Just got finished reading a thread about BF on another popular forum related to DVR's etc....

One person posted that they plan to buy the HD DVD player Wal MArt has for $29...several folks said he must have typed that wrong...he said "No, it's $29 at WM..here's the ad..."

Well you guessed it...it was something like a Magnovox UPCONVERT to 1080P standard old DVD player...he was convinced it was hi-def DVD until a few chimed in and exlained what he was really looking at.

Other folks even seemed confused a bit since it says it DOES convert to 1080P and "isn't that considered hi-def?".

Folks...I'm getting more and more convinced that the masses are never gonna catch onto HDM if the mass retailers tout "upconverts to HD quality" with EVERY SD player they now sell...the masses will do like the poster mentioned..go out, buy the player, and sit back and enjoy all his current movies THINKING he just landed a great deal on a "hi-def" DVD player....

Face it folks..it's happening and it's gonna happen all season long..and beyond...I think just the forum world for the most part will be the ones buying HDM and just upgrading every now and then to keep the sales numbers fluctuating...

Sad for HDM, but I think unless HDM gets it's sh*t together, nobody (ok mabe some) outside this world we call HT related forums will be about the only substantial ustomer HDM has around.

Give it time, Once HDM Player prices come down to the $100 or less MSRP on the entry level, I think you will see upconverting players being phased out and replaced with HDM players only. Heck, once they drop to the $29 China Brand at Walmart level, I would expect to see retailers drop SD DVD players altogether. The big benefit that HDM has over other format replacement attempts is that is fully, 100% backwards compatible with the format it is replacing.

As for now, these are still early adopter gadgets. $100 sale or not, Joe6Pack isn't ready for HDM. The technology just isn't mature enough.

On a lighter note.....one WM here had 6 A2's for $198 and each came with an HDMI cable in the box.

You wonder why any mfgs even bother with upconverting $40 dollar players. Is there any money in those? I mean.... WTF?

I hear ya though, its totally an uphill battle we face. I have a funny feeling that we are all gonna get stuck with Laserdisc Part Deux. Even so, Im OK with that. :D

Now you know why Sony chose the name, "Blu-ray" for their format.

It's something totally different.

Really, its not rocket science. Is it really that hard for people to educate themselves before plonking down their hard earned cash? Its not as though information about HDM is hidden or hard to find. HDM discs and players are clearly marked with their respective logos, its pretty obvious to anyone who can form coherent thought that an upconveting player is different from HD DVD and Blu Ray.

Really, its not rocket science. Is it really that hard for people to educate themselves before plonking down their hard earned cash? Its not as though information about HDM is hidden or hard to find. HDM discs and players are clearly marked with their respective logos, its pretty obvious to anyone who can form coherent thought that an upconveting player is different from HD DVD and Blu Ray.

I strongly disagree. The upconverting players I've seen all tout "1080p resolution!", "Full HD!", "Total HD!", "Total, Full, 1080p Resultion To The Max!", etc.

Those things are PLASTERED CORNER TO CORNER with HD this and HD that.

Now have fun explaining to my girlfriend that those players aren't HD and that she should spend 10 times more for a "real" HD player.

Something needs to be done about SD players claiming to be "HD". It's as serious an obstacle as the format war in my opinion.

I strongly disagree. The upconverting players I've seen all tout "1080p resolution!", "Full HD!", "Total HD!", "Total, Full, 1080p Resultion To The Max!", etc.

Those things are PLASTERED CORNER TO CORNER with HD this and HD that.

Now have fun explaining to my girlfriend that those players aren't HD and that she should spend 10 times more for a "real" HD player.

Something needs to be done about SD players claiming to be "HD". It's as serious an obstacle as the format war in my opinion.

Exactly why Blu-ray was a smart choice for a name..

How is the consumer supposed to keep track of this stuff? For displays, you have 'HD displays" that are 720p -- but accept 1080i, 1080p/60 or even 1080p/24. And what is the difference between feeding a 1080p display 1080i versus 1080p? OK. Wanna talk about "HD audio?" How many so called "HD players" can actually "do HD audio?" How do you define "do HD audio?" Should you really call a player an HD player if it cannot do HD audio?

It is actually kinda funny. You can buy an "HD Player" that only outputs 1080i, and at the same store you can get a "DVD upconverting" player that can actually output "true HD" at 1080p. Which is better? 1080i or 1080p?

Exactly why Blu-ray was a smart choice for a name..


Yes now the only confusion for consumer is were they can find Blu-ray TVs. ;)

How is the consumer supposed to keep track of this stuff? For displays, you have 'HD displays" that are 720p -- but accept 1080i, 1080p/60 or even 1080p/24. And what is the difference between feeding a 1080p display 1080i versus 1080p? OK. Wanna talk about "HD audio?" How many so called "HD players" can actually "do HD audio?" How do you define "do HD audio?" Should you really call a player an HD player if it cannot do HD audio?

It is actually kinda funny. You can buy an "HD Player" that only outputs 1080i, and at the same store you can get a "DVD upconverting" player that can actually output "true HD" at 1080p. Which is better? 1080i or 1080p?

It's a giant cluster#&%@. No doubt about that.

Yes now the only confusion for consumer is were they can find Blu-ray TVs. ;)

Hehe, good point, actually on the latest Sony TV models I saw a sticker saying "BluRay Compatible".

Let's face it, HD-DVD was a terrible choice for naming. It doesn't roll of your tongue and it retains the DVD, which doesn't differentiate itself from regular DVD that much.

Now....Betamax...that's just awesome!!!!!:D

I strongly disagree. The upconverting players I've seen all tout "1080p resolution!", "Full HD!", "Total HD!", "Total, Full, 1080p Resultion To The Max!", etc.

Those things are PLASTERED CORNER TO CORNER with HD this and HD that.

Now have fun explaining to my girlfriend that those players aren't HD and that she should spend 10 times more for a "real" HD player.

Something needs to be done about SD players claiming to be "HD". It's as serious an obstacle as the format war in my opinion.


I agree. I saw a regular $35 DVD player with "1080p resolution " silk screened onto the disk door!! If I didn't know better I'd swear it must be a HD player!

Joe and Mary Feedbag Buffet are never going to figure this stuff out.

I believe the upconverting players are going to die out as the HD-DVD players drop in price.

Let's face it, HD-DVD was a terrible choice for naming. It doesn't roll of your tongue and it retains the DVD, which doesn't differentiate itself from regular DVD that much.

Now....Betamax...that's just awesome!!!!!:D

?

There is TV and there is HDTV

There is DVD and there is HD DVD

Everyone here should realize that 90% of the population actually thinks just having HDMI gives them HD.

My buddy bought a $75 DVD player that unconverts and has HDMI, I told him that he should have waited for the HD-DVD player deal and he told me that there was no need because his DVD player did HD alread :eek:

The companies and the stores that sell HD products have failed to teach the real customer the truth and outside of cost this is the biggest reason why HD stuff isnt selling enough.

?

There is TV and there is HDTV

There is DVD and there is HD DVDAhh so, now I get it! The HD DVD players upconvert the DVDs for HDTV.

The boondoggle that is "HD" is only perpetuated by the widespread careless application of the term "HD" by CEM's and the media.

Witness the marketing of "HD" radio, when there is nothing "HD" about it. The fact that there are no industry standards to define HD audio resolutions (i.e. and agreed upon minimum bitrate for each codec, min sampling rate, etc) only perpetuates the dilution of the value of the term "HD".

And then the CE's call 1080p "Full HD"!?

Well, 720p is not "less-full" HD- it's a valid HD resolution, more appropriate for most people with 42" or smaller sets at normal viewing distances, assuming less cost than a same-sized 1080p set, since their eyes will never perceive finer detail at 3-4 screen widths viewing distance.

And then the whole downplaying of 1080i, when 1080i and 1080p will produce the same image on any display that deinterlaces film source properly, which is most displays (720p or 1080p) in the past several years.

..and then ther's the "HD-Lite" debacle afflicting most subscription HD providers. The December 2007 WSR has a great rant opinion piece concerning the bit-rate starved, filtered output from most sat/cable HD feeds, and some OTA feeds, resulting in compression-artifact-ridden messes, making people long for uncompressed analog cable!

And to top it off, most average people think upscaling DVD players are "HD" players, and you have the Perfect Storm that will sink the S.S. HDM ...

As I said many times, HD is NOT the killer app of HD.

IMO the killer app will be the option to get contextual IMDB.COM informations via web during the movie (about actors, directors, cinematographer, writers, spoofs, trivia, stars gossip, and so on.).

For example, when I see a new actor/actress in a scene, I want to know (just pushing a button):

- who is he/she?
- what movies has he/she done in the past? Can I buy them?
- what movies is he/she doing now?
- the latest gossip about him/her
- ...and so on.

As I said many times, HD is NOT the killer app of HD.

IMO the killer app will be the option to get contextual IMDB.COM informations via web during the movie (about actors, directors, cinematographer, writers, spoofs, trivia, stars gossip, and so on.).

For example, when I see a new actor/actress in a scene, I want to know (just pushing a button):

- who is he/she?
- what movies has he/she done in the past? Can I buy them?
- what movies is he/she doing now?
- the latest gossip about him/her
- ...and so on.

Agree 100%. It will NOT be the better PQ and AQ that attracts the masses to HDM. It will be the special features like PIP and WE.

Disney just made a statement about their use for WE concerning Sleeping Beauty. Here is the Scenerio they painted:

"Just imagine that every Friday at 7PM, through your HDM player - you will be able to have a live chat with the Princess - talk with her, ask her questions. The possibilities are endless"

Paramount, WB, Toshiba and MS have created a consurtium (Sp Ck) to explore how to use the IF/WE feature of HDM.

And profile 1.1/PIP is not the only use for Dual Stream Video.

We are on the forefront of expanding what the 5" shiny disc can do. We may find 5 years from now that better PQ and AQ are 2nd or even 3rd on the list of why people bought into HDM.

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q211/Love_My_Logics/HVLOGO.jpg
I think the term "Hi-Vision", the Japanese name for their High-Definition system, should have been used from the beginning here in America - no "upconverting" player could be called "Hi-Vision" because it couldn't play true High-Definition titles and there would be less confusion. Or, the HD-DVD format could have been called "Super" DVD - consumers would clearly understand that "Super" DVD was better than regular DVD.

Remember, RCA used to call their Dot-Sequential color-tv system "High-Definition", which it was as compared to the CBS Field Sequential US Color TV standard. It was a "Six Megacycle, High-Definition Compatible Color Television System" - which, with changes in nomeclature and a few twists, became NTSC-II Color Television.

IMO the killer app will be the option to get contextual IMDB.COM informations via web during the movie (about actors, directors, cinematographer, writers, spoofs, trivia, stars gossip, and so on.).

I totally disagree because the majority just want to watch movies or TV. Hey its very cool but you are going overboard in thinking that the public really cares about that kind of fluff.

Its a very simply idea....

People rent movies...
watch them....
send them back.....


All this content stuff is fine for a minority but its not the driving force behind any DVD (HD or SD) sold.

To me this is just another idea from those in a glass bubble who dont realize who the mass consumer is. Its nothing knew for companies selling HD, they have yet to understand anything about John Q Public.

Well, I think Toshiba should make a big-time short commercial AD in prime-time TV that would explain the HD DVD logo in detail for separating the real HD DVD from upconverting players. It really seems that the average consumer needs more education of the HD terms.

Well, I think Toshiba should make a big-time short commercial AD in prime-time TV that would explain the HD DVD logo in detail for separating the real HD DVD from upconverting players. It really seems that the average consumer needs more education of the HD terms.

Ahhh . . . it's worse than that. Many consumers think that just by sending a video signal to their HDTV - they are watching HD on their HDTV . . . especially when the program providers use a logo in the corner of the display that has "HD" in it.:(

I believe the upconverting players are going to die out as the HD-DVD players drop in price.

Exactly. The name Blu-ray means nothing in all this. All people can right now associate that with is "too expensive".

Upconverting players are selling because

..........drum roll please...........

THEY ARE CHEAP!!! Remember the whole thing I've been saying for a year now about price beats all?

Why do you think at $99 Toshiba sold 90,000 A2's? Why do you think they'll sell another load of A3's at $199 (or $169 if I can get my ass to Sears at 5am tomorrow. One another note.....5AM??? Is that what shopping has come too?)? Because it's AFFORDABLE!!!


Blu-ray could have been called anything, and will still be too expensive.

The boondoggle that is "HD" is only perpetuated by the widespread careless application of the term "HD" by CEM's and the media.


Heck, we can't even agree on this forum as to what constitutes 'Hi-Def' audio in the HDM world. If you start to talk to the average person about the difference between dts HD-MA, TrueHD, DD+, and ProLogic, their eyes will glaze over pretty much immediately.......

Exactly. The name Blu-ray means nothing in all this. All people can right now associate that with is "too expensive".

Upconverting players are selling because

..........drum roll please...........

THEY ARE CHEAP!!! Remember the whole thing I've been saying for a year now about price beats all?

Why do you think at $99 Toshiba sold 90,000 A2's? Why do you think they'll sell another load of A3's at $199 (or $169 if I can get my ass to Sears at 5am tomorrow. One another note.....5AM??? Is that what shopping has come too?)? Because it's AFFORDABLE!!!


Blu-ray could have been called anything, and will still be too expensive.

According to the Sears ad - it said "Sears and Sears.com" which leads me to believe that if you sit at your PC - when they open the ordering online - you can get a chance to buy one online as opposed to going there. There might even be a choice to pick it up instead of Sears shipping it to you.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/hda3ws2.jpg

Actually Sears is also doing sort of a "partial" pre-sale. On their website right now the A3 is $199. In the store it's $299.

I was hoping to pick it up at the store so I could give it to my parents tomorrow. Chanukah starts so early this year that giving it to them as their gift on Friday isn't going to be so bad.

If they don't have it, and Best Buy is out, I'll have my laptop and Sprint card with me, I'll get it online. :)

Exactly why Blu-ray was a smart choice for a name..

The problem is most stores I have been to have Sony and Samsung upconverting players labeled "Full HD" right next to the Blu-ray players with the same logo.:eek:

I totally disagree because the majority just want to watch movies or TV. Hey its very cool but you are going overboard in thinking that the public really cares about that kind of fluff.

Its a very simply idea....

People rent movies...
watch them....
send them back.....


All this content stuff is fine for a minority but its not the driving force behind any DVD (HD or SD) sold.


Never underestimate the interest of the people in their preferred actor or starlette. This is what drives all those movies with big "stars" and little substance.

I've never seen a movie with friends, without at least a couple of them asking about a particular actor/actress during the movie. Most people are more insterested in informations about the stars than the plot itself.

Give them the option to get the instant biography/filmography of an actor the very moment you see him on screen, with the push of a button, and they will LOVE the new formats.

Never underestimate the interest of the people in their preferred actor or starlette. This is what drives all those movies with big "stars" and little substance.

I've never seen a movie with friends, without at least a couple of them asking about a particular actor/actress during the movie. Most people are more insterested in informations about the stars than the plot itself.

Give them the option to get the instant biography/filmography of an actor the very moment you see him on screen, with the push of a button, and they will LOVE the new formats.


Better than that! Give them the ability to order the exact clothing they are wearing in the movie . . . U-Shop

I agree. I saw a regular $35 DVD player with "1080p resolution " silk screened onto the disk door!! If I didn't know better I'd swear it must be a HD player!

Joe and Mary Feedbag Buffet are never going to figure this stuff out.

LOL!!!!!

Joe and Mary Feedbag Buffet!!!!!

Made me do a spit take!:D

Better than that! Give them the ability to order the exact clothing they are wearing in the movie . . . U-Shop

That's the ulterior motive behind HDi/IME- to push yet more ads to you and sell you more junk you don't need.

The December 2007 issue of WSR reveals the true intent of the interactive features in the editor's column and an industry targeted IME ad in the same issue.

With the ads they're going to push to you, HDM discs ought to be free to compensate you for your eyeballs.

The studios will laugh all the way to the bank as the public pays them for discs loaded with interactive ads, ads paid for by the sponsors, plus the money you give them for the privilege of viewing them.

The industry ad for HD DVD IME in the WSR issue shows a Progressive Auto Insurance IME feature during a car chase scene, accumulating the damage value as the cars incur damage.

Exactly. The name Blu-ray means nothing in all this. All people can right now associate that with is "too expensive".

Upconverting players are selling because

..........drum roll please...........

THEY ARE CHEAP!!! Remember the whole thing I've been saying for a year now about price beats all?

Why do you think at $99 Toshiba sold 90,000 A2's? Why do you think they'll sell another load of A3's at $199 (or $169 if I can get my ass to Sears at 5am tomorrow. One another note.....5AM??? Is that what shopping has come too?)? Because it's AFFORDABLE!!!

No need to freeze your butt... A3 for 149.97 @ HHGregg, shipped...
http://www.hhgregg.com/ProductDetail.asp?SID=C391172FFFAC4A42BBAC2B733A38159C&ProductID=19834#page

That's the ulterior motive behind iHD/IME- to push yet more ads to you and sell you more junk you don't need.

The December 2007 issue of WSR reveals the true intent of the interactive features in the editor's column and an industry targeted iHD ad in the same issue.

With the ads they're going to push to you, HDM discs ought to be free to compensate you for your eyeballs.

But the public loves to shop!

And we already have the WB and Disney stores in practially every big mall in the country.

IMO - let the studios make money on this stuff. They already are. Just make it easier for the consumer (damn - there's that convinence thing again) to buy what they want.

How many HT owners here at AVS are using movie posters as wall hangings in their HT?

The fact that few of us would buy anything is not what the public wants, because we are not the "public." Or else AVS would have millions of members.

But the public loves to shop!

And we already have the WB and Disney stores in practially every big mall in the country.

IMO - let the studios make money on this stuff. They already are. Just make it easier for the consumer (damn - there's that convinence thing again) to buy what they want.

How many HT owners here at AVS are using movie posters as wall hangings in their HT?

The fact that few of us would buy anything is not what the public wants, because we are not the "public." Or else AVS would have millions of members.

You don't pay to visit/browse a Disney or WB store (at least not yet ;) ).

If the studios make money from the ads on HDM, you should be compensated via lower media costs or free discs.

Posters are considered collectibles if it was an original theatrical poster, and considered artwork for decorative purposes. Posters with rental or disc prices plastered over them (i.e. defaced with ads) are not valued by film collectors.

I think paid ads are the single biggest reason the studios wanted internet connectivity and interactive features on HDM set tops.

The Progressive Auto Insurance demo in the WSR ad appears to indicate they plan to hard code ad-centric IME features onto discs, without needing an internet connection.

Forced ads on DVDs were bad enough, though relatively easy to defeat or circumvent. IME is sneaky ads on steroids.

You don't pay to visit/browse a Disney or WB store (at least not yet ;) ).

If the studios make money from the ads on HDM, you should be compensated via lower media costs or free discs.

Posters are considered collectibles if it was an original theatrical poster, and considered artwork for decorative purposes. Posters with rental or disc prices plastered over them (i.e. defaced with ads) are not valued by film collectors.

I think paid ads are the single biggest reason the studios wanted internet connectivity and interactive features on HDM set tops.

The Progressive Auto Insurance demo in the WSR ad appears to indicate they plan to hard code ad-centric IME features onto discs, without needing an internet connection.

Forced ads on DVDs were bad enough, though relatively easy to defeat or circumvent. IME is sneaky ads on steroids.

So how come the theater owners haven't lowered the price of a movie ticket? - I see a bunch of ads not only waiting for the movie to start but before the trailers.

I was alluding to posters as a choice given at the U-Shop store. You could see the lobby poster and order it in one or two sizes depending on what your need is.

Advertising is a way of life (duh) - see many forums that don't have ads?

So how come the theater owners haven't lowered the price of a movie ticket? - I see a bunch of ads not only waiting for the movie to start but before the trailers.

I was alluding to posters as a choice given at the U-Shop store. You could see the lobby poster and order it in one or two sizes depending on what your need is.

Advertising is a way of life (duh) - see many forums that don't have ads?

Theaters have been sued over the ad issue
http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2003/02/20/news/local_illinois/6504a7237ae31d4486256cd2007c2118.txt

We don't pay to be on these forums. The ads help pay for forum bandwidth, a fair trade.

HDM ads will use my bandwidth- video (bitrate) bandwidth, mental bandwidth, visual bandwidth, my internet bandwitdth- without compensating me.

Hehe, good point, actually on the latest Sony TV models I saw a sticker saying "BluRay Compatible".





Crap! I just bought a Toshiba A3 HD player, and I wanted a Sony Lcd to go with that . Now what..;)


Djoel

I believe the upconverting players are going to die out as the HD-DVD players drop in price.
Why would manufacturers that have no HD DVD players stop selling upconverting players if HD DVD player prices drop ?
These manufacturers of upconverting players will sell these items until they see a significant drop in sells.
Upconverting is still new to J6P and the price is reasonable($39 starting price) to see "Full 1080p HD" using their existing $5 DVD's.

I still believe the biggest obstacle is the $19-35 price for HDM discs.
As we've seen with recent BOGO sales, people buy in mass quantities when the price is right.


On the note about using the Ethernet port to chat with people on line and other sorts about the movie, is the HDM layers now going to get a keyboard/mouse ?
Heck, we might as well go back to buying HTPC's.

Also, how many average people have high speed Internet in their living room next to their AV equipment ? From looking at the HD DVD FW update threads, it looks slim and these people(AVS member) are enthusiasts.

Exactly. The name Blu-ray means nothing in all this. All people can right now associate that with is "too expensive".

Upconverting players are selling because

..........drum roll please...........

THEY ARE CHEAP!!! Remember the whole thing I've been saying for a year now about price beats all?

Why do you think at $99 Toshiba sold 90,000 A2's? Why do you think they'll sell another load of A3's at $199 (or $169 if I can get my ass to Sears at 5am tomorrow. One another note.....5AM??? Is that what shopping has come too?)? Because it's AFFORDABLE!!!


Blu-ray could have been called anything, and will still be too expensive.

I agree low prices are helping selll HDM players.
Even the PS3 is selling beyond expected due to the new $399 model.
IIRC they sold 100,000+ PS3's the first week or two.

I was at BestBuy last night and they have an area with their HD DVD and Blu-ray players stacked next to their demos/endcaps. They also had triple the stock on the floor of upconverting players starting at $39, which had those gold stickers, "Full 1080p HD."

The A3 is $199 at BB.
The BDP-S300 is $399 - 100 BB gift card = $299
My local target just put in an actual Blu-ray endcap this week.
Yes, one with a 42" LCD with a demo playing at the endcap of the TV/DVD section with Blu-ray titles.

Now, when J6P plops down $1000 for his HDTV, what will he do ?
Spend $39 to play his entire DVD collection at "Full 1080p HD" or buy one of those $199-399 players that require $19-35 discs.

Why would manufacturers that have no HD DVD players stop selling upconverting players if HD DVD player prices drop ?
Who said they would?:confused:

Why would manufacturers that have no HD DVD players stop selling upconverting players if HD DVD player prices drop ?
These manufacturers of upconverting players will sell these items until they see a significant drop in sells.
Upconverting is still new to J6P and the price is reasonable($39 starting price) to see "Full 1080p HD" using their existing $5 DVD's.

I still believe the biggest obstacle is the $19-35 price for HDM discs.
As we've seen with recent BOGO sales, people buy in mass quantities when the price is right.


On the note about using the Ethernet port to chat with people on line and other sorts about the movie, is the HDM layers now going to get a keyboard/mouse ?
Heck, we might as well go back to buying HTPC's.

Also, how many average people have high speed Internet in their living room next to their AV equipment ? From looking at the HD DVD FW update threads, it looks slim and these people(AVS member) are enthusiasts.

My A2 has a USB Port on the front. It says in the manual; "For future use."

Who said they would?:confused:

If you look at the post I quoted, they said upconverting players would "die out" due to lower HD DVD player prices, which I assume they are saying upconverting players would stop selling. This may be true in several years when HDM players are the norm but not anytime in the immediate future.

Exactly. The name Blu-ray means nothing in all this. All people can right now associate that with is "too expensive".

Upconverting players are selling because

..........drum roll please...........

THEY ARE CHEAP!!! Remember the whole thing I've been saying for a year now about price beats all?

Why do you think at $99 Toshiba sold 90,000 A2's? Why do you think they'll sell another load of A3's at $199 (or $169 if I can get my ass to Sears at 5am tomorrow. One another note.....5AM??? Is that what shopping has come too?)? Because it's AFFORDABLE!!!


Blu-ray could have been called anything, and will still be too expensive.

Only 26 posts for a BR bashing.

J6P is clueless, and it will never change because the people selling the stuff are only slightly less clueless.

I agree low prices are helping selll HDM players.
Even the PS3 is selling beyond expected due to the new $399 model.
IIRC they sold 100,000+ PS3's the first week or two.

I was at BestBuy last night and they have an area with their HD DVD and Blu-ray players stacked next to their demos/endcaps. They also had triple the stock on the floor of upconverting players starting at $39, which had those gold stickers, "Full 1080p HD."

The A3 is $199 at BB.
The BDP-S300 is $399 - 100 BB gift card = $299
My local target just put in an actual Blu-ray endcap this week.
Yes, one with a 42" LCD with a demo playing at the endcap of the TV/DVD section with Blu-ray titles.

Now, when J6P plops down $1000 for his HDTV, what will he do ?
Spend $39 to play his entire DVD collection at "Full 1080p HD" or buy one of those $199-399 players that require $19-35 discs.

+1

Only 26 posts for a BR bashing.

J6P is clueless, and it will never change because the people selling the stuff are only slightly less clueless.

Well J6P has figured out not only how to set up his PC but also how to get connected to the Internet.

If you look at the post I quoted, they said upconverting players would "die out" due to lower HD DVD player prices, which I assume they are saying upconverting players would stop selling. This may be true in several years when HDM players are the norm but not anytime in the immediate future.

So, you actually agree with him.

So, you actually agree with him.
Not in the immediate future but in several years, it's possible.
The $199 price drop won't stop upconverting players from selling.
I mean, VCR's are still being sold today aren't they, in which some cost the same price as DVD players.

Well J6P has figured out not only how to set up his PC but also how to get connected to the Internet.

Off of the top of my head roughly 40% of the people I know don't have a PC. And half of the ones that do use dial-up.

*shrug*

Not in the immediate future but in several years, it's possible.So, yes.
I mean, VCR's are still being sold today aren't they.....
DVD players don't play VHS tapes and the ones that do are much more expensive than a cheap DVD player. HD DVD players, on the other hand, do upscale DVDs (a desirable feature for some reason) and cost just a little more. Seems like a sure bet to me if HD DVD survives, and may be part of the reason it does survive.

Well J6P has figured out not only how to set up his PC but also how to get connected to the Internet.

Sadly they have not, as that is what I used to do for a living.

Happy Turkey day fellow AVS geeks/addicts:D
Figured I'd see you guys here today:rolleyes:

Off of the top of my head roughly 40% of the people I know don't have a PC. And half of the ones that do use dial-up.

*shrug*

Stats from the CEA (for the USA):

78% of all households have the internet

82% of all households have a DVD player

98% of all households have a TV set.

Agree 100%. It will NOT be the better PQ and AQ that attracts the masses to HDM. It will be the special features like PIP and WE.

Disney just made a statement about their use for WE concerning Sleeping Beauty. Here is the Scenerio they painted:

"Just imagine that every Friday at 7PM, through your HDM player - you will be able to have a live chat with the Princess - talk with her, ask her questions. The possibilities are endless"

Paramount, WB, Toshiba and MS have created a consurtium (Sp Ck) to explore how to use the IF/WE feature of HDM.

And profile 1.1/PIP is not the only use for Dual Stream Video.

We are on the forefront of expanding what the 5" shiny disc can do. We may find 5 years from now that better PQ and AQ are 2nd or even 3rd on the list of why people bought into HDM.

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

lee another great post
its been said but hdm players are going to have to do more then play movies.
i think lee just said that.

I will reiterate my opinion on the HDM marketing.

We, early adopters, are essentially beta testing the gear for Tosh, Sony and the like.
I am happy to do so.

But I don't think either CEM wants J6P to get home with his shiny new A2 and Transformers, only to find that he needs some sort of firmware upgrade (latin to J6P)

By next holiday, I <imagine> that the CEMs will have all firmware/vers. worked out, to the effect that any disc will play without a hitch, with no need for firmware updates.

That will be when the MAJOR push will occur IMO, there will be ~400-500 titles available from both camps by then as well as the firmware/vers. thing worked out.

J6P wants plug and play for movies. CEMs know that early adopters will have no problem downloading new firmware, and even talking about it in forums such as this.

But I imagine many A2s will be returned to Wally World because of the lack of plug and play. Same for BD players, with the whole 1.0/1.1/Live thingy.

This will/would sour many customers on these new formats. Hence the little to no marketing push YET.

so why doesnt all manufactors stop making upconvert players
and end some confussion.
looking back they kind of cut off there own toes making those players in the first place.
have a fire sale and get rid of them.

Let's face it, HD-DVD was a terrible choice for naming. It doesn't roll of your tongue and it retains the DVD, which doesn't differentiate itself from regular DVD that much.

Now....Betamax...that's just awesome!!!!!:D

VHS does sound easier than Vertical Helical Scan doesn't it?

Honey, lets drop by the mall and pick us up this brand new Vertical Helical Scan movie player box :D

Stats from the CEA (for the USA):

78% of all households have the internet

82% of all households have a DVD player

98% of all households have a TV set.

the "78% have internet", is that actually connected to a computer or just available? does that 78% actually own a computer in their homes?

i only got computer hooked up 2 months ago but b'band/dial-up/etc cable and phone line based 'net service has been available in my home for a few years here.

so why doesnt all manufactors stop making upconvert players
and end some confussion.
looking back they kind of cut off there own toes making those players in the first place.
have a fire sale and get rid of them.

Look at who makes the upconverting players.

Look at who makes HD DVD players.

Look at who makes Blu-Ray players.

They don't intersect often. (Toshiba does have a upscaling DVD player, but it is priced higher than $98 at this point). The Upconverting players are made by largely noname brands. The progressive players are entry level at $25 for most of this year even without a sale. You can even pick a $25 deinterlacing DVD player from supermarkets in the suburbs,

the "78% have internet", is that actually connected to a computer or just available? does that 78% actually own a computer in their homes?

i only got computer hooked up 2 months ago but b'band/dial-up/etc cable and phone line based 'net service has been available in my home for a few years here.

I am sure there is not clarification.

But understanding how to surf the net is much different than understanding the many different HD options, cable, sat, OTA, upconverting player, HD player, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, component connections, dvi connections, hdmi connections.

Hell, how many HDTVs do you think are connected to their DVD player with a composite cable?

Oh yeah, and then if someone figures all of that out, they have to see a noticable difference from DVD.


Yikes

The problem is most stores I have been to have Sony and Samsung upconverting players labeled "Full HD" right next to the Blu-ray players with the same logo.:eek:

Exactly. How can anyone claim that is not confusing?

Joe Blow can buy a $29 "1080p Full HD" player that actually *isn't* "real" HD? Huh? Wuz? Zomg!

Now that there is more money to be made by HD DVD players over upconverting players, I'm hoping a decent chunk of sales people will push them and let people know the differences. Let's hope, anyway.

My mother tries to be tech independent and despite my instance, buys electronics without talking to me first.

I've got plenty of stories that date back to her Sony Betamax in which involve me slapping my forehead and yelling "MOM! Why didn't you talk to me first?".

Well a few months ago she bought an upscaling dvd player thinking it could play HD DVD's. My brother tried to talk her out of it but she was very stubborn and bought it anyways. She was a little frustrated when she realized what she had really bought. But she was mad that she felt "tricked" by the upconverters and not mad at HD DVD. SHe didn't blame HD DVD for not playing in the player, she blamed the player. So she does about 5 minutes of research and discovers which players actually play them. She then felt more dumb that she didn't look for "HD DVD" on the upconverters product description.

So finally she calls me and asks if she should get the A2 or A3. I informed her for her it didn't really matter, but I said I would buy her one. Got the BestBuy4Business deal on an A2 for $89. They went out of stock after I ordered so they filled the order with an A3. Today my brother told me she just went on a mad HD DVD buying spree.


So yes I think average people will be confused at first. But like PC's, I-Pods, Game Consoles, PDA's, Digital Cameras ect.. people will learn and adjust their expectations. It might be a bumpy start, but this won't be that much of a hinderance.

I'm sure at one point in history a nervous ninny declared the masses would never drive cars, or pay for cable tv.

Have anyone elses posts magically disappeared from this thread with no justification?

Edit: Nevermind. I think my browser malfunctioned on a reply and didn't post. Grrrr.

so why doesnt all manufactors stop making upconvert players
and end some confussion.
looking back they kind of cut off there own toes making those players in the first place.
have a fire sale and get rid of them.

You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.:D

This issue of UP DVD players is a real issue - a mountain - no mole hill. Because everyone one of those UP DVD player owners . . . has an HDTV or else the UP DVD player is worthless.

Are they the next segment to get into the HD market? They wanted better PQ or else they would not have bought the player they did. And they needed an HDMI cable so this will not be foreign to them.

It would be a great market to aim HDM at. They fit the bill nicely - they have an HDTV and they wanted better PQ. Just need to make one more step;)

You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.:D
i understand that lee but dont you think at this point in time they could at least stop making them and let stock run out.
at least that will take some time to sell off what they have.
in the mean time these dumb stores could start pushing hdm players and tell them they also upconvert sd dvds. what do you think?

i understand that lee but dont you think at this point in time they could at least stop making them and let stock run out.
at least that will take some time to sell off what they have.
in the mean time these dumb stores could start pushing hdm players and tell them they also upconvert sd dvds. what do you think?

If you are making money on a product - you don't pull it. Especially in the fact that your consumer will have to start buying more expensive movies . . . with a selection that is miniscule to DVD. Less than 1000 titles versus 77,000.

He can buy DVD's for $5.00. Plenty to choose from for $7.50 - good titles too. What is the cheapest HD title? (please do not include BOGO's becuase both Target and Wal-Mart have walls of movies for $7.50 or less ALL the time - every day.)

Well crap, Lee. Sears and Best Buy are already sold out on their websites of the A3. So unless I can find one at their store in the morning, I'm going to end up having to snag one from Amazon or something.

Once again proves my point. At $199 it seems like stores can't keep the A3 in stock. That's the price they all need to be at.

Well crap, Lee. Sears and Best Buy are already sold out on their websites of the A3. So unless I can find one at their store in the morning, I'm going to end up having to snag one from Amazon or something.

Once again proves my point. At $199 it seems like stores can't keep the A3 in stock. That's the price they all need to be at.

I got one of the Amazon A3's with the 10 movies @ $199 for my son for Xmas. I just found out that they lowered to the price to $159.99. I ordered mine Monday - friend of mine did the same thing - he called Amazon and they credited his account for $40 difference. I am going to do this tomorrow - need my Mom's help cause we used her CC and Ship to address because I already got 3 HD DVD's with my A2 that I bought Jan. 2007 - only one rebate per household.

Hmmmm . . . 1/20/07 - paid $379.88 with 3 movies. 10 months later - $159/$199 with 10 movies. . . . :eek:

If you are making money on a product - you don't pull it. Especially in the fact that your consumer will have to start buying more expensive movies . . . with a selection that is miniscule to DVD. Less than 1000 titles versus 77,000.

He can buy DVD's for $5.00. Plenty to choose from for $7.50 - good titles too. What is the cheapest HD title? (please do not include BOGO's becuase both Target and Wal-Mart have walls of movies for $7.50 or less ALL the time - every day.)

good points lee thanks

The marketing buzzwords and excessive use of "HD" thrown on everything are certain to cause confusion with the masses. It is not as simple as it used to be. The last couple of years have been very chaotic/evolutionary.

With TVs, the old standard that nearly everybody had were CRTs. Over the past couple of years, CRTs are fading. New TVs could be EDTV or HDTV with different pixel display resolutions and different inputs accepted and different technologies like plasma vs lcd vs dlp vs projector with 1080i vs 1080p vs 720p vs 1080p24 vs "Full HD 1080p" vs 1366x768 vs 1280x720 vs 1920x1080 etc.

With the players, the masses used composite or *gasp* 75 ohm coax F connectors with their vhs players. DVD players introduced the masses to composite, and a few people used s-video. Now we have ultra cheapo dvd players, upconverting dvd players with "HD" marketing slapped all over them, and genuine BD or HD DVD players. Now we have HDMI connections, component connections, composite connections, s-video connections, internet connections, usb connections, etc.

It is a lot of crap to wade through, and a lot of changes in CE devices and connections.

The masses are guaranteed to be confused unless they do a lot of homework. The chaos of Black Friday works against this as people are looking for cheap stuff or good deals. There are a lot of choices out there, and sometimes I wonder how much is too much.

The marketing buzzwords and excessive use of "HD" thrown on everything are certain to cause confusion with the masses. It is not as simple as it used to be. The last couple of years have been very chaotic/evolutionary.

With TVs, the old standard that nearly everybody had were CRTs. Over the past couple of years, CRTs are fading. New TVs could be EDTV or HDTV with different pixel display resolutions and different inputs accepted and different technologies like plasma vs lcd vs dlp vs projector with 1080i vs 1080p vs 720p vs 1080p24 vs "Full HD 1080p" vs 1366x768 vs 1280x720 vs 1920x1080 etc.

With the players, the masses used composite or *gasp* 75 ohm coax F connectors with their vhs players. DVD players introduced the masses to composite, and a few people used s-video. Now we have ultra cheapo dvd players, upconverting dvd players with "HD" marketing slapped all over them, and genuine BD or HD DVD players. Now we have HDMI connections, component connections, composite connections, s-video connections, internet connections, usb connections, etc.

It is a lot of crap to wade through, and a lot of changes in CE devices and connections.

The masses are guaranteed to be confused unless they do a lot of homework. The chaos of Black Friday works against this as people are looking for cheap stuff or good deals. There are a lot of choices out there, and sometimes I wonder how much is too much.

Agreed - we have turned a relatively simple process into something you literally have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand.

But those HD DVD logos on a player box are very large. So what if any confusion will there be for people buying one?

If the new owner reads the manual - they should have no trouble at least attaching the player to their TV or HT system.

The only confusion I have read about was people buying HD DVD's and trying to play them in their DVD player.

I got one of the Amazon A3's with the 10 movies @ $199 for my son for Xmas. I just found out that they lowered to the price to $159.99. I ordered mine Monday - friend of mine did the same thing - he called Amazon and they credited his account for $40 difference. I am going to do this tomorrow - need my Mom's help cause we used her CC and Ship to address because I already got 3 HD DVD's with my A2 that I bought Jan. 2007 - only one rebate per household.

Hmmmm . . . 1/20/07 - paid $379.88 with 3 movies. 10 months later - $159/$199 with 10 movies. . . . :eek:

Well. Look, if you want mass adoption, you have to consider as an early adopter you are instantly going to depreciate. I paid $199 for my 360 add-on the day it came out, and I got King Kong. Now it's $179 and below and however many free movies. It is what it is.

So my wife, who is the best person on the planet (aren't they all guys?) actually got up and went out to find an A3 before work. At 5:15am Sears had blown through their entire stack except for one that had a beat-up box. So she ended up getting one from Best Buy for $199.

Well. Look, if you want mass adoption, you have to consider as an early adopter you are instantly going to depreciate. I paid $199 for my 360 add-on the day it came out, and I got King Kong. Now it's $179 and below and however many free movies. It is what it is.

So my wife, who is the best person on the planet (aren't they all guys?) actually got up and went out to find an A3 before work. At 5:15am Sears had blown through their entire stack except for one that had a beat-up box. So she ended up getting one from Best Buy for $199.

Not complaining . . . read SIG:D

Just amazed at how fast the price has fallen. I did predict 10 movies by Q4 for the freebee back in March.

I just paid $97.00 for a A3 at sears...had them price match a store that does not exist...

I just paid $97.00 for a A3 at sears...had them price match a store that does not exist...

Hmm don't think I agree with doing that. Getting a store to price match a great deal is nice but intentionally deceiving the store by making up a fake store to match with is just not right.

>>VHS does sound easier than Vertical Helical Scan doesn't it?<<

Actually, VHS stands for "Video Home System."

Better than that! Give them the ability to order the exact clothing they are wearing in the movie . . . U-Shop

The scary thing is, there are sights up in the Far East selling the school uniforms from Battle Royale.

Steve W

Exactly. How can anyone claim that is not confusing?

Joe Blow can buy a $29 "1080p Full HD" player that actually *isn't* "real" HD? Huh? Wuz? Zomg!

I don't think its even just joe six pack or whatever name you want to use that is confused.

I have a friend who is a medical doctor. Obviously not an idiot. He is also totally confused by upconverting DVD players. I literally had to convince him that he did not own an HD DVD player. I've now gone over it with him twice, and I still think he doesn't quite fully get it.

Moreover, what most people don't realize is that whether or not they buy an upconverting DVD player, if they have the typical fixed pixel display (50 inch plasma for example, which displays at 720p) - -they DON'T need an upconverting DVD player, as regardless, the TV will convert to its fixed 720p display.

I don't think its even just joe six pack or whatever name you want to use that is confused.

I have a friend who is a medical doctor. Obviously not an idiot. He is also totally confused by upconverting DVD players. I literally had to convince him that he did not own an HD DVD player. I've now gone over it with him twice, and I still think he doesn't quite fully get it.

Moreover, what most people don't realize is that whether or not they buy an upconverting DVD player, if they have the typical fixed pixel display (50 inch plasma for example, which displays at 720p) - -they DON'T need an upconverting DVD player, as regardless, the TV will convert to its fixed 720p display.

This is a little disingenuous. Some scalers are better than others. The PS3 does a better job of upconverting than the oppo 971 that I had previously, and both to a much better job than the scaler in my projector.

This is a little disingenuous. Some scalers are better than others. The PS3 does a better job of upconverting than the oppo 971 that I had previously, and both to a much better job than the scaler in my projector.

True -- but I wasn't saying which device had the better scaler. My point is that ALL standard def DVDs are upscaled to the fixed display's native resolution.

And joe six pack doesn't realize that and thinks he NEEDS an upconverting player. Remember Joe Six pack will likely not notice that much difference in picture quality whether his set does the scaling or the DVD player does it.

I made a post several months ago saying this was going to be a huge fiasco and was told I was wrong.

Not looking for vindication, just restating the fact that I think the format war and the attitudes of the major players are wrong.

Off of the top of my head roughly 40% of the people I know don't have a PC. And half of the ones that do use dial-up.


Wow! Seriously?

As I said many times, HD is NOT the killer app of HD.

IMO the killer app will be the option to get contextual IMDB.COM informations via web during the movie (about actors, directors, cinematographer, writers, spoofs, trivia, stars gossip, and so on.).

For example, when I see a new actor/actress in a scene, I want to know (just pushing a button):

- who is he/she?
- what movies has he/she done in the past? Can I buy them?
- what movies is he/she doing now?
- the latest gossip about him/her
- ...and so on.

I seriously fail to understand how anyone can seriously think that the video quality is NOT the main reason that people are buying bluray and HD-DVD.

Otherwise there is little reason to not stick with dvd.

Special features have never been the driving point behind adoption. Quality of the presentation is.

Agree 100%. It will NOT be the better PQ and AQ that attracts the masses to HDM. It will be the special features like PIP and WE.

Disney just made a statement about their use for WE concerning Sleeping Beauty. Here is the Scenerio they painted:

"Just imagine that every Friday at 7PM, through your HDM player - you will be able to have a live chat with the Princess - talk with her, ask her questions. The possibilities are endless"

Paramount, WB, Toshiba and MS have created a consurtium (Sp Ck) to explore how to use the IF/WE feature of HDM.

And profile 1.1/PIP is not the only use for Dual Stream Video.

We are on the forefront of expanding what the 5" shiny disc can do. We may find 5 years from now that better PQ and AQ are 2nd or even 3rd on the list of why people bought into HDM.

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

Ok, I guess that makes two people that think special features are the main reason to go to HDM....

Somethings I just dont understand...

Somethings I just dont understand...

;)

For us it's the quality, but for the masses it may not be.

Some more BF observations:

I went to Best Buy during lunch (it was PACKED!) to check out HDM prices. I could not find ANY HDMs on sale! :confused::mad::(
It's great that HD players are finally starting to attract people, but I think most people won't be buying many movies at those prices! Even the few that have the cheapest price at $25 is still too much.

I walked out with 0 HDMs.

Still holding at over 1 year of HD DVD ownership and only 3 HD DVDs. :(

Some more BF observations:

I went to Best Buy during lunch (it was PACKED!) to check out HDM prices. I could not find ANY HDMs on sale! :confused::mad::(
It's great that HD players are finally starting to attract people, but I think most people won't be buying many movies at those prices! Even the few that have the cheapest price at $25 is still too much.

I walked out with 0 HDMs.

Still holding at over 1 year of HD DVD ownership and only 3 HD DVDs. :(

Go to Fry's or Amazon!

Just got finished reading a thread about BF on another popular forum related to DVR's etc....

One person posted that they plan to buy the HD DVD player Wal MArt has for $29...several folks said he must have typed that wrong...he said "No, it's $29 at WM..here's the ad..."

Well you guessed it...it was something like a Magnovox UPCONVERT to 1080P standard old DVD player...he was convinced it was hi-def DVD until a few chimed in and exlained what he was really looking at.

Other folks even seemed confused a bit since it says it DOES convert to 1080P and "isn't that considered hi-def?".

Folks...I'm getting more and more convinced that the masses are never gonna catch onto HDM if the mass retailers tout "upconverts to HD quality" with EVERY SD player they now sell...the masses will do like the poster mentioned..go out, buy the player, and sit back and enjoy all his current movies THINKING he just landed a great deal on a "hi-def" DVD player....

Face it folks..it's happening and it's gonna happen all season long..and beyond...I think just the forum world for the most part will be the ones buying HDM and just upgrading every now and then to keep the sales numbers fluctuating...

Sad for HDM, but I think unless HDM gets it's sh*t together, nobody (ok mabe some) outside this world we call HT related forums will be about the only substantial ustomer HDM has around.

Another reason why both formats will stay a niche market and Video On Demand will take over.

This is what this format war has created a fractured market. What I find so interesting is that even the Blu-Ray camp is short changing their own products by shlocking thier own "Fulll HD 1080P" players out in the isles next to the $5.99 bargin bin DVD's. Sony included. If there was one format all along then it would have allowed just one marketing push. No we get this crap, Blu-Ray compatible TV's WTH. Sony must be asking itself what monster did it create. Unfortunately you slap the letters HD on any pile of crap in the box the public will believe it. Thanks Sony, thanks for nothing don't deny it I saw your end cap just today ($49 HD upconvert player). Good luck trying to move your PS3's next to Maganox's $29 "Full HD 1080P player". What goes around comes around.

Amazon has a buy 2 get one free promo for HDDVD.

Go to Fry's or Amazon!

Yes.......Amazon.

(We don't have Fry's [Frye's?])

My mother tries to be tech independent and despite my instance, buys electronics without talking to me first.

I've got plenty of stories that date back to her Sony Betamax in which involve me slapping my forehead and yelling "MOM! Why didn't you talk to me first?".

Well a few months ago she bought an upscaling dvd player thinking it could play HD DVD's. My brother tried to talk her out of it but she was very stubborn and bought it anyways. She was a little frustrated when she realized what she had really bought. But she was mad that she felt "tricked" by the upconverters and not mad at HD DVD. SHe didn't blame HD DVD for not playing in the player, she blamed the player. So she does about 5 minutes of research and discovers which players actually play them. She then felt more dumb that she didn't look for "HD DVD" on the upconverters product description.

So finally she calls me and asks if she should get the A2 or A3. I informed her for her it didn't really matter, but I said I would buy her one. Got the BestBuy4Business deal on an A2 for $89. They went out of stock after I ordered so they filled the order with an A3. Today my brother told me she just went on a mad HD DVD buying spree.


So yes I think average people will be confused at first. But like PC's, I-Pods, Game Consoles, PDA's, Digital Cameras ect.. people will learn and adjust their expectations. It might be a bumpy start, but this won't be that much of a hinderance.

I'm sure at one point in history a nervous ninny declared the masses would never drive cars, or pay for cable tv.

daily trivia: frank burns (aka larry linville) used to call peeps 'nervous ninnies'!

Hehe, good point, actually on the latest Sony TV models I saw a sticker saying "BluRay Compatible".

Surely that is even more confusing, people will think that only 'Blu-ray Compatible' TVs will work with Blu-ray players.

Let's not forget the constant renaming going on : it's not Blu-Ray anymore, it's Blu-Ray Hi-def. It's not profile 1.1 anymore, it's Final Profile 1.0 - Bonus View.

No wonder only HT nerds like us keep track : between all the HDTV resolutions, audio codecs, connectors (component, HDMI 1.2, 1.3), two formats, and the renaming, who in their right mind will go through the learning process just so they can buy more expensive software for what they judge at best an incremental improvement ?

I'm more convinced now than ever that HDM is headed for niche status at best. Even retailers seem to have lost faith in HDM if you look at the almost complete absence of deals on HD/BR players and HD/BR titles this black friday...

Went to Ultimate Elec. this morning (11am) and found plenty of HD DVD and Blu players sitting collecting dust...the two people in the dvd area were staring at SD DVD players that were on sale.

As far as the OP's concern . . .

Don't be - at least at the Best Buys in the L.A. Area. The shoppers aren't buying either.:(

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=56731

Let's not forget the constant renaming going on : it's not Blu-Ray anymore, it's Blu-Ray Hi-def. It's not profile 1.1 anymore, it's Final Profile 1.0 - Bonus View.

Don't forget that first it was "Blu-ray Disc," but people decided 3 syllables was just too much to handle.

Frankly though, I think it's just too early to be concerned. They just need more time. You can already buy the discs at places like Wal-Mart, which puts it ahead of laserdisc right there. They're just not high volume enough yet to be huge BF deals.

My experiences today were no different than any other day... in under 5 minutes, I overheard "No, we just sold the last one [Black Friday JVC plasma] but that one was only 1080i..." "Well, the problem with the PS3 is that it doesn't upconvert" "Blu-ray has WAY more available titles"

Just more of the same crap. I avoid going into electronics stores these days - it just ends up pissing me off. I used to correct them... but it's just a losing battle at this point. I just don't care at any more.

Target had an amazing sale on standard DVD's today. Tons of titles for 3-6 bucks. 300 two disk was $5.98. People were all over them like animals.

The HD section was all max priced...no one was buying those :)

It is going to be a long long long time to convince the masses that they should forgo
$5 DVD's for disks priced $29.98.

I agree. I saw a regular $35 DVD player with "1080p resolution " silk screened onto the disk door!! If I didn't know better I'd swear it must be a HD player!

Joe and Mary Feedbag Buffet are never going to figure this stuff out.

Ouch... Isn't that a little harsh??

Ouch... Isn't that a little harsh??

What? Feedbag-Buffet is a hyphenated last name. Womens lib and all that jazz.

Ouch... Isn't that a little harsh??

Are you kidding? When we went to Paris earlier this year, we didn't see grossly fat (or even merely fat) people until we hit the airport back in the states.

You ever been to a "feedbag buffet"? If you want people to pile their plates with greasy, fatty foods, just make sure the words "buffet" and "All you care to eat" are in your ads.

This is the first generation that is not going to live longer than their parents.:o

Wonder how many people with up-convert players are mistakenly buying HD DVD and BD thinking that their machines are capable.

Though I agree it is probably less of a problem for BD since it is a totally different name.

Heard by me today, on the PA, at Wal-Mart, "Attention shoppers we have the HD-DVD 80GB Sony PS3 for $499 and you'll also get 10 Blu-Ray movies for free."

Don't forget that first it was "Blu-ray Disc," but people decided 3 syllables was just too much to handle.

Frankly though, I think it's just too early to be concerned. They just need more time. You can already buy the discs at places like Wal-Mart, which puts it ahead of laserdisc right there. They're just not high volume enough yet to be huge BF deals.

Amen.

This talk of doom and gloom is MASSIVELY premature. In 5 years, if we are at the same point, then i'll listen, but when most of the country is just starting their entry into the HD arena, we've got a lot of HD penetration yet to be had... Prices on the software will drop and people will start buying.

It's just a matter of time and a little patience.

2007 was never the year of the HDM breakout, but with a few decent marketing moves and some common sense, 2008 , I predict will be a great year for HDM.

Amen.

This talk of doom and gloom is MASSIVELY premature. In 5 years, if we are at the same point, then i'll listen, but when most of the country is just starting their entry into the HD arena, we've got a lot of HD penetration yet to be had... Prices on the software will drop and people will start buying.

It's just a matter of time and a little patience.

2007 was never the year of the HDM breakout, but with a few decent marketing moves and some common sense, 2008 , I predict will be a great year for HDM.

Let's hope.

Just got finished reading a thread about BF on another popular forum related to DVR's etc....

One person posted that they plan to buy the HD DVD player Wal MArt has for $29...several folks said he must have typed that wrong...he said "No, it's $29 at WM..here's the ad..."

Well you guessed it...it was something like a Magnovox UPCONVERT to 1080P standard old DVD player...he was convinced it was hi-def DVD until a few chimed in and exlained what he was really looking at.

Other folks even seemed confused a bit since it says it DOES convert to 1080P and "isn't that considered hi-def?".

Folks...I'm getting more and more convinced that the masses are never gonna catch onto HDM if the mass retailers tout "upconverts to HD quality" with EVERY SD player they now sell...the masses will do like the poster mentioned..go out, buy the player, and sit back and enjoy all his current movies THINKING he just landed a great deal on a "hi-def" DVD player....

Face it folks..it's happening and it's gonna happen all season long..and beyond...I think just the forum world for the most part will be the ones buying HDM and just upgrading every now and then to keep the sales numbers fluctuating...

Sad for HDM, but I think unless HDM gets it's sh*t together, nobody (ok mabe some) outside this world we call HT related forums will be about the only substantial ustomer HDM has around.

I have to chime in here... I was over at a neighbor's house Friday night and they said the exact same thing: "We bought an HD player at WalMart today for $29!!" ...and showed me the Magnavox.

I was very polite and explained to them it was not an "HD" player but a 1080p upconverting DVD player. They said it will play movies at "Full HD 1080p", the same resolution as their 1080p HDTV, so it's HD.

Oh well... as long as they are happy.

Agree 100%. It will NOT be the better PQ and AQ that attracts the masses to HDM. It will be the special features like PIP and WE.

Disney just made a statement about their use for WE concerning Sleeping Beauty. Here is the Scenerio they painted:

"Just imagine that every Friday at 7PM, through your HDM player - you will be able to have a live chat with the Princess - talk with her, ask her questions. The possibilities are endless"

Paramount, WB, Toshiba and MS have created a consurtium (Sp Ck) to explore how to use the IF/WE feature of HDM.

And profile 1.1/PIP is not the only use for Dual Stream Video.

We are on the forefront of expanding what the 5" shiny disc can do. We may find 5 years from now that better PQ and AQ are 2nd or even 3rd on the list of why people bought into HDM.

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

I think that, given current technologies and the fact that the computer just does it better than a standalone HD player, the studios are grossly overestimating public interest in movie interactivity.

For every 10 hours of movies I watch, I'm lucky if I care to spend more than 20 minutes watching special features -- and I'm a videophile. My parents could care less.

Amen.

This talk of doom and gloom is MASSIVELY premature. In 5 years, if we are at the same point, then i'll listen, but when most of the country is just starting their entry into the HD arena, we've got a lot of HD penetration yet to be had... Prices on the software will drop and people will start buying.

It's just a matter of time and a little patience.

2007 was never the year of the HDM breakout, but with a few decent marketing moves and some common sense, 2008 , I predict will be a great year for HDM.
In five years?????:eek::eek:

HDM doesn't have so much time to spare. 2007 was actually the year of the HDM breakout, one look at the release lists is more than enough to prove that plus we have cheap players for everyone's budget and needs (from 399$ ps3s to 98$ Toshiba players).

I doubt that studios will continue to lose money on HDM for much longer. DVD was doing great in its second year and that's without a new playstation supporting it. If we continue to see similar apathy towards HDM in 2008 then i'd say that high-def movies are doomed.

I believe that the reasons for this are:
1)The format war. Even though competition has brought prices down there are still many disadvantages coming from the format war. From people being afraid to choose one to no unified marketing efford from everyone (hardware companies, movie studios e.t.c)

2)High-def is really complicated. Most average Joes can't take advantage of the benefits of the new formats.

3)The difference between high-def and s-def is not big enough. I know people here hate to hear this but in reality the difference is nowhere near the VHS-DVD one (even though people will start mentioning numbers about resolutions, number of pixes, sound bitrates e.t.c) and not just for the average person.

I think that, given current technologies and the fact that the computer just does it better than a standalone HD player, the studios are grossly overestimating public interest in movie interactivity.

For every 10 hours of movies I watch, I'm lucky if I care to spend more than 20 minutes watching special features -- and I'm a videophile. My parents could care less.

So you really believe that HDM is going to be successful because it offers HD PQ and TrueHD/DTS-MA?

Is that what you are saying?

In five years?????:eek::eek:

HDM doesn't have so much time to spare. 2007 was actually the year of the HDM breakout, one look at the release lists is more than enough to prove that plus we have cheap players for everyone's budget and needs (from 399$ ps3s to 98$ Toshiba players).

I doubt that studios will continue to lose money on HDM for much longer. DVD was doing great in its second year and that's without a new playstation supporting it. If we continue to see similar apathy towards HDM in 2008 then i'd say that high-def movies are doomed.

I believe that the reasons for this are:
1)The format war. Even though competition has brought prices down there are still many disadvantages coming from the format war. From people being afraid to choose one to no unified marketing efford from everyone (hardware companies, movie studios e.t.c)

2)High-def is really complicated. Most average Joes can't take advantage of the benefits of the new formats.

3)The difference between high-def and s-def is not big enough. I know people here hate to hear this but in reality the difference is nowhere near the VHS-DVD one (even though people will start mentioning numbers about resolutions, number of pixes, sound bitrates e.t.c) and not just for the average person.

Time really is of the essence isn't it:

30 Years - VHS

20 Years - LD

10 Years - DVD

DVD comes out in 1997 - 2003 it surpasses VHS in sales (6 years) - hailed as THE most successful CE product in history . . .

And growth STOPS 2 years later - 2005. So in 8 years the most successful CE product . . . has run out of steam?

And we are approaching 2 years for HDM. An evolutionary product that depends on having special, expensive equipment to be appreciated.

Is it any wonder that consumers are running past the HDM aisle to get to the DVD aisle?

I have been seeing this confusion for months and I have posted before about this mess. The average consumer is really confused and I have seen this over and over again. One recent story on a Circuit City experience a few weeks ago. I was in the store buying on the 2 for one sale and I saw a few people come over to the sale section. I asked what kind of HD player the woman had and she said a Sony. I pointed out that Sony only made Blu-Ray HD players and she got angry with me and did not believe me. I told her that the HD films would not play on her player. I asked her what model she bought and she told me that it was an all in one Home Theatre model. I tried to point out that Sony nor anyone else made HD all in one units and she probably bought an upscailing player. She walked away not wanting to believe me. He husband came over and I pointed out the differences. She than gave me a really dirty look thinking I was some kind of jerk. It seems this is a great example of Cognitive Dissonance theory from psychology. Once one makes a decsion it is hard to show that an error has been made. The sad part is that the average consumer is really confused and in many cases sales help is ill equiped to explain the differences

I have been seeing this confusion for months and I have posted before about this mess. The average consumer is really confused and I have seen this over and over again. One recent story on a Circuit City experience a few weeks ago. I was in the store buying on the 2 for one sale and I saw a few people come over to the sale section. I asked what kind of HD player the woman had and she said a Sony. I pointed out that Sony only made Blu-Ray HD players and she got angry with me and did not believe me. I told her that the HD films would not play on her player. I asked her what model she bought and she told me that it was an all in one Home Theatre model. I tried to point out that Sony nor anyone else made HD all in one units and she probably bought an upscailing player. She walked away not wanting to believe me. He husband came over and I pointed out the differences. She than gave me a really dirty look thinking I was some kind of jerk. It seems this is a great example of Cognitive Dissonance theory from psychology. Once one makes a decsion it is hard to show that an error has been made. The sad part is that the average consumer is really confused and in many cases sales help is ill equiped to explain the differences

But she was correct! . . . See.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/sony-hd-dvd.jpg

I have to chime in here... I was over at a neighbor's house Friday night and they said the exact same thing: "We bought an HD player at WalMart today for $29!!" ...and showed me the Magnavox.

I was very polite and explained to them it was not an "HD" player but a 1080p upconverting DVD player. They said it will play movies at "Full HD 1080p", the same resolution as their 1080p HDTV, so it's HD.

Oh well... as long as they are happy.

IMO, that's why HDM is such a hard sell for J6P. Put a DVD in a decent upscaler and without a side-by-side test with true HD it's good enough. Let's be honest, it's not exactly the same level of jump as b&w->color and VHS->DVD (DVD bringing random access/chapters/extras to the table). I watched Shrek 3 SD upscaled on the PS3 and IMO it looked great. I'm not a hardcore HT enthusiast, just a guy who likes movies.

Nobody but enthusiasts are going to buy a player that only works with 1/2 of the film content out there. Not to mention: Red discs, blue discs, 1080p, 1080i, DTS, PCM, component, HDMI. What a mess.

At this point I hope the whole HDM thing flops and we reboot in a couple of years when the market is ready with a unified format.

I wonder how consumers (including me!) are going to react to the rampant price cutting if it doesn't continue.

DVDs are now $5, 50" plasmas are $999, 46" Aquos 1080p displays are $1200, HD DVD players are $99 with 5 to 10 free movies, etc. etc.

I walked in to Best Buy last night with the thought of getting a deal on an HD DVD movie or two. I walked past the giant bin of $4.99 DVDs to check it out. The cheapest movie was $24.98. I went home and checked my NetFlix queue instead. Sorry, but to me those movies just aren't worth that price. Call me when they hit $10.00.

Actually DVD isn't really good enough if you deomo HD and DVD one after the other (though side by side is better). I have a friend who just bought a 1080p 50" plazma along with an unconverting DVD player. I asked him why he didn't buy an HD DVD player since it upconverts and plays "real" HD DVDs. I took my A1 over to his house and hooked it up. Using a combo disc (you know, those discs everyone hates) I showed him the differences. He bought an A20 for $200.00 and took the upconverting player back. He was also told the $30 HDMI cable he bought wouldn't handle 1080p. There's a fraud going on out there and its called greed. He needs anouther cable so I gave he a website and he bought another HDMI cable (6 feet) for $7.00!

The biggest problem for BD and HD DVD isn't consumer ignorance - its the retailers' ignorance and apathy. They don't know and/or don't care! What a shame.

Cheers,

Grant

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.Actually, I wouldn't mind if that happened. What would be so bad if HDM turned out to be LD2? LD lasted for over 20 years and produced over 20,000 titles. Who would honestly object to that??

Actually DVD isn't really good enough if you deomo HD and DVD one after the other (though side by side is better). I have a friend who just bought a 1080p 50" plazma along with an unconverting DVD player. I asked him why he didn't buy an HD DVD player since it upconverts and plays "real" HD DVDs. I took my A1 over to his house and hooked it up. Using a combo disc (you know, those discs everyone hates) I showed him the differences. He bought an A20 for $200.00 and took the upconverting player back. He was also told the $30 HDMI cable he bought wouldn't handle 1080p. There's a fraud going on out there and its called greed. He needs anouther cable so I gave he a website and he bought another HDMI cable (6 feet) for $7.00!

The biggest problem for BD and HD DVD isn't consumer ignorance - its the retailers' ignorance and apathy. They don't know and/or don't care! What a shame.

Cheers,

Grant

I'm convinced Toshiba made the A2 a terrible SD player just to make the SD-HD difference seem greater than it is. My SD DVD's look horrible on it.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if that happened. What would be so bad if HDM turned out to be LD2? LD lasted for over 20 years and produced over 20,000 titles. Who would honestly object to that??

That is a very nice hindsight look at LD.

But the studios - specifically WB - is looking at LD as a true niche product with very low sales and very low profit. They do not want that to happen.

NOTE ON LD: If i am not mistaken - there were LD players that played DVD's also.

Back on topic though . . .

So does everyone think Black Friday Weekend was good for HDM?

I'm convinced Toshiba made the A2 a terrible SD player just to make the SD-HD difference seem greater than it is. My SD DVD's look horrible on it.

sorry to hear that. most of the sd dvds ive played on my a2 look great, imo.

That is a very nice hindsight look at LD.

But the studios - specifically WB - is looking at LD as a true niche product with very low sales and very low profit. They do not want that to happen.I'll repeat my question: If the HD formats wind up lasting over 20 years with 20,000+ titles, why would you object to that?

The biggest problem for BD and HD DVD isn't consumer ignorance - its the retailers' ignorance and apathy. They don't know and/or don't care! What a shame.

I agree with you. The average consumer is going to rely on store info and salespeople. But the store and sales people seem clueless. Or they are taking advantage of people.

For example, at a Wal-Mart around here, there is the Blu-Ray/HD DVD booth. The HD DVD side is OK, the Blu-Ray opposite side is OK, but the two other sides are filled with Phillips "Simply plays it all" player. Of course, that player doesn't play either Blu-Ray nor HD DVD.

Another example, Eyewear in HD! Up to there, it's already more than borderline. But, for the last week or so, they've improved on the concept: Now they say that "To go with their HD lenses, they've teamed up with a TV channel, and they have a contest where you can win an HDTV while watching an HD show!".

I almost forgot... The "HDTV" is a 1024x1080 Hitachi. As far as I know, 1024x1080 is not one of the HDTV resolutions.

Check it here: http://www.newlook.ca/html/ang/index.html

How is the consumer going to know better?

Lee, that was a great picture that you posted. It tells it all. I am beginning to believe that the only way HD will succeed in either format will be to include the ability to play HD in all future players. If the price was really low a transistion could take place. I am wishing but not expecting anything so smart from the electronic manufactures.

I'll repeat my question: If the HD formats wind up lasting over 20 years with 20,000+ titles, why would you object to that?

I don't believe it is a valid question. The time period is way too long. If we cut it to a believable 10 years and the number of titles to 9000 - that would not work for me at all because of my taste in movies. I get excited about titles like Blade Runner, Bonnie and Clyde and The Wild Bunch . . . I have little interest in the kinds of movies they are making today - mostly from comic books or old TV shows.

It's like Video Games. Gave up after PONG::D But you have to tear me away from a Pinball machine:p

It may work fine for you though.;)

The most successful product in CE history - DVD - stalled out in 2005 - only 2 years after surpassing VHS for sales.

I'm convinced Toshiba made the A2 a terrible SD player just to make the SD-HD difference seem greater than it is. My SD DVD's look horrible on it.

You may have something wrong or aren't using the HDMI connection as I'm so happy with the A2's upcoverting I took my Oppo out of the system.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if that happened. What would be so bad if HDM turned out to be LD2? LD lasted for over 20 years and produced over 20,000 titles. Who would honestly object to that??

Agreed,

As a bonus, an LD-like HDM market would probably produce more high quality transfers, as the AV-phile would be the target, not the masses.

The LD days of the early/mid '90's were a fun time for HT. And LD's had no DRM- not even Macrovision on the Svideo outs! You coul dmake perfect backups to S-VHS, and the LD market held up well with such an open format. And remember, these were the first optical format with random access, extras, and digital sound, from PCM to DD and DTS. All that DVD added was a smaller form factor, higher res, and digital video.

And naysayers have bad memories abut how ubiquitous LD was- two video stores within walking distance from my first house in an average suburb in the 90's rented them. Every mall in SE Michigan had a Suncoast store with a complete selection of LD, too. BB also got into the LD game by the mid 90's.

I almost forgot... The "HDTV" is a 1024x1080 Hitachi. As far as I know, 1024x1080 is not one of the HDTV resolutions.

Check it here: http://www.newlook.ca/html/ang/index.html

How is the consumer going to know better?

Great point re: funky non-standard plasma resolutions.

Heck, at 1024x1024 or 1024xWhatever, these plasmas probably don't show much more detail than an SD-DVD can output!

And don't forget all those 480p plasmas sold in the past several years.

People with these sets are gonna wonder why they don't see much/any difference between SD and HDM...

I'll repeat my question: If the HD formats wind up lasting over 20 years with 20,000+ titles, why would you object to that?
I don't believe it is a valid question. The time period is way too long. If we cut it to a believable 10 years and the number of titles to 9000It was you who said "I don't want HD Media to be like LD". In other words, YOU raised the question. Now you're changing your mind and deciding it would NOT be like LD after all.

I'll repeat my question: If the HD formats wind up lasting over 20 years with 20,000+ titles, why would you object to that?

I would certainly object if the titles ends up costing $100 each, like they did on Laserdisc.

I would certainly object if the titles ends up costing $100 each, like they did on Laserdisc.So would I, but fortunately, there's no sign of that (although Fox seems to be trying).

It was you who said "I don't want HD Media to be like LD". In other words, YOU raised the question. Now you're changing your mind and deciding it would NOT be like LD after all.

I reviewed all of my posts on this thread. You have quoted me above using quotation marks. Can you tell me which post that comes from? All I found was this one:

Posted By Lee Stewart

We are on the forefront of expanding what the 5" shiny disc can do. We may find 5 years from now that better PQ and AQ are 2nd or even 3rd on the list of why people bought into HDM.

You MUST look at these features from a Macro point of view. Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

Is this it?

Is this it?Yep. Either it would be another LD or it wouldn't.

Great point re: funky non-standard plasma resolutions.

Heck, at 1024x1024 or 1024xWhatever, these plasmas probably don't show much more detail than an SD-DVD can output!

And don't forget all those 480p plasmas sold in the past several years.

People with these sets are gonna wonder why they don't see much/any difference between SD and HDM...



Not to mention the really bad contrast ratios on those... YUCKY!

Yep. Either it would be another LD or it wouldn't.

Your statement is black or white . . . yes or no . . .would or wouldn't . . .

My statement:

Or else HDM becomes LD Part 2 and i do not believe anyone really wants that to happen.

You see the words "or else" - something has to happen first - the context of the special features - and how important I feel they are to HDM - that is what promoted that statement.

My personal view . . . at the rate we are going now - HDM will be LD Part2. . . unless the IF/WE feature really takes off.

The definition of LD is not a format that lasted 20 years and produced 18,000+ titles.

The definition of LD is a format that failed to achieve mass adoption and was only supported by enthauists. The fact that it lasted 20 years and produced 18,000 titles is secondary.

That clear it up for you?

If they don't have it, and Best Buy is out, I'll have my laptop and Sprint card with me, I'll get it online. :)

What's a Sprint card?

The definition of LD is a format that failed to achieve mass adoption and was only supported by enthauists. The fact that it lasted 20 years and produced 18,000 titles is secondary.The "secondary" aspect isn't important (I don't agree that it is secondary), but you still haven't answered why a lifespan of 20 years with 20,000+ titles produced and catering to enthusiasts is objectionable.

Not to mention the really bad contrast ratios on those... YUCKY!

rgb and Baccusboy. You guys are kidding right? I just purchased a Kuro Pioneer 6010 and am LOVING it. My ISF calibrator loves working on the Pioneer plasmas though I have another 100 hours before he touches it. Both my XA2 and Panasonic BD10 are solid performers with this set.

The "secondary" aspect isn't important (I don't agree that it is), but you still haven't answered why a lifespan of 20 years with 20,000+ titles produced and catering to enthusiasts is objectionable.

Yes I did - I felt that was a true "pie in the sky" speculation - that it would never happen because of the accelerated rate of technology which I did post about. The formats are lasting a shorter time period.

When we play the game "what if" - in this case - I do not believe "the sky's the limit" applies. Other cases - yes - not that HDM is going to last 20 years. Forget about the number of titles - it is the time period I have trouble agreeing with you.

You set the "goal posts" for your "what if" question. I don't agree with the distance between them.

So either change your "goal posts" or I will just have to say; "we agree to disagree." Your choice. Either way is fine by me. Just a friendly discussion.

Yes I did - I felt that was a true "pie in the sky" speculation - that it would never happen because of the accelerated rate of technology which I did post about. The formats are lasting a shorter time period.Then you should not have said the HD formats will be "another LD". You should have simply said "their lifetime will be too short with too few titles". They cannot be "another LD" and "different from LD" at the same time.

Then you should not have said the HD formats will be "another LD". You should have simply said "their lifetime will be too short with too few titles". They cannot be "another LD" and "different from LD" at the same time.

I would appreciate it if you did not tell me what I should have said - I stated no facts - there is no right or wrong.

But I do have good company to keep. I found this today AFTER I made the post you have challanged:

At a time when the home video business is flat and HD media presents our best hope for near term growth our focus as an industry should be on the consumer and creating the most attractive scenario for them.We have a window of opportunity here and if we continue to perpetuate consumer confusion HD media may become the next laser disk.

http://www.contentagenda.com/info/CA6442866.html

That is the Executive Vice President, New Media, Warner Bros speaking.

That is the Executive Vice President, New Media, Warner Bros speaking.I don't care if he's the Warner CEO. I'd ask him the same question I asked you: Why would it be so bad if these formats lasted 20+ years and produced over 20,000 titles?

rgb and Baccusboy. You guys are kidding right? I just purchased a Kuro Pioneer 6010 and am LOVING it. My ISF calibrator loves working on the Pioneer plasmas though I have another 100 hours before he touches it. Both my XA2 and Panasonic BD10 are solid performers with this set.

Speaking for myself- there was no intention to disrespect plasmas across the board- just early models with bad contrast and/or low/non standard resolutions.

The proliferation of 1366x768 and 1920x1080 50" plasmas this season is a nice surprise for those so inclined, though I am an LCD guy myself, primarily because of easy PC interfacing/ 1:1 pixel mapping and lower burn in risk.

I agree that a quality plasma properly ISF'd probably produces a reference standard image at the moment, better than the best LCD.

I don't care if he's the Warner CEO. I'd ask him the same question I asked you: Why would it be so bad if these formats lasted 20+ years and produced over 20,000 titles?

We agree to disagree.;)

...NOTE ON LD: If i am not mistaken - there were LD players that played DVD's also.

Back on topic though . . .

So does everyone think Black Friday Weekend was good for HDM?

Lee, yes, you are correct that there were LD players that also played DVDs. One of my ol buddies had one. The one he owned had a huge pause when changing layers on a dual layer dvd. I was watching a movie with him one evening, and I wondered why he hit the pause button before I realized it was the layer change.

I think that BF weekend was good for HDM. If people didn't know what they were looking for, though, it could have been very confusing for them.

Speaking for myself- there was no intention to disrespect plasmas across the board- just early models with bad contrast and/or low/non standard resolutions.

The proliferation of 1366x768 and 1920x1080 50" plasmas this season is a nice surprise for those so inclined, though I am an LCD guy myself, primarily because of easy PC interfacing/ 1:1 pixel mapping and lower burn in risk.

I agree that a quality plasma properly ISF'd probably produces a reference standard image at the moment, better than the best LCD.

Thanks for the claification. I have owned CRTs, DLP, and still own a LCD for backup. I only commented because I have been very impressed with this Plasma because it does so well with my high def discs.

Great point re: funky non-standard plasma resolutions.

Heck, at 1024x1024 or 1024xWhatever, these plasmas probably don't show much more detail than an SD-DVD can output!

And don't forget all those 480p plasmas sold in the past several years.

People with these sets are gonna wonder why they don't see much/any difference between SD and HDM...


Yeah, right. I have a 1024x768 native plasma, and the difference between SD and HD DVD's is very obvious.

The difference is also very obvious when comparing an interlaced 4:3 SD TV to a 852x480 plasma... Sales people try to make consumers believe it's HD. It's an improvement, no doubt, but it's still not HD.

I agree with you. The average consumer is going to rely on store info and salespeople. But the store and sales people seem clueless. Or they are taking advantage of people.

For example, at a Wal-Mart around here, there is the Blu-Ray/HD DVD booth. The HD DVD side is OK, the Blu-Ray opposite side is OK, but the two other sides are filled with Phillips "Simply plays it all" player. Of course, that player doesn't play either Blu-Ray nor HD DVD.

Another example, Eyewear in HD! Up to there, it's already more than borderline. But, for the last week or so, they've improved on the concept: Now they say that "To go with their HD lenses, they've teamed up with a TV channel, and they have a contest where you can win an HDTV while watching an HD show!".

I almost forgot... The "HDTV" is a 1024x1080 Hitachi. As far as I know, 1024x1080 is not one of the HDTV resolutions.

Check it here: http://www.newlook.ca/html/ang/index.html

How is the consumer going to know better?

according to (i think its them) the cea (consumer electronics association), hdtv is supposed to meet the following requirements: at least 720 lines of vertical resolution and a 16x9 viewing format. period. there is no minimum horizontal line/pixel requirement. its not a law or regulation, just a guideline.

it could theoretically be 10 horizontal lines x 720 vert lines and still be considered hd. but who would buy such a thing? go figure...!

anything more than 720 vert like the 1080 vert u mention above, is considered hd.

I just found another example of confusion. Staples on their cyber Monday ad has a refurbished RCA HD DVD player listed for $50. When you go to the page you will be offered an unconversion player recorder.

http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/products/071125/merch015893/index2.html

http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?PID=1768450&jspStoreDir=Staples&catalogId=10051&cm_mmc=CJ-_-affiliate-_-feed-_-listing&noredir=true&langId=-1&AID=10422268&partNumber=716681&storeId=10001

I just found another example of confusion. Staples on their cyber Monday ad has a refurbished RCA HD DVD player listed for $50. When you go to the page you will be offered an unconversion player recorder.

http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/products/071125/merch015893/index2.html

http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?PID=1768450&jspStoreDir=Staples&catalogId=10051&cm_mmc=CJ-_-affiliate-_-feed-_-listing&noredir=true&langId=-1&AID=10422268&partNumber=716681&storeId=10001

i saw that yesterday, got all excited for about 15 minutes, went back to double check it and HOLY MOLY, it was for the recorder.:eek: bummer, sort of.

according to (i think its them) the cea (consumer electronics association), hdtv is supposed to meet the following requirements: at least 720 lines of vertical resolution and a 16x9 viewing format. period. its not a law or regulation, just a guideline.

it could theoretically be 10 horizontal lines x 720 vert lines and still be considered hd. go figure...!

anything more than 720 vert like the 1080 vert u mention above, is considered hd.

This was not always the case. originally the CEA said to put the HDTV logo on a TV it had to be either 720 or 1080 which matched the specs of the ATSC formats.

Then came the 768 - no problem - it exceeded the 720 specs.

THEN came the 1024x768 and this is where the CEA caved in to the CEM's. It fell below the specs. But with a lot of going back and forth - the CEM's won out and got to call this res. HDTV.

Hitachi is unique because they are the only ones making interlace FPD's. When you compare it to a 1366x768 - it has about 100,000 more pixels. And as most HD on "OTA" is 1080i, along with HDM players offerring that res - you can see why they did it.

>>NOTE ON LD: If i am not mistaken - there were LD players that played DVD's also.<<

The Pioneer DVL-700 and DVL-91 Elite DVD/LD/CD players were the very first DVD players released in America in February of 1997. Happily, the 700 was a fantastic LD player and very good DVD player - well, very good in comparison to LD - sadly, Pioneer used some of the composite LD circuitry for processing the DVD image, especially the color. My DVL-700 is still operating perfectly - as is my VP-1000A, Magnavox 8000 (purchased by Bruce Springstein on the launch day in Atlanta), LD-1100, CLD-1010, PR-8210 and MCA DiscoVision PR-7820.

Sadly, Pioneer, Sony & Panasonic never released the MUSE-E based High-Definition LD format, Hi-Vision LD, here in America - and in Japan they massively overcharged for it, both players and discs. Not that MUSE-E, as used on LD and broadcast, compares well with what we have today - it's average resolution is about like DVD in most cases - except for Vertical res.

Back in the day, Pioneer was doing R&D on an MPEG-2 based digital videodisc format using the LaserDisc form factor. Wouldn't that be interesting?

I would certainly object if the titles ends up costing $100 each, like they did on Laserdisc.
So would I, but fortunately, there's no sign of that (although Fox seems to be trying).

OK, so you're saying that HDM is not about to become like LD, then? It cannot both be like LD and be different from LD at the same time, you know.

OK, so you're saying that HDM is not about to become like LD, then? It cannot both be like LD and be different from LD at the same time, you know.

You have picked a very small "talking point" concerning LD. How many titles were $100? . . of the 18,000 released?

A MACRO view is needed as opposed to a MICRO view.

I mean I could say that VHS was better than LD, DVD and now HDM . . . because it offered recording with every unit from day one. I know . . Thank you "Captain Obvious" . . . but if recording is your "bag" then a player is only half the answer.

But all I am doing is comparing a single feature and using it as an example of a true . . . but silly statement.;)

Ahhh . . . it's worse than that. Many consumers think that just by sending a video signal to their HDTV - they are watching HD on their HDTV . . . especially when the program providers use a logo in the corner of the display that has "HD" in it.:(

Yeah thats a bit confusing. I've noted some shows has been using a "Also available in HD" on their SD version of things which is really the way things are. Noted this on Myth busters recently. Thats a good idea for this imo.

You have picked a very small "talking point" concerning LD. How many titles were $100? . . of the 18,000 released?

I don't remember. I didn't buy laserdiscs, as I though they were crazy expensive.

But how many of the 18000 LDs released were special editions, and how many were straight movie-only versions? How many were letterboxed, and how many were full screen?

A MACRO view is needed as opposed to a MICRO view.

Sure, but if you want to compare HDM to LD and want to make the point that it would be great if the HDM-market became just like the LD-market, then it's important to consider more than just the good parts.

I think that if HDM ends up with the same market penetration as LD, with the same release schedule as LD, with the same price level as LD and the same availablilty in stores as LD, I would be very, very disappointed.

I mean I could say that VHS was better than LD, DVD and now HDM . . . because it offered recording with every unit from day one. I know . . Thank you "Captain Obvious" . . . but if recording is your "bag" then a player is only half the answer.

And it's a very valid point. There were a lot of people that used their VCR to record TV-programs daily, and almost never rented movies. A DVD-player is completely useless to these people.

Does anyone have a sense of how HDM did over the holidays - sell another 100,000 players, more, less?

I don't remember. I didn't buy laserdiscs, as I though they were crazy expensive.

But how many of the 18000 LDs released were special editions, and how many were straight movie-only versions? How many were letterboxed, and how many were full screen?

In the USA - I would be surprised if the number of CAV $100 SE's hit 500. Single disc movies were $34.99 and 2 disc movies were $39.99. Almost all LD's after the first 3 years or so were LTBX. It was a big selling point for LD. It was ushered in with Criterion's Blade Runner in Videoscope (always liked that moniker:D) - in 1982

Sure, but if you want to compare HDM to LD and want to make the point that it would be great if the HDM-market became just like the LD-market, then it's important to consider more than just the good parts.

IMO - here are most of the talking points about LD - good and bad:

1. Better PQ - 2X that of VHS
2. Better AQ - gave us DD5.1 and DTS
3. Better Navagation - Chapters - go to a scene very quickly
4. Special features - outtakes, deleted scenes, etc
5. Great Cover Art
6. OAR
7. Allowed you to increase the size of the image by 400% (27" to 54") without losing PQ (part of #1)
8. Expensive
9. Only captured 2% of the market
10. Limited Title Selection
11. Clunky to use - side changes and disc changes.

Well HDM has replicated points 1 to 4;) . . . and point 8:(

I think that if HDM ends up with the same market penetration as LD, with the same release schedule as LD, with the same price level as LD and the same availablilty in stores as LD, I would be very, very disappointed.

As would I

Does anyone have a sense of how HDM did over the holidays - sell another 100,000 players, more, less?

Sounds like HDM sold a bunch of players . . . but there were no B&M sales on movies.. . .? . . . .:(

I don't care if he's the Warner CEO. I'd ask him the same question I asked you: Why would it be so bad if these formats lasted 20+ years and produced over 20,000 titles?

because "IF" it is making a profit it is not a big a profit as they want with sustainability (especially with RTI and JIT) long term ;) The company does not want to start changing media formats every single digit years as that cost them capital and they don't like things affecting thier capital. All companies regardless of industry would like to have 1 product last an Eon but competition and technology has changed that picture.

You can take that statement to the bank.

I just found another example of confusion. Staples on their cyber Monday ad has a refurbished RCA HD DVD player listed for $50. When you go to the page you will be offered an unconversion player recorder.

http://www.staples.com/sbd/cre/products/071125/merch015893/index2.html

http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?PID=1768450&jspStoreDir=Staples&catalogId=10051&cm_mmc=CJ-_-affiliate-_-feed-_-listing&noredir=true&langId=-1&AID=10422268&partNumber=716681&storeId=10001

Whoa...do those ornament things look like they are flipping everyone off?!

:eek:

according to (i think its them) the cea (consumer electronics association), hdtv is supposed to meet the following requirements: at least 720 lines of vertical resolution and a 16x9 viewing format. period. there is no minimum horizontal line/pixel requirement. its not a law or regulation, just a guideline.

it could theoretically be 10 horizontal lines x 720 vert lines and still be considered hd. but who would buy such a thing? go figure...!

anything more than 720 vert like the 1080 vert u mention above, is considered hd.

It conflicts with what is said at the bottom of page 12 of this document: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Notices/1998/fcc98153.pdf

Apologies if this has already been said but it seems to me like HD and Blu-ray are going to have to crank out some Christmas commercials promoting their movies/players and adding in a "don't be fooled by upconverting players" bit to try and counter the misinformation people seem to be digesting and regurgitating.

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but the big box stores need to stop putting the Blu Ray and HD DVD players next to the upconverting players in their Sunday ads.

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but the big box stores need to stop putting the Blu Ray and HD DVD players next to the upconverting players in their Sunday ads.
As if that would clear things up for the average consumer.:rolleyes:

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but the big box stores need to stop putting the Blu Ray and HD DVD players next to the upconverting players in their Sunday ads.

Even worse when they mess up advertising by listing upconverting players as HDM players:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?
storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=199770&cmSearchKeyword=rca+hd+dvd&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

Edit: I didn't see rwestly's post..

Even worse when they mess up advertising by listing upconverting players as HDM players:
http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=199770&cmSearchKeyword=rca+hd+dvd&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

That has to be the most confusing ad I have seen yet. If all you read is the title it is totally misleading. But if you read the enitre specs - you clearly see that HD DVD is not supported under the formats key.

Is it a refurb?

For $99?

For a DVD/DVD Recoder/UP DVD player? On BF?

It's not like this is anything new. This has been going on for a while. Even if you have the proper info the average consumer still will have no idea what is going on.

It is just as bad for the discs. Most retailer's usually list 'also on ....' but never list the things on the disc that would explain the premium cost either. A quater page add on the 2 disc dvd features and in little print below they mention HDM? Why would a consumer bother? I think giving a few more lines to detail the exclusive feature or content would go a long way.

The scary thing is, it's not us out there interfacing with the masses in discussing HDM: it's 22 year-old, underpaid, blue shirts and red shirts who are woefully misinformed, or worse yet, pushing their own personal agenda or bias....

Just got back from WM and was browsing the electronics section again...same shelves of Blue and HD...no empty slots..pretty full as it always seems to be...they did though have a cardboard "display" bear the register with some blah Blu movies but what was funny is that they used the top of the display to load it up with super cheap SD versions of Shrek 3 that included the free doll.... oh the poor huddled masses.... :)

It conflicts with what is said at the bottom of page 12 of this document: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Notices/1998/fcc98153.pdf

thanks for your response! and especially the link! the 'info' i gave, i had read several yrs ago in s&v or some such magazine, i dont remember which. i think your reference is more trustworthy than what i had read.:D

p 12 also says something to the effect that those specific formats (listed on p 12) were not incorporated into fcc digital tv standards. ? im no lawyer and not terribly good at reading and interpreting legal-ese.

Really, its not rocket science. Is it really that hard for people to educate themselves before plonking down their hard earned cash? Its not as though information about HDM is hidden or hard to find. HDM discs and players are clearly marked with their respective logos, its pretty obvious to anyone who can form coherent thought that an upconveting player is different from HD DVD and Blu Ray.

I really wish it were that simple. I know it's hard for you and I to comprehend a person shelling out a few hundred dollars without actually paying attention to what they are buying, but the sad reality is that it happens every day.

How many people do you know with an HDTV and absolutely no HD sources? No HD cable, no HD video games and no HD movies. I would assume that the majority of shoppers this holiday season still think that if they have an HDTV, whatever they watch is now in "High Definition." And can you blame them? How many retailers are going to stop them in the middle of a $1,500.00 HDTV purchase and say "hey! you know that you would need to subscribe to HD cable/satellite or buy an HD DVD/Blu-ray player to get full High Definition out of this TV, right? And that DVD player you have doesn't count as High Definition." Something like that would be a revelation to some of the buyers out there...possibly even enough to intimidate or confuse them into not buying.

And if there are still folks out there who believe everything on an HDTV is in HD, it's not a stretch to think that they could buy an upconverted DVD player and think it would play HD DVDs, or that it makes SD DVDs look the same as HD DVDs. As silly as it may sound to you or I, I could even see some people buying an HD DVD player and then buying SD DVDs to play on it. But what's worse is that it may be months of viewing those SD DVDs which they find so incredible until they realize that they aren't even actually watching true HD material.

True education needs to be done before the average consumer realizes that they need and HD source to feed to an HDTV through the right cabling. There are so many links in the HD chain that the consumers aren't always aware of them or are given misinformation when they are made aware (ex: you need this $200 HDMI cable or you won't experience the entire resolution your TV is capable of). Yikes.

Sigh, sometimes I envy the uninformed. It seems like I get more frustrated over the misinformation given to my friends/family than they do. They say ignorance is bliss, right? Well just picture J6P sitting on his couch with a huge grin on his face watching Transformers DVD from his $99 upconverting DVD player hooked up to his $900.00 37" 720p HDTV with composite cables. He couldn't be happier...THIS IS HD!

Brandon

The scary thing is, it's not us out there interfacing with the masses in discussing HDM: it's 22 year-old, underpaid, blue shirts and red shirts who are woefully misinformed, or worse yet, pushing their own personal agenda or bias....


Actually, I find a lot of those 22 year-olds often know more than people quite a bit older.

Actually, I find a lot of those 22 year-olds often know more than people quite a bit older.

You must not be talking to the same 22-year-olds as I am.....;)

There was one the other day who tried to tell me that Sony had won the VHS/Betamax format war.......

To play Devil's advocate:

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source?

If resolution defines high definition, and if an LCD is fixed pixel/fixed aspect ratio then it's technically displaying everything in HD.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable?

If you have a 720p/768p/766p etc. plasma or LCD and you're watching a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie, is it still HD? You're getting less than the 720 lines of vertical resolution due to the extra wide presentation and the resulting black bars.

Just thoughts. I'd like to hear what people think about this.

To play Devil's advocate:

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source?

If resolution defines high definition, and if an LCD is fixed pixel/fixed aspect ratio then it's technically displaying everything in HD.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable?

If you have a 720p/768p/766p etc. plasma or LCD and you're watching a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie, is it still HD? You're getting less than the 720 lines of vertical resolution due to the extra wide presentation and the resulting black bars.

Just thoughts. I'd like to hear what people think about this.

Good questions. I would think that 'HD' for purists means getting the best possible reproduction throughout the signal chain.

For example, using 24-bit PCM to record a mono soundtrack from the 40s isn't going to make it sound better than a 16-bit DD 640 k encode of a current high-quality film like 300. However, this does not mean that 16-bit DD 640 is automatically acceptable for all films.

Ditto for video - if the original source is 250-line tape, 1080p/60 may well be overkill.

HOWEVER, the key is to NOT LOSE any of the information in the source, or to at least lose as little as possible, and create as little added information (artifacting) as possible.

Here's the problem with upconversion: The pixels the are interposed between those that are actually encoded on the disc are 'created' mathematically, and arenot part of the original recording. This is done in an attempt to reduce the visual impact of blocking - where you actually see the squared outlines of the resolution limits. In short, the upconversion doesn't really create a HD signal; it simply tries to reduce the visibility of artifacting caused by the conversion of a 480i source to a 720p or 1080p display. In short, the display may be capable of HD, but the actual reconstructed signal seen by the viewer is not HD, but rather it is simply 'smoothed' SD.

In contrast, a good BD or HD DVD disc actually has discrete recorded information for each of the pixels that is on that HD display (or as close as the encoder compression algorithm can get to it). In this case, what the viewer finally sees is actual discrete points of information at each display pixel, where each point has a basis in the original source. THIS is HD.

To play Devil's advocate:

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source?

If resolution defines high definition, and if an LCD is fixed pixel/fixed aspect ratio then it's technically displaying everything in HD.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable?

If you have a 720p/768p/766p etc. plasma or LCD and you're watching a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie, is it still HD? You're getting less than the 720 lines of vertical resolution due to the extra wide presentation and the resulting black bars.

Just thoughts. I'd like to hear what people think about this.
Heretic thoughts. Beware the AV inquisition.

After reading this thread I will have to admit that for the first time I see the "Blu-Ray" name making sense. My mom was over for Thanksgiving and I gave her my upconverting Sony DVD player since i replaced it with an A3 and trying to tell her what it is was challenging. But when going through my movie collection she said "oh, these are Blu-Ray".

I can only hope these morons make up and create one format soon. I know... won't happen but I can hope!

Good questions. I would think that 'HD' for purists means getting the best possible reproduction throughout the signal chain.

For example, using 24-bit PCM to record a mono soundtrack from the 40s isn't going to make it sound better than a 16-bit DD 640 k encode of a current high-quality film like 300. However, this does not mean that 16-bit DD 640 is automatically acceptable for all films.

Ditto for video - if the original source is 250-line tape, 1080p/60 may well be overkill.

HOWEVER, the key is to NOT LOSE any of the information in the source, or to at least lose as little as possible, and create as little added information (artifacting) as possible.

Here's the problem with upconversion: The pixels the are interposed between those that are actually encoded on the disc are 'created' mathematically, and arenot part of the original recording. This is done in an attempt to reduce the visual impact of blocking - where you actually see the squared outlines of the resolution limits. In short, the upconversion doesn't really create a HD signal; it simply tries to reduce the visibility of artifacting caused by the conversion of a 480i source to a 720p or 1080p display. In short, the display may be capable of HD, but the actual reconstructed signal seen by the viewer is not HD, but rather it is simply 'smoothed' SD.

In contrast, a good BD or HD DVD disc actually has discrete recorded information for each of the pixels that is on that HD display (or as close as the encoder compression algorithm can get to it). In this case, what the viewer finally sees is actual discrete points of information at each display pixel, where each point has a basis in the original source. THIS is HD.


I understand interpolation to achieve the upconverted signal. Regardless of the source resolution, the player will upconvert and subsequently output a 1920 x 1080 signal. My question was since the upconverted signal meets the resolution standard, why does that not qualify as HD? :)

I understand interpolation to achieve the upconverted signal. Regardless of the source resolution, the player will upconvert and subsequently output a 1920 x 1080 signal. My question was since the upconverted signal meets the resolution standard, why does that not qualify as HD? :)
The bottom line is that if the image is stored as a 720P or greater image it is considered HD. That being said neither the TV nor many viewers will know that a 1080p signal from an upscaling DVD player was actually created from SD DVD source image. Many would agree that the image from the best encoded DVDs can actually look as good as the worse HDM. However, 90% or more of HDM titles released have a clear image advantage over their DVD counterparts. The really interesting question is is it better to have a highly compressed 1080p image with lots of artifacts or a less compressed DVD image upscaled. This comes more into play with some of the network delivery options available.

I understand interpolation to achieve the upconverted signal. Regardless of the source resolution, the player will upconvert and subsequently output a 1920 x 1080 signal. My question was since the upconverted signal meets the resolution standard, why does that not qualify as HD? :)

Why? Because you are using a scale that is only measuring one single item and only a very macro description.

1920x1080.

So according to you - if I upconvert VHS using a scaler - it must be HD because the signal leaving the upscaler is 1920x1080. Does that make sense you to?

So let me ask YOU a question. How do you start with 720x480 and magically get 1920x1080 from that?;)

To play Devil's advocate:

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source?

If resolution defines high definition, and if an LCD is fixed pixel/fixed aspect ratio then it's technically displaying everything in HD.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable?

If you have a 720p/768p/766p etc. plasma or LCD and you're watching a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie, is it still HD? You're getting less than the 720 lines of vertical resolution due to the extra wide presentation and the resulting black bars.

Just thoughts. I'd like to hear what people think about this.

You bring up some very interesting talking points, because all of them are at least half-truths or technically correct (even ignoring semantics). These are exactly the types of questions/concers that the average consumer should have when going to BB/CC to purchase.

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source? This is why HD shouldn't be about resolution of the display device, but rather resolution of the source material. That is the key difference. Now that everybody is familiar with HDTVs, they need to be educated that it's merely a display device, and that feeding it the proper sources is important.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable? Yeah, that's still HD...it's just HD lite, as some used to call it. Basically, it just sucks.

I think the best way for me to describe it to family/friends is that upconverting to HD resolutions is like when you were young and were close to running out of juice or ketchup and your mom told you to put a little water in it...voila, more juice/ketchup (that DID happen to you guys too, right?). Only it was obvious to you that it was diluted and didn't have the same taste. In terms of sheer volume it's the same as adding more juice/ketchup, but because it's filtered/diluted, it has a softer taste to it.

That's not a perfect analogy but it would make sense, I think. The same goes for upconverting to HD resolutions from standard resolution sources. The result of adding pixels that never existed to fill the panel may make it look better than watching it on a SD CRT tube TV, but compared to blu-ray or hd dvd it still looks soft and fuzzy. Showing them examples (http://www.firingsquad.com/media/hirez.asp?file=/hardware/autumn_2007_video_shootout/images/18.png) is the best way to do that, IMO.

Brandon

Why? Because you are using a scale that is only measuring one single item and only a very macro description.

1920x1080.

So according to you - if I upconvert VHS using a scaler - it must be HD because the signal leaving the upscaler is 1920x1080. Does that make sense you to?

So let me ask YOU a question. How do you start with 720x480 and magically get 1920x1080 from that?;)

I believe he's just being the Devil's Advocate. From his presentation it appears he knows exactly what's going on.

Brandon

I believe he's just being the Devil's Advocate. From his presentation it appears he knows exactly what's going on.

Brandon

Yes - I agree. I even started a thread about this very issue - that is how much I am concerned about it.

I was just arguing semantics:D

People will figure it out eventually. Just like how they went from rabbit ears to cable (remember the little 2 pronged 75ohm converters? :)). Just like how they went from cable to digital cable/satellite. Just like how they're beginning to go to HD cable/satellite. It's a slow process but it will happen. The most important part of getting the HD displays into people's homes is happening at a rapid pace.

People will figure it out eventually. Just like how they went from rabbit ears to cable (remember the little 2 pronged 75ohm converters? :)). Just like how they went from cable to digital cable/satellite. Just like how they're beginning to go to HD cable/satellite. It's a slow process but it will happen. The most important part of getting the HD displays into people's homes is happening at a rapid pace.

What's ironic to me is that when I got an HD display, I now had a need to go from digital cable back to rabbit ears (with a UHF loop, granted)! :D

Very interesting comments guys, thanks for all of that.

I hope I know what's going on. I think I do. Wait, is this the Panny v. Pio thread? ;)

Kidding aside this is what I was looking for specifically because as silly as it sounds, these are the kinds of questions that I and others like me will run into explaining HD. Why is it so difficult to explain? Probably because it's not all that well laid out for the average consumer.

@ Lee

The signal leaving the cable after the scaling is 1920 x 1080 therefore it is HD. It gets there through the scaler's interpolation which creates pixels to fill in the gaps when the picture is scaled up to fit the native resolution of the display. ;)

@ Brandon

Great analogy! My Dad stockpiles groceries like it's wartime so we could have 10 big bottles of ketchup in the pantry but buddha forbid if we threw out the last 1/4 ounce. LOL

I think I'd take it even further as source could mean your player and not necessarily the disc. Kind of the same thing with HD video cameras now. They can internally downconvert to SD, so that SD signal is coming out of an HD camera.

I don't think there should be anything called HD lite. When you've got blocks the size of your hand on your 32" then technically you're not getting the resolution you should be just by virtue of the gross artifacting. Make sense or no?

Also, nobody tackled the last question, re: 720p display and extra wide aspect ratio movies.

Thanks for playing along guys! Aloha!

re 720p display and extra wide aspect ratio movies.

This could almost fall into a widescreen vs fullscreen discussion. The question is whether you want to see the film's original aspect ratio, or do you want to see a full tv screen? "Stretching" the movie vertically would not be a good idea because then everybody & everything would be tall and skinny. Pan&Scan, even to a 16:9 ratio, would cut out material that you should have seen.

You would still have the same horizontal pixel resolution, but would only have a subset of the vertical to preserve OAR. I would still consider it HD. But with a 720p display? I'd want a 1080 display so that I can see the full encoded resolution, but 720 would still be a nice upgrade over older 480 tvs.

I work for a small Telephone company in Wisconsin that also provides cable TV. I had a call yesterday from someone who had just bought an HDTV and needed help setting up our remote to use with it. After we programmed the remote he said, "this is a new HDTV, what do I need to do to get High Definition, do I need a special hook up or anything? I then had to explain that he would need to actually have a subscription for HD, which we do not provide at the moment. He was totally surprised that he could not magically get HD now that he had an HDTV!

I think the best way to explain it is like Brandon said, it starts with the source material. This guy that called me didn't know that he needed to actually feed an HD signal into the TV to get HD. Just like people don't realize it is the same for DVDs.

I work for a small Telephone company in Wisconsin that also provides cable TV. I had a call yesterday from someone who had just bought an HDTV and needed help setting up our remote to use with it. After we programmed the remote he said, "this is a new HDTV, what do I need to do to get High Definition, do I need a special hook up or anything? I then had to explain that he would need to actually have a subscription for HD, which we do not provide at the moment. He was totally surprised that he could not magically get HD now that he had an HDTV!
I think the best way to explain it is like Brandon said, it starts with the source material. This guy that called me didn't know that he needed to actually feed an HD signal into the TV to get HD. Just like people don't realize it is the same for DVDs.

Well technically he COULD with rabbit ears....:D

I'm convinced Toshiba made the A2 a terrible SD player just to make the SD-HD difference seem greater than it is. My SD DVD's look horrible on it.

Too funny

Actually, my A2 makes SD look slightly better than my old toshiba player.

Actually, my A2 makes SD look slightly better than my old toshiba player.

Mine look great, too!:D

Also, nobody tackled the last question, re: 720p display and extra wide aspect ratio movies.

Thanks for playing along guys! Aloha!

I'm not touching that one with a 10-foot pole. Next thing you know we'll have the OAR guys in an uproar and the CIH guys taunting all of us!

Brandon

Heretic thoughts. Beware the AV inquisition.

Nobody expects the A/V inquisition!

Why is that Bill Murray line from Ghostbusters endless looping through my head when I see the title to this thread.;)

Now you know why Sony chose the name, "Blu-ray" for their format.

It's something totally different.As a trademark attorney and HD-A2 owner, that is actually something that I applaud Sony for. Marketing departments always want to label their product with a name that is pseudo-descriptive. That way, consumers will instantly recognize what the product is without having to spend ad money educating them.

The drawback is, descriptive terms are not readily trademark-able. Toshiba will have a MUCH harder time forcing knockoffs from using the term "HD DVD" than Sony will in protecting their "Blu Ray" mark.

Sony/Blu-Ray: 1) Had to spend more initially to get consumers to understand what Blu-Ray is. 2) Will have to spend less money on court cases enforcing their strong, non-descriptive mark.

TOshiba/HD DVD: 1) Had to spend no money initially to get consumers to understand what HD DVD is. 2) Will be mired in endless litigation and will spend lots of money on attorney's fees as they write countless cease-and-desist letters.

As a trademark attorney and HD-A2 owner, that is actually something that I applaud Sony for. Marketing departments always want to label their product with a name that is pseudo-descriptive. That way, consumers will instantly recognize what the product is without having to spend ad money educating them.

The drawback is, descriptive terms are not readily trademark-able. Toshiba will have a MUCH harder time forcing knockoffs from using the term "HD DVD" than Sony will in protecting their "Blu Ray" mark.

Sony/Blu-Ray: 1) Had to spend more initially to get consumers to understand what Blu-Ray is. 2) Will have to spend less money on court cases enforcing their strong, non-descriptive mark.

TOshiba/HD DVD: 1) Had to spend no money initially to get consumers to understand what HD DVD is. 2) Will be mired in endless litigation and will spend lots of money on attorney's fees as they write countless cease-and-desist letters.

I believe the DVD Forum has the trademark on the name HD DVD and not Toshiba. Not 100% sure - too lazy to look at the forum's website for the answer. Anyone else can though;)

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml

Developing a trademark is probably why they spelled blue without the "e." I think it's kind of lame when they do that, but it does help solidify a brand better.

However, I wonder if they wouldn't have chosen "HD DVD" if there was just one format.

Developing a trademark is probably why they spelled blue without the "e." I think it's kind of lame when they do that, but it does help solidify a brand better.

However, I wonder if they wouldn't have chosen "HD DVD" if there was just one format.

Remember - the original name the DVD Forum had picked was AOD - Advanced Optical Disc.

You bring up some very interesting talking points, because all of them are at least half-truths or technically correct (even ignoring semantics). These are exactly the types of questions/concers that the average consumer should have when going to BB/CC to purchase.

If HD is only about resolution, the signal sent from an upconverting player is HD is it not, regardless of the source? This is why HD shouldn't be about resolution of the display device, but rather resolution of the source material. That is the key difference. Now that everybody is familiar with HDTVs, they need to be educated that it's merely a display device, and that feeding it the proper sources is important.

If you have HD cable and/or sat. is it still HD when they shortchange on bandwidth and create artifacting so bad you wish you still had SD analog cable? Yeah, that's still HD...it's just HD lite, as some used to call it. Basically, it just sucks.

I think the best way for me to describe it to family/friends is that upconverting to HD resolutions is like when you were young and were close to running out of juice or ketchup and your mom told you to put a little water in it...voila, more juice/ketchup (that DID happen to you guys too, right?). Only it was obvious to you that it was diluted and didn't have the same taste. In terms of sheer volume it's the same as adding more juice/ketchup, but because it's filtered/diluted, it has a softer taste to it.

That's not a perfect analogy but it would make sense, I think. The same goes for upconverting to HD resolutions from standard resolution sources. The result of adding pixels that never existed to fill the panel may make it look better than watching it on a SD CRT tube TV, but compared to blu-ray or hd dvd it still looks soft and fuzzy. Showing them examples (http://www.firingsquad.com/media/hirez.asp?file=/hardware/autumn_2007_video_shootout/images/18.png) is the best way to do that, IMO.

Brandon

+100

I believe the DVD Forum has the trademark on the name HD DVD and not Toshiba. Not 100% sure - too lazy to look at the forum's website for the answer. Anyone else can though;)

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtmlI checked the US PTO's (Patent and Trademark Office) database...

The DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation of Japan has a registration (#3324751) for the stylized HD DVD logo. (The logo that has the disc design under "DVD" and two crescents under "HD.)

No one has a trademark registered for the wording "HD DVD" alone without any kind of design along with it. "HD-DVD," "HDDVD," and "HD DVD" have been applied for without stylization by several companies, and all of them are now dead, cancelled, or abandoned.

So it looks like it is the design portion of the DVD Forum's mark that is carrying it, as "HD DVD" is somewhat descriptive... i.e. too weak to carry a mark on its own.

I checked the US PTO's (Patent and Trademark Office) database...

The DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation of Japan has a registration (#3324751) for the stylized HD DVD logo. (The logo that has the disc design under "DVD" and two crescents under "HD.)

No one has a trademark registered for the wording "HD DVD" alone without any kind of design along with it. "HD-DVD," "HDDVD," and "HD DVD" have been applied for without stylization by several companies, and all of them are now dead, cancelled, or abandoned.

So it looks like it is the design portion of the DVD Forum's mark that is carrying it, as "HD DVD" is somewhat descriptive... i.e. too weak to carry a mark on its own.

Well you just proved that Toshiba doesn't have the trademark - thanks

So much for that lawsuit:rolleyes:

Just found this on the Costco website.
Free HD DVD discs with a Blu-ray player.
They don't even give you 5. Only 3. :confused:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/SamsungBRfreeHDDVD.jpg

Just found this on the Costco website.
Free HD DVD discs with a Blu-ray player.
They don't even give you 5. Only 3. :confused:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/SamsungBRfreeHDDVD.jpg

Huh? Why would they give you 3 HD DVD titles when you buy a Blu-Ray player? Talk about confusing the customer.

(See the second offer in the pic)

You need to ask yourself ... really in the long run has the mass market ever accepted multiple formats?

Even with MP3 players, most people buy the iPod only.

The general public, really outside of video games does not accept "format wars". The general public's POV is this to entertainment providers "you entertain US", they don't want to and really shouldn't have to research beforehand, it just should work and let them watch the movies they want, that simple.

Right now, DVD is the only disc format that's doing that.

Asking consumers to choose between their favorite movies or buy two separate players was never going to work guys. Never. When there are good dual format players that have no compatibility issues in the $200 range ... then yes, I think you will start to see much better adoption of discs, but the price of HD media is also a big problem too.

$5-$10 more for a HD media disc vs. DVD I don't think really flies with casual/regular joe shoppers either.

Just found this on the Costco website.
Free HD DVD discs with a Blu-ray player.
They don't even give you 5. Only 3. :confused:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/zx3maniac/SamsungBRfreeHDDVD.jpg

whats wrong w this picture?:confused::D

I was in walmart yesterday. They had a FAQ sheet posted regarding blu-ray/HD DVD and I immediately became frustrated when it listed max resolution for HDDVD being 1080i. The 1080i vs 1080p is stupid in general, but it drives me nuts how many times people argue with me that HD DVD doesn't support 1080p

Just found this on the Costco website.
Free HD DVD discs with a Blu-ray player.
They don't even give you 5. Only 3. :confused:

That's priceless.

Brandon

What's ironic to me is that when I got an HD display, I now had a need to go from digital cable back to rabbit ears (with a UHF loop, granted)! :D

Yeah, I think that is awesome though. I have just moved into my house and for the past five days, I have been using Rabbit Ears to watch TV, and I am getting a pretty decent selection.

I was in walmart yesterday. They had a FAQ sheet posted regarding blu-ray/HD DVD and I immediately became frustrated when it listed max resolution for HDDVD being 1080i. The 1080i vs 1080p is stupid in general, but it drives me nuts how many times people argue with me that HD DVD doesn't support 1080p


The players that Walmart sell don't support 1080p playback. The A2-A3 only do 1080i.

That's priceless.

Brandon

I *think* you meant:

HD-DVD player: $98
BD player: $399
Format War & DRM: 10's-100's of million of dollars lost on both side's bottom lines
Getting free HD-DVD's with a BD player purchase: Priceless

:D

here's an idea. The next studio with a blockbuster hit in the theaters, when it is
DVD release time, only releases in HD. What would happen?

here's an idea. The next studio with a blockbuster hit in the theaters, when it is
DVD release time, only releases in HD. What would happen?

A bold thought experiment.

No studio would risk the loss in revenue from the DVD teat, though.

But if it really happened, I would guess that a few more HDM set tops might be sold, depending on whether $98 (or less) set tops are available.

But I would suspect the Masses to skip it, waiting for the TV/cable/sat airing instead, or resort to darknet downloads of a DVD authored from a ripped HDM, or buy it from a street pirate if they live in a big city. It would be another example where the darknet (internet or street) addresses a need/consumer want the publishers don't want to.

here's an idea. The next studio with a blockbuster hit in the theaters, when it is
DVD release time, only releases in HD. What would happen?

Instead of selling 7 million the first week - they would sell 100,000:p

Instead of selling 7 million the first week - they would sell 100,000:p

Only if it's a MAJOR blockbuster...

A bold thought experiment.

No studio would risk the loss in revenue from the DVD teat, though.

But if it really happened, I would guess that a few more HDM set tops might be sold, depending on whether $98 (or less) set tops are available.

But I would suspect the Masses to skip it, waiting for the TV/cable/sat airing instead, or resort to darknet downloads of a DVD authored from a ripped HDM, or buy it from a street pirate if they live in a big city. It would be another example where the darknet (internet or street) addresses a need/consumer want the publishers don't want to.

On another forum, there are some non-HD people who are upset that Disney has some exclusive extras on the BD versions of titles like Cars and Ratatouille. They say it only makes them NOT want to buy into BD because they feel that Disney is trying to force them into it. I can only imagine how they would react if there was an HDM-only title.

ok, fair enough. Studios won't pass up millions of SD DVD sales. How did the studios
manage the VHS to DVD transition, and when did they stop putting out VHS and only
DVD?

ok, fair enough. Studios won't pass up millions of SD DVD sales. How did the studios
manage the VHS to DVD transition, and when did they stop putting out VHS and only
DVD?

It was a gradual process that took several years. I think it was the fall of 2005 when new releases started no longer being available on VHS. Star Wars Episode III was one of the first such titles.

here's an idea. The next studio with a blockbuster hit in the theaters, when it is
DVD release time, only releases in HD. What would happen?

I've been saying something similar for a while. I think HD releases should precede the DVD releases, even if it's only by a week or two.

Here's my reasoning. First of all, unless you're expecting major revenue from format royalties, there's only one good reason for a studio to be exclusive to one format: The hope that this will hasten the death of the other format, which will ultimately lead to greater sales. This IMO is profoundly faulty logic. Movie studios have no business interest in picking a winner in the CE hardware arena. They should be releasing in both formats and letting the consumers sort the hardware out.

Second, obviously the key to growing the market is to move from early adopters to mass market. Expecting to first wait out what could likely turn out to be a stalemate could result in missing an entire technical cycle, with HD optical being replaced with something we may or may not have even thought of yet.

Now if the marketing push on new releases stayed exactly as it is now, but e.g. Harry Potter was out on HDM two weeks ago, the early adopters would have huge bragging rights over their deprived SD friends. Those SD friends would see it available on NetFlix for their HD-enabled friends but their queue would still say "Releases Dec 11".

I've been watching more HD DVD classics than new releases myself, but new releases is where the sizzle is. I think this would grow the market much faster than anything that's happening now, at little or no risk to the studios.

On another forum, there are some non-HD people who are upset that Disney has some exclusive extras on the BD versions of titles like Cars and Ratatouille. They say it only makes them NOT want to buy into BD because they feel that Disney is trying to force them into it. I can only imagine how they would react if there was an HDM-only title.

Good point re: HDM extras exclusives.

I am also frustrated by this practice, and it makes me want to abstain from HDM even more. The obvious carrot and stick/pandering approach will upset a lot of enthusiasts. However, when extras are only related to HDM-specific functionality, like PiP, IME, iHD and similar, it's hard to fault them for that. But I expect all the PiP and other video segments should be included on SD-DVD's in a DVD-compatible manner.

Good point re: HDM extras exclusives.

I am also frustrated by this practice, and it makes me want to abstain from HDM even more. The obvious carrot and stick/pandering approach will upset a lot of enthusiasts. However, when extras are only related to HDM-specific functionality, like PiP, IME, iHD and similar, it's hard to fault them for that. But I expect all the PiP and other video segments should be included on SD-DVD's in a DVD-compatible manner.

If you make DVD and HDM equal - what is the incentive for people to go to HDM? Better PQ and AQ? Nope - that won't do it.

IME and WE are two VERY important features for HDM and may very well prove out to be the "saving grace" of HDM

OBTW - you cannot force the consumer to go HDM. Only the Govt. can do that.:p

OBTW - you cannot force the consumer to go HDM. Only the Govt. can do that.:p

...and they may

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071206-congress-copyright-reform-seize-computers-boost-penalties-spend-money.html

Welcome to the Corporatist States of America

http://www.corporatism.org/

Symptom of Corporatism:

"Governments pressuring other Governments to make legislation which benefits corporations, but not citizens "

Welcome to the Corporatist States of America


Can we try to keep the political crap out of this forum, please?

It was a gradual process that took several years. I think it was the fall of 2005 when new releases started no longer being available on VHS. Star Wars Episode III was one of the first such titles.

Actually, Episode 3 was available in VHS.

Actually, Episode 3 was available in VHS.

But not in the US. I remember reading on the SW official website that SITH would be the 1st SW video release that would not be issued on VHS domestically.

via wikipedia:
This release is notable because, due to marketing issues, it was the first Star Wars film never to be released on VHS in the United States. However, the film was released on VHS in Australia, the United Kingdom and other countries in the world

In 2003 - DVD surpassed VHS in sales. 2 years later - 2005- the most successful CE product in history - marked the time that a major release was DVD only.

So how can you compare HDM to DVD? Because if you want to - from 12/25/98 to 12/31/98 - DVD sold over 750,000 discs with 1.4 million players.

Think HDM will get anywhere's near that number? And remember - there were missing studios - they were launching DIVX.

Only difference - no rental outlets - buy only for DVD at that time - 1 month further along then HDM is today.

Can we try to keep the political crap out of this forum, please?

You're right, my bad, and the "Welcome..." comment was out of line, and a rare (maybe only) political reference on my part (unless you count DRM/IP issues ;) ).

But I thought the arstechnica article might be of interest to some forum members, and should have let readers make their own judgments without the commentary.

Back on topic, my doctor brother in law just bought a Toshiba 52" LCD panel in the last two weeks, and I asked him if he got/thought of getting an HDM/HD-DVD player to go with it.

He mentioned how he bought a "1080p DVD/VHS deck" for his 1080p panel...

You're right, my bad, and the "Welcome..." comment was out of line, and a rare (maybe only) political reference on my part (unless you count DRM/IP issues ;) ).

But I thought the arstechnica article might be of interest to some forum members, and should have let readers make their own judgments without the commentary.

Back on topic, my doctor brother in law just bought a Toshiba 52" LCD panel in the last two weeks, and I asked him if he got/thought of getting an HDM/HD-DVD player to go with it.

He mentioned how he bought a "1080p DVD/VHS deck" for his 1080p panel...

A perfect example when marketing is so successful that you sell the consumer on you "trade name" - 1080P:o

"He mentioned how he bought a "1080p DVD/VHS deck" for his 1080p panel..."
:eek:

A perfect example when marketing is so successful that you sell the consumer on you "trade name" - 1080P:o

...and I wasn't aware they made upconverting *combo* DVD+VHS recording decks!

His need to convert 15+ years worth of VHS home videos (yes, he had one of those coal-burning, shoulder mounted VHS camcorders from the mid 80's through the late 90's) to DVD outweighed any other issue, and he is satisfied with DVD picture quality for movies, but he also mentioned the HDM war and large DVD collection as issues against buying into HDM, for him. He does a lot of research prior to purchase, and asks my advice often, but ultimately makes his own decision when buying tech items.

I got the impression he didn't understand the distinction between upconverted 1080p and native 1080p source, if that is any litmus of the masses' take on this mess. Still, a good call on the panel, at least. Those 52" Toshiba's are looking mighty tempting ;)

Some of these mention upconversion capabilities
http://www.jr.com/JRSectionView.process?N=24087+215971&Ne=101373#Type+of+DVD+Unit

"He mentioned how he bought a "1080p DVD/VHS deck" for his 1080p panel..."
:eek:

It's a well kept HT secret that deinterlaced, color corrected, time based corrected, de-analog-noised, ffdShow sharpen-filtered, Lanzcos-scaled, 1080p upconverted, HiFi DPL-IIx-processed VHS source is the Ultimate in the home theater experience ;)

...waittaminute- if you did all those things, played from an industrial grade SVHS VCR like the Panasonic AG-5700, VHS might actually be passable.

...NOT! :D

Friday at lunch a young member of our I.T. dept ate lunch in our breakroom...several of us were chatting about various things and reading magazines....there was an ad in one mag pushing Sony "HDNA" and someone asked what it meant...after mentioning that it was just a silly ad campaign ...DNA??? ...the topic of Blu Ray movies came up...this young lady saw an ad for a movie on Blu and said she may get it for Xmas since she has "Hi-Def".

We all kinda looked at her..."you do??" (Note: this girl admitadly has little money and trying to save up for school expenses etc)..she keeps sayin "yeah I have a hi-def dvd player, but not sure what model"...we quiz her about it....finally after some investigating, it turns out she just has an all-in-one "home theater" package and it upconverts to "hi def".... :(

There ya go...one of thousands of examples I'm sure of folks who don't have a CLUE what HDM is..and even worse think that they HAVE it and plan to buy one of the "hi-def" discs since their player is "hi-def".

Bet we see a ton of HDM return after the holidays..especially HDM media.

Friday at lunch a young member of our I.T. dept ate lunch in our breakroom...several of us were chatting about various things and reading magazines....there was an ad in one mag pushing Sony "HDNA" and someone asked what it meant...after mentioning that it was just a silly ad campaign ...DNA??? ...the topic of Blu Ray movies came up...this young lady saw an ad for a movie on Blu and said she may get it for Xmas since she has "Hi-Def".

We all kinda looked at her..."you do??" (Note: this girl admitadly has little money and trying to save up for school expenses etc)..she keeps sayin "yeah I have a hi-def dvd player, but not sure what model"...we quiz her about it....finally after some investigating, it turns out she just has an all-in-one "home theater" package and it upconverts to "hi def".... :(

There ya go...one of thousands of examples I'm sure of folks who don't have a CLUE what HDM is..and even worse think that they HAVE it and plan to buy one of the "hi-def" discs since their player is "hi-def".

Bet we see a ton of HDM return after the holidays..especially HDM media.

Hehehe

The Nielsens! For the week of 1/07/08 . . .

-10%/-5%

:D:p:D

ok, fair enough. Studios won't pass up millions of SD DVD sales. How did the studios
manage the VHS to DVD transition, and when did they stop putting out VHS and only
DVD?

Time - about 10 years, but that was 15 years ago before gotta have it NOW was the theme of the day.

We, early adopters, are essentially beta testing the gear for Tosh, Sony and the like.
I am happy to do so.

But I don't think either CEM wants J6P to get home with his shiny new A2 and Transformers, only to find that he needs some sort of firmware upgrade (latin to J6P)

By next holiday, I <imagine> that the CEMs will have all firmware/vers. worked out, to the effect that any disc will play without a hitch, with no need for firmware updates.

Interesting notion. What makes you believe this is likely?

J6P has been well trained, over the years, to expect to "update" his gadgets, particularly his computer and software, with "new versions".

As we continue to hook up home devices to the Internet, why on earth do you think J6P is going to be caught off guard, or totally flummoxed, by a simple Internet update periodically?

Also -- it's a related point -- why are so many people concerned that J6P won't have an Internet connection near his TV? How many dozen rooms do you think he has in has mansion? Is the Internet modem only in his home office? Has he never been to Better Buys and purchased a plug 'n' play $59 wireless router?

Does an automatic still confuse him when he learned to drive a "standard"?

Times change. Expectations change. J6P changes. Twenty years ago hardly any kids encountered computers in grade school. Today, no one attends any school without being proficient in using one. Using an HD DVD player connected to the Internet for extras goodies (and updates) is NOT a technological showstopper.

Agreed - we have turned a relatively simple process into something you literally have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand.

But those HD DVD logos on a player box are very large. So what if any confusion will there be for people buying one?

If the new owner reads the manual - they should have no trouble at least attaching the player to their TV or HT system.

Not picking on you Lee -- it was just a nice summary.

Moving to HDTV and hidef discs can't be any simpler. DVD is one thing; Blu-ray and HD DVD are very clearly marked on the box as something else.

Hooking up a NEW TV is very simple -- use HDMI. Older TVs -- not so easy; you need component cables but still familiar. You might not get the upconvert stuff. But newer TVs ALL come with HDMI which is one cable for video and sound; the same cable for HD and SD upconvert.

You want to blame someone for messing with us? Point yer fingers at DVI. HDMI is painless, simple, plug 'n' play. Yes, it's not hardware backward compatible since it was only recently invented. Thank goodness when you buy your new TV it has this feature: and all your existing DVDs will play loverly. Now ... if we could just get the CEs to include an HDMI cable with all their players!

Interesting notion. What makes you believe this is likely?

J6P has been well trained, over the years, to expect to "update" his gadgets, particularly his computer and software, with "new versions".

As we continue to hook up home devices to the Internet, why on earth do you think J6P is going to be caught off guard, or totally flummoxed, by a simple Internet update periodically?

Also -- it's a related point -- why are so many people concerned that J6P won't have an Internet connection near his TV? How many dozen rooms do you think he has in has mansion? Is the Internet modem only in his home office? Has he never been to Better Buys and purchased a plug 'n' play $59 wireless router?
Does an automatic still confuse him when he learned to drive a "standard"?

Times change. Expectations change. J6P changes. Twenty years ago hardly any kids encountered computers in grade school. Today, no one attends any school without being proficient in using one. Using an HD DVD player connected to the Internet for extras goodies (and updates) is NOT a technological showstopper.



You are SO in the mindset of an A/V "Geek" so to speak....you need to pretend you have never been to a HT forum ..maybe at most you see TV ad's or magazine ad's touting HDM....the LAST thing they would be thinking if they wanted an HDM upgrade dvd player is "I have to order upgrade software discs or connect this thing to a phone line just to watch DVD's!!??"

Sure J6P is used to letting Windows do the automatic downloads for him..no biggie...he has a Directv DVR hooked up to the phone but NEVER has to worry about updating..it does it quietly at night ususally.....

Now the HDM world and HDM early adopters are acting like it's totally no big deal for the average mom and pop to get the player hooked up to a phone etc...you honestly think they are going to invest in and mess with a wireless router etc? Come on now...we're talking about just wanting to watch a DVD movie...they don't want to mess with all the updates no matter HOW used to equipment updates they have in their household....they have worry free, update free, plug and play DVD that they love now and any added quirks they will have to deal with (aside from the "war") is just not gonna be their cup of tea IMO.

Again too many of you are SO engrained in this A/V early adopters forum world mindset that you forget what it's like to be an average run of the mill A/V customer...just because it's second nature to YOU to tweak, update, add routers etc, doesn't mean Mom and Pop are gonna want to mess with all the added things you need to watch HDM.

Frankly though, I think it's just too early to be concerned. They just need more time. You can already buy the discs at places like Wal-Mart, which puts it ahead of laserdisc right there. They're just not high volume enough yet to be huge BF deals.

Now that is one of the more insightful things I've read here in a while. OK, so Wal-Mart was a different force in the retail space when LaserDisc was trying to be relevant.

But the point is worth underscoring: Wal-Mart cares what happens next. As the seller of (did I read this right?) 40% of all DVDs in the US, Wal-Mart wants to see hidef discs succeed -- with higher price points, higher margin, and, ideally, one format SKU to deal with.

It just might be factor in attempting to seed the market with $99 A2s. They could easily have sold 50,000 digital picture frames and delivered the identical shareholder value. But pushing the market to HD DVD means ongoing sales for the next 2, 3, 5 or 10 years of HD DVDs as well.

I wonder how consumers (including me!) are going to react to the rampant price cutting if it doesn't continue.

DVDs are now $5, 50" plasmas are $999, 46" Aquos 1080p displays are $1200, HD DVD players are $99 with 5 to 10 free movies, etc. etc.

Try again. DVDs are not $5. Yes, $5 DVDs exist; but that's not the market price. The studios, and everyone connected to the content delivery chain, cannot survive on that price point.

Same with HD DVD players at $99 (which is possible) which include 10 free movies (which is not sustainable).

The dumbest turn this "format war" has taken is giving consumers mini-libraries of discs in exchange for buying players. The world doesn't work that way; there is no good business model which flows from this. It's one thing to include a "demo disc" or a bonus disc or two to spur sales ... but 5? 10? an MSRP "disc value" more than the player?

There is an eco-system here: players and software. They need each other -- today and into the future and the purchase of one implies a future purchase of the other. Mess synergistic cycle that up -- 1 player, 10 discs -- and you risk messing everything up.

It's a huge problem to solve in 2008 -- and not impossible to do -- but there will be pain, and blood on the floor, before it's all put right again.

How many people do you know with an HDTV and absolutely no HD sources? No HD cable, no HD video games and no HD movies. I would assume that the majority of shoppers this holiday season still think that if they have an HDTV, whatever they watch is now in "High Definition." And can you blame them?

Brandon:

This is a woefully pessimistic view. The average (aka J6P) shopper isn't that stupid.

Yes, some people buy an HDTV and don't connect it to an HD source. They do it because they don't want to pay extra every month for HD satellite and cable. I know very bright (and folks who can afford it) who make exactly this decision.

The marketplace is in transition. In my town the cable, satellite and big box retailer folks ALL have independent campaigns pushing the need for an HD source with an HD TV. Everything I read in the four daily newspapers pushes the same message. In 2005, yes, some folks were confused. I don't believe that the vast majority of folks plunking down $1000 or $2000 for a TV today does not understand HDTV requires an HD source. They need to get HD cable, at a minimum, to see the premium benefits.

What I think is missing is that some consumers are content with the "better" picture they get with a new TV -- even in SD mode. It's almost certainly bigger, brighter, clearer than the CRT set they bought in 1999. Existing DVDs look better than they used to. But once they see genuine HD or even proper upconverted SD to HD -- let alone a buddy with HD DVD or Blu-ray -- the other show will drop.

So it's not so much a "stupid" or "uninformed" consumer as one making a choice not to spend extra just yet -- and not because of a format war but because s/he hasn't seen/absorbed the real deal yet.

I have yet to meet anyone who has had a dozen cable HD channels (out of perhaps 150 other SD channels) for a few months who decided -- based on quality and not economics -- to switch back to regular SD TV. HD really does change everything.

People will figure it out eventually. Just like how they went from rabbit ears to cable (remember the little 2 pronged 75ohm converters? :)). Just like how they went from cable to digital cable/satellite. Just like how they're beginning to go to HD cable/satellite. It's a slow process but it will happen. The most important part of getting the HD displays into people's homes is happening at a rapid pace.

Right. It's not about J6P being stupid. People make choices. and people take time to absorb new technology. It's true in a market like Toronto you could get several OTA HD signals; I don't know anyone who bothers because cable is easier and offers so much more. Some people have HD sets and don't want to spend a little more for HD options on cable -- but it's a conscious decision. Over time, the marketplace will shift as it is with analog vs. digital .... In Toronto, digital is table stakes, not an option; HD will move to the position "soon" ... 2010? or sooner. In the meantime ... HD DVD and Blu-ray provide the best HD experience available for those wanting movies in the best quality. Already, in my experience, the market "desire" is deeper than LaserDisc ... and we're just getting started.

Not picking on you Lee -- it was just a nice summary.

Moving to HDTV and hidef discs can't be any simpler. DVD is one thing; Blu-ray and HD DVD are very clearly marked on the box as something else.

Hooking up a NEW TV is very simple -- use HDMI. Older TVs -- not so easy; you need component cables but still familiar. You might not get the upconvert stuff. But newer TVs ALL come with HDMI which is one cable for video and sound; the same cable for HD and SD upconvert.

You want to blame someone for messing with us? Point yer fingers at DVI. HDMI is painless, simple, plug 'n' play. Yes, it's not hardware backward compatible since it was only recently invented. Thank goodness when you buy your new TV it has this feature: and all your existing DVDs will play loverly. Now ... if we could just get the CEs to include an HDMI cable with all their players!

Then why do I see 100's of posts saying they can't get the HDMI connection to work?

1. HDCP Issues
2. HDMI Handshake Issue
3. No Audio

I don't know about you but NEVER did I plug a device in using either composite or S-Video and either Analog or Digital Audio and have an issue.

"Well try turning the TV on first.":rolleyes:

"Here Joe - here's a Firmware Update for your movie player."

" A What?"

Remember - the original name the DVD Forum had picked was AOD - Advanced Optical Disc.

OMG ... which is DOA is reverse ... :eek:

I believe HD DVD -- however unimaginative -- was a brilliant choice. Everyone gets it without the explanation of a snotty-nosed 18 yr old at your local big box electronics store.

Blu-ray ... what the heck is that? Oh, ok ... the trade-mark attorneys can easily see the difference ... will that sell more TVs? and players?

OMG ... which is DOA is reverse ... :eek:

I believe HD DVD -- however unimaginative -- was a brilliant choice. Everyone gets it without the explanation of a snotty-nosed 18 yr old at your local big box electronics store.

Blu-ray ... what the heck is that? Oh, ok ... the trade-mark attorneys can easily see the difference ... will that sell more TVs? and players?

Oh Oh . . truth in advertising . . . .

It's really a purple "ray":p