet? I can definitely say the ASUS 4550 I got is loud as heck and I don't want to repeat that in another HTPC. Also, is there a reason you chose GDDR4 over GDDR3? From what I was reading on Anandtech GDDR4 is all but being skipped over for GDDR5 and really offers nothing over GDDR3.

Thanks!

In the long run, you shouldn't worry about CUDA or ATI Stream. Eventually there will be unified APIs. I am an anti-fanless person. :)

blackranger3d

04-15-09, 02:17 PM

May I ask why that is or can you point me to where you already told us why. :) Is it safe to assume then that you feel the Sapphire 4670 (GDDR4) is pretty quiet? I can definitely say the ASUS 4550 I got is loud as heck and I don't want to repeat that in another HTPC. Also, is there a reason you chose GDDR4 over GDDR3? From what I was reading on Anandtech GDDR4 is all but being skipped over for GDDR5 and really offers nothing over GDDR3.

Thanks!

Forgive my ignorance, as I'm just getting into researching my first HTPC. But aren't either of the AMD or Intel MB+CPU combos you listed more than powerful enough to do the encoding / HD stuff without needing a dedicated video card?

pgtop

04-15-09, 02:38 PM

thanks alot for detailed info ..

I'm waiting for my HTPC case to build my 1st HTPC system :-D

pcmike

04-15-09, 02:44 PM

Definitely are. The video card in either setup is purely just to have video and HD audio over a single HDMI cable.

Forgive my ignorance, as I'm just getting into researching my first HTPC. But aren't either of the AMD or Intel MB+CPU combos you listed more than powerful enough to do the encoding / HD stuff without needing a dedicated video card?

blackranger3d

04-15-09, 03:06 PM

The new system is even worse than the original one in that it does not support 7.1 LPCM over HDMI (stereo only). If you have enough budget, then add the Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4. If you want to save money, go with:

- Athlon X2 5050e
- DDR2-800 2 x 2GB
- GA-MA780G-UD3H
- Sapphire HD 4670 GDDR4
- Corsair CMPSU-450VX

I'm thinking of something like what you have listed but with no dedicated video card. My main needs are:

- streaming videos from my main (gaming) PC (SD/HD)
- playing Blu-Ray / DVD discs
- music
- pictures

I will never
- game (have an xbox and another pc for this)
- encode

Would the listed system be able to handle it?

r0nd3L

04-15-09, 03:14 PM

renethx

04-15-09, 04:26 PM

May I ask why that is or can you point me to where you already told us why. :) Is it safe to assume then that you feel the Sapphire 4670 (GDDR4) is pretty quiet? I can definitely say the ASUS 4550 I got is loud as heck and I don't want to repeat that in another HTPC. Also, is there a reason you chose GDDR4 over GDDR3? From what I was reading on Anandtech GDDR4 is all but being skipped over for GDDR5 and really offers nothing over GDDR3.
Articles like this?: OpenCL 1.0: The Road to Pervasive GPU Computing (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3488).

Yes, Sapphire GDDR4 is the quiestest card (apart from fanless ones). It happens that the card is GDDR4. :)

renethx

04-15-09, 04:29 PM

I'm thinking of something like what you have listed but with no dedicated video card. My main needs are:

- streaming videos from my main (gaming) PC (SD/HD)
- playing Blu-Ray / DVD discs
- music
- pictures

I will never
- game (have an xbox and another pc for this)
- encode

Would the listed system be able to handle it?
Any audio requirement? E.g. HDMI (with receiver or TV?), S/PDIF, analog etc.

tmorgenthaler

04-15-09, 04:30 PM

Hi all,
Getting ready to go ahead and build my HTPC and I wanted to get some advice/input from those who have learned their lessons. My only real purpose of the device is to access media stored on my WHS. I've got about 200 of my DVDs/HD-DVDs/Blu Ray movies ripped to the WHS. I'm using My Movies to index/organize the movies, and AnyDVD HD to rip them. I've already bought TMT 3 to view the stored Blu Ray and HD-DVD titles. All that said, I don't need to store the movies or rip them from the HTPC.

I also don't need the DVR aspect since, unless someone corrects me for being wrong, there is currently no way to get HD from cable, other than what the cable company provides you with. I've seen the one cable card tuner out there, but from what I told it's a hassle to set up, and will only work with specific motherboards. A system builder can't just buy it and make it work with their PC. So I guess I'm stuck with the DVR the cable company provided me with and a $10/mo charge for that box. Anybody correct me if I'm wrong and there is an alternative.

So, this is the system I've come up with on NewEgg:

hec Black 0.7mm Thickness SECC Steel 7KJ9 Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC Case - Retail
Model #:7KJ9
Item #:N82E16811121068

$68.99 -$10.00 Instant $58.99

Update13-128-363 GIGABYTE GA-E7AUM-DS2H LGA 775 NVIDIA GeForce 9400 HDMI Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #:GA-E7AUM-DS2H
Item #:N82E16813128363
Return Policy:30 Day Return Policy
In Stock
Note (Add13-128-363)

$129.99

Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 Wolfdale 2.8GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80571E7400 - Retail
Model #:BX80571E7400
Item #:N82E16819115206

$119.99

OCZ Gold 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model OCZ2G8002GK - Retail
Model #:OCZ2G8002GK
Item #:N82E16820227124

$28.99 -$5.00 Instant $23.99

I already have a spare 500 GB hard drive that I'm going to use for the OS. Overkill yes, but it doesn't cost me anything.

Any opinions? Is this system going to be able to handle the 1080p output to my TV? I read somewhere that TMT 3 will upscale regular DVDs with NVIDIA cards, so that's one of the reasons I was looking at that board. Any better solutions? I'll be using the HDMI output to my TV initially, until I get a new receiver that is HDMI capable.

Also, what do I need to do for a remote? I have a nice Logitech Harmony 880 remote that I use now, but is there a way to control the HTPC from that?

renethx

04-15-09, 04:35 PM

Quick question.

I'm about to order Zotac Mini ITX setup that you recommended, except with 4GB of memory. All I want to get out of my HTPC is to have TV/TV Guide/DVR/Play and Rip Bluray, DVD, etc/browse internet.

I'm thinking it will be plenty and I might even stick to 2GB of memory?

Also, about the recommended case, does it have one internal and one external 3.5" slot or it's just one? Confusing info on Newegg.
2GB is enough. If you attach the HDD on the side panel (then you can't attach a side fan), you can use the 3.5" bay for other purpose. Otherwise you have to attach HDD to the 3.5" bay.

blackranger3d

04-15-09, 04:38 PM

Any audio requirement? E.g. HDMI (with receiver or TV?), S/PDIF, analog etc.

Opps

Yeah HDMI with sony receiver 7.1

renethx

04-15-09, 04:54 PM

renethx

04-15-09, 04:58 PM

I'm thinking of something like what you have listed but with no dedicated video card. My main needs are:

- streaming videos from my main (gaming) PC (SD/HD)
- playing Blu-Ray / DVD discs
- music
- pictures

I will never
- game (have an xbox and another pc for this)
- encode

Would the listed system be able to handle it?
You will need the discrete video card for multichannel LPCM. IGP supports only stereo LPCM (and DD/DTS bitstreaming).

tighr

04-15-09, 04:58 PM

Did you change "Surround View" setting in BIOS? Default setting is "Disabled" (in plain words, IGP is disabled if there is a discrete graphics card). In this case you will see only one HDMI audio device (from HD 4550) in the Sound dialog box. If "Surround View" is enabled, then you will see two HDMI audio devices (from HD 3200 and HD 4550).

Please read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029603#EnablingHDMIAudio) to see how to configure the HDMI audio device.
Thanks for the help! I was working through this issue for quite a while and it was begining to frustrate me. I am running XP on this PC, but was still required to download the ATI HDMI driver from Realtek, and then I had to go to the Sounds item in Control Panel in order to switch it... the option was not given to me from Volume Control to save the settings. As soon as I set it to 5.1 audio, it magically started working! Thanks for your help.

pcmike

04-15-09, 06:25 PM

Sweet, I got the OK to splurge and go with Core i7 on the HTPC! This just made my decisions a little bit easier.

tmorgenthaler

04-15-09, 06:25 PM

Hauppauge HD-DVR captures premium HD contents from cable.

A nice system.

TMT 2/3 is not good for DVD (with or without SimHD), IMO.

You can use Harmoney to control HTPC, just like MCE remote. You will need a IR receiver.

Interesting about the Hauppauge. Have you had any experience with it? Live up to expectations?

Any particular IR receiver that would work well? How do you set it up to work with Windows Media Center?

PatInTheHat

04-15-09, 07:30 PM

Can anyone link me to a site that has good information on home networking? I don't think I fully understand the best way to hard wire your network throughout your home. If you have 4-5 access points how are you connecting these all to your router? I have a AirPort Express and it only has 3 ports which are all used and I will need to add at least 3 more for my HTPCs. Is this where a switch comes into play?

Also will I notice any quality loss in any way going from a PS3 player to an HTPC? (using a build similar to what i posted earlier)

pcmike

04-15-09, 07:34 PM

Best to buy a 8port or larger gigabit (1000Mbps) switch and run ethernet to each computer (aside from laptops which are unlikely to require direct connection except maybe once if you do a full Time Machine backup or something similar). The harder part is actually wiring up a house after its built... or at least that is going to be the hardest part in my build. I bought 1000ft of cat6 and a 1000ft of rg6 and plan on wiring up each room with both ethernet and cable... not an easy feat in a house with vaulted ceilings that is completely insulated. :( Probably going to just hire an electrician to run the wires for ~$80/hr. I bought all my wiring, fittings, etc on monoprice.com (the prices are just insane, at least half what the electrician wanted to charge me if I used his cables/fittings).

pcmike

04-15-09, 07:50 PM

dbone1026

04-15-09, 07:57 PM

Maxvla

04-15-09, 09:22 PM

Alright, I think I've settled on what I'm going to order. The final parts list is at the link below. Please let me know what you guys think and if I'm missing anything or if you think they'll be any incompatibilities with anything. Thanks!

HTPC, Intel, Core: http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=15291527

I'm just coming in at this post, but do you really need this much power for a HTPC? i7, DDR3, 625W... sounds more like a dedicated desktop encoding/gaming machine, except for the pedestrian video card, than a efficient inexpensive HTPC. Seems like you could get the same functionality (except encoding speed) for nearly half your listed price.

Paul E. Fox, II

04-15-09, 09:34 PM

ASUS EN9800GT is very quiet at idle and video playback.

I decided to go the Sapphire route as after reading a few posts about the NVidia based cards HDMI Audio problems. Just thought this would be a simpler approach and since I'm not Super Gamer, I should be OK...right?

I'm just coming in at this post, but do you really need this much power for a HTPC? i7, DDR3, 625W... sounds more like a dedicated desktop encoding/gaming machine, except for the pedestrian video card, than a efficient inexpensive HTPC. Seems like you could get the same functionality (except encoding speed) for nearly half your listed price.

I've wondered about this myself. I ended up getting a slightly bigger PSU than some of the people building similar systems. The one I'm spec-ing out is gonna actually be more to the higher end. Probably overkill but I'd rather have more than I need than not enough...you know.

In the end, it's all about sound...I want to be able to do Multi-channel sound via HDMI and I want the box itself to be quiet quiet quiet!

pcmike

04-15-09, 09:47 PM

Iteki

04-15-09, 09:54 PM

I just hate buying cheap stuff even if it is all I need. The way I see it is this... what I "need" is probably about $900, next step up is another $100+ or so, might as well just splurge and not have to ever really worry.

OR you could save the difference and build another very good rig for another location in the house :-)

But honestly, if I had the DO RE MI, I'd build 10 MONSTER rigs and then buy TVs to go with them. :-) So if you have the green, why not get what ya want?

Marc_G

04-15-09, 09:58 PM

Thanks everyone who has helped me either directly or indirectly through your shared experiences...

This is what I'm about to do, slightly different from what I posted this morning:
Reminder:
My needs are HDMI to 50" 1080i plasma, optical audio out to 7.1 receiver.
Playing DVD/BD & streamed versions
Recording OTA HD dual tuner
Getting whatever the internet has to offer.

Wish list at:
Marc's HTPC Plan Minus Tuner (http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=6677469)

Case: nMEDIAPC Black Aluminum panel & Steel HTPC 1000B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC $99.99
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS $74.99
MoBo: GIGABYTE GA-MA78GPM-UD2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard $94.99
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $59.99
Planning to use integrated GPU and stock cooler unless I run into problems with either one.

Also:
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) $31.99
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard $99.99
LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVDÂ±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-$109.99
And of course:
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit for System Builders $99.99

I'm now split between the Hauppage and SiliconDust dual HD Tuner solutions. Leaning toward the SiliconDust at this point.

Remaining questions:
-Is there a good comparison thread between the tuner solutions?
-Have I chosen the best processor for my needs? Keeping in mind I've got a desktop PC that's Vista64/QuadCore/6GB RAM.
-Any better case/PSU solutions? I like the look of the one I've selected but still open.
-Will I get any use out of another 2 GB RAM? I know only part of it will be visible in Vista32.

By this time tomorrow I plan to place the order.

@PCMike: Thanks for the links and thoughts. I'd rather not go with a full ATX solution; also by going to iGPU, removing extra GPU, deleting aftermarket cooler and so forth I saved some cost. Now I'm at $662 plus the tuner card/unit once I decide which one.

Given a slight splurge on the case/PSU, this seems to be the lowest end that includes what I need to ensure good PQ and good audio on S/PDIF. That BluRay drive adds a bit of beef to the build!

Any final thoughts appreciated.

Marc

Maxvla

04-15-09, 09:59 PM

I just hate buying cheap stuff even if it is all I need. The way I see it is this... what I "need" is probably about $900, next step up is another $100+ or so, might as well just splurge and not have to ever really worry.

Put that extra couple hundred dollars towards movies, other HT gear like a better receiver, speakers, or TV, perhaps a night on the town with the wife ;)

I am very much like you, but even I have to admit when enough is enough. i7 for HTPC is like using a Lamborghini as a daily driver.

pcmike

04-15-09, 10:08 PM

Hey Marc,

You'll need to add at least a discrete video card to get audio over HDMI. The 780G only does 2ch over S/PDIF. The consensus seems to be the 4670 GDDR4 is the card to go with, another +$70.

Also, I was gonna go HD Homerun, but then I realized its straight ATSC or QAM, no NTSC... so no standard definition (0-99 cable channels), so I decided against it. I'm going to be using the 2250 instead. Advantage of the HD Homerun is of course it doesn't need to be in the computer and it can be pooled over the network, always cool. It also can be used in Vista Media Center (even its QAM) Disadvantage is no SD. 2250 has all three in two tuners, but can't be pooled over the network and it doesn't work in VMC (gotta use its own applications or something like MediaPortal).

Enjoy.

Thanks everyone who has helped me either directly or indirectly through your shared experiences...

This is what I'm about to do, slightly different from what I posted this morning:
Reminder:
My needs are HDMI to 50" 1080i plasma, optical audio out to 7.1 receiver.
Playing DVD/BD & streamed versions
Recording OTA HD dual tuner
Getting whatever the internet has to offer.

Case: nMEDIAPC Black Aluminum panel & Steel HTPC 1000B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC $99.99
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS $74.99
MoBo: GIGABYTE GA-MA78GPM-UD2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard $94.99
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $59.99
Planning to use integrated GPU and stock cooler unless I run into problems with either one.

Also:
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) $31.99
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard $99.99
LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVDÂ±R DVD Burner SATA Model GGC-$109.99
And of course:
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit for System Builders $99.99

I'm now split between the Hauppage and SiliconDust dual HD Tuner solutions. Leaning toward the SiliconDust at this point.

Remaining questions:
-Is there a good comparison thread between the tuner solutions?
-Have I chosen the best processor for my needs? Keeping in mind I've got a desktop PC that's Vista64/QuadCore/6GB RAM.
-Any better case/PSU solutions? I like the look of the one I've selected but still open.
-Will I get any use out of another 2 GB RAM? I know only part of it will be visible in Vista32.

By this time tomorrow I plan to place the order.

@PCMike: Thanks for the links and thoughts. I'd rather not go with a full ATX solution; also by going to iGPU, removing extra GPU, deleting aftermarket cooler and so forth I saved some cost. Now I'm at $662 plus the tuner card/unit once I decide which one.

Given a slight splurge on the case/PSU, this seems to be the lowest end that includes what I need to ensure good PQ and good audio on S/PDIF. That BluRay drive adds a bit of beef to the build!

Any final thoughts appreciated.

Marc

Maxvla

04-15-09, 10:14 PM

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 7750 Kuma 2.7GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core black edition Processor $59.99
Planning to use integrated GPU and stock cooler unless I run into problems with either one.

-Have I chosen the best processor for my needs? Keeping in mind I've got a desktop PC that's Vista64/QuadCore/6GB RAM.

Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard $99.99

-Any better case/PSU solutions? I like the look of the one I've selected but still open.

-Will I get any use out of another 2 GB RAM? I know only part of it will be visible in Vista32.

Marc
Marc,

I would be hesitant to use a 95W CPU with stock cooler in a small box like that. The 4850e/5050e 45W might be a better choice with nearly as good performance. I have a 4850e in my media server and using the stock cooler it never goes above 32c even under full load. You might take one last look at benchmarks for the 7750 and the 5050e to decide. Edit: here's a review for you to look at that I just found. http://www.legitreviews.com/article/850/1/

Remember the coupon code on the hard drive I mentioned on the last page if ordering from Newegg. $10 off.

The PSU I'll be going with is the Nexus Value 430 seen here (http://www.silentpcreview.com/Nexus_Value_430) at Silent PC Review taking their top spot for silence and quality power. I found it for sale here (http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=nexus_quiet_power_supply.html) at End PC Noise on sale ($79.99) and if you get a few 'Real Silent' fans to go over $100 shipping is free.

2GB should be fine, but ram is cheap, what's another 30 dollars to max out and be sure?

Maxvla

04-16-09, 12:04 AM

renethx

04-16-09, 03:19 AM

I decided to go the Sapphire route as after reading a few posts about the NVidia based cards HDMI Audio problems. Just thought this would be a simpler approach and since I'm not Super Gamer, I should be OK...right?
Should be good and better than HDMI audio from GA-E7AUM-DS2H.

renethx

04-16-09, 03:33 AM

Remaining questions:
-Is there a good comparison thread between the tuner solutions?
-Have I chosen the best processor for my needs? Keeping in mind I've got a desktop PC that's Vista64/QuadCore/6GB RAM.
-Any better case/PSU solutions? I like the look of the one I've selected but still open.
-Will I get any use out of another 2 GB RAM? I know only part of it will be visible in Vista32.
- HDTV PC Tuner Guide (http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/index.html) is a good place. If you don't need analog, HDHomeRun is more convenient, but pricier.
- 7750 is the minimum processor to get good IGP performance. Any processor of HT 2.0 should be avoided. If you have money, you could go with Phenom II X3, of course.
- OS supports up to 4GB (~3.2GB for applications).

renethx

04-16-09, 03:46 AM

Renethx,

Quick question. Would it be wise to get a GIGABYTE GA-MA790X-UD4P and a 5050e, then upgrade to the X2 605e or PII 905e when they release? 5050e of course is AM2, 605e and 905e are AM3. This board is supposed to support both types so it looks like a good move, but I wanted to run it past you first. I wish there was something available right now that was like the 5050e power/temps, but in the $80-100 range with performance to match. I'm guessing that's where the 605e will be.
Upgrading processor is worth it or not depends on your purpose of HTPC. If you use a good discrete graphics card, 5050e should be good enough for video playback, recording/watching TV and ripping/remuxing DVD/BD (for encoding you may want a quad-core). If you use IGP, then you should skip a HT 2.0 processor and go with a HT 3.0.

Maxvla

04-16-09, 03:51 AM

Upgrading processor is worth it or not depends on your purpose of HTPC. If you use a good discrete graphics card, 5050e should be good enough for video playback, recording/watching TV and ripping/remuxing DVD/BD (for encoding you may want a quad-core). If you use IGP, then you should skip a HT 2.0 processor and go with a HT 3.0.

OK, that's what I had in mind. I figured the 5050e would do decently for now, but when I start piling up a blu-ray collection I'd want the 605e/905e for faster encoding. I ordered a Sapphire 4670 so HT 2.0 should be fine.

Thanks.

Nomgle

04-16-09, 06:10 AM

Marc_G

04-16-09, 06:26 AM

Marc_G

04-16-09, 06:36 AM

Marc,

I would be hesitant to use a 95W CPU with stock cooler in a small box like that. The 4850e/5050e 45W might be a better choice with nearly as good performance. I have a 4850e in my media server and using the stock cooler it never goes above 32c even under full load. You might take one last look at benchmarks for the 7750 and the 5050e to decide. Edit: here's a review for you to look at that I just found. http://www.legitreviews.com/article/850/1/

Remember the coupon code on the hard drive I mentioned on the last page if ordering from Newegg. $10 off.

The PSU I'll be going with is the Nexus Value 430 seen here (http://www.silentpcreview.com/Nexus_Value_430) at Silent PC Review taking their top spot for silence and quality power. I found it for sale here (http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=nexus_quiet_power_supply.html) at End PC Noise on sale ($79.99) and if you get a few 'Real Silent' fans to go over $100 shipping is free.

2GB should be fine, but ram is cheap, what's another 30 dollars to max out and be sure?

@Maxvla:

Thanks. I'll probably up the RAM to 4GB. About the processor/heat: without a discrete GPU or even tuner card, the case shouldn't be too crowded, right? I'm thinking to try the stock fan and see how it goes, and if a problem crops up with the 7750 I'll get something better to cool it off.

The approach I'm taking is spend less now without wasting money... so I would rather get the 7750 as a powerful-enough processor with knowledge I might be in for another $30 later, than buy a lower power processor that I'll then never use again if I replace it.

@renethx:
Thanks again for the help! I'll check out that tuner review place.

Marc

renethx

04-16-09, 07:06 AM

Quick Question : Is an Intel Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (1M Cache, 2.20 GHz, 800 MHz FSB) up to the job of playing back Blu Ray these days, obviously coupled with a video card capable of HD decoding ?

Will any cheap modern ATI or nVidia card do the trick, or would it need a better card ?
Yes, of course. Radeon HD 2xxx or higher or GeForce 8xxx (except a few) or higher.

Audio requirement? S/PDIF, analog, HDMI (stereo LPCM, DD, DTS), or HDMI (multichannel LPCM, DD, DTS). As HDMI audio is integrated in GPU, you need to consider this aspect at the same time.

pcmike

04-16-09, 08:52 AM

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the optical out (and analog out for that matter) does not have the bandwidth to carry complete lossless multi-channel LPCM. May want to wait for renethx to come along and correct me if I'm wrong, but thats what I always thought. I was under the impression the only way to get full lossless MPCM on a 780G mobo was to use a discrete ATI video card which would give you audio and video of a single HDMI. I may be wrong though....

@PCMike:
Maybe I mis-spoke on the audio. I'll be using the onboard optical out to go to my receiver. Not sure why I wrote in S/PDIF last night! Tired, I guess. The optical out seems to be spec'ed at 8 channels. Am I correct on this? The optical out will go directly to my receiver; the HDMI just needs to carry video to the TV. I don't use the TV for any sound-handling duties. Will this work ok for 7.1 sound?

re: Analog/digital: My intention is to dump cable entirely as soon as I get this running, so lack of analog cable tuner is no big deal. And soon there will be no analog OTA stations anyway. I'm going HD all the way, at least as far as recording. I'll get plenty of SD content via netflix/DVD/internet, I suppose.

Thanks!

Marc

renethx

04-16-09, 09:57 AM

Marc_G

04-16-09, 10:23 AM

S/PDIF (coaxial or optical=TOSLINK) cannot carry multichannel lossless audio (=LPCM). It carries stereo LPCM, Dolby Digital (EX) and DTS (ES); the latter two are lossy compression formats. The only way to carry multichannel LPCM is HDMI (but not every HDMI solution supports it; Radeon HD 2xxx/3xxx supports stereo only).

Thanks renethx for adding that clarity. Please indulge one more ignorant question.

My receiver is an Onkyo TX SR603 from 2005, and it supports Dolby digital and DTS. Probably doesn't support newer or fancier non-lossy protocols. So, the motherboard optical out I'm planning on using will do fine to drive 7.1 sound to the reciever, right? True it will be lossy due to old style protocols used, but I'm used to it. :-)
Is that correct?

Thanks!

Marc

pcmike

04-16-09, 10:36 AM

Marc_G,

It may only support Dolby Digital and DTS, but does it also not support LPCM? I'm not up with the old receivers, but I was under the impression that even older receivers do LPCM? Again, I really don't know. But if the receiver does Dolby, DTS, and LPCM I would still think it'd be best to use a discrete video card (a la 4670). If however, your Onkyo does in fact NOT support LPCM than optical would be fine.

djordan

04-16-09, 10:38 AM

OK! You've all got me (too) convinced that a discrete card which supports M-LPCM through HDMI may be in my near future (despite my original objective to "rough it" with IGP for a while)

So, now I see a 4670 for $50! and it's reported to be quiet.
Do you think this card might install properly, be sufficiently quiet, and remain stable?
Or do you think I'd be buying a discount-brand PITA and kick myself for months for trying to save $20 or $30?

Apollo AP-HD4670
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16814140095

PS
an Asus M3N78 Pro (nvidia 8300) is on the way to replace my "not-so-successful" ECS A780GM-A

renethx

04-16-09, 10:59 AM

Thanks renethx for adding that clarity. Please indulge one more ignorant question.

My receiver is an Onkyo TX SR603 from 2005, and it supports Dolby digital and DTS. Probably doesn't support newer or fancier non-lossy protocols. So, the motherboard optical out I'm planning on using will do fine to drive 7.1 sound to the reciever, right? True it will be lossy due to old style protocols used, but I'm used to it. :-)
Is that correct?
TX-SR603 does not support HDMI. So you have to use S/PDIF or analog if you like or not. (BTW the max number of discrete channels Dolby Digital EX supports is 6.1.)

renethx

04-16-09, 11:36 AM

Marc_G

04-16-09, 11:54 AM

TX-SR603 does not support HDMI. So you have to use S/PDIF or analog if you like or not. (BTW the max number of discrete channels Dolby Digital EX supports is 6.1.)

OK, as expected I'll go optical out (at 6.1, albeit) to the Onkyo.

When I bought the receiver, the premium on HDMI-enabled ones was obscene. I've been using component cables at 1080i just fine for these last few years. Going HTPC is the first time I'm venturing into HDMI land. But, I have no need to use that cable for sound. I'll go direct from the HDMI port of the MoBo to the TV, and run the optical out to the receiver.

Eventually the HTPC will be the only component feeding video to the TV but for now there are a few other things (DVRs, old DVD player) hooking into it.

Marc