any news on those new 8" tubes?

and what about the 9" tubes ?



Michael

Could you refresh my memory? I seem to remember something being said about them. I know Scott told me once that when VDC has to start making the replacement tubes that the price would probably rise. I would assume that these tubes would probably be pretty expensive.

Could you refresh my memory? I seem to remember something being said about them. I know Scott told me once that when VDC has to start making the replacement tubes that the price would probably rise. I would assume that these tubes would probably be pretty expensive.


VDC developed 4K res tubes for it's 8" machines was reported here a few months ago.

would be interesting to know how far they are in the development of the 9" tubes.


Michael

I inquired about these a few months ago. I was told by VDC to get P19LUG's

The tubes they used for the 8500HR are made by Lexel Imaging, which is a VDC subsidiary. I don't know if there's a 9" version but I don't doubt that such a thing is possible. I saw Scott's prototype in action, cleanly resolving 2048x2048 with an impressive MTF.


CJ

The tubes they used for the 8500HR are made by Lexel Imaging, which is a VDC subsidiary. I don't know if there's a 9" version but I don't doubt that such a thing is possible. I saw Scott's prototype in action, cleanly resolving 2048x2048 with an impressive MTF.


CJ

so Scott, do you have ANY news about the tubes ?

Michael

A couple of 9" tubes were made. Attached is a crappy pic of checkerboard made of one pixel/one line elements at QXGA (2048 x 1536 @ 60Hz). If you look close you can see scan lines. So far, no major customer has committed to buying these so they are on hold as of this moment.

Scott

A couple of 9" tubes were made. Attached is a crappy pic of checkerboard made of one pixel/one line elements at QXGA (2048 x 1536 @ 60Hz). If you look close you can see scan lines. So far, no major customer has committed to buying these so they are on hold as of this moment.

Scott


great to hear you produced a few.

are you willing to disclose what the price point would have been for them ?

Thanks

Michael

Nobody ever told me what they would cost. The 8" tubes needed 3 isolated DC-DC converters (500VDC) added to the G-2 outputs from the HVPS to boost the G-2 levels over 1100V. That added several hundred dollars to the cost. The 9" ones were drop in replacements. Probably significantly higher price than the mass produced 'LUGs.

Scott

Here is a thread discussing the pj. (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751352&highlight=laser)

Hmm.. 2 sets of these and some video chain upgrades for G90s..

Mike, pretty please? :)

We looked at the G90 service manual, and came away with several things. one being the limitation on parts. usually when doing R&D for mods to a product, you'll need a little room for mis-haps and fiddling. Since parts are so scarce with the G90, that could cause a problem for this process. And also because of the limitation of boards and such, if a board that has been modded failed and had to go back to Sony, I'm not sure they would attempt a repair.

Ont the other hand, there are a few things that could make for improvement in the video chain of a G90. And to start, If the circuit that allows the video chain to route in the transcoder and decoder circuits were bypassed and the BNC's or Input slots were tied directly to the next stage in the video chain. that should make an Improvement. likewise, the 'Gamma" chip should be considered for removal or bypassing, because it makes no sense to have it in there when there's no know benefit from its use. Especially with high end video, the goal is a short video chain with less amps or circuits as possible.

I know when these CRT's projectors were designed, they had computer graphics and display in mind, and to have went further as to what I've been trying to do and the things that tse has done to the stuff he had in the oven last year and this year, would have pushed the profit factor higher than any company would have been comfortable with.

Also, there's the Marquee. Not much has changed from it's original design over 14 years ago, but It's till high on the totem pole. And the more a play around with it, the more I continue a like it. It's like a human in a sense, if you can look beyond its flaws, its a really nice product..:D

And hey, check this out. For the first time in along time, I'll share something that I've been doing in my work. One of the reasons I'm still doing screenshots when I said I would be disassembling my lowly 8500 is because among some other things I had a brainstorm based on a conversation that I had with tse concerning something that he's doing in his new redesign to a section of their later marquees. He had mentioned a potential weakness in the video chain design that he had addressed with his later redesign. That thought stayed in my mind, and one day after getting my shop 8500 back up and working, I picked up the soldering iron while the thought was still hot, and a few days later I was able to also make a change. At least that's how it appears to me.

So maybe you can follow this as I go. On some of the neck boards on the better CRT projectors they are using two amp sections to drive each tube. One amp section drives the cathode, while the other drives the G1 grid. They are both out of phase with each other. And at the tube, it's called mirrored.

Now, these two signals are equal in gain (amplitude) and for the most part they are equal in resolution, meaning that they both have the exact same frequency capability, as the theory goes, but I've found that to not be true. And I've also found that the more accurate they are to being like each other (though out of phase), the better the image will be that they produce.

So I took a neck board and fired it up on the finished test marquee and got he scope and a few other things fired up as well, and then I ended up with a neck board that not only had a variable cap mounted on it. It also had a variable resistive pot mounted as well. So with the scope and a few other things, I was able to tune each amp section to the tube to be exactly like the other..:D

This is a test set of boards so far, and would need some real testing to prove itself, but man..:eek:

You know what I also thought about after I saw the changes, I thought about the final section of a push-pull amplifier. If either top or bottom signal is weaker or not capable of handling the the perfect signal of its partner, the results would be distortion, or a loss of power. but when both signals are really equal. It's only then that you'll really talking High End..;)

Its like prepaing a race engine. A stock engine runs fine but if you say balance the pistons yada yada the engine will put out more power. It seems like we still havn't figured out how to squeeze all the performance out of the engine yet, there always will be a bit more to squeeze out. It will drive some crazy (Mark Conner) because their machine doesn't have the very very latest even if that is experimental.

Mike Parker wrote:
....I had a brainstorm based on a conversation that I had with tse concerning something that he's doing in his new redesign to a section of their later marquees. He had mentioned a potential weakness in the video chain design that he had addressed with his later redesign. That thought stayed in my mind, and one day after getting my shop 8500 back up and working, I picked up the soldering iron while the thought was still hot, and a few days later I was able to also make a change. At least that's how it appears to me.

So maybe you can follow this as I go. On some of the neck boards on the better CRT projectors they are using two amp sections to drive each tube. One amp section drives the cathode, while the other drives the G1 grid. They are both out of phase with each other. And at the tube, it's called mirrored......

Is this the super secrette VNB that TSE mentioned somewhere else on this forum? Also would any other boards need changing after the added amp section or are you useing a dual amp chip?

Athanasios

Mike Parker wrote:


Is this the super secrette VNB that TSE mentioned somewhere else on this forum? Also would any other boards need changing after the added amp section or are you useing a dual amp chip?

Athanasios

No this is different. Scott (tse) has his own design, which makes an improvement over the shortcoming in previous CRT design low end performance. He has greatly fixed that shorcoming.

What I'm doing here is a redesign that would make for a more precise calibration of certain things with the signal for a more accurate and precision outcome.

This is not something that I'll be offering later with my mods, I'm done with that. it's something I'm only playing around with and may use at my next gathering only. I'm done with the Marquee mods, and I have no intent on offering anything else for them, nor no other versions.

I'll post some HD-DVD images later this week to show what happens when a video chain is precisely aligned to the signal, but for now. Check out the attached image from Kong.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9932/img2561tn9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The detail in the foilage looks great mike,Wow!! too bad you wont offer any more newer advancments of mods for the marquee as i know you are wanting to work on other projectors and projects. Maybe though, one you have this down, you could add it to your marquee maintanace thread? ;) :D


Athanasios

The detail in the foilage looks great mike,Wow!! too bad you wont offer any more newer advancments of mods for the marquee as i know you are wanting to work on other projectors and projects. Maybe though, one you have this down, you could add it to your marquee maintanace thread? ;) :D

Athanasios

I hope to one day try a set of their High Resolution VDC tubes in my 8500, or even the 9" LUGS.

Yeah, I done with the Marquee mods. Not finished but done with trying to squeeze them further. My latest changes would require more tweaking. And i'll need to find a way to work the changes out with the internal patterns, because the the changes I'm working on effects the low end section of that split step pattern. It's a bit more to be done for sure, but I like the changes so far.

I took a few more shots tonight to give a better look at things. The camera may not reveal what I'm seeing in person, but it's all I have to try to show what I'm seeing. And hopefully you'll be able to see some of the same performance changes I'm able to see.

My wife cooked a dinner for her father and had the grand children over. The oldest wanted to watch Kong. He let me pause the image a few times to take some shots, here's a few:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5397/img2570qd1.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9733/img2577lm1.jpg

Simply Amazing! VDC should put you on their payroll in research and development! With TSE and you...man!!!! Oh well we can all dream cant we ?

Athanasios

In some of these images, you'll notice the BLUE being a little dominant. Not really sure why that's happening at this point, or is it because I've not yet did anything with color balance. But I do expect to have a problem with the blue gamma circuit on the VIM with theses changes.

These are still using the Xbox 360 through my Marquee switcher -> 1080P into my lowly 8500.

here's a few more from that same batch:

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7537/img2572lu5.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6537/img2557ll8.jpg

Mike.. So the rumours that you're a genius are true!

:)

Mike, if you're done with Marquee mods, why don't you at least take these developments and make a 'how to" file up and post it for the benefit of those of us who are not afraid
to hack, slice, and dice our way through a circuit, entirely at our own risk, of course?


If you're not going to use them, pass them on to those who will. Please.


CJ

Mike, if you're done with Marquee mods, why don't you at least take these developments and make a 'how to" file up and post it for the benefit of those of us who are not afraid
to hack, slice, and dice our way through a circuit, entirely at our own risk, of course?


If you're not going to use them, pass them on to those who will. Please.


CJ

Wow Chris. That request is akin to asking someone to give up one of their kids I would think. :eek:
I'd personally buy an MPMods kit(s) with all the parts selected for me and perhaps a detailed procedure...or better yet, a step by step video. (Man wouldn't THAT suck to put together but it's better than typing it all!).

I dunno man. Although I couldn't afford MP mods I wouldn't feel right following along with his work the last year or so and then just having them given to me.

Greg

Mike, if you're done with Marquee mods, why don't you at least take these developments and make a 'how to" file up and post it for the benefit of those of us who are not afraid
to hack, slice, and dice our way through a circuit, entirely at our own risk, of course?


If you're not going to use them, pass them on to those who will. Please.


CJ

I'm done with doing anything else to them. However, I'm not finished with the doing Marquee mods..:)

The later change that I'm working with now is my last. I have the 8500 on right now, and It's giving me a perfect Phluge pattern. The first time I've seen that work out as well on these sets. Evn with any of the previous mods I've been doing..:) I'm truly stoked..

Now If I could only get my hands on a set of High Rez tubes... wishful thinking I know, but It's good to dream sometimes.

Anyway, not one person has noticed how well the low end performance has increased in these last four screenshots, over what I've been showing in thr past..:)

Greg, I know we talked some time back, and I know how forgetful I am, but I remember wanting to work with you on something. I'm getting pretty close to clearing my plate, so let's revisit those talks soon.

Guys!

E-Tech is still your retail source for MP Marquee mods in North America. The availability of MP Mods has not ended, just the research for now. Mike may decide differently on research when he has more time to devote to experimenting. If faster amplifier chips come on the market, anything could happen. :-)

Mike, you are aware the G70 uses mismatched Video Output amps? A VP-15 for Cathode and a VPH-06 for G1 (I probably have the exact numbers wrong, but it's a 15 and a 06).

NEC changed to a pair of VP-13s (from single one) in the 2nd/3rd gen XG's, and quite frankly in this implementation I don't see a huge difference in bandwidth. My Xtra was basically as good as my XG-751 (now a hybrid with LC and XG-1101 bits). The potential may be there but it's not exploited.

Mike, you are aware the G70 uses mismatched Video Output amps? A VP-15 for Cathode and a VPH-06 for G1 (I probably have the exact numbers wrong, but it's a 15 and a 06).

NEC changed to a pair of VP-13s (from single one) in the 2nd/3rd gen XG's, and quite frankly in this implementation I don't see a huge difference in bandwidth. My Xtra was basically as good as my XG-751 (now a hybrid with LC and XG-1101 bits). The potential may be there but it's not exploited.

I don't think the different chips would be a problem, unless one cannot match the other at the higher frequencies it'll be used at. The only other issue would be the amplitude being as equal as possible at the the CRT's two elements.

I have an XG that's almost on the table. It's not one of the ones with the dual VP 13 chips, which are the ones I really like. I one I have have the neck boards that looks very similar to what i had in my 6PG Xtra. Either way, I can't wait to get to it... no question, I'm taking it to another level..

I don't think the different chips would be a problem, unless one cannot match the other at the higher frequencies it'll be used at. The only other issue would be the amplitude being as equal as possible at the the CRT's two elements.

I have an XG that's almost on the table. It's not one of the ones with the dual VP 13 chips, which are the ones I really like. I one I have have the neck boards that looks very similar to what i had in my 6PG Xtra. Either way, I can't wait to get to it... no question, I'm taking it to another level..


Well, one is a 150mhz amp, and one is a 60mhz amp....


And you have the WRONG XG!! The later neckboard is completely different - everyone with a LC projector has the later neckaboard. The one you have is very similar to an Xtra.

Well, one is a 150mhz amp, and one is a 60mhz amp....

Whoa.. now that makes no sense at all. maybe tse can explain why they would be doing that.


And you have the WRONG XG!!

Dang. Oh, I do have access to a later one..:)

I think Sony did it to get more output - the 60mhz amp has more output, less bandwidth. Hence the infamous G70 ability to fry tubes at a whim.



All the boards in the earlier XG are very similar to the later one, except for the neckboards, and the different powersupply voltages (and the changes to accomodate the different voltage which propagate through many boards). But the gist of the video path boards right up to the neckboard are the same.

But the gist of the video path boards right up to the neckboard are the same.

Cool, with that info, I can still move forward for now on the rest of the machine. Then I'll worry about the neck boards later sometime.

I've already removed the VIDEO OUT PWB and have been studying it. I Already where to start..:)

Curt In Canada is my man!!

We have P19lug brand new simulation grade in stock.

The picture is VERY sharp.

Greg

Remember, when I came up with the Frankenyoke concept, I had people who were almost ANGRY at the very idea that I might try to make a FEW bucks off of them. So what did I do? I GAVE them to all of you. I gave you detailed instructions and photographs of how to make your own.

I didn't make ONE LOUSY DIME off of them, which Terry has said are the most significant single mod you can do to a Marquee short of Mike Parker's mods.

So don't give me any guff over suggesting that if Mike might be done doing Marquee mods that he might consider releasing the mod data!

BTW, guys, if you're using FrankenYokes, it's because of ME. And ONLY because of ME. I got the ball rolling, I made them work, I pushed a lowly 8000's resolution past the ability of its lenses to resolve, FIRST. If you're using FrankenYokes, consider that it might not do any harm to voluntarily contribute a few dollars to my retirement fund as your way of saying thanks as you enjoy your Marquee throwing a fully resolved 1080P picture.


:)


CJ

So don't give me any guff over suggesting that if Mike might be done doing Marquee mods that he might consider releasing the mod data! CJ

Guys!

Mike is far from done. Even I do not have details as to the devices changed or added to the Marquee boards. He has found the demands on his time to be a bit much, and we are seeking a skilled soldering person in the DC region to assist him as I speak. I have not messed with Frankenyokes as I am not a Sony person; the challenge there is to find Sony yokes it would seem.

Cool, with that info, I can still move forward for now on the rest of the machine. Then I'll worry about the neck boards later sometime.

I've already removed the VIDEO OUT PWB and have been studying it. I Already where to start..:)

I have a full set of second gen XG boards, you are welcome to borrow, if you do end up needing some..but I am on the other side of the planet...:(

I have a full set of second gen XG boards, you are welcome to borrow, if you do end up needing some..but I am on the other side of the planet...:(

You send them to me and I'll put them in the oven, and when their done, I'll pay to send them back to you.

If you are serious Mike, PM me and I'll send them to you.

Mike, I have an XG 1100, so if you ever need to test or borrow anything let me know and we can work out any details. I think you're around 40min from me when I checked once?

And by the way, yes, I noticed the low end detail of your shots :)... especially on the edges of that first Kong shot. Is it just me, or are your colors better now as well (more punchy)? And what's your screen again?

Mike, I have an XG 1100, so if you ever need to test or borrow anything let me know and we can work out any details. I think you're around 40min from me when I checked once?

And by the way, yes, I noticed the low end detail of your shots :)... especially on the edges of that first Kong shot. Is it just me, or are your colors better now as well (more punchy)? And what's your screen again?

XG1100 is what I have also (I think). I'll be playing with boards in it in a little while. If you're into trying them out afterwards, let me know.

Oh yeah, I'm doing something different. It's just that I'm still using the Xbox 360. My screen width is 80"