I had to buy Ratatouille on SD DVD because my kids would watch it way more than I would (I do think it is a good flick though).

So my question is.....

Would it be possible for Blu-Ray to include a SDDVD in the same case as a BD?

Many include a second BD for bonus features, so including a SDDVD for kid movies would be cheaper. Am I right?

Happy Feet is a great example of a what a combo is about.

The lack of combo's for BD actually stopped me from buying the Pixar flicks on BD.

So is it possible/legal for the BDA to institute a "combo" idea like this?

I would bet they'd rather have you buy both.

I would bet they'd rather have you buy both.

So I would have to spend $50 to have a Disney combo, and $30 for a WB/Uni combo....

I think BD would benefit from such an idea.

I would bet I'm not the only one who has kids who wished there was a way to have a "combo" format released without spending $50+ on two different SKUs, and ended up buying Rata on SD for the kids.

But, would it be possible/legal to do a combo as I suggested in my OP?

Knowing how Disney does business, I would expect $50 to be a good guess. We all know that they already restrict availability of their animated movies to keep prices and demand high. They are masters at extracting money from people with a smile, I will give them that.

Otherwise, I can't say whether the BDA would allow it or not. I would hope not.

Doug

I'll never use the regular DVD version so I don't care if they include it for free... but I sure as anything dont want to pay a penny extra for it.

Already got the Blu-ray. Great movie and incredible PQ and AQ.

Same problem I have. I have a 2 and 4 year old so the BDs were not even options for me when they came out.

I think the Combos are a nice plus for families on the go who like to play dvds on the road for their kids.

But it certainly isn't needed. HDM is supposed to replace DVD. It's not like DVD needed VHS packaged with it.

I believe Combos are HD-DVD exclusive for license reasons meaning it's not possible for Bluray to ever do that.

As for putting two copies in the case, one SD, and one BD. I doubt that would ever happen because majority of the "second disks" would be put for sale or given away to friends which would cut into the profits.

Is Shrek 3 a Combo? I have not purchased it yet as I thought it was HD DVD only. I need it to play in the car etc, so hence the hesitation.

Shrek 3 is NOT a combo release. As far as I know, Paramount (and Dreamworks) have yet to release a combo disc of any kind.

link to cover: http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?userid=99366064438006&item_id=1368024&tab=5&anchor=1#topoftabs

I had to buy Ratatouille on SD DVD because my kids would watch it way more than I would (I do think it is a good flick though).

So my question is.....

Would it be possible for Blu-Ray to include a SDDVD in the same case as a BD?

Many include a second BD for bonus features, so including a SDDVD for kid movies would be cheaper. Am I right?

I bought Shrek 3 on combo and we all love it. Kids can watch in their room, and I can watch it in HD as well.

The lack of combo's for BD actually stopped me from buying the Pixar flicks on BD.

So is it possible/legal for the BDA to institute a "combo" idea like this?

Can you post a photo of the Shrek 3 you bought? I can't find any mention to combo versions of this anywhere, can you remember where you bought it? If there is a combo version I'd be happy to buy it, but I can't find it.

From a studio standpoint the advantage of a a combo instead of two seperate discs is that it is one physical item and thus stays in the same place.

The problem with two seperate discs is that they can be physically separated and say, the DVD disc can be given away, loaned or sold, and thus could cannibalize some potential sales.

Workable combos or twin formats discs remain a potential HD DVD advantage in this regard, despite their production reliability and cost issues, since Blu-ray studios at this moment cannot release on a single hybrid disc.

Total HD development indicates that a Blu-ray flipper could be possible, but obviously would cost more than a normal Blu-ray disc.

Interesting stuff.

I believe Combos are HD-DVD exclusive for license reasons meaning it's not possible for Bluray to ever do that.

Well BD tried - JVC spearheaded that project - it failed 2X - it didn't physically work. But if it did - then all they would have to do is go to the DVD Forum and go through the process the TL Twin and TL51 just went through.

As for putting two copies in the case, one SD, and one BD. I doubt that would ever happen because majority of the "second disks" would be put for sale or given away to friends which would cut into the profits.

I believe Sony had once addressed this - they said no - for the very reasons you mention.

Interesting stuff. Got Shrek 3 at Wal-Mart. Too forum retarded to post pics. Bought it day and date. Maybe they yanked the combos early.
I'd be happy to walk you through posting some pics of your Shrek 3 Combo. I would even post them for you, if you'd like. I think we'd all like to get a look at this mysterious combo disc that apparently only you possess...

Have heard of the JVC thing, I thought it was still pre-alpha though.

Well, lets hope JVC gets the "third time's the charm" treatment.

Disney/Sony lost 3 BD sales to me due to the lack of "combos for kids" (should be a charity eh?)

Maybe a retail chain will pack them together and offer them for a reasonable price. I would have paid $35 for a duel pack of Rat or Shorts.

Am I the only one who is usually happy to see combos?
TMNT and Evan Almighty were also great for the kids!

I'd be happy to walk you through posting some pics of your Shrek 3 Combo. I would even post them for you, if you'd like. I think we'd all like to get a look at this mysterious combo disc that apparently only you possess...

I stand corrected about Shrek 3.

I was not trying to mislead.

My wife bought the HD-DVD and I never really looked at the case. I guess they were watching one of the first 2 Shreks on DVD when I peeked in on them.

I did not mean to mislead. I was just too full of turkey to look:D

All my posts have been edited and I apologize for any confusion.

I really did think it was a combo until Steeb pointed it out and I looked at the case.

Sorry:)

So, legally, it would be possible.... no?

So, legally, it would be possible.... no?

Up to the DVD Forum:D

Wonder how they feel about Principal DVD Forum Members starting up the BDA?;)

Current List of Steering Committee Members (Please note tenure of current SCM)

http://www.dvdforum.org/about-steering.htm

I am aware of who sits on the board, but would it count as an extra scan for the DVD and the BD?

Also, could B&M wrap them together and sell at a discount? Like what Wal-Mart does with new releases.

I am a neutral, and a big fan of combos for reasons I stated above. I just wish a had Rat or Shorts on HDM, but I did not want to deprive my girls (or give disney $50+ for one film).

They watch movies every night because I'm not a fan of late night cable for a 7 and 5 year old.

I am aware of who sits on the board, but would it count as an extra scan for the DVD and the BD.

Also, could B&M wrap them together and sell at a discount? Like what Wal-Mart does with new releases.

I am a neutral, and a big fan of combos for reasons I stated above. I just wish a had Rat or Shorts on HDM, but I did not want to deprive my girls (or give disney $50+ for one film).

They watch movies every night because I'm not a fan of late night cable for a 7 and 5 year old.

RED - can you clarify these two sentences? I am not sure I understand your questions.

So, legally, it would be possible.... no?
Legally, they could include a couple of diamonds, some gold rings and the movies in UMD, VHS and VideoCD, also.

But "legally" doesn't mean they will, unfortunately.

Practically speaking, it is very unlikely that you will see the DVD version these movies bundled in the Bluray pack.

The reason is mainly that studios would be concerned about the DVD copy being sold or given away by the buyer of the Bluray.

This "breakage" could be seen as a threat.

RED - can you clarify these two sentences? I am not sure I understand your questions.

No problem Lee

Wal-Mart Duel Packing new release example:

New release staring Actor X packed with really old/bad film also staring Actor X. On the shelf for the same price as stand alone new release staring Actor X.

I do believe both DVDs get a "scan"(recorded sale) for that purchase. I may be wrong, my copyright law knowledge is based in music. Maybe DVD sales get recorded a different way then CD sales. (Platinum etc.)

But, I would think DVD forum would approve; if me buying Cars, Rata, Shorts, Meet the Robinson's, Ice Age 2, ect. in the "BD combo" equated into profit for non BDA members.


rdjam,

I see your point. But if the DVD was as bare bones as possible.

IE:movie only, no extras, minimal silkscreen, how much would someone really want it on ebay?

J6P would likely assume it a bootleg. And my premise is, releasing both combo and non-combo (I did not specify this).

So, the people who pay the extra $5-10 for the combo, want it for needs other than making a buck off ebay.

By the time HDM is formally adopted (veeerrry long) as the home movie format of choice, there will be no need for these BD combos as I could afford a player for the kids.

I'm neutral BTW. Titles almost 50:50. No stock in Tosh or Sony.

I just like me some HDM, and am upset that when Blu-sclusive animated films come out:mad:, I buy the SD for my kids.:)

No problem Lee

Wal-Mart Duel Packing new release example:

New release staring Actor X packed with really old/bad film also staring Actor X. On the shelf for the same price as stand alone new release staring Actor X.

I do believe both DVDs get a "scan"(recorded sale) for that purchase. I may be wrong, my copyright law knowledge is based in music. Maybe DVD sales get recorded a different way then CD sales. (Platinum etc.)

But, I would think DVD forum would approve; if me buying Cars, Rata, Shorts, Meet the Robinson's, Ice Age 2, ect. in the "BD combo" equated into profit for non BDA members.

OK - you are asking if they can bundle a DVD copy of the same movie inside the case of the BD movie - 2 discs - 1 BD and 1 DVD - 1 BluRay case only

Or you are asking if they "tape" two cases together - 1 BD and 1 DVD.

That is not a format change like a hybrid would be. That is a marketing decision by the releasing studio. I do not believe that the DVD Forum would be involved.

OK - you are asking if they can bundle a DVD copy of the same movie inside the case of the BD movie - 2 discs - 1 BD and 1 DVD - BluRay case

That is not a format change like a hybrid would be. That is a marketing decision by the releasing studio. I do not believe that the DVD Forum would be involved.

Yes. IYO, would it not benefit the DVD forum as well? Do they (key members/patent holders) not get some type of royalty every time a DVD sells?

Either way:
Disney and Sony Animated would really benefit this I think. Not only would they sell more BDs, as exampled in a post on this thread from another member. They would also sell/scan more DVDs of the same title. Benefiting the BDA and the DVD forum (if they indeed get some type of royalty from any DVD sold).

And most importantly, it would benefit the consumer. (Pending the combos would be optional, as they should be on HD DVD too IMO)

Yes. IYO, would it not benefit the DVD forum as well? Do they (key members/patent holders) not get some type of royalty every time a DVD sells?

Either way:
Disney and Sony Animated would really benefit this I think. Not only would they sell more BDs, as exampled in a post on this thread from another member. They would also sell/scan more DVDs of the same title. Benefiting the BDA and the DVD forum (if they indeed get some type of royalty from any DVD sold).

And most importantly, it would benefit the consumer. (Pending the combos would be optional, as they should be on HD DVD too IMO)

Each company pays a license fee to the DVD Forum for the use of the DVD format/logo. I do not know how much it is or how it is computed. The name of the company is the DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation

http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/

Toshiba is the major patent holder for DVD - they get a royalty on ever DVD sold.

So they sold 65,000 copies of RatXXXX. You are suggesting they include a DVD with it? Inside the case - no case of it's own? They would be less desireable from the public than 2 cases "taped" together where you take the tape off and have a 100& BD in one hand and a 100% DVD in the other.

And they only charge you for the BD? Give you the DVD for free? How does the Forum or Toshiba make any money from a free DVD?

Are your questions aimed at the BDA coming up with their own Combo or DL/TL Twin "fighter"?

No HD DVD bashing from me. Just speculating on ways to make BD combo available since I really wanted the Pixars.

I was not clear about the "Two cases tapped together method" at B&M.

If that were to happen I would expect an extra charge. $35-40 range, and a scan for the BD and the DVD.

If they can package them both in the same case, I would also expect an added charge. Same price range as ^^^.

They DVDs in this proposed method would not be "free" just stripped down to the bare essentials to pass some saving on to the customer (as opposed to including a full featured DVD), and to put less stress on the studio concerning the other copy being sold.

See my post describing the DVD I envision being packed into the same case as the BD; No extras, minimal silkscreening, less languages, etc.

As for the TL51, I am looking forward to it. Maybe Disney will go neutral so I don't have to make far out threads like this to voice my displeasure of the need for instant doubling dipping on the pixar titles, which I will not do:)

I dont think the DVD Forum could prevent BR combos. They problem seems to be more of a physical limitation.

Blu-ray has tried for years to produce a combo disc. Even so far as making a few prototypes that successfully worked to show as demo's.

It has been said that production of regular double layer 50 g discs could be as low as 40 - 50% yields. I would imagine that similar if not worst problems arise when also trying to add a dvd layer. Additionally I think one of the differences is the thickness of the disc itself. The BR layer(s) plus the dvd layers would need to fit the same size as a dvd.

No HD DVD bashing from me. Just speculating on ways to make BD combo available since I really wanted the Pixars.

I was not clear about the "Two cases tapped together method" at B&M.

If that were to happen I would expect an extra charge. $35-40 range, and a scan for the BD and the DVD.

If they can package them both in the same case, I would also expect an added charge. Same price range as ^^^.

They DVDs in this proposed method would not be "free" just stripped down to the bare essentials to pass some saving on to the customer (as opposed to including a full featured DVD), and to put less stress on the studio concerning the other copy being sold.

See my post describing the DVD I envision being packed into the same case as the BD; No extras, minimal silkscreening, less languages, etc.

As for the TL51, I am looking forward to it. Maybe Disney will go neutral so I don't have to make far out threads like this to voice my displeasure of the need for instant doubling dipping on the pixar titles, which I will not do:)

Well Sony is on record that they will not bundle a DVD with a BD as their answer to the Combo/Twin that the HD DVD PG is using.

And we are really talking about two different fruit here - apples to oranges. Here is a scenerio to work with:

EXAMPLE:

Paramount decided to do Shrek The Third as a TL Twin. They charge $3.00 over the price of a DVD only - say $21.99 instead of $18.99.

They press out 10 million TL Twin's of this movie. The existing pressing lines can do this because it is based on DVD technology.

How could the BDA answer this?

How could the BDA answer this?

They could point out that - as long as the Twin discs consist of only three layers - either the SD DVD or the HD DVD would have to be compromised. In other words, either the SD DVD would be limited to 4.7GB or the HD DVD would be limited to 15GB. Neither scenario would be ideal, especially if the goal is to seemlessly integrate HD DVD into homes that only have SD DVD players.

The "Twin" concept will be more gimmick than anything else until they can make four-layered discs viable. Until that happens, there will always have to be compromises that wouldn't have to be made if separate versions were released. I have a feeling that if Paramount was forced to cut corners because of this limitation, it would be the unproven technology (HD DVD) that would take the hit and 15/9 discs would become the norm for twin releases. At that point, we're back to the early days of the combo disc - barebones releases of short movies. I see no reason to take a step or two backwards, just for a talking point.

Not that I can ever see Disney doing anything like it, but there are BD movies out which did include a DVD as well: Wings of Honneamise and a few other animes published in the US (same in Japan). However, those editions were very expensive indeed.

All in all I would very much like to have combos, but I fear they will always be more expensive than regular DVDs or HDMs. There is no reason for the publishers to use the same price as non-combos, economy-wise. Same reason to why I can't see HDM being priced equally to DVDs; if a HD-DVD / Blu-ray disc costs the same for the buyers, why on earth should the movie company go through the extra trouble? It's not as if the consumers will rebuy stuff they already own on DVD, seeing that now even the early-adopters (e g myself) do that.

So my question is.....

Would it be possible for Blu-Ray to include a SDDVD in the same case as a BD?



The UK BD release of Oldboy came with the SD-DVD version in the same case.

They could point out that - as long as the Twin discs consist of only three layers - either the SD DVD or the HD DVD would have to be compromised. In other words, either the SD DVD would be limited to 4.7GB or the HD DVD would be limited to 15GB. Neither scenario would be ideal, especially if the goal is to seemlessly integrate HD DVD into homes that only have SD DVD players.

The "Twin" concept will be more gimmick than anything else until they can make four-layered discs viable. Until that happens, there will always have to be compromises that wouldn't have to be made if separate versions were released. I have a feeling that if Paramount was forced to cut corners because of this limitation, it would be the unproven technology (HD DVD) that would take the hit and 15/9 discs would become the norm for twin releases. At that point, we're back to the early days of the combo disc - barebones releases of short movies. I see no reason to take a step or two backwards, just for a talking point.

I have seen it posted here at AVS by "those in the know" that a 120 minute movie will fit on a SL of DVD and the PQ will be "acceptable."

Not all movies require super duper extras in DVD Land. But the TL Twin 30/4.7 would give the releasing studio the ability to give these features to the HD section. They would still add deleted scenes and outtakes and Filmographies for the DVD layer - they take up very little room.

If you have followed my posts on this subject (many to choose from) I believe you know all the reasons why I believe it will be done.

I have seen it posted here at AVS by "those in the know" that a 120 minute movie will fit on a SL of DVD and the PQ will be "acceptable."

Not all movies require super duper extras in DVD Land. But the TL Twin 30/4.7 would give the releasing studio the ability to give these features to the HD section. They would still add deleted scenes and outtakes and Filmographies for the DVD layer - they take up very little room.

If you have followed my posts on this subject (many to choose from) I believe you know all the reasons why I believe it will be done.

I can't imagine that any studio would risk pissing off a huge portion of their customer base (the SD DVD customers) by increasing the price of the discs while at the same time cutting the capacity in half (which forces the quality to be lowered and/or extras to be omitted, which will piss off the customers even more.) If we look at the precedents set by the early combo releases that only supported three total layers (two on one side, one on the other) the decision has already been made - one layer for HD, two for SD. It's happened on several releases already (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, Unleased, etc.) and there's no reason to believe that their position has changed.

Also, I think you're over-estimating what can be stuffed onto a single-layer SD DVD. 4.7GB is not a lot of space, especially when you start adding commentaries, alternate language tracks, elaborate menus, etc. The studios are not going to limit themselves (and their compressionists) to 4.7GB on major releases (like Shrek the Third, Transformers, etc.) on the hopes that it might help HD DVD win the format war.

I know you like to believe that these twin discs will end the format war. I just happen to disagree. Imo, as long as the twin discs are limited to three layers, they will never be able to replace SD DVD releases. I think the twin discs will end up being just another gimmicky idea that never really went anywhere, kinda like the TotalHD discs Warner was working on. Sure, we might see a release here or there, but they will be the exception, not the rule.

I can't imagine that any studio would risk pissing off a huge portion of their customer base (the SD DVD customers) by increasing the price of the discs while at the same time cutting the capacity in half (which forces the quality to be lowered and/or extras to be omitted, which will piss off the customers even more.)

Very easy work around - already being done today:

1. TL Twin Release- HD is loaded with extra's while DVD is movie only with little or no extras.

2. DVD Special Edition Release - usually 2 disc set.

#1 for $3 more allows those who desire, to make their purchase future proof. They get to see the movie

#2 for those who could care less for HD.

I believe SHREK 3 came out in 3 versions:

1. WS
2. FS
3. WS Special Edition

If we look at the precedents set by the early combo releases that only supported three total layers (two on one side, one on the other) the decision has already been made - one layer for HD, two for SD. It's happened on several releases already (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, Unleased, etc.) and there's no reason to believe that their position has changed.

Was this done because all the extras were in 480? We seem to be moving to extras being done in HD.

Also, I think you're over-estimating what can be stuffed onto a single-layer SD DVD. 4.7GB is not a lot of space, especially when you start adding commentaries, alternate language tracks, etc. The studios are not going to limit themselves (and their compressionists) to 4.7GB on major releases (like Shrek the Third, Transformers, etc.) on the hopes that it might help HD DVD win the format war.

I do not know what movie they would release on a Twin. Maybe catalog titles with improvements. As long as the movie fits on the 4.7 layer. I am not a compressionist but people here have said that it will fit with some room to spare. Would probably be sparse on any extras that took up space like languages or subtitles or such. And there are MANY movies in the 95 to 110 minute range.

I know you like to believe that these twin discs will end the format war. I just happen to disagree. Imo, as long as the twin discs are limited to three layers, they will never be able to replace SD DVD releases. I think the twin discs will end up being just another gimmicky idea that never really went anywhere, kinda like the TotalHD discs Warner was working on. Sure, we might see a release here or there, but they will be the exception, not the rule.

I understand - we disagree - no problem. Only time will tell.

As far as replacement of DVD? Not for that intended purpose. Think of it as an augmentation - an addition to, as opposed to a total replacement.

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but the UK BD of OldBoy contains an SD DVD version.

Steve W

Very easy work around - already being done today:

1. TL Twin Release- HD is loaded with extra's while DVD is movie only with little or no extras.

2. DVD Special Edition Release - usually 2 disc set.

#1 for $3 more allows those who desire, to make their purchase future proof. They get to see the movie

#2 for those who could care less for HD.

I believe SHREK 3 came out in 3 versions:

1. WS
2. FS
3. WS Special Edition
Even the single-disc versions of Shrek the Third came with an audio commentary, both English and Spanish language soundtracks, and multiple other extras (including music videos.) Even excluding the extras that could be moved to a second disc (negating the benefits of having both a barebones release and a special edition version) I doubt they could squeeze the full movie with three soundtracks (and animated menus - studios love to use animated menus) into 4.7GB without compromising quality.

With your scenario above, the people wanting to buy the single-disc SD DVD are getting less content than they would be with the current system, yet they're paying a premium. They're either forced to pay more (than they do now) for the two-disc special edition or they have to pay more for the twin version that has no special features (less than what's currently offered on the basic version of Shrek the Third.)

Of course, with your scenario above, we no longer have only one version of the title, so we're back to where we are anyway. Also, you're forgetting that the studios sell a ton of fullscreen DVDs, so this would have to be taken into consideration as well.

Like I said before, I don't see this working without four layer twin discs, and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed. Since there's little chance of seeing four layer discs (in a viable form, at least) any time soon, I'd say there's little hope of the twin being the savior you think it will be.
Was this done because all the extras were in 480? We seem to be moving to extras being done in HD.
This was done because 30/9 discs weren't quite ready yet (they were close, since they came out shortly after.) As to why they decided to go with 15/9 over 30/5, I can only speculate: I think it was because it was easier to make the movies look great in HD with only 15GB than it would be to make it look great in SD with only 5GB. Whatever the reason, it's been shown that when faced with that particular issue (only three layers available for both HD and SD versions) the studios will opt to give the HD version one layer and the SD version two.
I understand - we disagree - no problem. Only time will tell.

As far as replacement of DVD? Not for that intended purpose. Think of it as an augmentation - an addition to, as opposed to a total replacement.
If it's only going to be an augmentation, it's really not needed imo. We already have the combo disc, which is superior in that it allows both SD and HD versions to have two layers (no compromises.) I see the twin discs as nothing but a gimmick and see no reason to give up a layer (be it SD or HD) just to have both versions on one side of the disc.

The UK BD release of Oldboy came with the SD-DVD version in the same case.

Good to hear. Bring on the Pixar and all animated titltes in this form!:D

For the record:

This thread was not started to quibble over TL51, TL Twins, or anything to do with red vs. blu. I enjoy both formats and have no dogs in this race.

I was just speculating on how BD can include a SDDVD in the same package, mainly for children's movies.

Now Sony, Disney, Fox; LISTEN UP!

<kamspy going into Stiller in Dodgeball voice>

DO IT!

I dont think the DVD Forum could prevent BR combos. They problem seems to be more of a physical limitation.

Blu-ray has tried for years to produce a combo disc. Even so far as making a few prototypes that successfully worked to show as demo's.

It has been said that production of regular double layer 50 g discs could be as low as 40 - 50% yields. I would imagine that similar if not worst problems arise when also trying to add a dvd layer. Additionally I think one of the differences is the thickness of the disc itself. The BR layer(s) plus the dvd layers would need to fit the same size as a dvd.

Tom

They don't have to be on the same disc. Just packaged together.

Even the single-disc versions of Shrek the Third came with an audio commentary, both English and Spanish language soundtracks, and multiple other extras (including music videos.) Even excluding the extras that could be moved to a second disc (negating the benefits of having both a barebones release and a special edition version) I doubt they could squeeze the full movie with three soundtracks (and animated menus - studios love to use animated menus) into 4.7GB without compromising quality.

Again - unknown to me. I do hope that someone "in the know" will join us on this discussion so we could get some hard facts. What can and can't be done based on the storage limits.

With your scenario above, the people wanting to buy the single-disc SD DVD are getting less content than they would be with the current system, yet they're paying a premium. They're either forced to pay more (than they do now) for the two-disc special edition or they have to pay more for the twin version that has no special features (less than what's currently offered on the basic version of Shrek the Third.)

The Twin, IMO, is for the person who is either planning on getting an HDTV in the next year (or less). It is also for the HD HT owner who can't play the movie anyplace he doesn't own an HD DVD player - kids rooms, laptop, car, boat and friends house. I believe Kamspy felt this would be very helpful to him. And all others who need the ability to play not only HD DVD's but more important - DVD's.

The Twin is idiot proof. If a child understands that the shiny side goes down and the picture goes up - they can pop the disc in and no decision is asked for. Auto Start makes sure that if in a DVD player - the movie starts (already been verified by Twin owners). If it is placed in an HD DVD player - a choice menu comes up - HD or SD (also verified).

No chance of loading the wrong side - VERY important.

Of course, with your scenario above, we no longer have only one version of the title, so we're back to where we are anyway. Also, you're forgetting that the studios sell a ton of fullscreen DVDs, so this would have to be taken into consideration as well.

Steeb . . . if I had ALL the answers - I would be making money at it, opposed to posting about it:D

Fullscreen is a class by itself. Unless they make a player that can do P&S on the fly from WS data - IMO - we are stuck with these. Do all major titles come out in FS?

Like I said before, I don't see this working without four layer twin discs, and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed. Since there's little chance of seeing four layer discs (in a viable form, at least) any time soon, I'd say there's little hope of the twin being the savior you think it will be.

As I said - your opinion differs then mine. I see why, and I fully understand, your point of view. And I am a BIG believer of the old adage;

"To foretell the future - look back to the past."

Only this time there is a war on for market supremecy. I believe that changes the boundaries . . . the goal posts so to speak.

This was done because 30/9 discs weren't viable yet (they were close, since they came out shortly after.) As to why they decided to go with 15/9 over 30/5, I can only speculate: I think it was because it was easier to make the movies look great in HD with only 15GB than it would be to make it look great in SD with only 5GB. Whatever the reason, it's been shown that when faced with that particular issue (only three layers available for both HD and SD versions) the studios will opt to give the HD version one layer and the SD version two.

If an option is not available - we don't know how they will use it when it is given to them.

I started a thread on the TL51 because I saw that not only is it a 51 GB HD DVD. It is also a 34/17 GB HD DVD. 34 GB for the movie . . 17GB for all the extras. My observation - that is all.

If it's only going to be an augmentation, it's really not needed imo. We already have the combo disc, which is superior in that it allows both SD and HD versions to have two layers (no compromises.) I see the twin discs as nothing but a gimmick and see no reason to give up a layer (be it SD or HD) just to have both versions on one side of the disc.

I refer you to my rebuttle above.

Tom

They don't have to be on the same disc. Just packaged together.

I think seperate discs would cause a problem for studios from people selling there exta copies

The Twin, IMO, is for the person who is either planning on getting an HDTV in the next year (or less). It is also for the HD HT owner who can't play the movie anyplace he doesn't own an HD DVD player - kids rooms, laptop, car, boat and friends house. I believe Kamspy felt this would be very helpful to him. And all others who need the ability to play not only HD DVD's but more important - DVD's.
The scenario you offered was for two versions of Shrek 3 to be released - a twin (30/5) and a two-disc special edition version, but your scenario does not fit the studio's wants/needs. They wanted to release two different single disc versions (one fullscreen and one widescreen) for those who wanted only the movie and a few extras (commentary, Spanish soundtrack, music videos, etc.) and a two-disc special edition SD DVD PLUS an HD DVD version (non-combo.) Obviously, their research has shown that there's a market for each of these different versions (the smallest being the HD market) yet you didn't take that into account.
The Twin is idiot proof. If a child understands that the shiny side goes down and the picture goes up - they can pop the disc in and no decision is asked for. Auto Start makes sure that if in a DVD player - the movie starts (already been verified by Twin owners). If it is placed in an HD DVD player - a choice menu comes up - HD or SD (also verified).

No chance of loading the wrong side - VERY important.
Yes, there are advantages to the twin, but it also has major flaws (that outweigh, imo, any gains made from having art on one side of the disc.) Twins will never replace SD DVD versions and they are inferior capacity-wise to the current combos. Imo, twins are a gimmick - nothing more.
I started a thread on the TL51 because I saw that not only is it a 51 GB HD DVD. It is also a 34/17 GB HD DVD. 34 GB for the movie . . 17GB for all the extras. My observation - that is all.
Calling a 51GB HD DVD a 34/17GB HD DVD makes no sense to me. It would be like calling a 30GB HD DVD a 15/15GB HD DVD. The space is there, regardless of whether it's used for extras or the movie itself.

The scenario you offered was for two versions of Shrek 3 to be released - a twin (30/5) and a two-disc special edition version, but your scenario does not fit the studio's wants/needs. They wanted to release two different single disc versions (one fullscreen and one widescreen) for those who wanted only the movie and a few extras (commentary, Spanish soundtrack, music videos, etc.) and a two-disc special edition SD DVD PLUS an HD DVD version (non-combo.) Obviously, their research has shown that there's a market for each of these different versions (the smallest being the HD market) yet you didn't take that into account.

Yes - that was what I was showing. Just as you outlined, Just need to add one more addition - remove the WS only edition and replace it with a TL Twin. Here is what is accompilished:

1. Got rid of a package - WS only DVD.

2. Give people two versions - SD and HD - works in any player - DVD, HD DVD and BD

As I said - you have to believe that even with some of the compromises - it is a better saleable product. They can make more money doing it. If you don't believe this then we have reached a stalemate.

Yes, there are advantages to the twin, but it also has major flaws (that outweigh, imo, any gains made from having art on one side of the disc.) Twins will never replace SD DVD versions and they are inferior capacity-wise to the current combos. Imo, twins are a gimmick - nothing more.

We agree to disagree;)

Calling a 51GB HD DVD a 34/17GB HD DVD makes no sense to me. It would be like calling a 30GB HD DVD a 15/15GB HD DVD. The space is there, regardless of whether it's used for extras or the movie itself.

I was speculating about the intended use for the TL51 because most of the posts seem to be of the opinion of long run times. As there are only about 50 movies that fall into this category -IMO - that was not the intended use of the TL51. And I, who pride myself on being up to the minute on the TL51, still have heard nor read anything, that supports an increase in the speed of the drive.

Just to "fit" the facts - depending on intended use, the TL51 is a 51GB, a 34/17 GB and a 17/17/17 GB disc.

Yes - that was what I was showing. Just as you outlined, Just need to add one more addition - remove the WS only edition and replace it with a TL Twin. Here is what is accompilished:

1. Got rid of a package - WS only DVD.

2. Give people two versions - SD and HD - works in any player - DVD, HD DVD and BD
It also accomplished:
3. Cut the available disc space for the SD version in half, likely causing extras to be left off and/or the quality to be lowered.

So with your plan, anyone who wants the OAR version on SD DVD would have to pay a premium over the fullscreen version, while losing features that the fullscreen version offers. Wow, sounds like a deal to me. :rolleyes:

Not to mention the fact that there's no way the studios are going to be willing to sell the twin version for ~$20 when the HD DVD only version is $27.99 (street.) So now, the people wanting the OAR version have to pay close to double the price that the people wanting the fullscreen version have to, plus they get less features. Even better deal!

BTW - I've looked and I can't find any mention of a two-disc version of Shrek the Third on SD DVD - it appears that the only SD versions are single disc.
As I said - you have to believe that even with some of the compromises - it is a better saleable product.
I do not believe that.
They can make more money doing it. If you don't believe this then we have reached a stalemate.
I don't believe this, so we must have reached a stalemate. There's no way that the general public will stand for what you've proposed. You've apparently decided that it's perfectly fine to screw over SD DVD owners who prefer OAR, simply because you hope it will help your format of choice win the format war. I don't agree and I doubt you'll find support from many SD DVD only consumers out there. Since they vastly outnumber the HD owners, I doubt the studios are going to give them the finger. YMMV.
Just to "fit" the facts - depending on intended use, the TL51 is a 51GB, a 34/17 GB and a 17/17/17 GB disc.
I've never seen anyone (besides you) use a "/" to separate layers when discussing discs. I've seen 30/9 used for discs with 30GB on one side, 9GB on the other, but I've never seen a 9GB disc referred to as a 4.5/4.5 or a 30GB called a 15/15 disc. If you want to continue to be the only one calling a 51GB disc a 34/17, go right ahead - more power to you.

Ummm....

This thread is for the legality/possibilities of BD/SD combo packages.

Not steeb vs. lee; blu vs. red banter.

no offense to steeb or lee, but you guys can start your own "steeb vs lee" thread, and I would probley read it.

Ummm....

This thread is for the legality/possibilities of BD/SD combo packages.

Not steeb vs. lee; blu vs. red banter.

no offense to steeb or lee, but you guys can start your own "steeb vs lee" thread, and I would probley read it.

Your question has already been answered. It's legal but not likely. If you want an SD copy of a Disney movie, you're going to have to buy it. Disney's not going to give it to you for free (or for a few extra dollars.) If you want two versions of the movie bad enough, buy two versions. It's that simple.

/thread

Your question has already been answered. It's legal but not likely. If you want an SD copy of a Disney movie, you're going to have to buy it. Disney's not going to give it to you for free (or for a few extra dollars.) If you want two versions of the movie bad enough, buy two versions. It's that simple.

/thread

It worked with Oldboy in the U.K.

BD would be wise to counter HDDVDs combo advantage

It worked with Oldboy in the U.K.

BD would be wise to counter HDDVDs combo advantage

Oldboy isn't Cars or Ratatouille. It's an obscure foreign film that most Americans have never even heard of, let alone seen. Disney keeps the prices of their SD DVDs high, especially the Pixar movies. A quick look at Amazon shows that all of the older Pixar movies (Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Monsters, Inc., etc.) are still going for $19.99 (street.) Do you honestly think that Disney, the studio that periodically locks up its movies to help them retain their value, is going to suddenly give you a free (or extremely cheap) version that could easily be given away or sold? Not likely.

It would help Disney sell the BDs.