If a disc exists in a "video" format vs. "vr" format, does that have any bearing on if you can put that disc into an hdd-equipped recorder and be able to high-speed dub it? Aside from that, are there any general guidances that explain why one disc can be high-speed dubbed while another cannot? Does the disc type (+/- r/rw/ram) weigh in on this, as well?

Yes, a VR-mode disc can be high-speed (HS) copied back to the HDD of a Pio 53x/63x or 640, even if the disc is finalized. VR-mode can't be played in other units, so it's real value is in saving things from the HDD in HS for later compilation or editing on the HDD...since it can be copied back at HS with no-loss in quality.

With the Pios, you can initialize -R discs in VR mode manually, and they do that automatically for -RW discs (unless you change that in the Setup menu).

The only other HS copy on the Pios is its Disc Backup feature, but that doesn't put a "permanent" copy on the HDD for editing, etc.

Here's what I am still trying to figure out. I can imagine how a disc starts out in vr-mode while you are recording/editing it...but when it is finalized, doesn't that convert it to video mode (by virtue of becoming read-only, at that point)? ...or is it possible to that a disc can still have a vr-mode, even after finalization? Perhaps, a finalized disc could enable video and vr modes, at the same time (as a result of the 2 directories being present on the disc, if the reader knows where to find them)?

The lack of a finalization stage for dvd-ram and dvd+rw suggests to me that they are natively vr-mode discs? So does that suggest the possibility that I would have similar access to high-speed dub features between dvd-ram and dvd+rw, unlike a dvd-rw which gets finalized to video mode (if you want it to work anywhere else besides the machine it came from)?

DVD-RAM are natively VR-mode and I believe they can be HS dubbed back to a Panny HDD???

Once you intitialize a -R to VR mode, it stays in that mode... no mixing. For Pios, if you want a -RW to be in Video mode, you have to change the default setting since the default is VR mode initialization.

Don't know much about the native mode of +RW discs, but don't think they have any special characteristics that allow them to be HS dubbed to a HDD.

I gather that whether or not a disc is set to video or vr mode relies a lot of how a particular brand of recorder is setup to handle a certain kind of disc plus how settings are on the recorder (i.e, everybody may be doing something different or allow you to do something different than the next guy).

Right now, my curiosities are directed at how this Panasonic ez-17 handles things. The dvd-ram works as you would expect- record what you want, put it in another recorder (a Toshiba, in my case) that features dvd-ram compatibility, and you can edit/delete/playlist/high-speed dub to your heart's content. I imagine it is the inherent vr-mode of this kind of disc that lets me do that.

Now, if I record a dvd-rw in the Panny, I imagine it starts out as a vr-mode disc. However, when it is finalized, the recorder puts a "finalized" menu/directory on the disc (referencing the final state of recorded material accumulated on the disc), which then makes it a video mode disc. If I put it in the Toshiba, the only thing I can access is standard "dvd menu" screen, and it does not allow hs-dubbing (which is kind of a bummer for my uses).

So I wonder if the dvd+rw would allow hs-dubbing when recorded in the Panny and then read by the Toshiba. It starts out in vr-mode and remains in vr-mode (no required finalization stage), just like the dvd-ram. This correlates with what is described in the ez-17 manual. Essentially, all disc types start out in some editable mode (with the exception of dvd-ram and dvd+rw), but are converted to "dvd-v" upon finalization. The dvd-ram and dvd+rw can be recorded and remain in a playable and recordable state even after leaving the machine of origin.

I don't think finalization converts disc mode... it just creates a menu and adds info so the disc can be seen as a ROM disc by any other player/recorder.

According to Wiki:

"Finalizing an optical disc (the term is most frequently applied to DVD recordable media[citation needed]) is the process of writing out support data such as DVD menus, directory data, and the like to an optical disc in order to make it playable on a system other than the one it was recorded on. As a general rule, finalization means that the disc cannot have any more data written to it. It is the last step in the DVD authoring process.

The term is also used as an alternative word for the "closing" of a CD-R, in which Table of Contents data and the like are written out to enable the computer to read a CD. Like DVD finalization, a closed CD-R cannot receive any more data.

Some recording formats, such as DVD+RW VR, do not require finalization before they can be played."

The +VR mode adds an extra directory named video_rm to the disc which contains temporary recording information. If the disc is RW, the recorder also writes up-to-date index in the normal video_ts directory after each new recording, which makes it a video DVD compatible with standard DVD players. The recorder can't do that with R discs because it can only write the final index to the video_ts directory one time, when the disc is finalized. In the meantime the VR format allows it to write updated replacement copies of the temporary recording index in the video_rm directory after each new recording.

I imagine this is what was going on, as well. So is the ability to hs-dub in any way connected to the "video"-ness or "vr"-ness of a disc, or is it just a matter of coincidence (related to entirely different factors).

I imagine this is what was going on, as well. So is the ability to hs-dub in any way connected to the "video"-ness or "vr"-ness of a disc, or is it just a matter of coincidence (related to entirely different factors).

It's a decision of the manufacturer. There is nothing in either mode that limits whether it can be dubbed in high speed.

For example the Toshiba XS series allows HS dubbing of either format to optical media from the HDD or from optical media to the HDD. I have found this particular model of DVD recorder to be the most flexible. For example you can HS dub from optical media to the HDD down to the chapter level of a finalized video mode disc. Meaning you can HS dub just a chapter of a video mode disc back to the HDD. You can also HS dub video mode and VR mode content from optical discs (finalized or unfinalized) to the HDD and merge it, edit it, etc, etc, etc.

Other DVD recorder manufacturers do not offer this type of flexibility. Some to the point of not allowing any dubbing to the HDD - HS or not. Others to the point of only offering real time transfers to optical media. It depends on the brand and model not the mode.

I gather that whether or not a disc is set to video or vr mode relies a lot of how a particular brand of recorder is setup to handle a certain kind of disc plus how settings are on the recorder (i.e, everybody may be doing something different or allow you to do something different than the next guy).

Right now, my curiosities are directed at how this Panasonic ez-17 handles things. The dvd-ram works as you would expect- record what you want, put it in another recorder (a Toshiba, in my case) that features dvd-ram compatibility, and you can edit/delete/playlist/high-speed dub to your heart's content. I imagine it is the inherent vr-mode of this kind of disc that lets me do that.

Now, if I record a dvd-rw in the Panny, I imagine it starts out as a vr-mode disc. However, when it is finalized, the recorder puts a "finalized" menu/directory on the disc (referencing the final state of recorded material accumulated on the disc), which then makes it a video mode disc. If I put it in the Toshiba, the only thing I can access is standard "dvd menu" screen, and it does not allow hs-dubbing (which is kind of a bummer for my uses).

So I wonder if the dvd+rw would allow hs-dubbing when recorded in the Panny and then read by the Toshiba. It starts out in vr-mode and remains in vr-mode (no required finalization stage), just like the dvd-ram. This correlates with what is described in the ez-17 manual. Essentially, all disc types start out in some editable mode (with the exception of dvd-ram and dvd+rw), but are converted to "dvd-v" upon finalization. The dvd-ram and dvd+rw can be recorded and remain in a playable and recordable state even after leaving the machine of origin.

AFAIK, the Panny does not allow VR mode on DVD+RW discs, only DVD-Video. There are some similarities in the way the recorder performs between RW and RAM, but they are very different in format. For example; when you erase part of a RAM disc, you regain the space on the disc. When you erase part of a RW disc, you do not regain that space. There is no "finalizing" on a VR disc, the format is designed this way. DVD-Video format is completely different, and one cannot be "converted" to another in a recorder.

Once a RW disc is finalized, it cannot be recorded to again until it is erased completely. It's also unlikely that an un-finalized disc will be playable in any other recorder, although it could happen.

So, no, RW discs do not start out in VR and wind up as video.

AFAIK, the Panny does not allow VR mode on DVD+RW discs, only DVD-Video. There are some similarities in the way the recorder performs between RW and RAM, but they are very different in format. For example; when you erase part of a RAM disc, you regain the space on the disc. When you erase part of a RW disc, you do not regain that space. There is no "finalizing" on a VR disc, the format is designed this way. DVD-Video format is completely different, and one cannot be "converted" to another in a recorder.

Once a RW disc is finalized, it cannot be recorded to again until it is erased completely. It's also unlikely that an un-finalized disc will be playable in any other recorder, although it could happen.

So, no, RW discs do not start out in VR and wind up as video.I concur. A disk recorded in VR mode (either RAM or -RW) is first formatted as UDF 2.0. UDF is a packet writing driver that allows simulation of track and sector addressing on the continuous spiral track of optical media (except RAM). RAM excels at this because it is the only optical media that is laid out as concentric tracks with hard-coded sectors -- the same as magnetic media, which is why RAM is often referred to as an optical HDD ( a RAM disk can actually be formatted as FAT-32).

Win-XP SP-2 has native UDF 2.0 drivers that allow it to mount and read VR mode disks, but not write. In order to write a UDF 2 disk on a PC you need to install a packet writing driver such as Nero InCD (more trouble than it is worth). As has been noted, a RAM or -RW VR mode disk does not need to be finalized because there is no authoring going on. The data is written as a single file containing the MPEG-2 stream. An info file is included to delineate chapter marks and title separation, but there are no title/chapter menus. Most PC authoring programs handle VR mode disks but few players, other than Panasonic, know what to do with them.

In contrast, a disk recorded in video mode is formatted like a normal video DVD (my utilities identify it as ISO9660). Content is written as 1GB .VOB files, separating the titles by incrementing the numeric tags. The data files for the content are assembled on the disk in the same way they would be during the edit phase on a PC-based authoring program (i.e. VTS_01_xx.VOB, VTS_02_xx.VOB, etc.). The last part of the process is called authoring, what DVDR's refer to as finalizing, and is the construction of title/chapter menus (VIDEO_TS.VOB) and disk layout information files (VIDEO_TS.IFO, .BUP). When a video-mode disk is inserted into a player (or PC-based player software), the format is identified and the player software immediately looks for the VIDEO_TS files. If they're not there, the disk is usually not even mounted and rejected as unformatted. I have never had success in getting my XP SP-2 PC to mount and read an unfinalized video-mode disk. My daughter has Vista Premium on her laptop, next time she is home from college I should see what Vista does with one.

I believe the VR+ format of "plus" media is somewhat different. I never got into using "+" media so I cannot comment on what goes on with VR+ other than to say what I have written above for RAM/-RW may not apply.

Win-XP SP-2 has native UDF 2.0 drivers that allow it to mount and read VR mode disks, but not write. In order to write a UDF 2 disk on a PC you need to install a packet writing driver such as Nero InCD (more trouble than it is worth). As has been noted, a RAM or -RW VR mode disk does not need to be finalized because there is no authoring going on.

The Panasonic RAM driver/utility is the best option for PC based writing and formatting of RAM discs.
I have never had success in getting my XP SP-2 PC to mount and read an unfinalized video-mode disk. My daughter has Vista Premium on her laptop, next time she is home from college I should see what Vista does with one.

I've heard of success using utilities like ISOBuster to recover files, but have never tried it.

The Panasonic RAM driver/utility is the best option for PC based writing and formatting of RAM discs. Oh, barf on that one.
That Panasonic UDF driver lasted for all of about 10 min in my system before I ripped it out. It was poorly written and did not play well at all with the other drivers in my system. I have other Panasonic utilities that came with a Panasonic DVD/RAM burner, which read/write RAM with their own embedded UDF 2 drivers. These work quite well and leave behind no footprints in the OS to screw things up. Unfortunately, they're old and will probably never be updated. Eventually they'll stop working with version "x" of Windows.

I concur. A disk recorded in VR mode (either RAM or -RW) is first formatted as UDF 2.0.

Correct. That's what ISOBuster sees when you use it to recover unfinalized content, and also why many DVD utilities see 2 copies of titles on a VR DVD (they see both the ISO and UDF file systems independently).

Most PC authoring programs handle VR mode disks but few players, other than Panasonic, know what to do with them.
In contrast, a disk recorded in video mode is formatted like a normal video DVD (my utilities identify it as ISO9660). ...


Not quite. RW discs recorded in +VR mode have both a UDF 2 and ISO file system. When inserted in a regular DVD player, it sees only the ISO file system and handles it as a normal video DVD.

+VR RW discs are always ready to play in DVD players without needing to be finalized. "Finalizing" doesn't do much on RW discs except to copy some detailed info about hidden chapters and such to the final ISO title index. You are allowed to un-finalize RW discs and keep on recording.

Not quite. RW discs recorded in +VR mode have both a UDF 2 and ISO file system. When inserted in a regular DVD player, it sees only the ISO file system and handles it as a normal video DVD.

+VR RW discs are always ready to play in DVD players without needing to be finalized. "Finalizing" doesn't do much on RW discs except to copy some detailed info about hidden chapters and such to the final ISO title index. You are allowed to un-finalize RW discs and keep on recording.Thank you, as I noted at the end of my post, I'm not familiar with the particulars of +VR mode disks. Never use them.

Oh, barf on that one.
That Panasonic UDF driver lasted for all of about 10 min in my system before I ripped it out. It was poorly written and did not play well at all with the other drivers in my system. I have other Panasonic utilities that came with a Panasonic DVD/RAM burner, which read/write RAM with their own embedded UDF 2 drivers. These work quite well and leave behind no footprints in the OS to screw things up. Unfortunately, they're old and will probably never be updated. Eventually they'll stop working with version "x" of Windows.

Um, hello? Talking about the same thing. :confused:

Um, hello? Talking about the same thing. :confused:You did say "Panasonic RAM driver". I interpreted that to mean the installable Panasonic UDF 2 driver they supply. That is the bad driver I was referring to.

Thank you, all, for posting input. This stuff makes more sense than what I was attempting to conjure up on my own. ;)

This "dvd-ram driver" would certainly solve my problem, if I knew where to find it. That way I could just record one dvd-ram disc and have it playback-capable on a Windows computer (would a dvd-rom drive be able to read it or does it have to be a dvd-burner device?), and I could edit/hs-dub it on my hdd/dvd recorder.

Right now, I can record a dvd-ram and have access to edit/hs-dubbing, but I cannot take the disc to work with me to play at my leisure on my work computer (it won't mount the disc).

The other alternative is I could record a dvd-rw disc, and it will play on my work computer, but then I lose all edit/hs-dubbing features when I put the disc in my Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder.

I would most like a disc that will allow me to do both. I had in mind that perhaps, dvd+rw would be the answer, but now I don't know, again (naturally, I will be trying this out for myself to really experience "what happens with xyz", but I wanted to hear y'all out first). In my struggle to figure this out, I had thought that the "video" and "vr" mode thing was somehow involved. Now I know there is a "udf" thing involved, as well.

Thank you, all, for posting input. This stuff makes more sense than what I was attempting to conjure up on my own. ;)

This "dvd-ram driver" would certainly solve my problem, if I knew where to find it. That way I could just record one dvd-ram disc and have it playback-capable on a Windows computer (would a dvd-rom drive be able to read it or does it have to be a dvd-burner device?), and I could edit/hs-dub it on my hdd/dvd recorder.

Right now, I can record a dvd-ram and have access to edit/hs-dubbing, but I cannot take the disc to work with me to play at my leisure on my work computer (it won't mount the disc).

The other alternative is I could record a dvd-rw disc, and it will play on my work computer, but then I lose all edit/hs-dubbing features when I put the disc in my Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder.

I would most like a disc that will allow me to do both. I had in mind that perhaps, dvd+rw would be the answer, but now I don't know, again (naturally, I will be trying this out for myself to really experience "what happens with xyz", but I wanted to hear y'all out first). In my struggle to figure this out, I had thought that the "video" and "vr" mode thing was somehow involved. Now I know there is a "udf" thing involved, as well.

Toshiba is a online source for the Panasonic RAM driver. Just be sure to get the correct version for your Windows version.

You must have a drive that can read RAM, and burn RAM if you intend to work with them. LG has several nice ones available for ~$35 at NewEgg.

Most folks find that editing video is a job for the PC, not the recorder. YMMV.

Here's a link to the RAM installer files for Win2000 and WinXP. Do please read the help and readme files.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/1285965-post5.html

Thank you for the links.

I guess my new question is what is it about a dvd-ram disc that makes it unreadable on an ordinary dvd-rom drive? Why can't it trivially be read like any of the other dvd +/- r/rw types?

Thank you for the links.

I guess my new question is what is it about a dvd-ram disc that makes it unreadable on an ordinary dvd-rom drive? Why can't it trivially be read like any of the other dvd +/- r/rw types?

It's a completely different animal. Looking at one will verify that. Sort of an optical version of a hard drive. That said, some DVD-ROM drives can read them, but not many.

I dunno- is a dvd-ram drive really built that different from a "regular" dvd drive? It seems to me that all the different r/rw/+/- types can be considered a "completely different animal", in terms of the physicality of what distinguishes a "data pit". What makes the dvd-ram that much more different?

Is it the difference of following a "spiral" track vs. accessing many "concentric" tracks (just guessing here)? Is it the matter of reading some special ID track not typically available in the traditional data region of the disc (like SACD)?

I don't mean to be pedantic, with these inquiries. It is just sheer curiosity on my part that simply cannot be placated by the "completely different animal" explanation. ;) It just seems to me, that by now, shouldn't all dvd drives of any stature (read only, read and write) just natively read any dvd format under the sun? I know some DO exist. I'm asking why this isn't just a cross the board thing, by now. :)

This "dvd-ram driver" would certainly solve my problem, if I knew where to find it. That way I could just record one dvd-ram disc and have it playback-capable on a Windows computer (would a dvd-rom drive be able to read it or does it have to be a dvd-burner device?), and I could edit/hs-dub it on my hdd/dvd recorder. If you have win XP SP-2, you don't need any additional drivers to read and play a video RAM disk. You do need a RAM capable drive, be it a burner or just a reader. They are not expensive, you can buy a USB external burner for well under $100. This would give you portability to plug the drive into either your home PC or your work PC -- I have a Panasonic one and it has visited my office PC many times.

Aside from that you need player software that will play back a VR mode disk. Windows media player will not. Nero ShowTime will and is what I use.

As far as using a PC to edit the video on a RAM disk. There are any number of authoring programs available that will import the video from a RAM to the PC HDD and allow you to edit it and author/burn a DVD-video disk. TMPGenC DVD Author is a favorite of mine. But, if you want to edit the video directly on the RAM, leaving the video on the RAM -- i.e. cut out the commercials, combine 2 shows onto a single RAM, etc. -- so that you can HS dub the edited video back to the recorder, I think you are out of luck. There is only 1 program I know of and use that can do this -- Panasonic DVDMovie AlbumSE. It is not sold at retail, you can't download it and the only way I got it was because it came with an external Panasonic DVD RAM burner I bought 3 yrs ago. In that time I have looked for a commercial program to do the same and found nothing.

Nero has options for burning a VR mode disk, but I have never been able to HS dub anything from Nero back onto my E-85.

Womble's Mpeg2Vcr works fine for editing VRO files. It's been a while but I remember having no real problems.

I thought I found a downloadable version of DVD Movie AlbumSE once, but it required the Japanese version of Windows, so I'm not sure. The version I got with my Pannasonic drive is very touchy, and I find it best to not have any other software running at the same time, especially if it might read/write the RAM.

There is something called B's Recorder Gold 8 DVD (http://www.bhacorp.com/products/gold8/gold8_dvd.html) that might fit the bill.

Thank you all for the suggestions on the best ways to handle dvd-ram on a PC. Frankly, I cannot imagine buying extra stuff and hunting down special software just to do what I want to do. I am quite happy with doing my editing on my Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder. I was only looking to do playback on a PC- that's all I needed. If I was to hardware-up to do dvd editing (or even lug around an external drive for playback) that is getting far past the scope of what I originally intended to do (simply playback). I guess it underscores my frustration on why does dvd-ram open the door to such gyrations just to get it to work (unlike other dvd disc formats). It seems like a capable enough media. It's just not pervasively supported, unfortunately. Hence, goes my exploration on sticking with the more "standardized" dvd disc formats and achieving hs-dubbing. ;)

I realize all of your input comes from a positive place, of course.

LG computer DVD drives support DVD-RAM format, although you have to download a special driver from the LG web site since it's not supported in Windows by default. But you're probably right to stick with standard +/- R/RW discs if you can.

Looks like my little experiment has run aground. My Toshiba really didn't like being fed a dvd+rw disc, so that option is out for me as the "universal disc" option. I guess it was born to remain in the -r/rw and -ram domain.

My computer at work did read the dvd+rw, though, so it is still a viable solution for playback-only use. I'll have to do a 2nd test to see if it can still read it w/o having to perform a "create top menu" operation. If not, then it really is not much better than a dvd-rw, if some sort of "finalization" operation is mandatory (even if they don't call it "finalization"). ;) I suppose it would really demonstrate its value for users in scenarios where "multi-session" style use is frequent. That way you can "open" and "close" the session (by updating the top menu), at will, whenever you add new material, w/o having to nuke whatever was on there prior.