I'm in the market for a new projector. Because of this, I've been reading a lot here about several brands, but I would like to have some information about the new products from Runco: there is for example the RS-900 with the 2:35 option without the stratospheric prices that this brand used to have. My interest is to know how this new "afortable" line from Runco compares with the JVCs, OPTOMA's, SONY's etc.

Hi, i would be interested to hear anyones thoughts as well. I am just fitting out my home cinema (wife speak - living room) and need to make my mind up on a hd projector and am not really sure what to go for. The guy from my local av shop is raving about the runco. But i am not sure. Is there anything better out there for £9000, which is my max spend.

Runco does a decent job of tweaking the performance of OEM projectors (they don't manufacture their own) and selling them for a slight (sometimes not so slight) premium. Now that they are part of Planar, it would not be suprising to see some less expensive projectors based on Planar-sourced hardware.

So dollar per dollar they do not offer better quality than others like Optomas, JVC, Sony, etc. right?

check out the jvc's and sony's

Take Tryg's advice and start enjoying the movie earlier.:)

So dollar per dollar they do not offer better quality than others like Optomas, JVC, Sony, etc. right?

I know this is gonna get flamed because so many want to make the RS-1 and the new version of the Pearl the endall-beall of projectors. And they're simply not. At their price point, they're fine. But I've seen a Pearl and a Runco RS-1100 in the same location and the Runco blew it away (even with its "lowly" 3100:1 contrast ratio). Runco had more detail, looked more natural, had better ANSI contrast, was brighter, and just simply and clearly WAS better. If you can afford an RS-900 CineWide, DO IT!!!

I know this is gonna get flamed because so many want to make the RS-1 and the new version of the Pearl the endall-beall of projectors. And they're simply not. At their price point, they're fine. But I've seen a Pearl and a Runco RS-1100 in the same location and the Runco blew it away (even with its "lowly" 3100:1 contrast ratio). Runco had more detail, looked more natural, had better ANSI contrast, was brighter, and just simply and clearly WAS better. If you can afford an RS-900 CineWide, DO IT!!!Gee, there's no way somebody was trying to sell the Runco, is there? ;)

Gee, there's no way somebody was trying to sell the Runco, is there? ;)

That's just ignorant. I agree with Scott, pearl's and RS-1's are fine for the price (although I actually prefer D80 at that price point), but they're far from perfect projectors, and there are certainly better offers outthere, including Runco. I'm not an expert on Runco's lineup, but just because they made some OEM's along the way, doesn't mean that any Runco is a rebadged OEM. For instance, until the Sim2 C3X 1080 came along, I believe they actually had the cheapest available 3-chip 1080P projector on the market (correct me if I'm wrong). How did they do that, if they're just selling overpriced, rebadged OEM's?

Runco or not, as I said you WILL be able to find much better PJ's than Pearl and RS-1, if you step up the price. It's not just a matter of stores deliberately making them look bad.

I'm in the market for a new projector. Because of this, I've been reading a lot here about several brands, but I would like to have some information about the new products from Runco: there is for example the RS-900 with the 2:35 option without the stratospheric prices that this brand used to have. My interest is to know how this new "afortable" line from Runco compares with the JVCs, OPTOMA's, SONY's etc.

Runco are the best you can get.You won't find much talked here about them,Because most here can't afford them.If cash is no problem then Runco would be my first choice.They offer the best support their is.But all that said.Their are cheaper fp's that will give you a outstanding pic.Also Runco is sold though custom installer's.Most here like to install their own and tweak.With Runco you get custom installation and tweaked to your liking.:)

That's just ignorant. I agree with Scott, pearl's and RS-1's are fine for the price (although I actually prefer D80 at that price point), but they're far from perfect projectors, and there are certainly better offers outthere, including Runco. I'm not an expert on Runco's lineup, but just because they made some OEM's along the way, doesn't mean that any Runco is a rebadged OEM. For instance, until the Sim2 C3X 1080 came along, I believe they actually had the cheapest available 3-chip 1080P projector on the market (correct me if I'm wrong). How did they do that, if they're just selling overpriced, rebadged OEM's?

Runco or not, as I said you WILL be able to find much better PJ's than Pearl and RS-1, if you step up the price. It's not just a matter of stores deliberately making them look bad.

Thanks Otto. And Noah, I've never hid the fact that I work for a dealer and am....insert shudder....a salesperson. I also happen to sell both the Runco & the Sony and I can sell JVC as a special order. I BOUGHT the Runco even though it was much more expensive than either of the others. Because I LOOKED at them all and liked the Runco the best, particularly with their turnkey 2:35 option, which I have and love.

Again, I'm not disparaging the others, just saying that like anything else in life, you get what you pay for. In our store, with both the Sony & Runco displayed, it was not even a contest and the Runco was even at a slight disadvantage as it was on a bigger screen.

And Otto is right about the whole OEM thing. Buying someone else's platform and then hot-rodding it is a perfectly legitimate way to get a better product. Would you argue that an AMG-modified Mercedes isn't as good as a stock Mercedes? Of course not. Not a perfect analogy because of the relationship between AMG and Mercedes, but you get the idea.

... just saying that like anything else in life, you get what you pay for...

*ahem...>cough<...>BOSE<....>cough<.......*

;)

Runco are the best you can get.You won't find much talked here about them,Because most here can't afford them.If cash is no problem then Runco would be my first choice.They offer the best support their is.But all that said.Their are cheaper fp's that will give you a outstanding pic.Also Runco is sold though custom installer's.Most here like to install their own and tweak.With Runco you get custom installation and tweaked to your liking.:)

Actually the vast majority of people in this forum CAN afford them.

Runco makes excellent units...some of the best. It is true you pay more for them, like with anything high end. I would agree completely with Scott on the point that a good Runco will outperform the RS1/Black Pearl for many people (not everyone...they each have a different look). BUT, I also wouldn't compare those. The Runco is a DLP, the Sony and JVC are not, so again, they produce a very different image. You are better comparing the Runco to the Marantz, Sim2, Sharp, etc... Then you are more of an apples to apples comparison.

Overall it's best to audition them for yourself (if possible).

Runco are the best you can get.You won't find much talked here about them,Because most here can't afford them.

Quite possibly the 2 most wrong and ill informed statements it has been my misfortune to read on AVS.

Jason, you said "a good runco", and there is my point, Im not talking about " a good = much higher price" RUNCO, but the new models that they have below 10K (with the 2:35 option) even when one of them is 720p. Talking about those especific models, how can they compare with the same "apples" : Marantz, Sim2, Sharp, etc.?

Well ALL Runco's are good...they don't really make crappy projectors. What I meant to say is that keeping price consistent, you would want to still compare with closesr relatives (such as the Sim2, Marantz, etc...).

Quite possibly the 2 most wrong and ill informed statements it has been my misfortune to read on AVS.


If I could try and put this back on the road to civility.....If I am interpreting that statement correctly, I think he's referring to the fact that it is pretty obvious that on the forums, there is a serious bias towards overperforming "cheap" projectors than those that are priced into the 5 figures and even above. So there is not much mention of the big 3-chip Runcos or for that matter their higher priced single chip models. But try reading a projector forum without hearing about the RS-1 and the Pearl. Virtually impossible. And there is also an undeniable attempt by owners of those models to try and make those projectors seem "fairly" priced while others at higher price points are somehow taking advantage of people who don't know any better. To that, I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen. Everyone knows that improvements in performance come at a high cost. So trying to play the "value" game and justifying a high-end projector is an exercise in futility. If one can afford it, spending more than $7,000 will get you a much better projector. And if that improvement is worth it, then the projector is worth it! Keep in mind that there is a whole segment of society content with their 26" TV who think that spending $7,000 on a projector is crazy. It's all about one's perspective.

If I could try and put this back on the road to civility.....If I am interpreting that statement correctly, I think he's referring to the fact that it is pretty obvious that on the forums, there is a serious bias towards overperforming "cheap" projectors than those that are priced into the 5 figures and even above. So there is not much mention of the big 3-chip Runcos or for that matter their higher priced single chip models. But try reading a projector forum without hearing about the RS-1 and the Pearl. Virtually impossible. And there is also an undeniable attempt by owners of those models to try and make those projectors seem "fairly" priced while others at higher price points are somehow taking advantage of people who don't know any better. To that, I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen. Everyone knows that improvements in performance come at a high cost. So trying to play the "value" game and justifying a high-end projector is an exercise in futility. If one can afford it, spending more than $7,000 will get you a much better projector. And if that improvement is worth it, then the projector is worth it! Keep in mind that there is a whole segment of society content with their 26" TV who think that spending $7,000 on a projector is crazy. It's all about one's perspective.

That in no way addresses my points.

1. Runco are NOT the de facto best you can get

2. There are plenty forum members who can afford to buy them.

To that, I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen.

Different tools for different applications. That's all.

Put them both on a smaller screen and equalize brightness, well that's a different story.

To that, I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen.

Would it not be more fair to compare the Runco VX22 to the Sim2CX31080?

If I could try and put this back on the road to civility.....If I am interpreting that statement correctly, I think he's referring to the fact that it is pretty obvious that on the forums, there is a serious bias towards overperforming "cheap" projectors than those that are priced into the 5 figures and even above. So there is not much mention of the big 3-chip Runcos or for that matter their higher priced single chip models. But try reading a projector forum without hearing about the RS-1 and the Pearl. Virtually impossible. And there is also an undeniable attempt by owners of those models to try and make those projectors seem "fairly" priced while others at higher price points are somehow taking advantage of people who don't know any better. To that, I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen. Everyone knows that improvements in performance come at a high cost. So trying to play the "value" game and justifying a high-end projector is an exercise in futility. If one can afford it, spending more than $7,000 will get you a much better projector. And if that improvement is worth it, then the projector is worth it! Keep in mind that there is a whole segment of society content with their 26" TV who think that spending $7,000 on a projector is crazy. It's all about one's perspective.

You can't compare Runcos to Pearls and RS1s and draw conclusions as to Runco quality, different class altogether. They're consumer products.

Compare with their direct competitors, and its a different story. Im talking as an ex Runco owner. Take a wander over to the big boys forum and you'll get some well informed information.

As for the VX-22, actually not that impressive. I had one on approval for a week and found it to be an under performer. Back to back with the HT5000 it just looked lame.

That in no way addresses my points.

1. Runco are NOT the de facto best you can get

2. There are plenty forum members who can afford to buy them.

I think scott got my point.You did not'I should have used the word' one of the best FP you can buy.And they are,Their at the top of the chain.Of course their are a very few brands who can compete.
And I know their are some here who can afford a Runco.
But most here on the main forums do not buy Runco,Do a serach,Their is allmost no post about new Runco's like their is for sony jvc panny ect.

...I would say, go see a Runco VX-22D on a 10 foot wide screen and then try getting a Pearl to light up that screen...


I light up a 12 foot screen with an RS1 :D:eek:

Sure they are a good company and their projectors are very nice, but is their technology up to speed? What kind of video processing do their machines have? What kind of contrast ratio?

I looked at them with the Home Theater Store, along with the Sharp 20k, when I bought my HD1 and I just felt I was so much better off with an HD1 and an AVM50, which combined were about as much, or more or less, .. cant remember anymore, as the RS1100, I believe that was the model I was looking at.

Sure they are a good company and their projectors are very nice, but is their technology up to speed? What kind of video processing do their machines have? What kind of contrast ratio?

I looked at them with the Home Theater Store, along with the Sharp 20k, when I bought my HD1 and I just felt I was so much better off with an HD1 and an AVM50, which combined were about as much, or more or less, .. cant remember anymore, as the RS1100, I believe that was the model I was looking at.

I am pretty sure that they keep up with technology, usually, they are there first with the tech.

Unfortunately, you generally can't just walk into a home theater store and expect all the projectors to be calibrated. I generally ask, I am told that they are, but I know better. Many places don't bother calibrating beyond simple adjustments of the black level and sharpness:eek:

As for the VX-22, actually not that impressive. I had one on approval for a week and found it to be an under performer. Back to back with the HT5000 it just looked lame.

I saw a VX22 that had just been calibrated by Runco's top adjuster. It was a 10' 2.35:1 screen. Saw about 20 clips in both standard DVD and BD.
I had the same conclusion, pretty lame. My wife had trouble seeing much difference between our G70 and the Runco. Yes, there was a difference, sharper and brighter but not that far apart. A disappointment to say the least.

Now I just have to decide between the Sim2 HT5000 and the CX31080.

Now I just have to decide between the Sim2 HT5000 and the CX31080.

I have both. If you need help choosing, give me a shout.

I am pretty sure that they keep up with technology, usually, they are there first with the tech.



Assumptions are ok, but do you know what kind of video processing it comes with? I know the CR and black levels didnt seem to be acceptable to me at the time, and if I remember correctly the video processing was a question mark for even the dealer at the time.

He gave me a very good price on the runco PJ but he couldnt substantiate it (the video processing) for me, either.

I know the CR and black levels didnt seem to be acceptable to me at the time, and if I remember correctly the video processing was a question mark for even the dealer at the time.

That's because the whole philosophy behind Runco products is to evaluate performance by watching the picture, not by judging the cost of what's inside the box. They simply won't tell you what's inside, if it matters what's in the box, you should see it up on the screen.

I'm not saying this is the only approach that works, but this is how Runco sees it. Also, trying to justify the cost of a Runco is rather missing the point. I don't think Runco will ever tell you that they deliver the best performance per dollar. They will, however, tell you that they deliver very high performance with very high level of support. That comes at a price. If they are right in their claims is up to each individual to judge, but you can only be convinced if it's true or not by visiting a dealer and see it for yourself. This is why you don't see Runco getting discussed that often in forums, the business approach simply don't fare well with the kind of people who likes to discuss each and every detail of a projector before buying it. They apply to people who walk into a store, see a good picture, and tell the dealer to install it at home. People who watch movies, and don't care about the technology. These customers don't care which processing they use, or if the chip inside is DC2, 3, 4 or 678. That's why they won't tell you, it confuses their target customers. If you want to know, you're not in the target group. I know 98% of forum users will not agree to this approach, but that's the way Runco is going. There ARE a lot of people outthere who will pay a lot of money to get their movies presented as good as they can, but don't even WANT to know how the technology works. This is Runco's target group, not videophiles per se (as I see it, at least)

That's because the whole philosophy behind Runco products is to evaluate performance by watching the picture, not by judging the cost of what's inside the box. They simply won't tell you what's inside, if it matters what's in the box, you should see it up on the screen.

I'm not saying this is the only approach that works, but this is how Runco sees it. Also, trying to justify the cost of a Runco is rather missing the point. I don't think Runco will ever tell you that they deliver the best performance per dollar. They will, however, tell you that they deliver very high performance with very high level of support. That comes at a price. If they are right in their claims is up to each individual to judge, but you can only be convinced if it's true or not by visiting a dealer and see it for yourself. This is why you don't see Runco getting discussed that often in forums, the business approach simply don't fare well with the kind of people who likes to discuss each and every detail of a projector before buying it. They apply to people who walk into a store, see a good picture, and tell the dealer to install it at home. People who watch movies, and don't care about the technology. These customers don't care which processing they use, or if the chip inside is DC2, 3, 4 or 678. That's why they won't tell you, it confuses their target customers. If you want to know, you're not in the target group. I know 98% of forum users will not agree to this approach, but that's the way Runco is going. There ARE a lot of people outthere who will pay a lot of money to get their movies presented as good as they can, but don't even WANT to know how the technology works. This is Runco's target group, not videophiles per se (as I see it, at least)


Sounds very much like a shell game to me. From what you describe, it sounds like their target market is still custom installers who can rip the living crap off of people who would otherwise not know better.

This is why you don't see Runco getting discussed that often in forums, the business approach simply don't fare well with the kind of people who likes to discuss each and every detail of a projector before buying it. They apply to people who walk into a store, see a good picture, and tell the dealer to install it at home. People who watch movies, and don't care about the technology. These customers don't care which processing they use, or if the chip inside is DC2, 3, 4 or 678. That's why they won't tell you, it confuses their target customers.

Confuses their customers. Thats funny. 8)

These arent mutually exclusive things. You can target that "supposed" group of people and still provide substance to your product for those who are curious, or might otherwise be interested. According to the sales guy on this thread, there are now Runco projectors that are geared/priced for more mainstream, than the target market that you refer to, buyers. Are you saying that those buyers would not want to know either?

This guy:

Jason, you said "a good runco", and there is my point, Im not talking about " a good = much higher price" RUNCO, but the new models that they have below 10K (with the 2:35 option) even when one of them is 720p. Talking about those especific models, how can they compare with the same "apples" : Marantz, Sim2, Sharp, etc.?

Sounds very much like a shell game to me. From what you describe, it sounds like their target market is still custom installers who can rip the living crap off of people who would otherwise not know better.

I disagree strongly with your take on custom installers. Their customers are not ripped off. _Because_, as you say, they don't know better, without someone to take them by the hand and carry out a complete installation where all they need to do is press a button when it's finished, they would never even GET this level of performance. Give them a bunch of boxes at 2/3 the price, and they will probably never get it installed. There are a lot of people, including the customers themselves, who simply don't understand how much more expensive it is for a dealer to carry out this level of service, compared to delivering a box via UPS, so they (you!) simply don't have an understanding of the _nescessity_ of a higher margin of the products installed. Noone gets ripped off, the people who go to these installers usually get a _much_ better system than they would otherwise be able to get. Also, the higher margin may, for SOME people, be very well paid to make sure you get a properly functioning system. As a calibrator, I quite often see "joe public" having fairly good products set up horribly wrong, as in listening to pro logic surround from DVD's, without knowing it. If noone is there to tell them how to use their products, or set it up for them, they won't get the full performance. Who cares if you can save 30% on the price, if you only get 40% of the performance you should? I'm aware that _some_ customers can do all this by themselves, including most (but certainly not all) forum users, and these customers tend to have no clue as to how difficult it is for the normal user, and how little performance it is possible to get if you set up the products poorly.

It reminds me of one customer I talked to a while ago, about a quite advanced HDD-recorder sold in Europe, which had a lot of bugs. He got quite aggressive when I said that this product was useless to the average consumers. His argument was: "It's not advanced at all, it's very easy to work around these bugs, all you need is a bit of basic knowledge about how a Linux based system works!" Well, that WOULD make it a bit advanced, wouldn't it...

The short story is: I think it's great that there is a company who tries to stop talking technical gibberish to the customers, and simply try to talk pictures. If that doesn't impress you, fine, but that doesn't mean that they are ripping their customers off, just that different customers have different needs. Who cares if projector X would be better for a specific customer, if noone is there to tell it to him?




These arent mutually exclusive things. You can target that "supposed" group of people and still provide substance to your product for those who are curious, or might otherwise be interested.


I know this isn't an obvious point, but the more you tell the customer, the more the customer wants to debate it, even if he doesn't have a clue what it means. By not telling the customer these things, you force him to look at the picture and judge if that's what he wants. Isn't that what it's all about in the first place?

According to the sales guy on this thread, there are now Runco projectors that are geared/priced for more mainstream, than the target market that you refer to, buyers. Are you saying that those buyers would not want to know either?




You're saying that the less people pay for their system, the more likely they are to want to know about the tech behind it? Cheaper Runco's don't, as I see it, mean that they target the tech-nerds. It means they realized that there are people outthere who need good pictures, but don't want to pay 40.000$ for their system. That doesn't mean they want to know the specifications.

You're saying that the less people pay for their system, the more likely they are to want to know about the tech behind it? Cheaper Runco's don't, as I see it, mean that they target the tech-nerds. It means they realized that there are people outthere who need good pictures, but don't want to pay 40.000$ for their system. That doesn't mean they want to know the specifications.


No, thats not what I am saying. YOU guys are trying to imply the opposite. I wasnt agreeing with any of your points , I was just supposing.

"These arent mutually exclusive things. You can target that "supposed" group of people and still provide substance to your product for those who are curious, or might otherwise be interested. According to the sales guy on this thread, there are now Runco projectors that are geared/priced for more mainstream, than the target market that you refer to, buyers. Are you saying that those buyers would not want to know either?"

I disagree strongly with your take on custom installers. Their customers are not ripped off.

I am not lumping all custom installers in that category. I am referring to the custom installers who, in my opinion, will rip their customers off, and you know who you are. I guess its debatable that someone is getting ripped off if they dont know any better that they are paying $20,000 out of the $40,000 "cost" of the product for the service you describe.

Sure its a good image, but a good image, hell a better image, could probably also be had for much much less than that $40,000 (arbitrary number you used which I am also using- not really a price point I am debating here), which apparently includes a markup or (close to) full priced charging to cover the handholding and the services of making all the decisions for the client.

Sure there are some people who will pay whatever for any product. In the case of Runco projectors, just because they do certainly doesnt make those projectors any better than cheaper ones that are actually better.

I know this isn't an obvious point, but the more you tell the customer, the more the customer wants to debate it, even if he doesn't have a clue what it means. By not telling the customer these things, you force him to look at the picture and judge if that's what he wants.


Probably one of the the more mind numbingly saddening things i have read on this forum. I weep for the victims of this attitude.

Probably one of the the more mind numbingly saddening things i have read on this forum. I weep for the victims of this attitude.

He sounds like a Democrat :eek: Let them eat cake.


I'm working on how to win friends ;)

I think scott got my point.You did not'I should have used the word' one of the best FP you can buy.And they are,Their at the top of the chain.Of course their are a very few brands who can compete.
And I know their are some here who can afford a Runco.
But most here on the main forums do not buy Runco,Do a serach,Their is allmost no post about new Runco's like their is for sony jvc panny ect.

True...most people don't have Runco on this forum. But I was merely pointing out it was NOT because they couldn't afford it. Each person has their own preferences, needs, etc... It's the same thing why some people buy a Sony VPL-VW60 instead of an RS1, while others get the RS1 instead. To each his own.

I light up a 12 foot screen with an RS1 :D:eek:

You can't be getting more than 5 footlamberts.....unless you're running about 12,000 Kelvin and pushing the heck out of contrast. There's no substitute for a big light engine. ut if you enjoy it, that's great. In no post did I say that your projector wasn't fine projector. But 12'???

No, thats not what I am saying. YOU guys are trying to imply the opposite. I wasnt agreeing with any of your points , I was just supposing.

"These arent mutually exclusive things. You can target that "supposed" group of people and still provide substance to your product for those who are curious, or might otherwise be interested. According to the sales guy on this thread, there are now Runco projectors that are geared/priced for more mainstream, than the target market that you refer to, buyers. Are you saying that those buyers would not want to know either?"



I am not lumping all custom installers in that category. I am referring to the custom installers who, in my opinion, will rip their customers off, and you know who you are. I guess its debatable that someone is getting ripped off if they dont know any better that they are paying $20,000 out of the $40,000 "cost" of the product for the service you describe.

Sure its a good image, but a good image, hell a better image, could probably also be had for much much less than that $40,000 (arbitrary number you used which I am also using- not really a price point I am debating here), which apparently includes a markup or (close to) full priced charging to cover the handholding and the services of making all the decisions for the client.

Sure there are some people who will pay whatever for any product. In the case of Runco projectors, just because they do certainly doesnt make those projectors any better than cheaper ones that are actually better.

I have a feeling I might as well be spitting in the wind here, but you just don't know of what you speak. In the custom world, the relationship with the vendor and the support you get means a lot. In the case of Runco, their commitment to dealer support is legendary. When you're working with customers who are paying for an integrator to make their systems work, knowing that you have a resource to help solve problems outweighs going with the projector company darling of the month. There is a reason Runco has such a loyal dealer base, and it's a combination of quality products, products that work in a variety of environments, and very quick response to issues when they arise. Do you think that Sony or JVC or any HUGE company doing billions of dollars of business truly sweat the problems with someone's $5,000 projector? Well, Runco does and they prove it. If you personally do not need a custom installer to manage your installation, then that's fine. But please consider that there are people who are busy and who focus on other things, and understand that there is value in working with a reputable dealer/installer. And some of those people also see it as a good American value to work with a local dealer that employs local people to do good work rather than anonymously buy from someone on the internet who can sell at a reduced cost because they don't have to offer an ounce of service after they've made their sale, to say nothing of the value of employing good people to offer services needed.

I do have to agree on the service issue. Runco are outstanding. I avoid hi-fi/CE companies like the plague.

Ridiculous. As if I dont use custom installers to do my setups or have any experience with them.

The guys I use most are THE largest custom installers in Austin, Mesa Home Systems. I bought my Marantz 15S1, my latest PJ, from them. My Sharp 10k, Sharp 12k, Sony Ruby, and JVC HD1 were all bought from local home theater dealers and all of them except for my Marantz 15S1 were installed by Mesa Home Systems, even though I bought it from them, and ONLY because I could not wait 3 weeks to get that one installed did my nephew and I do the install ourselves (and surprisingly we did pretty good.)

A likely reason that dealers are loyal to RUNCO is margin. Lets not kid ourselves. I am in sales myself. I have negotiated several large deals and purchases and I know how easy it can be for someone not principled to make, or even convince themselves that it isnt, much more than their fair share of the pie.

Ive had several people come in and quote me product and services for home theater equipment and I even started a HT retail business myself just because I am so into the hobby and I can buy and sell gear easier/cheaper considering that I am constantly looking at the next new piece of electronics.

What do you think is a fair fee/margin for an install setup for a $100,000 MSRP home theater with materials costs to the dealer of $30,000? Obviously the market value would be whatever someone would be willing to pay for it? Is that the fair value to you?

Dont you agree that someone who hasnt really any clue what the values are might be more apt to pay more for something that MSRPs $100k? Is that probably the market that RUNCO and their custom installers target?

Well, if that is the case that probably answers the question of why you dont see RUNCO on these boards. Most people are actually here to find out about the home theater purchases they are about to make and why on earth would they pay $100,000 for something installed that they can get equal or better product for for $20,000.

If any of those guys would have told me I was better off not knowing, or not asking, or talked to me the way that Otto and some others feel that its ok for any manufacturer or installer to even just think like that I would have fired them on the spot.

Whether you like it, or not, Scott, to me custom installers are very much like used car salesmen and mechanics. You might have some good ones, but you certainly also have some bad ones. If you get a bad one and he gets you on a RUNCO, good luck. Talk about margins and nickle and dimed to death.

Scott, I dont know you at all. I have no idea what type of service you provide or how much you charge your customers. NONE, whatsoever.

Its very possible you are a very principled custom installer who charges a fair price for his services but unfortunately you are in an industry where shell games, misinformation, and ridiculous markups and margins on not really necessary items is standard operating procedure for many.

I am not lumping all custom installers in that category. I am referring to the custom installers who, in my opinion, will rip their customers off, and you know who you are. I guess its debatable that someone is getting ripped off if they dont know any better that they are paying $20,000 out of the $40,000 "cost" of the product for the service you describe.

I do have to agree on the service issue. Runco are outstanding. I avoid hi-fi/CE companies like the plague.

It better be, for what you pay for it. Specially since they apparently wont tell you what is inside.

You can't be getting more than 5 footlamberts.....unless you're running about 12,000 Kelvin and pushing the heck out of contrast. There's no substitute for a big light engine. ut if you enjoy it, that's great. In no post did I say that your projector wasn't fine projector. But 12'???

I can watch it in the afternoon without any shades on the 4 windows of the room. Does that mean I have more than 5ftL or just incredible eyes? :confused:

Dont you agree that someone who hasnt really any clue what the values are might be more apt to pay more for something that MSRPs $100k? Is that probably the market that RUNCO and their custom installers target?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. By the way, I don't speak on the behalf of Runco, I may be wrong in my interpretation of Runco's business model. It's also not the specific route I personally prefer (if it was, I wouldn't be writing this in the first place), I'm only trying to give another perspective on different business models, and telling you that it's not nescessarily about ripping people off.

Well, if that is the case that probably answers the question of why you dont see RUNCO on these boards. Most people are actually here to find out about the home theater purchases they are about to make and why on earth would they pay $100,000 for something installed that they can get equal or better product for for $20,000.

What I'm saying is: There are actually people who are willing to pay quite a lot of money _not_ to spend time on forums like this, to find out which products is the better value. Some people are simply able to make more money in the time it takes them to find out, than they actually save on buying the cheaper product. Some people just don't CARE about performance per dollar. They are paying for someone else to figure out what to install, do the install, and not least be able to resolve any problems quickly. If an installer is going to be able to solve problems quickly, he needs proper backup from the manufacturer. Not caring about performance per dollar, or about the technical aspects of the install, doesn't mean that the customer isn't demanding! Usually they're a whole lot more demanding than customers who know about the technologies, because knowledgeable customers will understand that there are drawbacks to choosing a specific technology. Ignorant customers may be less demanding in terms of peak performance, but they're not as forgiving in terms of drawbacks to certain technologies either.


Whether you like it, or not, Scott, to me custom installers are very much like used car salesmen and mechanics. You might have some good ones, but you certainly also have some bad ones. If you get a bad one and he gets you on a RUNCO, good luck. Talk about margins and nickle and dimed to death.

Well, of course there are good and bad dealers in custom install, just like there are good and bad dealers in internet sales. But you were implying that Runco's complete business model is built around no-good dealers who only wants to rip you off because you don't know better. That's what I don't agree with.

I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong in your approach to buying home theater gear. I'm saying that your approach, or my approach, is not the one that's best for everyone. If you're going to evaluate the overall value of a Runco product, you need to do it from the perspective of the target consumer, not your own. If you do it from your own perspective, you find out if Runco is right for you, but not if the product has value in general.

Ridiculous. As if I dont use custom installers to do my setups or have any experience with them.

The guys I use most are THE largest custom installers in Austin, Mesa Home Systems. I bought my Marantz 15S1, my latest PJ, from them. My Sharp 10k, Sharp 12k, Sony Ruby, and JVC HD1 were all bought from local home theater dealers and all of them except for my Marantz 15S1 were installed by Mesa Home Systems, even though I bought it from them, and ONLY because I could not wait 3 weeks to get that one installed did my nephew and I do the install ourselves (and surprisingly we did pretty good.)

A likely reason that dealers are loyal to RUNCO is margin. Lets not kid ourselves. I am in sales myself. I have negotiated several large deals and purchases and I know how easy it can be for someone not principled to make, or even convince themselves that it isnt, much more than their fair share of the pie.

Ive had several people come in and quote me product and services for home theater equipment and I even started a HT retail business myself just because I am so into the hobby and I can buy and sell gear easier/cheaper considering that I am constantly looking at the next new piece of electronics.

What do you think is a fair fee/margin for an install setup for a $100,000 MSRP home theater with materials costs to the dealer of $30,000? Obviously the market value would be whatever someone would be willing to pay for it? Is that the fair value to you?

Dont you agree that someone who hasnt really any clue what the values are might be more apt to pay more for something that MSRPs $100k? Is that probably the market that RUNCO and their custom installers target?

Well, if that is the case that probably answers the question of why you dont see RUNCO on these boards. Most people are actually here to find out about the home theater purchases they are about to make and why on earth would they pay $100,000 for something installed that they can get equal or better product for for $20,000.

If any of those guys would have told me I was better off not knowing, or not asking, or talked to me the way that Otto and some others feel that its ok for any manufacturer or installer to even just think like that I would have fired them on the spot.

Whether you like it, or not, Scott, to me custom installers are very much like used car salesmen and mechanics. You might have some good ones, but you certainly also have some bad ones. If you get a bad one and he gets you on a RUNCO, good luck. Talk about margins and nickle and dimed to death.

Scott, I dont know you at all. I have no idea what type of service you provide or how much you charge your customers. NONE, whatsoever.

Its very possible you are a very principled custom installer who charges a fair price for his services but unfortunately you are in an industry where shell games, misinformation, and ridiculous markups and margins on not really necessary items is standard operating procedure for many.

Well, as expected, the wind is strong and the spit just hit me in the face. I believe you would be well served in delineating from what we call the "trunk slammers" of the custom installation world (ie-they don't have a showroom or office and prowl developments handing out their card and touting their low prices relative to established business with a long history in the market) from the reputable dealers of the world, of which there are many. Trunk slammers are here today gone tomorrow and the low margin they sell their goods for does not to a bit of good to the customer needing service and follow-up when they are gone from the market and out of business and the homeowner is left with a system that a reputable installer won't touch because frankly you inherit and become responsible for the shoddy work of the pariahs of this industry. It's very unfortunate.

As for margin, you know no salesperson discusses the particulars of margin, but let's just say that the margin of any video product is just ok, particularly for a "brick and mortar" business responsible for employing a sizable workforce and offering them competitive pay and health benefits. Doing business with such businesses is part of living in a healthy society, but of course I don't mean to imply someone should pay unfairly for good service. But a REAL store/dealer cannot compete with internet pricing or an individual "trunk slammer" because 'crazy eddie' and his local counterpart the 'trunk slammer' are just out for themselves and don't give a rip about service. So no one is getting rich selling video these days. So as much as it would be nice to live in a world where there was this dreamy margin you speak of, it's a myth.

And bragging about riding the hot product of the month is nothing to brag about in my opinion. It is always prudent to look at the market and make sure what you are offering is competitive, but to ride the ebb and flow of the latest good review will not win you friends from your vendors and will have you trying to offer service to innumerable products that you can't possibly keep up with from a service standpoint. This is another reason why good dealers carefully pick their vendors, provide them feedback about where they'd like to see the products go, and use them consistently. You've got to be able to service these things after all. I can only imagine 5 years from now when you find yourself fielding calls about service for an RS-1, Pearl, the latest Sim2, an Epson here and there, maybe a Mitsubishi, etc. Good luck with that.

I appreciate that you allow for the possibility that I am not a scumbag as I am fortunate to work for a very reputable dealer with an outstanding reputation and decades of history of good service.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. By the way, I don't speak on the behalf of Runco, I may be wrong in my interpretation of Runco's business model. It's also not the specific route I personally prefer (if it was, I wouldn't be writing this in the first place), I'm only trying to give another perspective on different business models, and telling you that it's not nescessarily about ripping people off.



What I'm saying is: There are actually people who are willing to pay quite a lot of money _not_ to spend time on forums like this, to find out which products is the better value. Some people are simply able to make more money in the time it takes them to find out, than they actually save on buying the cheaper product. Some people just don't CARE about performance per dollar. They are paying for someone else to figure out what to install, do the install, and not least be able to resolve any problems quickly. If an installer is going to be able to solve problems quickly, he needs proper backup from the manufacturer. Not caring about performance per dollar, or about the technical aspects of the install, doesn't mean that the customer isn't demanding! Usually they're a whole lot more demanding than customers who know about the technologies, because knowledgeable customers will understand that there are drawbacks to choosing a specific technology. Ignorant customers may be less demanding in terms of peak performance, but they're not as forgiving in terms of drawbacks to certain technologies either.



Well, of course there are good and bad dealers in custom install, just like there are good and bad dealers in internet sales. But you were implying that Runco's complete business model is built around no-good dealers who only wants to rip you off because you don't know better. That's what I don't agree with.

I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong in your approach to buying home theater gear. I'm saying that your approach, or my approach, is not the one that's best for everyone. If you're going to evaluate the overall value of a Runco product, you need to do it from the perspective of the target consumer, not your own. If you do it from your own perspective, you find out if Runco is right for you, but not if the product has value in general.

Well Said Otto!!!

It better be, for what you pay for it. Specially since they apparently wont tell you what is inside.

Im with you all the way. I just had to concede the service issue. Nothing else

Im with you all the way. I just had to concede the service issue. Nothing else


Buy one, use one and then you should post your opinions.

I bought one (VX1000Ci), installed it myself. The cost was comparable to the Sharp 12K at the time. The grey scale and colorimetry calibrates almost perfectly to D6500, with 17ft lamberts on screen. I have Ken Whitcomb to thank for that.

I must of gotten ripped off huh?:cool:

Buy one, use one and then you should post your opinions.

I bought one (VX1000Ci), installed it myself. The cost was comparable to the Sharp 12K at the time. The grey scale and colorimetry calibrates almost perfectly to D6500, with 17ft lamberts on screen. I have Ken Whitcomb to thank for that.

I must of gotten ripped off huh?:cool:

Ive use them many times and had them on extended approvals. I had the VX-22d for over a week. Similar with the VX-44d.

I also owned a Runco yeas back. I never once said anyone was ripped off. I addressed 2 specific points, no more than that.

^^Obviously, I should have included Mr. Catdaddy too....

^^Obviously, I should have included Mr. Catdaddy too....

Not sure what you mean by that, but I cant see where your previous post applies to me at all.

Let me see, you think I should buy one EVEN if I prefer another projector? I looked into them. One of my local HT dealers deals in RUNCOs.

I could have had the RUNCO RS1100, I think it was at the time .. cant be sure anymore, for similar to what I paid for my HD1 and AVM50. Obviously, I liked the HD1 and AVM50 better/more.

I certainly didnt say that everyone who buys a RUNCO gets ripped off. Obviously that would depend on the "custom installer" you end up with. You can get ripped off buying a SONY or a JVC for that matter, depending on who you buy it from. Im sure Ken is a solid guy otherwise he wouldnt have the following that he has.

I dont really think you have read my posts, or at least not well.

You have people on this thread that have made disparaging comments about RUNCO and those arent CM and I. We have called the practices that they suggest that RUNCO and some custom installers have as highly questionable.

Not sure what you mean by that, but I cant see where your previous post applies to me at all.

I dont think he read the posts. 8)


Its pretty obvious why there arent any RUNCO threads .. probably because there arent many RUNCO owners. Dont you think?

I wonder why that is?



A couple of final thoughts I want to leave this thread with (I think youll agree with me on these two points CM):

One thing definitely worse than spitting against the wind is pissing against it.

Beware the wolf in sheep's, or grandma's, clothing.

Its pretty obvious why there arent any RUNCO threads .. probably because there arent many RUNCO owners. Dont you think?

I wonder why that is?


The company were taken over this year. The cost...$36M.

That is serioulsy chump change. Sales are miniscule

Sales are miniscule

...which allows them to perform a higher level of support for each customer, compared to a company that makes the same total profit from 10x the number of sold PJ's. I don't think Runco ever meant to compete with the likes of Sim2 when it comes to the number of PJ's sold. As long as they can build high-quality products, deliver a high level of support and keep their customers happy, while making enough profit to be able to not only stay in business (which, like Scott says, is quite an important part of delivering support, obviously), but to actually be able to sponsor certain events. As I see it, Runco does quite a bit of work "spreading the word" (sorry, not sure if I can find the right English expression of what I mean to say here...) about quality video. They do quite a bit of sponsoring of events like Cedia shows, Home Theater Cruise etc., and they did work together with THX on the home theater video specs. Some of this work _should_ be done by the big companies. If Runco makes enough money to be able to support not only the dealer base, but the entire videophile community, all the more praise from me.

If just a few of the bigger companies had the same commitment to not only create quality products, but actually tell the customers WHY they should buy quality products and buy them from reputable dealers who knows how to install them, I (naively, perhaps?) believe the general public would be more aware of how good pictures they should expect from their money. And maybe as a side effect of that, you wouldn't get stuff like "HD Lite", from which we in Europe luckily so far have been spared.

If this business approach will continue after the takeover from Planar, that's a completely different story... Time will tell.

The business approach to which you refer was an abject failure. They were sold for pennies

...which allows them to perform a higher level of support for each customer, compared to a company that makes the same total profit from 10x the number of sold PJ's. I don't think Runco ever meant to compete with the likes of Sim2 when it comes to the number of PJ's sold. As long as they can build high-quality products, deliver a high level of support and keep their customers happy, while making enough profit to be able to not only stay in business (which, like Scott says, is quite an important part of delivering support, obviously), but to actually be able to sponsor certain events. As I see it, Runco does quite a bit of work "spreading the word" (sorry, not sure if I can find the right English expression of what I mean to say here...) about quality video. They do quite a bit of sponsoring of events like Cedia shows, Home Theater Cruise etc., and they did work together with THX on the home theater video specs. Some of this work _should_ be done by the big companies. If Runco makes enough money to be able to support not only the dealer base, but the entire videophile community, all the more praise from me.

If just a few of the bigger companies had the same commitment to not only create quality products, but actually tell the customers WHY they should buy quality products and buy them from reputable dealers who knows how to install them, I (naively, perhaps?) believe the general public would be more aware of how good pictures they should expect from their money. And maybe as a side effect of that, you wouldn't get stuff like "HD Lite", from which we in Europe luckily so far have been spared.

If this business approach will continue after the takeover from Planar, that's a completely different story... Time will tell.

Again Otto, well said. Runco ALONE publishes specs that are likely AFTER a calibration as opposed to publishing a bogus buncha specs that are irrelevant if you intend on calibrating the projector to D65. And despite that relative to the Sony's & JVC's of the world, Runco is a tiny company, they partnered with THX to come up with a set of standards that a DLP projector should adhere to to be called a high-quality projector, and have a half dozen or so such THX-certified models. They are not the enemy, they should be praised for their commitment to quality.

Runco ALONE publishes specs that are likely AFTER a calibration as opposed to publishing a bogus buncha specs that are irrelevant if you intend on calibrating the projector to D65.

I totally agree with that point. I actually started a thread in the big boys forum on standardization of specs, and specifically cited Runco as a model to look to.

I always give props when they're due.

Lets be real. A few facts of life regarding Runco.

A few of the posts are right on the money about Runco. They produce less equipment and have less customers. There is good and bad in that. The good is they have more control of quality on their manufacturing line, they don't produce a run of ten thousand before they discover a flaw and they care about what they are doing.

The down side.

Like building a exotic car, the less you produce, the more it costs. Nobody is ripping anybody off. The product simply costs more to produce.

The great side of this is their main focus is NOT the bottom line. They produce as good of a product as they can without worrying if you can afford it. Lots of people try to compare owning a souped up Honda to owning a Ferrarri. Can it come close? Maybe. But there is no doubt when you are driving a Ferarri, you know it. It is why you buy it. If you can't afford it, you sometimes spend endless hours trying to justify buying something that costs less that you might or might not be able to make perform as well.

I am a custom installer and when I design a theater, install and calibrate a runco 3 chip DLP there is nobody who can say definitively that there is a better picture elswhere. Maybe if you had two theaters next to each other, one with a Runco VX-22, the other with a Sim2 C3X1080 (another favorite), there could be a comparison.
There is nothing wrong with doing as much as you can with what you have, people who have more simply buy more.

So what is better price / performance, at the price point of a Runco VX-22d (around $44K)?

I'm willing to spend about $20K - $50K. I have a 13' diagonal screen in a dedicated light-controlled room, and I want to future-proof for 3D as much as is possible today.

What would the forum members recommend as a better projector for the same money? It's time for my venerable Sony G90 to be replaced.

Thanks for any and all advice, but please don't suggest "the following $7K projector is great." I've seen many of them, and am really looking for something that is a visible step up from there.

So what is better price / performance, at the price point of a Runco VX-22d (around $44K)?

I'm willing to spend about $20K - $50K. I have a 13' diagonal screen in a dedicated light-controlled room, and I want to future-proof for 3D as much as is possible today.

What would the forum members recommend as a better projector for the same money? It's time for my venerable Sony G90 to be replaced.

Thanks for any and all advice, but please don't suggest "the following $7K projector is great." I've seen many of them, and am really looking for something that is a visible step up from there.
You might want to check into the over $20k section, but, I would highly recommend looking into the Sim2 C3X Lumis. Arguably the best thing under $50k (or one of the)...well within your budget.

I could not agree more with Jason's post.

You really need to go to the other forum. Tons of genuine experience of the sort of machine you are looking for.

Your screen size and budget have Lumis written all over them.

In 2001, my local B&M 'high performance theater' store installed my first Runco 7" CRT. I chose that one because it made a great picture and was affordable in the days before any digital was market ready and I couldn't scratch up enough for the 9" with external processor option. REALLY big bucks those days.

Now it is 2010, and I'm spending money again to buy Runco's LED projector.

One reason? Runco and my B&M store (Definitive Audio, Bellevue, WA) team together to give me many thousands of dollars off the retail price of the LED.
You can call that a trade-in if you want because the other service they provide is uninstalling and carting off the unmarketable CRT. I don't have to worry about what happens to it or how to dispose of it.

Over the years, I've had zero trouble from my Runco; service has been limited to occasional professional calibration (I do most of them myself). If I had trouble, I am positive Runco and Definitive would have stood behind the product with minimal trouble for me.

Have I paid more dollars than if I had arranged my own purchase and installation? Almost certainly. I feel, however it is worth it. As Otto points out, partially because I am willing to support the B&M, I have been able to walk in anytime to ask questions of experts, which helps me enjoy my hobby. And, they have been able to afford to keep an ISF expert on staff who can calibrate these CRT's when I request. It would not feel right, for me, to take advantage of the guys at the store to pump them for information then purchase from an internet store, for example.

Runco and Stewart Filmscreen have make many hours of viewing pleasure possible for me, and I anticipate thousands of hours to come. Definitive has made this possible without causing me any trouble, and I feel my checkbook has not been unduly violated.

What else could be important?

Steve

Congrats on your new purchase Steve! The Runco Q750 is a fine machine for sure.

congrats on your new purchase steve! The runco q750 is a fine machine for sure.


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