I've been on a mission to find a new camcorder to replace an older Sony D8 (TRV310). I'd really like to find something that has similar features without having to spend more than $1000

I'd like a camcorder to :
- be tapeless
- have a hotshoe
- have 0 lux capability / Infrared
- have a manual focus ring
- have an exposure control (a roller on the back of the D8)
- a mic input / headphone output

here are some models I've researched (in order as best as possible)
SD
Panasonic SDR-H18 (no frills HDD unit less than $400)
Panasonic SDR-H200 (3ccd version of above)
-almost bought both of them, but I really want HiDef
so......

HD
JVC GZ-HD3 (less than stellar reviews)
Panasonic HDC-SD5 (SDHC / AVCHD - includes DVD Burner) - bought it / returning it
Canon HG-10 (HDD version of coveted HV-20)
Canon HV-20 (MiniDV ... highly acclaimed)
Sony HDR-SR7 (.....good camera, overpriced?)
---if AVCHD were in better shape, I'd feel more comfortable---

WHAT I DID:
I bought the Panasonic HDC-SD5 w/ VW-BN1 DVD Burner for less than $1k

What I liked:
the SDHC format
why? no moving parts
why not? SDHC cards still pricey. fill up quick in Full HD mode

Style / Size
this thing is probably the smallest and lightest HD camcorder on the market. it fits perfectly in big or small hands
-however, in order to shrink the size, Panasonic decided to exclude several of the better features found in the previous model the HDC-SD1
-the unit is very clean and very sleak .. bordering on sexy

The DVD Burner
AVCHD can be recorded with ease on standard DVD's and played on BluRay players that support the format (Ps3). Video is very nice .... if you shot in good light

WHAT I DON"T LIKE:
-Options are weak
-manual controls also weak. manual focus poor and slow
-low light performance can be barely adequate but ONLY if you are properly white balanced in the environment and have the shutter and iris in near extreme ranges
-other than that, low light unacceptable - better results with the D8
-Magic Pix (1 lux operation) is useless, objects look like ghosts in strobe
-no video light
-stereo mic located on TOP records more of the shooter than the subject
-no hotshoe
-no external mic input
-no exposure like my D8


AVCHD
I Really haven't had any issues with the format
I've been able to remove the SD card and insert it into the Ps3 and play files back in 1080i
with the use of a card reader, the SDHC / AVCHD files import easily into iMovie '08 ... however, import render is SLOOOOOOW and I have the impression that there is some converting/downsampling taking place
FILES ARE HUGE
I don't get it ...... I don't see the advantages of AVCHD at this point
it's great that I can do simple 'clip' edits on board the camera, and then easily view them on Blu Ray players, whether by inserting the original SDHC or after burning the AVCHD on a (standard) DVD using the included Burner

-however, I'd like to add title/thumbnails/menus/audio/etc.....
which although possible, there is just way too much processing needing to take place



-----------------------------------------------------------
HAVE I GOT THIS RIGHT, or have I got it all wrong ?

I'd love to have the Canon Hv20, more often than not critics claim it's the best HD camcorder on the market ...... but I Really don't want to get into another tape based format, that may be on the downswing of it's career

I'd love to have an HDD/Flash based HD camcorder, but the nagging quirks with the AVCHD codec, the crushing compression and hit or miss editing options make me wonder if it's really worth the hassle

I really don't want ANY dvd based recorder, including the newly released Blu-Ray units from Hitachi (althought the HDD/Blu units look intriguing)


I have concluded that right now just isn't the right time to purchase a new camcorder ..... something tells me that the market is currently in a transition. I have a sneaking suspicion that a camcorder that pulls it all together is right around the corner .... the Canon HG-20 perhaps ? (there is no such monster ... but a device with the quality of the MiniDV based HV-20 with either HDD/Flash storage in HDV format and not AVCHD would be ideal)



PLEASE !
If anyone can sort this mess out for me, I'll be sure to send good karma your way. I'd like to present the Mrs. with a new memory maker for Christmas. but I just don't think what I'm looking for is out ther and I'm better off just sticking with the Dinosaur8 until the HD format is refined

HELP ME OBI-WAN

PuckDaddy,

You have been doing your homework, which is good.

Sounds like you are in quandary, in what to do.


Of course there are drawbacks to all of the camcorders.

On the other hand, you can wait, wait, and wait some more until the "right" thing comes along.

You need a memory maker now, and I would make it HD, SD is not even an option for me anymore.

Good luck, and just bite the bullet now.

Thanks for the reply
and I did take the plunge - sorta

I may just need to re-evaluate

as far as I've seen it
the list in order of yummy looks like :

Canon HV20
Sony SR-7
Panasonic SD1 / SD5
Canon HG10
and somewhere further down the JVC's

does this look right?


ANY SUGGESTIONS ?

Canon HV20
Sony SR-7
Panasonic SD1 / SD5
Canon HG10
and somewhere further down the JVC's

does this look right?



It does. That would be my list for cameras below 1000 bucks. I went with the HV20 but the other choices are also very good. Better than that only prosumer cameras costing much more.

Sergio

ironically, or oddly enough (however one might like to look at it), something makes me just want to get the Mrs. something easy and useful with no fuss ... which might lead me back to one of my original SD offerings in the Panasonic SDR-H200 3ccd/HDD unit
or the SDR-H18 for $200 less
they are both on sale right now ... somewhere between $300 - $600

why would I do this ? :confused:
for one - price / ease of use / faster transfer than AVCHD / better compatability with everyone else in the family who has yet to aquire HDTV (slackers!)
I've come across some stellar reviews for BOTH cameras
and Cnet has the H18 as #5 of their Top 5 (subjectively as a budget camcorder)

or I can just stick with the D8 and get some new tapes :(

Dude, I apologize in advance that I have no "input" to offer on this, but I just wanted to add my voice to your frustration. I started camcorder research several months ago, and I understand (as most AVS folks do) a fair amount about digital video formats. My frustrations are nearly identical to yours!

Here is my "wish list" of features for a consumer-grade purchase:

- small form factor (easy to hold, carry, take on trips)
- high resolution capture (720 is nice, 1080 would be ideal)
- widescreen aspect ratio capture (for reals, not anamorphic)
- progressive capture (for example having a 24p mode)
- random access storage (tapes are annoying, so is realtime logging)
- excellent automatic features (for grab and shoot on the go)
- good to very good manual features (for more deliberate shooting)
- excellent fast motion performance (minimal artifacts or skipping)
- decent to good low light performance (sometimes this is necessary)
- external mic input (let's face it, all onboard mics suck, it's a given)
- easy to edit (why on earth can't this be simple)

Unfortunately, the camera I describe above doesn't exist at all for any amount of money, period (not unless you consder a RED plus a powerful notebook computer and RAID box to have a "small" form factor). It doesn't sound so hard does it? But no, it is, it's frustrating!

SD falls right out of the conversation because despite the wonderfulness of the "every frame is a real frame" DV format (practically perfect in every way, just like Mary Poppins) the bottom line is they lack the resolution I want and of course, involve tape.

AVCHD cameras just aren't "there" yet. They seem like a great combination of the above at first glance but then you realize they all have pretty poor fast motion performance due to the long GOP and (relatively) low data rate being used for the MPEG4 stream. The random access storage is so damn sexy that it makes you very badly want to plug your ears and sing LA LA LA LA very loudly to yourself whenever someone points these issues out, but it just isn't happening yet. Cameras supporting this format need to mature.

HDV cameras still seem to be the "compromise" platform of choice. But what a compromise! Sure, you get higher resolution than DV and you get better fast motion than AVCHD, but do you get better fast motion performance than DV had years ago? No! You don't, because no matter how high a data rate you've got the MPEG2 is still a GOP format. You have to log footage in real time like DV, but then you have to use an intermediate codec like AVCHD (don't tell me you can edit MPEG2 natively, you simply can't if you're picky about how every cut looks). You only get truly progressive capture out of a handful of models, so you have to look carefully. Also, bottom line, it's 2007 and these things use cumbersome delicate expensive short-lived physically obnoxious magnetic tape! Does anyone HATE this ancient technology as much as I do? Maybe not, I dunno. :rolleyes:

I think I'm going to be getting an HV20 myself, but I'm not happy about it, and I hope I can replace it in another year or two with something that doesn't exist yet. It's really annoying that simply to advance products as fast as possible, the digital video industry seems to have taken gross missteps in how to technologically move beyond DV. In an age where we now have huge hard drives and crazy-fast processors there's no reason not to "start over" with high definition and invent something that's interframe and high resolution and tapeless, except of course that all the companies are already too far down the rabbithole with the current "wrong idea" formats.

Sorry about the rant, like I said, it's frustrating...

good post khyron
it's painful to admit, but the market just doesn't have a solution for us

Yeah, I agree with all the points.

I have had an HG10 now for a few weeks. The video quality is excellent. The mic is just so-so. It's nice and small, and has decent storage in it's 40GB HD, but I'm so concerned about damaging the HD, I really feel like I have to be SO careful with it. I guess that's a good thing, but, I wish I could FEEL like it's a little more rugged. (Note, I'm not saying it's not rugged. I really have no idea how much abuse it can take. I just hope I don't have to find out the hard way.)

Anyway, the AVCHD format.. I'm not so sure about it.. Decoders seem buggy. The third party available ones seem to have problems. (ffdshow crashes. CoreAVC is buggy too, and the stuff that came with the camera also crashes my PC.) An upcoming vacation effectively necessitated my taking the plunge now, but I can see myself upgrading to whatever's the latest and greatest in about 2 or 3 years time. (hopefully, we'll be talking about full 1920x1080x60i / 24p, if not 60p (doubt it) by then with decent sized sensors (i.e. good low light) at AVCHD bit rates of 20-24MBPS, with support for the codec virtually built into mainstream OS'es.). Oh, also, of course, by then, it would be all solid state with SDHC cards at 32GB or higher...

All we have today are compromises... Granted, the video quality of some of these cameras is truly stunning (in my opinion, the HG10 included). But there are some things I wish were a little different.

I guess we have to be patient.

- Mike