Hi all,

I read these forums all the time, but rarely post (usually to ask questions specific to my system). After reading the following two articles, I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss CAT MBX's approach to subwoofage:

http://hedmag.com/Installations/Installation-of-the-Year-2007.asp

http://hedmag.com/Installations/A-Room-of-His-Own.asp

Two things jump out at you immediately: the price of these installations (running up to several millions of dollars) and the number of subwoofers. They do not get into the details too much in these articles, but I recall from previous reading that only a fraction of these subs actually put out bass you can hear. The majority are putting out reverse waves that eliminate room resonances and equalize the bass. Specifically, an installer mentioned that it was designed to reduce overhanging boomy bass and prevent it from saturating the room for too long.

Now, while I love researching subs and bass, I am no expert...most of you probably know a lot more than me. That setup, to me, sounds like they have a lot of extremely expensive actively powered bass traps. If you can afford it, I'm sure it is extremely effective, but it seems that they are getting declining returns there.

In the second article, the installer mentions that it is as close to 120db as you can get. This puzzled me. If you have a reasonably sized room and purchase between 2 and 4 units of any solid sub (think of ANY of the names that get kicked around here all the time), you can probably achieve 120db through most of the bass spectrum. Throw in room treatments and some equalization and I would think you are good to go. Why do we need 24 subs, most of which seem to be dedicated to equalization?

Getting close to 120db with no distortion or listening fatigue is the trick. If you could hear one of these setups you would instantly become enlightened, most likely amazed.

24 subwoofers. "They're all 12-inchers," he says. "I'd rather use a lot of smaller subs than a few large ones because the smaller ones are quicker and more efficient."

Hmmmm theres that word again... smaller ones are QUICKER...


Cool looking place.... heheheheh 3 transformers just for the HT... Sweet... :)

Hi all,

I read these forums all the time, but rarely post (usually to ask questions specific to my system). After reading the following two articles, I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss CAT MBX's approach to subwoofage:

http://hedmag.com/Installations/Installation-of-the-Year-2007.asp

http://hedmag.com/Installations/A-Room-of-His-Own.asp

Two things jump out at you immediately: the price of these installations (running up to several millions of dollars) and the number of subwoofers. They do not get into the details too much in these articles, but I recall from previous reading that only a fraction of these subs actually put out bass you can hear. The majority are putting out reverse waves that eliminate room resonances and equalize the bass. Specifically, an installer mentioned that it was designed to reduce overhanging boomy bass and prevent it from saturating the room for too long.

Now, while I love researching subs and bass, I am no expert...most of you probably know a lot more than me. That setup, to me, sounds like they have a lot of extremely expensive actively powered bass traps. If you can afford it, I'm sure it is extremely effective, but it seems that they are getting declining returns there.

In the second article, the installer mentions that it is as close to 120db as you can get. This puzzled me. If you have a reasonably sized room and purchase between 2 and 4 units of any solid sub (think of ANY of the names that get kicked around here all the time), you can probably achieve 120db through most of the bass spectrum. Throw in room treatments and some equalization and I would think you are good to go. Why do we need 24 subs, most of which seem to be dedicated to equalization?


If you want to know what a really great sub set-up would include, it would start with a pair of Thigpen Rotary subs. The Thigpens are flat down to 1Hz, and work up to about 25Hz. A pair of $1,600 Epik Conquests combined with a pair of Thigpen Rotary's would be better than what is in the installations you have posted.

A pair of Thigpens and dual Epik Conquests ends up costing about $35,000 installed. There are a lot of mega-buck installations that do not include the Thigpen Rotary. The buyers of the meg-buck installs don't know about the Thigpen Rotary, so the installers just put in what they are familiar with. (Things that look impressive but can't begin to put out more than 110 db below 10Hz).

I would tend to agree with you. I have an impressive system, but nothing that will put out much useful bass below 18hz (although I am looking into one of those Conquests you mentioned)...so I am ignorant to the benefits of solid output in that range. But if the human ear can't detect it, wouldn't some cheap chair shaking transducers do the same thing for you as a Thigpen Rotary? As I said, I wouldn't know and I assume I'm wrong; I'm just wondering.

That first room is great. I love the look. I actually own similar ADA gear. The fact is there is not very useful information below 15 hz and if there is, it is not very powerful. The shakers would do the job but they will not pressurize the room. You guys are correct that you do not need all those woofers or all that much money to reach 15-80 hz at 120 db's. Below 15 hz and you need the thigpen, but there is not enough info at those frquencies to validate the thigpen. BTW I want those big brass doors.

That first room is great. I love the look. I actually own similar ADA gear. The fact is there is not very useful information below 15 hz and if there is, it is not very powerful. The shakers would do the job but they will not pressurize the room. You guys are correct that you do not need all those woofers or all that much money to reach 15-80 hz at 120 db's. Below 15 hz and you need the thigpen, but there is not enough info at those frquencies to validate the thigpen. BTW I want those big brass doors.

Can you show a pic of a thigpen?

It looks like a giant fan. You have probably seen pics.

Can you show a pic of a thigpen?

http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm

"Microphones have low frequency capability that far exceeds the low frequency output of current subwoofers. In many cases infrasonic information is in a movie soundtrack or recording, it is not being reproduced by the sound system.

A missing link in sound reproduction. Experience special effects like never before. If you want to hear and feel 4-5 hertz fundamental frequency from a helicopter rotor, the low frequency rumble of wind, the space of a concert hall or infrasonic information contained in an explosion, this is the only woofer technology available."

That first room is great. I love the look. I actually own similar ADA gear. The fact is there is not very useful information below 15 hz and if there is, it is not very powerful. The shakers would do the job but they will not pressurize the room. You guys are correct that you do not need all those woofers or all that much money to reach 15-80 hz at 120 db's. Below 15 hz and you need the thigpen, but there is not enough info at those frquencies to validate the thigpen. BTW I want those big brass doors.


Why do you think that Keith Yates has a Thigpen Rotary? Have you seen the shootout that Keith Yates did? The shootout that Keith Yates did included the Revel Performa B15, the Wilson Audio Watchdog, the Kleis S15A, the Genelec HTS S6, the Adire Sidhartha, the Bag End S21SE, the ServoDrive Contrabass, the SRT Hydrostatic HS-12S, the Codrive CB1, the Snell ICS Sub24, the Triad InRoom Platinum, and the Velodyne DD18.

Keith Yates can choose the best subwoofers on the market and he choose to obtain the Thigpen Rotary to provide response down to 1 Hz to supplement his subwoofers that play from 25 Hz on up.

I am glad that you like your six 18 inch subwoofers, however, having the capability to put out over 110 db down to 1 Hz is something that some people who have the money to spend are highly interested in.

Somehow I doubt that there are all that many rich folks fretting over their single digit frequency response considering that there are only a tiny handful of movies with any content down there. Even those movies only have a scene or two with a couple of seconds of bass in the single digits. It's a waste of time and money.

Wow, just wow. That first guys house/HT is just insane. These people have way too much spare money on their hands. :eek:

Wow, just wow. That first guys house/HT is just insane. These people have way too much spare money on their hands. :eek:

:D
Those two articles made me green with envy at first, but I'm not really sure I would want to live like that even if I could...seems like a bit much. They seemed to have just crossed the line from living well and richly straight into conspicuous consumption.