Guide to Building a HD HTPC [Text View] - Page 4

ES_Revenge

01-09-08, 07:29 PM

Calling XP a 7 year old OS is ridiculous. 7 years ago is early 2001. Remember an OS called "Windows 2000"? XP was released in late October of 2001 - a little over 6 years ago.

Okay great that you can point out the technicalities of it being only 6 years old but who cares really? 6 or 7 years, there's no difference. They're both still well over 5 years. And yes 6 years is OLD, period. Calling it not old is what's ridiculous. This is the world of computers we're talking about here, not A/V gear. Why don't you go back to using a PIII 1Ghz or a 1.6Ghz P4 or something? Why not use a Radeon 8500 or GeForce 3 for your video card? What about a 2x DVD writer or just a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive for that matter? I'll tell you why not--because those things stink! No one would actually use those unless they had to, not in the first world anyway. Those things were "high end" when XP came out, sure, but are you going to use those now and tell me they aren't old? Are you going to say "hey, it's ridiculous to call the Radeon 8500 old!"? Gimme a break.

If people all "stuck with" their Radeon 8500s and PIIIs do you think we'd have anything we have today? Do you think there would be HDMI on PCs, C2D/Q CPUs, HDDs in the TBs, or even anywhere near as many HTPCs out there? When XP came out how many people really had an HTPC? Now they are far more common. But if everyone had said "hey I like my PC, it's not old, I'm not upgrading", where would we be now? We wouldn't even be having this discussion...

SP2 (which represented a huge overhaul and was practically a new OS) was released in August of '04....
Wait say what now??? :confused: "Practically new OS"? Wait where's the smiley for LMAO? Jokes, practically new. Good one. I've been using XP since it was a beta; SP1/2 added a few things here and there but it certainly wasn't any "practically new" OS. I had a good laugh though. :D

And the version of XP that many people use for HTPCs is Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 which won't be 7 years old until some time in 2011.
Give over. MCE doesn't give some magical new lease on life and a new birthdate to XP. MCE is just a program. Now yes MS makes you install the entire thing as XP MCE, but that's only because of the original nature of MCE--it was largely an OEM thing the way MS had it. In fact even today, you can't technically buy MCE2005 unless it's 1. OEM version (which MCE before Vista has to be), 2. purchased "with hardware". They could have easily made it an installable program, like Office, but due to the way they set it up it was meant so people had to buy a PC with it on there already. With 2005 they loosened that up a bit, but it wasn't until Vista that it just became something anyone was expected to use.

In any event a program does not make the OS new. I mean when did the last Office come out? Year ago or something? I guess that means XP with the latest office is <1yr old? :rolleyes:

Oh and SP3, that's coming out soon too, so I guess now XP will be a few days old after that. Oh wait by that logic XP with SP3 is actually so new it's negative days old! ROFL.

Again give us a break.

PS: Despite all your crazy calculations and dates, MS has already set the end of Mainstream support for XP as April '09, not 2035 or whatever you think it will be.

Also, let's not forget that Vista (which is based on the server version of Windows XP, Windows Server 2003) was originally supposed to ship in late 2003 but MS announced delay after delay until they finally began their beta releases in 2005.
What on earth are you going on about now??? I mean really like we're talking about XP being 6 years old here, that's what it is. No need to mention every other version of windows that ever existed for purposes of utter irrlevancy. It's great that Windows Back-From-the-Dead edition or whatever else you can think up came out in 2006.5 or some nonsense like that, but that's not what we're talking about is it?

Again XP is old, support is ending soon and that's about that. XP won't even be available to OEMs after June of this year, btw--that's the end of supply dates to them from MS. I'm sure XP 3rd-World-Edition SP5 might come out after that, but again that doesn't make it new; and we don't live in the 3rd world here either.

I don't understand why you had to duck into a phone booth and become The Vista Crusader instead of just explaining things like this.
LOL Vista Crusader :D Alright alright, I agree this is certainly not the time and place for a Vista/XP debate so that's about it for me on that topic. However I'm not really trying to be a Vista Crusader I'm just saying staying in yesterday helps no one.

As for the technical differences and benefits as I said there are many. There's a thread right on this very forum regarding the audio benefits, for example. Here it is, hopefully that points you in the right direction (and out of the past) ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=713073

dazzo17

01-09-08, 11:40 PM

For a HTPC is there any difference besides watts using the Corsair VX or HX power supplies eg quieter or are both models a good choice.

Karyudo

01-10-08, 12:40 AM

I announced "Software Guide" but I haven't decided even the contents yet. A possibe table of contents is

- Operating System and Front End
- Play/Rip/Burn DVD, BD, HD DVD
- Play/Rip/Burn CD
- Play/Record TV (OTA (NTSC, ATSC)/analog cable/unencrypted QAM)
- Listen to Radio (FM/Internet)
- Play/Store/Organize Video Files
- Play/Store/Organize Audio Files
- View/Store/Organize Pictures
- Browse Internet
- HTPC Gaming

Each chapter should include:

- A brief explanation of each function
- List of a couple of popular applications.
- A brief practical guide to each applications.

Well, writing down TOC is easy, but writing substantial contents is not so easy. Even updating hardware part is not easy because new hardware (video cards, motherboards, CPUs etc.) is released every couple of months. Eventually I will write software part, but finish writing, say, three months later at best.

This sounds brilliant. I really, really appreciated the near-exhaustive collection of hardware info and practical summaries and recommendations when I went to pick components to build my HTPC, and now I'm really missing not having a similar renethx(TM) compendium for the software part. AVS Forum itself suffers terribly from a "low SNR" problem. But what this thread does like no other I've ever seen is massage and cull all the raw data into something incredibly focused, clear, and authoritative. Please bring that same rigor to the software end at your earliest convenience!

AVS being the mess it is, and yet it still being the first stop of zillions of users, shows that the power of tons of users going out and fiddling with stuff and reporting back is pretty formidable. Is there any way we mere followers of the thread and askers of questions could help with compiling the definitive HTPC software guide? Say, by filling in data in an online spreadsheet/database, for example? Start out with rows for questions to be answered (e.g. "Plays .ISO files natively?" "Free as in beer?"), and columns representing as many frontends as possible (e.g. MCE, VMC, Meedios, JRMC, Media Portal, etc., etc.), and let the users go to town filling in and verifying information.

Donny Bahama

01-10-08, 01:39 AM

I agree this is certainly not the time and place for a Vista/XP debate so that's about it for me on that topic.Well thank goodness for that!As for the technical differences and benefits as I said there are many.If you're finished hijacking this thread, maybe you could elaborate on that statement? (Jeez, how many times do I have to ask?!) You say there are many advantages, then you give a single example and post a link to one thread. If you don't know what these technical advantages are, then you don't know that there are "many" of them. If you do know what they are, then how about actually contributing something useful to this thread?

Donny Bahama

01-10-08, 02:10 AM

Windows also supports RAID. And neither Linux nor Windows is bootable from an array without hardware support, i.e., a BIOS. I see no advantage of one OS over the other.That's incorrect; Linux is bootable from an array (though it's not generally advisable) but your point still doesn't make sense to me. Linux/BSD are free. Windows is not. Linux/BSD support robust, high performance RAID arrays in software, while Windows requires the expense of a hardware RAID controller. How can you not see an advantage there?

renethx

01-10-08, 02:27 AM

As between the 8500/8600GT and the 2600 Pro/XT with the current drivers, is one a clear choice for XP-based systems??

There seems to be no clear choice. NVIDIA works fine for some system but ATI may not work as well, and vice versa. Buy a NVIDIA card (or an ATI card) and test it with your system, but be prepared to buy another in case the card does not work well.

renethx

01-10-08, 02:30 AM

For a HTPC is there any difference besides watts using the Corsair VX or HX power supplies eg quieter or are both models a good choice.
Both are good, but HX is modular cabling system and may be better for a crammed system.

renethx

01-10-08, 02:33 AM

Windows requires the expense of a hardware RAID controller.
I guess HappyFunBoater is talking about Windows Sever 2003/2008 that supports software RAID (5). Widows Server is pricey (~$400), however. Windows XP can also support software RAID 5 by modifing some system files (Using Windows XP to Make RAID 5 Happen (http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/11/19/using_windowsxp_to_make_raid_5_happen/)).

HappyFunBoater

01-10-08, 07:01 AM

That's incorrect; Linux is bootable from an array (though it's not generally advisable) but your point still doesn't make sense to me. Linux/BSD are free. Windows is not. Linux/BSD support robust, high performance RAID arrays in software, while Windows requires the expense of a hardware RAID controller. How can you not see an advantage there?

How the heck can an OS boot from a degraded array without having RAID support in the BIOS? Linux can't even load if the BIOS doesn't understand how to load the kernel.

lorddraco

01-10-08, 09:15 AM

How the heck can an OS boot from a degraded array without having RAID support in the BIOS? Linux can't even load if the BIOS doesn't understand how to load the kernel.

why not? If you configure the software raid properly. You do can still boot from the other copy of the disk.

So .. it is just a matter how you configure the software raid. Both in Windows (I mean server version) and in Linux. Although it is been a longest time I have configure Linux but I do configure before when I am using RH9. So with advancement, the software raid should be even faster, better and easier.

The advantage of Linux software raid over windows is performance. In same configuration setup, we can tune the linux to run faster on software raid (small footprint) as compare to the overbloated windows. I tired that and have to fall back to buying a cheap ATA RAID that support at least RAID1 for my server OS. (I have HPT1810A supporting another 4 disk in RAID 5 for data)

HappyFunBoater

01-10-08, 11:00 AM

why not? If you configure the software raid properly. You do can still boot from the other copy of the disk.

The "other copy"? You're talking about RAID-1. What about RAID-10, 5 or 6 where the kernel is spread across multiple disks. It won't boot under any OS.

So .. it is just a matter how you configure the software raid. Both in Windows (I mean server version) and in Linux. Although it is been a longest time I have configure Linux but I do configure before when I am using RH9. So with advancement, the software raid should be even faster, better and easier.

The only way to boot is to put the loadable software in a non-RAID (or RAID-1) partition.

The advantage of Linux software raid over windows is performance. In same configuration setup, we can tune the linux to run faster on software raid (small footprint) as compare to the overbloated windows. I tired that and have to fall back to buying a cheap ATA RAID that support at least RAID1 for my server OS. (I have HPT1810A supporting another 4 disk in RAID 5 for data)

"Overbloated". OK, we're getting into religious war territory, and I'll let it go. No need to get a discussion on who's parents are qualified to tweak Linux or just install Windows. Linux will win every time if you have the skills.

lorddraco

01-10-08, 11:30 AM

The "other copy"? You're talking about RAID-1. What about RAID-10, 5 or 6 where the kernel is spread across multiple disks. It won't boot under any OS.

The only way to boot is to put the loadable software in a non-RAID (or RAID-1) partition.

"Overbloated". OK, we're getting into religious war territory, and I'll let it go. No need to get a discussion on who's parents are qualified to tweak Linux or just install Windows. Linux will win every time if you have the skills.

Cause for OS, software RAID 1 is recommended and not RAID10, 5 or whatever. Well .. of course, linux vs windows is extremely touchy topic. For me .. I am okie with both platform. cheers ... :)

Donny Bahama

01-10-08, 12:30 PM

The "other copy"? You're talking about RAID-1. What about RAID-10, 5 or 6 where the kernel is spread across multiple disks. It won't boot under any OS.

The only way to boot is to put the loadable software in a non-RAID (or RAID-1) partition.Incorrect. First off, it has nothing to do with BIOS support - you're still thinking in terms of HW RAID. For a SW RAID (and I'm talking about RAID 5 here), you have to configure Linux so that the raid tools are loaded before the root filesystem is loaded (a pretty advanced configuration.) As I said before, it's generally not a good idea because if the RAID goes down it's way more difficult to recover, but the simple fact is that Linux certainly can boot from a RAID 5 array. That said, this whole discussion of booting from an array is still a red herring wrt the original issue of advantages of Linux+SW RAID over Windows+HW RAID."Overbloated". OK, we're getting into religious war territory, and I'll let it go.I don't want to get into another debate here, this thread has been hijacked enough already, but there is a very real issue here that bears consideration... A *nix (and I'm lumping FreeBSD in there) kernel, file system, and RAID tools can be loaded into less than 80MB (and as little as 16MB) of memory. The processor overhead is very low, too (usually less than 20%). That leaves a ton of RAM and a lot of CPU horsepower to perform all the XOR operations - which on a Windows+HW RAID would be performed by a processor on the HW RAID controller which is a far weaker processor than the system CPU (even if you're using an old P3 or even P2 CPU).

HappyFunBoater

01-10-08, 02:08 PM

Incorrect. First off, it has nothing to do with BIOS support - you're still thinking in terms of HW RAID. For a SW RAID (and I'm talking about RAID 5 here), you have to configure Linux so that the raid tools are loaded before the root filesystem is loaded (a pretty advanced configuration.) As I said before, it's generally not a good idea because if the RAID goes down it's way more difficult to recover, but the simple fact is that Linux certainly can boot from a RAID 5 array.

Now, hang on a second. We seem to be in agreement. I said that you can't boot off a RAID-5. Then you seemed to describe how the RAID tools (which includes the kernel) have to be loaded before the filesystem (which is RAID'ed). That's what I've been saying. The initial code load CAN'T be loaded from a RAID array because the BIOS would have to understand the striping layout of the RAID tools, kernel, etc. However once that code is loaded, the BIOS is out of the picture and the rest of the OS can load from the RAID. What do we disagree about?

That said, this whole discussion of booting from an array is still a red herring wrt the original issue of advantages of Linux+SW RAID over Windows+HW RAID. I don't want to get into another debate here, this thread has been hijacked enough already, but there is a very real issue here that bears consideration... A *nix (and I'm lumping FreeBSD in there) kernel, file system, and RAID tools can be loaded into less than 80MB (and as little as 16MB) of memory. The processor overhead is very low, too (usually less than 20%). That leaves a ton of RAM and a lot of CPU horsepower to perform all the XOR operations - which on a Windows+HW RAID would be performed by a processor on the HW RAID controller which is a far weaker processor than the system CPU (even if you're using an old P3 or even P2 CPU).

Yep, I agree completely that a RAID controller has a vastly weaker CPU. Software RAID is ALWAYS faster - if you have the CPU horsepower to spare, which you probably do, unless you're doing a lot of RAID-6 (Reed-Solomon, not EvenOdd or other wacky array types) writes. I think we're in agreement performance is not the main reason to buy a HW RAID controller - unless we're talking about writes. One huge reason to buy a RAID controller is to have a large, non-volatile, write-back cache. Good RAID controllers have a battery to backup hundreds of MB's of memory so that the write-backs can be coalesced and sorted for MUCH more efficient writes - especially on a RAID-5. You can't do battery-backed write-backs with a standard motherboard and a UPS.

rcliff

01-10-08, 04:28 PM

I just wanted to chime in and thank renethx for this excellent guide. This is a terrific resource with a wealth of information.

soyuppy

01-10-08, 06:26 PM

There seems to be no clear choice. NVIDIA works fine for some system but ATI may not work as well, and vice versa. Buy a NVIDIA card (or an ATI card) and test it with your system, but be prepared to buy another in case the card does not work well.
I started off with the nVidia 8500GT, then I switched to the ATI 2600XT. I have with Mits DLP.

My reason for exchanging the 8500GT was the stability and lack of support in util software. My other reason was hoping that the 2600 XT would solve my overscan problem...but it appears this is the limitation on the DLP--there's no 1:1 pixel mapping unlike LCD.

So far, I'm in favor of ATI, especially when it comes to the software that support the card. ATI has the Catalyst Control Center(CCC), while nVidia has this nTune Control?. I think ATI CCC beat hands down when it come to functionality and usability. nTune interface is pretty crappy. Sorry, I don't mean to bash nVidia, the driver and the cards may by very good, but you also need util software that allow configuration and tweak. May be I just get a bad version of nTune, but I thinkg I downloaded from nVidia.

Anyway, the CCC has option that automatically OC your card in your set up. I was able to get OC the core up to 845. Not much, but some :)

Haven't test any HD video yet, still trying to workout the other software issue.

soyuppy

01-10-08, 06:30 PM

I just wanted to chime in and thank renethx for this excellent guide. This is a terrific resource with a wealth of information.

Sometime I wonder where he get his stuff too. I mean, this could be the technical reference for just about everything. Just the other day, I wanted to find out what the bandwidth of a 100Mbs link is, and there it was, under List of Bandwidth ...keep it up!!!

Valnar

01-10-08, 07:26 PM

ES_Revenge,

Your points about Vista are not quite valid for an HTPC. There are audio benefits to Vista only if you use them, but that's about it. I have an ATI card so I have no problems with video for XP. There is also less DRM with XP.

Many of us see Windows XP like Windows 98 and Vista like Windows ME. This is not an uncommon analogy on the Internet. ME was certainly newer than '98, but not superior. Back then it wasn't HTPC use, but game compatibility. 98 had that in spades, both over ME and Win2000. Times of course changed and that is no longer the case.

Every bit of important HTPC hardware or software out there (TV tuners, front ends, most drivers, DVD software, encoders, SageTV, MyHD MDP-130, etc) in the past several years were made for XP. There is no denying that. Most of us want to make a computer act like a standalone device and compatibility is simply higher on XP today. I applaud that you can get everything you want to use to work on Vista, but that is not the case for everybody. IMO, you are simply not doing as much with your HTPC as others. ;)

Will most of us run Vista in the future? (if not now) -- yes, probably. But I also don't see a need to go to Vista just yet. XP works fine, and in some cases which may be hard to pinpoint....even better. (At my work, we have to use XP. Vista doesn't work with many of our apps)

I don't intend to start a flame fight, so please don't take this as such. But I hope I vaguely illustrated the reasons some of us still like to use XP for this particular niche purpose.

-Robert

dazzo17

01-10-08, 08:18 PM

How important is it to get a memory kit 2gb vs 2 1gb sticks of same ram. I ask because in Oz things are harder to get hold of.

renethx

01-10-08, 08:35 PM

How important is it to get a memory kit 2gb vs 2 1gb sticks of same ram. I ask because in Oz things are harder to get hold of.
Simply a 2GB kit is guaranteed to work in dual channel mode. Memory manufacturers often change memory chips in memory modules of the same model and sometimes (but rarely) this causes malfunction in dual channel mode. For example, the chips that have been used in Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 are:

- Micron D9Dxx (BT-x)
- Micron D9Gxx (B6-x)
- Micron B
- Micron D9Gxx (B6-x)
- Elpida E
- Elpida
- Elpida H
- Infineon B/C
- ProMOS
- Nanya B
- Powerchip

(End user never knows that.)

dazzo17

01-10-08, 08:51 PM

thanks I will have to track some down.

Donny Bahama

01-11-08, 12:05 AM

I think we're in agreement performance is not the main reason to buy a HW RAID controller - unless we're talking about writes.Yes, I think we're in agreement. And dollars are in favor of SW RAID as well; I'm sure we can agree on that, too.I said that you can't boot off a RAID-5. Then you seemed to describe how the RAID tools (which includes the kernel) have to be loaded before the filesystemLet's not sidetrack this thread any further with this OT issue. I know it can be done because I know other sysadmins who have done it, but I'm not sure I could even pull it off (and I certainly can't think of any reason I'd want to), let alone explain it to you. Maybe you could try googling "software RAID" and "bootable array" - I'm sure there's no shortage of info out there.

And now we join our regularly scheduled thread, in progress...

BrianD73

01-11-08, 12:30 AM

Rather than start a new thread (and since I took most of the recommendations from this thread), I wanted to post my planned HTPC shopping list to see if there was anything wrong with my combination. I'm going to be using this PC for gaming and for watching DVDs, movies off of the HD (x264, ripped DVDs, etc) and OTA HD programs. Here is my current list:

- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor
- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 Rev. 2.0 LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
- Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864AA804
- EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0
- Scythe SCNJ-1100P 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler
- CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 620W Power Supply
- SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (x2)
- COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case

I haven't picked a DVD drive yet (should be fairly simple is it won't be HD), and I do need a suggestion for the OTA tuner card.

Thoughts?

Edit: I have an additional question with the operating system. Is it safe to run Vista yet on a HTPC+Gaming machine? I'm assuming that Home Premium is the way to go, but Newegg has a "system builders edition" for about half the price of the retail product. Any reason not to go this route?

BenSanford

01-11-08, 09:00 AM

I'm assuming that Home Premium is the way to go, but Newegg has a "system builders edition" for about half the price of the retail product. Any reason not to go this route?

The difference is that with the builder's edition, you're on you own for support, but since you are building the system that shouldn't be a problem. The other 'downside' is that apparently MS expects that the system builder edition is for a system that won't be changed significantly over time, so while you can do most upgrades, you can't swap out the motherboard on your system at a later time without having to hassle with getting another copy of Vista.

I bought the system builder version and an happy with it.

Ben

tyee

01-12-08, 02:03 AM

Hey Guys what about this MB --

DFI LP UT P35 T2R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard

It's very highly rated on newegg!

renethx

01-12-08, 04:21 AM

OCWorkBench (http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php?%20threadid=70082)

AMD will officially announce the new DX10 IGP on 23rd Jan 2008. To all international readers, this is a bad move by AMD as the launch is only for the China.

Boards will go on sale right after 23rd while other regions in the world will have to wait for an official launch at CeBIT 2008 on 5 March 2008.

So it looks like that GeForce 8200 mGPU (MCP78) comes first (already announced in CES; availble in late January to eary February).

scmeis1

01-12-08, 10:13 AM

This is my first post on these forums. I am avid else where. I keep reading about putting my htpc together but people keep saying gaming. Who cares about gaming, the point of an HTPC is to be just that a HTPC.

Before I get asked I have a gamer with qx9650 on a maximus formula with 8G G.skill watercooled platform. IT also has a promise 16 port sata raid card with 10T of storage and a 8800GT overclocked to hell. My 3Dmark06 is 15978 so with this out of the way.

I am dead set on 2 parts of my new HTPC. The powercolor 3850 extreme with an HDMI output. It does output sound in HD, I have confirmed that with powercolor. The other is the LG GGC-H20L for blu-ray and HD-DVD playback.

Where I am stuck is horse power. The powercolor works best with PCI-E 2.0, so the question is which direction do I go?

AMD or Intel
Intel I was considering a Q6600 w/ P35 board or X38 board.

Amd I was considering a X2 5000+ black edition CPU, but since I am ususally all about intel, do not know much about amd boards.

I think 4G of ram is plenty of throughput of HD content, sound and video.

Since this HTPC is going to be streaming from my upstairs gamer, through my home gigabit network (good to be a CCIE here). I do not need much of a HDD.

The case well, i have to consider it attractive but possibly have a remote. I do not care if I have to add a remote.

My 52" samsung DLP wil be connected through my Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver.

Ok this gives you the facts and background. What do you think?? I have read lots of good suggestions elsewhere, but I have heard this is the place to go to get the real facts. Thanks!

Valnar

01-12-08, 10:28 AM

I am dead set on 2 parts of my new HTPC. The powercolor 3850 extreme with an HDMI output. It does output sound in HD, I have confirmed that with powercolor. The other is the LG GGC-H20L for blu-ray and HD-DVD playback.

Where I am stuck is horse power. The powercolor works best with PCI-E 2.0, so the question is which direction do I go?

AMD or Intel
Intel I was considering a Q6600 w/ P35 board or X38 board.

Amd I was considering a X2 5000+ black edition CPU, but since I am ususally all about intel, do not know much about amd boards.

I think 4G of ram is plenty of throughput of HD content, sound and video.

Since this HTPC is going to be streaming from my upstairs gamer, through my home gigabit network (good to be a CCIE here). I do not need much of a HDD.

Welcome to AVS. Yes, this is the place for all HTPC related needs, bar none. Incidentally, I'm a CCNP myself by day. :)

Multiple cores (well, past two anyway) won't help you with HTPC duties. In this case, I'd recommend the E6750 or E6850. If you can wait another few weeks, the new E8400 or E8500 would be an even better choice. All of that horsepower can play almost anything you throw at it, especially considering that when the drivers are configured correctly (or working at all!), that ATI video card will do the heavy lifting. Even if you can afford it, I don't recommend a quad-core for an HTPC because it'll get hotter, require more (ie. possibly 'louder') cooling and use more electricity for something that we like to think of an appliance. Might as well keep keep it quiet, cool and low'ish powered for something that may stay on 24/7.

renethx has posted an Excel spreadsheet within this thread that illustrates all the motherboard options. I'm partial to the Gigabyte P35 boards myself. I don't think you'll need PCIe 2.0, but it won't hurt if you are set on an X38 board.

Assuming you run Vista, yah, 4GB RAM is great. But your HTPC won't need it unless it's doing non-video-watching duties too. I wouldn't argue against 4GB though at all.

-Robert

HappyFunBoater

01-12-08, 11:22 AM

Assuming you run Vista, yah, 4GB RAM is great. But your HTPC won't need it unless it's doing non-video-watching duties too. I wouldn't argue against 4GB though at all.

-Robert
Adding to Robert's comments...

You'll probably only be able access about 3.3GB of memory on Vista 32-bit due to address range limitations. (The video card, BIOS, etc., take up some of the 4GB limit.) You'll have to go to 64-bit to gain access to the entire 4GB of RAM.

And once you go to 4GB and 64-bit, you'll start to run into driver issues with some hardware, such as the Hauppauge capture cards. In general I've got everything working on my 64-bit system but make sure you research the components before making the switch.

MurrayW

01-12-08, 01:29 PM

HappyFunBoater

01-12-08, 02:26 PM

HFB, I'm in the process of thinking about upgrading my HTPC. I'll have Hauppauge capture cards as well. If you don't mind, could you tell me what your hardware setup is and what you had to do to overcome the 64-bit problems? Since I am pretty much starting from scratch, and don't paln to do this again for several years, I would like to make it as future-proof as possible which might include 4GB ram and 64-bit to be able to use it all.
thanks,
Murray

I gave up on the Hauppauge 1800 after a few weeks and returned it. Supposedly reducing the memory solved most people's problems, but I never got it to work. Similar problems were reported on the 1600 and various USB products from Hauppauge. It would scan channels but never displayed a picture without returning an error. I went with an AVerMedia card and it's been perfect.

As far as other hardware, I went with a fanless ATI HD2600XT video card in an Intel DP35DP motherboard with the E6850 CPU (also fanless). Video drivers have been rock solid and the machine is damn fast. With only a single 18cm fan the system stays cool enough at full load, and it's almost completely silent. The only problem I've had is the Intel temp and fan monitoring software doesn't work with 64-bit Vista. But SpeedFan and Everest work great. I also had problems with a Logitech AF webcam and Skype, but they seemed to work out the driver issues several weeks ago.

As far as software, Advanced WMA Workshop (to convert music formats) is the only thing I've found to not work. I think it worked with less memory, but the company hasn't been responsive to support emails.

I can't think of any other issues, but if I do I'll be sure to post them. Let me know if you have any other questions.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 02:53 PM

Adding to Robert's comments...

You'll probably only be able access about 3.3GB of memory on Vista 32-bit due to address range limitations. (The video card, BIOS, etc., take up some of the 4GB limit.) You'll have to go to 64-bit to gain access to the entire 4GB of RAM.

And once you go to 4GB and 64-bit, you'll start to run into driver issues with some hardware, such as the Hauppauge capture cards. In general I've got everything working on my 64-bit system but make sure you research the components before making the switch.

I h ad vista 64 from day one, and helped get driver sets ready at first. So oh boy do i know about driver issues. creative was the worst!

I was considering the Gigabyte p35-dq6 if I went intel. I here that it can allow you to use your video card and let you decode the audio out it's spdif. Then again, i also here its damn good at outputting video and audio through its HDMI. The whole point is money is not a concern, the concern is to build something that works with my nero 8 media home. I have all my movies categorized by blu-ray, hd-dvd, and regular dvd. I want to be able to stream them down stairs to play on the 52" samsung dlp. The audio will be output to my onkyo. I was even looking for a UPnP blu-ray/hd-dvd player that could play streamed movies. hell 1000$ is nothing if it does what I ask.

So the issue remains, the powercolor 3850 extreme was rated as one of the best HD movie players that decoded both vc-1 and h.242. The only question was how to output the audio, as I have read many people have had issues with lossless. As for horse power, I can not wait. I have to have this built this week, so waiting is not an option. Though upgrading later is fine with me.

So direction comes to mind, Intel or AMD. I have read a ton that says go AMD due to power and heat. Memory is always key, more memory the better things run. I have 8 Gig on my other rig, so I intended on 2 or 4 gig on this.

Whoa, lots to think about. I do have Pdvd ultra, (only way to play the actual movie is to turn into an iso and mount it.) I have nero 8 ultra, I have read about just about every player. Questin is which one outputs the audio signal the best and which does the video.... Argg the room is spinning LOL

scmeis1

01-12-08, 03:21 PM

You already have a good mb and enough RAM. What you need are:

- 16-port SATA RAID controller card. E.g., HighPoint RocketRAID 2340, PROMISE SuperTrack EX16350 (HW XOR and RAID 6). Insert the card to the second PCIe x16 slot of the Maximus Formula board.

The last configuration may be the cheapest and simplest.

While I agree with most of this, there are problems with the promise ex16350. I own the card and use the maximus formula. The major problem is that you can not have your OS drives on this controller. Vista complain about any raid driver while the promise controller is in use. It will not install, i went round and round with microsoft, and even their help desk is useless. I had to run 2 WD raptors on the onboard raid, then put the promise controller back in. Then I could boot up my drives. If u try to run your OS off the promise raid card, you will just spin your wheels until you give up. Trust me, I did it for 3 days with promise help desk and microsoft. Promise finally told me that this was how it had to be done. I currently use my promise controller with 10 WD7500aaks drives in a Raid 6 using 2 x (5x3) sata hot swap cages.

This is seperate from my HTPC i am currently trying to build above.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 06:43 PM

I h ad vista 64 from day one, and helped get driver sets ready at first. So oh boy do i know about driver issues. creative was the worst!

I was considering the Gigabyte p35-dq6 if I went intel. I here that it can allow you to use your video card and let you decode the audio out it's spdif. Then again, i also here its damn good at outputting video and audio through its HDMI. The whole point is money is not a concern, the concern is to build something that works with my nero 8 media home. I have all my movies categorized by blu-ray, hd-dvd, and regular dvd. I want to be able to stream them down stairs to play on the 52" samsung dlp. The audio will be output to my onkyo. I was even looking for a UPnP blu-ray/hd-dvd player that could play streamed movies. hell 1000$ is nothing if it does what I ask.

So the issue remains, the powercolor 3850 extreme was rated as one of the best HD movie players that decoded both vc-1 and h.242. The only question was how to output the audio, as I have read many people have had issues with lossless. As for horse power, I can not wait. I have to have this built this week, so waiting is not an option. Though upgrading later is fine with me.

So direction comes to mind, Intel or AMD. I have read a ton that says go AMD due to power and heat. Memory is always key, more memory the better things run. I have 8 Gig on my other rig, so I intended on 2 or 4 gig on this.

Whoa, lots to think about. I do have Pdvd ultra, (only way to play the actual movie is to turn into an iso and mount it.) I have nero 8 ultra, I have read about just about every player. Questin is which one outputs the audio signal the best and which does the video.... Argg the room is spinning LOL

Ok after hours of research today, I have started to narrow down options.

P/S Corsair CMPSU-520HX
Sound card ASUS Xonar D2X 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Express
Video card Powercolor 3850 extreme
HDD 2x WD1600AAJS
Blu-ray/HD-DVD LG GGC-H20L

MoBo I have 3 in mind, unsure at the moment.
ASUS P5E-VM HDMI
GA-P35-DQ6
GA-P35-DS3R

I am still undecided on RAM, processor and case. I am not sure if I should get a case with a remote or buy a remote setup.

renethx

01-12-08, 07:31 PM

CPU

It depends on where video playback process is done, CPU or GPU. GPU can accelerate playing back BD / HD DVD movies with PowerDVD or Digital Theater (or Nero?). In this case, a Celeron or Sempron single-core processor is enough. Howerver, hardware acceleration is not avaiable for many mkv files right now. So playing back these files is done by CPU and a relatively fast CPU is necessary:

- Core 2 Duo or Pentium Dual-Core, 2.2GHz (or higher). L2 cache size does not matter at all.
- Athlon 64 X2, 2.4GHz or higher.

System Memory

1080p 24-bit color video at 24 frame rate requires memory access at the rate:

1920 x 1080 x 24 x 24 = 1194 x 10^6 bit/second
= 149 x 10^6 byte/second
= 142MB/s

Apart from video playback, the minimum system memory is 512MB for XP and 1GB for Vista. So

- 1GB for XP
- 2GB for Vista

is just enough for HTPC.

renethx

01-12-08, 08:03 PM

Video playback process consists of

Decoding (bistream processing, iDCT, motion compensation, deblocking)
Post Processing (deinterlacing etc.)
Decoding is done by the dedicated engine UVD (universal video decoder) and post-processing is done by 3D engine (shader units). The main difference between 2600 and 3850 is 3D eingine:

- 2600: 120 stream processors, 128-bit memory bus, 256-512MB RAM
- 3850: 320 stream processors, 256-bit memory bus, 512MB RAM

UVD is idenitical (UVD+ is just a marketing-hype?). Considering 2600 achieves near perfect HD HQV scores, there is no evidence that post-processing by 3850 is better than 2600.

So I would say, go with HD 2600 Pro/XT for a pure video playback HTPC. If you want a modest gaming HTPC, go with HD 3850.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 08:05 PM

Video playback process consists of

Decoding (bistream Processing, iDCT, motion compensation, deblocking
Post Processing (deinterlacing etc.)
Decoding is done by the dedicated engine UVD (universal video decoder) and post-processing is done by 3D engine (shader units). The main difference between 2600 and 3850 is 3D eingine:

- 2600: 120 stream processors, 128-bit memory bus, 256-512MB RAM
- 3850: 320 stream processors, 256-bit memory bus, 512MB RAM

UVD is idenitical (UVD+ is just a marketing-hype?). Considering 2600 achieves near perfect HD HQV scores, there is no evidence that post-processing by 3850 is better than 2600.

So I would say, go with 2600 Pro/XT for a pure video playback HTPC. If you want a modest gaming HTPC, go with HD 3850.

i wanted the HDMI output which is only available on the powercolor that i could find. What would you suggest?

renethx

01-12-08, 08:16 PM

i wanted the HDMI output which is only available on the powercolor that i could find. What would you suggest?

That's not correct. Almost every HD 2600 XT model has HDMI output and every HD 3850 model has it (actually comes with a ATI-proprietary DVI-HDMI adapter that supports both video and audio).

scmeis1

01-12-08, 08:26 PM

That's not correct. Almost every HD 2600 XT model has HDMI output and every HD 3850 model has it (actually comes with a ATI-proprietary DVI-HDMI adapter that supports both video and audio).

Which Mobo would you suggest based on using the HD 2600XT and the ASUS sound card?

renethx

01-12-08, 08:37 PM

Which Mobo would you suggest based on using the HD 2600XT and the ASUS sound card?
Well, any decent P35 ATX / G33 mATX mb is fine. I prefer:

- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L for ATX
- ASUS P5K-VM for mATX

GA-P35-DS3L recently got Editor's Choice Award at AnandTech and highly praised by x-bit labs.

x-bit labs (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/ga-p35-ds3l_10.html#sect0)
None of the three Asus mainboards on Intel P35 Express chipset that we have tested so far left such a favorable impression as Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 08:52 PM

Well, any decent P35 ATX /G33 mATX mb is fine. I prefer:

- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L for ATX
- ASUS P5K-VM for mATX

GA-P35-DS3L got Editor's Choice award at AnandTech and highly praised by x-bit labs.

x-bit labs (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/ga-p35-ds3l_10.html#sect0)

Ah and it was just the board I was about to purchase. Thanks! Now I am having a difficult time choosing a HD 2600XT, I am a nvidia guy. I love how I can overclock the hell out of them, but seeing this is blu-ray/Hd-dvd playback, I had to go with ATI. They are just ahead of nvidia and at a much lower price point. I could care less about price, but I want quality! I think I am going to settle on HIS 512 HD 2600XT. Any preference, I am glad to have a reference like this. I am very good at giving wireless and network advice. It is my job with a extremly large global company. Thank you again!

Oh yes, a decent HTPC case. I do not need extravagant. I need remote control (can be bought), and nice looking. I was considering the SILVERSTONE LASCALA 10 CS-SST-LC10B.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 09:18 PM

renethx

01-12-08, 09:32 PM

Using your guide here, I decided the best bang for my buck was a Core 2 Duo E6420. I figure I can over clock to about 3.0Ghz which is plenty. Ill just have to find a good cooler, low noise! AGain thank you for all this valuable information.

Wait! How much do you pay for E6420 (FSB 1066MHz, 2.13GHz)? At eBay? It's an old processor with FSB 1066MHz. If it's a retail box (~$190), then it's not the best bang for the buck at all. Wait till January 20 and buy E8200 (45nm, FSB1333MHz, 2.66GHz, ~$163) or E8400 (45nm, FSB1333MHz, 3.00GHz, ~$183) or Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (FSB 800MHz, 2.20GHz, ~$95) if you want to save money.

Overclocking any C2D/Pentium DC procesor to 3.0GHz is no problem with GA-P35-DS3L. And remember that the L2 cache size (1MB, 2MB, 3MB, 4MB or 6MB) does not matter at all for video playback.

E6xxx: 4MB L2 cache
E8xxx (45nm replacement of E6xxx): 6MB L2 cache
E4xxx: 2MB L2 cache
E7xxx (45nm replacement of E4xxx): 3MB L2 cache
E2xxx: 1MB L2 cache.

scmeis1

01-12-08, 09:34 PM

Damn I wish I knew that. I will have to look at that when it comes out. I only paid 160$ for it. Ill have to turn around and sell it, but thats ok. I am known for jumping to fast. I just needed something up around the 16th. I will have no problem selling it though!

Just purchased the RAM too. OCZ Platinum Rev2 rated for 4.4.4.15 at 2.1v. That is very nice tight timings :)

renethx

01-12-08, 09:41 PM

scmeis1

01-12-08, 09:44 PM

Wait! How much do you pay for E6420 (FSB 1066MHz, 2.13GHz)? At eBay? It's an old processor with FSB 1066MHz. If it's a retail box (~$190), then it's not the best bang for the buck at all. Wait till January 20 and buy E8200 (45nm, FSB1333MHz, 2.66GHz, ~$163) or E8400 (45nm, FSB1333MHz, 2.66GHz, ~$183) or Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (FSB 800MHz, 2.20GHz, ~$95) if you want to save money.

Overclocking any C2D/Pentium DC procesor to 3.0GHz is no problem with GA-P35-DS3L. And remember that the L2 cache size (1MB, 2MB, 3MB, 4MB or 6MB) does not matter at all for video playback.

E6xxx: 4MB L2 cache
E8xxx (45nm replacement of E6xxx): 6MB L2 cache
E4xxx: 2MB L2 cache
E7xxx (45nm replacement of E4xxx): 3MB L2 cache
E2xxx: 1MB L2 cache.

Where did you get those prices. I am going to see if I can pre-order!

renethx

01-12-08, 09:50 PM

Where did you get those prices. I am going to see if I can pre-order!

The price is 1000 qty. Actual retail price is slightly higher. For example, E6750 (65nm FSB 1333MHz, 2.66GHz) is $183 (1000 qty.) but is sold at around $190.

The price list is here (did you really read my guide?). It's well-known all over the Internet.

tyee

01-12-08, 10:25 PM

renethx

01-12-08, 11:01 PM

@renethx
If I'm set on a quad (Q6600), which I am for heavy video processing is there any new quad processor coming out soon that I should wait for instead of the Q6600?

PS, I read the xbitlabs review of the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L, just reading the Abit IP35Pro review now. The burnt power supply connector was interesting. Was he overdoing it or should that have not happened?

He seems to like the Abit as one of his favourites so far in my read. What's your take on these two for overclocking and heavy video encoding work (VC1 and AVC).

Q9300, 2.50GHz, FSB 1333MHz, 6MB L2, 95W, $266 is worth waiting (Q1 2008; March?). By analogy with QX6850 vs. QX9650 (both 3.00GHz), the power consumption will be remarkably lower.

An annoyance of GIGABYTE boards is that when Vcore manually selected in BIOS, Vcore never drops at idle even if EIST/C1E is on (multiplier drops fine). Abit board does not suffer from this problem. If you want to raise CPU voltage and still want cooler running at idle, an abit board (IP35-E, IP35 or IP35 Pro) is a way to go. This is particularly true for a quad-core processor. (But raising voltage is unecessary up to 3.00GHz for Q6600.)

rcliff

01-12-08, 11:49 PM

I'm building a new machine in an OrigenAE H6 case and am trying to decide on the mATX mobo. So far I have narrowed it down to the Asus P5E-VM, Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R or EVGA 112-CK-NF77-A1. I plan to add a video card so the IGP is not a big deal. All have pros and cons but meet my basic specs including SATA RAID 5 support. One downside to the Gigabyte board is no S/PDIF out so I lose a slot for an audio card. Any suggestions to sway me one way or the other?

EDIT: Oops, my bad. It looks like the Gigabyte boad has a S/PDIF header but no ports so I'd need some kind of add on S/PDIF bracket if I go that route.

ricardol

01-13-08, 03:30 AM

renethx: I wanted to congratulate you on your excellent guide. Its so full of usefull information that it took me a while to finish reading it.

I decided to build the low end System #1 Also note that the AMD 5000 black edition has gone down in price to $99 which makes this a cheaper system:

I am getting:

GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H AMD AM2 Socket $74.98
SAMSUNG HD501LJ 500GB SATA 7200 RPM $104.98
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ Dual Core Black Edition $99
Crucial Ballistix 2GB kit DDR2-800 PC2-6400 $74.90 - $30 MIR= $44.90
ANTEC New Solution Series NSK2480 $79.90 - $30 MIR = $49.90
Scythe NINJA MINI $39.90

Total $413.66 after rebates
And im paying 21 bucks in shipping charges mostly for the case

Now I do have a question: I own a Harmony 880 Remote. This Antec case does not come with an IR port, so what would be my best option to add to the case so I can control my HTPC with my harmony remote?

The other option is to go with the Antec Fusion Black case but that will add another 100 bucks to the cost but will come with the IR and VFD display.

Im planning to use this system entirely as HTPC to view HD files and that includes MKV files, so hopefully this is enough since the CPU can be easily OC to 3.0Ghz

Twoboxer

01-13-08, 04:44 AM

I'm gradually updating my home AV network to digital, and atm am adding an HTPC to the DirectTV DVRs and other stuff I have. The HTPC would be used for DVD playback into a 7 year old 65" 1080i Mitsubishi Diamond, along with some 480i TV recording (for the next year or so) to distribute TV to five other locations throughout the house . . . and BD when I finally upgrade the AV Receiver and TV. No gaming, nothing else.

Based on your guide (fabulous, btw), I'm considering two engines to drive my new HTPC:

1) GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H + AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ BE
2) EVGA 112-CK-NF77-A1 LGA 775 + Intel Core 2 Duo E6850

The rest of the kit is the same for both:

Antec Fusion Black
Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800
Scythe Ninja Mini
Samsung Spinpoint 500gb (I have a large NAS elsewhere on the gigabit wired network)
LG Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM GGC-H20L
An appropriate video card if/when needed.

I'd really prefer the comfortable Intel solution for its faster processor (I can OC either or neither as required) and lower power (heat) requirements. I have never used AMD and generally have preferred nvidia graphics for games, MMORPGs, and miscellaneous work.

But I'm grudgingly (lol) favoring the AMD approach because the Gigabyte mobo provides an easy 1080i COMPONENT output that I need immediately, and because I plan to use a Mitsubishi DLP WD-65833 for which (I think I have learned) the overscan control ATI provides would be better.

Have I got this right? This stuff is pretty new to me . . . is there an easy way to get 1080i component out of the Intel solution? . . . are the ATI graphics all that important for my planned next TV?

Sorry for the noob questions . . . thanks for any advice . . . and thanks for all your work.

renethx

01-13-08, 09:35 AM

renethx

01-13-08, 09:39 AM

Now I do have a question: I own a Harmony 880 Remote. This Antec case does not come with an IR port, so what would be my best option to add to the case so I can control my HTPC with my harmony remote?

The other option is to go with the Antec Fusion Black case but that will add another 100 bucks to the cost but will come with the IR and VFD display.
The cheapest way is add Microsoft Remote Control and Receiver for Media Center PC with Windows (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=065). You need only the IR receiver, but it's cheap (only $22) anyway.

renethx

01-13-08, 10:18 AM

I'm gradually updating my home AV network to digital, and atm am adding an HTPC to the DirectTV DVRs and other stuff I have. The HTPC would be used for DVD playback into a 7 year old 65" 1080i Mitsubishi Diamond, along with some 480i TV recording (for the next year or so) to distribute TV to five other locations throughout the house . . . and BD when I finally upgrade the AV Receiver and TV. No gaming, nothing else.

Based on your guide (fabulous, btw), I'm considering two engines to drive my new HTPC:

1) GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H + AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ BE
2) EVGA 112-CK-NF77-A1 LGA 775 + Intel Core 2 Duo E6850

The rest of the kit is the same for both:

Antec Fusion Black
Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800
Scythe Ninja Mini
Samsung Spinpoint 500gb (I have a large NAS elsewhere on the gigabit wired network)
LG Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM GGC-H20L
An appropriate video card if/when needed.

I'd really prefer the comfortable Intel solution for its faster processor (I can OC either or neither as required) and lower power (heat) requirements. I have never used AMD and generally have preferred nvidia graphics for games, MMORPGs, and miscellaneous work.

But I'm grudgingly (lol) favoring the AMD approach because the Gigabyte mobo provides an easy 1080i COMPONENT output that I need immediately, and because I plan to use a Mitsubishi DLP WD-65833 for which (I think I have learned) the overscan control ATI provides would be better.

Have I got this right? This stuff is pretty new to me . . . is there an easy way to get 1080i component out of the Intel solution? . . . are the ATI graphics all that important for my planned next TV?
GA-MA69GM-S2H + AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ BE is definitely the cheapest and onboard video is fine perhaps until you play BD. 5000+ BD is also fine for your purpose.

I am not sure if NVIDIA GPU works with your TV. If you want to go with the Intel platform, you will need to buy a discrete graphics card for component video out. A possible combination is

- Core 2 Duo E8400 (3.0GHz, January 20, ~$183)
- ASUS P5K-VM
- Sapphire Radeion HD 2600 XT (comes with component video cable)

HappyFunBoater

01-13-08, 10:22 AM

The cheapest way is add Microsoft Remote Control and Receiver for Media Center PC with Windows (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=065). You need only the IR receiver, but it's cheap (only $22) anyway.

Another option to keep in mind is getting a "free" remote and receiver with a video capture card. I got the AVerMedia ATSC PCIe capture card and the remote appears very, very similar to the Microsoft remote above. (Of course nothing is ever free, but the cost difference in the remote and non-remote version of the card was in the $20 ballpark if I remember correctly.)

rcliff

01-13-08, 10:39 AM

Either Asus P5E-VM HDMI or Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R should be good. I gave a brief description of building a coaxial S/PDIF bracket in the previous "Core 2 ..." thread. The eVGA board has only 4 SATA ports.Thanks. I'm thinking the P5E-VM is probably the way to go. I've read about some people having problems here but it seems like most if not all of this is related to HDMI. If I'm using a separate video card, it doesn't look like there are too many negatives with this board.

etcarroll

01-13-08, 01:50 PM

renethx -

Not quite sure of your point here, are you saying that the Q9300 will be cooler based on extropalation of the qx9650 vs. QX6850?

Gene

Q9300, 2.50GHz, FSB 1333MHz, 6MB L2, 95W, $266 is worth waiting (Q1 2008; March?). By analogy with QX6850 vs. QX9650 (both 3.00GHz), the power consumption will be remarkably lower.

renethx

01-13-08, 06:28 PM

Not quite sure of your point here, are you saying that the Q9300 will be cooler based on extropalation of the qx9650 vs. QX6850?
Yes.

8IronBob

01-13-08, 06:49 PM

Hmm... Sounds like having the LG Super Multi Blu BD/HD-DVD-ROM and a Hauppauge HVR-1800 should come into play here... Was that specified in any of the builds that your guide has?

Silvestru

01-13-08, 06:53 PM

Hi,
has anybody heard of '4Core1333-FullHD' motherboard from Asrock?

will apreciate any comments.

renethx

01-13-08, 07:06 PM

Hmm... Sounds like having the LG Super Multi Blu BD/HD-DVD-ROM and a Hauppauge HVR-1800 should come into play here... Was that specified in any of the builds that your guide has?

Agreed. LG Super Multi Blu BD/HD-DVD-ROM is a kind of standard optical drive right now. Unless you already have Xbox HD DVD player, this is still a way to go. HVR-1800 should be on the TV tuner recommendations. (But I haven't written it yet.)

renethx

01-13-08, 07:08 PM

Hi,
has anybody heard of '4Core1333-FullHD' motherboard from Asrock?

will apreciate any comments.
It's available only in the Asian market. See this post.

scmeis1

01-13-08, 09:04 PM

The price is 1000 qty. Actual retail price is slightly higher. For example, E6750 (65nm FSB 1333MHz, 2.66GHz) is $183 (1000 qty.) but is sold at around $190.

The price list is here (did you really read my guide?). It's well-known all over the Internet.

Yeah, but i kept jumping around.

scmeis1

01-13-08, 10:52 PM

HIS Hightech Radeon HD 2600XT H260XTP512DDN-R iSilence III Video Card - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Shopping/ShoppingItem.aspx?ItemList=N82E16814161203&MainItemList=N82E16814161203

This is what I have settled on, what do you think?

rcliff

01-13-08, 11:55 PM

After much contemplation and reading I'm leaning towards the following components.

OrigenAE H6 case (enroute)
http://www.origenae.com/images/products/h6/h6_htpc_strip.jpg
ASUS P5E-VM HDMI motherboard
http://www.asus.com/999%5Cimages%5Cproducts%5C1912%5C1912_m.jpg
SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT or MSI Radeon HD 2600XT RX2600XT-T2D512EZ video card
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/ProductImageCompressAll200/14-102-703-03.jpghttp://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/ProductImageCompressAll200/14-127-298-08.jpg
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 CPU
3 GB Crucial Ballistix PC-2 6400 Memory
Antex True 480 (have already)
Lite-on DH-4O1S-11 blue-ray drive
4 x Seagate ST3300831AS 7200.8 Sata HDD's
Cooler - Any reason not to use stock fan/heatsink included with CPU?
I'm also looking to install at least 1 120mm fan in the side of the Origin case for better airflow. Any tips on techniques/tools to cut the case and/or comments on above specs would be great.

archibael

01-14-08, 01:22 AM

After much contemplation and reading I'm leaning towards the following components.

ASUS P5E-VM HDMI motherboard
SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT or MSI Radeon HD 2600XT RX2600XT-T2D512EZ video card

Do not in any way let me dissuade you from buying a product which will add value, however small, to my stock options, but why get the P5E-VM HDMI if you're buying a discrete card?

Then again, if you're planning to be a guinea pig on running both the discrete and intergated graphics together in XP, more power to ya. Please report back what happens!

renethx

01-14-08, 01:48 AM

but why get the P5E-VM HDMI if you're buying a discrete card?
His requirements are:

- FSB 1333MHz
- mATX
- 5 SATA ports (4 for HDD, 1 for optical drive)
- RAID 5
- S/PDIF port

Surprisingly, ASUS P5E-VM HDMI ($135) is the only mb satisfying all the condition. GIGABYTE GA-G33M-DS2R ($130) satisfies all but the last. If he adds a S/PDIF bracket, then the total cost will be higher than P5E-VM HDMI.

renethx

01-14-08, 01:49 AM

renethx

01-14-08, 02:00 AM

Any tips on techniques/tools to cut the case and/or comments on above specs would be great.
E8400 3.0GHz 45 nm processor is available on January 20. The price is the same as E6750.

This is not a recommended way, but you can save about $60:

- eVGA 112-CK-NF75-K1 GeForce 7100 mATX mb ($59 AR)
- SATA to IDE adapter (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812206001) ($15)

lorddraco

01-14-08, 12:11 PM

E8400 3.0GHz 45 nm processor is available on January 20. The price is the same as E6750.

This is not a recommended way, but you can save about $60:

- eVGA 112-CK-NF75-K1 GeForce 7100 mATX mb ($59 AR)
- SATA to IDE adapter (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812206001) ($15)

woah .. but I wonder how long does this CPU takes to come to Singapore.

Anyway .. I hope to get this in 1 weeks time in local shops (no Newegg or tigerdirect here)

1. Silverstone GD01MX or LC20M (Preferred GD01MX - Zalman HD-160 too expensive for me)

2. Intel 6550 will do fine for me (6750 can be considered as it is SGD 31 more)
3. Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R
4. Kingston DDR2 HyperX CL4 2GB (2 x 1GB)
5. An normal LGE DVD (No HD for me as SG Bluray or HD-DVD is expensive)
6. 400GB Samsung or Seagate 320GB drives x 1
7. PowerColor 3850 or 3870 if I tempted to spend a little more (60 be precise)
8. Seasonce S12 Energy +550 (Already got one and love it)
9. Logitech MX3200 or Wave
10. Some good CPU cooling fan - Zeroterm BTF90 or Sycthe Mini.

Any kind comments?

rcliff

01-14-08, 12:55 PM

E8400 3.0GHz 45 nm processor is available on January 20. The price is the same as E6750.Thanks, good call. I think it's definitely worth waiting at this point

rcliff

01-14-08, 01:23 PM

I found this xbitlabs review (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/intel-wolfdale.html) of the E8000 series using the Asus P5E mobo. Looks like the E8200 will also beat out an E6750.

BTDT

01-14-08, 02:43 PM

tyee

01-14-08, 05:47 PM

scmeis1

01-14-08, 05:51 PM

I am on my way. Just purchased the following -

Video Card - My monitor is Dell 30" 2560x1600. Do I need ATI 3850 or is ATI 2600XT good enough. Also, I read I should get 512MB for a monitor with my resolution??

Thanks, great thread!

I hope so, as I am going to play my HTPC through my 52" samsung DLP. I purchased the HIS HD2600XT 512MB, I hope it plays well on my television!

renethx

01-14-08, 07:56 PM

renethx,

Thanks very much for this thread! I am on the verge of building my first VMC HTPC, and am leaning toward a setup that fits in the slight form factor of the Antec Fusion case. If I intend to do things such as internet video and movie watching (e.g. Amazon Unbox, Vongo, etc.) in parallel with the regular VMC operations of recording and playback (via the main box plus two extenders) is there a compelling reason for me to look into a quad core processor? The upcoming 45nm processors look like the absolute best choice due to power and heat considerations, but I am going to hate waiting until March for the quad core model.

It depends on how much CPU time each application use. Playing back SD movies or recording SD/HD TV uses very little CPU time. Playing back HD movies is CPU-intensive. For your purpose a dual-core processor is perhaps enough, but you may feel more comfortable with a quad-core. The heat dissiaption of Q6600 is not terribly bad unless you overclock it. In my system Q6600 runs at 50 deg at full load (with NINJA MINI).

renethx

01-14-08, 08:12 PM

I am on my way. Just purchased the following -

Abit IP35 Pro MB
Q6600 Processor
Crucial RAM DDR2-800 (Was nearly going to go for the DDR2-1600 but why??)
Antec 900 case (I like vertical)

Looking now for the final items -

Power supply - I currently have Antec True 430 on my current P4-2.8GHz, can I use it for my new system, if not what is suggested for the Abit MB? I read something about making sure the power supply has all the connectors required for MB and Video card! Is this actually true that all P/S don't work on all MBs?

Video Card - My monitor is Dell 30" 2560x1600. Do I need ATI 3850 or is ATI 2600XT good enough. Also, I read I should get 512MB for a monitor with my resolution??

Hard Drive - Currently have WD 75GB Raptor for last few years, very happy. Should I just get another for the new system, anything better?

Coolers- Very confused here, Abit MB has heat pipes, this is all new to me! Do I need to buy CPU cooler for the Q6600 or is the stock one good enough, assuming it comes with a stock one? Do I need any more coolers for anything else in the box. Some CPU coolers don't fit in all cases I've read. Please suggest a Q6600 cooler.

Thanks, great thread!

Antec True430 is a bit old; it comes with a 20-pin ATX cable (24 pin is the current standard) and no 6-pin PCI Express cable. If you go with HD 3850, you will need a new PSU. If you go with HD 2600 XT, True430 is OK (you can use 20-pin for a 24-pin mb).

If you are going to play games, you need 512MB video RAM and should go with HD 3850. Otherwise HD 2600 XT 256MB is enough (but the price difference between 2600 XT 256MB vs 2600 XT 512MB is only $10).

Rapter is fine but out of date. Newer 7200rpm drives is better (almost as fast as and much quieter). But you don't have to spend money ...

The stock cooler of Q6600 is good. If you want to spend money, Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme with Scythe S-FLEX S-FDB 120mm Fan SFF21E is good.

BrianD73

01-14-08, 09:14 PM

Anybody willing to comment on the configuration and recommend a tuner card for OTA HD?

Rather than start a new thread (and since I took most of the recommendations from this thread), I wanted to post my planned HTPC shopping list to see if there was anything wrong with my combination. I'm going to be using this PC for gaming and for watching DVDs, movies off of the HD (x264, ripped DVDs, etc) and OTA HD programs. Here is my current list:

- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor
- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 Rev. 2.0 LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
- Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864AA804
- EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0
- Scythe SCNJ-1100P 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler
- CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 620W Power Supply
- SAMSUNG SpinPoint T Series HD501LJ 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (x2)
- COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case

I haven't picked a DVD drive yet (should be fairly simple is it won't be HD), and I do need a suggestion for the OTA tuner card.

Thoughts?

Edit: I have an additional question with the operating system. Is it safe to run Vista yet on a HTPC+Gaming machine? I'm assuming that Home Premium is the way to go, but Newegg has a "system builders edition" for about half the price of the retail product. Any reason not to go this route?

renethx

01-14-08, 09:40 PM

Anybody willing to comment on the configuration and recommend a tuner card for OTA HD?
HDHomeRun is a very good choice (it's an external networked tuner). There are plenty of good internal PCIe cards, AVerTV Combo etc.

jerome8283

01-14-08, 09:53 PM

After applying a couple of upgrades, I would like to use my current PC for playback of Blu-Ray & HDDVD. I’ve read through a couple of threads including the Guide to Building a HD HTPC and have a couple of questions.

1. Is it true there is no real advantage of the current HDMI solution over the existing DVI + S/PDIF solution or has things changed since this was written?

I have a Dell Dimension 8400 Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3GHz running XP Pro w/ 1GB RAM (will be upgrading to 2GB DDR II SDRAM ) and two 160GB disks

2. Dell offers a couple of video card upgrades, e-GeForce 7600GS 512MB, NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GS, nVIDIA Quadro NVS 440 256 MB PCI, 128 MB NVIDIA Quadro NVS 285 x1 PCI and the VERTO 8600 GT 256MB PCIE-VIDADPT. Have any of you guys successfully used these for playback applications? If not which would you recommend for HD playback?

3. Do I need a good PC monitor if I plan to playback via my plasma?
4. Should I upgrade to Vista or stay with XP?

Any honest help you guys can offer would be great.

renethx

01-14-08, 10:13 PM

1. Is it true there is no real advantage of the current HDMI solution over the existing DVI + S/PDIF solution or has things changed since this was written?

I have a Dell Dimension 8400 Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3GHz running XP Pro w/ 1GB RAM (will be upgrading to 2GB DDR II SDRAM ) and two 160GB disks

2. Dell offers a couple of video card upgrades, e-GeForce 7600GS 512MB, NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GS, nVIDIA Quadro NVS 440 256 MB PCI, 128 MB NVIDIA Quadro NVS 285 x1 PCI and the VERTO 8600 GT 256MB PCIE-VIDADPT. Have any of you guys successfully used these for playback applications? If not which would you recommend for HD playback?

3. Do I need a good PC monitor if I plan to playback via my plasma?
4. Should I upgrade to Vista or stay with XP?
1. Has not changed at all. ASUS P5E-VM HDMI is capable of transmitting 24-bit LPCM audio HDMI (for unprotected contents). But in general we will have to wait for PAP (protected audio path) in Vista being established.

2. Among these cards, VERTO 8600 GT is the only choice for BD / HD DVD playback (make sure it is HDCP-compliant). You will see lots of stuttering with any of the other cards as they lack PureVideo HD.

3. ?? If you use plasma for video playback and PC monitor for office work (I don't know), any PC monitor is fine?

4. XP is fine but Vista is better for a NVIDIA card.

jerome8283

01-14-08, 11:07 PM

Thanks renethx. Yes, I have an office monitor.

renethx

01-14-08, 11:16 PM

Thanks renethx. Yes, I have an office monitor.

Even for office work, a 1920x1200 PC monitor is great. Far much easier to edit text documents, let alone spreadsheets.

BTW ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT is perhaps better than GeForce 8600 GT for your system as the latter lacks VC-1 decoder and you will see high CPU usage (say 80%) with P4 3.0GHz when playing a VC-1 encoded disc.

burt_bladers

01-15-08, 08:38 AM

Maybe I missed it in the guide, but what are some recommendations for small LCD panel to go in my case? One that will fit in a 5.25" drive space. I'd like something with an IR interface as well.

edit: Looking at some other posts, is that what a VFD Module is?

renethx

01-15-08, 08:53 AM

Maybe I missed it in the guide, but what are some recommendations for small LCD panel to go in my case? One that will fit in a 5.25" drive space. I'd like something with an IR interface as well.
It's here.

- SilverStone MFP51
- SoundGraph iMON VFD
- Thermaltake Media Lab

The first one is LCD. The latter two are VFD.

gdavis40

01-15-08, 07:09 PM

How about a recommendation for a touchpanel LCD?

jerome8283

01-15-08, 08:40 PM

Even for office work, a 1920x1200 PC monitor is great. Far much easier to edit text documents, let alone spreadsheets.

BTW ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT is perhaps better than GeForce 8600 GT for your system as the latter lacks VC-1 decoder and you will see high CPU usage (say 80%) with P4 3.0GHz when playing a VC-1 encoded disc.

Is the ATI Radeon 2600 XT better on XP ot Vista?

renethx

01-15-08, 09:05 PM

Is the ATI Radeon 2600 XT better on XP ot Vista?
Good on both.

etcarroll

01-16-08, 08:58 PM

renethx -

Just bought a GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L , thinking of a SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16, already have the Crucial ram recommended for the high level ATX build, a case and 320gig SATA hd.

So next decision is the cpu. Which seems better? Torn between buying something cheap now on ebay to tide me over till the E8400 or Q9300 come out - or - do nothing for a month and let the E8400 arrival drive down price of what's out there now.

I do have a C2D 6300 1.8 in my server I got for $80 on ebay, I'd grab another one and use it for next 6 months till the initial rush on the Q9300 passes and the price drops a fraction.

This box will be for video, no gaming.

Yes.

renethx

01-16-08, 09:26 PM

Pentium Dual-Core E2180 2.0GHz or E2200 2.2GHz is a good compromise. E2200 2.2GHz is better than E4300 1.8GHz or E6400/E6420 2.13GHz for video playback (clock speed is everything). Maybe you like it.

I wouldn't be bothered with eBay. Average sold price of E2180 at eBay is around $75. You can find it (OEM version) at the same price at many online stores. E2200 (retail box) is around $90.

Twoboxer

01-16-08, 09:48 PM

Dont know what's the matter with me . . . never said "Thank You" for the advice, renethx . . . so Thank You :)

etcarroll

01-16-08, 09:51 PM

Great - - thanks for the feedback!

Pentium Dual-Core E2180 2.0GHz or E2200 2.2GHz is a good compromise. E2200 2.2GHz is better than E4300 1.8GHz or E6400/E6420 2.13GHz for video playback (clock speed is everything). Maybe you like it.

I wouldn't be bothered with eBay. Average sold price of E2180 at eBay is around $75. You can find it (OEM version) at the same price at many online stores. E2200 (retail box) is around $90.

jerome8283

01-16-08, 10:18 PM

Good on both.

ok cool, thanks. I think I'll stay with XP since Vista won't be around long.

When I connect to my Plasma I can do so via an HDMI cable right? Are there any length restrictions?

renethx

01-16-08, 11:25 PM

ok cool, thanks. I think I'll stay with XP since Vista won't be around long.

When I connect to my Plasma I can do so via an HDMI cable right? Are there any length restrictions?
Yes (don't forget to install Realtek HDMI driver). There is no HDMI specs on cable length. 16 feet (5 m) is no problem. A longer cable may require quaility, I don't know. Please search the forum with three keywords: HDMI cable length.

rcliff

01-16-08, 11:32 PM

I've got almost everything now and am looking forward to starting my build. I should receive the last of the parts on Friday which is the Intel E8400 part# BX80570E8400A. Any idea if this CPU will include a heat sink and fan? I would have expected so with an Intel retail box but I can't seem to find any specs on this.

renethx

01-16-08, 11:59 PM

RhinoGuy

01-17-08, 02:17 AM

renethx

01-17-08, 04:04 AM

pezgarden

01-17-08, 04:15 AM

renethx

01-17-08, 04:25 AM

Hello!

I'm planning to build my first HTPC (I'm running an old P4 2.4gig dell with a Sammy 52" LCD). I'm Bought the Antec P182 case. I'm not a gamer. I am mostly interested in really good 720p and 1080p playback.

Is there any real advantage to for me to wait for the G45 Intel motherboards?

If anyone can clarify something for me, are any of the GPU solutions support x264? I know H264, and VC1.

I've been googgling, but haven't found to much on the g45. Other than speed differences, how does the g35 compare to the g45?

thanks

great thread:-)

miura
Right now GPU acceleration does not work for many x264 files. The problem seems to be encoding parameters of these files. What you need is not a video card or IGP with hw acceleration but a fast processor. For example, Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz or higher.

The main difference between G45 and G35 is that G45 supports the full hw acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2 while G35 supports it only partially. G45 also supports HDMI natively. But G45 will be released half a year later. In April NVIDIA will release MCP7A chipset with full hw acceleration. For the AMD platform, GeForce 8200 (MCP78) mGPU and AMD 780G (RS780) chipset supporting full hw acceleration will be released in February-March. These four chipsets are very promising for HD HTPC.

BTW x264 is a H.264 encoder. So a 'x264 file' means a 'H.264' file encoded by 'x264'.

HappyFunBoater

01-17-08, 06:00 AM

I'm having difficulties with getting this configuration to work. I'm unable to get both rocketraid 2314's to work at the same time. When the first 2314 blue bios screen shows up on the POST, after the scan for hard drives, I get an "OUT OF MEMORY" in the upper left corner of the blue screen and then it hangs. I've booted the system with one 2314 and installed vista, updated the 2314's bios and created an array. But when I install the second 2314, which is at a different bios version (1.2 as apposed to 2.2), I'm unable to proceed.

Anyone have any suggestion on the "OUT OF MEMORY".

I also found it strange that the PCIe x4 slot's 2314 showed it's bios screen first, I was expecting the PCIe x16 slot to be scanned first.

Thanks

First, I admit that I don't know anything about this specific RAID card.

But in general, if you have multiple RAID cards (from the same vendor, of course), then they should load only one copy of the BIOS. This copy is basically a boot-time driver that will see both RAID cards. To the user it will look like one big RAID card. With memory limitations at boot, it's not surprising that two different versions of the BIOS won't load concurrently.

Also, if you install different versions of cards from the same vendor then the BIOS that loads first "should" understand the hardware differences of each RAID card, regardless of version. If you're loading the old version first (which is out of your control - the motherboard BIOS will select the BIOS it loads first) then it may simply not understand how to control the newer card. One way to make the newer BIOS load is to disable the older BIOS, assuming that the card supports this. You should be able to insert only the old card, boot, and disable the BIOS via the BIOS config tool itself. Then insert the new card and only the new BIOS will load. Hopefully it understands how to control the older card.

Of course there's also the chance that this vendor just doesn't support these two cards in the same system. It "should" be something their tech support can easily answer.

Welcome to RAID Hell. Please leave your accordians at the door.

pezgarden

01-17-08, 02:34 PM

The main difference between G45 and G35 is that G45 supports the full hw acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2 while G35 supports it only partially. G45 also supports HDMI natively. But G45 will be released half a year later. In April NVIDIA will release MCP7A chipset with full hw acceleration. For the AMD platform, GeForce 8200 (MCP78) mGPU and AMD 780G (RS780) chipset supporting full hw acceleration will be released in February-March. These four chipsets are very promising for HD HTPC.

Thank you for your information. Though these are not out yet. How do they compare in features? I'll wait longer for the g45 if it is best. i will put a reasonably fast CPU in. my main interest is good 1080p playback and good audio. I have a lot of drives right now. 4 PATA on a raid card. I do like a lot of USBs. I've had problems with hubs.

If I find a good deal on ram, would I be safe in buying it now before the motherboards are out? Or should I wait. I've seen some crazy low prices for ram.

Thanks

miura

rcliff

01-17-08, 02:53 PM

I am sure it comes with a cooler.Cool ;) I've got a tracking number and should have my E8400 tomorrow.

kwolter

01-17-08, 04:10 PM

Hi - New to these forums. And this building guide is awesome. Great work!

Just a few questions about the Low-End II system. Would the video card and motherboard be compatible with Vista?

Also, will the case here support two HD drives?

And lastly is this system as built fairly quiet?

Thanks in advance!

Cobra Commander

01-17-08, 04:41 PM

...The main difference between G45 and G35 is that G45 supports the full hw acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2 while G35 supports it only partially. G45 also supports HDMI natively. But G45 will be released half a year later. In April NVIDIA will release MCP7A chipset with full hw acceleration. For the AMD platform, GeForce 8200 (MCP78) mGPU and AMD 780G (RS780) chipset supporting full hw acceleration will be released in February-March. These four chipsets are very promising for HD HTPC.
...

I have no reason to doubt you, but in regards to Intel and integrated graphics... how much money are you/we really putting on FULL Hardware Acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2, and beyond the hardware capability what sort of money are you/we really putting on the driver support of this FULL HW Acceleration? ...it almost seems to good to be true... :(

I apologize for being such a pessimist, however the only Intel-leaked/provided slides I've seen (and certainly I haven't seen everything you've seen) says things like "Native Hi-Def HW Acceleration" and "Plays HD-DVD and Bluray discs with no additional hardware". See here (http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/4d06-gma_x4500.jpg).

Now, what makes these comments stand out, above and beyond what the current Intel chipset does, as you put it, "...supports it partially."?

What a lot of bloggers and 'online journalists' seem to cite (I can only guess since they don't specify references/sources) is the Chinese HKEPC's slide here (http://www.hkepc.com/?id=412), which specifically points out a motherboard manufacturer as the source of the information. I can imagine reasons on both sides of the coin here, no doubt, but why wouldn't Intel be as bold to make the claims that the ethereal "MB Manufacturer" claims?

...I don't know... I just have such a difficult time believing Intel is going to make such headway that took NVIDIA and ATI two revisions to accomplish... AND do a worthy job of it too...

jerome8283

01-17-08, 06:23 PM

I moved this to another thread.

renethx

01-17-08, 07:31 PM

I have no reason to doubt you, but in regards to Intel and integrated graphics... how much money are you/we really putting on FULL Hardware Acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2, and beyond the hardware capability what sort of money are you/we really putting on the driver support of this FULL HW Acceleration? ...it almost seems to good to be true... :(

I apologize for being such a pessimist, however the only Intel-leaked/provided slides I've seen (and certainly I haven't seen everything you've seen) says things like "Native Hi-Def HW Acceleration" and "Plays HD-DVD and Bluray discs with no additional hardware". See here (http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/4d06-gma_x4500.jpg).

Now, what makes these comments stand out, above and beyond what the current Intel chipset does, as you put it, "...supports it partially."?

What a lot of bloggers and 'online journalists' seem to cite (I can only guess since they don't specify references/sources) is the Chinese HKEPC's slide here (http://www.hkepc.com/?id=412), which specifically points out a motherboard manufacturer as the source of the information. I can imagine reasons on both sides of the coin here, no doubt, but why wouldn't Intel be as bold to make the claims that the ethereal "MB Manufacturer" claims?

...I don't know... I just have such a difficult time believing Intel is going to make such headway that took NVIDIA and ATI two revisions to accomplish... AND do a worthy job of it too...

You can doubt my statement (on G45) with good reasons. In 2006 Intel boldly announced that G35 support full hw acceleration and native HDMI. The information was spread by HKEPC all over the Internet. But in January 2007 Intel changed plan drastically and G35 turned out to be a mediocre IGP. Maybe Intel can implement full hw acceleration with G45, maybe not. But it's not the end of the world. We will have GeForce 8200 and 780G soon. If GeForce 8200 turns out to be successful, then MCP7A should be fine too.

Now the only gripe is the lack of HDMI audio. The keyword is PAP (Protected Audio Path) here. Until it is established, we'd better forget about it rather than rely on sporadic solutions.

Here is another information on G45, published on January 16, 2008.

VR-Zone - Intel GMA X4500HD, X4500 & 4500 Info (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Intel_GMA_X4500HD%2C_X4500_%26_4500_Info/5505.html).

http://resources.vr-zone.com//newspics/Jan08/16/G45.gif

renethx

01-17-08, 08:04 PM

Thank you for your information. Though these are not out yet. How do they compare in features? I'll wait longer for the g45 if it is best. i will put a reasonably fast CPU in. my main interest is good 1080p playback and good audio. I have a lot of drives right now. 4 PATA on a raid card. I do like a lot of USBs. I've had problems with hubs.

If I find a good deal on ram, would I be safe in buying it now before the motherboards are out? Or should I wait. I've seen some crazy low prices for ram.

Thanks

miura

As stated in the above post, I don't much count on G45 and both MCP7A and G45 are still far away from now. GeForce 8200 and 780G will be reasonable solutions for HD HTPC for the next couple of months. You have to use an AMD processor, but that's not terribly bad for HTPC. Both NVIDIA and AMD are very good for HTPC gamers too because they support "HybridPower" that Intel will never offer.

DDR2 SDRAM price may rise in future, but only slightly. You may buy it right now (avoid OCZ or RAM for enthusiasts). Maybe it is safer to buy a RAM certified by the mb manufacuturer.

renethx

01-17-08, 08:23 PM

oxbeard

01-17-08, 11:18 PM

As stated in the above post, I don't much count on G45 and both MCP7A and G45 are still far away from now. GeForce 8200 and 780G will be reasonable solutions for HD HTPC for the next couple of months. You have to use an AMD processor, but that's not terribly bad for HTPC. Both NVIDIA and AMD are very good for HTPC gamers too because they support "HybridPower" that Intel will never offer.

DDR2 SDRAM price may rise in future, but only slightly. You may buy it right now (avoid OCZ or RAM for enthusiasts). Maybe it is safer to buy a RAM certified by the mb manufacuturer.

I've been following this thread daily trying to garner more info for my next build.

Time to pose a question here though. You say avoid OCZ. I'm curious as to your reasons for this. OCZ is what I have been running in my first build and have thus far had no problems. But admittedly, I still a noob to this and was just wondering if I made a mistake or if this was simply a recommendation for HTPC only.

Thanks

renethx

01-17-08, 11:29 PM

I've been following this thread daily trying to garner more info for my next build.

Time to pose a question here though. You say avoid OCZ. I'm curious as to your reasons for this. OCZ is what I have been running in my first build and have thus far had no problems. But admittedly, I still a noob to this and was just wondering if I made a mistake or if this was simply a recommendation for HTPC only.

Thanks

I am sorry for confusion. There are several cheap OCZ RAMs that require high voltage to run that cuases an incompatibility problem with many mbs. This applies to not only OCZ but other enthusiast-class RAM. So I gave a general caution to newbies. If you know what you are buying well, OCZ or any other brand RAM is fine.

archibael

01-17-08, 11:47 PM

I have no reason to doubt you, but in regards to Intel and integrated graphics... how much money are you/we really putting on FULL Hardware Acceleration of H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2, and beyond the hardware capability what sort of money are you/we really putting on the driver support of this FULL HW Acceleration? ...it almost seems to good to be true... :(

Can't comment too much on this; love you guys, but I don't want to be fired. That out of the way, full HW MPEG2 decode will be there; it's on G965 and G35 already. I have not heard specifics on how G45 is actually doing in silicon yet, but early foils indicated full VC-1 and H.264 as "stretch goals". It could very well be they succeeded at meeting those goals; I expect, at minimum, motion comp + variable length decode for VC-1, and motion comp + in-loop deblocking filter for H.264. But I am being utterly honest when I tell you I don't know the status and likely won't until the same time you guys do.

I apologize for being such a pessimist, however the only Intel-leaked/provided slides I've seen (and certainly I haven't seen everything you've seen) says things like "Native Hi-Def HW Acceleration" and "Plays HD-DVD and Bluray discs with no additional hardware". See here (http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/4d06-gma_x4500.jpg).

Now, what makes these comments stand out, above and beyond what the current Intel chipset does, as you put it, "...supports it partially."?

Your skepticism is warranted; I've made no secret of my lack of enthusiasm for our drivers, even when the hardware was decent.

What a lot of bloggers and 'online journalists' seem to cite (I can only guess since they don't specify references/sources) is the Chinese HKEPC's slide here (http://www.hkepc.com/?id=412), which specifically points out a motherboard manufacturer as the source of the information. I can imagine reasons on both sides of the coin here, no doubt, but why wouldn't Intel be as bold to make the claims that the ethereal "MB Manufacturer" claims?

...I don't know... I just have such a difficult time believing Intel is going to make such headway that took NVIDIA and ATI two revisions to accomplish... AND do a worthy job of it too...

Fair enough. Intel generally doesn't do press conferences and announce specific features of the chipsets, which is why you usually hear this stuff through motherboard vendors who leak Intel slides which are not for the general public. In their eagerness to be loved and admired for being clever and leaky, what they don't leak is the disclaimer the presenter always gives (or which is in the presentation itself) that this is the plan at the moment and is subject to change up to the date silicon is released. So we get leaks from the mobo vendors on what Intel is telling them at the time... and then oftentimes disappointment when the vendor gets the latest update right before release.

Is that a good excuse for the (sometimes last minute) changes to chipset graphics offerings? Nope. But the point is: don't believe rumors. Wait for real, actual silicon. If that means you go with another solution in the meantime, so be it. I'd rather you be shocked and impressed that we came through with it than disappointed and pissed that we made you wait for nothing.

RhinoGuy

01-18-08, 01:06 AM

ES_Revenge

01-18-08, 01:55 AM

per tech support at highpoint tech, you can use multiple card depending on the motherboard. The "OUT OF MEMORY" error means the cards are "unable to allocate enough BIOS to allow the card to post".

The motherboard is the suggested Asus P5B-VM DO from the 48 HDD system I
So does anyone have any ideas on how to free up some BIOS memory? I've disabled just about everything I can think of in the bios.

Not really an expert in the BIOS field here, but even if you disable those items in the BIOS they still take up space I believe... Plus there is space reserved for devices which might be there upon booting--cards, drives, etc. It's probably that space which the highpoint cards need to allocate in order to operate.

You can go into the BIOS with a flash program (usually used for updating) and find individual parts to actually delete from there, but I would imagine you really need to know what you're deleting (and what you're doing for that matter) so as not to brick the board.

HappyFunBoater

01-18-08, 07:15 AM

cdbrown

01-18-08, 07:17 AM

Great work on the guide and all the helpful responses renethx.
Currently planning my HD media pc which I'm hoping will play, rip, encode BD/HD-DVD, play streamed HD content and also play some games (def not high end). Design is to not have to upgrade for a very long time if possible - ie if it can do it all now, no reason to upgrade down the track.

CPU - C2Q Q6600
Mobo - GA-P35-DS3
Ram - 2x1gb XMS2 PC-6400 (x2)
GPU - MSI 8600GT Silent Edition 256MB
HDD - Samsung spinpoint 500GB (x2)
Opt - LG GGW-H20L
Case - Thermaltake VF3001BNS
OS - Vista Home Premium 64bit

Not sure about the PSU, cpu cooling side of things. Would this system work well and be HDCP compliant? Dual TV Tuner card will be installed at a later date.

Cheers
-cdbrown

Mascot

01-18-08, 08:31 AM

Can anybody tell me how this low budget rig would do with x264 1080p content, standard DVD and bluray/hddvd content in 1080p ???

Basic needed: 2 PCI slots for two DVB-S2 cards and HDMI straight on board + 7.1 audio integrated chipset. (Thats why I went for the gigabyte)

Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H MB
Corsair XMS2 Xtreme TwinX DDR2 PC6400/800MHz CL5 2x1GB mem
Antec NSK2480 case
Samsung SpinPoint T166 HD252KJ 16MB 250GB harddrive

AMD Athlon X2 BE-2350 (2,1GHz)
or
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ (2,2GHz)

added later: Bluray drive or LG combo drive (DVD-burner laying around until i decide or hddvd is dead ;)) and two Technotrend DVB-S2 tunercards.

Also a couple of 120 mm Noctua fans and perhaps a passive CPU-cooler if it's to noisy and the CPU can stand passive cooling)

Reviews say u need 1.6 ghz E2140 CPU or more for HD-content in 1080p utilizing the video acceleration on the motherboards GPU (in this case ATI's avivo technolgy in the ATI Radeon X1250 GPU)

renethx

01-18-08, 09:08 AM

Would this system work well and be HDCP compliant?
Yes.

I am not objecting to 64-bit OS, but some applications may not work (a recent example is ArcSoft DigitalTheater).

renethx

01-18-08, 09:26 AM

cdbrown

01-18-08, 09:27 AM

Yes.

I am not objecting to 64-bit OS, but some applications may not work (a recent example is ArcSoft DigitalTheater).
Thanks for replying renethx. I have heard about apps not working, but most of the time they are progs I had not heard of before.

In terms of cooling - I was looking at Noctau NH-U12F (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=505974) as it is very quiet and I' like to make sure the Q6600 stays cool. However I think this may be too high as the case has a height of 170mm and the HSF is 155mm. Not sure if the case height includes the feet or not so I'm probably better off going for the scythe ninja mini. Have people been able to just use a HS and the case exhaust fans to keep these Q6600 cool? Is the ninja mini loud?

Cheers
-cdbrown

rcliff

01-18-08, 09:58 AM

I am sure it comes with a cooler.Renethx, I received my E8400 and it is indeed full retail boxed product with cooler. Do you think the stock cooler will be adequate for this CPU since its should theoretically generate less heat than the older core 2 duos?

MurrayW

01-18-08, 10:38 AM

I see the Samsung SpinPoint drives recommended and on everybody's list of components. Are there any speed or reliability advantages of using these over whatever the best deal on a SATA drive is at the time I am ready to pull the trigger and buy all my parts? My HTPC will be in another room in a well cooled equipment closet so acceptable heat and noise should not be an issue for me.

thanks,
Murray

cdbrown

01-18-08, 11:28 AM

The original GPU I was looking at didn't mention anything in the specs on MSI's website about being HDCP compliant so I checked around a bit more and have decided on the Asus EN8600GT Silent 512MB DDR3 (http://www.ebuyer.com/product/132310) unfortunately it's a bit more expensive. Would this card be overkill for seamless BR/HD playback and some gaming? I see alot of posts recommending the ATI 2600 series and not so many the nVidia 8600 series. Are the Ati's better for less money?

crabnebula

01-18-08, 02:12 PM

BTW AMD 780G chipset is coming soon...

Let's hope so... http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20080115PD216.html

etcarroll

01-18-08, 02:40 PM

renethx -

I have ordered the 1st wave of parts, plus the OEM of Vista Home Premium.

Last big item is the tv tuner. I know you've been busy with the other chapters of the guide, but any thoughts on what the top 3 or 5 cards might be.

I have been using a Hauppauge 150 MCE for standard definition cable and a Fusion 3 for OTS HDTV in my present rig.

Gene

Agreed. LG Super Multi Blu BD/HD-DVD-ROM is a kind of standard optical drive right now. Unless you already have Xbox HD DVD player, this is still a way to go. HVR-1800 should be on the TV tuner recommendations. (But I haven't written it yet.)

rooobosmith

01-18-08, 02:56 PM

borgdaddy

01-18-08, 04:32 PM

I think the main advantage to SpinPoint is they are very quiet.

I have one in my Dell PC at work and cannot hear it from two feet away.

I will also have to vouch for the Western Digital 500 GB WD5000AAKS. I have 3 of them in my HTPC and you can't hear a thing sitting right next to them. Very quick as well. Got them at Newegg a couple of weeks ago for 99.99 with free shipping.

HappyFunBoater

01-18-08, 04:50 PM

I will also have to vouch for the Western Digital 500 GB WD5000AAKS. I have 3 of them in my HTPC and you can't hear a thing sitting right next to them. Very quick as well. Got them at Newegg a couple of weeks ago for 99.99 with free shipping.

I strongly agree. I've got two of the 750GB versions in my HTPC and they're almost completely silent. And very fast.

They also claim to have special actuators that withstand thumping bass when your HTPC is next to your speakers. I forget the details, and it may honestly be a bunch of crap, but the spec sheet sure sounds good.

8IronBob

01-18-08, 05:56 PM

Yes, I am looking forward to adding a second 500GB HDD onto my HTPC, so that way I have one HDD running XP MCE 2005, and the second one running Vista Home Premium, so that way I can do stuff in both the old and new OSes. I sort of feel that would be the best move, at a time like this.

My initial drive was a Seagate 500GB SATA/300 that BB had on sale for $99 a few months back.
I probably may pick up that WD 500GB that you mentioned for that same price. When XP goes obsolete, I'm wondering if those two would work in RAID for Vista for a full TB of space?

oxbeard

01-18-08, 05:56 PM

I am sorry for confusion. There are several cheap OCZ RAMs that require high voltage to run that cuases an incompatibility problem with many mbs. This applies to not only OCZ but other enthusiast-class RAM. So I gave a general caution to newbies. If you know what you are buying well, OCZ or any other brand RAM is fine.

Thanks. I see what you're saying. I did have to increase voltage for mine to 2.0

renethx

01-18-08, 07:34 PM

Renethx, I received my E8400 and it is indeed full retail boxed product with cooler. Do you think the stock cooler will be adequate for this CPU since its should theoretically generate less heat than the older core 2 duos?
The retail cooler should be fine as the power consumption is remarkably low (~30W at full load according to x-bit labs (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/intel-wolfdale_11.html#sect0)).

motortiger

01-18-08, 07:43 PM

The mini ninja dropped the CPU temp about 4-5 degrees with arctic silver but too much noise with the stock fan at 2400 rpm's. It's much quieter now I bought a 4 pin PWM fan for it. I don't know why they don't come with one. The ninja fan made more noise the the stock CPU fan.

renethx

01-18-08, 07:44 PM

renethx

01-18-08, 08:59 PM

renethx -

I have ordered the 1st wave of parts, plus the OEM of Vista Home Premium.

Last big item is the tv tuner. I know you've been busy with the other chapters of the guide, but any thoughts on what the top 3 or 5 cards might be.

I have been using a Hauppauge 150 MCE for standard definition cable and a Fusion 3 for OTS HDTV in my present rig.

Gene

Silicondust HDHomeRun (LAN), $170
AutumnWave OnAir GT (USB), $160
AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCIe (PCI Express), $85 (white box), $110 (retail)
Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1800 (PCI Express), $95 (white box), $105 (retail)
Vista View Saber DA-1N1-E Combo (PCI Express), $100
ATI TV Wonder 650 Combo PCI Express (PCI Express), $120

Mascot

01-19-08, 02:21 AM

Athlon 64 X2 2.2GHz is fine for 1080p x264. However it will struggle with BD / HD DVD. I would add a discrete graphics card for this purpose (HD 2600 XT/Pro or HD 3670/3650) rather than overclock CPU to 3.0GHz.

BTW AMD 780G chipset is coming soon that is equipped with UVD. So we don't need a fast processor or a discrete card any longer.

The Gigabyte I've chosen have the Radeon X1250 GPU with ATI AVIVO. Isn't that enough to offload the CPU with bluray/HDDVD?? I'm confused...

No, I don't want to overclock, and I would prefer an integrated solution to keep my HTPC cool & quiet. A discrete graphics card has always been the option, like the silent HD2600XT but I would prefer an onboard solution. This rig will never be used for any gaming. Videoplayback, music and photos and utilizing twin tuner DVB-S2 satellite tv for viewing and recording.

When will the 780G chipset be around? I don't mind waiting another month or two... also I'm gonna check out a Intel based alternative.

Is there any onboard solution with UVD support, HDMI (without adapters), and two PCI slots (for my two DVB-S2 cards) that u can recommend??

ES_Revenge

01-19-08, 03:39 AM

Renethx, I received my E8400 and it is indeed full retail boxed product with cooler. Do you think the stock cooler will be adequate for this CPU since its should theoretically generate less heat than the older core 2 duos?
The stock cooler is definitely adequate, it has to be--that's the whole point of Intel packaging it with the CPU. The only times where it wouldn't be adequate is with high ambient temperature, severely restricted airflow, or when running the CPU out of stock spec (i.e. overclocked).

Plus it all depends on how well you want your CPU cooled. Lower temps are always better, without a doubt... Changing my stock Intel cooler on an E6600 to a Thermalright XP-120 led to a drop in temp on the CPU cores of greater than 12C. So even overclocked, the CPU is running cooler than it did at stock speed, with the stock cooler ;)

I think the main advantage to SpinPoint is they are very quiet.

I have one in my Dell PC at work and cannot hear it from two feet away.
Yes but there are more advantages, it all depends on what SpinPoint we're talking about. The new SpinPoint F/F1 is actually the fastest 7200rpm SATA drive out there right now, and by a bit of a margin. It's actually as fast as/faster than WD's 10k rpm Raptor-X in nearly every category ;)

I will also have to vouch for the Western Digital 500 GB WD5000AAKS. I have 3 of them in my HTPC and you can't hear a thing sitting right next to them. Very quick as well. Got them at Newegg a couple of weeks ago for 99.99 with free shipping.
I think a lot of HDDs are pretty quiet these days. Your WD SE16s are certainly fine drives (and often available on the cheap) but a note for new drive purchasers--other drives like power saving drives are around as fast and now about the same price.

They generate less heat, [theoretically] even less noise; and, of course--less power consumption. Power savings aren't huge as HDDs don't draw that much power to begin with but it's still about half the power. When using mulitple drives, the power savings start to add up.

WD GP drives and Hitatchi HiVert are the most prominent power saving drives these days and the HiVert at least has been priced similarly to WDs SE16 for the last month or so, making it a great choice for HTPC users, multiple drive users, and really all PC users.

renethx

01-19-08, 03:47 AM

The Gigabyte I've chosen have the Radeon X1250 GPU with ATI AVIVO. Isn't that enough to offload the CPU with bluray/HDDVD?? I'm confused...

No, I don't want to overclock, and I would prefer an integrated solution to keep my HTPC cool & quiet. A discrete graphics card has always been the option, like the silent HD2600XT but I would prefer an onboard solution. This rig will never be used for any gaming. Videoplayback, music and photos and utilizing twin tuner DVB-S2 satellite tv for viewing and recording.

When will the 780G chipset be around? I don't mind waiting another month or two... also I'm gonna check out a Intel based alternative.

Is there any onboard solution with UVD support, HDMI (without adapters), and two PCI slots (for my two DVB-S2 cards) that u can recommend??
AVIVO does not necessarily mean UVD. In fact currently no IGP suports hardware acceleration for H.265 or VC-1. If you read Unofficial Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H Mboard HTPC Thread, you will see that the minimum CPU clock is 3.0GHz for BD / HD DVD playback.

780G will be announced on January 23, 2008 but available only in China initially (as the driver for Hybrid CrossFire is not yet good). It will be available early March for the rest of the world. It looks like that GeForce 8200 mGPU (supporting PureVideo HD Generation 3) comes first (February 14?).

A summary of IGPs supporting hw acceleration is here.

8IronBob

01-19-08, 09:18 AM

Wow... 8200 mGPU supporting 3rd gen PVHD? Well, guess that puts my 8800GT to shame.

jerome8283

01-19-08, 11:00 AM

Yes (don't forget to install Realtek HDMI driver). There is no HDMI specs on cable length. 16 feet (5 m) is no problem. A longer cable may require quaility, I don't know. Please search the forum with three keywords: HDMI cable length.

Thanks again renethx. I was over on the ATI Radeon HD thread but those guys are so far ahead they do not entertain simple questions such as this...

Which of the manufactures of the ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT are better to go with for my XP system? There are so many.

Also, I'm assuming the 512 DDR2/GDDR3 memory type cards are best?

Thx

etcarroll

01-19-08, 12:14 PM

renethx -

Once again, thanks.

Now to pull the extra drive out of my existing htpc as I await 'big brown' to start delivering the new parts.

Silicondust HDHomeRun (LAN), $170
AutumnWave OnAir GT (USB), $160
AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCIe (PCI Express), $85 (white box), $110 (retail)
Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1800 (PCI Express), $95 (white box), $105 (retail)
Vista View Saber DA-1N1-E Combo (PCI Express), $100
ATI TV Wonder 650 Combo PCI Express (PCI Express), $120

scmeis1

01-19-08, 08:02 PM

Athlon 64 X2 2.2GHz is fine for 1080p x264. However it will struggle with BD / HD DVD. I would add a discrete graphics card for this purpose (HD 2600 XT/Pro or HD 3670/3650) rather than overclock CPU to 3.0GHz.

BTW AMD 780G chipset is coming soon that is equipped with UVD. So we don't need a fast processor or a discrete card any longer.

I was going full bore Intel until I read this. I started to investigate, and if their claims are true. I think I will wait for this chipset to come out. I looks like it will be able to stream 7.1 audio out through its integrated HDMI port if available. I plan to do this with a HIS HD 2600xt and get a decent AMD 5000+. I am almost convinced that waiting will be worth it now. Even though I bought the gigabyte p35-ds3L board and had been waiting on the e8400 to launch in 2 days.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php%3F%2520threadid%3D70102&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAMD%2B780G%26hl%3Den
Renethx, what is your opinion on the upcoming release of the AMD 780G chipset paired with the SB700 Southbridge chipset. I have been looking at the ASUS M3A78-EMH HDMI

ES_Revenge

01-19-08, 08:37 PM

Wow... 8200 mGPU supporting 3rd gen PVHD? Well, guess that puts my 8800GT to shame.
Well you can't really compare to the 8800. Nvidia doesn't put hardware decode features in those because (and this is their excuse) if you use an 8800-series card you probably have a high end machine with a fast enough CPU to decode HD just with the CPU. I think it's a rather lame excuse, but it's how they market their products anyway. Perhaps they will add acceleration to the 9800 series cards?

renethx

01-19-08, 10:55 PM

Which of the manufactures of the ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT are better to go with for my XP system? There are so many.

Also, I'm assuming the 512 DDR2/GDDR3 memory type cards are best?

Thx
Sapphire (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102700) is a safer choice (control the fan with RivaTuner). You can find the 512MB version with +$20 (but 512MB does not affect video playback performance).

BTW HD 3670, a 55 nm replacement of HD 2600 XT will be released on January 23, 2008. It's slightly better in 3D performance (+5%) and temperature (-9℃), but consumes more power (+8W at idle). A detailed review is [First Review] ATI Radeon HD 3670 256MB aka. RV6358 (http://en.expreview.com/?p=178). Once it (and HD 3470/3450) is released, HD 2600/2400 will be phased out.

pps88

01-19-08, 11:11 PM

renethx

01-19-08, 11:13 PM

I was going full bore Intel until I read this. I started to investigate, and if their claims are true. I think I will wait for this chipset to come out. I looks like it will be able to stream 7.1 audio out through its integrated HDMI port if available. I plan to do this with a HIS HD 2600xt and get a decent AMD 5000+. I am almost convinced that waiting will be worth it now. Even though I bought the gigabyte p35-ds3L board and had been waiting on the e8400 to launch in 2 days.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://my.ocworkbench.com/bbs/showthread.php%3F%2520threadid%3D70102&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAMD%2B780G%26hl%3Den
Renethx, what is your opinion on the upcoming release of the AMD 780G chipset paired with the SB700 Southbridge chipset. I have been looking at the ASUS M3A78-EMH HDMI

Both GeForce 8200 mGPU and 780G will be killer chipsets for HD HTPC. Unfortunately HDMI audio still remains at the S/PDIF level. We have to wait for PAP (Protected Audio Path) in Vista.

scmeis1

01-19-08, 11:56 PM

Hi,

I have been reading all the threads but seem to be missing some basic concept.

I would like to setup a central "Media Server", where I have all my DVDs, CD's encoded.

In my house, I would then like 5 or 6 other "clients" that are beside each one of my TVs, to be able to bring up and see the DVD/CD selected from the server. etc.

I would also like to play or record DVR like functionality from any of the TVs, including OTA,etc. There will probably only be 2-3 "TVs" on at a time viewing TV material.

I already have a 1 G Lan throughout the house.

Clearly, I want each of the clients to be as cheap as possible, since there are many of them.

What do I need:

(1) Server
- Software
- Hardware (I know lots of HD probably in Raid)
- Can I have the tuners here?
- Central Graphics cards for decode and then stream to the other PCs?

(2) Client PCs
- Software
- Hardware
(do I have to have a high end graphics card here, or can I stream it from the server)?
- how powerful a CPU

Thanks!!!

pps

I have that exact setup. I have the my xbox 360 play normal dvd's and hd-dvds. I am building a htpc to play in the living room all formats. My bedrooms plays off the server(and a gamer to boot). My roomate will only be able to view regular dvd's he has a non-HD tv.

You have to decide are you going to store blu-ray/Hd-dvd also? I can tell you right now, I have 10Terabytes of storage and Blu-ray and HD-DVD take up a ton of room. Anywheres from 15G - 52G is the max I have had. Normal dvd's take up 3G - 7.6G abouts. AS you can see HD movies take up from 2 - 8x a normal dvd. It quickly adds up.

I have a high end server.
Qx9650 w/ Asus maximus formula (got it for 1000$ package deal on ebay).
(OC to 4.6 Ghz)

8G of G.Skill RAM
8800GT 512 (OC to 735, 1825 shader, 2070)
Promise ex16350 16 port raid card
10 x 750G wd7500aaks
2 x 150 Raptors (OS)
3 x 1T Fantom drives (External)
creative x-fi platinum
koolance exos-2 water cooler (upgraded fans to silverstone 110CFM)
LG GGC-H20L (blu-ray/HD-dvd) player
1 samsung OEM writemaster
SIIG 3 port firewire 800 card (for the Fantom drives).
I use nero 8 with their media home (it shares all media files with all devices on your network. xbox 360, playstation 3, other computers).
Also have Pdvd (not my favorite).

Drives are all in 2 (5x3) sata drive cages for hot swapping.
Case is a coolermaster stacker 830

I also have the logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse setup. Hope this gives you some ideas.

crabnebula

01-20-08, 12:26 AM

Both GeForce 8200 mGPU and 780G will be killer chipsets for HD HTPC.

One of the things I haven't seen discussed regarding these chipsets is their post processing abilities. For instance, several reviews have shown that the current 2400 Pro doesn't have enough GPU power to apply full post-processing as the 2600 Pro/XT do. So even if both cards fully accelerate the decoding, the image quality is still better with the 2600. Isn't the same thing likely to happen with these new IGPs: full hardware decode but not enough GPU power for post-processing?

Would appreciate any insights as I've been holding off upgrading the HTPC but am not so sure it will really be worth it.

pps88

01-20-08, 12:44 AM

Thanks...but:

1) The client PCs -- what type of hardware do they need?
Graphics cards or can I have the graphics cards on the server and stream to the client?

Tuner Cards --- on the server or the client?

My TVs are 1080p or 1080i

thanks, pps

I have that exact setup. I have the my xbox 360 play normal dvd's and hd-dvds. I am building a htpc to play in the living room all formats. My bedrooms plays off the server(and a gamer to boot). My roomate will only be able to view regular dvd's he has a non-HD tv.

You have to decide are you going to store blu-ray/Hd-dvd also? I can tell you right now, I have 10Terabytes of storage and Blu-ray and HD-DVD take up a ton of room. Anywheres from 15G - 52G is the max I have had. Normal dvd's take up 3G - 7.6G abouts. AS you can see HD movies take up from 2 - 8x a normal dvd. It quickly adds up.

I have a high end server.
Qx9650 w/ Asus maximus formula (got it for 1000$ package deal on ebay).
(OC to 4.6 Ghz)

8G of G.Skill RAM
8800GT 512 (OC to 735, 1825 shader, 1035)
Promise ex16350 16 port raid card
10 x 750G wd7500aaks
2 x 150 Raptors (OS)
3 x 1T Fantom drives (External)
creative x-fi platinum
koolance exos-2 water cooler (upgraded fans to silverstone 110CFM)
LG GGC-H20L (blu-ray/HD-dvd) player
1 samsung OEM writemaster
SIIG 3 port firewire 800 card (for the Fantom drives).
I use nero 8 with their media home (it shares all media files with all devices on your network. xbox 360, playstation 3, other computers).
Also have Pdvd (not my favorite).

Drives are all in 2 (5x3) sata drive cages for hot swapping.
Case is a coolermaster stacker 830

I also have the logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse setup. Hope this gives you some ideas.

renethx

01-20-08, 01:53 AM

pps88

I can't give you a good advice as I don't have enough knowledge on these matters. Maybe somebody corrects me. The following is just an example.

Server + DVR

- Pentium Dual-Core E2160
- Intel DG965WH
- DDR2-800 2GB
- Onboard video
- 16-port SATA RAID controller card (HighPoint or Promise)
- 16 1TB HDDs (WD10EACS)
- AVerTV Combo PCIe TV tuner card (white box) (up to three)
- Windows Vista Home Premium (is Basic enough?)

If you are going to rip and store BD / HD DVD, you will need to add:

- BD / HD DVD optical drive
- AnyDVD HD

You don't need a discrete grahics card. The purpose of a discrete card is accelerating H.264/VC-1/MPEG-2 decoding process and this is necessary only in clients.

Client PC

If you stream 1080p H.264 contents from the server, you will need a fast CPU and possibly a graphics card supporting hw acceleration like "Recommended Systems - Low-End" in my guide. Otherwise a decent PC should be enough.

renethx

01-20-08, 02:27 AM

One of the things I haven't seen discussed regarding these chipsets is their post processing abilities. For instance, several reviews have shown that the current 2400 Pro doesn't have enough GPU power to apply full post-processing as the 2600 Pro/XT do. So even if both cards fully accelerate the decoding, the image quality is still better with the 2600. Isn't the same thing likely to happen with these new IGPs: full hardware decode but not enough GPU power for post-processing?

Would appreciate any insights as I've been holding off upgrading the HTPC but am not so sure it will really be worth it.

Perhaps we shouldn't expect the same post-processing capability as HD 2600 (as NVIDIA/AMD claims IGP is equivalent to 8400/2400). We will know it only after these chipsets are released and somebody test video playback performance extensively. For BD / HD DVD video playback, post-processing (deinterlacing and denoising) quality is irrelevant.

timmimd

01-20-08, 03:06 AM

renethx

01-20-08, 03:18 AM

I need some advice on building my HTPC. Here is the parts list so far:
Intel Q6600 Processor
GGC-H20L LG Blu-ray HD player
Asus P5E-VM for HDMI output or IP35 Pro
I am trying to build it for maximum 1080p output to my new Bravia XBR4. Should I use the the P5E-VM or IP35 Pro and should I add a video card if I am just using this HTPC to play HD and Blu ray DVD's or just use the on board HDMI on the P5E? Or instead of the Q6600 should I buy a new E8400 coming out because of heat issues?
I wouldn't be bothered with Q6600 + P5E-VM HDMI + GMA X3500. I recommend

- Q6600 or E8400 or E8200 or E4600 or E2200 (depending on your budget)
- IP35 Pro or GA-P35-DS4 or GA-P35-DS3L
- Radeon HD 3670 or HD 3650 or HD 2600 XT or HD 2600 Pro

If you are going to play BD / HD DVD without hw acceleration, Q6600 is still the best choice.

timmimd

01-20-08, 05:14 AM

what about a case, heatsink and power supply recommendation?

renethx

01-20-08, 06:15 AM

what about a case, heatsink and power supply recommendation?
Please look at 'Recommended Systems - ATX System' in the guide. You can choose case, HS, PSU from them interchangeabley.

jerome8283

01-20-08, 10:21 AM

Sapphire (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102700) is a safer choice (control the fan with RivaTuner). You can find the 512MB version with +$20 (but 512MB does not affect video playback performance).

BTW HD 3670, a 55 nm replacement of HD 2600 XT will be released on January 23, 2008. It's slightly better in 3D performance (+5%) and temperature (-9℃), but consumes more power (+8W at idle). A detailed review is [First Review] ATI Radeon HD 3670 256MB aka. RV6358 (http://en.expreview.com/?p=178). Once it (and HD 3470/3450) is released, HD 2600/2400 will be phased out.

Thanks renethx. I'm now considering building a new machine. I'm thinking my current config, CPU (Pentium 4 CPU 3.0GHZ 800FSB), 2GB RAM, 350W Power Supply will not be adequate? What do you think?

pps88

01-20-08, 12:53 PM

Renethx,

Thanks.

So basically:

- Tuner cards go in the Server
- Graphics cards go in the clients
- really only needed for decoding streamed info from the Server

I know these are pretty simple questions.

And the software on the server doesn't need to be window 2003 Server?
I'd prefer to just keep windows XP on the server, if possible (and not Vista).

thanks, pps

Smitty2k1

01-20-08, 02:52 PM

renethx

01-20-08, 08:03 PM

Thanks renethx. I'm now considering building a new machine. I'm thinking my current config, CPU (Pentium 4 CPU 3.0GHZ 800FSB), 2GB RAM, 350W Power Supply will not be adequate? What do you think?
I think your system is AGP. Then you'd better buy a new processor, mb, memory, and HD 2600 PCIe rather than buying an HD 2600 AGP. You can use your 350W PSU.

renethx

01-20-08, 08:08 PM

And the software on the server doesn't need to be window 2003 Server?
I'd prefer to just keep windows XP on the server, if possible (and not Vista).
Windows XP 32-bit has a volume size limit 2TB while Vista has no 2TB limit (up to 16 EB = 16 x 1024 TB). That's the reason for having recommeded Vista. It depends on your usage.

jerome8283

01-20-08, 08:46 PM

I think your system is AGP. Then you'd better buy a new processor, mb, memory, and HD 2600 PCIe rather than buying an HD 2600 AGP. You can use your 350W PSU.

Ok I was thinking of going all new. Just a memory board, proc and memory you say? I guess that is just about going new huh?

renethx

01-20-08, 08:59 PM

Ok I was thinking of going all new. Just a memory board, proc and memory you say?
I checked your previous posts. Your system is Dell Dimension 8400, right? Then it supports a PCI Express graphics card and you don't need to upgrade the entire system. What you need is only

- Radeon HD 2600 XT PCI Express card

You even don't need to add another 1GB memory as 1GB is sufficient for Windows XP.

The upgraded system will handle (most of) BD / HD DVD movies with no problem. However it will struggle with 1080p H.264 files as the graphics card's hw acceleration does not work. If you are going to play 1080p H.264 files, then you should consider a new system. For the moment, you may add a new graphics card and see how it works.

crabnebula

01-20-08, 09:04 PM

Perhaps we shouldn't expect the same post-processing capability as HD 2600 (as NVIDIA/AMD claims IGP is equivalent to 8400/2400). We will know it only after these chipsets are released and somebody test video playback performance extensively. For BD / HD DVD video playback, post-processing (deinterlacing and denoising) quality is irrelevant.

Thanks for the info, that seems to validate what I've read about the processing power of those two IGPs (ie equivalent to 2400 / 8400).

However, it still isn't clear to me why/when post processing on HD material could be useful. I thought some HD/Blu-ray movies with poor transfers could in effect benefit from denoising and/or sharpening/detail enhancement? And apart from broadcast recordings, since some of the HD/BD discs are also in 1080i format, isn't proper inverse telecine useful in those rare cases too?

renethx

01-20-08, 09:20 PM

However, it still isn't clear to me why/when post processing on HD material could be useful. I thought some HD/Blu-ray movies with poor transfers could in effect benefit from denoising and/or sharpening/detail enhancement? And apart from broadcast recordings, since some of the HD/BD discs are also in 1080i format, isn't proper inverse telecine useful in those rare cases too?
Yeah, if you need sophisticated postprocessing control, a discrete graphics is the way to go. However NVIDIA and AMD's decision is very reasonable. In most cases simple postprocessing capability is enough and they avoided adding extra hardware and raising production cost. That's good for the majority of users.

jerome8283

01-20-08, 09:20 PM

I checked your previous posts. Your system is Dell Dimension 8400, right? Then it supports a PCI Express graphics card and you don't need to upgrade the entire system. What you need is only

- Radeon HD 2600 XT PCI Express card

You even don't need to add another 1GB memory as 1GB is sufficient for Windows XP.

The upgraded system will handle (most of) BD / HD DVD movies with no problem. However it will struggle with 1080p H.264 files as the graphics card's hw acceleration does not work. If you are going to play 1080p H.264 files, then you should consider a new system. For the moment, you may add a new graphics card and see how it works.

Yes, it's a Dell 8400. My main display is 1080i only. I do have a 1080p LCD in the bedroom however this system will be for the 1080i plasma. Will my current system handle BD/HD DVD?

renethx

01-20-08, 09:48 PM

Yes, it's a Dell 8400. My main display is 1080i only. I do have a 1080p LCD in the bedroom however this system will be for the 1080i plasma. Will my current system handle BD/HD DVD?

Yes.

jerome8283

01-20-08, 10:03 PM

Yes.

Thanks for your help. Now the decision I need to make, wait for the HD 3670 or go for the SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 2600XT 256MB PCI Express.

magalhaes

01-21-08, 03:42 AM

Renethx, first of all, thank you for this major thread

BTW AMD 780G chipset is coming soon that is equipped with UVD. So we don't need a fast processor or a discrete card any longer.

So, what are your expectations about this new chipset?
Do you think its worth to wait and buy:
-mobo w/ AMD780G chipset + X2 (low range)
or gor for it wright now and buy:
-mobo + C2D (medium range) + hd2600xt

Thanks in advance and keep up the good work

renethx

01-21-08, 04:08 AM

So, what are your expectations about this new chipset?
Do you think its worth to wait and buy:
-mobo w/ AMD780G chipset + X2 (low range)
or gor for it wright now and buy:
-mobo + C2D (medium range) + hd2600xt
The point of the new chipsets is that you can build a BD / HD DVD playback machine at a low cost (apart from a BD / HD DVD optical drive that is still too pricey). Performancewise a discrete card will be better, in particular in postprocessing capability (and 3D performance). Unless your budget is tight, you don't have to wait for the new chipset.

magalhaes

01-21-08, 04:18 AM

The point of the new chipsets is that you can build a BD / HD DVD playback machine at a low cost (apart from a BD / HD DVD optical drive that is still too pricey). Performancewise a discrete card will be better, in particular in postprocessing capability (and 3D performance). Unless your budget is tight, you don't have to wait for the new chipset.

Thanks again Renethx, I´ll keep working on my configuration then

rcliff

01-21-08, 10:26 AM

Antec True430 is a bit old; it comes with a 20-pin ATX cable (24 pin is the current standard) and no 6-pin PCI Express cable. If you go with HD 3850, you will need a new PSU. If you go with HD 2600 XT, True430 is OK (you can use 20-pin for a 24-pin mb).I also ran into this issue. I'm have an Antec True480 with a 20-pin connector and my Asus P5E-VM HDMI mobo calls for a 24-pin connector. The Asus manual says it requires a 24-pin connector but I built the machine and preliminarily everything appears to be working. I just have to install the OS, tidy up the wires and close it up. My Sapphire 2600XT does not have a PCI-e power supply connector so that's not an issue. What are the extra pin on the ATX 24-pin connector needed for? Any downside in using my 20-pin PSU? Thanks

leftheaded

01-21-08, 02:46 PM

just came over here to look at the recommended systems (like i periodically do) to see if the E8400 was on the list, and sure enough renethx already has it on the list.

awesome job with this thread!!

also, I think the xfx mb-n680-ish9 mobo is pretty hard to find for $200 since the 780i release. The only ones I can find online are $280-300, and that's more expensive than the 780i counterpart.

Danger30Q

01-21-08, 04:01 PM

First of all, fantastic thread! I have never seen more amounts of information and better organization ever - simply amazing.

I have a small HTPC setup currently that is running Windows Home Server. Everything is up and running perfectly but I think it's kind of a waste to only use it for WHS. It sits next to my LCD TV and so I hope to add a video card that allows me to watch downloaded TV shows and movies in just about all formats imagineable. I don't own any Blue Ray or HD DVDs and don't plan to anytime soon. I do have a large collection of normal DVDs that I would play from this pseudo HTPC/WHS with the DVD drive.

Here is some starting info:

I will connect and control the HTPC via Remote Access from my main desktop.

AMD X2 3600+, 2x1gb DDR2-1000, DVD writer, but NO graphics card and no audio card

I plan to connect to the TV with an HDMI cable. I have onboard audio and don't care that much for superb audio since I'm only using my TV speakers.

I have narrowed down my video card choices to either the Radeon 2400 or 2600. I read a few reviews that stated the 2600 gave better overall image quality so I'm leaning toward the 2600 since they aren't that much more expensive than the 2400 line. I also want to use these card's ability to pull audio through the PCI-Express so I don't need to buy a separate sound card.

So basically I'm looking for conformation on:

1) I should be OK using the 2400/2600 to play downloaded videos, TV shows, and DVDs on disc?

2) My X2 3600+ low speed will not hinder my ability to play videos since the 2400/2600 will take care of that job nicely

3) I shouldn't have any issues with Catalyst drivers even though I'm using Windows Home Server

4) The 2400/2600 will have no issues pulling the audio from my onboard sound card and sending it to the TV

I'd greatly appreciate your help and suggestions. Again, fantastic thread!

pantala

01-21-08, 06:20 PM

renethx

01-21-08, 07:35 PM

What are the extra pin on the ATX 24-pin connector needed for? Any downside in using my 20-pin PSU? Thanks
The extra 4 pin is to support 75 watt PCI Express requirements. I haven't seen any downside with 8500 GT and 2600 Pro/XT.

renethx

01-21-08, 07:47 PM

Danger30Q

Windows Home Sever is basically Windows Server 2003. ATI driver for Windows XP may work (there is no driver for Server products). If the driver works, then your system will be fine.

renethx

01-21-08, 07:52 PM

Has anybody built a PC using the recommended Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 board with the Zerotherm BTF95 cooler? In some images I have found of the board, there is a large heatsink on the back of the board that looks like it would prevent the Zerotherm's backplate from installing correctly.

In other images of the board (namely pictures from newegg), there is not a heatsink on the back.

This possibly is a revision issue, as it looks like the images with the back heatsink are from rev 1.0 and the Newegg one is rev 2.0.

Can anybody confirm?

Perhaps you are talking about DS4 rev. 1.0. The current rev. 2.0 has no heatsink on the back side and there is no problem in installing most retail coolers.

If you are going to use rev. 1.0 and a cooler of non-push-pin type, then you need to remove that large heatsink first.

tastruk

01-23-08, 10:10 AM

Wanted to make sure...

Specs:
Motherboard: Asus P5E-VM HDMI
CPU: Intel Dual Core E2200
Memory: OCZ 2GB Dual Channel

Gonna use HDMI port.

Wonder is this possible to watching Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?

Thanks!

archibael

01-23-08, 11:16 AM

E2200 is a little low-end to run Blu-ray or HD-DVD on that motherboard without overclocking; you'll want 2.4GHz or greater. 2.67GHz would be best.

tastruk

01-23-08, 11:53 AM

I could do overclock if necessary which meaning I gotta get a better heatsink unlike what I have is intel heatsink stock right?

Thanks!

jerome8283

01-23-08, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by renethx
Sapphire is a safer choice (control the fan with RivaTuner). You can find the 512MB version with +$20 (but 512MB does not affect video playback performance).

BTW HD 3670, a 55 nm replacement of HD 2600 XT will be released on January 23, 2008. It's slightly better in 3D performance (+5%) and temperature (-9℃), but consumes more power (+8W at idle). A detailed review is [First Review] ATI Radeon HD 3670 256MB aka. RV6358. Once it (and HD 3470/3450) is released, HD 2600/2400 will be phased out.

Thanks renethx. I'm now considering building a new machine. I'm thinking my current config, CPU (Pentium 4 CPU 3.0GHZ 800FSB), 2GB RAM, 350W Power Supply will not be adequate? What do you think?

Hey renethx, I'm a little confused. Which card would be ideal for me? I'm not a gamer; I would like to have the ability to playback Blu-ray/HDVD at up to 1080p. I'm probably confusing myself but I'm reading good things about the 3850 as well. What's the difference between the 3850, 3670 and 2600XT with regard to HD playback?

renethx

01-23-08, 07:26 PM

I could do overclock if necessary which meaning I gotta get a better heatsink unlike what I have is intel heatsink stock right?

Check CPU temperature with ASUS PC Probe. If it's over 60°C at load (safe up to 73.3°C (http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLA8X)), you should buy a better cooler.

renethx

01-23-08, 07:30 PM

Hey renethx, I'm a little confused. Which card would be ideal for me? I'm not a gamer; I would like to have the ability to playback Blu-ray/HDVD at up to 1080p. I'm probably confusing myself but I'm reading good things about the 3850 as well. What's the difference between the 3850, 3670 and 2600XT with regard to HD playback?

2600XT 256MB is good for your purpose. 3670 is not released yet. 3850 is for gamers.

BenSanford

01-23-08, 07:51 PM

I built up my HTPC around recommended components a couple of months ago. Thanks so much for the recommendations! I recently hooked it up to a power meter, and am pleasantly surprised at the relatively low power consumption. :)

Hardware Components I used:
Antec P182B case with Corsair HX520W PSU
Abit IP35 Pro MB with Intel E6750 CPU & 4 GB of DDR2-800 RAM
Gigabyte silent 8600GTS video
4 WD 1 TB drives in RAID 5 configuration for DVR and another 500 GB for OS
Samsung DVD drive, 4 case fans in addition to the CPU fan, etc.

Apparently general internet and HTPC usage just doesn't stress these components because idle power usage (measured at the input to the PSU) is around 85 watts, and it runs about 120 watts when playing back video, and up to around 160 watts when running a CPU & RAM stress test. This is with stock voltages and a mild OC. The WD green-power HD's really do live up to their reputation as far as low noise & low power usage. Obviously with the relatively large case and low power, heat is not a problem with this build.

I'm planning on building HTPC in a much smaller case, where heat may be a concern and I prefer to use one of the new Intel processors and an integrated graphics Motherboard that uses low power and is still suitable for HTPC usage with a High definition DVD drive (when prices drop). Do you have any idea about power consumption of the upcoming G45 chipsets compared to the G35 and the other new integrated graphic MB's

Ben

renethx

01-23-08, 08:10 PM

G35: 90 nm, 28W TDP (compare it with G33 14.5W and GeForce 7100 17W)

G45: 65 nm, that usually means a lower TDP.

BTW TDP of P35 is 16W, 8600 GTS consumes 21W at idle.

Twoboxer

01-23-08, 09:36 PM

Just finished assembling and early testing of the system below. Had a large number of problems getting the Asus mobo drivers and BIOS update (from 301 to 405) installed (I'd advise NOT using the InstALL utility - just install the drivers one at a time.)

Anyhow, 2 things worth noting:

1) CoreTemp showed my idle temperature for the E8400/Scythe Ninja Mini/Artic 5 was 42 degrees, and it ran low-60s after 45 min @ 100% CPU open-case on my desktop. After adding the Scythe's fan, setting the case fans to medium, and putting the cover on, the peak temp was 57 degrees after the same test. This is higher than I would have guessed, and may indicate I should re-seat the heatsink.

2) The "gigabit" controller won't connect at higher than 100Mbit. I have two other machines that will connect to my network at 1G using the same wire, so the issue is somewhere in the new machine. There's a smattering of complaints about this issue on the Asus boards, but no resolution.

No TV Out yet - but for all I know I connected red to green somewhere lol.

HTPC Build:
Antec Fusion 430
Asus P5E-VM HDMI
Intel E8400
Scythe Ninja Mini
Kingston 2 x 1G
WD7500AAKS 750GB
Old DVD Burner - Temp
Sapphire 2600XT
Hauppage 1800 MCE Kit
Logitech EX110 Wireless KB + Mouse
Vista Ultimate

magalhaes

01-24-08, 05:55 AM

boydn1

01-24-08, 06:03 AM

Looking to build my first HTPC and after MUCH reading (Many thanks renethx) picked the Mid range ATX system. Wanted to listen to music and use as a DVD recorder from a Charter hi def set top box.
Looking for solutions for missing parts.
Can't find ATI Radeon HD 3650. What DVD drive/burner and TV card would be recomended? Output for now is to a Sony KV-36HS20 (hi def tube).
Thanks Much!

renethx

01-24-08, 07:51 AM

Hi
Im looking for a mATX motherboard (Intel or AMD) to use on my HTPC.
I`ve looked at the guide and I have a few questions to ask (nooobb...):

1- Difference between G33 and G35?
2- The mobo`s mentioned are displayed by ranking?
3- Why theres only one mobo (Gigabyte) on AMD recommendations, is it way better than the others?
4- All of this mATX mobos have integrated graphics? If so, is that standard?Why? Im pretending to use a graphics card so thats not a priority to me.

Sorry for my novice questions
Regards

1. The main difference is integrated graphics, GMA 3100 vs. GMA X3500. See this post.

2. No. The order is almost arbitrary.

3. I picked up one of the best systems in each category and most of them happened to be the Intel platform (the Intel platform is better than AMD right now).

4. Almost every mATX mb has graphics integrated. Please read this thead Why do all uATX boards have integrated graphics? (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=29&threadid=2087080).

renethx

01-24-08, 08:03 AM

Can't find ATI Radeon HD 3650. What DVD drive/burner and TV card would be recomended? Output for now is to a Sony KV-36HS20 (hi def tube).
Thanks Much!
Several manufacturers are releasing HD 3650 soon.

MSI, Sapphire, PowerColor: late January
ASUS: early February

If you can't wait, buy Sapphire HD 2600 Pro or XT 256MB.

DVD burner: Samsung SH-S203B, for example.

TV tuner: AverTV Combo PCIe, for example.

8IronBob

01-24-08, 09:26 AM

Well, my finalized configuration is this, both either built already, or soon to add on:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6750
Foxconn P35A-S P35 ATX Mobo
Corsair HX620W 620W Modular PSU
Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 2GB (2 x 1GB)
hec/Compucase IC8290 ATX Case w/ 2 Zalman ZM-F3 120mm fans (Chicago A6 Series)
Seagate SATA/300 500GB SATA HDD w/ Win XP Pro SP2C 32-bit
LG 18x DVD Burner w/ Lightscribe
Samsung Floppy Drive
8800GT 512MB Superclocked eVGA
Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1
Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1800 MCE Kit
Western Digital Caviar SE16 500GB SATA w/ Win Vista Home Premium
(still deciding on either 32-bit or 64-bit at this point)
May add another stick of the Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 to balance out the two OSes.

Kinda nice for a dual-use PC, Vista for HTPC, and XP for gaming.

EDIT (@12:30 EST): Looks like I may go Vista Ultimate x32 on that second hard drive... Just been advised.
On top of that, I may just use the 2GB DDR2-800, since that's the sweet spot for 32-bit OSes. I'll just build a new rig when Windows 7 is released, probably with Nehalem technology.

genro

01-24-08, 12:36 PM

If I'm doing a build with an e8400, is it worth going for a mini ninja (using an antec nsk2480 case) over the stock cooler? I don't necessarily need to overclock (though to 3.6-3.8 would be nice), just don't want something that I can hear from more than 5 ft away.

Thanks

smithb39

01-24-08, 12:54 PM

I need help picking out a video card. My situation, I will be building a HTPC in the next year but want to wait for the motherboards with onboard video that support HDCP, hw acceleration, and HDMI. While waiting I got a deal on a 4U case so I thought I would build up something cheap.

What I have:
Case: 4U Rack mount case - hec RA455A00 4U Server Case
Motherboard: Asus A7N8X E-Deluxe
Processor: AMD AthlonXP 2500+ (1.83 GHz) (Plan some moderate overclocking)
RAM: 1GB RAM
DVD Burner

Plan to buy:
HD: WD800JD 80GB for OS. (I have a second PC that will be used to store data)
Power Supply: CORSAIR CMPSU-520HX

At first I was thinking of getting something cheap all it would need to do is support playing DVDs, but forgot about HD recording, I'm not looking to play HD-DVD or BR but would like to add a capture card and record over the air HD and play it back. It needs to be an AGP 4x/8x 1.5V video card because of the motherboard. I plan to reuse everything but the motherboard, processor, RAM, and video card for the next build.

Thanks,
Brent

netbuddy

01-24-08, 08:40 PM

renethx

01-24-08, 09:02 PM

renethx

01-24-08, 09:21 PM

At first I was thinking of getting something cheap all it would need to do is support playing DVDs, but forgot about HD recording, I'm not looking to play HD-DVD or BR but would like to add a capture card and record over the air HD and play it back. It needs to be an AGP 4x/8x 1.5V video card because of the motherboard. I plan to reuse everything but the motherboard, processor, RAM, and video card for the next build.
If you plan on reusing it, then perhaps it needs to be HDCP-compliant. Radeon HD 2600 AGP (and X1950) seems to be the only AGP HDCP card (afaik the driver is not ready, though). Otherwise GeForce 7xxx or Radeon X1xxx is enough.

Mascot

01-25-08, 02:09 AM

Just read some awesome reviews and tests on the new simple, low budget graphic cards from ATI, mainly the HD3450. Less than 5% average CPU utilisation on 1080p h264 blu-ray playback! Amazing... and this with a AMD Athlon X2 4000+ CPU!!

Now, I'm waiting to see how the integrated graphics in AMD 780g will do. For my (no gaming at all) HTPC I will go with the easy-to-cool-passive AMD Athlon X2 BE-2XXX CPU's.

Motherboard M3A78-EMH HDMI
2x1 ggb PC6400/800 DDR2 RAM
AMD Athlon BE-2XX0 CPU
Antec NSK2480 or Antec Fusion case
Thermaltake passive cooler for CPU and 2x120 mm Noctua S12 fans
LG combodrive
MCE remote

Value for money HDDVD/Blueray 1080p playback

Now, just the annoying wait for that new motherboard... anyone got any dates. Also, one with Realtek 889 would be nice, but I guess you can't ask for everything can you...?

renethx

01-25-08, 07:00 AM

Would I want to do one of your low end systems and just beef up the CPU since it will mostly be processor based work? if so what would you reccomend?

I parted out a similar system and this is what I came up with

GIGABYTE GA-73PVM-S2H motherboard
a 667 2gb set of ram
an intel E4500.

HDs, PSU and case I already have.

Would the above configuration cut it or would I want to beef up the processor some more? It's going to be in an ATX case so I don't know if MicroATX is super important but I like the DVI/HDMI out. I'd also like to stay intel if possible too. If you had any other reccomendations for motherboards I'd love to hear about it. :)
I tested the GeForce 7100 mb only with a discrete video card. Tonight I will test onboard video with several 1080p files and let you know the result (onboard video is definitely not for BD / HD DVD, that's the reason for my quick giving up onboard video).

A G33 or G35 mb should be good for 1080p files with onboard video and E4500. Yeah, only three mbs have DVI and/or HDMI: GA-G33M-S2H, DG33TL, P5E-VM HDMI, and all of them are overpriced (> $110).

netbuddy

01-25-08, 11:50 AM

I tested the GeForce 7100 mb only with a discrete video card. Tonight I will test onboard video with several 1080p files and let you know the result (onboard video is definitely not for BD / HD DVD, that's the reason for my quick giving up onboard video).

A G33 or G35 mb should be good for 1080p files with onboard video and E4500. Yeah, only three mbs have DVI and/or HDMI: GA-G33M-S2H, DG33TL, P5E-VM HDMI, and all of them are overpriced (> $110).

Awesome man, thanks for checking that out for me!
I'm eagerly awaiting the results :)

8IronBob

01-25-08, 12:46 PM

I'm wondering if the future of HTPCs would actually live within Vista Ultimate x64, tho, as opposed to Home Premium x32. I mean, if one should upgrade from MCE 2005 to Vista, he/she may as well go all out, imho. However, I'm not too sure if a reasonably high-mid config like mine would limit me from doing so. What are your thoughts about 64-bit OSes with an HTPC? Think it's worth the risk to go full-blown on any given HTPC configuration?

emp3r0r

01-25-08, 05:31 PM

My experience with x64 vista and media playback has been a flop. I have an 8600GTS and a E4300 overclocked to 2.4ghz on a ASRock4Core board. All the drivers seem fine. My problem is that when trying to play anything in VMC, x64 WMP, x64 MPC HC that the need for 64bit filters cause playback to be ultra slow. I must use 32bit WMP or MPC to get my 720p H264 MKV and 1080p EVO files to playback smoothly.

IMHO, x64 for media playback is a hassle because of the lack of decent 64bit filters (unless you need access to more than 3gigs of ram).

Edit: also note that there is no Haali Media Splitter for 64bit yet

jerome8283

01-25-08, 08:37 PM

Does the DVI to HDMI adapter that comes with the Radeon HD 2600XT require a HDMI 1.3 compatible device to work?

renethx

01-25-08, 09:00 PM

renethx

01-25-08, 09:20 PM

Does the DVI to HDMI adapter that comes with the Radeon HD 2600XT require a HDMI 1.3 compatible device to work?
No, it also works with the previous versions of HDMI devices. But first of all HD 2600 XT or any other PC device does not support HDMI 1.3.

jerome8283

01-25-08, 09:28 PM

No, it also works with the previous versions of HDMI devices. But first of all HD 2600 XT or any other PC device does not support HDMI 1.3.

Thanks for the clarification renethx.

crabnebula

01-25-08, 09:29 PM

Now, I'm waiting to see how the integrated graphics in AMD 780g will do.

Now, just the annoying wait for that new motherboard... anyone got any dates.

They are now released in China but reports say they won't be available in North America before March. In the same boat as you.

bmcclory

01-26-08, 09:56 AM

First, thank you renethx for this outstanding guide. As a newcomer to this hobby, I wish it had been the #1 search result on Google -- that would have spared me many frustrating hours of research!

Now, onto the question! One of the first comments on this thread was:

One thing your guide doesn't make quite clear enough (IMHO) is that graphics cards do not assist (much) in hardware acceleration of stored x.264 codec video files, only with HD-DVD or Blueray discs. That's a really important point for most of us thinking of the media server solution.

Could anyone elaborate on this further? I'm planning an HD HTPC based on the upcoming Hauppauge HD PVR product, so obviously 1080p x.264 playback from HDD will be critical for me. I was hoping that if I get one of the new motherboards with an IGP that does hardware-based decoding, I'd be able to get by with a less-powerful CPU (to save cost and lower energy consumption.) Not true?

NathanC

01-26-08, 12:00 PM

This thread is massive, but if i could get some opinions on a potential build i would be very grateful.

- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
- MSI RX2600XT-T2D512EZ Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDMI HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Silent Heat Pipe Video Card - Retail
- XCLIO GOODPOWER 500W ATX 500W Power Supply - Retail
- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor Model BX80562Q6600 - Retail
- A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ADQVE1A16K - Retail (x2)
- Western Digital Caviar SE WD5000AAJS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
- D-Link DWL-G550 PCI High-Powered Wireless Desktop Adapter - Retail
- Origen AE S21T

Assuming all of that will work together, and that i can find an S21T(might have to go for the CW03) then i think my only other choices are a Blu-Ray drive and OS. Why are there so many Vista choices? Does it matter for HTPC use? I'll be using MediaPortal as my front end hopefully. Also i'm assuming i can use the DVI->VGA adapter that comes with the video card to connect it to the touchscreen's VGA in. Sorry for all the questions, but this will be my first time building a computer from the ground up and i want to make sure it's a rewarding experience. Thanks.

renethx

01-26-08, 07:54 PM

Could anyone elaborate on this further? I'm planning an HD HTPC based on the upcoming Hauppauge HD PVR product, so obviously 1080p x.264 playback from HDD will be critical for me. I was hoping that if I get one of the new motherboards with an IGP that does hardware-based decoding, I'd be able to get by with a less-powerful CPU (to save cost and lower energy consumption.) Not true?
May not true, unfortunately. It may also depend on how HD PVR encodes. Please read the thread x264 Encoding Options for Hardware Compatibility & DXVA.

renethx

01-26-08, 08:05 PM

Does it matter for HTPC use? I'll be using MediaPortal as my front end hopefully.
Here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/editions/choose.mspx) is a quick comparison chart. If you are thinking of Home Basic, perhaps Home Premium (32-bit) is a safer choice.

pps88

01-27-08, 01:38 AM

renethx

01-27-08, 02:26 AM

Setup: Server + client setup.

On the client side, if all that is going to happen on the client side is streaming video or playing it from a Hard drive from Server (HD 1080p,etc) [i.e not other games, dvd ripping,etc], why need a special graphics card (i.e. more $$$) and and instead just use a powerful CPU on the client to do all the decoding,etc?

If that is the case, any recommendations on an Intel motherboard+some integrated graphics (with HDMI output and/or component output)?

Would an E8400 meet the CPU requirements? or do I need to go Quad?

thanks, pps
If you are keeping SageTV HD Extender in mind, I can't say about it as I have never used it.

Here is the CPU usage when playing back a BD movie (Pirates of Caribbean 3) from a networked folder with Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (2.2GHz) and Media Player Classic (and GeForce 8500 GT; hardware acceleration does not work of course; mb is GA-P35-DS4).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=100492

Playback is almost stutter-free, but not perfect. You'd better get a CPU of 2.66GHz or higher (or overclock a lower CPU).

pps88

01-27-08, 05:13 AM

You've convinced me to create a client HTPC (as opposed to an HD Extender).

And that I don't need a specialized graphics card --- just an E6750 or E8400 OC to 3.6Mhz will do just fine for any HD or Blueray playback (over networked folder) or

So now, any suggestions on an inexpensive Intel motherboard with onboard DVI / HDMI output?

Motherboard requirements:
- Takes Intel E8400
- 2 Sata
- Overclocking capability
- Onboard GigE
- DVI/HDMI output

That's it!

I'm having trouble finding one.....

osieke

01-27-08, 07:15 AM

Hi all,

I've been lurking on these forums for quite some time now because of my plans to build a new pc. I've been using XBMC to view downloaded content on my television, but unfortunately, the xbox is not quite up to the job of displaying HD content, so I would like to move up on the ladder. :)

Based on the recommended systems on this board and recommended components over @ silentpcreview, I've come to the main components listed below. As you will see, I still have some decisions to make and I'm hoping some of you can help me with that.

Purpose of this build: HTPC/Workstation/Gaming (COD4)
Major requirement: SILENCE!
HTPC requirements: HD content, doesn't have to include HD-DVD/BluRay yet, as I'm waiting for more affordable combo drives with less playback issues

Case: Antec Solo (bought already)
Case fans: Nexus Real Silent 120mm (rear) + Nexus Real Silent 92mm (front)
Power supply: Corsair 520HX or 550VX or 450VX
Processor: Intel E8400
Cooler: Scythe Ninja or Thermalright Ultra-120 (if stock cooler is too noisy)
Motherboard:

Abit IP 35 Pro or
Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P (or EP variant) or
Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4 (or EP variant) or
Intel DP35DP

Memory: Corsair TWIN2X 6400C4 DDR2, 2048MB CL4, Kit w/two 1GB Dimm's, E.P.P Technology
Graphics: Sapphire HD 3850 512MB Ultimate Edition
Hard drive: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB SATA2 16MB 7200RPM
Wireless network adapter: ???
Optical drive: ???

Concerning power supply: I would love a modular PSU, but I'm also taking the energy consumption into consideration. However, from reading some of the forums, I've got the impression that the VX-series generates more noise.

Concerning cooler: don't know if the E8400 needs this much cooling power. Choice of cooler also depends on whether it fits on the motherboard and in the case. (read that the Thermalright may be a little too big for the Solo). If stock cooler is silent enough, I will stick to that.

Concerning motherboard: would like firewire support and optical audio out (receiver is not HDMI capable). Main concern is compatibility issues with PSU, memory, ... The Abit seems like a solid board, but when reading several support forums (Corsair, Abit), it seems to be suffering from a lot of compatibility issues. Had some bad experiences with Gigabyte on a previous build a couple of years ago.

Concerning wireless network: I currently have a US Robotics Turbo Pci adapter, but as this product is discontinued, no Vista drivers are available. The wireless netword card is needed to connect to a USR Turbo Router downstairs (internet connection).

Optical drive: dvd burner which should be silent...maybe thinking of Plextor, but open for suggestions. I currently own a Sony DRU-510a and might decide to keep that for the time being, as I'm not really planning on playing dvd discs from the htpc.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope some of you may make some helpful suggestions!

Cheers,
Joris

bmcclory

01-27-08, 09:05 AM

May not true, unfortunately. It may also depend on how HD PVR encodes. Please read the thread x264 Encoding Options for Hardware Compatibility & DXVA.

Thanks for the reply! Although the technical details of that DXVA thread are beyond me, I think I understand the main idea: The x.264 files need to be encoded in exactly the right format (profile 4.1 for HD, 3.1 for SD), or else the GPU-decoder will not be able to assist with the decode and playback will rely entirely on CPU.

I'm still optimistic that the Hauppauge HD PVR will encode to the correct x.264 profile for DXVA acceleration. From what I've read, the device will ship with software for creating/burning AVCHD (Blu-Ray format). That's a good sign, right? If it encodes content that is playable in a standalone Blu-Ray DVD player (as Hauppauge claims), then you'd think that it would play nice with DXVA too...

Here is the CPU usage when playing back a BD movie (Pirates of Caribbean 3) from a networked folder with Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (2.2GHz) and Media Player Classic (and GeForce 8500 GT; hardware acceleration does not work of course; mb is GA-P35-DS4).

Playback is almost stutter-free, but not perfect. You'd better get a CPU of 2.66GHz or higher (or overclock a lower CPU).

Forgive my ignorance, but why does hardware acceleration not work for network playback? Is this again related to the encoding format of the source file, or is there some other factor?

Also, maybe I'm being irrational, but I'm not excited about relying entirely on the CPU for HD playback. It may work with a fast enough processor, but it wouldn't leave much headroom for background tasks or running multiple extenders, not to mention the added cost & power consumption of a 3.0ghz CPU. I'm really hoping to offload a lot of the decoding work to the GPU! Otherwise, what's the point of having a discrete graphics card in a dedicated HTPC if it doesn't help at all?

pps88

01-27-08, 01:35 PM

bmcclory

01-27-08, 01:56 PM

In terms of hardware acceleration with a discrete graphics card --- I'm trying to avoid the cost of a graphics card - usually about $100, if the CPU will do the job fine. An E8400 is about $200 (I can get it at Intel discount of $100). E2200 is about $100. The E8400 OC'd would easily do it, based on renethx post above).

But I will get ultimate flexability with a CPU, software based solution. As for power consumption:

E8400 < E2200 + Graphics card ???

[and if I decide in the future to do other things on my HTPC, I have a powerful processor already there]

I am trying to build the cheapest CLIENT HTPC that will handle 1080p streaming (or from a mounted server disk), since I will have about 5 of them in my home :)

These are my current thoughts, and certainly I am looking for people's opinions on this and if any of the logic holds! Please help!
Q: will I get better quality of picture with a SW based solution?

pps

I've been staking my hopes on the upcoming mobo chipsets that have integrated graphics which include HD decoding on the GPU. IF they work as-advertised, that would be the best of all worlds: no need for a discrete graphics card, and I could also pair it with a more modest (less expensive) CPU.

Of course, that are a lot of unknowns at this point. We don't know if the IGPs will be any good (compared to a discrete graphics card). And we don't know if the hardware encoders will even use a profile that the GPU-decoder will be able to handle. But IF it works, it would probably be the cheapest and most energy-effecient HD HTPC solution available. That's the hope, anyway.

I understand there are side-benefits to having a more powerful CPU -- e.g. faster transcoding, and more flexibility if you ever decide to use your HTPC for another purpose. But or strictly HD video capture/playback, I'd rather spend the extra $$ on other things, such as feeding my storage addiction :)

liquiddvds

01-27-08, 02:54 PM

Hi,
First off I want to thank Renethhx for taking the time to compile this information.I have ordered all of the following parts and will attempt my first build soon.Since I am new to this I was hoping to get some opinions on what I have ordered just to make sure everything will work together.Iff you see any problems please let me know before I strat putting together.I also wanted to show an accurate price for a mid-high build for those also just starting.
This will be used with my Sony 52" XBR2,Cable box w/firewire(hopefully it will work),if not I will wait for the new HD PVR coming out.Since I already have HD-DVD/Blu Ray Players I choose to wait to get drive until later.
Again thanks for your help and I will be sure to post results and pics when I start and finish.:)

2x Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD7500AAKS 750GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (1.5 TB total)

bluegears b-Enspirer 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface

SILVERSTONE Black Aluminum front panel, 0.8 mm SECC body SST-LC17-B ATX Media Center / HTPC Case

Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound

SABRENT CRW-UINB 52-in-1 USB 2.0 Internal Card Reader w/ USB 2.0 Port supports SDHC/VISTA

ZEROtherm BTF90 92mm Silent UFO CPU Cooler

GIGABYTE GV-NX85T256H GeForce 8500GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP

2X CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (4 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

Antec earthwatts EA500 ATX12V v2.0 500W Power Supply

SAMSUNG Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe

ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor

MICROSOFT Windows vista 32bit home premium 1pk DVD

Total Parts Cost-
$300
$100
$130
$ 6
$ 13
$ 41
$ 68
$ 69
$ 72
$ 70
$ 32
$165
$200
$100
-----------------------------------------------
= $1366

- Shipping Costs-
$5
$10
$11
--------------------------------------
= $26.00

+ Mail In Rebates-
$10 Zerotherm Cpu Cooler
$40 Corsair Ram (1) Newegg
$43 Corsair Ram (2) ClubIT
$30 Antec PSU
$25 Abit MOBO
-------------------------------
= $148

Total Build Cost $1244

pps88

01-27-08, 03:18 PM

Yes, I am hoping for the upcoming mobo chipsets that have integrated graphics to include the HD decoding on the GPU.....that would be the best of both worlds, and the cheapest....it's really a question of patience....PPS :)

Right now, the cost of a client doing 1080p streaming is about (no deals):

HDD - 320 gb $70
Case - $100
Powersupply - $50
Motherboard - $100
Memory 2 GB - $50
Windows - $100
Graphics card - $100
DVD - $30 [everything is ripped at the server, but hey, still want to put that rented DVD right away in the unit beside the TV without ripping).
CPU - $100 for low end E2200.

So we are at $700 and maybe if you look out for deals down to-- $500

This is definitely NOT cheap on a per client basis!

Combined mobo+IGP -- hopefully that will shave $70-100 off the cost.

pps

I've been staking my hopes on the upcoming mobo chipsets that have integrated graphics which include HD decoding on the GPU. IF they work as-advertised, that would be the best of all worlds: no need for a discrete graphics card, and I could also pair it with a more modest (less expensive) CPU.

Of course, that are a lot of unknowns at this point. We don't know if the IGPs will be any good (compared to a discrete graphics card). And we don't know if the hardware encoders will even use a profile that the GPU-decoder will be able to handle. But IF it works, it would probably be the cheapest and most energy-effecient HD HTPC solution available. That's the hope, anyway.

I understand there are side-benefits to having a more powerful CPU -- e.g. faster transcoding, and more flexibility if you ever decide to use your HTPC for another purpose. But or strictly HD video capture/playback, I'd rather spend the extra $$ on other things, such as feeding my storage addiction :)

jerome8283

01-27-08, 09:12 PM

renethx,

I'm interested in the two configs below that you posted but I have a few questions..

Config 1
CPU: Core 2 Duo E4600 2.4GHz Socket 775, $142.
CPU Cooler: ZEROtherm BTF90, $30 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R Intel P35 chipset ATX, $130. An alternative is abit IP35 (supports IEEE 1394), $130.
Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit, $50 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 3650 (any brand), $99. An alternative is PNY Verto 8600 GT 256MB PCIe VCG8600GXPB, $114.
HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA, $106.
PSU: Antec NeoHE 430, $70.
Case: SilverStone Lascala SST-LC20B-M, $190.

Config 2
CPU: Core 2 Duo E4600 2.4GHz Socket 775, $142.
CPU Cooler: Scythe NINJA MINI, $35.
Motherboard: ASUS P5K-VM Intel G33 chipset microATX, $120.
Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit, $50 (after rebate at Newegg.com).
Graphics Card: PNY Verto 8600 GT 256MB PCIe VCG8600GXPB, $114. An alternative is ATI Radeon HD 3650 (any brand), $99.
HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA, $106.
PSU: Antec EarthWatts EA 430 (included in the case), $0.
Case: Antec Fusion Black 430, $150.

>What is your preference of the two mobos, ASUS P5K-VM and GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R?

>I like the SilverStone Lascala SST-LC20B-M case because I feel it provides me more growth options. Could I do config 2 with the SilverStone Lascala SST-LC20B-M case and Antec NeoHE 430 PSU?

>Could I do either config with a 2600XT?

>What does the 3650 offer that the 2600XT does not? Which is best for BD/HD DVD playback?

>Which OS would be best for these configs, XP or Vista?

Thank you

David O

01-27-08, 09:25 PM

Right now, the cost of a client doing 1080p streaming is about (no deals):

HDD - 320 gb $70
Case - $100
Powersupply - $50
Motherboard - $100
Memory 2 GB - $50
Windows - $100
Graphics card - $100
DVD - $30 [everything is ripped at the server, but hey, still want to put that rented DVD right away in the unit beside the TV without ripping).
CPU - $100 for low end E2200.
Hmmm, this is not my understanding from this thread. :confused:

To stream 1080p MKV files (ie. from the server) you will need ~3Ghz CPU, the graphics card is no help. So save yourself $100 and spend it on the CPU.

I am thinking of an Asus P5-VM HDMI motherboard and an E6600 Dual core for the client. An Asus P5-V HDMI and Q6600 Quad-core at the server. (I will be streaming video from the server to multiple TVs through a whole-house component video switcher, plus ripping and encoding etc. The client is for the home cinema.)

renethx

01-28-08, 10:36 AM

Hey renethx, your guide is awesome. I had a couple questions about your Low end Systems.

I want to have an HTPC that can play back any 1080p file I throw at it (h264, x264, wmv, wacky mkv files etc.)

I already have a BLU-RAY and HD-DVD player, so I dont need that capability.

Would I want to do one of your low end systems and just beef up the CPU since it will mostly be processor based work? if so what would you reccomend?

I parted out a similar system and this is what I came up with

GIGABYTE GA-73PVM-S2H motherboard
a 667 2gb set of ram
an intel E4500.

HDs, PSU and case I already have.

Would the above configuration cut it or would I want to beef up the processor some more? It's going to be in an ATX case so I don't know if MicroATX is super important but I like the DVI/HDMI out. I'd also like to stay intel if possible too. If you had any other reccomendations for motherboards I'd love to hear about it. :)

Thanks!

Here is a typical CPU usage when playing 1080p mkv files with the following system:

- Pentium Dual-Core E2200 2.2GHz
- eVGA GeForce 7150/630i mb
- onboard video
- Media Player Classic (the CCCP version)
- Vista 32-bit.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=100596

Playback is usually stutter-free. You can overclock the CPU if necessary. E4600 (multiplier x12) may be a better choice for the GIGABYTE board (because raising FSB is very limited in this board).

jimwhite

01-28-08, 11:04 AM

Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz (actually Pentium Dual-Core 2.2GHz).... NOT !!!

it's a Conroe Core2Duo...

:cool:

renethx

01-28-08, 11:15 AM

.... NOT !!!

it's a Conroe Core2Duo...

:cool:
I mean that the processor used in my test was Pentium Dual-Core E2200 2.2GHz (Allendale core or sometimes called Conroe-1M core). It's basically the same as Core 2 Duo E4500 2.2GHz (Allendale core) apart from L2 cache size.

renethx

01-28-08, 12:07 PM

Here is the CPU usage when playing back a BD movie (Pirates of Caribbean 3) from a networked folder with Pentium Dual-Core E2200 (2.2GHz) and Media Player Classic (and GeForce 8500 GT; hardware acceleration does not work of course; mb is GA-P35-DS4).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=100492

Playback is almost stutter-free, but not perfect. You'd better get a CPU of 2.66GHz or higher (or overclock a lower CPU).

Forgive my ignorance, but why does hardware acceleration not work for network playback? Is this again related to the encoding format of the source file, or is there some other factor?

Also, maybe I'm being irrational, but I'm not excited about relying entirely on the CPU for HD playback. It may work with a fast enough processor, but it wouldn't leave much headroom for background tasks or running multiple extenders, not to mention the added cost & power consumption of a 3.0ghz CPU. I'm really hoping to offload a lot of the decoding work to the GPU! Otherwise, what's the point of having a discrete graphics card in a dedicated HTPC if it doesn't help at all?

I am sorry for confusion. Playing BD with Media Player Classic is in a sense the worst case senario where BD is of very high bitrate and hardware acceleration does not work. Playing a BD ISO file with PowerDVD or TotalMediaTheater is much easier (if the graphics card supports hardware accleration), and easier than playing the disc from the optical drive because the ISO file is already decrypted. Here is the CPU usage for playing back the ISO file from HDD and the disc from the optical drive respectively with the following system:

- Pentium Dual-Core E2200 2.2GHz
- eVGA GeForce 7150/630i mb
- XFX GeForce 8500 GT
- PowerDVD 7.3.3514
- Vista 32-bit.

Pirates of the Caribbean 3, from the ISO file (created with AnyDVD HD and ImgBurn):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=100602

Pirates of the Caribbean 3, from the disc:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=100603

But you still need a fast processor to play 1080p mkv files.

renethx

01-28-08, 12:34 PM

Yes, I am hoping for the upcoming mobo chipsets that have integrated graphics to include the HD decoding on the GPU.....that would be the best of both worlds, and the cheapest....it's really a question of patience....PPS :)

Right now, the cost of a client doing 1080p streaming is about (no deals):

HDD - 320 gb $70
Case - $100
Powersupply - $50
Motherboard - $100
Memory 2 GB - $50
Windows - $100
Graphics card - $100
DVD - $30 [everything is ripped at the server, but hey, still want to put that rented DVD right away in the unit beside the TV without ripping).
CPU - $100 for low end E2200.

So we are at $700 and maybe if you look out for deals down to-- $500

This is definitely NOT cheap on a per client basis!

Combined mobo+IGP -- hopefully that will shave $70-100 off the cost.

pps

A possible combination is:

- Pentium Dual-Core E2200 2.2GHz, $94
- GIGABYTE GA-G31M-S2L, $67
- Radeon HD 3450, $50

that will be able to handle both BD / HD DVD files (hardware acceleration of HD 3450 works for them) and 1080p mkv files (E2200 can handle them) (hopefully).

If you can wait till February, then

- Athlon 64 X2 5400 2.8GHz, $110
- GeForce 8200 mGPU motherboard, $80

may be your choice because 5400 2.8GHz is fast enough for 1080p files and PureVideo HD by GeForce 8200 will decode BD / HD DVD files.

renethx

01-28-08, 12:46 PM

>What is your preference of the two mobos, ASUS P5K-VM and GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R?

>I like the SilverStone Lascala SST-LC20B-M case because I feel it provides me more growth options. Could I do config 2 with the SilverStone Lascala SST-LC20B-M case and Antec NeoHE 430 PSU?

>Could I do either config with a 2600XT?

>What does the 3650 offer that the 2600XT does not? Which is best for BD/HD DVD playback?

>Which OS would be best for these configs, XP or Vista?

Thank you

Both mb is good. But if the case accepts ATX, I will choose GA-P35-DS3R.

You can use LC20M and NeoHE 430 in config 2.

You can use 2600 XT or 3650 in either config. Basically 3650 is identical with 2600 XT except die size (55 nm vs. 65 nm). Even power consumption does not differ much.

I prefer Vista.

bmcclory

01-28-08, 12:52 PM

Thanks for the clarification, renethx. Last question: is there a reason you recommend waiting for GeForce 8200 over AMD780? The pre-release buzz that I've read seems to favor the AMD.

renethx

01-28-08, 01:02 PM

Concerning cooler: don't know if the E8400 needs this much cooling power. Choice of cooler also depends on whether it fits on the motherboard and in the case. (read that the Thermalright may be a little too big for the Solo). If stock cooler is silent enough, I will stick to that.

Optical drive: dvd burner which should be silent...maybe thinking of Plextor, but open for suggestions. I currently own a Sony DRU-510a and might decide to keep that for the time being, as I'm not really planning on playing dvd discs from the htpc.
Unless you are overclocking CPU, the stock cooler is enough. But it depends on you.

The Sony is enough unless you feel it noisy. But if you don't play dvd disc, it remains silent, doesn't it?

renethx

01-28-08, 01:17 PM

Last question: is there a reason you recommend waiting for GeForce 8200 over AMD780?
Just because GeForce 8200 is likely to come first.

rcliff

01-28-08, 02:43 PM

I just wanted to report back that I finished my build and it's up and running :)
Thanks for your help renethx :D

Components Origen H6 case
Asus P5E-VM HDMI
Intel 3.0 GHz E8400 CPU w/stock cooler
Sapphire 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT
4 Seagate 7200.8 HDD's RAID 10 ON ICH9R (LOUD!)
Antec True480 PSU
3GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-6400
LG GSA-H62NK DVD burner
Extra 120mm and 60mm case fans

Plays 1080P video without issues. With the stock cooler, speedfan shows the CPU at 45C and system 46C.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/218/beforeze6.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beforeze6.jpg) http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9404/after1fn3.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=after1fn3.jpg) http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7631/after2mg2.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=after2mg2.jpg) http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1140/rackyi4.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rackyi4.jpg)

jxo

01-28-08, 05:30 PM

Several manufacturers are releasing HD 3650 soon.

MSI, Sapphire, PowerColor: late January
ASUS: early February

If you can't wait, buy Sapphire HD 2600 Pro or XT 256MB.....

See: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102725

Sapphire 3650 appears to be out.

SomethingMore

01-28-08, 05:58 PM

Hey all!

Looking to build a HTPC that will be easily upgradeable to HD, if necessary, in a year or so. I'm looking at the following for my "core" parts:

- AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ EE w/ 2x1MB Cache (Socket AM2)
- Asus M2A-VM HDMI w/ AMD 690G, etc. etc.
- Kingston ValueRAM 2GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM
edit: this motherboard looks like it could be better for me:
- MSI K9AGM2-FIH

I do not intend to use this for gaming, but I want it to play any video files I throw at it (mkv, etc.), along with HD DVD and Blu Ray discs. Which motherboard should I go with? If I'm going to need a separate PCI-E video card, what do you recommend? Should I get a cheaper CPU?

Thoughts?? Thanks!

jerome8283

01-28-08, 09:01 PM

See: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102725

Sapphire 3650 appears to be out.

What's the difference between the 3650 and 3670?

liquiddvds

01-28-08, 09:13 PM

HappyFunBoater

01-28-08, 09:47 PM

Hi,I had another quick question.I have ordered 2-WD Caviar SE16 WD7500AAKS for internal.I already have 2-750GB USB 2.0 My Book hard drives.
I am mainly using for storage of HD series/TV and DVD backups for now with Blu Ray to come later.
Performance wise should I try to stick to all internal drives?
I have enough SATA slots to fill on MOBO and case.
I really dont know much about running RAID and what the bennefits will be over using external as I am still learning.
I could easily sell the 2 externals and get 2 more of the WD Caviar SE16 WD7500AAKS drives but I want to while they are still $150 :D.
Any help is greatly appreciated .

The internal drives will get up to 100MB/s, while the external will be limited by the USB interface to about 40MB/s. Plus, the external drives typically are lower-end with slow seek times and rotational rates. So sticking with internal is a good idea.

As far as RAID, unless you absolutely need access to your storage 24x7 and can't stand a few hours of downtime, I would stick with JBOD. Use the external drives for backup. For example, maybe use something like SecCopy to make nightly backups of the internal drives. Or use the Windows backup app. If you can stand a few days of lost data, it's even better to do a weekly backup and keep the drives offsite. Remember, RAID protects against downtime, but offsite backup is the only thing that protects against total loss of the server due to virus, user error, fire, etc. Once you've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours ripping CDs and DVDs, and perhaps you don't even have access to some of those CD and DVDs, it would be a shame to lose it all due to a single virus wiping out the data on all the drives attached to the server, including the backup drives.

renethx

01-28-08, 11:21 PM

Looking to build a HTPC that will be easily upgradeable to HD, if necessary, in a year or so.
If you are not playing HD contents right now, wait for GeForce 8200 or AMD 780G chipset motherboards (February-March). The onboard video will be enough for BD/HD DVD.

renethx

01-28-08, 11:24 PM

What's the difference between the 3650 and 3670?
Specs of 3670 has not been announced. The relation between 3670 and 3650 will be similar to the relation between 2600 XT and 2600 Pro. That means 3670 be a higher core/mem clock version of 3650.

rohantalwar

01-29-08, 07:58 AM

renethx

01-30-08, 12:47 AM

rohantalwar

There is nothing I can suggest (simply because I don't have enough knowledge) ... the question may be better answered in an independent thread.

renethx

01-30-08, 12:59 AM

FYI, the next version of Windows, dubbed Windows 7, was rumored to be released in H2 2009. However the OS is likely to come only in 2011 or later.

- The Tech Report - Windows 7 not coming until 2011? (January 28, 2008) (http://techreport.com/discussions.x/14018)
- The WinVistaClub- Microsoft : Windows 7 STILL in planning stage and will take approximately 3 years to develop. (http://www.winvistaclub.com/i7.html)

crabnebula

01-30-08, 11:52 AM

Hi,

I have a question with regards to the 8600GTS. I am currently using this in a Windows Vista HTPC but am facing problems with non HD content. My Blu-rays and HD-DVDs play back fine but whenever I try to play a DVD or a downloaded SD file the quality is very poor. This leads me to believe that no scaling is taking place. When I goto the Nvidia Control Panel I get 4 options with regards to scaling. The one I try to choose is "Use Nvidia Scaling" but everytime I select this it goes back to "Use Displays Inbuilt Scaling". I am using a Full HD Pioneer Kuro and my resolution is set to 1080p/60Hz.
Is there anything you can suggest?

Thanks alot,

Rohan

The scaling options in the CP have nothing to do with video upscaling. That setting is only useful if you set Windows' resolution below your display's native resolution, which is not your case. If your DVD is shown full screen, then it is already being upscaled by the HTPC. What you are most likely experiencing is bad deinterlacing, but it would be helpful if you could further describe what you mean by very poor PQ.

What are you using as a media player to watch DVDs? Did you install any other MPEG-2 decoders on you system?

audionewer

01-30-08, 07:42 PM

is there any review for 2600xt, 3400 series video card for HD movies playback? how is it compare to nvidia video card ( 8000 series video card?

renethx

01-31-08, 12:16 AM

I think there is no review yet. There are several superficial CPU usage comparison tests here and there.

etcarroll

01-31-08, 02:07 PM

Well, just waiting on postman to deliver my E2200, already have;

GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L - open box @ $64
SAPPHIRE 100218L Radeon HD 2600XT 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 at $115
Crucial ram recommended for the high level ATX build - $45 after rebate
Cooler Master TC05 Centurion case - $15 on eBay new
320gig SATA hd. - had it already
Vista Home premium OEMe - $101

The case came with a stock 350 watt PSU, but I grabbed a Thermaltake 500 watt with a $25 rebate from NewEGG.- came to aprox $30

Will pull the Hauppage 150MCE and Fusion card from my existing case for setup and initial burn in, but replace them in time to see Pats win the big game.

I just want to get Vista and MCE configured for now.

SpiffyDude

01-31-08, 04:09 PM

My build is targeted at using vista home premium for the media center capabilities.
I want to play DVD iso images from a Home Media Server. (still need to hook this up)
I also want to be able to play Blu ray/HD DVD media from this unit.
I also want to be able to rip to and play Blu Ray/HD DVD's iso images.
I am not doing any type of PVR processes. (HD Tivo for that)
I am not going to store anything on this unit.
I need to run HDMI to my Plasma (1080p)
I need to run either coaxial or optical to my sound bar. (5.1 only)
I want to keep the case noise down to a reasonable level.

I put together a list on New Egg with the parts listed at the beginning of this thread for the ATX high end. I did swap the case with the mid range ATX example. I also picked a 3850 that does not use a fan. I also added a optical drive.

# CPU: Core 2 Duo E8400 3.00GHz Socket 775
# CPU Cooler: ZEROtherm BTF90
# Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 (rev. 2.0 or 2.1) Intel P35 chipset ATX, $178.
# Memory: Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT12864AA804 DDR2-800 2 x 1GB Kit
# Graphics Card: Sapphire Radeon Ultimate Edition 100266U HD 3850 512MB...
# HDD: Samsung SpinPoint T166 500GB HD501LJ 500GB SATA
# PSU: Corsair HX520W
# Case: SilverStone Lascala 10 CS-SST-LC10b
# Optical Drive: LG Blu Ray/HD DVD GGC-H20L

Will this build get me to the promised land? :)