Mopar, lets try a different approach.

1) Power up every thing, do a reset and put the remote aside.The remote is not needed for now.

2) Disconnect the masking motor and its power supply from the relay board and power up the motor independantly so that masking starts closing and comes to where you want it to be, eg in the midlle (fully closed).

3) While the masking is closing observe the display and see which way the numbers go. 0..1,2,3,.... OR 0..449,448,447 etc.

4) Once the masking is closed, reconnect the motor and the power supply to the relay board and do another reset with the remote. See which way the screen moves and which way the numbers go.

This may give a clue to the problem.


Teecue

I did this quick this morning. And as I thought the controller really doesn't monitor the positon other then when it is asked to move it. The numbers don't move at all if you move the masking manually.

I have fully closed the masking a done the reset a couple of time. It moves to the open positon like it should, hits the reset button then the limit switch. Then it advances back to the closed postion to take it off the limit switch. Reset looks totaly normal. So the board is still capable it telling the masking to go to the closed position, because it does it during the end of the reset. But all it ever seems to want to do is open it.

Well I have tried calling Pro Brands that makes the rotor now a few times but all I ever get is a answering machine, never have got a answer to the e-mail I sent them on 4/22, so I am thinking they are going to be no help at all. I should be done with my landscaping duties tomarrow night, then I can get back at this thing again. But I really don't know where to start. I simple manual forward/reverse switch is looking really good about now, LOL.....

UPDATE:

PBI did call me back today, but they had no idea. Never have heard of them wanting to run backwards like mine is doing, which doesn't surprise me I guess. I asked if their was any other reset comands and he said no. So back to square one.

Just thinking out loud here. But it is possible that a Hall Effect sensor could tell what direction the little motor is spinning, but to do that it would need two sensors correct? I only see one on the board, just thinking that maybe I am spinning the motor backward from what it is suppose to, but I don't think it should care. With only one sensor it can only be counting rotations.

Another thought it the coax cable, could bad cable cause weird things to happens, seems like a work or no work thing to me. And it did work fine before doing a reset. Manual says to use solid copper core only, not copper over steel. Think all my coax is copper over steel.

How long is your coax run? Unless it is more than 30 feet or so, I don't think the copper vs copper over steel should make much of a difference. My coax is only about 10 feet long. It is copper over steel and it works fine.

From the way you describe that your reset function appears to work correctly, it sounds to me like your motor is running in the right direction. If your reset and zero limit switches are at the most open position of your masking, the counter should be at zero when the masking is all the way open. In other words, from any position, if you hit the reset function and your masking moves in the open direction towards the reset and zero switches, then it sounds to me like the motor is hooked up correctly.

Ya I think you are right on the motor, reset works perfect.

Coax is only about 8' long so should be no problem.

This wouldn't be so strage in not for the fact that the reset works perfect and control unit is at 0 when it resets, fully open.

Only other thought I had is if the unit has a maximum amount it can be off from 0 when a reset is done. What I mean is that when I did my reset I think the masking was about 6" from being fully open when the control box was at "0". I really don't know this for sure because I didn't pay much attension figuring that doing the reset would "0" everything out. It would be kind of strange and dumb to have it programmed that way but you never know.

I guess the only way to know for sure is for some brave soul to take and partly close their masking while leaving the control at 0 and doing reset.

http://home.comcast.net/~scottj0007/theater/MaskingSide_Photo_04a.jpg
Note the back Gorilla masking tape. I had to use this because as the fabric rolls onto the pipe, the diameter gets bigger and the fabric begins to roll up faster. The cable has to roll onto the pipe at the same rate as the fabric or else it starts to bind. This is not an elegant solution, but it works. I wrapped several layers of tape where the cable starts on the pipe and then there are fewer and fewer as the cable wraps down the pipe, it was a trial and error effort that took some time to get right, but it works very smoothly now.

It's been over 15 yrs since I've taken Calculus.....but I was thinking a better way to do this would be to calculate the size of a cone (wooden or metal) that could be slipped over the pipe. Any "current" Calc whizzes out there that want to come up with the solution for that?

It's been over 15 yrs since I've taken Calculus.....but I was thinking a better way to do this would be to calculate the size of a cone (wooden or metal) that could be slipped over the pipe. Any "current" Calc whizzes out there that want to come up with the solution for that?

No complex calc needed ;)

After one full rev of the masking rod, one layer of masking fabric is either removed or added. At the same time, one rev of cable is wound or unwound over the rod. So the "cone" has to compensate for the changing thickness of the roll of masking fabric.

The slope of the cone is defined by the rise (how "thick" it gets) and the run (how "long" it is). The rise is the thickness of the masking fabric, the run is the width/diameter of the aircraft cable.

The simplest cone would be to use a triangular piece of duct tape that's the same thickness as the GOM. Let's say it takes ten revolutions of the masking from fully open to close. The width of the tape is 10 x width of cable; the length is approximately 10 x circumference of masking rod. Then, just wrap the tape around the rod like a spiral; it starts out thin and builds up thickness like a cone.

Wanted to through an update in here since I put the masking on the back burner for awhile and worked on other parts of the theater. Well yesterday I decided to plug it in for the first time in close to a month and fight with it. So I pluged it on and did a reset right away and BAM it worked perfect just like it was suppose to!! :D So I decided to fine tune it, had to adjust the open limit switched to get it to open all the way. So I adjusted them and did I think 2 more resets and all was good. Did one final adjustment on the switch and did a reset and it freaked out again :mad: same thing, no matter what it only wants to open up further. Does a rest fine but when you try and close the mask it wants to open untill it hits the limit switch. I think it is cursed, need to scrap it all for a new design.......:(

AVS member "gunnar" was working on a Picaxe microprocessor controled masking system, have
not seen a post from him lately.
Do the mechnicals in your setup require a lot of torgue? Don't give up fellow Mopar guy. You have come a long way.


John :D

AVS member "gunnar" was working on a Picaxe microprocessor controled masking system, have
not seen a post from him lately.
Do the mechnicals in your setup require a lot of torgue? Don't give up fellow Mopar guy. You have come a long way.


John :D

Yes it does require a good amount of power. If I had to do it over again I would go a different direction on the mechanics of it. What I had works and will be very acurate and consistant. The big down side is that it make a fair amount of noise and vibration. I may try and gear the speed down some more to help with that. But with all the effort that I put into it I can live with the noise I think, maybe some day I will get the itch and try an new system....

http://home.comcast.net/~scottj0007/theater/MaskingSide_Photo_04a.jpg

It's been over 15 yrs since I've taken Calculus.....but I was thinking a better way to do this would be to calculate the size of a cone (wooden or metal) that could be slipped over the pipe. Any "current" Calc whizzes out there that want to come up with the solution for that?

Were you concerned about the top and bottom spring tension possibly giving you a skewed image? In other words, if the tension changed on the top left spring, and bottom left spring, the masking would be slanted. How did you overcome this?

So I have been reading this thread over the past few days and I am somewhat confused of the use of the Eagle Aspen motor. It appears that it is used to determine position and provide programmable stopping points. But a separate motor is actually used to power the system? As anyone found a better system more complete system (i.e. less surgery)? Has anyone tried using the Somfy motors? It also appears that there a bunch of Chinese tubular motor companies, but no one seems to sale them to individuals.

I have also been looking at using the sliding door tracks for the side guides. Has anyone else used these? Do they slide smoothly enough?

B2

Has anyone tried using the Somfy motors?Those were discussed but they are $$$. Industrial stepper motors would be another option (look for CNC machine motors & controls). DC motors are even cheaper but you would need to add the stepper controls (optical encoder, control boards, etc.).

So I have been reading this thread over the past few days and I am somewhat confused of the use of the Eagle Aspen motor. It appears that it is used to determine position and provide programmable stopping points. But a separate motor is actually used to power the system? As anyone found a better system more complete system (i.e. less surgery)? Has anyone tried using the Somfy motors? It also appears that there a bunch of Chinese tubular motor companies, but no one seems to sale them to individuals.... B2Yes, I used the Eagle Aspen motor to determine position and provide programmable stopping points. The system works great for me but as I have stated before, if I were doing it again I think I would go another route. You are correct that the Eagle Aspen motor method requires too much surgery and as Mopar-Mudder has unfortunately discovered, sometimes the programming gets messed up and does not work.

The problem is that no one has found the "perfect" solution for the typical do-it-yourselfer. If I were doing it again, I would probably pursue the tubular motors combined with constant tension springs to keep the masking tight. I really like the Somfy tube motors, however they are pricey and they do not have multiple programmable stopping points. Also, I do not believe the Somfy remotes can be "learned" by most universal remote control devices.

A lot of ideas and possibilities have been discussed, but to my knowledge, no one has actually implemented a DIY system that has a simple motor/control that is an easy of-the-shelf solution.

- Scott

Well I think I have found a work around to get my system to work at least. If I do a normal rest, but right after the masking has opened all the way hiting the reset and stop button I unplug power to the motor. Then it can't do its little advance forward off the stop limit switch. The relays still click so it thinks that it is doing it but it doesn't actually move. Plug the motor in and it works perfect. I have no idea why this works, why the small advance forward wants to make it run backwards? But it is a work around that will work.

I have found another thing, if the masking actually hits eight the open or closed limit switches it messes up the tracking of position and you have to reset. Creates a problem for me because I was using both. I am going to have to cut my screen down an inch or so to keep from hitting the open switch not a big deal. But I was using the closed switch to bring the masking totally closed and cover the screen. Going to have to compramise setting a memory to get it within about 1" of being closed.

The problem is that no one has found the "perfect" solution for the typical do-it-yourselfer.

Which is one reason why I didn't quite go that route myself in trying to come up with more affordable 4 way remote controlled masking. (As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I cobbled together 2 commercially-made systems, a Carada Masquerade and a Goelst panel track system).

I have HUGE admiration for the DIYers around here and what people have managed to achieve. I only wish I had the skill and drive some people show around here. At the same time, viewing these threads makes me relieved to have a not-too-expensive 4 way masking system that "just works."

But, again, I paid more than the average DIYer wants to spend to get there so there are always trade offs.

I believe (if I remember correctly) that some are doing the 4 way masking with a 2:35:1 screen, the addition of the top/bottom masking to do more minute adjustments for some of the wider-than-2:35:1 formats that can leave a bit of letterboxing they want to get rid of. (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

I'd add a bit of 4-way masking user experience: Some might want to buy a non-standard sized screen shape, i.e. as tall and wide a screen as they can fit. That way you can operate as a CIH system as you wish, but also leaves the flexibility of opening up the top/bottom masks taller when you want an even bigger image size, especially for certain 16:9 or IMAX material or whatever. Personally I'm not driven to maintain any constant height or size relationship in my set up. I just vary the image size as the movie content, source quality or my mood desires. But having that extra height has been so gratifying. For instance, had I stayed with a 2:35:1 screen I would have
had around a 122" wide screen or so, and using the same image height that would make for an image size of around 105" diagonal for regular non-scope material (16:9 HD TV content, 1:85:1 movies etc).

Having ordered a taller screen, I can instead watch movies like Avatar at up to around 127" diagonal! (From 10 to 11 feet away). The size difference and impact between 105" diagonal and 127" diagonal is just massive. It really does give an IMAX vibe to the presentation. I also watched War Of The Worlds Blu-Ray at close to that size recently and it really added an enormity to the proceedings, and the size of the Tripod machines, that the smaller size couldn't create (in my room, anyway).

Just something to think about for those considering 4 way masking.



If I were doing it again, I would probably pursue the tubular motors combined with constant tension springs to keep the masking tight. I really like the Somfy tube motors, however they are pricey and they do not have multiple programmable stopping points. Also, I do not believe the Somfy remotes can be "learned" by most universal remote control devices.


- Scott

At first this confused me because I'd thought my Goelst panel system used somfy motors, and aside from the open/closed positions it allows up to 5 additional user-programmed stopping points. But I checked with Goelst and it turns out it's their own motor, so that explains things. I had a heck of a time finding a place that sold curtain/panel track motors with intermediate pre-set stopping points. I guess most systems us somfy motors which would explain why they didn't offer the pre-sets.

I learn something everyday on this forum!

I know my Carada uses a somfy motor (it just has an "open" and "closed" position...along with being able to jog the masking continuously or discretely by 1/2" increments).

Anyway, if anyone here is desperate for a motor system with programmable pre-sets, I think Goelst probably sells the motor-only if you want.

So I have been toying with the idea of building a 4-way motor controller and I was curious if I were to build such a beast how many would be interested in buying it and how much they would be willing to spend? Once I have the design then it should be fairly easy to get it replicated. I am just trying to judge how much of my time I should dedicate to making it user friendly and easy to reproduce:) Here is my ideas on what it should do:

- Control 4 stepper motors independently (yes I know that steppers are more pricey but I think they offer the best position control and do not require any position encoders. However, i would consider an alternative motor/encoder scheme. I still think that I would prefer a tubular motor as I have not quite figured out a good way to attach the motor to the mask tube (any ideas here). It also appears that there are a lot of Chinese manufacturers of tubular motors, but no one seems to sale them for retail:(
- Controller would have a learning IR remote capability (so you could use any remote).
- Have front panel controls to manual perform any operation that the IR could perform.
- Virtually unlimited preset positions (lets say 256)
- Independent control of bottom. top, left and right masks
- Possibly use light sensor on leading edge of mask to allow for automatic position.
- Limit switch inputs for min and max mask positions

Another nice feature would be to have an input telling the system what size of picture is being displayed. Although I am not sure how to obtain that information given all the different sources.

Not meaning to rain on your very good ideas, but I remember posts written by AVS member "getgray" talking about how expensive a process to have approiate goverment approvals for any electronics that include microprocessors & very hefty fines for selling w/o those approvals. He had to jump thru all those hoops to bring his "Cineslide" A-lens sled product to market. I'll try & find a link to that info or maybe he may post about this...

EDIT: Look at post #s 97 & 573 in this thread for some of "GetGray" input...

John :(

Just wanted to update that I have my masking working with FR701 on it and I think I have all the bugs worked out and everything seems smooth for now. Won't really know untill I use it for awhile.

Buy the way it takes a 40# weight to keep 6 feet of fabric tight.

So what is the best way to attach a motor to the roller tube?

I think gearbelts (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1DHJ1) with gearbelt pulleys (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2L517?Pid=search) might be a good option. This would eliminate any slippage. You would just need to find the right sizes to fit the shaft of the motor and the roller tube.

I think gearbelts (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1DHJ1) with gearbelt pulleys (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2L517?Pid=search) might be a good option. This would eliminate any slippage. You would just need to find the right sizes to fit the shaft of the motor and the roller tube.

Interesting..I am not as mechanically inclined as I am electrically:) So I am having a hard time visualizing how to attach the above gear pulley to lets say a 2" diameter tube. It looks like there are some some screw holes in the flange?!? Are those to tighten down on a smaller rod that goes through the inner diameter hole or could they be use for a tube the overlaps the flange and screws into them? I just want an easy motor shaft to tube attachment...surely this is a fairly common thing?!?!

UPDATE:

I have a 99% complete theater now with a working masking system based on the rotor control that was figured out in this thread. For some reason I do have to do a little voodoo magic to get it to reset correctly but it does work. My masking is only 2 way but it goes from completely closed to open on a 142" wide screen.

Here are pictures at closed, 4:3, 16:9, 2.35. It will go open about another 3" from the 2.35 position.

More pictures can be seen at the link in my signature.

http://greenerslumber.com/customers/greener/Pictures/IMG_5656%20(Large).JPG
http://greenerslumber.com/customers/greener/Pictures/IMG_5654%20(Large).JPG
http://greenerslumber.com/customers/greener/Pictures/IMG_5652%20(Large).JPG
http://greenerslumber.com/customers/greener/Pictures/IMG_5651%20(Large).JPG

That's an beautiful, clean looking screen wall.

MoparMudder,
That's one beautiful theater man!
Did you stay with sprockets & chain for your drive mech or did you switch over to timing belts & timing gears ? AMazing work. Love the DIY star ceiling you build & thanks for the build thread on that.

John :D

MoparMudder,
That's one beautiful theater man!
Did you stay with sprockets & chain for your drive mech or did you switch over to timing belts & timing gears ? AMazing work. Love the DIY star ceiling you build & thanks for the build thread on that.

John :D

I used a timing belt and gear system. Funny thing is that I never took and good pictures while building it, just got too busy I guess. Truth is that it is a bit noisy and you get some vibration with the spinning threaded rod. But it is very acurate and repeatable when moving. If I were to do it all over again I thing I would try and make something that had a long timing belt top and bottom that ran horizontal across the screen. Then hook masking on that to move it. Solves two problems 1) no spinning shaft to vibrate and make noisy 2) you can run that belt at a much slower speed then you need to run the shaft to get the same travel speed of the masking. I had to gear my shafts down a number of times to get the speed down enough to where the noise was not too bad.

But it works and I am not going to change it any time soon I can tell you that!!

I'm very glad you got the masking to work. It looks absolutely great. I really like the clean look of the screen wall and the fact that you made your masking to go completely closed. Your entire theater looks amazing. Great work!
- Scott

Beautifully done Mopar_Mudder, just beautiful!

Now that you're living with a masking system like that I bet you'll find it hard to live without one. :-)

Well my automated masking has been running perfectly since I got it going, but I have run into a problem lately. When opening up my masking it will open most of the way and just stop.

Controller will still accept commands and I can recall a numer, it will count up to the correct number but never moves.
I have tried a Resync
I have tried a total reset

If I leave the controller unpluged for a little but it will work again. I resync it and recall a bunch of position and it works fine. Then I go to actually use it and open the masking and it stops part way open, seems to maybe stop in the same spot every time but I haven't verified that.

tried different coax cable and no change.

I know it isn't my relays or motor system. I can jump 18v to the wire that run the relay system and it opens and closes fine.

Thought some one might have some ideas of what might be going on. I do have an extra control (reciever) box but I thought I had read not to mix a different receiver with the board that is in the rotor.

Well my automated masking has been running perfectly since I got it going, but I have run into a problem lately. When opening up my masking it will open most of the way and just stop.

Controller will still accept commands and I can recall a numer, it will count up to the correct number but never moves.
I have tried a Resync
I have tried a total reset

If I leave the controller unpluged for a little but it will work again. I resync it and recall a bunch of position and it works fine. Then I go to actually use it and open the masking and it stops part way open, seems to maybe stop in the same spot every time but I haven't verified that.

tried different coax cable and no change.

I know it isn't my relays or motor system. I can jump 18v to the wire that run the relay system and it opens and closes fine.

Thought some one might have some ideas of what might be going on. I do have an extra control (reciever) box but I thought I had read not to mix a different receiver with the board that is in the rotor.

Seems to be a dead thread but I wanted to update. Called Eagle about the problem I am having and they said it sounds like too much amperage is being drawn by the rotor. I am guessing this puts it in a protect mode then resests afterwhile. They said I can attach a different control box to the rotor no problem, well I just happen to have a spare. Hooked it up and same deal, work a couple time and then stop. I do have an extra control board that goes in the rotor I could try also? Just hard to believe the relays that I am using would use any more amps then the original motor.

Relays I am using list coil current as 51mA, I assume that is how much they draw. Come to think of it I have 2 relays, only one is used for one direction and both are used in the other direction (one reverses motor). I think it has only ever stopped when opening, wonder if that is the direction that uses both and the combined draw is too much?

Are you using the relays specified earlier in this thread? Those are what I'm using and mine is working fine.

Are you using the relays specified earlier in this thread? Those are what I'm using and mine is working fine.

No I am using a different relay because I am using a 110v motor to run the masking. Here is what I am using PB170-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=PB170-ND)